Speaker 1: The MTV Video Music Awards were launched in nineteen eighty four.
Speaker 2: MTV presents Dead Waiting, Rock and Rolling ba again of
Speaker 2: the last three thousand years the MTV.
Speaker 1: Music It was meant to be ironic, a way to
Speaker 1: poke fun at the seriousness of traditional award shows, but
Speaker 1: the new music channel for teens was popular and big
Speaker 1: stars showed up this lad story. Nick Jagger also there
Speaker 1: a relatively unknown twenty six year old Madonna, in one
Speaker 1: of her first performances on television, there to sing an
Speaker 1: unreleased song like a Virgin. She stood atop a seventeen
Speaker 1: foot wedding cake, dressed like a bride but wearing a
Speaker 1: belt buckle emblazoned with the words boy toy. When she
Speaker 1: got to the bottom of the cake, she dropped to
Speaker 1: the ground, crawling and rolling around, simulating sex and revealing
Speaker 1: her lingerie and a little bit of her butt. The
Speaker 1: audience and the world aghast at the sheer audacity of it.
Speaker 3: Madonna so outraged everyone in that room that her manager said,
Speaker 3: your career is done.
Speaker 1: But far from ending her ascent to the top of
Speaker 1: the charts, that performance would change Madonna's career and life forever,
Speaker 1: transforming her from pop newcomer to superstar.
Speaker 4: I'm Susie Bannacaram and I'm Jessica Bennett.
Speaker 1: And this is in Retrospect, where each week we revisit
Speaker 1: a cultural moment from the past that shaped us and.
Speaker 4: That we just can't stop thinking about.
Speaker 1: Today, we're talking about one of Madonna's iconic early performances,
Speaker 1: one that was so scandalous many predicted it would end
Speaker 1: her career. But we're also talking about the rise of
Speaker 1: MTV and how together MTV and Madonna became a force
Speaker 1: that would define eighties pop culture.
Speaker 5: This is part one, Susie, I don't remember this moment
Speaker 5: from real time, but I of course from watching clips
Speaker 5: of it or seeing clips of it over and over
Speaker 5: and over again because I was such a Madonna fan.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but there are so many Madonna moments, so why
Speaker 4: this one?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you would have been really young, so
Speaker 1: it doesn't surprise me that you didn't see this in
Speaker 1: real time. I'm a little older than you, so I
Speaker 1: do remember it when it happened. But also I've just
Speaker 1: always loved Madonna and I loved MTV. Like early MTV
Speaker 1: is hard to describe to people who are used to
Speaker 1: current MTV. But MTV was so fun and it felt
Speaker 1: so free, and it was a way to discover music
Speaker 1: and artists. So this moment felt like a good way
Speaker 1: to talk about two things that were really big cultural
Speaker 1: influences on me. And Madonna herself is just amazing. I
Speaker 1: was just like this huge fan I dressed liked her,
Speaker 1: I loved the music, and I don't know if it
Speaker 1: was conscious at the time because I was still pretty little,
Speaker 1: but she sort of represented what it meant to be free, right,
Speaker 1: Like what it was like to be cool and to
Speaker 1: do whatever you wanted and to not listen to other
Speaker 1: people Like it felt very liberating to me to love her,
Speaker 1: and so I was thinking, I really want to do
Speaker 1: a Madonna episode. But you can't do all of Madonna,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like you said, such a
Speaker 1: prolific career. There have been so many chapters, and her
Speaker 1: influence is so broad. So I was like, what could
Speaker 1: I do that could just encapsulate one period or one
Speaker 1: moment in her time? And this felt like a good
Speaker 1: example of that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's really hard to explain to someone growing
Speaker 5: up today how cool MTV was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was really cool.
Speaker 5: Even now, occasionally there's like weird channels or I'll find
Speaker 5: them on Hulu that are playing just old MTV music
Speaker 5: videos and I'm like, oh my god, oh my god,
Speaker 5: and i feel like I'm thirteen again, because that was
Speaker 5: how we got culture, I guess, and it was like,
Speaker 5: I don't know what felt transgressive, and I just remember
Speaker 5: going over to friends houses who had k and just
Speaker 5: clapping down on the couch and sitting there for hours
Speaker 5: and hours and hours, absolutely glued to the television, wanting
Speaker 5: to memorize every little detail of every video and every song.
Speaker 4: The big number one last week Salt and Pepper and
Speaker 4: Bog Water Man. Yep, and we've got two hours of
Speaker 4: the hottest videos in the country.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I think another thing that's important to
Speaker 1: note is that we didn't have YouTube, We didn't have
Speaker 1: access to video on demand. So getting to see your
Speaker 1: favorite video was like really special. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yes, you had to race to the television, yes, and
Speaker 4: you had to.
Speaker 1: Like record it on VHS if you wanted to watch
Speaker 1: it again. And when they debuted a video, it was
Speaker 1: a big event.
Speaker 2: Here is the planet's first look at smells like teen Spirit.
Speaker 1: It's just really different when all you have is a
Speaker 1: few channels on the television, and only one of them
Speaker 1: is really geared towards you and the things you're interested in.
Speaker 1: That's like four, we're in to someone growing up now.
Speaker 5: Okay, so you know we're talking about this performance she
Speaker 5: gave in nineteen eighty four, like a virgin. She's like
Speaker 5: writhing around on the floor. It's you know, goes down
Speaker 5: in history in many ways. And you're going to walk
Speaker 5: us through all of that. But before we get deep
Speaker 5: into it, who is Madonna in this year? She's not
Speaker 5: yet a big star?
Speaker 1: Is that right? Yeah, she's not a big star yet.
Speaker 1: She's sort of an up and coming star. She's released
Speaker 1: her first single.
Speaker 6: The song that out on the radio right now, called Everybody.
Speaker 6: It's about getting people could dance and lose their inhibition.
Speaker 1: And in nineteen eighty two, just a couple of years
Speaker 1: before this, it charted on the dance charts, but it
Speaker 1: wasn't super mainstream, but it did help her get her
Speaker 1: first album deal. Right, so she does have an album.
Speaker 1: She's released an album at this point in July of
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three, and it's a great album. I just
Speaker 1: want to say, I listened to it again this morning,
Speaker 1: just to psych myself up. And it's just full of bangers, right,
Speaker 1: Lucky Star Holiday border line, Like, she comes out of
Speaker 1: the gate with this really strong album. But it debuted
Speaker 1: on the Billboard charts at one ninety. Oh that's so surprising, okay,
Speaker 1: Right in the United States, it wasn't that popular, and
Speaker 1: it didn't peak until after this performance. After this performance,
Speaker 1: it made it to number eight on the charts, I see.
Speaker 1: And that was more than a year after it was released,
Speaker 1: So you know, this is the performance that's going to
Speaker 1: push her into superstardom. At this point, she's still kind
Speaker 1: of like a known entity, but not by everyone. Holiday
Speaker 1: as a great single. I think we're going to hear
Speaker 1: a lot more of you such license, thank you, and
Speaker 1: thanks for doing the interview.
Speaker 6: You're welcome.
Speaker 5: So that's interesting because if she wasn't huge at that moment,
Speaker 5: why did MTV pick her to perform or how did
Speaker 5: they have the fourth site to know that she was
Speaker 5: going to be huge?
Speaker 1: Well, Empty's audience was a little different than the mainstream
Speaker 1: radio audience, right, That's one of the things MTV did
Speaker 1: that was pretty unique is that they chose their artists
Speaker 1: in a different way. Than the radio DJs did, and
Speaker 1: Madonna was very much an MTV artist. She embraced music
Speaker 1: videos really early, when a lot of other musicians were
Speaker 1: extremely skeptical. She saw a potential in it.
Speaker 4: It's so funny to think about now.
Speaker 1: A lot of artists were really skeptical of MTV and
Speaker 1: music videos. They felt like it was impinging on their
Speaker 1: art in some way, Like there were like were these
Speaker 1: lessons and like this is asking us to be actors.
Speaker 5: Oh god, it's like if we could go back to that, honestly,
Speaker 5: like now everyone has to be actor anyway, Kerry.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. And actually, there's this amazing video you can
Speaker 1: find on YouTube where Madonna is on a panel at
Speaker 1: some music conference in nineteen eighty four and they're talking
Speaker 1: about the rise of MTV and music videos and all
Speaker 1: the other musicians are complaining about it, and Madonna is
Speaker 1: pushing back.
Speaker 6: You could be reaching a lot of people that would
Speaker 6: never be able to come and see you live, So
Speaker 6: I think that definitely an advantage.
Speaker 1: She's really the least famous person on this panel, but
Speaker 1: in true Madonna fashion, she interrupts James Brown at one points.
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, but you know, kids today worship the television,
Speaker 6: So I think it's a great way to reach them.
Speaker 1: Honestly. The funniest part is that she gets into it
Speaker 1: with John Oates of Holland Oates. They would, by the way,
Speaker 1: go on to completely embrace music videos and performed at
Speaker 1: the same VMAs where Madonna performed like a Virgin. But
Speaker 1: here John Oates is very against the idea of music
Speaker 1: videos because he is a serious musician as far as
Speaker 1: I'm concerned. You know, I always wanted to be a musician,
Speaker 1: and you know, to me, that's still my purpose.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: But listen, when you perform on stage, you're acting. I mean,
Speaker 6: that's a performance. So what's I mean if someone puts
Speaker 6: a cam on you, what's the difference?
Speaker 1: So she really saw the potential, right, And that's partially
Speaker 1: because a lot of her early career was tied to
Speaker 1: the culture in New York in those early years that
Speaker 1: she got here, and there were a ton of filmmakers
Speaker 1: around her and artists, and so she was just really
Speaker 1: comfortable with the medium. She was comfortable being on camera. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to tell you about all of that,
Speaker 1: but I want to finish telling you about the performance first.
Speaker 4: Yes, Okay, So back to the performance.
Speaker 5: You know, you said in the intro that like a
Speaker 5: Virgin hadn't actually been released yet, so it's interesting or
Speaker 5: I guess is it interesting?
Speaker 4: Tell me that she chose to perform that song on stage.
Speaker 1: It is interesting, and I think it's really unusual. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure that MTV or your label would let.
Speaker 5: You do that now because it's like a debut, right
Speaker 5: She's debuting it on stage kind of.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she debuts a song and people are obsessed
Speaker 1: with it, but they can't buy it. That's why her
Speaker 1: album goes back on the charts, because they're like, this
Speaker 1: is an amazing song, and when they go to record stores,
Speaker 1: I need more. You can download it, so it's not
Speaker 1: available right away. She chose to sing this, I think
Speaker 1: because she was really anxious to release it. You know,
Speaker 1: this performance was in September. The song itself isn't released
Speaker 1: until the end of October, and she knew knew it
Speaker 1: was going to be a big hit. She suspected that
Speaker 1: it was going to really resonate, and she was anxious
Speaker 1: to get it out and she was saying to people,
Speaker 1: I'm anxious to get it out, but her record label
Speaker 1: didn't want her to release it until the previous album
Speaker 1: had kind of peaked and valleyed, because they wanted to
Speaker 1: take as much advantage of that as possible. So it
Speaker 1: kind of makes sense that they wanted her to wait
Speaker 1: and that she didn't, And I think she just convinced
Speaker 1: MTV to let her do it. And at the time,
Speaker 1: the labels didn't think of MTV as that important, so yeah,
Speaker 1: they wouldn't have argued with her about it. They would
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, perform whatever you want on that like
Speaker 1: silly thing on that channel that like teens watch.
Speaker 4: You know, that's so interesting.
Speaker 1: So I want to tell you a couple other things
Speaker 1: about the song, which I think are fascinating and I
Speaker 1: learned through this process. The song was actually written by
Speaker 1: two men. One of them had recently started a new
Speaker 1: relationship and he wanted to like describe how amazing it
Speaker 1: felt to be in a relationship again after a rough patch.
Speaker 1: So all of the double entendres that you hear when
Speaker 1: Madonna sings it, they weren't really intended in the song,
Speaker 1: and it was written for a man to sing. They
Speaker 1: thought a man would likely sing it. They just happened
Speaker 1: to play it for a record executive and then that
Speaker 1: record executive happened the next day to me meeting with Madonna,
Speaker 1: so he has this idea that it might work for her.
Speaker 1: He plays her the demo and she immediately gets it.
Speaker 1: She's immediately like, this song will be amazing. I want
Speaker 1: to record it.
Speaker 5: It's so perfect because it's you think that she has
Speaker 5: written and I mean, I didn't know it was written
Speaker 5: by two men, but like you, it's the it is her,
Speaker 5: like that song is her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because she's gotten to writing credit on
Speaker 1: almost every song, or maybe every song she's ever sung.
Speaker 1: And I think it's because even when other people write
Speaker 1: music for her, she's very involved in the process of
Speaker 1: making it her own. So I think all her music
Speaker 1: sounds like she's written it, even though you know she's herself.
Speaker 1: Would admit she's not a musician in that way. She
Speaker 1: doesn't write the music, but she has a very clear
Speaker 1: sense of what she likes and what she thinks is
Speaker 1: going to work for her and her point of view.
Speaker 1: It's not even really just about the music. It's like
Speaker 1: about the story she wants to tell at any given time.
Speaker 5: I mean, that's a perfect entree into the performance itself.
Speaker 5: I haven't watched it in a while, and I assume
Speaker 5: listeners haven't either.
Speaker 4: Can you describe it for us?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'd be happy too, because I've watched it
Speaker 1: like ninety times in the last three weeks. I just
Speaker 1: keep watching it over and over again.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the first annual MTV Video Music Awards Show.
Speaker 1: So the performance starts and Madonna is dressed kind of
Speaker 1: like a rock and roll bride, right, And she's standing
Speaker 1: on top of this seventeen foot three layer wedding cake.
Speaker 1: And there's a mannequin next to her dressed as a groom,
Speaker 1: So it's like a bride and groom on top of
Speaker 1: a cake. And she has on a veil and she's
Speaker 1: holding a bouquet and she starts singing, and it starts
Speaker 1: with a real close up of her and it sort
Speaker 1: of pulls out and as she sings, she kicks off
Speaker 1: her heels and they land in front of the cake.
Speaker 1: This will matter later, and she starts walking down the
Speaker 1: cake using the layers as steps, okay, And she pulls
Speaker 1: back her veil and you see that she's wearing all
Speaker 1: these necklaces, one of which is a cross, right, and
Speaker 1: she has on this white belt.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's like I can see it.
Speaker 1: I can see it, And the belt buckle says boy toy, which, incidentally,
Speaker 1: I learned in my research was her graffiti tag because
Speaker 1: when she was living in New York, graffiti had become
Speaker 1: a big art form and she was dating Bascyat and
Speaker 1: she was really close to Keith Herring, who were both
Speaker 1: really into graffiti. So she had her own graffiti tag
Speaker 1: and it was ironically boy toy.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 5: So it's like every little detail of that outfit is
Speaker 5: so meticulously thought her.
Speaker 1: Yes, and also just tells you a story about Madonna
Speaker 1: and where she was at that time. So she's an
Speaker 1: all white lace and there's like Cooca dot tool in
Speaker 1: her dress, and she's wearing a bustille with spaghetti straps,
Speaker 1: and she's wearing the fingerless gloves. Yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean we all had a pair of those, right,
Speaker 5: Like everyone did. It became that classic look.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was the very classic Madonna look that all
Speaker 1: the little girls emulated. And when most people dress up
Speaker 1: as Madonna for Halloween, they put on right. I've definitely
Speaker 1: done that. And you can see in the performance that
Speaker 1: she already knows how to work a camera. At times,
Speaker 1: she looks straight into it in a way that can
Speaker 1: only be described as extremely seductive. Like I can't think
Speaker 1: of another way to describe it. But she's working the camera,
Speaker 1: which a lot of people just didn't know how to
Speaker 1: do yet. Right, she's conscious of where it is. She
Speaker 1: knows how to move in a way that it's going
Speaker 1: to capture her in the ways that are most flattering.
Speaker 1: And as she starts to walk down the cake, she
Speaker 1: takes off the veil and she takes down her hair.
Speaker 1: Her hair's up and she sort of like takes out
Speaker 1: the thing that's holding it and she shakes it out
Speaker 1: the way you do when you're getting ready for bed.
Speaker 1: And even that a scene at the time is a
Speaker 1: little risque, right, Like she's.
Speaker 4: It's not progressed. It's not how you shake your hair
Speaker 4: when you're going to bed.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, of course, it's like when you're getting
Speaker 5: ready to jump into bed with someone.
Speaker 1: Maybe I know. It's also that like classic librarian thing
Speaker 1: whenever they want to make a librarian hot. She like
Speaker 1: takes down her hair and she shakes it.
Speaker 5: There is a name, by the way, I forget what
Speaker 5: it is, but there is a name for that shaking
Speaker 5: down of the butt.
Speaker 1: Oh, really oh amazing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it was like a trope name for it. Anyway,
Speaker 4: carry amazing.
Speaker 1: And so when she gets to the bottom of the cake,
Speaker 1: she drops to the floor and she lays on her
Speaker 1: back for a second, and you see that she's grabbing
Speaker 1: her white stiletto heels and putting them on, sort of
Speaker 1: off camera.
Speaker 4: Oh so she's like putting them back on because she's
Speaker 4: thrown them off.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she threw them off to be able to walk
Speaker 1: down this like really kind of precarious cake, to be honest.
Speaker 1: And so now she's putting them on and the camera's
Speaker 1: focused on her face. So the next time you see her,
Speaker 1: the shoes are back on her feet and she throws
Speaker 1: the bouquet into the crowd. And when she went down
Speaker 1: for the heels, she did lie down for a second.
Speaker 1: She sort of like laid down, so when she was
Speaker 1: putting them on, it wasn't so noticeable that she was
Speaker 1: putting them back on. But now she's on her feet,
Speaker 1: and she's on her feet for some amount of time,
Speaker 1: and then she decides to go back down to the
Speaker 1: floor and she throws her veil onto the stage and
Speaker 1: she gets down and she does what I think can
Speaker 1: only be described as writhing or rolling around on the floor.
Speaker 1: She sort of similates sex by thrusting her hips and
Speaker 1: at the end she's crawling around and the skirt rides
Speaker 1: up to her waist and the camera gets a picture
Speaker 1: of essentially her legs and her garter belts and her butt.
Speaker 1: But I don't know how else to say this. It's
Speaker 1: sort of just like under butt, Like it's not her
Speaker 1: full butt, even though that's what everyone would say after.
Speaker 4: This, because she's wearing underwear.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's wearing underwear, so you're just seeing her long ray. Okay,
Speaker 1: I mean you can't really see the underwear. It's just
Speaker 1: like I think it's just white lace underwear. But she
Speaker 1: has these garter belts on and you see your hose,
Speaker 1: so it's not that crazy. But at the time it's
Speaker 1: considered wildly inappropriate. And as she's lying there on the
Speaker 1: ground on her back, the camera cuts to black.
Speaker 4: So are people like going wild? Is the audience screaming?
Speaker 7: Like?
Speaker 4: Are what's the reaction?
Speaker 6: Like?
Speaker 5: Is it actually as scandalous as I don't know, you
Speaker 5: made it sound like it doesn't sound that scandalous, But
Speaker 5: was it considered scandless?
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty four, it was considered scandalless. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: the audience just claps like normal. They're not like on
Speaker 1: their feet and freaking out there. It's a regular sort
Speaker 1: of clapping. And then I mean, who are these people?
Speaker 1: Get on your feet? I don't know, but you know,
Speaker 1: and then immediately it goes to commercial. But you're right
Speaker 1: that it wouldn't be considered a wild performance today. It
Speaker 1: was seen as extremely controversial. But people have come out
Speaker 1: in much less clothing since this, Right, there's like the
Speaker 1: Brittany with the snake, and Madonna herself has done performances
Speaker 1: that have been far more risque since this. But you
Speaker 1: have to think about that. Even at that time, the
Speaker 1: fact that the song used the word virgin was seen
Speaker 1: as a provocation. So then suddenly pairing it with a
Speaker 1: wedding dress and a cross and showing some skin is
Speaker 1: considered just beyond what is acceptable. And in the video
Speaker 1: that's available now, you don't see the crowd reaction shots, right,
Speaker 1: You just see them clapping and then it goes to
Speaker 1: the commercial. But reporting at the time said that people
Speaker 1: were literally aghast. Her longtime publicist Liz Rosenberg, said that
Speaker 1: people were gasping in the audience. Oh really, okay, and
Speaker 1: that Madonna took it so much further than anyone knew
Speaker 1: she was capable of.
Speaker 4: Oh interesting, okay, So maybe they were a guess, we
Speaker 4: just didn't see it.
Speaker 1: You just don't see it because unlike now where they
Speaker 1: have made a point to like go to the audience
Speaker 1: and show your reaction, they just weren't that sophisticated at
Speaker 1: the time.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a good point too. It's like this is
Speaker 5: a different kind of camera work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, than we would expect now, because now they would
Speaker 1: be prepared, they would wanted to assume a shot in
Speaker 1: a house. So and so reacted exactly. And another example,
Speaker 1: just so you get a sense of what the reaction was.
Speaker 1: A cultural critic at the Philly Inquirer wrote at the
Speaker 1: time that despite the fact that people think rock musicians
Speaker 1: and rock industry people are you know, jaded and decadent
Speaker 1: and nothing can shock them, that in fact, the crowd
Speaker 1: looked absolutely shocked, and that you know, co host Bet Midler,
Speaker 1: who herself was seen as you know, a little provocative,
Speaker 1: was moved afterwards to roll her eyes and make a
Speaker 1: few a few remarks about Madonna's virginity.
Speaker 4: Oh interesting. Yeah, I wish we knew what those were,
Speaker 4: but I'm sure they're not.
Speaker 1: I tried to find them, honestly, because I thought it
Speaker 1: would be really funny to play them. But I haven't
Speaker 1: been able to uncover that particular of the award show.
Speaker 1: But you know, this Philly Inquirer critic basically makes the
Speaker 1: point that the rock business must now be conservative because
Speaker 1: look how they responded to this, which is kind of
Speaker 1: a funny idea, right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's worth noting or contextualizing a little
Speaker 5: bit what was happening in the eighties. This is the
Speaker 5: Reagan era, the whole like traditional family values thing.
Speaker 8: Family life has changed much down through the years. The
Speaker 8: days when we could expect to live in only one
Speaker 8: home and hold only one job or probably gone forever.
Speaker 8: Perhaps we will not go back to the old family ways,
Speaker 8: but I think we can and should preserve family values.
Speaker 5: So it's not shocking in some way to think people
Speaker 5: would be scandalized by this in nineteen eighty four, whereas
Speaker 5: had this performance occurred in nineteen sixty nine, it would
Speaker 5: stock or something like.
Speaker 4: Maybe that wouldn't have been the case.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think, yes, very much. The Reagan era,
Speaker 1: which starts in eighty one when he's elected president, and
Speaker 1: he remains in office until eighty nine, so he's really
Speaker 1: president for all of the eighties. And you think about it,
Speaker 1: and that era was very much a reaction to the
Speaker 1: civil rights and feminist movements, and he was an extremely
Speaker 1: popular president, probably the most popular Republican president. And some
Speaker 1: could argue whether or not Trump is as popular as Reagan.
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of evidence he is not,
Speaker 1: because Reagan really appealed even to moderates, right They felt
Speaker 1: like he was this kind of goofy actor turned politician.
Speaker 8: Tomorrow is my birthday, and I prefer to think of
Speaker 8: it as the thirty sixth anniversary of my thirty ninth,
Speaker 8: but I'll be just about due for a midlife crisis.
Speaker 1: He exudes this very wholesome americanism, and what he's sort
Speaker 1: of reassuring Americans of is that we're going to go
Speaker 1: back to family values, traditional family values, whatever that means.
Speaker 5: So Madonna with her cross and the virginal yes, the
Speaker 5: virginal whore on top of the wedding cake with her
Speaker 5: cross strutting down onto the stage is not considered traditional
Speaker 5: family value.
Speaker 1: Is not considered traditional family values. And actually, to prepare
Speaker 1: for this episode, I read this great new book about
Speaker 1: Madonna from the renowned biographer Mary Gabriel. The book is
Speaker 1: called Madonna, a Rebel Life, and she's written a lot
Speaker 1: of books about remarkable women. I highly recommend it. It's
Speaker 1: an excellent book, and in it she actually talked a
Speaker 1: little bit about what this era was like.
Speaker 3: Oh great for young people who don't understand that time.
Speaker 3: It was a time of extreme reaction, conservative reaction. It
Speaker 3: was a time when the conservative movement really gained leverage
Speaker 3: within the Reagan administration to turn back the clock on
Speaker 3: reforms legislatively and politically and socially. So any social advances
Speaker 3: that had been made that freed people and made actually
Speaker 3: post war freedoms, whether it's financial equality, the labor union's
Speaker 3: sexual equality, racial equality, whatever had been achieved up to
Speaker 3: let's say the seventies, all came under attack by conservatives.
Speaker 3: I mean, they really, you know, we know this phrase,
Speaker 3: they played the long game. That phrase wasn't used in
Speaker 3: but that's what they were doing.
Speaker 5: So it's interesting because it almost feels significant that Madonna
Speaker 5: is perhaps I mean, I think, knowing what we know
Speaker 5: of her now this probably becomes true challenging that with
Speaker 5: this performance, Reagan was very much focused on preserving the
Speaker 5: sanctity of the traditional family. And I'm sure Madonna, who
Speaker 5: had you know, was like gallivanting around New York City
Speaker 5: in the late seventies and early eighties in this like
Speaker 5: very specific time of artists and free love is pushing
Speaker 5: against that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very much. And interestingly, her initial idea for this
Speaker 1: performance was also out there, but probably wouldn't have been
Speaker 1: so challenging to that worldview. The wedding cake was actually
Speaker 1: her second choice for our prop. She initially wanted to
Speaker 1: sing the song to a tiger, but the producers obviously
Speaker 1: were like, no, be serious, we can't have it like time,
Speaker 1: like a live tiger, like a giant. And she's like,
Speaker 1: singing the song to the tiger, yes, like if the
Speaker 1: tiger was the one who was making her feel like
Speaker 1: a version, oh.
Speaker 5: Okay, And so that that's so interesting because that weill
Speaker 5: wild and dangerous and whatever like wouldn't have actually been
Speaker 5: as controversial.
Speaker 1: So it wouldn't have been but obviously the producers are like,
Speaker 1: it's too dangerous, like the tiger could kill.
Speaker 5: Someone pre Britney Snake era, Yes, pre Britney snak era, Right, they.
Speaker 4: Don't want to get mauled by a tiger.
Speaker 1: And so just five days before the performance, she goes
Speaker 1: back to them and says, how about this seventeen foot cake?
Speaker 1: She had recently done something like this at a party
Speaker 1: and it had been this big success, and so the
Speaker 1: producer say that they built the cake for her, even
Speaker 1: though it put them over budget.
Speaker 5: Okay, that is such an important detail. And also that
Speaker 5: made me remember, isn't there some sort of maybe a
Speaker 5: lion or like some other large cat in the music
Speaker 5: video for the Yes?
Speaker 1: In the music video she does get her wild cat.
Speaker 1: She gets a lion and she sings to it. But
Speaker 1: you know, it's still sort of like tied a little
Speaker 1: bit to this performance. And in fact what happens is
Speaker 1: a lot of times MTV actually just runs this performance
Speaker 1: as the music video because it's such a popular moment.
Speaker 4: But why the cake? Like, what did this cake represent
Speaker 4: to her?
Speaker 8: Do we know?
Speaker 1: Yeah, we do know, and in fact we know because
Speaker 1: of Mary Gabriel. She wrote a lot about this performance
Speaker 1: in the book I mentioned, and she discovered something interesting
Speaker 1: in her research.
Speaker 3: Her idea was that she was going to make a
Speaker 3: comment on marriage about how when you're on the top
Speaker 3: of the cake, in other words, just getting married, everything
Speaker 3: is so wonderful and rosy and dreamlike and gauzy and pure.
Speaker 3: But as she came down the cake, it was like
Speaker 3: Dante's Inferno. You know, she went through the various layers
Speaker 3: of marriage, you know, and by the time she got
Speaker 3: to the floor, it was, you know, she was well
Speaker 3: acquainted with what marriage really was, and so she started
Speaker 3: rolling around on the floor and you know, kind of
Speaker 3: writhing mock masturbation, and you know, it was classic Madonna.
Speaker 5: I love hearing how deliberate her choices are and how
Speaker 5: she's always focused on telling a story. Like these are
Speaker 5: things that I think we assume about Madonna. But Mary
Speaker 5: Gabriel really.
Speaker 1: Uncovered this, yes, because this had never been published before.
Speaker 1: It was part of the reporter's notes that she got
Speaker 1: access to for her book. So I love this detail.
Speaker 1: It's one that's never really been discussed. And I do
Speaker 1: think at the time people thought Madonna was manufactured in
Speaker 1: some way, like they felt like, you know, she was
Speaker 1: a pop star. Maybe the record labels were making her decisions,
Speaker 1: maybe this or that, But the reality is she always
Speaker 1: had real intention behind the choices she made, and they
Speaker 1: were her choices, right, And it really speaks to that
Speaker 1: when you think about this, right, this is a really
Speaker 1: complex setup for this what seems like just an off
Speaker 1: the cuff performance.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of messages, yeah, wrapped into this one performance. Okay,
Speaker 5: so we know that people are apparently aghast in the audience,
Speaker 5: although we don't see it on their faces if you
Speaker 5: watch the video back now. But has Madonna ever talked
Speaker 5: about what immediately happens after that performance.
Speaker 1: She has talked about it, and in fact, she talked
Speaker 1: about it recently in twenty twenty one. She was on
Speaker 1: Howard Stern's show, and here's what she said.
Speaker 9: After I got off stage during that performance, my manager
Speaker 9: was white as a ghost, and he looked at me
Speaker 9: and said, do you know what you just did? And
Speaker 9: I said, yeah, I sang a song and I lost
Speaker 9: my shoe on stage and he's like, no, your butt
Speaker 9: was showing for the entire song.
Speaker 1: Your career is over. Wow.
Speaker 5: So I wonder if she freaked out that he says that,
Speaker 5: or is she like, I'm Madonna, I'll do anything, you know.
Speaker 1: She says she wasn't even then, even that early in
Speaker 1: her career. She says, you know, I wasn't that apologetic.
Speaker 1: I was just like, well, fuck it, I made a mistake.
Speaker 4: You don't go somewhere and crying say I just lost
Speaker 4: my career. No that, but also interesting that she did
Speaker 4: consider it a mistake, at least it first.
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like she really ever questioned her choices, right,
Speaker 1: She comes into this with so much confidence. She has
Speaker 1: sort of this inherent confidence that she's making the right
Speaker 1: decisions even if men, you know, and it's usually men
Speaker 1: can't see her vision. And that's I think something about
Speaker 1: her I really admire, Like I feel like I have
Speaker 1: so many doubts.
Speaker 5: Well, as you're saying this, I'm like, god, I need
Speaker 5: to like put a Madonna slogan up on my computer
Speaker 5: screen to be like, no, actually, you know what the
Speaker 5: fuck you're doing?
Speaker 1: Yeah, truly, because I feel like I spent all of
Speaker 1: my life second guessing myself. Like it's amazing that she
Speaker 1: doesn't have that quality. What a gift in her life.
Speaker 1: But either way, her team obviously realizes that she's pushed
Speaker 1: the envelope maybe too far this time, and they come
Speaker 1: up with this explanation for how she ended up on
Speaker 1: the ground with her skirt around her waist. And I
Speaker 1: have to tell you that I've heard her tell the
Speaker 1: story in many different arenas over the course of many years,
Speaker 1: and she told it as recently is twenty twenty two
Speaker 1: on Jimmy fallon and she must believe it at this
Speaker 1: point here she is talking about what happened when she
Speaker 1: got to the bottom of the giant wedding cake.
Speaker 7: My white still little pumps fell off and I was
Speaker 7: trying to do like the smooth move, like dive for
Speaker 7: the shoe and make it look like it was choreography. Yeah,
Speaker 7: and my dress flipped up and my butt was showing.
Speaker 7: Can't imagine happened by accident. I didn't even know my
Speaker 7: butt was showing.
Speaker 4: Wait, okay, this is so interesting.
Speaker 5: So has this explanation then been concocted to like justify it.
Speaker 1: Well, that is the official story. She has told many
Speaker 1: times that she fell onto the ground because she was
Speaker 1: trying to retrieve her shoe.
Speaker 5: I mean, I guess it is somewhat believable that she
Speaker 5: would be trying to like sexily and without causing a pause,
Speaker 5: put back on the shoes wallowed the floor, but also
Speaker 5: doing it.
Speaker 4: In this way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But Mary Gabriel tells a different story in her
Speaker 1: book when.
Speaker 3: She starts to roll around on the floor her shoes around.
Speaker 3: You know, I think that that scenario was something her
Speaker 3: manager cooked up to kind of justify her having performed
Speaker 3: this what was at the time considered incredibly leude act
Speaker 3: where her dress rode up and you know, her underwear
Speaker 3: was showed, and I mean it was an absolutely chaste
Speaker 3: performance by today's standards. It wasn't just that her bottom
Speaker 3: was exposed. It was that she was obviously a lustful
Speaker 3: woman satisfying herself, not overtly masturbating. But that was the implication.
Speaker 3: And for that to happen on TV at that time,
Speaker 3: to have this young gorgeous woman saying, you know what, guys,
Speaker 3: I don't need you. You know, I can satisfy myself.
Speaker 3: You can keep your wedding cake. That was a message
Speaker 3: too far.
Speaker 5: Okay, So I didn't realize there was like this whole
Speaker 5: back and forth theory about the shoes. Yeah, you've obviously
Speaker 5: watched the performance a lot of times. Now do you
Speaker 5: agree with Mary's assessment? Like where I guess it's the
Speaker 5: question is the shoe?
Speaker 6: So is that right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean to be honest, I have watched it
Speaker 1: a lot, and her shoes were definitely on her feet
Speaker 1: when she went down the second time.
Speaker 4: Okay, so the quiet, okay, right, let me just clarify.
Speaker 5: So the question is whether the shoes are already on
Speaker 5: her feet when she goes down the second time, or
Speaker 5: if she's putting them on her feet and thus has
Speaker 5: to like writhe around in order to do stuff.
Speaker 1: Yes, the story she's telling is that her shoes were
Speaker 1: off her feet, so she went down to put them
Speaker 1: back on. She tried to make it look like it
Speaker 1: was choreography, and that's why she's riding around on the floor.
Speaker 5: But that's which makes sense for the first time she
Speaker 5: goes down, but the second time she goes down, it
Speaker 5: does not make sense for the second time.
Speaker 1: That's why I was so clear when we were walking
Speaker 1: through it to be like, these shoes are going to matter,
Speaker 1: because okay, she kicks off the shoes at the top
Speaker 1: of the cake so she can walk down, But once
Speaker 1: she gets on the ground, she puts her shoes back on,
Speaker 1: and there's a significant amount of the performance where she's
Speaker 1: walking around.
Speaker 4: In them in the shoes, and then she lays back
Speaker 4: down on the floor.
Speaker 1: And then the part that really scandalizes people is this
Speaker 1: crawling around and a stimulating sex and her shoes are
Speaker 1: firm on that entire day. I got it, okay, But
Speaker 1: I think in a way this also explains something about Madonna,
Speaker 1: which is that she's very good at bending reality to
Speaker 1: her will. You know, she's really very willing to sort
Speaker 1: of be like, no, this is what happened, and she
Speaker 1: has said it so many times that I think most
Speaker 1: people believe that this whole section of the performance that
Speaker 1: got her in trouble was just a mistake, and so
Speaker 1: she was given a little bit of a pass for it.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 5: This is actually reminded me of something that I think
Speaker 5: we didn't mention yet, which is that Madonna was not
Speaker 5: only at the VMA's to perform like a version, she
Speaker 5: was actually nominated for Best New Artist in a Video
Speaker 5: for the video for Borderline.
Speaker 1: Yes, she was nominated for Borderline. She ended up losing
Speaker 1: to Annie Lennox and the Eurythmics, but you know, she
Speaker 1: kind of stole the show, and it turns out that
Speaker 1: Annie Lennox was not very gracious in her victory. Really,
Speaker 1: after the show, someone asked Annie Lennox out this performance
Speaker 1: by Madonna, and she describes it as very very horrish. Wow,
Speaker 1: she says something like it was like she was fucking
Speaker 1: the music industry. It might have been a parody on
Speaker 1: her part, but I thought it was very low.
Speaker 4: Whoa, it's like she's won.
Speaker 5: I'm so confused by this because analytics and the rhythmics
Speaker 5: have won, so like, why bother making a nasty comment
Speaker 5: about the loser?
Speaker 4: Anyway, Fine, I love them both, but fascinating.
Speaker 1: Well, whatever analytics thought, she was wrong, because this performance
Speaker 1: really does end upsetting the bar for every performance that
Speaker 1: comes after it at the VMA's. In fact, every year
Speaker 1: after this, artists have just tried to top Madonna by
Speaker 1: being even more outrageous.
Speaker 5: Okay, so let's talk a little bit more about the VMAs.
Speaker 5: So this was the first year, but here we are
Speaker 5: twenty twenty four. They're still around forty years later, and
Speaker 5: there have been many I guess I don't know what
Speaker 5: you want to call them, outrageous, iconic, staged wild moments
Speaker 5: Like we've talked in a previous episode about Madonna kissing
Speaker 5: Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera. That was like certainly stage,
Speaker 5: but you know they're they are all kind of trying
Speaker 5: to top each other.
Speaker 1: And there's also the most maybe famous one which was
Speaker 1: not stage, which is when Kanye stole the mic from
Speaker 1: t Square.
Speaker 4: Right, thank you so much for giving me a chance
Speaker 4: to win a VMA Award.
Speaker 1: No, Taylor, I'm really happy for you.
Speaker 2: I'ma let you finish.
Speaker 1: But Beyonce had one of the best videos of all time.
Speaker 5: I also remember Lady Gaga in the meat dress, like
Speaker 5: that was a huge moment about our fashion moment met
Speaker 5: there was Miley cyrus turking with Robin Thick in that
Speaker 5: Blurred Lines performance.
Speaker 4: I'm sure there's so many, so many right.
Speaker 1: Now, we mentioned one earlier. There's Brittany in the Snake.
Speaker 4: There's always something or and if there's not, like that's
Speaker 4: a problem for them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a bad year for the MS if they
Speaker 1: haven't made any noise.
Speaker 5: So that first year, the Madonna year, what were the
Speaker 5: awards like or what were the performances like beyond Madonna?
Speaker 5: Like was it just all tame or were they kind
Speaker 5: of figuring it all out? And then they had this
Speaker 5: performance like what else was happening? So I've actually watched
Speaker 5: as much of the first year's ceremony as I could.
Speaker 5: I've found as many clips of it as are available
Speaker 5: on YouTube. It's really hard because there isn't like a
Speaker 5: single start to finish recording of this, and I'm so
Speaker 5: sad about it.
Speaker 1: I really wish I could have found it. These awards
Speaker 1: take place on September fourteenth and nineteen eighty four. It's
Speaker 1: a totally live performance, so you know, they don't tape
Speaker 1: it and re err it or anything. And it's at
Speaker 1: Radio City Music Hall. And it's probably worth noting that
Speaker 1: MTV was only three years old at this point. It
Speaker 1: was pretty popular already, and it had close to twenty
Speaker 1: four million viewers. But the awards were supposed to be
Speaker 1: kind of a joke. They were meant to be ironic,
Speaker 1: you know. Les Garland, one of the founding executives of MTV,
Speaker 1: has said the original thought was to make a mockery
Speaker 1: of all award shows. So it surprised us.
Speaker 5: So when people took it seriously, Okay, you know who
Speaker 5: else performed that year.
Speaker 1: Well, bat Meddler and Dan Ackward were the hosts, and
Speaker 1: performers included Rod Stewart, Tina Turner's Ezy top Holland oates
Speaker 1: the famously.
Speaker 4: Anti music video music stars Yeah, Huey.
Speaker 1: Lewis and the News, which was very big at the time,
Speaker 1: which people may have forgotten about. And of course Madonna
Speaker 1: she was the least famous of the performers. This was
Speaker 1: really one of her first big TV appearances. In fact,
Speaker 1: her first big TV appearance was on American Bandstand.
Speaker 8: This lady started out as a dancer, went to New York,
Speaker 8: went to Paris, worked with bands, came back as a
Speaker 8: single and is she hot? This is Madonna.
Speaker 1: It's so funny to watch it now because it's just
Speaker 1: like a bunch of white kids like dancing around. And
Speaker 1: even that was controversial because at the end he said
Speaker 1: to her, like what comes next for you? What are
Speaker 1: your dreams? What's like to rule the world?
Speaker 4: There you go, ladies and gentlemen, this is Madonna.
Speaker 1: And people were shocked that she was so presumptuous as
Speaker 1: to want to rule the world.
Speaker 5: Okay, And so, just to reiterate for the kids listening, yeah, MTV, Like,
Speaker 5: how did you describe how big a cultural impact MTV
Speaker 5: had on like our generation.
Speaker 1: Well, let me give you a little background on MTV
Speaker 1: stuff that I didn't know, so I think it's interesting.
Speaker 1: So MTV was launched on August first in nineteen eighty one.
Speaker 5: There were exactly one month older than me. Oh amazing,
Speaker 5: I'm literally the MTV generation. You are You are the
Speaker 5: MTV generation.
Speaker 1: Well, you might actually be a little young to be
Speaker 1: the MTV generation because yah, I guess the MTV generation
Speaker 1: were the teenagers who watched those fast two years of MTV.
Speaker 1: So it was kind of this ragtag operation, like a
Speaker 1: couple of executives who thought that this would be a
Speaker 1: relatively cheap way to reach teenagers. That there was no
Speaker 1: TV for teenagers at the time, and they only had
Speaker 1: about one hundred videos to choose from because artists didn't
Speaker 1: make were making music videos like that didn't exist as
Speaker 1: an art form. And even though the studios were based
Speaker 1: in New York, it was initially only available on cable
Speaker 1: channels in New Jersey. So really yeah, so only a
Speaker 1: few thousand people on a single cable system in northern
Speaker 1: New Jersey could see it. In fact, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I read somewhere that to watch the launch, the executives
Speaker 1: had to drive to New Jersey.
Speaker 5: Such such a fun fact. If I was from New Jersey,
Speaker 5: I would be using that fact.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing, And the first few hours on the
Speaker 1: channel are themselves like very iconic moments in pop culture
Speaker 1: ten nine eight. It starts with the footage of a
Speaker 1: rocket launching.
Speaker 8: Five four.
Speaker 4: We've gone from main engine starts.
Speaker 1: We have reded, and a voice says, and I can
Speaker 1: hear this voice in my head because they used to
Speaker 1: use this voice a lot on the channel. Ladies channlemen
Speaker 1: rock and roll. And then the first video plays, which
Speaker 1: is the song video Killed the Radio Star. The song
Speaker 1: is from this band, the Buggles, I think that's how
Speaker 1: it's pronounced, which was a British new wave band. This
Speaker 1: was their biggest and maybe only hit. And the rest
Speaker 1: of the launch is a mix of music videos and
Speaker 1: introductions hyping up how high tech this all.
Speaker 6: Is, announcing the latest achievement in home entertainment, the power
Speaker 6: of sight, video, the power of sound MTV.
Speaker 1: Music tele and all of the programming was guided by hosts,
Speaker 1: or as they called the VJs, which you know, is
Speaker 1: like the video version of a DJ.
Speaker 2: Welcome to MTV Music Television, the world's first twenty four
Speaker 2: hour stereo video music channel.
Speaker 1: They would go on to become household names like I
Speaker 1: don't know if you remember, but we knew the names
Speaker 1: of vj's on MTV growing up and back in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty one. They were just introducing the concept in this
Speaker 1: grandiose way.
Speaker 2: The best of TV combined with the best of radio
Speaker 2: starting right now. You'll never look at music the same way.
Speaker 4: Again, that's amazing, okay.
Speaker 5: And so if they only had about one hundred music
Speaker 5: videos to choose from, did they even were.
Speaker 4: They calling them music videos?
Speaker 7: Then?
Speaker 4: Like, what where were they finding these things?
Speaker 1: Well, a lot of the videos came from abroad, actually,
Speaker 1: so they found clips or videos that had been made
Speaker 1: by bands in other countries. In fact, one of the
Speaker 1: things that MTV did is really bring a lot of
Speaker 1: British music to the States because that wasn't really being
Speaker 1: played on the radio. It's considered sort of the second
Speaker 1: British invasion. And it is just true that music videos
Speaker 1: the way we think about them genuinely did not exist.
Speaker 1: I know that's hard to believe, but you know, shows
Speaker 1: that focused on music, like American Bandstand, which launched in
Speaker 1: fifty seven and was such a huge and popular show,
Speaker 1: they just featured live performances. So when there was a video.
Speaker 1: It was considered a short film before this. And one
Speaker 1: of the things that was so funny in the research
Speaker 1: is that reporters couldn't figure out how to describe what
Speaker 1: music videos were when the channel launched. And I found
Speaker 1: this amazing clip when Time magazine tried to describe it
Speaker 1: to its readers. This is how they did it. The
Speaker 1: main ingredients in MTV's programming are video records or videos
Speaker 1: colon current recordings illustrated by three or four minute video tape.
Speaker 5: Oh my god, did you watch that video colin current
Speaker 5: recordings posted by three or four minute video tapes?
Speaker 1: Wow?
Speaker 4: That's me. I love archives.
Speaker 1: Oh and I have to tell you the other detail
Speaker 1: I love is that because it was literally like a
Speaker 1: person who was just like inserting tapes into a VCR
Speaker 1: in the early years, sometimes the screen would go black
Speaker 1: when someone was changing.
Speaker 5: Out changing the v Oh my gosh, changing the tape
Speaker 5: in the VCR. Yes, Can we go back to that time? Honestly,
Speaker 5: it just feels like such a simpler time.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was a simpler time, but there were
Speaker 1: lots of horrible things happening back then too. There was
Speaker 1: the AIDS crisis. I mean, I think That's what's kind
Speaker 1: of interesting about the era, right, is like, in some
Speaker 1: ways it does feel simpler, but part of it is
Speaker 1: because there was this aura of oh, everything's fine, but
Speaker 1: underneath it, there were a lot of things that weren't fine.
Speaker 1: And you know, that's what the MTV generation, this generation
Speaker 1: of kids who grew up on MTV, were reacting to
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. That's what Madonna was reacting to,
Speaker 1: for sure. But yeah, the channel is almost instantly successful,
Speaker 1: even though it's like barely available. They start getting more
Speaker 1: and more carriers, and one of the ways they convince
Speaker 1: carriers to use it is they do a survey. They
Speaker 1: send people to record stores and say, are people asking
Speaker 1: for records that they're only seeing on MTV versus things
Speaker 1: that are being played on the radio, And record stores
Speaker 1: say that that is the case. They are seeing kids
Speaker 1: coming in increasingly and they are selling more and more
Speaker 1: music only available on MTV. And that's how the executive
Speaker 1: convinced more cable stations to take it. And another thing
Speaker 1: that's kind of interesting about this is that cable television
Speaker 1: wasn't that big at that time. It was kind of
Speaker 1: still in its early stages, and there was no programming
Speaker 1: specifically for teens. And you know, cable TV was more
Speaker 1: common in the suburbs and rural areas because it was
Speaker 1: easier to run cable there. So you need to actually
Speaker 1: run cable to make cable available to more people.
Speaker 4: And so initially a lot of what does run cable mean?
Speaker 4: Like run a wire?
Speaker 1: Well, no physical cable, like you know, cable is a.
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, run like running a wire, that's what, right,
Speaker 5: Like running cable wasn't a cable.
Speaker 4: This is kind of the same as a wire.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean I'm not a technical expert, so
Speaker 1: let's say yes.
Speaker 5: Anyway, Okay, so you mean they need running a physical.
Speaker 1: Cable, yes, so to actually like make it available to people.
Speaker 1: And so, because a lot of the kids who saw
Speaker 1: it were in these suburban and rural areas, first they
Speaker 1: really loved it because they didn't have access to what
Speaker 1: was going on in New York. Now, they didn't have
Speaker 1: access to this world that suddenly they were seeing for themselves.
Speaker 5: Right, It wasn't like everyone could access the same things
Speaker 5: on the internet. This was like truly you were kind
Speaker 5: of on the inside or in the know if you
Speaker 5: had access to this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so within a few years, kids are demanding
Speaker 1: that their parents buy cable so they can see MTV.
Speaker 1: And in a lot of ways, CNN and MTV are
Speaker 1: really credited with leading TV's transition from being just the
Speaker 1: three main channels, you know, ABC, CBS, NBC to really
Speaker 1: expanding the cable world and leading to this cable explosion.
Speaker 1: But the cultural impact honestly goes beyond just cable, right.
Speaker 1: MTV really changes the way people experience music. You know,
Speaker 1: Mary talks about this in her book about how after
Speaker 1: centuries of just listening to music, people now really want
Speaker 1: to watch it.
Speaker 3: Here she is again in Madonna's generation young filmmakers, this
Speaker 3: whole generation took that idea and made it an art form.
Speaker 3: And Madonna was the absolute perfect person for that because
Speaker 3: she was so visually aware of how she appeared in
Speaker 3: a camera, how she appeared moving in front of a camera.
Speaker 3: She was preternaturally prepared for the video era.
Speaker 1: And in many ways, the rise of Madonna and the
Speaker 1: rise of MTV happened together, right, they're sort of inextricably linked.
Speaker 3: Yes, there's time almost simultaneous. That year that Madonna recorded
Speaker 3: her first video, which was also nineteen eighty two, for
Speaker 3: her song burning up. Changes had begun to occur because
Speaker 3: the people making the videos weren't corporate. They were artists,
Speaker 3: and you know, the culture was about to change radically,
Speaker 3: and Madonna was at the forefront.
Speaker 5: That feels like a really good place to end Part one, Susie,
Speaker 5: what do we have in store next week?
Speaker 1: So next week we're going to take you beyond the
Speaker 1: like a virgin performance and tell you what happens next.
Speaker 1: We'll chart how those three minutes on the VMA stage,
Speaker 1: which we're supposed to tank her career, actually end up
Speaker 1: turning Madonna into the huge superstar we know that she
Speaker 1: is now. So please join us for that. This is
Speaker 1: in retrospect. Thanks for listening. Is there a pop culture
Speaker 1: moment you can't stop thinking about and want us to
Speaker 1: explore in a future episode. Email us at inretropod at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com or find us on Instagram at in retropod.
Speaker 5: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us
Speaker 5: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you
Speaker 5: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram,
Speaker 5: which we may or may not delete.
Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett
Speaker 1: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books
Speaker 1: Feminist Fight Club and This Is Eighteen.
Speaker 5: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media.
Speaker 4: Larn Hansen is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our
Speaker 4: engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. Sharon
Speaker 4: Atia is our researcher and associate producer.
Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our
Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel.
Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Our mixing engineer is Amanda
Speaker 1: Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do. We are
Speaker 1: your hosts Susie Bannacharum and Jessica Bennett. We are also
Speaker 1: executive producers. For even more check out in retropod dot com.
Speaker 1: See you next week.