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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. You know a thing

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Speaker 1: about swamps is that they reclaim everything. It doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: if it's a plant or an animal, in case we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about today a human. I was born and

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Speaker 1: raised in Louisiana. I've been around swamps my entire life.

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Speaker 1: I started out my career as a medical evil death

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Speaker 1: investigator in New Orleans. And just when you think you've

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Speaker 1: seen it all, you never know what's going to show up.

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Speaker 1: Day We've found Brian Laundry. I'm Joe Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this is body Backs back with me again today is

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Speaker 1: my friend Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Jackie, have you ever seen anything like this?

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Speaker 1: They have Brian Laundry. What do we know up to

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Speaker 1: this point? Well, Joe, we know the remains found in

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Speaker 1: the Carlton Reserve do belong to fugitive Brian Laundry. The

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Speaker 1: FBI made that announcement today. This all began when Chris

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Speaker 1: and ROBERTA. Laundry, Brian's parents, headed to Carlton Reserve to

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Speaker 1: search for their son. About thirty minutes into their search,

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Speaker 1: they came upon a white dry bag and a backpack

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Speaker 1: that contained items that reportedly belonged to Brian laundry. As

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Speaker 1: they turned those articles over to law enforcement. As they

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Speaker 1: turned those articles over to law enforcement, they were informed

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Speaker 1: that partial remains had been found. Jackie, I gotta tell you,

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Speaker 1: one of the most striking things about this whole case

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Speaker 1: is that the parents were out there. I don't know

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Speaker 1: that I ever recall a case where, you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: I've had cases in the past where the the family

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Speaker 1: actually found a person, but the dad walks up on

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Speaker 1: all of these so called items, And that's something I

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Speaker 1: want to address. That term items items can be defined

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Speaker 1: very very broadly. And as soon as I heard the

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Speaker 1: term item, it was quickly followed thereafter by saying the

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Speaker 1: medical examiner was on the way, and then the van

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Speaker 1: rolled up. Let me tell you some about medical examiners

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Speaker 1: and corners. Medical examiners and corners do not, and I repeat,

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Speaker 1: do not show up at a scene unless they are

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Speaker 1: specifically invited. And let me tell you why. They serve

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Speaker 1: no purpose out there unless there is a body. So

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Speaker 1: that means that these items that they found, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's kind of a broad way of saying that

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Speaker 1: not only had they found the backpack and the waterproof bag,

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Speaker 1: but they had also found at least part of a body.

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Speaker 1: Now we don't know how much because their own it

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Speaker 1: came out that it's partial remain. That means that it's incomplete.

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Speaker 1: But you know, with the m out there, the first

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Speaker 1: thing we saw occurred as soon as they showed up.

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Speaker 1: They started throwing this tent up out there. And at first,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot of folks were looking

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Speaker 1: at this thinking, no, hell, you know what, maybe the

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Speaker 1: tent is on top of where the body was. No,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't. It wasn't. That was like a control area

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Speaker 1: where they could bring these items back to an examine them,

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Speaker 1: because you could see tables in there. Trust me, you're

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Speaker 1: not going to put tables on top of a deceased person.

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Speaker 1: You're just not going to do that. So they were

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Speaker 1: actually leaving the tent and going out to the exact

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Speaker 1: location where the body was found. Now, this is a problem,

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Speaker 1: it's a major problem because they say partial human remain.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean. Well, they're seeing something out there

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Speaker 1: that is indicative of the fact that this body has

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Speaker 1: become somehow. And I'm going to throw a word out

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Speaker 1: here that some of you may not have heard. The

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Speaker 1: body might be disarticulated. And when bodies begin to decompose,

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Speaker 1: they actually become much easier, essentially at the joints, to

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Speaker 1: pull apart. That's why when scavengers show up, you know,

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Speaker 1: like dogs and possums and raccoons and this sort of

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Speaker 1: thing codes, they can literally grab hold of an ankle

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Speaker 1: and begin to tug, and that leg at the knee

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Speaker 1: will actually become disarticulated. Sometimes the foot becomes disarticulated, the arms,

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Speaker 1: so forth and so on. And that's problem in that

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Speaker 1: these remains could very well be scattered. Now, any number

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Speaker 1: of times I've been out on scenes where you walk

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Speaker 1: up and there is the core of the body, if

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Speaker 1: you will, that's a real popular term nowadays. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to work on my core. But think about your chest

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Speaker 1: and your aptom and that central part. It's called the axilla,

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Speaker 1: the axilla skeleton that is where your spine is, your

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Speaker 1: rib cage, pell this these sorts of things. Sometimes I

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Speaker 1: will main intact, but the limbs, the feet, the hands,

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Speaker 1: the humorous you know, these longer bones, sometimes they're gone.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes they're still intact, but there'll be scattered. There will

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Speaker 1: be scattered about, and if this is scavenger activity, generally

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Speaker 1: animals don't go too far away with it. It's interesting

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Speaker 1: that you say that, Joe, because what was found in

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Speaker 1: the Carlton Reserve or skeletal remains bones? What does that

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Speaker 1: tell you? Yeah, well that doesn't surprise me at all,

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Speaker 1: because you know why you have skeletal remains. I know

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Speaker 1: a lot of people are gonna think. You know, I've

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Speaker 1: heard people talk about alligators. I've heard people talk about

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Speaker 1: other things. Let me tell you why this is basic biology.

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Speaker 1: That area is so hot, it is so human, so

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Speaker 1: very wet, that the tissue that's rest on our bones

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Speaker 1: in life, as you begin to decompose, it has a

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Speaker 1: process that it goes through and it's environ It's what

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Speaker 1: we call environmentally dependent. So the rate at which a

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Speaker 1: body actually decomposes is dictated by environmental conditions and in

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Speaker 1: this case, specifically heat. You think about any experiment that

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Speaker 1: you conducted when you were a kid in school. It

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Speaker 1: all started with heat, didn't It had a bunch and burner,

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Speaker 1: alcohol burner. You had to fire that thing up, and

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Speaker 1: you know, it speeds this process up. So the hotter

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Speaker 1: things are, the body begins to come apart. So what

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Speaker 1: that tells me is that they're dealing with skeletal remains

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Speaker 1: and they don't have a complete skeleton. When they talk

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Speaker 1: about partial remains, is that a quantitative phrase at all?

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Speaker 1: I mean, are we talking about if you had a hand,

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Speaker 1: a finger as opposed to ninety percent of a body,

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Speaker 1: no matter what it is, is still going to be

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Speaker 1: called partial remains. I think that that's an excellent question,

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Speaker 1: and I'm glad you asked that because I think that

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Speaker 1: if they're saying partial remains, it's not simply going to

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Speaker 1: be that maybe one hand has been compromised, or maybe

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Speaker 1: you're missing the foot up to the ankle. Now that's

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Speaker 1: not what we're talking about. They're talking about that there

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Speaker 1: is a significant portion of this body that is absent

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Speaker 1: from the central portion that they have recovered. And again

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Speaker 1: I go back to spine, ribs, pelvis, perhaps a skull.

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Speaker 1: You folks might be surprised to learn that many times

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Speaker 1: a skull is hard to recover because if animals do

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Speaker 1: come along, particularly dogs, dogs love skulls. I've had any

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Speaker 1: number of cases over my career where dogs have drug

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Speaker 1: skulls up into the backyards of folks. Can you imagine

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Speaker 1: walking down in your backyard and your dog is out

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Speaker 1: there playing with a human skull. It's happened. It's happening

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Speaker 1: a number of times. And so that in and of

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Speaker 1: itself is troubling because if you think that you're dealing

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Speaker 1: with an incomplete set of remains, all kinds of other

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Speaker 1: problems begin to arise from that because you can't you

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Speaker 1: cannot evaluate the body or the skeletonized remains in their totality.

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Speaker 1: And that's what we do in forensic pathology and medical

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Speaker 1: legal death investigation. We look at the body in its totality.

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Speaker 1: That is, all systems are impacted, all systems are affected,

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Speaker 1: and it begins to paint the picture. They have brin laundry,

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Speaker 1: at least part of a body. You know, when that

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Speaker 1: first came up in the news, an area where the

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Speaker 1: police had intensely been searching for a protracted period of time.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about weeks and days, hours and hours of

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Speaker 1: man time that have been spent out in this marsh.

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Speaker 1: I want to continue to discuss, you know, how how

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Speaker 1: exactly do you go about examining a skeleton versus say,

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Speaker 1: a partially intact body. And when I say partially intact.

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Speaker 1: Just understand this. What I'm what I mean is that

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Speaker 1: we're talking about soft tissue. I'm talking about skin, I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about muscle, I'm talking about the organs, all right.

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Speaker 1: And if you have a totally skeletonized body, then that

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Speaker 1: creates a myriad of problems because you don't have points

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Speaker 1: of reference, all points of reference relative to things like well,

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Speaker 1: I'll give you a good one, hemorrhage. Let's say somebody

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Speaker 1: has has sustained an injury to their neck. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I'm just speculating here. Let's say that they've been choked

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Speaker 1: in some way, maybe you know, throttled like we remember

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Speaker 1: with Gabby, or they've had a ligature around their neck.

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Speaker 1: Guess what, if body skeletonized, there's not gonna be the

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Speaker 1: evidence of that. You're not going to see hemorrhage in

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Speaker 1: that particular case. And so it makes makes a real

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Speaker 1: daunting challenge for the forensic pathologists that is going to

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Speaker 1: begin to examine this body and try to determine exactly

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Speaker 1: what brought about the cause of death. Okay, wait a minute, Joe,

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Speaker 1: you're talking about the cause of death right there. How

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Speaker 1: is this difference between whether it's bones or soft tissue.

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Speaker 1: How is that going to play into the identification of

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Speaker 1: the body. Well, you know, that's that's a good point,

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Speaker 1: because let's just say that you do have a body

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Speaker 1: that is partially decomposed. And we do know this. We

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Speaker 1: do know that Brian Laundry had some tattoos on his body. Now,

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Speaker 1: something that our listeners might not understand is that as

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Speaker 1: skin begins to deteriorate, it takes on this kind of

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Speaker 1: tanned appearance. It almost has the appearance of leather in

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Speaker 1: many in many circumstances, and that's right on target. And

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you why, because the skin becomes dehydrated, but

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Speaker 1: it also gets kind of murky. It's hard to appreciate

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Speaker 1: special features with tattoos. Specifically, we do something that's called

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Speaker 1: skin scraping at autopsy, where we actually take the leting

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Speaker 1: edge of a scalpel blade and we don't slice. We

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Speaker 1: actually kind of scrape down the surface of the skin

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Speaker 1: and knock off that top layer of epidermist that has

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Speaker 1: begun to deteriorate and decompose, and down at the dermist,

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Speaker 1: down at the dermal level, you actually begin to appreciate

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Speaker 1: once again the manifest image of a tattoo that's beneath

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Speaker 1: that is that amazing and you can photographic and it

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Speaker 1: can be used as a specific identifier. So that's the

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Speaker 1: difference between having skin tissue on the body as opposed

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Speaker 1: to having a skeletonized body. And again, you know you're

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Speaker 1: not going to have signs of him or anywhere if

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Speaker 1: the body is absent the tissue to appreciate it. All

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Speaker 1: you're left with are these kind of bony prominences and

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Speaker 1: skeletal features that are left behind. Now you know, with

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Speaker 1: a skeleton itself, you know what kind of trauma could

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Speaker 1: we be looking at. Well, we could if there's a

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Speaker 1: depressed skull fracture. If you do in fact have a skull,

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Speaker 1: remember we're talking about they're saying partial remain. If you

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Speaker 1: do have a skull, you can look for things like defects.

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Speaker 1: And defects is again another one ten dollar words that

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Speaker 1: doctors like to use, and it means whole. It means

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Speaker 1: something that's not supposed to be there, all right, So

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Speaker 1: you can have a defect in the skull that might

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Speaker 1: be indicative is say, for instance, a gunshot woman or

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Speaker 1: maybe someone has taken a blunt instrument and driven it

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Speaker 1: into the skull, and that creates as what's referred to

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Speaker 1: as a depressed skull fracture. Now you can have evidence

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Speaker 1: of that, and you can kind of, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, you can kind of evaluate that in its

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Speaker 1: context and say, Okay, I think within a reasonable certainty

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Speaker 1: that this very well might be what brought about the

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Speaker 1: cause of death. But again you're not going to have

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Speaker 1: the associated hemorrhage with it. And here's the question, here's

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Speaker 1: the big question. Did the injuries that you're seeing on

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Speaker 1: that skeleton did they occur anti mortem, which means before death,

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Speaker 1: or did they occur post mortem? Because all kinds of

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Speaker 1: things can happen to a body after it's been out there,

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Speaker 1: particularly for this long animal activity. Whether I've actually had

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Speaker 1: cases where branches have fallen off of trees and crushed

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Speaker 1: underlying deceased persons that were decomposing. So you have to

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Speaker 1: factor in all of these elements. And that's what makes

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Speaker 1: this so complicated. You know, we begin to think about

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Speaker 1: poor little Gabby that was found out there in the tetons.

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Speaker 1: Her body, as horrible as this was, her body is

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Speaker 1: going to have been relatively intact compared to what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about right now, because that environment out in Titons

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Speaker 1: as wild and rugged as it is, as you know,

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Speaker 1: all the predators everybody was talking about and ain't got

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Speaker 1: nothing on South Florida swamp because it's not just the animals,

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Speaker 1: it is the weather and that is the biggest fight,

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Speaker 1: the environmental conditions, and it can compromise any evaluation that's

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Speaker 1: going to go forward. Relative to the forensic cathologist and

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Speaker 1: the one other person I haven't mentioned, and that's the

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Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist, because trust me, they will have an individual

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Speaker 1: out there that specializes in the examination of human skeletal remains.

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Speaker 1: They're going to be out there and you know, folks

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Speaker 1: will say, well, why do you need an anthropologist at

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Speaker 1: the scene. I thought they were only in the lab.

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Speaker 1: Look being in a lab as a forensic anthropologist is

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Speaker 1: only part of the job. And talking about the conditions

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Speaker 1: they're in the swamp. What is that going to mean

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Speaker 1: for the possibility of finding any of the remains. We

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Speaker 1: know the medical examiner was there the day that the

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Speaker 1: remains were found, back again the next day. We know

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Speaker 1: that they're looking for more remains. Given what you just describe,

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Speaker 1: what's the possibility. There's a good possibility because if the

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Speaker 1: remains are scattered and this happens as a result of

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Speaker 1: scavenger activity, which I would probably suspect, they're going to

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Speaker 1: be out in kind of a perimeter around the body.

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Speaker 1: You know. I always use the analogy of a wagon

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Speaker 1: wheel with a hub and the spokes going out. Just

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Speaker 1: imagine that with the body there, and these scavengers walk

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Speaker 1: out with these remains. They don't carry them very far

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Speaker 1: because most of the animals that would scavenge a body

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Speaker 1: have burrows nearby, so they'll try to carry them back

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Speaker 1: to their burrows, or they're drop them right outside of it. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is what you're going to see. More than likely,

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Speaker 1: they would probably bring a cadaver dog back out there,

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Speaker 1: So don't be shocked if you see that on the news.

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Speaker 1: There bring a cadaver dog back out there, and they

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Speaker 1: will go back to that central location where the primary

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Speaker 1: portion of those remains were found, and they will kind

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Speaker 1: of go out in a radiating pattern from that central

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Speaker 1: point and continue to work those dogs out to look

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Speaker 1: for anything. And I'm talking about even the smallest bones

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Speaker 1: of the hand. Those dogs have the ability to pick

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Speaker 1: up on that and they'll pick up on a scent. Now, look,

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Speaker 1: come on, let's face it, there's no way and God's

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Speaker 1: green earth. They're going to recover every single bit of

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Speaker 1: these remains, particularly if animals have been at it, because

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Speaker 1: some things they'll just vanished, and it'll be quite blunt

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Speaker 1: with you. Some of these are actually consumed by these animals,

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Speaker 1: so you're not going to get the full picture. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So then at what point do they say enough is

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Speaker 1: enough and stop the search? You know, there's only so

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Speaker 1: far that you can go working these animals and also

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Speaker 1: working the personnel that you have out there. They'll break

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Speaker 1: off into teams and again radiating out. They'll walk off,

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Speaker 1: generally in two pair, and they'll begin to kind of

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Speaker 1: go shoulders shoulder and walk in straight lines where they

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Speaker 1: begin to search the soil. And they'll be very very careful,

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Speaker 1: very careful, because you're getting into a season now where

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Speaker 1: you're losing some leaves on those trees down there. Things

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Speaker 1: could be covered up, so they'll have to turn over

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Speaker 1: objects on the ground to see if there's anything beneath them,

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Speaker 1: and they don't automatically pick it up. What they do

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Speaker 1: is they flag it. They'll put a little orange flag

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Speaker 1: right next to it, and then the photographer will come out,

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Speaker 1: they'll take photographs of it, and you know what else

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Speaker 1: they're going to do. They'll measure it. They'll actually go

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Speaker 1: back to that central location where the body was initially

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Speaker 1: found and they'll take a tape measure and they'll go

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Speaker 1: out and they will measure the distance from that actual

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Speaker 1: central location out to where that remain is found. And

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day you can actually take

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Speaker 1: this and plot it on the computer and give you

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Speaker 1: an idea of how far out these remains are distributed.

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Speaker 1: You're not going to recover everything. That's that's almost an

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Speaker 1: empirical impossibility, you know, unless something odd has happened where

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Speaker 1: you're talking about a dismembered body, which I don't think

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Speaker 1: that we're dealing with right here. You're dealing with a

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Speaker 1: body that has been subject to the environment which it

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Speaker 1: has been found. So back to the skeleton versus partial remains.

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Speaker 1: If you don't have soft tissue to pull DNA from,

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Speaker 1: if you only have bone, and if it's been out

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Speaker 1: in the elements for a while and animals have been

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Speaker 1: able to get to it, more than likely there will

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Speaker 1: not be any bone marrow left. Am I correct? And

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Speaker 1: can you still get DNA? Yeah, of course you can.

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Speaker 1: You can still get DNA, and yeah you can. You

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Speaker 1: can bore down into the bones and recover DNA many

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Speaker 1: times if there's still viable marrow. You said, you said

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Speaker 1: a lot. Not all of these bones are going to

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Speaker 1: be compromise, Jackie, not every single one of them. Some

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Speaker 1: almis still be intact, so you're not going to have

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Speaker 1: the DNA that is completely compromised that's out there still

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Speaker 1: containing the bones. And one thing we're forgetting about. One

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Speaker 1: of the most viable sources of DNA are going to

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Speaker 1: be the teeth. And there's dentition in dwelling and what

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Speaker 1: that means or the teeth are still present. It's fancy

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Speaker 1: talk that doctors use if the dentition is still present,

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Speaker 1: and that's the way they phrase that. If the teeth

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Speaker 1: are still present, they can actually extract one of the teeth.

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Speaker 1: Generally it's going to be a mole or something that's

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Speaker 1: kind of robust, and they will bore down into it.

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Speaker 1: When they have these little tiny drills that they go

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Speaker 1: into the tooth, and you know, the tooth has multiple

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Speaker 1: layers anatomically, the way it's set up. What you want

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Speaker 1: to get down to is the pulp of the tooth,

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Speaker 1: and they're in. They're in. That pulp is actually contained

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Speaker 1: the DNA. And I've described it many times. Bones are

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Speaker 1: kind of like a leather briefcase that you store information in.

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Speaker 1: A tooth is almost like a titanium briefcase that store

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Speaker 1: information in. They're very resilient. You can go back to

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Speaker 1: the to the Egyptians and still find teeth there that

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Speaker 1: we're mummified. So it's a valuable source. And one of

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Speaker 1: the thing you know, I kind of wanted to point

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Speaker 1: out many times, and these skeletal remains, you will still

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Speaker 1: find actual hair attached to the skull. Again, if in

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Speaker 1: fact it is there, and sometimes it's not necessarily on

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Speaker 1: the scalp, it's underlying a skull on the ground in

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Speaker 1: the dirt, so you have to be very careful when

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Speaker 1: you recover it. But you can certainly get partial DNA,

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Speaker 1: maybe from a hair chaft, but you can go in

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Speaker 1: if there is a root, a viable root that's still there,

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00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:38,880
Speaker 1: maybe you can go in there and collect it. They're

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Speaker 1: gonna look, they're gonna put a full court press on this.

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Speaker 1: I can tell you where they're not going to get DNA.

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Speaker 1: They're not going to get it from blood because it's

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Speaker 1: not going to be available. I mean, that's that's logic.

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Speaker 1: And all the soft tissues you point it out, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: soft tissue is gone. You're not going to go into muscle.

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Speaker 1: You're not going to go into the muscle to glean

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Speaker 1: to glean any kind of DNA sample because more than

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Speaker 1: likely it's not there. No soft tissue is there. I

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Speaker 1: really want to continue this conversation regarding what are the

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Speaker 1: next steps, you know, relative to this partial skelet will

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Speaker 1: remain that's been found. What are we looking at relative

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Speaker 1: to all of this? What are we looking at Joe?

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Speaker 1: Because we do now know that the remains found in

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Speaker 1: the Carlton Reserve belong to Brian Laundry. They used a

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Speaker 1: dental comparison between the skull that was recovered and dental

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Speaker 1: records of Brian Laundry to confirm identity. Now we just

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Speaker 1: need to find out why he died. Because of death,

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Speaker 1: It's going to be the big question. That's what everybody's

359
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 1: be scratching their head over, and they're going to be

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Speaker 1: turning these scientists and asking that question. There will be

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Speaker 1: some really hard questions asking folks that aren't used to

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Speaker 1: asking these kind of questions, or they're going to get

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Speaker 1: an education, because I got to tell you, if you

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Speaker 1: have nothing and I'm talking about tissue sample to base

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Speaker 1: these findings on, you're going to be really hard because

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Speaker 1: right now it's going to be very, very difficult to

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Speaker 1: make this determination. If you're talking about bone, you are

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Speaker 1: you are reliant upon the hope that you're going to

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Speaker 1: be able to find some kind of trauma to the

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Speaker 1: bone that is prior to death, anti mortem, that is

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Speaker 1: gunshot wounds, knife wounds, those sorts of things that might

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Speaker 1: leave marks on the bone that are going to point

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Speaker 1: back to a specific, specific direction. And you know, the

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Speaker 1: skull in my opinion, and my opinion is the key

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Speaker 1: to all of this, because let's face it, most people

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Speaker 1: that die, particularly young people that die in sudden events

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Speaker 1: like this, many times the head and the neck are involved.

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Speaker 1: So that's important. If you don't have tissue surrounding that area,

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Speaker 1: then you're relying on the bony underlying surfaces. Well, what

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Speaker 1: are we looking for. We're looking for gunshot once, we're

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Speaker 1: looking for fractured skulls or fractured necks to give us

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Speaker 1: some kind of indication. And I know folks are going

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Speaker 1: to ask this question. It seems like it always keeps

384
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: cropping up in this bizarre set of circumstances. What about

385
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Speaker 1: the highoid? What about the highoid? You know what, I

386
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Speaker 1: don't know that in my entire career, I ever came

387
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: across a set of skeletal remains where highoid was actually recovered.

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Speaker 1: You know why, because the sky the highoid. You know why,

389
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Speaker 1: because the highoid is actually surrounded by soft tissue. I

390
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Speaker 1: go back to what I've said before, it's only non

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Speaker 1: articulated bone in the body. So if scavengers get to

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Speaker 1: the area in the neck, when they you know, they

393
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,360
Speaker 1: take the throat out, for instance, they're going to haul

394
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: that highoid off with them. It vanishes, It disappears years.

395
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: It's a very fragile puncer. You're not even going to

396
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 1: have an opportunity to examine it. And that's just possibility.

397
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Speaker 1: For all. I know, it's sitting there. But if I

398
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Speaker 1: were a betting man, I'd say that it probably isn't,

399
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 1: particularly given this harsh environment that they're out there in.

400
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,719
Speaker 1: Talking about circumstantial evidence, another big piece through this is

401
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 1: There are a lot of cases out there where people

402
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: come across bodies in the woods, and it's quite chilling

403
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 1: when you think about it. Can you imagine coming upon

404
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Speaker 1: a skeleton or skeletonized remains and looking down adjacent to

405
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: the body laying on the ground, there is a rusty handgun.

406
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,919
Speaker 1: And many times people will go out into the woods

407
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 1: and they'll take their lives, and that weapon is laying there. Now,

408
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 1: that would be maybe one of the grandest pieces of

409
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 1: evidence that you could find from a circumstantial perspective that

410
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: you could actually have a forensic tie back with that weapon,

411
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: because it'll have a serial number on it, could ide

412
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 1: who possess that weapon, where the individual would have acquired

413
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 1: that weapon from. And you also begin to look for

414
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: evidence that the weapon has been fired. If it's a

415
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 1: semi automatic pistol, how many rounds are still existent in

416
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: the magazine? Is there a live round still in the chamber?

417
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: Is there an ejected shell case in laying around there.

418
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 1: I got to tell you one of the things that

419
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: that FBI Evidence Response team is doing out there, in

420
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: addition to looking for skeletal remains, there's somebody right now

421
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,239
Speaker 1: that is absolutely sweating to death. I can guarantee you

422
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: walking through those woods and they've got a set of

423
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 1: headphones on, and they have got a metal detector walking

424
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: before them or moving before them, sweeping and forth and

425
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 1: back and forth, waiting for any kind of little hit

426
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: on a metallic body that might be adjacent to that

427
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: body that will tie back to perhaps giving you answers

428
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: from a circumstantial perspective. Of course, So if we can't

429
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: use what you can physically see on bones or soft

430
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: tissue as in a bullet wound or ligature marks, what

431
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: about the talk screens? You talk about hot screens a lot. Now,

432
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: how much do you have to have to get a

433
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: tox screen? Do you have to have blood? Can you

434
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 1: get it from the tissue? What? Yeah, well that's that's

435
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: the million dollar question. I'll go ahead and reveal you

436
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 1: a little inside secret here. And typically if we don't

437
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: have blood or vitreous which is the fluid and the eye,

438
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: or urine with decomposed bodies, many times you know, they'll

439
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: take the liver. They'll take a sample of the liver

440
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: and put it in a centrifuge, which is one of

441
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 1: these devices that spins around and liquefies things. And they

442
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: liquefy it down to the point where they can draw

443
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: it up and they'll run a tox screen on it. Remember,

444
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: the liver is one of the most toxic organs in

445
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: a body. It's like a gigantic filter, so it retains

446
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. But in this case, Jackie, they're

447
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: talking about skeletal remains, so you're not gonna be able

448
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: to turn to that. So that leaves us with what's

449
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 1: remaining the circumstantial evidence. You know, if if if this is, say,

450
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: for instance, a drug od all right, then maybe there'll

451
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 1: be a pill vial thereby, maybe there'll be a hypodermic

452
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: needle that's still existent there that you could take a

453
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 1: look at and kind of ascertain now that this is

454
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: something that was utilized to bring about an individual's death.

455
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: And of course you're going to have to backtrack with this.

456
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: You know, if you've got a pill, vill you have

457
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: to go back and talk to the doctor that prescribed it.

458
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 1: If it's some kind of elicit drug, good luck with that. Now,

459
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: if the syringe is there, you can actually analyze it

460
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: syringe Sometimes they're kind of protective of the content. Maybe

461
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: you can get a you know, some semblance of something

462
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: that's contained therein and I'm thinking, of course, the first

463
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: thing comes to mind is heroin, but I don't know

464
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 1: of any involvement with that. And then other circumstantial evidence

465
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: that we look for for causal factors, particularly someone that's

466
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: out alone in the woods like this. One of the

467
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: things I'd be looking for is perhaps a length of

468
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 1: rope tied to a tree. You say, well, why would

469
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: you say that? Well, here's why, because many times, and

470
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: I want you to listen very very carefully what I'm

471
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: about to say, because most people can't believe this actually happens.

472
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 1: Do you know that many times people will hang themselves

473
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: in trees and they're not found for a protracted period

474
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: of time. Guess what happens to the body. The body,

475
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 1: by virtue of gravity, remember gravity's constant force in our world.

476
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: Gravity pulls on that body that's hanging from that noose.

477
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: And guess what happens. The head literally comes off, It

478
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: comes off, and the body crashes to the ground below

479
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: the noose. And so that automatically gives you a circumstance where, say,

480
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: for instance, a disarticulated head can be taken off by scavenger.

481
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: The rest of the body can be scavenged. And if

482
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: the investigators are not looking up, if they're only looking down,

483
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: and that's a piece of evidence that they could potentially miss.

484
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: So are you telling me then that if it is

485
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: only skeletal remains, that it's not possible to do a

486
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: tox screen. Yeah, if it is only skeletal remains, it would.

487
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: I cannot imagine any circumstance where you would be able

488
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: to draw up any kind of viable sample for toxicological analysis.

489
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: I just I don't see how that would be possible,

490
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: because there's not going to be any evidence unless it's

491
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: some kind of Unless it's some kind of peripheral test

492
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: that someone else is aware of, and I am not

493
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: on bone, You're not going to be able to find

494
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: any evidence of those. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this

495
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: is bodybacks