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Speaker 1: The MTV Video Music Awards were launched in nineteen eighty four.

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Speaker 2: MTV presents Dead Waiting, Rock and Rolling ba again of

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Speaker 2: the last three thousand years the MTV.

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Speaker 1: Music It was meant to be ironic, a way to

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Speaker 1: poke fun at the seriousness of traditional award shows, but

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Speaker 1: the new music channel for teens was popular and big

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Speaker 1: stars showed up this lad story. Nick Jagger also there

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Speaker 1: a relatively unknown twenty six year old Madonna, in one

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Speaker 1: of her first performances on television, there to sing an

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Speaker 1: unreleased song like a Virgin. She stood atop a seventeen

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Speaker 1: foot wedding cake, dressed like a bride but wearing a

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Speaker 1: belt buckle emblazoned with the words boy toy. When she

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Speaker 1: got to the bottom of the cake, she dropped to

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Speaker 1: the ground, crawling and rolling around, simulating sex and revealing

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Speaker 1: her lingerie and a little bit of her butt. The

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Speaker 1: audience and the world aghast at the sheer audacity of it.

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Speaker 3: Madonna so outraged everyone in that room that her manager said,

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Speaker 3: your career is done.

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Speaker 1: But far from ending her ascent to the top of

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Speaker 1: the charts, that performance would change Madonna's career and life forever,

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Speaker 1: transforming her from pop newcomer to superstar.

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Speaker 4: I'm Susie Bannacaram and I'm Jessica Bennett.

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Speaker 1: And this is in Retrospect, where each week we revisit

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Speaker 1: a cultural moment from the past that shaped us and.

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Speaker 4: That we just can't stop thinking about.

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Speaker 1: Today, we're talking about one of Madonna's iconic early performances,

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Speaker 1: one that was so scandalous many predicted it would end

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Speaker 1: her career. But we're also talking about the rise of

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Speaker 1: MTV and how together MTV and Madonna became a force

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Speaker 1: that would define eighties pop culture.

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Speaker 5: This is part one, Susie, I don't remember this moment

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Speaker 5: from real time, but I of course from watching clips

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Speaker 5: of it or seeing clips of it over and over

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Speaker 5: and over again because I was such a Madonna fan.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but there are so many Madonna moments, so why

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Speaker 4: this one?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you would have been really young, so

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Speaker 1: it doesn't surprise me that you didn't see this in

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Speaker 1: real time. I'm a little older than you, so I

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Speaker 1: do remember it when it happened. But also I've just

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Speaker 1: always loved Madonna and I loved MTV. Like early MTV

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Speaker 1: is hard to describe to people who are used to

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Speaker 1: current MTV. But MTV was so fun and it felt

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Speaker 1: so free, and it was a way to discover music

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Speaker 1: and artists. So this moment felt like a good way

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Speaker 1: to talk about two things that were really big cultural

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Speaker 1: influences on me. And Madonna herself is just amazing. I

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Speaker 1: was just like this huge fan I dressed liked her,

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Speaker 1: I loved the music, and I don't know if it

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Speaker 1: was conscious at the time because I was still pretty little,

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Speaker 1: but she sort of represented what it meant to be free, right,

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Speaker 1: Like what it was like to be cool and to

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Speaker 1: do whatever you wanted and to not listen to other

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Speaker 1: people Like it felt very liberating to me to love her,

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Speaker 1: and so I was thinking, I really want to do

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Speaker 1: a Madonna episode. But you can't do all of Madonna,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like you said, such a

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Speaker 1: prolific career. There have been so many chapters, and her

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Speaker 1: influence is so broad. So I was like, what could

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Speaker 1: I do that could just encapsulate one period or one

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Speaker 1: moment in her time? And this felt like a good

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Speaker 1: example of that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I totally agree.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's really hard to explain to someone growing

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Speaker 5: up today how cool MTV was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was really cool.

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Speaker 5: Even now, occasionally there's like weird channels or I'll find

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Speaker 5: them on Hulu that are playing just old MTV music

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Speaker 5: videos and I'm like, oh my god, oh my god,

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Speaker 5: and i feel like I'm thirteen again, because that was

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Speaker 5: how we got culture, I guess, and it was like,

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Speaker 5: I don't know what felt transgressive, and I just remember

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Speaker 5: going over to friends houses who had k and just

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Speaker 5: clapping down on the couch and sitting there for hours

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Speaker 5: and hours and hours, absolutely glued to the television, wanting

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Speaker 5: to memorize every little detail of every video and every song.

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Speaker 4: The big number one last week Salt and Pepper and

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Speaker 4: Bog Water Man. Yep, and we've got two hours of

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Speaker 4: the hottest videos in the country.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I think another thing that's important to

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Speaker 1: note is that we didn't have YouTube, We didn't have

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Speaker 1: access to video on demand. So getting to see your

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Speaker 1: favorite video was like really special. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yes, you had to race to the television, yes, and

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Speaker 4: you had to.

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Speaker 1: Like record it on VHS if you wanted to watch

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Speaker 1: it again. And when they debuted a video, it was

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Speaker 1: a big event.

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Speaker 2: Here is the planet's first look at smells like teen Spirit.

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Speaker 1: It's just really different when all you have is a

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Speaker 1: few channels on the television, and only one of them

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Speaker 1: is really geared towards you and the things you're interested in.

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Speaker 1: That's like four, we're in to someone growing up now.

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Speaker 5: Okay, so you know we're talking about this performance she

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Speaker 5: gave in nineteen eighty four, like a virgin. She's like

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Speaker 5: writhing around on the floor. It's you know, goes down

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Speaker 5: in history in many ways. And you're going to walk

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Speaker 5: us through all of that. But before we get deep

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Speaker 5: into it, who is Madonna in this year? She's not

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Speaker 5: yet a big star?

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Speaker 1: Is that right? Yeah, she's not a big star yet.

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Speaker 1: She's sort of an up and coming star. She's released

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Speaker 1: her first single.

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Speaker 6: The song that out on the radio right now, called Everybody.

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Speaker 6: It's about getting people could dance and lose their inhibition.

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Speaker 1: And in nineteen eighty two, just a couple of years

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Speaker 1: before this, it charted on the dance charts, but it

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Speaker 1: wasn't super mainstream, but it did help her get her

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Speaker 1: first album deal. Right, so she does have an album.

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Speaker 1: She's released an album at this point in July of

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three, and it's a great album. I just

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Speaker 1: want to say, I listened to it again this morning,

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Speaker 1: just to psych myself up. And it's just full of bangers, right,

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Speaker 1: Lucky Star Holiday border line, Like, she comes out of

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Speaker 1: the gate with this really strong album. But it debuted

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Speaker 1: on the Billboard charts at one ninety. Oh that's so surprising, okay,

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Speaker 1: Right in the United States, it wasn't that popular, and

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Speaker 1: it didn't peak until after this performance. After this performance,

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Speaker 1: it made it to number eight on the charts, I see.

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Speaker 1: And that was more than a year after it was released,

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Speaker 1: So you know, this is the performance that's going to

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Speaker 1: push her into superstardom. At this point, she's still kind

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Speaker 1: of like a known entity, but not by everyone. Holiday

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Speaker 1: as a great single. I think we're going to hear

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Speaker 1: a lot more of you such license, thank you, and

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Speaker 1: thanks for doing the interview.

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Speaker 6: You're welcome.

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Speaker 5: So that's interesting because if she wasn't huge at that moment,

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Speaker 5: why did MTV pick her to perform or how did

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Speaker 5: they have the fourth site to know that she was

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Speaker 5: going to be huge?

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Speaker 1: Well, Empty's audience was a little different than the mainstream

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Speaker 1: radio audience, right, That's one of the things MTV did

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Speaker 1: that was pretty unique is that they chose their artists

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Speaker 1: in a different way. Than the radio DJs did, and

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Speaker 1: Madonna was very much an MTV artist. She embraced music

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Speaker 1: videos really early, when a lot of other musicians were

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Speaker 1: extremely skeptical. She saw a potential in it.

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Speaker 4: It's so funny to think about now.

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Speaker 1: A lot of artists were really skeptical of MTV and

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Speaker 1: music videos. They felt like it was impinging on their

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Speaker 1: art in some way, Like there were like were these

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Speaker 1: lessons and like this is asking us to be actors.

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Speaker 5: Oh god, it's like if we could go back to that, honestly,

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Speaker 5: like now everyone has to be actor anyway, Kerry.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah. And actually, there's this amazing video you can

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Speaker 1: find on YouTube where Madonna is on a panel at

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Speaker 1: some music conference in nineteen eighty four and they're talking

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Speaker 1: about the rise of MTV and music videos and all

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Speaker 1: the other musicians are complaining about it, and Madonna is

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Speaker 1: pushing back.

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Speaker 6: You could be reaching a lot of people that would

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Speaker 6: never be able to come and see you live, So

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Speaker 6: I think that definitely an advantage.

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Speaker 1: She's really the least famous person on this panel, but

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Speaker 1: in true Madonna fashion, she interrupts James Brown at one points.

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Speaker 6: I'm sorry, but you know, kids today worship the television,

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Speaker 6: So I think it's a great way to reach them.

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Speaker 1: Honestly. The funniest part is that she gets into it

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Speaker 1: with John Oates of Holland Oates. They would, by the way,

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Speaker 1: go on to completely embrace music videos and performed at

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Speaker 1: the same VMAs where Madonna performed like a Virgin. But

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Speaker 1: here John Oates is very against the idea of music

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Speaker 1: videos because he is a serious musician as far as

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Speaker 1: I'm concerned. You know, I always wanted to be a musician,

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Speaker 1: and you know, to me, that's still my purpose.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: But listen, when you perform on stage, you're acting. I mean,

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Speaker 6: that's a performance. So what's I mean if someone puts

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Speaker 6: a cam on you, what's the difference?

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Speaker 1: So she really saw the potential, right, And that's partially

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Speaker 1: because a lot of her early career was tied to

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Speaker 1: the culture in New York in those early years that

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Speaker 1: she got here, and there were a ton of filmmakers

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Speaker 1: around her and artists, and so she was just really

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Speaker 1: comfortable with the medium. She was comfortable being on camera. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to tell you about all of that,

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Speaker 1: but I want to finish telling you about the performance first.

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Speaker 4: Yes, Okay, So back to the performance.

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Speaker 5: You know, you said in the intro that like a

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Speaker 5: Virgin hadn't actually been released yet, so it's interesting or

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Speaker 5: I guess is it interesting?

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Speaker 4: Tell me that she chose to perform that song on stage.

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Speaker 1: It is interesting, and I think it's really unusual. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure that MTV or your label would let.

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Speaker 5: You do that now because it's like a debut, right

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Speaker 5: She's debuting it on stage kind of.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and she debuts a song and people are obsessed

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Speaker 1: with it, but they can't buy it. That's why her

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Speaker 1: album goes back on the charts, because they're like, this

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Speaker 1: is an amazing song, and when they go to record stores,

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Speaker 1: I need more. You can download it, so it's not

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Speaker 1: available right away. She chose to sing this, I think

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Speaker 1: because she was really anxious to release it. You know,

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Speaker 1: this performance was in September. The song itself isn't released

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Speaker 1: until the end of October, and she knew knew it

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Speaker 1: was going to be a big hit. She suspected that

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Speaker 1: it was going to really resonate, and she was anxious

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Speaker 1: to get it out and she was saying to people,

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Speaker 1: I'm anxious to get it out, but her record label

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Speaker 1: didn't want her to release it until the previous album

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Speaker 1: had kind of peaked and valleyed, because they wanted to

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Speaker 1: take as much advantage of that as possible. So it

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Speaker 1: kind of makes sense that they wanted her to wait

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Speaker 1: and that she didn't, And I think she just convinced

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Speaker 1: MTV to let her do it. And at the time,

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Speaker 1: the labels didn't think of MTV as that important, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: they wouldn't have argued with her about it. They would

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Speaker 1: be like, yeah, perform whatever you want on that like

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Speaker 1: silly thing on that channel that like teens watch.

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Speaker 4: You know, that's so interesting.

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Speaker 1: So I want to tell you a couple other things

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Speaker 1: about the song, which I think are fascinating and I

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Speaker 1: learned through this process. The song was actually written by

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Speaker 1: two men. One of them had recently started a new

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Speaker 1: relationship and he wanted to like describe how amazing it

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Speaker 1: felt to be in a relationship again after a rough patch.

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Speaker 1: So all of the double entendres that you hear when

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Speaker 1: Madonna sings it, they weren't really intended in the song,

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Speaker 1: and it was written for a man to sing. They

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Speaker 1: thought a man would likely sing it. They just happened

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Speaker 1: to play it for a record executive and then that

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Speaker 1: record executive happened the next day to me meeting with Madonna,

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Speaker 1: so he has this idea that it might work for her.

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Speaker 1: He plays her the demo and she immediately gets it.

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Speaker 1: She's immediately like, this song will be amazing. I want

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Speaker 1: to record it.

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Speaker 5: It's so perfect because it's you think that she has

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Speaker 5: written and I mean, I didn't know it was written

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Speaker 5: by two men, but like you, it's the it is her,

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Speaker 5: like that song is her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because she's gotten to writing credit on

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Speaker 1: almost every song, or maybe every song she's ever sung.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's because even when other people write

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Speaker 1: music for her, she's very involved in the process of

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Speaker 1: making it her own. So I think all her music

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Speaker 1: sounds like she's written it, even though you know she's herself.

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Speaker 1: Would admit she's not a musician in that way. She

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Speaker 1: doesn't write the music, but she has a very clear

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Speaker 1: sense of what she likes and what she thinks is

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Speaker 1: going to work for her and her point of view.

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Speaker 1: It's not even really just about the music. It's like

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Speaker 1: about the story she wants to tell at any given time.

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Speaker 5: I mean, that's a perfect entree into the performance itself.

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Speaker 5: I haven't watched it in a while, and I assume

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Speaker 5: listeners haven't either.

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Speaker 4: Can you describe it for us?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'd be happy too, because I've watched it

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Speaker 1: like ninety times in the last three weeks. I just

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Speaker 1: keep watching it over and over again.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the first annual MTV Video Music Awards Show.

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Speaker 1: So the performance starts and Madonna is dressed kind of

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Speaker 1: like a rock and roll bride, right, And she's standing

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Speaker 1: on top of this seventeen foot three layer wedding cake.

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Speaker 1: And there's a mannequin next to her dressed as a groom,

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Speaker 1: So it's like a bride and groom on top of

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Speaker 1: a cake. And she has on a veil and she's

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Speaker 1: holding a bouquet and she starts singing, and it starts

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Speaker 1: with a real close up of her and it sort

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Speaker 1: of pulls out and as she sings, she kicks off

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Speaker 1: her heels and they land in front of the cake.

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Speaker 1: This will matter later, and she starts walking down the

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Speaker 1: cake using the layers as steps, okay, And she pulls

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Speaker 1: back her veil and you see that she's wearing all

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Speaker 1: these necklaces, one of which is a cross, right, and

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Speaker 1: she has on this white belt.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's like I can see it.

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Speaker 1: I can see it, And the belt buckle says boy toy, which, incidentally,

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Speaker 1: I learned in my research was her graffiti tag because

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Speaker 1: when she was living in New York, graffiti had become

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Speaker 1: a big art form and she was dating Bascyat and

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Speaker 1: she was really close to Keith Herring, who were both

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Speaker 1: really into graffiti. So she had her own graffiti tag

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Speaker 1: and it was ironically boy toy.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 5: So it's like every little detail of that outfit is

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Speaker 5: so meticulously thought her.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and also just tells you a story about Madonna

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Speaker 1: and where she was at that time. So she's an

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Speaker 1: all white lace and there's like Cooca dot tool in

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Speaker 1: her dress, and she's wearing a bustille with spaghetti straps,

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Speaker 1: and she's wearing the fingerless gloves. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I mean we all had a pair of those, right,

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Speaker 5: Like everyone did. It became that classic look.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was the very classic Madonna look that all

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Speaker 1: the little girls emulated. And when most people dress up

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Speaker 1: as Madonna for Halloween, they put on right. I've definitely

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Speaker 1: done that. And you can see in the performance that

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Speaker 1: she already knows how to work a camera. At times,

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Speaker 1: she looks straight into it in a way that can

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Speaker 1: only be described as extremely seductive. Like I can't think

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Speaker 1: of another way to describe it. But she's working the camera,

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Speaker 1: which a lot of people just didn't know how to

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Speaker 1: do yet. Right, she's conscious of where it is. She

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Speaker 1: knows how to move in a way that it's going

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Speaker 1: to capture her in the ways that are most flattering.

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Speaker 1: And as she starts to walk down the cake, she

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Speaker 1: takes off the veil and she takes down her hair.

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Speaker 1: Her hair's up and she sort of like takes out

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Speaker 1: the thing that's holding it and she shakes it out

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Speaker 1: the way you do when you're getting ready for bed.

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Speaker 1: And even that a scene at the time is a

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Speaker 1: little risque, right, Like she's.

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Speaker 4: It's not progressed. It's not how you shake your hair

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Speaker 4: when you're going to bed.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, of course, it's like when you're getting

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Speaker 5: ready to jump into bed with someone.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I know. It's also that like classic librarian thing

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Speaker 1: whenever they want to make a librarian hot. She like

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Speaker 1: takes down her hair and she shakes it.

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Speaker 5: There is a name, by the way, I forget what

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Speaker 5: it is, but there is a name for that shaking

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Speaker 5: down of the butt.

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Speaker 1: Oh, really oh amazing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it was like a trope name for it. Anyway,

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Speaker 4: carry amazing.

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Speaker 1: And so when she gets to the bottom of the cake,

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Speaker 1: she drops to the floor and she lays on her

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Speaker 1: back for a second, and you see that she's grabbing

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Speaker 1: her white stiletto heels and putting them on, sort of

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Speaker 1: off camera.

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Speaker 4: Oh so she's like putting them back on because she's

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Speaker 4: thrown them off.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she threw them off to be able to walk

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Speaker 1: down this like really kind of precarious cake, to be honest.

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Speaker 1: And so now she's putting them on and the camera's

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Speaker 1: focused on her face. So the next time you see her,

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Speaker 1: the shoes are back on her feet and she throws

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Speaker 1: the bouquet into the crowd. And when she went down

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Speaker 1: for the heels, she did lie down for a second.

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Speaker 1: She sort of like laid down, so when she was

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Speaker 1: putting them on, it wasn't so noticeable that she was

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Speaker 1: putting them back on. But now she's on her feet,

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Speaker 1: and she's on her feet for some amount of time,

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Speaker 1: and then she decides to go back down to the

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Speaker 1: floor and she throws her veil onto the stage and

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Speaker 1: she gets down and she does what I think can

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Speaker 1: only be described as writhing or rolling around on the floor.

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Speaker 1: She sort of similates sex by thrusting her hips and

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Speaker 1: at the end she's crawling around and the skirt rides

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Speaker 1: up to her waist and the camera gets a picture

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Speaker 1: of essentially her legs and her garter belts and her butt.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know how else to say this. It's

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Speaker 1: sort of just like under butt, Like it's not her

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Speaker 1: full butt, even though that's what everyone would say after.

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Speaker 4: This, because she's wearing underwear.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's wearing underwear, so you're just seeing her long ray. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I mean you can't really see the underwear. It's just

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Speaker 1: like I think it's just white lace underwear. But she

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Speaker 1: has these garter belts on and you see your hose,

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Speaker 1: so it's not that crazy. But at the time it's

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Speaker 1: considered wildly inappropriate. And as she's lying there on the

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Speaker 1: ground on her back, the camera cuts to black.

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Speaker 4: So are people like going wild? Is the audience screaming?

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Speaker 7: Like?

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Speaker 4: Are what's the reaction?

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Speaker 6: Like?

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Speaker 5: Is it actually as scandalous as I don't know, you

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Speaker 5: made it sound like it doesn't sound that scandalous, But

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Speaker 5: was it considered scandless?

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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty four, it was considered scandalless. So, I mean,

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Speaker 1: the audience just claps like normal. They're not like on

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Speaker 1: their feet and freaking out there. It's a regular sort

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Speaker 1: of clapping. And then I mean, who are these people?

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Speaker 1: Get on your feet? I don't know, but you know,

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Speaker 1: and then immediately it goes to commercial. But you're right

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Speaker 1: that it wouldn't be considered a wild performance today. It

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Speaker 1: was seen as extremely controversial. But people have come out

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Speaker 1: in much less clothing since this, Right, there's like the

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Speaker 1: Brittany with the snake, and Madonna herself has done performances

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Speaker 1: that have been far more risque since this. But you

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Speaker 1: have to think about that. Even at that time, the

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Speaker 1: fact that the song used the word virgin was seen

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Speaker 1: as a provocation. So then suddenly pairing it with a

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Speaker 1: wedding dress and a cross and showing some skin is

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Speaker 1: considered just beyond what is acceptable. And in the video

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Speaker 1: that's available now, you don't see the crowd reaction shots, right,

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Speaker 1: You just see them clapping and then it goes to

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Speaker 1: the commercial. But reporting at the time said that people

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Speaker 1: were literally aghast. Her longtime publicist Liz Rosenberg, said that

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Speaker 1: people were gasping in the audience. Oh really, okay, and

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Speaker 1: that Madonna took it so much further than anyone knew

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Speaker 1: she was capable of.

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Speaker 4: Oh interesting, okay, So maybe they were a guess, we

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Speaker 4: just didn't see it.

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Speaker 1: You just don't see it because unlike now where they

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Speaker 1: have made a point to like go to the audience

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Speaker 1: and show your reaction, they just weren't that sophisticated at

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Speaker 1: the time.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a good point too. It's like this is

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Speaker 5: a different kind of camera work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, than we would expect now, because now they would

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Speaker 1: be prepared, they would wanted to assume a shot in

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Speaker 1: a house. So and so reacted exactly. And another example,

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Speaker 1: just so you get a sense of what the reaction was.

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Speaker 1: A cultural critic at the Philly Inquirer wrote at the

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Speaker 1: time that despite the fact that people think rock musicians

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Speaker 1: and rock industry people are you know, jaded and decadent

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Speaker 1: and nothing can shock them, that in fact, the crowd

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Speaker 1: looked absolutely shocked, and that you know, co host Bet Midler,

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Speaker 1: who herself was seen as you know, a little provocative,

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Speaker 1: was moved afterwards to roll her eyes and make a

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Speaker 1: few a few remarks about Madonna's virginity.

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Speaker 4: Oh interesting. Yeah, I wish we knew what those were,

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Speaker 4: but I'm sure they're not.

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Speaker 1: I tried to find them, honestly, because I thought it

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Speaker 1: would be really funny to play them. But I haven't

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Speaker 1: been able to uncover that particular of the award show.

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Speaker 1: But you know, this Philly Inquirer critic basically makes the

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Speaker 1: point that the rock business must now be conservative because

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Speaker 1: look how they responded to this, which is kind of

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Speaker 1: a funny idea, right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's worth noting or contextualizing a little

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Speaker 5: bit what was happening in the eighties. This is the

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Speaker 5: Reagan era, the whole like traditional family values thing.

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Speaker 8: Family life has changed much down through the years. The

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Speaker 8: days when we could expect to live in only one

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Speaker 8: home and hold only one job or probably gone forever.

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Speaker 8: Perhaps we will not go back to the old family ways,

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Speaker 8: but I think we can and should preserve family values.

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Speaker 5: So it's not shocking in some way to think people

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Speaker 5: would be scandalized by this in nineteen eighty four, whereas

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Speaker 5: had this performance occurred in nineteen sixty nine, it would

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Speaker 5: stock or something like.

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Speaker 4: Maybe that wouldn't have been the case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think, yes, very much. The Reagan era,

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Speaker 1: which starts in eighty one when he's elected president, and

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Speaker 1: he remains in office until eighty nine, so he's really

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Speaker 1: president for all of the eighties. And you think about it,

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Speaker 1: and that era was very much a reaction to the

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Speaker 1: civil rights and feminist movements, and he was an extremely

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Speaker 1: popular president, probably the most popular Republican president. And some

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Speaker 1: could argue whether or not Trump is as popular as Reagan.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of evidence he is not,

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Speaker 1: because Reagan really appealed even to moderates, right They felt

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Speaker 1: like he was this kind of goofy actor turned politician.

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Speaker 8: Tomorrow is my birthday, and I prefer to think of

438
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,240
Speaker 8: it as the thirty sixth anniversary of my thirty ninth,

439
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 8: but I'll be just about due for a midlife crisis.

440
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:40,160
Speaker 1: He exudes this very wholesome americanism, and what he's sort

441
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,960
Speaker 1: of reassuring Americans of is that we're going to go

442
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 1: back to family values, traditional family values, whatever that means.

443
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 5: So Madonna with her cross and the virginal yes, the

444
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,439
Speaker 5: virginal whore on top of the wedding cake with her

445
00:21:54,560 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 5: cross strutting down onto the stage is not considered traditional

446
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 5: family value.

447
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 1: Is not considered traditional family values. And actually, to prepare

448
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 1: for this episode, I read this great new book about

449
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 1: Madonna from the renowned biographer Mary Gabriel. The book is

450
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 1: called Madonna, a Rebel Life, and she's written a lot

451
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 1: of books about remarkable women. I highly recommend it. It's

452
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 1: an excellent book, and in it she actually talked a

453
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,399
Speaker 1: little bit about what this era was like.

454
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,640
Speaker 3: Oh great for young people who don't understand that time.

455
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,440
Speaker 3: It was a time of extreme reaction, conservative reaction. It

456
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 3: was a time when the conservative movement really gained leverage

457
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 3: within the Reagan administration to turn back the clock on

458
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:44,919
Speaker 3: reforms legislatively and politically and socially. So any social advances

459
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 3: that had been made that freed people and made actually

460
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 3: post war freedoms, whether it's financial equality, the labor union's

461
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 3: sexual equality, racial equality, whatever had been achieved up to

462
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,959
Speaker 3: let's say the seventies, all came under attack by conservatives.

463
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 3: I mean, they really, you know, we know this phrase,

464
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 3: they played the long game. That phrase wasn't used in

465
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 3: but that's what they were doing.

466
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 5: So it's interesting because it almost feels significant that Madonna

467
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 5: is perhaps I mean, I think, knowing what we know

468
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,159
Speaker 5: of her now this probably becomes true challenging that with

469
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 5: this performance, Reagan was very much focused on preserving the

470
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 5: sanctity of the traditional family. And I'm sure Madonna, who

471
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 5: had you know, was like gallivanting around New York City

472
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 5: in the late seventies and early eighties in this like

473
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 5: very specific time of artists and free love is pushing

474
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:37,439
Speaker 5: against that.

475
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, very much. And interestingly, her initial idea for this

476
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 1: performance was also out there, but probably wouldn't have been

477
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 1: so challenging to that worldview. The wedding cake was actually

478
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: her second choice for our prop. She initially wanted to

479
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 1: sing the song to a tiger, but the producers obviously

480
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: were like, no, be serious, we can't have it like time,

481
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: like a live tiger, like a giant. And she's like,

482
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: singing the song to the tiger, yes, like if the

483
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: tiger was the one who was making her feel like

484
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: a version, oh.

485
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 5: Okay, And so that that's so interesting because that weill

486
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,239
Speaker 5: wild and dangerous and whatever like wouldn't have actually been

487
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 5: as controversial.

488
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: So it wouldn't have been but obviously the producers are like,

489
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: it's too dangerous, like the tiger could kill.

490
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 5: Someone pre Britney Snake era, Yes, pre Britney snak era, Right, they.

491
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 4: Don't want to get mauled by a tiger.

492
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 1: And so just five days before the performance, she goes

493
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: back to them and says, how about this seventeen foot cake?

494
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: She had recently done something like this at a party

495
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: and it had been this big success, and so the

496
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 1: producer say that they built the cake for her, even

497
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 1: though it put them over budget.

498
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 5: Okay, that is such an important detail. And also that

499
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 5: made me remember, isn't there some sort of maybe a

500
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 5: lion or like some other large cat in the music

501
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 5: video for the Yes?

502
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: In the music video she does get her wild cat.

503
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: She gets a lion and she sings to it. But

504
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 1: you know, it's still sort of like tied a little

505
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: bit to this performance. And in fact what happens is

506
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: a lot of times MTV actually just runs this performance

507
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: as the music video because it's such a popular moment.

508
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 4: But why the cake? Like, what did this cake represent

509
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 4: to her?

510
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 8: Do we know?

511
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, we do know, and in fact we know because

512
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 1: of Mary Gabriel. She wrote a lot about this performance

513
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: in the book I mentioned, and she discovered something interesting

514
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: in her research.

515
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 3: Her idea was that she was going to make a

516
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 3: comment on marriage about how when you're on the top

517
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 3: of the cake, in other words, just getting married, everything

518
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 3: is so wonderful and rosy and dreamlike and gauzy and pure.

519
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 3: But as she came down the cake, it was like

520
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 3: Dante's Inferno. You know, she went through the various layers

521
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 3: of marriage, you know, and by the time she got

522
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,959
Speaker 3: to the floor, it was, you know, she was well

523
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 3: acquainted with what marriage really was, and so she started

524
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 3: rolling around on the floor and you know, kind of

525
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 3: writhing mock masturbation, and you know, it was classic Madonna.

526
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 5: I love hearing how deliberate her choices are and how

527
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 5: she's always focused on telling a story. Like these are

528
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 5: things that I think we assume about Madonna. But Mary

529
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 5: Gabriel really.

530
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: Uncovered this, yes, because this had never been published before.

531
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: It was part of the reporter's notes that she got

532
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: access to for her book. So I love this detail.

533
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: It's one that's never really been discussed. And I do

534
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: think at the time people thought Madonna was manufactured in

535
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: some way, like they felt like, you know, she was

536
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: a pop star. Maybe the record labels were making her decisions,

537
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: maybe this or that, But the reality is she always

538
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 1: had real intention behind the choices she made, and they

539
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: were her choices, right, And it really speaks to that

540
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 1: when you think about this, right, this is a really

541
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: complex setup for this what seems like just an off

542
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: the cuff performance.

543
00:26:48,640 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 5: There's a lot of messages, yeah, wrapped into this one performance. Okay,

544
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 5: so we know that people are apparently aghast in the audience,

545
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 5: although we don't see it on their faces if you

546
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 5: watch the video back now. But has Madonna ever talked

547
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 5: about what immediately happens after that performance.

548
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 1: She has talked about it, and in fact, she talked

549
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: about it recently in twenty twenty one. She was on

550
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: Howard Stern's show, and here's what she said.

551
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 9: After I got off stage during that performance, my manager

552
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 9: was white as a ghost, and he looked at me

553
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 9: and said, do you know what you just did? And

554
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 9: I said, yeah, I sang a song and I lost

555
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 9: my shoe on stage and he's like, no, your butt

556
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 9: was showing for the entire song.

557
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: Your career is over. Wow.

558
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 5: So I wonder if she freaked out that he says that,

559
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 5: or is she like, I'm Madonna, I'll do anything, you know.

560
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: She says she wasn't even then, even that early in

561
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: her career. She says, you know, I wasn't that apologetic.

562
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: I was just like, well, fuck it, I made a mistake.

563
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 4: You don't go somewhere and crying say I just lost

564
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 4: my career. No that, but also interesting that she did

565
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 4: consider it a mistake, at least it first.

566
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like she really ever questioned her choices, right,

567
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 1: She comes into this with so much confidence. She has

568
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,719
Speaker 1: sort of this inherent confidence that she's making the right

569
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 1: decisions even if men, you know, and it's usually men

570
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: can't see her vision. And that's I think something about

571
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: her I really admire, Like I feel like I have

572
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: so many doubts.

573
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 5: Well, as you're saying this, I'm like, god, I need

574
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 5: to like put a Madonna slogan up on my computer

575
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 5: screen to be like, no, actually, you know what the

576
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 5: fuck you're doing?

577
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, truly, because I feel like I spent all of

578
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: my life second guessing myself. Like it's amazing that she

579
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: doesn't have that quality. What a gift in her life.

580
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: But either way, her team obviously realizes that she's pushed

581
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: the envelope maybe too far this time, and they come

582
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: up with this explanation for how she ended up on

583
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: the ground with her skirt around her waist. And I

584
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: have to tell you that I've heard her tell the

585
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: story in many different arenas over the course of many years,

586
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: and she told it as recently is twenty twenty two

587
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: on Jimmy fallon and she must believe it at this

588
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: point here she is talking about what happened when she

589
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: got to the bottom of the giant wedding cake.

590
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 7: My white still little pumps fell off and I was

591
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 7: trying to do like the smooth move, like dive for

592
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 7: the shoe and make it look like it was choreography. Yeah,

593
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 7: and my dress flipped up and my butt was showing.

594
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 7: Can't imagine happened by accident. I didn't even know my

595
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 7: butt was showing.

596
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 4: Wait, okay, this is so interesting.

597
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 5: So has this explanation then been concocted to like justify it.

598
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: Well, that is the official story. She has told many

599
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: times that she fell onto the ground because she was

600
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: trying to retrieve her shoe.

601
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 5: I mean, I guess it is somewhat believable that she

602
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 5: would be trying to like sexily and without causing a pause,

603
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 5: put back on the shoes wallowed the floor, but also

604
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 5: doing it.

605
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 4: In this way.

606
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, But Mary Gabriel tells a different story in her

607
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: book when.

608
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 3: She starts to roll around on the floor her shoes around.

609
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 3: You know, I think that that scenario was something her

610
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 3: manager cooked up to kind of justify her having performed

611
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 3: this what was at the time considered incredibly leude act

612
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 3: where her dress rode up and you know, her underwear

613
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 3: was showed, and I mean it was an absolutely chaste

614
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 3: performance by today's standards. It wasn't just that her bottom

615
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 3: was exposed. It was that she was obviously a lustful

616
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 3: woman satisfying herself, not overtly masturbating. But that was the implication.

617
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 3: And for that to happen on TV at that time,

618
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 3: to have this young gorgeous woman saying, you know what, guys,

619
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 3: I don't need you. You know, I can satisfy myself.

620
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 3: You can keep your wedding cake. That was a message

621
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 3: too far.

622
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 5: Okay, So I didn't realize there was like this whole

623
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 5: back and forth theory about the shoes. Yeah, you've obviously

624
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 5: watched the performance a lot of times. Now do you

625
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 5: agree with Mary's assessment? Like where I guess it's the

626
00:30:59,080 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 5: question is the shoe?

627
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 6: So is that right?

628
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean to be honest, I have watched it

629
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: a lot, and her shoes were definitely on her feet

630
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: when she went down the second time.

631
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 4: Okay, so the quiet, okay, right, let me just clarify.

632
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 5: So the question is whether the shoes are already on

633
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 5: her feet when she goes down the second time, or

634
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 5: if she's putting them on her feet and thus has

635
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 5: to like writhe around in order to do stuff.

636
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,959
Speaker 1: Yes, the story she's telling is that her shoes were

637
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: off her feet, so she went down to put them

638
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: back on. She tried to make it look like it

639
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: was choreography, and that's why she's riding around on the floor.

640
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 5: But that's which makes sense for the first time she

641
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 5: goes down, but the second time she goes down, it

642
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 5: does not make sense for the second time.

643
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: That's why I was so clear when we were walking

644
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: through it to be like, these shoes are going to matter,

645
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: because okay, she kicks off the shoes at the top

646
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: of the cake so she can walk down, But once

647
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: she gets on the ground, she puts her shoes back on,

648
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: and there's a significant amount of the performance where she's

649
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: walking around.

650
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 4: In them in the shoes, and then she lays back

651
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 4: down on the floor.

652
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: And then the part that really scandalizes people is this

653
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: crawling around and a stimulating sex and her shoes are

654
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: firm on that entire day. I got it, okay, But

655
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: I think in a way this also explains something about Madonna,

656
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: which is that she's very good at bending reality to

657
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: her will. You know, she's really very willing to sort

658
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: of be like, no, this is what happened, and she

659
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: has said it so many times that I think most

660
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: people believe that this whole section of the performance that

661
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: got her in trouble was just a mistake, and so

662
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: she was given a little bit of a pass for it.

663
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 4: Okay.

664
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 5: This is actually reminded me of something that I think

665
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 5: we didn't mention yet, which is that Madonna was not

666
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 5: only at the VMA's to perform like a version, she

667
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 5: was actually nominated for Best New Artist in a Video

668
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 5: for the video for Borderline.

669
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: Yes, she was nominated for Borderline. She ended up losing

670
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: to Annie Lennox and the Eurythmics, but you know, she

671
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: kind of stole the show, and it turns out that

672
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: Annie Lennox was not very gracious in her victory. Really,

673
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: after the show, someone asked Annie Lennox out this performance

674
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: by Madonna, and she describes it as very very horrish. Wow,

675
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: she says something like it was like she was fucking

676
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: the music industry. It might have been a parody on

677
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: her part, but I thought it was very low.

678
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 4: Whoa, it's like she's won.

679
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 5: I'm so confused by this because analytics and the rhythmics

680
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 5: have won, so like, why bother making a nasty comment

681
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 5: about the loser?

682
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 4: Anyway, Fine, I love them both, but fascinating.

683
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: Well, whatever analytics thought, she was wrong, because this performance

684
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: really does end upsetting the bar for every performance that

685
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: comes after it at the VMA's. In fact, every year

686
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: after this, artists have just tried to top Madonna by

687
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: being even more outrageous.

688
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 5: Okay, so let's talk a little bit more about the VMAs.

689
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 5: So this was the first year, but here we are

690
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 5: twenty twenty four. They're still around forty years later, and

691
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 5: there have been many I guess I don't know what

692
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 5: you want to call them, outrageous, iconic, staged wild moments

693
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 5: Like we've talked in a previous episode about Madonna kissing

694
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 5: Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera. That was like certainly stage,

695
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 5: but you know they're they are all kind of trying

696
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 5: to top each other.

697
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: And there's also the most maybe famous one which was

698
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: not stage, which is when Kanye stole the mic from

699
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: t Square.

700
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 4: Right, thank you so much for giving me a chance

701
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 4: to win a VMA Award.

702
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 1: No, Taylor, I'm really happy for you.

703
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 2: I'ma let you finish.

704
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: But Beyonce had one of the best videos of all time.

705
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 5: I also remember Lady Gaga in the meat dress, like

706
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 5: that was a huge moment about our fashion moment met

707
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 5: there was Miley cyrus turking with Robin Thick in that

708
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 5: Blurred Lines performance.

709
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 4: I'm sure there's so many, so many right.

710
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: Now, we mentioned one earlier. There's Brittany in the Snake.

711
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 4: There's always something or and if there's not, like that's

712
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 4: a problem for them.

713
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a bad year for the MS if they

714
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: haven't made any noise.

715
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 5: So that first year, the Madonna year, what were the

716
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 5: awards like or what were the performances like beyond Madonna?

717
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 5: Like was it just all tame or were they kind

718
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 5: of figuring it all out? And then they had this

719
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 5: performance like what else was happening? So I've actually watched

720
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 5: as much of the first year's ceremony as I could.

721
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 5: I've found as many clips of it as are available

722
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 5: on YouTube. It's really hard because there isn't like a

723
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 5: single start to finish recording of this, and I'm so

724
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 5: sad about it.

725
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: I really wish I could have found it. These awards

726
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: take place on September fourteenth and nineteen eighty four. It's

727
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 1: a totally live performance, so you know, they don't tape

728
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: it and re err it or anything. And it's at

729
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 1: Radio City Music Hall. And it's probably worth noting that

730
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: MTV was only three years old at this point. It

731
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: was pretty popular already, and it had close to twenty

732
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: four million viewers. But the awards were supposed to be

733
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: kind of a joke. They were meant to be ironic,

734
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 1: you know. Les Garland, one of the founding executives of MTV,

735
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: has said the original thought was to make a mockery

736
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 1: of all award shows. So it surprised us.

737
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 5: So when people took it seriously, Okay, you know who

738
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 5: else performed that year.

739
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: Well, bat Meddler and Dan Ackward were the hosts, and

740
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: performers included Rod Stewart, Tina Turner's Ezy top Holland oates

741
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 1: the famously.

742
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 4: Anti music video music stars Yeah, Huey.

743
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: Lewis and the News, which was very big at the time,

744
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: which people may have forgotten about. And of course Madonna

745
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: she was the least famous of the performers. This was

746
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,959
Speaker 1: really one of her first big TV appearances. In fact,

747
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: her first big TV appearance was on American Bandstand.

748
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 8: This lady started out as a dancer, went to New York,

749
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 8: went to Paris, worked with bands, came back as a

750
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 8: single and is she hot? This is Madonna.

751
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: It's so funny to watch it now because it's just

752
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: like a bunch of white kids like dancing around. And

753
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: even that was controversial because at the end he said

754
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: to her, like what comes next for you? What are

755
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 1: your dreams? What's like to rule the world?

756
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,720
Speaker 4: There you go, ladies and gentlemen, this is Madonna.

757
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: And people were shocked that she was so presumptuous as

758
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: to want to rule the world.

759
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 5: Okay, And so, just to reiterate for the kids listening, yeah, MTV, Like,

760
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 5: how did you describe how big a cultural impact MTV

761
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 5: had on like our generation.

762
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: Well, let me give you a little background on MTV

763
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 1: stuff that I didn't know, so I think it's interesting.

764
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 1: So MTV was launched on August first in nineteen eighty one.

765
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 5: There were exactly one month older than me. Oh amazing,

766
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 5: I'm literally the MTV generation. You are You are the

767
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 5: MTV generation.

768
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: Well, you might actually be a little young to be

769
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: the MTV generation because yah, I guess the MTV generation

770
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 1: were the teenagers who watched those fast two years of MTV.

771
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: So it was kind of this ragtag operation, like a

772
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 1: couple of executives who thought that this would be a

773
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 1: relatively cheap way to reach teenagers. That there was no

774
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: TV for teenagers at the time, and they only had

775
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: about one hundred videos to choose from because artists didn't

776
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 1: make were making music videos like that didn't exist as

777
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: an art form. And even though the studios were based

778
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: in New York, it was initially only available on cable

779
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 1: channels in New Jersey. So really yeah, so only a

780
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,280
Speaker 1: few thousand people on a single cable system in northern

781
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 1: New Jersey could see it. In fact, oh my god,

782
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: I read somewhere that to watch the launch, the executives

783
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: had to drive to New Jersey.

784
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 5: Such such a fun fact. If I was from New Jersey,

785
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 5: I would be using that fact.

786
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing, And the first few hours on the

787
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: channel are themselves like very iconic moments in pop culture

788
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: ten nine eight. It starts with the footage of a

789
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: rocket launching.

790
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 8: Five four.

791
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 4: We've gone from main engine starts.

792
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: We have reded, and a voice says, and I can

793
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: hear this voice in my head because they used to

794
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: use this voice a lot on the channel. Ladies channlemen

795
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,439
Speaker 1: rock and roll. And then the first video plays, which

796
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: is the song video Killed the Radio Star. The song

797
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: is from this band, the Buggles, I think that's how

798
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: it's pronounced, which was a British new wave band. This

799
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,919
Speaker 1: was their biggest and maybe only hit. And the rest

800
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: of the launch is a mix of music videos and

801
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,280
Speaker 1: introductions hyping up how high tech this all.

802
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 6: Is, announcing the latest achievement in home entertainment, the power

803
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 6: of sight, video, the power of sound MTV.

804
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 1: Music tele and all of the programming was guided by hosts,

805
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: or as they called the VJs, which you know, is

806
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,720
Speaker 1: like the video version of a DJ.

807
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 2: Welcome to MTV Music Television, the world's first twenty four

808
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 2: hour stereo video music channel.

809
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: They would go on to become household names like I

810
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,760
Speaker 1: don't know if you remember, but we knew the names

811
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 1: of vj's on MTV growing up and back in nineteen

812
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 1: eighty one. They were just introducing the concept in this

813
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: grandiose way.

814
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 2: The best of TV combined with the best of radio

815
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,399
Speaker 2: starting right now. You'll never look at music the same way.

816
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 4: Again, that's amazing, okay.

817
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 5: And so if they only had about one hundred music

818
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 5: videos to choose from, did they even were.

819
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 4: They calling them music videos?

820
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 7: Then?

821
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 4: Like, what where were they finding these things?

822
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 1: Well, a lot of the videos came from abroad, actually,

823
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 1: so they found clips or videos that had been made

824
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: by bands in other countries. In fact, one of the

825
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: things that MTV did is really bring a lot of

826
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: British music to the States because that wasn't really being

827
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: played on the radio. It's considered sort of the second

828
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: British invasion. And it is just true that music videos

829
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: the way we think about them genuinely did not exist.

830
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,720
Speaker 1: I know that's hard to believe, but you know, shows

831
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 1: that focused on music, like American Bandstand, which launched in

832
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: fifty seven and was such a huge and popular show,

833
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: they just featured live performances. So when there was a video.

834
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: It was considered a short film before this. And one

835
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: of the things that was so funny in the research

836
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: is that reporters couldn't figure out how to describe what

837
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: music videos were when the channel launched. And I found

838
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: this amazing clip when Time magazine tried to describe it

839
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: to its readers. This is how they did it. The

840
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: main ingredients in MTV's programming are video records or videos

841
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: colon current recordings illustrated by three or four minute video tape.

842
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,879
Speaker 5: Oh my god, did you watch that video colin current

843
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,240
Speaker 5: recordings posted by three or four minute video tapes?

844
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: Wow?

845
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 4: That's me. I love archives.

846
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: Oh and I have to tell you the other detail

847
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 1: I love is that because it was literally like a

848
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: person who was just like inserting tapes into a VCR

849
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: in the early years, sometimes the screen would go black

850
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: when someone was changing.

851
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 5: Out changing the v Oh my gosh, changing the tape

852
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:02,240
Speaker 5: in the VCR. Yes, Can we go back to that time? Honestly,

853
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 5: it just feels like such a simpler time.

854
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: I mean, it was a simpler time, but there were

855
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: lots of horrible things happening back then too. There was

856
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 1: the AIDS crisis. I mean, I think That's what's kind

857
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: of interesting about the era, right, is like, in some

858
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: ways it does feel simpler, but part of it is

859
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,800
Speaker 1: because there was this aura of oh, everything's fine, but

860
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: underneath it, there were a lot of things that weren't fine.

861
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 1: And you know, that's what the MTV generation, this generation

862
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: of kids who grew up on MTV, were reacting to

863
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. That's what Madonna was reacting to,

864
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 1: for sure. But yeah, the channel is almost instantly successful,

865
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 1: even though it's like barely available. They start getting more

866
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 1: and more carriers, and one of the ways they convince

867
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: carriers to use it is they do a survey. They

868
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: send people to record stores and say, are people asking

869
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: for records that they're only seeing on MTV versus things

870
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 1: that are being played on the radio, And record stores

871
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: say that that is the case. They are seeing kids

872
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: coming in increasingly and they are selling more and more

873
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: music only available on MTV. And that's how the executive

874
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: convinced more cable stations to take it. And another thing

875
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: that's kind of interesting about this is that cable television

876
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 1: wasn't that big at that time. It was kind of

877
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 1: still in its early stages, and there was no programming

878
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: specifically for teens. And you know, cable TV was more

879
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: common in the suburbs and rural areas because it was

880
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: easier to run cable there. So you need to actually

881
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: run cable to make cable available to more people.

882
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 4: And so initially a lot of what does run cable mean?

883
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 4: Like run a wire?

884
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: Well, no physical cable, like you know, cable is a.

885
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, run like running a wire, that's what, right,

886
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 5: Like running cable wasn't a cable.

887
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 4: This is kind of the same as a wire.

888
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean I'm not a technical expert, so

889
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: let's say yes.

890
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 5: Anyway, Okay, so you mean they need running a physical.

891
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 1: Cable, yes, so to actually like make it available to people.

892
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: And so, because a lot of the kids who saw

893
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: it were in these suburban and rural areas, first they

894
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: really loved it because they didn't have access to what

895
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: was going on in New York. Now, they didn't have

896
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 1: access to this world that suddenly they were seeing for themselves.

897
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 5: Right, It wasn't like everyone could access the same things

898
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 5: on the internet. This was like truly you were kind

899
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 5: of on the inside or in the know if you

900
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 5: had access to this.

901
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so within a few years, kids are demanding

902
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: that their parents buy cable so they can see MTV.

903
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: And in a lot of ways, CNN and MTV are

904
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: really credited with leading TV's transition from being just the

905
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: three main channels, you know, ABC, CBS, NBC to really

906
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 1: expanding the cable world and leading to this cable explosion.

907
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: But the cultural impact honestly goes beyond just cable, right.

908
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: MTV really changes the way people experience music. You know,

909
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: Mary talks about this in her book about how after

910
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: centuries of just listening to music, people now really want

911
00:44:58,120 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: to watch it.

912
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 3: Here she is again in Madonna's generation young filmmakers, this

913
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 3: whole generation took that idea and made it an art form.

914
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 3: And Madonna was the absolute perfect person for that because

915
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 3: she was so visually aware of how she appeared in

916
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 3: a camera, how she appeared moving in front of a camera.

917
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,359
Speaker 3: She was preternaturally prepared for the video era.

918
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: And in many ways, the rise of Madonna and the

919
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: rise of MTV happened together, right, they're sort of inextricably linked.

920
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 3: Yes, there's time almost simultaneous. That year that Madonna recorded

921
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 3: her first video, which was also nineteen eighty two, for

922
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 3: her song burning up. Changes had begun to occur because

923
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 3: the people making the videos weren't corporate. They were artists,

924
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 3: and you know, the culture was about to change radically,

925
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 3: and Madonna was at the forefront.

926
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 5: That feels like a really good place to end Part one, Susie,

927
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 5: what do we have in store next week?

928
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: So next week we're going to take you beyond the

929
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: like a virgin performance and tell you what happens next.

930
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 1: We'll chart how those three minutes on the VMA stage,

931
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: which we're supposed to tank her career, actually end up

932
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: turning Madonna into the huge superstar we know that she

933
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: is now. So please join us for that. This is

934
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: in retrospect. Thanks for listening. Is there a pop culture

935
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 1: moment you can't stop thinking about and want us to

936
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: explore in a future episode. Email us at inretropod at

937
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: gmail dot com or find us on Instagram at in retropod.

938
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 5: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us

939
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 5: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you

940
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 5: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram,

941
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 5: which we may or may not delete.

942
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett

943
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 1: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books

944
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: Feminist Fight Club and This Is Eighteen.

945
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 5: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media.

946
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 4: Larn Hansen is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our

947
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 4: engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. Sharon

948
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 4: Atia is our researcher and associate producer.

949
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our

950
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel.

951
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Our mixing engineer is Amanda

952
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 1: Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do. We are

953
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 1: your hosts Susie Bannacharum and Jessica Bennett. We are also

954
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: executive producers. For even more check out in retropod dot com.

955
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 1: See you next week.