1 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy. 2 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, welcome to Mother Knows Death. On this week's 3 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 2: External Exam, we will be talking with Matt Mangino, who 4 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 2: is a former district attorney and author of The Executioners 5 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:33,639 Speaker 2: Toll twenty ten. He's currently an adjunct professor at the 6 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: Theold College and writes a weekly syndicated column on crime 7 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 2: and punishment that is published in major newspapers including The 8 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: Washington Post and The Philadelphia Inquirer. Matt has also been 9 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 2: featured on major news outlets including CNN, MSNBC, Fox as 10 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 2: a legal commentator, and as a regular contributor to Crime 11 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 2: Stories with Nancy Grace and Court TV. 12 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 3: Hi. 13 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: Matt, Welcome the Mother Knows Death. Thanks for being here today. 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 3: It's great, Thanks for having me. 15 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 2: I first met Matt at Crime Con. Actually, you were 16 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 2: the first person that I met on the elevator as 17 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 2: soon as I was going down for the first time, 18 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 2: and I never I didn't really know who you were. 19 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 2: So I met you and you were really friendly, so 20 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:17,639 Speaker 2: that was super cool. And then when I started looking 21 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 2: into what you were doing and everything, I was like, Oh, 22 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 2: this guy's awesome. I'm going to have him on the show. 23 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's a pleasure to be here. 24 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 2: So at Crime Con you did a lecture called through 25 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 2: the Lens of an o Tear, how five classic Hollywood 26 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 2: films influenced the justice system. Can you tell us a 27 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 2: little bit about that lecture. 28 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, it was something that I've been interested in. 29 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 3: I'm kind of a movie buff, and as you know, 30 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 3: the Crime Con is just you have so many people 31 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 3: there who are interested in true crime and other issues. 32 00:01:58,000 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 3: And then on the other side of the coin, you 33 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 3: have you know, the classic movie fans, you know, the 34 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 3: people who follow Turner classic movies and and and they're 35 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 3: just as energized as the true crime people. So I thought, 36 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 3: you know, it'd be interesting to kind of join those 37 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 3: two together. And really, there was five movies that I 38 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 3: looked at that I thought, you know, had an impact 39 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 3: on how we view and understand the criminal justice system. 40 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 3: And really those five movies were you know, from a 41 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 3: very short period of time, nineteen fifty seven to nineteen 42 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 3: sixty two. And what was fascinating about these movies is 43 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 3: that they had great actors, you know, outstanding directors. All 44 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 3: the movies won you know, Academy Awards depending on you 45 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 3: know what aspect of the movie. Uh you know, so, 46 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 3: you know, and people who are familiar with with sort 47 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 3: of true crime and familiar with movies will recognize these movies, 48 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 3: you know, Anatomy of a Murder and uh yeah, the 49 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 3: Judgment at Nourremberg and uh twelve Angry Men and Witness 50 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 3: for the Prosecution and of course To Kill a Mockingbird. 51 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 3: And so you know what what I sort of did 52 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 3: was examine, you know, through crypt clips and through the 53 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 3: legal process, you know what was you know, realistic about 54 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 3: these movies and you know what just wouldn't happen in 55 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 3: a in a real courtroom. I thoroughly enjoyed preparing for it, 56 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 3: and I really enjoyed presenting it. 57 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: It's a really interesting perspective actually, because back then when 58 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 2: those films were moved were made, there was no real 59 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: true crime shows, right, so it was all every exposure 60 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 2: that all of the regular people had to that was 61 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 2: just through the eyes of filmmakers. So that's interesting as 62 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 2: opposed to now that there's just so much of this 63 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 2: real true crime stuff out. 64 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 3: There, right, So if you wanted to see what it 65 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 3: was like in a courtroom, the only place that you 66 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 3: had an opportunity to do that was down at your 67 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 3: county courthouse if you wanted to go down and actually 68 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 3: watch a live trial, which you know, in you know, 69 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 3: the late nineteenth century in the early twentieth century was 70 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 3: sort of like entertainment. You know, it was tough to 71 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 3: get into a courtroom to watch a trial because people 72 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 3: would go down there to watch it because that was 73 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 3: kind of like entertainment in the community. 74 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: You know. 75 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 3: The thing that I thought was interesting is is that 76 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 3: these movies really shaped what people thought courtrooms were like. 77 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 3: And as you said, you know, that was the only 78 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 3: place they could go. Now. You know, of course television 79 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 3: came around and and you had you know, shows like 80 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 3: Perry Mason and and things like that, which you know, 81 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 3: you know, shaped our perspective of the criminal justice systems. 82 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 3: But really those were the only places that that you 83 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 3: could you could see a trial. 84 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I so, so wait, I have a question, are 85 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: you can you still go Can regular people just go 86 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:35,799 Speaker 2: watch trials? 87 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 3: Now? Oh? Yes, I mean, you know, that's kind of 88 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 3: one of the hallmarks of of the criminal justice system 89 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 3: or or the uh justice system period is that it's 90 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 3: open to the public. You know, we don't do things 91 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 3: in the criminal justice system where people can't see what's 92 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 3: going on. So so you know, really every hearing, every 93 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 3: trial is open to the public and anybody can come 94 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 3: in there and watch it. Now, there are some sometimes 95 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 3: there are sensitive issues that over time, you know, we've 96 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 3: thought were not appropriate, like children testifying and things like that. 97 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 3: Sometimes the courtroom could be closed, but that's that's not 98 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 3: the rule. I mean, you know, all proceedings are open 99 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 3: and people have an opportunity to come in and watch. 100 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: That's that's actually awesome to hear because I always see 101 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 2: people that are reporters and stuff that were they say, oh, 102 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 2: we were sitting and watching the trial, and I thought 103 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 2: you had some special press pass or something to get 104 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 2: in there. I didn't know you could just go do that, 105 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 2: but I might do some of those. It sounds it 106 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: sounds cool. I went when I was doing my internship 107 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 2: with the Medical Examiner's Office, I went to court a 108 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 2: couple of times with the emmy when they had to testify, 109 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 2: and I just thought it was so cool just to 110 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 2: it was like watching real life Flaw and Order or something. 111 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 2: It was really neat. 112 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, So did you it is? 113 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 2: Did you was this the first time you went to 114 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: crime con or you've been there before. 115 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 3: No, Actually, i'd been there before. I was there in 116 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 3: What Fun twenty twenty two and actually presented on my book, 117 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 3: The Executioners Toll. So this was my I'm a vetter, 118 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 3: I'm a crime con vetter. 119 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: All right, that let's we have to talk about your book, 120 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 2: because I love the whole idea of it. It's just 121 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 2: really cool. So the book is called, like you just said, 122 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 2: The Executioners Toll twenty ten, and it gives a detailed 123 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 2: examination of every execution that was carried out in a 124 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 2: single year in America. So it chronicles sixty three murders, 125 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 2: forty four trials, countless appeals, two suicide attempts, forty one 126 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 2: last meals, thirty three final statements, and forty six executions. So, 127 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 2: rather than talking about death penalty cases that have happened 128 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 2: in America throughout history, you chose to cover executions that 129 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 2: happened in one specific year of twenty ten. Why did 130 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: you choose to write this book in the first place, 131 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,119 Speaker 2: and why did you choose to do it in this way? 132 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 3: Well, you know, first off, I've been interested in the 133 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 3: death penalty. You know, I was a prosecutor for eight years, 134 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 3: I tried death penalty cases. As a defense attorney, I've 135 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 3: tried first degree murder cases, so I've seen the system 136 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 3: from both sides, and you know, the death penalty has 137 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 3: always fascinated me because, you know, I think with the 138 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 3: death penalty, a lot of what we know and understand 139 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 3: about the law has kind of grown out of that. 140 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 3: And you know, we can elaborate that on that in 141 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 3: the moment. But the reason I chose to right the 142 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 3: book the way that I did is that that most 143 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 3: of the time, when you're when you're dealing with the 144 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 3: death penalty, or someone's writing about it, or it's a 145 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 3: book about the death penalty, people write from a certain bias. 146 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 3: So they either support the death penalty or they're opposed 147 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 3: to the death penalty. So what they do is they 148 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 3: cherry pick the best cases over time that support their position. 149 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 3: And so what I thought I would do is instead of, 150 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 3: you know, cherry pick these cases, what I would do 151 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 3: is is pick one year and look at every execution 152 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 3: in that single year. Look at the crimes, look at 153 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 3: the investigations, look at the trials, the appeals, you know, everything. 154 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 3: As you said, down to the to the last mill 155 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 3: and so in this forty six cases, you're going to 156 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 3: get cases that say, hey, you know, this case cries 157 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 3: out for the death penalty. And then you're going to 158 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 3: get cases where you say, why, Wow, why did this 159 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 3: guy get executed and not one of the other twenty 160 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 3: five hundred people on death row. So what I thought 161 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 3: it would would do is get people to think and say, hey, 162 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 3: you know, read this book, look at these cases, and 163 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 3: you decide whether you think the death penalties in appropriate, 164 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 3: you know, punishment in America's criminal justices. 165 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 2: I love that because, like you were saying, you don't 166 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 2: want to read something, because I really go back and 167 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 2: forth with it. I used to be one hundred percent 168 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 2: and on my website, The Grosser Room, we'll read about 169 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,839 Speaker 2: cases of people that do these horrible crimes and you 170 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 2: could see the photos from the crime scenes, so it 171 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: really gives you a representation of how horrible it was. 172 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 2: And then you hear that these people are on death 173 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: row or get to death penalty, and we have comments 174 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 2: in the section of people saying why they're against it 175 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: because I've always been like, so death penalty, and then 176 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 2: I'm kind of think, hmm, all right, I could see 177 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 2: your point there, and then it's better to always get 178 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: both sides of everything so you could really make your 179 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 2: own decision. So since I don't really know if this 180 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 2: is something that you want to like state for the record, 181 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: but it is a very controversial thing to say that 182 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 2: your pro death penalty or not. But I think with 183 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 2: your experience of being both a prosecutor and defense attorney, 184 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 2: you've seen both sides of it. What are you pro 185 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 2: death penalty or are you? Do you think it should 186 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 2: we shouldn't use it? 187 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 3: Well, you know, my opinion is, you know, right now, 188 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 3: the death penalty is broken. I don't think that it 189 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 3: works for any appropriate means of punishment. So when we 190 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 3: talk about punishment in this country, you look at it 191 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 3: from a couple of different perspectives. So we look at it. 192 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 3: You know, obviously there's a punitive aspect to punishment in 193 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 3: this country. There's a deterrence factor to punishment in this country. 194 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 3: There's a retribution factor, and there's a rehabilitation factor. And 195 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 3: I don't think that it definitely provides any of those 196 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 3: to the criminal justice system right now. So just to 197 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 3: give you an example, you know, in the last few years, 198 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 3: there've been on average. Of course COVID had an impact, 199 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 3: but there's been on average of maybe about twenty to 200 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 3: twenty five executions a year. Okay, And actually on my 201 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 3: blog Mattmangino dot com, I write about every execution and 202 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 3: have for the last ten years, so you can really 203 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 3: go through there and look at everyone of them. But 204 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 3: you know, there are two thighs or more people on 205 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 3: death row, you know, So how is it that you know, 206 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 3: we select twenty people, twenty five people a year out 207 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 3: of two thousand to be executed, you know. So you know, 208 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy two, the United States Supreme Court said 209 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 3: that the death penalty was arbitrary in the way that 210 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 3: it was imposed. Okay, there was no sort of guidelines 211 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 3: about who would get the death who would be tried 212 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 3: under a death penalty case, who would be executed. There was, 213 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 3: it was it was arbitrary. So the United States Supreme 214 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 3: Court struck down the death didn't say that the death 215 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 3: penalty was unconstitutional, but just said that it was arbitrary 216 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 3: in the way that it was being imposed. So, you know, 217 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 3: states went back and they corrected that, so to speak. 218 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 3: And now the death penalty, you know, in nineteen seventy 219 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 3: six was supposed to be for the worst of the worst, 220 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 3: and there were some guidelines, But now I think it's 221 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 3: it's arbitrary in the way that it's imposed or the 222 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 3: way that it's carried out. Excuse me, you know again, 223 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 3: how do you get to this point where you have 224 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 3: all these people on death row? It's predominantly a you know, 225 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 3: south of the Mason Dixon line punishment. There aren't many 226 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 3: states in the north who were who even have a 227 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 3: death penalty anymore, or who carrying out the death penllons. 228 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 3: Look at my state state of Pennsylvania. You know, we've 229 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 3: had the death penalty since nineteen seventy six, the modern 230 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 3: era of the death penellty, and we've executed three people, 231 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 3: and all three of those people volunteered to be executed. 232 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 3: They gave up their pill rights and just wanted to 233 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 3: be executed. The last time we involuntarily executed somebody in 234 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 3: Pennsylvania was nineteen sixty two. Yet we still have it 235 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 3: on the books, and we still we will impose it, 236 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 3: but we don't carry it out. So my answer in 237 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 3: that sort of long convoluted statement is that I don't 238 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 3: think the death penalty works. There are certainly some people 239 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 3: that I think the only option is the death penalty, 240 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 3: and there was a case like that in twenty ten 241 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 3: that I wrote about. But you know, the means by 242 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 3: which we carry it out is arbitrary and capricious and 243 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 3: therefore doesn't work. 244 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 2: Do you think, because obviously right now, I think it's 245 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 2: not a deterrent at all, because if you just know, 246 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 2: like you're just saying that, if you how many people 247 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 2: get murdered in the United States a year, and then 248 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 2: how many are actually executed, it's it's like, you'll take 249 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 2: the risk, right because the chances of that happening to 250 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 2: you are zero point one percent probably, But do you 251 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 2: think if it was actually carried out in such a 252 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 2: way that you had a timely trial and you were 253 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: put to death shortly afterwards that and most people were 254 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 2: that it would be more of a deterrent. 255 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I think that you're exactly right. There has 256 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 3: to be you know, people have to see the consequences 257 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 3: of their conduct for it to be a deterrent, and 258 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 3: so you know, the only way that you could do 259 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 3: that would be if you had a trial and then 260 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 3: you had a timely review process and ultimately an execution. 261 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 3: You know, right now, the average stay on death row 262 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 3: is more than twenty years, okay, and most of those 263 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 3: people who go off of death row don't go off 264 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 3: by means of execution. They die of natural causes and 265 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 3: other things. I mean, you know, when you think about 266 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 3: the number of people on death row and the number 267 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 3: of executions per year, you you know, see that, you 268 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 3: know that this process as it exists right now is 269 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 3: is arbitrary. Yeah. The other thing that I that's a 270 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 3: sure sign that the death penalty is is waning in 271 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 3: this country, and that is the number of death penalty 272 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 3: verdicts that there are there there are that the number 273 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 3: has dramatically fallen over the last ten years in terms 274 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 3: of the number of people that are being sentenced to death, uh, 275 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 3: you know, by a jury. So so there's no question 276 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 3: that the death penalty is is sort of you know, spiraling, 277 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 3: you know, downward. But there still are states, predominantly Southern states, 278 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 3: who are using the death penalty, but certainly not as 279 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 3: prolific as they have in the past. 280 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: Why do you think that is? Is that because that 281 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 2: the prosecutors aren't putting death penalty on the table or 282 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 2: the jury isn't isn't convicting people of for the death penalty? 283 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 3: Well, I think that that, uh, fewer prosecutors are seeking 284 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 3: the death penalty in cases and few fewer juries are 285 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 3: imposing the death penalty, and so I think it's a 286 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 3: matter of both. And there are so many things that 287 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 3: that are considered in that process. And you know, number one, 288 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 3: for a lot of communities across the country, it's the cost. 289 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 3: You know, if you if you're in a in a 290 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 3: small county, uh, you know, a rural county, and you're 291 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 3: going to seek the death penalty. Uh, you know, think 292 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 3: about the costs that they are going to be involved. 293 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 3: You know, you're so you're going to have you know, 294 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 3: prosecutors are going to have to dedicate their time to 295 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 3: this case. More than likely the defense is going to 296 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 3: be paid for by the state or the state and 297 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 3: the county. They're going to be expert witnesses, they're going 298 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 3: to be mitigation experts. And then ultimately, if there is 299 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 3: a death penalty conviction or or even a first degree 300 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 3: murder life in prison conviction, you're going to have appeals, 301 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 3: and those appeals are going to continue, uh, you know 302 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 3: for years. It doesn't matter you know, people say, well, 303 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 3: you know, if we got rid of the death penalty, 304 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 3: we wouldn't have as many appeals. Well, I don't really 305 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 3: agree with that. You know, somebody who's been convicted of 306 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 3: first degree murder and sentenced the life in prison. Guess 307 00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 3: what they're not going to say, Oh oh boy, I'm 308 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 3: happy I and get the death penalty. So I'm just 309 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 3: gonna sit here and twiddle my thumbs in prison, you know, 310 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 3: for the next fifty years. No, they're gonna They're gonna 311 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 3: appeal their their first degree murder convictions. So so, you know, 312 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 3: whenever a case, you know, a sort of catastrophic case, 313 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 3: whether it's you know, multiple homicides or homicide in a 314 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 3: small community, it costs taxpayers in county government huge sums 315 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 3: of money. It has an impact literally on on the 316 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 3: services in a particular community. 317 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 2: Does so everyone wants they're convicted of something like this, 318 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 2: they have the right to appeal. But is there a 319 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 2: limit on how many times they can do that? 320 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 3: Well, uh, you know, in a way, there is. So 321 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 3: you know, let's look at Pennsylvania for instance. Okay, where 322 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 3: I practice. If you are convicted of first degree murder 323 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 3: and sentenced to death, you have an automatic appeal right 324 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 3: to the Supreme Court of Pennsylvank. Okay. You know, normally 325 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 3: we have intermediary courts, the Superior Court and the Colinwealth 326 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 3: Court where you would first appeal. But because it's a 327 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,959 Speaker 3: it's it's a first degree uh murder death penalty, you 328 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 3: have an automatic right to go straight to the Supreme Court. 329 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 3: So you know, the Supreme Court will review that the 330 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 3: Supreme Court of Pennsylvank. You have the right to appeal that, 331 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 3: you know, even to the Supreme Court of the United States. 332 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 3: But after your direct appeal rights are exhausted. Well, so 333 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 3: let's say this Supreme Court affirms your your conviction or 334 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 3: confirms the conviction and you know, the United States Supreme 335 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 3: Court says we're not going to hear this case. You 336 00:21:55,359 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 3: then have you know, collater roll opportunities to appeal. Okay. 337 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 3: So in Pennsylvania we have post conviction rights, which means 338 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 3: that after your appeals over, you can now appeal other 339 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 3: issues through this post conviction process, Like you could allege 340 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 3: that your attorney failed you, that he or she was ineffective, 341 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 3: and that's a whole new issue that goes through the process. 342 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 3: So so you know, the trial court will will entertain 343 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 3: your post conviction. Then you know, you have an opportunity 344 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 3: to appeal that to the superior court, to the Pennsylvania 345 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 3: Supreme Court. Then after those issues have all been exhausted, 346 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 3: you have a right to file what are called habeas 347 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 3: corpus petitions in the federal court saying that you're being 348 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 3: held unlawfully because of this this this. So yes, appeal 349 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 3: rates can go on and on and on, and then 350 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 3: you know you can seek you know, the Supreme Court 351 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,919 Speaker 3: in the United States, Uh, you know, seek their ability 352 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 3: to postponent execution or you know other things you can 353 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 3: look at it pardons asking the governor to to resand 354 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 3: your death penalty, uh sentence. So yeah, yeah, I mean 355 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 3: they do go on and on, and there's there's last 356 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 3: minute appeals, you know, right up until the point that 357 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 3: people were executed. So yeah, there's a great deal of 358 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 3: expense and uh, you know man and woman power that 359 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 3: goes into working on these cases. 360 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 2: And what what are the parameters forgetting the death penalty verdicts? 361 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 2: As you were saying earlier about how in your state 362 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 2: there's these specific rules and I live in New Jersey, 363 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 2: which I don't even know if we have the death penalty. 364 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 3: Honestly, I don't think you do. I don't think New 365 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 3: Jersey has the death penalty. In New York doesn't have 366 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 3: the death penalty. 367 00:23:55,280 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 2: What what state? What state has the most I guess 368 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: severe laws as it comes to the death penalty and 369 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 2: actually carries them out. 370 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 3: Well, the most prolific UH state in terms of executions 371 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 3: is Texas. Texas consistently has had the most executions year 372 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 3: in and year out. Obviously, you know it's a large state, 373 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 3: but but they've been very prolific in terms of carrying 374 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 3: out executions and imposing death penalties. But even Texas has 375 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 3: experienced a dramatic decline in death penalty verdicts, but you know, 376 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 3: they are the leading state by far in terms of executions. 377 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 2: Is so, I guess my question is, there's so many 378 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 2: people that get murdered every single day we hear, we 379 00:24:54,720 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 2: hear about it. What what makes a person? What? What 380 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 2: are the rules as far as giving someone the death penalty? 381 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 2: Because usually it's like, oh, if you I don't know, 382 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: if you shoot someone in a robbery and a bodego, 383 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 2: I don't hear about those kinds of people. But it 384 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 2: seems like it's more horrific crimes maybe, or has there 385 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 2: ever been a case where someone is it specific to 386 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 2: murder or can it be for other things like child 387 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 2: rape or molestation or something like that. 388 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 3: Well, you know, there was I'll answer your last question 389 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 3: first because it's a great question. So there was a 390 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 3: time where you know, rape was a capital offense, so 391 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 3: you could be sentenced to death for rape. As you 392 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 3: can imagine, that was particularly important again in southern states 393 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 3: where there were allegations, you know, the black man raped 394 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 3: a white woman. So there were a lot and if 395 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 3: you think back, you know, we talked earlier about movies 396 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 3: To Kill a mocking Bird. That's what To Kill a 397 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 3: mocking Bird is about. That. That's what the book, Harper 398 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 3: Lee's Pulitzer Prize winning book, and ultimately the movie was 399 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 3: about a black man who was accused of raping a 400 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 3: white woman. And so, yes, so there were times in 401 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 3: which there were more more than just murder could be 402 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 3: punished by the death line. That changed, and you know, 403 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 3: then there there was issues recently, i say, within the 404 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 3: last ten years in which Louisiana, for instance, uh added 405 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 3: to the death belly the rape of a child. If 406 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 3: you were convicted of the rape of a child, you 407 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 3: could receive the death on Finally, the Supreme Court of 408 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 3: the United States said that the death pelly can own 409 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 3: be imposed for the fort There has to be a 410 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 3: loss of life for the death penalty to be imposed. 411 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 3: But you know, it's interesting that that hasn't stopped states 412 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 3: from continuing to enact laws that say, like, for instance, 413 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 3: the rape of a child. Florida has a lot it 414 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 3: says the rape of a child could result in the death. 415 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 3: Don't that's not going to. 416 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 2: Mean I don't. I don't have See when you say 417 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 2: loss of a life, I think like, if you rape 418 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 2: a child, you're kind of taking away their life in 419 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: a way. You know, they're physically not dead, but you 420 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: kind of ruin their life in a certain way. So 421 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 2: it could be argued that that is a loss of 422 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 2: a life. 423 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 3: I would say, no, I understand, but but you know 424 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 3: that right now, the way it exists, the Supreme Court 425 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 3: has said that there has to be death, okay, but 426 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 3: you know other states are continuing to challenge that. So 427 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 3: so Florida enacts the child rape law again. You know, 428 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 3: maybe it goes back to the Supreme Court and we 429 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 3: have uh, we have we have seen where this Supreme 430 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 3: Court doesn't have a problem with overruling precedents. So, uh, 431 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 3: you know that that could be the law in the 432 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 3: future again. But but uh, the bottom line is as 433 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 3: it exists right now. If you commit first degree murder, 434 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 3: which means you know, planned premeditated murder, okay, you can 435 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 3: be subject to the death penalty if there are certain 436 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 3: additional aggravating factors. And when I spoke earlier about the 437 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 3: Supreme Court overturning the death penalty and then it then 438 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 3: it coming back, that's how it came back. It came 439 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 3: back with these new laws that said that not only 440 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 3: do you have to commit first degree murder, there has 441 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 3: to be aggravating circumstances as well. And those aggravating circumstances 442 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 3: could be the death of a child, it could be 443 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 3: murdering a police officer, murdering a pregnant woman, murdering a 444 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 3: witness who's going to testify against you. And then you know, 445 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 3: states have sort of added on to that. You know, 446 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 3: if it was a horrific murder, I mean, I don't 447 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 3: know how you differentiate differentiate between what's horrific and what 448 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 3: is And if somebody's murdered, but those circumstances have to 449 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 3: be found. The defendant can also present during the penalty 450 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 3: phase of a trial after you've been convicted, when they 451 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 3: determine life or death, a defender can present mitigating factors 452 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 3: you know why they shouldn't be punished with the most 453 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 3: heart punishment that exists. But that's how, you know, the 454 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 3: death penalties evolved to kind of make it more specific 455 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 3: to you know, the worst of the worst. Does it 456 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 3: really work that way? I don't think that it does, 457 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 3: because I think states have an act that sort of 458 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 3: catch all aggravating factors that really just about any first 459 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 3: degree murder case could still end up a death penalty 460 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 3: case in some states. But that's how the process works. 461 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 2: This episode is brought to you by the Grosser Room. Guys, 462 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 2: you have to join the Groce Room. It's so much fun. 463 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 2: We are having another sale for just a short amount 464 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 2: of time. You'll love it. Because all of the stories, 465 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 2: or most of the stories that we talk about here 466 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 2: on Mother Knows Death, especially with the six shocking stories, 467 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 2: there's all photographs to accommodate these crazy stories. So I 468 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 2: think the stories themselves are crazy. But then when you 469 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 2: put the photos with it as well. It's just it 470 00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 2: really gives you a full picture of what is going 471 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 2: on in the world of pathology. Yeah. So now through 472 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 2: August twenty six you can visit the grossroom dot com 473 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 2: to sign up for twenty dollars for one year of gross. 474 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 475 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 2: So twenty dollars is a good deal because it ends 476 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 2: up being a little bit more than five cents a day, 477 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: and we do posts every single day. We have multiple 478 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 2: articles and videos and photos a week, so check it out. 479 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 2: So in the past couple of years, we've had some 480 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 2: really high profile cases where the person was given the 481 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 2: death penalty and it was overturned. So first, obviously a 482 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 2: big one on this show is Scott Peterson, who was 483 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 2: accused of killing his wife an unborn child. He was 484 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 2: given the death penalty originally and then that got overturned 485 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty. And then just in the past couple 486 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 2: of weeks on the News, the nine to eleven Mastermind 487 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 2: Khaleed Shaik Muhammad, he was had the death penalty, which 488 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 2: I think that most Americans were completely okay with, and 489 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 2: then we heard that he did some kind of a 490 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 2: plea deal and his death penalty got overturned. Which was 491 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 2: was shocking, but then we saw that the defense secretary 492 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 2: revoked that plea deal, I guess can you can you 493 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 2: explain what happened in these cases and how often the 494 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 2: death penalty gets revoked, Well, the. 495 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 3: Death penalty gets overturned, you know, frequently. So some people 496 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 3: will will say that, you know, people who are convicted 497 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 3: in sentenced to death have sort of a super due process. 498 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 3: So due process means you get the right to be 499 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 3: heard and the right to have your case reviewed and 500 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 3: present whatever you think is important in your own defense. 501 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 3: Some suggest that people said as the death have a 502 00:32:55,280 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 3: super due process. The court really examines these cases, maybe 503 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 3: even more closely than other pills because so much is 504 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 3: at stake. You know, we know that people who have 505 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 3: been on death row, not a lot of them, but 506 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 3: people who have been on death row have been exonerated, 507 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 3: you know, which means there not only was their conviction overturned, 508 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 3: they've been found to be innocent, but they spend time 509 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 3: on death row. So the courts are particularly concerned about 510 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 3: incautious about someone who's sentenced the death because you know, 511 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 3: once you're executed, there's no one doing that, you know, 512 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 3: so you could sit in jail for twenty five years, 513 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 3: and that's a terrible thing, and then ultimately be exonerated. 514 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 3: You lost those twenty five years, but you're still a 515 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 3: lot if you've been executed and all of a sudden 516 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 3: someone says, oh, wait, we made a mistake here, and 517 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 3: there really isn't anything. It says that we have executed 518 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 3: an innocent person in this country. In the modern era 519 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 3: of the death line, now there there are cases in 520 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 3: which people make powerful arguments that an innocent person could executed, 521 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,479 Speaker 3: but there's no case that anybody can point to where 522 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 3: there is, you know, DNA evidence that exonerates someone who 523 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 3: was executed in this country. But you know, to go 524 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 3: back to your questions. You know Scott Peterson, for instance, 525 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 3: you know he was sentenced to death and then ultimately 526 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 3: his death penalty sentence, not his conviction, but his death 527 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:52,399 Speaker 3: penalty sentence was overturned because the courts found that there 528 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 3: was some problem in the way that the jurors were 529 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 3: bordered in terms of the death bound. So in order 530 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 3: to be on a death penalty jury, you have to 531 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 3: be death qualified, which means you have to be willing 532 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 3: to say I could impose the death penalty if the 533 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 3: evidence and the laws supports that. Okay, if you can't 534 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 3: say that when you're being interviewed to be on the jury, 535 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 3: then you can't be on the jury because if you 536 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 3: say I could never impose the death penalty, then we 537 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 3: automatically know if you get on this jury, he's not 538 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 3: going to get the death bound. So jurors have to 539 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,479 Speaker 3: be death qualified. And what the court said was that 540 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 3: in Peterson's case, people were left off the jury who 541 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,399 Speaker 3: during their interview process or when they filled out their 542 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 3: interview questionnaires, they did essentially say I'm opposed to the 543 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,359 Speaker 3: death penalty, but I could impose it if the law 544 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 3: required me to do so. Because those people were arbitrarily 545 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 3: eliminated from the pool, the court said that his death 546 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 3: penalty had to be overturned. So he's still serving, you know, 547 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 3: life in prison on first degree murder. But you know, 548 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 3: the Innociance Project is now involved in this case because 549 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 3: they're suggesting, which is you know something, because they normally 550 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,800 Speaker 3: only get involved in the cases in which they firmly 551 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 3: believe that someone has been falsely accused, and they're involved 552 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 3: in his case and looking at it as well. With 553 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 3: regard to the nine to eleven terrorist Muhammed. That's a 554 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 3: little bit different because they they are they this plea 555 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 3: was not made in a you know, state or federal 556 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 3: criminal court cases. I understand that this is a military 557 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 3: tribune and this plea agreement was reached for life in prison. 558 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 3: But ultimately the Secretary of Defense had the opportunity to 559 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 3: give it a thumbs up or thumbs down, and in 560 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:16,760 Speaker 3: this case, they rescinded the plea. 561 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 2: Uh. 562 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 3: That's that's just a whole different process than than you know, 563 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 3: the process in the Peterson case. 564 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 2: See that the Scott Peterson cases is kind of interesting 565 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 2: to me because I and and a lot of my 566 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 2: listeners here might get mad at me for saying this, 567 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 2: but they don't. I don't really. I don't think he's innocent, 568 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 2: just by the way he was acting and everything. But 569 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 2: I also think that to give someone like that the 570 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 2: death penalty without having actual concrete evidence, as like you 571 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 2: were just talking about DNA and just or you know, 572 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 2: video or some kind of thing that that direct links 573 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 2: this murder to him, it does make me. It would 574 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 2: make me a little nervous to say that, because I 575 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 2: feel like most of his conviction was based on circumstantial 576 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 2: evidence and not actually anything that proved that he actually 577 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 2: killed her, you know what I mean. And I see 578 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 2: why they're they're trying to see if someone else did it, 579 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 2: you know what I mean, because they don't have that evidence. 580 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 2: So I get that. 581 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know the thing about you know, Peterson, 582 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 3: in most cases in this country, uh, you know, we 583 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 3: we've grown accustomed, you know, whether we you know, it's 584 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 3: trials that we're watching, you know, on court TV or 585 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 3: law on crime, or or you know, maybe it's you know, 586 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,359 Speaker 3: something that we're watching on television. You know, you get 587 00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:00,360 Speaker 3: this idea that you know, every case has DNA or 588 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 3: every case has uh you know, some you know sort 589 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:09,240 Speaker 3: of physical evidence a fingerprint or or you know, uh, 590 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 3: tool markings or whatever the whatever it might be. But 591 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 3: actually most cases don't. Most cases don't have any type 592 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 3: of forensic evidence. You know, what you might have as 593 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 3: a as a as an eyewitness, or or what you 594 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 3: might have as circumstantial evidence, and you can prove a 595 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:31,280 Speaker 3: case beyond a reasonable doubt with circumstantial evidence. It makes 596 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 3: people feel uncomfortable. But but you know, this whole idea 597 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,280 Speaker 3: of the C s I effect, uh, and what that means, 598 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:45,919 Speaker 3: is that people who watch television dramas and things like that, 599 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 3: they have an unrealistic, unrealistic expectation of what the state 600 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 3: has in terms of evidence. Everybody expects DNA, everybody expects fingerprints, 601 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 3: everybody accepts expects, you know, hair samples or fiber samples, 602 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 3: and they just don't exist in most cases. And so 603 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 3: it's made prosecutors jobs much more difficult because often now 604 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 3: what happens is prosecutors not only have to prove and 605 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 3: present the evidence that they do have, they have to 606 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,719 Speaker 3: provide an explanation for why they don't have other evidence. 607 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 3: And that's a new phenomenon that's developed because of this 608 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:37,280 Speaker 3: whole idea and whole sort of focus on true crime 609 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,440 Speaker 3: and crime dramas on television. 610 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because when I was at the Medical 611 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,720 Speaker 2: Examiner's office, you know, as a student and not really 612 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 2: knowing anything and seeing labs and everything for the first time, 613 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 2: you know, there was one person that they thought might 614 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,799 Speaker 2: have gotten like smothered by a pillow or something, and 615 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,800 Speaker 2: I'm like, are you guys going to collect fiber evidence? 616 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 2: And they're like, we don't have the resources for that 617 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 2: kind of stuff, you know. Yeah, and then you kind 618 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,879 Speaker 2: of got like a real picture of everything on those 619 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,879 Speaker 2: TV shows. Is just like most offices don't have these 620 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 2: high end morgues with all of these different equipment things 621 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,719 Speaker 2: and the ability. I saw this this one that they 622 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:21,759 Speaker 2: I don't know if it was CSI or one of 623 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,879 Speaker 2: those types of shows, but they were pouring like silicone 624 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 2: into knife molds and everything to see what weapon was used. 625 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 2: And I was like that, Yeah, that's that's kind of 626 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 2: a stretch there. Maybe they do it in some places, 627 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 2: but certainly not any of the places that I did 628 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 2: my rotations. In the book. You said that there are 629 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 2: there were two inmates that attempted to kill themselves while 630 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 2: they were on death row. Is suicide a common thing 631 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,919 Speaker 2: that these types of inmates tried to do? 632 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, in my research at least uh in 633 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,359 Speaker 3: the cases that I examined, as you said, there there 634 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 3: were a couple of instances where where inmates attempt at 635 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,919 Speaker 3: suicide and and and really when you think about think 636 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 3: about that, it's not it's not funny, certainly, but but 637 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 3: it's so ironic. So here's here's a guy, an inmate 638 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 3: who attempts suicide. He's on death row, and so what 639 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 3: you do, is you doctor him back to health so 640 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 3: that you can execute it. 641 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 2: I mean, it's so weird. 642 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,799 Speaker 3: It's just weird, I mean, right, and so yeah, so 643 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 3: so you know, it's not uncommon, uh, you know for 644 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:55,760 Speaker 3: you know, people who are facing execution, you know, to 645 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 3: to try to take their own life and listen, you know, 646 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 3: people who have been sentenced to life in prison without 647 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 3: the possibility of parole, or even people unfortunately who have 648 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:12,319 Speaker 3: you know, mental health problems. You know, suicide is not 649 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,319 Speaker 3: uncommon in local jails and prisons across the country, regardless 650 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:22,400 Speaker 3: of your sets. And that's that's sad but true. Unfortunate. 651 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking, like why don't why don't you 652 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 2: just let them do it and like save a bunch 653 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,720 Speaker 2: of money in all of these appeals and just feeding 654 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 2: them every day if they want to die just I 655 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,800 Speaker 2: don't know, it is it's it is the weirdest thing ever. 656 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 2: It's like this control thing, like you know, I'm going 657 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,840 Speaker 2: to kill myself before I let them kill me. And 658 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,359 Speaker 2: then on the other side, it's like, no, we said 659 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,840 Speaker 2: we were killing you. You don't have control over. 660 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,919 Speaker 3: This, right and if you if you think, I mean, 661 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 3: the most famous instance of that was Herman Garing, who 662 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 3: was a Nazi war criminal who you know, they watched 663 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:07,240 Speaker 3: those war criminals around the clock so that they weren't 664 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 3: so they couldn't commit suicide before they were executed. But 665 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 3: he was able to get a cyanide capsule and commit 666 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 3: suicide before his execution. So it's when you think about 667 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 3: those things that it's just bizarre illogical. But that's the 668 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 3: way it is. 669 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I can understand, like in the Jeffrey 670 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,240 Speaker 2: Epstein case that they didn't want him to kill himself 671 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,840 Speaker 2: because they need they were trying to get more information 672 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,240 Speaker 2: off of him. But at this point, if these people 673 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,000 Speaker 2: are just kind of sitting around, then they're not trying 674 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 2: to get any information and they want to die. Like, 675 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:48,080 Speaker 2: I don't see a problem with it. So you followed 676 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 2: forty six different people who were executed in your book. 677 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,800 Speaker 2: What are some of the worst crimes those people committed. 678 00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,840 Speaker 2: Did you feel that their death penalty was justified? 679 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,759 Speaker 3: Well? Yeah, I mean so so one example that is 680 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 3: a guy named John let me see, I have my 681 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 3: book right here, and he was the last person executed, 682 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 3: John David Doody. He was from Oklahoma and what he 683 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 3: was he was in prison serving a life sentence because 684 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,279 Speaker 3: of some other crimes that he committed. He was an 685 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:35,360 Speaker 3: habitual offender, you know, heinous crimes, rape and other things. 686 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 3: So he ultimately was sentenced to life in prison, and 687 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 3: he didn't want to spend anymore. He didn't want to 688 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,959 Speaker 3: spend his life in prison, so as we're talking about, 689 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 3: instead of taking his own life, what he did was 690 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 3: he set up a scheme with his cellmate where he 691 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 3: would where he said, listen, if if if you let 692 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 3: me tie you up, and you know, say that I'm 693 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,600 Speaker 3: harming you, they'll split us up and you'll have your 694 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 3: own cell and I have my own cell. And what 695 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 3: he ultimately does is restrain this guy, ties him up 696 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 3: and then strangles him to death. Okay. Then he sits 697 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 3: down and writes a letter to this inmate's mother essentially 698 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,880 Speaker 3: saying I killed your son and it wasn't he wasn't 699 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 3: worth anything and he's better off dead. And then and 700 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,600 Speaker 3: then he's going to send that letter off to his 701 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:36,399 Speaker 3: mother while while he's laying there dead. Ultimately, John David dude, 702 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,360 Speaker 3: he said, if you don't give me the death penalty, 703 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 3: I'm going to continue to kill. Okay, I'm going to 704 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,640 Speaker 3: continue to kill. And whether it's another inmate or it's 705 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,680 Speaker 3: a guard, I'm going to kill until you give me 706 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 3: the death Wow. And so you know there's there's a guy. 707 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 3: What do you do with someone like that? 708 00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 2: You know, I know it's scary because the guards are 709 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,600 Speaker 2: probably scared of that too, right. 710 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 3: I mean, you know there's no way that he's not 711 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,160 Speaker 3: going to have any contact with another human being for 712 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,080 Speaker 3: the rest of his life since I mean so, so 713 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:16,399 Speaker 3: by letting this person continue to exist, you're putting other 714 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:21,280 Speaker 3: innocent people, whether they're inmates or whether they're their guards 715 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:25,279 Speaker 3: or other staff, you're putting them at risk. So you know, 716 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 3: the death penalty to me is really the only alternative, 717 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,120 Speaker 3: you know, So you know that that's what makes the 718 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 3: death penalty so difficult. So here's another example of of 719 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:43,880 Speaker 3: of why the death penalty is so difficult for people 720 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,920 Speaker 3: to really grasp the nuances of it. So, you know, 721 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:54,600 Speaker 3: typically if you know somebody who's been murdered, you know, 722 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,719 Speaker 3: you tend to favor their execution, especially if it's a 723 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:04,200 Speaker 3: whole horrible crime a child or or torture or something 724 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 3: like that. You know, your your ideas with regard to 725 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,520 Speaker 3: the death penalty, you know, become very supportive of of death. 726 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,160 Speaker 3: And so it's hard to do that because that's you know, 727 00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,440 Speaker 3: to understand that, because that's sort of localized, you know 728 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,919 Speaker 3: what I mean. So the best two examples we have 729 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 3: of that on a wider basis is number number one 730 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:35,160 Speaker 3: Saddam Hussein. So when he was sentenced to death, okay, 731 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,840 Speaker 3: there was support for the death penalty among the country 732 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:44,560 Speaker 3: at about sixty one percent. Okay, when the when the 733 00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,920 Speaker 3: when those people were pulled, when we were pulled about 734 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,719 Speaker 3: Saddam who says who says death penalty, that number went 735 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,560 Speaker 3: up to late eighty two percent, So eighty two percent 736 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,799 Speaker 3: of people supported the death penalty for Saddam Hussein, but 737 00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,720 Speaker 3: only sixty one percent of people supported the death penalty Gyran. 738 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 3: So that meant twenty percent of people who don't support 739 00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,000 Speaker 3: the death penalty supported it for him because they knew 740 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,400 Speaker 3: of his crimes. The same thing with the Oklahoma City bomber. 741 00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:18,600 Speaker 3: It's very similar. So so death penalty support was it 742 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:23,680 Speaker 3: like sixty three percent, Support for the death penalty for 743 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,760 Speaker 3: that specific defendant went up to like eighty three percent, 744 00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:32,359 Speaker 3: So it's inconsistent. I mean, people don't even understand themselves. Oh, 745 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,120 Speaker 3: I don't support the death penalty, but I do support 746 00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,799 Speaker 3: it for Saddam Hussein, or I do support it for 747 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:43,120 Speaker 3: the Oklahoma City bomber. You know, it creates, you know, 748 00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:49,239 Speaker 3: sort of a dilemma within individuals themselves whether or not 749 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:53,200 Speaker 3: they support the death penalty and why they support the 750 00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:57,719 Speaker 3: death But so that's an example of someone you know 751 00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,040 Speaker 3: who does the deathbelling. I don't. I don't see the alternative, 752 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:07,239 Speaker 3: but then you look at it. At another case in 753 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:12,160 Speaker 3: the book, Martin Grossman, and Martin Grossman had a conviction 754 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:20,880 Speaker 3: and he he was on probation. He wasn't allowed to 755 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,360 Speaker 3: carry a firearm with him or or to possess a firearm, 756 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,440 Speaker 3: and so he's out with his buddy, you know, in 757 00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,000 Speaker 3: the woods and they're shooting a gun target practice, and 758 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:35,960 Speaker 3: it just so happens that a Florida game warden, a woman, 759 00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:40,520 Speaker 3: pulls up and she asks them who they are, and 760 00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:45,799 Speaker 3: he realizes now that he's on probation and he's going 761 00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,400 Speaker 3: to have a probation violation because he's out shooting a gun, 762 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,319 Speaker 3: and he's going to go back to jail, and he 763 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,400 Speaker 3: doesn't want to go back to jail. So a struggle 764 00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:00,239 Speaker 3: ensues between him and the game ward and when she 765 00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:06,160 Speaker 3: when she wants to you know, arrest him, and ultimately 766 00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:10,760 Speaker 3: he gets her gun during this struggle and she shot 767 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:16,600 Speaker 3: and killed. You know that that's you know that it's 768 00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:20,800 Speaker 3: questionable whether or not that is even first degree murder, okay, 769 00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,760 Speaker 3: you know, because it wasn't something that was planned and premeditated, 770 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,719 Speaker 3: although you can premeditate something in seconds, but this is 771 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,120 Speaker 3: this is more like you know, a third degree murder, 772 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:38,880 Speaker 3: you know, death you know, not necessarily by action, but 773 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:44,359 Speaker 3: with malice, you know, not with the intent necessarily to kill. 774 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:47,640 Speaker 3: But ultimately he got convicted of first degree murder, sentenced 775 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,560 Speaker 3: to death, and he was executed, you know, so you 776 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:55,520 Speaker 3: know that's really you know, one extreme you know to another, 777 00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:01,160 Speaker 3: you know, in twenty ten with three are to the death. 778 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,920 Speaker 3: So that's what I think, you know, makes this book 779 00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:11,279 Speaker 3: make people think, you know, you know, critically think through 780 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,200 Speaker 3: the process and whether or not, you know, you support 781 00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,400 Speaker 3: the death penalty or whether or not you can you 782 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:23,080 Speaker 3: can take you know, an unwavering position with regard to 783 00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,120 Speaker 3: that the death penalty either way. 784 00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:31,640 Speaker 2: In twenty ten, what was the most common method used 785 00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,080 Speaker 2: for execution? I know, they're they vary state by state, 786 00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,160 Speaker 2: but what was the most common one in that particular year. 787 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:43,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, So what was interesting about twenty ten is the 788 00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:49,640 Speaker 3: predominant method of execution in this country is lethal injection. 789 00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:56,240 Speaker 3: So that is by and far used by most every state, 790 00:52:56,440 --> 00:53:01,839 Speaker 3: and it's the number one form of execution in most 791 00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:05,359 Speaker 3: every state that has death pune. But in twenty ten, 792 00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:11,319 Speaker 3: there was an execution by electric chair in Virginia. And 793 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,160 Speaker 3: the reason that it was able to be done was 794 00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:20,360 Speaker 3: because you could select in Virginia what type of execution 795 00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,919 Speaker 3: you wanted if it was legal in being used when 796 00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,439 Speaker 3: you were convicted. So this guy had been on death 797 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,319 Speaker 3: row for so long that when he was convicted, the 798 00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:33,120 Speaker 3: electric chair was still an option in Virginia, and because 799 00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,000 Speaker 3: it was still an option when he was convicted twenty 800 00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:40,279 Speaker 3: five years later, he could still ask for that and 801 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:45,239 Speaker 3: he was executed by electric chair. The other one was, 802 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:51,480 Speaker 3: which is extremely rare, was firing squad in Utah. You 803 00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,280 Speaker 3: can still and now there's other states since you could 804 00:53:55,320 --> 00:54:01,920 Speaker 3: still select firing squad as your method of execution. And 805 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,440 Speaker 3: it really has to do with the Mormon religion, and 806 00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:10,600 Speaker 3: you know, there's some atonement if you bleed out, you know, 807 00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:14,719 Speaker 3: and seeking forgiveness. And so there was someone who was 808 00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:20,040 Speaker 3: executed by firing squad in Utah. And the other interesting 809 00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:24,160 Speaker 3: thing is the first execution that occurred in this country 810 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,120 Speaker 3: after the death penalty was reinstated in nineteen seventy six 811 00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:35,000 Speaker 3: was Gary Gilmour who was executed by firing squad in Utah. 812 00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:40,160 Speaker 3: So other states now have adopted I think Oklahoma and 813 00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:46,279 Speaker 3: others are have adopted executions as a method of execution 814 00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:51,920 Speaker 3: if lethal injection drugs are not available. 815 00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:57,520 Speaker 2: See I've done examinations on all these forms of capital 816 00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:01,480 Speaker 2: punishment as far as this goes, and honest, just based 817 00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:05,160 Speaker 2: on what I know from anatomy and physiology, I would 818 00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:09,600 Speaker 2: pick firing squad over any of these because the lethal 819 00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:14,040 Speaker 2: injection is it could you can stay alive for a 820 00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,799 Speaker 2: while after you get it. There's actually been cases of 821 00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,799 Speaker 2: it that it has failed and the person didn't die. 822 00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:24,120 Speaker 2: But you can get pulmonary edema, which is getting fluid 823 00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:26,480 Speaker 2: in your lungs, and I feel like that would just 824 00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,920 Speaker 2: be the most terrible, excruciating death. At least with the 825 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,560 Speaker 2: firing squad, it's like it gets the job done and 826 00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,160 Speaker 2: it's quick. I feel like you wouldn't even feel it. 827 00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:40,040 Speaker 2: It just would be over. You know, right, it's silly 828 00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:43,280 Speaker 2: to say that, but honestly, well you're. 829 00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:49,280 Speaker 3: Right, and that's exactly right, because there have been studies. 830 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:53,120 Speaker 3: I know, there was a professor Deborah Denno, who did 831 00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:58,400 Speaker 3: a study on different methods of execution and concluded, just 832 00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,000 Speaker 3: as you have, is that the death I mean that 833 00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:06,719 Speaker 3: the firing squad is by far the most humane and 834 00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,160 Speaker 3: you know, the best method for carrying out the death 835 00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:15,400 Speaker 3: penalty because death is almost instantaneous. You know, you're shot 836 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,480 Speaker 3: in the heart, your heart stops beating and you're dead 837 00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:23,560 Speaker 3: and seconds but it's but it doesn't look good, okay, 838 00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:27,000 Speaker 3: And that's what that's what people want, you know, that's 839 00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,520 Speaker 3: what lethal injection is all about. It's not only supposed 840 00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:34,040 Speaker 3: to be you know, humane way of killing somebody. You know, 841 00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:36,799 Speaker 3: you put these lethal drugs in their system, but you 842 00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,800 Speaker 3: know they also put in, or they have in the past, 843 00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:44,760 Speaker 3: they put in a paralytic which stops you your body 844 00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:48,600 Speaker 3: from gyrating or anything like that, which doesn't look good. 845 00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:53,120 Speaker 3: And and you know that's the only reason that paralytic 846 00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:58,040 Speaker 3: is part of the lethal injection mixture is so people 847 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:02,160 Speaker 3: who are observing the death penalty on that day the execution, 848 00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:07,520 Speaker 3: aren't uncomfortable with unsightly things that might happen with your body. 849 00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:08,760 Speaker 3: It's crazy. 850 00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:13,400 Speaker 2: It really is just a noise the shit out of me, honestly. Yeah, 851 00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:18,000 Speaker 2: So let's talk about something a little fun. In the book, 852 00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:22,480 Speaker 2: you covered that there were forty one last meals. And 853 00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:24,760 Speaker 2: I don't know if you know this, but there's this 854 00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:28,560 Speaker 2: guy I covered this like within the year. There's this 855 00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:33,160 Speaker 2: guy on Instagram that gets a list of what everyone's 856 00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:35,920 Speaker 2: last meal was and then he cooks the meal and 857 00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,560 Speaker 2: he rates it, which I just think is kind of 858 00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:42,000 Speaker 2: like an interesting thing. Did you what are some of 859 00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:45,120 Speaker 2: did you get to hear what some of the last 860 00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:50,360 Speaker 2: meals people chose? And does are there people because it 861 00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,720 Speaker 2: looks like there was forty six inmates, but there was 862 00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,440 Speaker 2: only forty one last meal. So are there some people 863 00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,240 Speaker 2: that are just like, I don't care, I don't I 864 00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:01,080 Speaker 2: don't want to pretend to be in this kind of. 865 00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:06,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, there there are people who don't want 866 00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:11,240 Speaker 3: to last meal. You know they're there. I guess you 867 00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:15,920 Speaker 3: know that for some there's religious reasons, you know why 868 00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:22,640 Speaker 3: they don't eat, you know, immediately before their execution. You 869 00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:24,880 Speaker 3: know that that I've read about. But then you know 870 00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,520 Speaker 3: there are others who you know, they order you know, 871 00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:33,360 Speaker 3: milkshakes and pints of ice cream and uh, you know, 872 00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:38,680 Speaker 3: doctor pepper seemed to be something that that people were 873 00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:43,760 Speaker 3: interested in getting, you know, bottles of uh doctor pepper, 874 00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:46,720 Speaker 3: and and you know some of them are very extravagant. 875 00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:50,000 Speaker 3: And so what I've as I understand it, you know, 876 00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:56,560 Speaker 3: some states set a limits, you know, like your milk 877 00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:00,720 Speaker 3: can cost twenty five dollars or whatever. The interesting thing 878 00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:04,040 Speaker 3: that that Texas did, and they used to have elaborate 879 00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:07,919 Speaker 3: last meals, was that they said, well, you know, we're 880 00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:10,240 Speaker 3: not going to do that anymore. So whatever every other 881 00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:12,880 Speaker 3: inmates eating on that day, that's what you that's what 882 00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:16,120 Speaker 3: you get for your for your meal. And as I said, 883 00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:21,080 Speaker 3: Texas carries out more educations by far than any other state. 884 00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:25,600 Speaker 3: But yeah, you know, I guess you know, I've when 885 00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:27,400 Speaker 3: I looked at some of these, you know, they they 886 00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:31,480 Speaker 3: want an apple pie, or they want you know, fried chicken, 887 00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:36,840 Speaker 3: or they want you know, hamburgers. And I mean, I 888 00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,960 Speaker 3: don't know, I've never been able to determine, you know, 889 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,959 Speaker 3: how much they eat of those things. And I can't 890 00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:47,280 Speaker 3: imagine that if I knew I was going to be executed, 891 00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:51,440 Speaker 3: you know, in the evening, that I'd really have an 892 00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:56,960 Speaker 3: appetite or you know, I'm waiting on the Supreme Court 893 00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,280 Speaker 3: to delay my execution. I don't know that I could 894 01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,280 Speaker 3: sit down and have a meal waiting to hear from 895 01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:05,400 Speaker 3: the Supreme Court whether they're going to stop the execution 896 01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:11,400 Speaker 3: or not. But you know, people uh do strange things 897 01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:15,320 Speaker 3: on the verge of execution, including some of the things 898 01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:19,880 Speaker 3: that they say, which are even more interesting at times. 899 01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:23,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I am interested in that they get. So some 900 01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:27,680 Speaker 2: people give final statements. Has there ever been a shocking 901 01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:31,800 Speaker 2: one where someone confesses to a murder that they might 902 01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:34,400 Speaker 2: not have ever said that they did, or said something 903 01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:37,120 Speaker 2: really mean to some of the victims' families or anything 904 01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:37,520 Speaker 2: like that. 905 01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:43,920 Speaker 3: Well, you know, that's that's a good question. There certainly are, 906 01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:48,520 Speaker 3: at least in the in the executions that I wrote about. 907 01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:53,800 Speaker 3: You know, there were still inmates who were defiant. You 908 01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,240 Speaker 3: know that they were innocent, and you know, you know, 909 01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:01,760 Speaker 3: an innocent man is being execute tonight and and things 910 01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,800 Speaker 3: like that. You know, there were people who said nothing, 911 01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:12,480 Speaker 3: and that's probably the most common Yeah, some of them 912 01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:17,080 Speaker 3: were really strange. There was one guy, kel Coleburn Brown, 913 01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:21,280 Speaker 3: and he was he was from the state of Washington, 914 01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:25,240 Speaker 3: and he it was a terrible crime. You know. He 915 01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:30,360 Speaker 3: he dragged this woman off the street after she came 916 01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:34,320 Speaker 3: out from work, you know, tied her up and sexually 917 01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:38,040 Speaker 3: assaulted her over a period of time. Then he threw 918 01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:40,640 Speaker 3: her in this in the trunk of his car, and 919 01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:45,200 Speaker 3: he was going to fly from the Washington uh, the 920 01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:48,720 Speaker 3: Seattle airport, and he put her in she he left 921 01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:50,120 Speaker 3: her in the trunk and was going to leave the 922 01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:51,960 Speaker 3: car there, and then he decided, well, you know, I 923 01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:54,760 Speaker 3: probably shouldn't leave her in there because she's gonna make noise, 924 01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:57,520 Speaker 3: and went back and stabbed her to death, left her 925 01:01:57,520 --> 01:01:59,920 Speaker 3: in the car, went to California, was going to do 926 01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:04,080 Speaker 3: the same thing to another woman, and she was fortunate 927 01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:08,120 Speaker 3: enough to escape from the bondage he had or tied 928 01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:11,560 Speaker 3: up as well, and he got caught. But the thing 929 01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:16,520 Speaker 3: about him is he's on the gurdy, Okay, he's about 930 01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:23,880 Speaker 3: to get the lethal injection, and he's complaining that he 931 01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:32,400 Speaker 3: is about to die for one murder. Okay, When what 932 01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:39,760 Speaker 3: was the serial killer in Washington who murdered, you know, 933 01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:43,160 Speaker 3: I don't know how many women, and they didn't give 934 01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:47,040 Speaker 3: him the death penalty because he agreed to cooperate so 935 01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:50,760 Speaker 3: that he could is at the Green River murders or whatever, 936 01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:54,000 Speaker 3: so he could he would cooperate and tell him where 937 01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:56,760 Speaker 3: other bodies were found or were left, so they he 938 01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:58,680 Speaker 3: didn't get the death bone. He said, I don't know 939 01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:01,680 Speaker 3: how this is fair, said, I only killed one person, 940 01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:05,160 Speaker 3: and he killed fifty and he didn't get the death penalty. 941 01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:08,600 Speaker 3: So think about the logic of that. This guy's laying 942 01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:12,160 Speaker 3: there saying, well, I only murdered one. Well, you know, 943 01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:17,840 Speaker 3: that's enough to get the death penalty one? And is 944 01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:22,200 Speaker 3: that a justification that the other guy? You know? So 945 01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:24,840 Speaker 3: you know, And my other favorite one, there was a 946 01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:30,760 Speaker 3: guy in Arizona who was getting executed. He was originally 947 01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:36,640 Speaker 3: from Oklahoma. And he's on the gurney and you know, 948 01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:40,320 Speaker 3: if you're a college football fan or not in Oklahoma, 949 01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:45,320 Speaker 3: the football is king in one of the sayings there 950 01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:49,160 Speaker 3: is Boomer Sooner. That's what they say at the football game, 951 01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:52,720 Speaker 3: Boomer Sooner. This guy's laying on the gurney and he said, 952 01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:54,640 Speaker 3: you have anything you want to say? And he says 953 01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:59,800 Speaker 3: Boomer Sooner. So his last thought on this planet wasn't 954 01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,040 Speaker 3: oh I feel bad, I'm sorry for what I did. 955 01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:05,960 Speaker 3: I'm sorry for the pain I guys. His was a 956 01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:09,480 Speaker 3: cheer on the University of Oklahoma's football team. 957 01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:13,080 Speaker 2: Wow, that's interesting, you know, I think about this a 958 01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:15,920 Speaker 2: lot that people that do these super crazy crimes, like 959 01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,160 Speaker 2: even the guy that you were talking about that was 960 01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:22,360 Speaker 2: tying this woman up sexually assaulting ended up killing or 961 01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:27,080 Speaker 2: like they're I don't really think that most of these 962 01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:31,200 Speaker 2: people are normal minded like you and I, and they 963 01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:34,560 Speaker 2: just they don't truly feel bad about it. They just 964 01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:38,160 Speaker 2: you know, So it would be shocking to me actually 965 01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:40,720 Speaker 2: that a lot of people would say, oh, I feel 966 01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:44,640 Speaker 2: bad for doing this, Because when you go that extra 967 01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:47,200 Speaker 2: step to do stuff like that to a person, I 968 01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:49,960 Speaker 2: just I think you're like missing a chip, you know 969 01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:53,080 Speaker 2: that that makes you have that kind of empathy for 970 01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:56,640 Speaker 2: others and stuff like that. So I'm not shocked that 971 01:04:56,720 --> 01:04:58,800 Speaker 2: you're saying that he was trying to cheer on a 972 01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:00,919 Speaker 2: football team, like right before he died. 973 01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:01,160 Speaker 1: You know. 974 01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:04,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, well you're yeah, I mean you're you're you're right, 975 01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:09,160 Speaker 3: and you're you're giving you know, the classic description of 976 01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:13,240 Speaker 3: a psychopath, you know, someone with without empathy. Uh, you know, 977 01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:17,960 Speaker 3: someone who has no remorse, you know, And a lot 978 01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:20,600 Speaker 3: of these people or are those kind of people you know, 979 01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:24,880 Speaker 3: like we might step on an ant, they may you know, 980 01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:29,840 Speaker 3: strangle a woman to death. I mean, uh, it's just uh, 981 01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:35,320 Speaker 3: you know, it's it's a strange a strange kind of 982 01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:39,360 Speaker 3: it's hard to even describe it. It's sort of a 983 01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:45,760 Speaker 3: bizarre view of life and the value of life. 984 01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:48,400 Speaker 2: But just as you're saying, like you step on an ant, right, 985 01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:51,000 Speaker 2: you don't you don't go in the house and say 986 01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:53,800 Speaker 2: and think about that all night, like, oh, I really 987 01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,640 Speaker 2: I feel bad. I shouldn't have did that, Like you 988 01:05:57,400 --> 01:05:59,760 Speaker 2: you don't care, right, It's it's the same thing, but 989 01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:03,160 Speaker 2: you're talking about another human. That's that's the level of 990 01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:08,000 Speaker 2: you know, sympathy that they have in those cases. All right, 991 01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:11,400 Speaker 2: let's talk about So you have a syndicated column on 992 01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:14,440 Speaker 2: crime and punishment where I know you said that you 993 01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:17,960 Speaker 2: had this this blog that was mattmanngino dot com and 994 01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:20,040 Speaker 2: you work on that all the time. But this is 995 01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:22,840 Speaker 2: this syndicated column is something different. 996 01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:27,320 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yeah, it is. It's something that I really 997 01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:30,160 Speaker 3: enjoy and I've had a lot of fun with it. 998 01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:35,560 Speaker 3: And it's distributed by creators UH Syndicate, and so I 999 01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:40,520 Speaker 3: write a weekly column column on crime and punishment or 1000 01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:43,960 Speaker 3: you know, crime and conduct is actually the name of 1001 01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:46,440 Speaker 3: the call of the column and and so you know, 1002 01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:53,680 Speaker 3: it's distributed to newspapers around the country. Newspapers can pick 1003 01:06:53,720 --> 01:07:00,600 Speaker 3: it up you know regularly, regularly or you know, every 1004 01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:03,760 Speaker 3: so often. So it's just fun. I like to do it. 1005 01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:09,360 Speaker 3: I had I did for about three years right for 1006 01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:15,120 Speaker 3: Gatehouse Syndicated, and then they were ultimately bought out, so 1007 01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:19,200 Speaker 3: I spent about a year or more without writing a column. 1008 01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:24,439 Speaker 3: But it's something I really enjoy doing and I get 1009 01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:26,880 Speaker 3: to talk about a lot of different things. 1010 01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:30,280 Speaker 2: What are the some of the more recent topics that 1011 01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:31,880 Speaker 2: you've covered in this column. 1012 01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:38,400 Speaker 3: Well, you know, unfortunately there are so many things to 1013 01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:41,600 Speaker 3: write about right now, you know, with you know, what's 1014 01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:48,080 Speaker 3: going on with the trials involving Donald Trump. The Supreme 1015 01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:53,240 Speaker 3: Court has made some really interesting decisions recently. A column 1016 01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:57,840 Speaker 3: I wrote within the last couple of weeks is you 1017 01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:02,160 Speaker 3: may remember this Susan Smith case South Carolina, which was 1018 01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:05,880 Speaker 3: really kind of one of those first you know, media 1019 01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:10,440 Speaker 3: mob kind of cases that were you know, covered daily 1020 01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:14,640 Speaker 3: and written about daily. And you know, so this is 1021 01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:19,200 Speaker 3: the anniversary and she's up for parole, and she has 1022 01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:23,040 Speaker 3: a parole hearing in November, and she's continued, Susan Smith 1023 01:08:23,160 --> 01:08:27,400 Speaker 3: to do bizarre things in prison late, you know, have 1024 01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:32,920 Speaker 3: sex with guards and you know, have phone sex with 1025 01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:37,040 Speaker 3: people that she's trying to get money from when she 1026 01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:41,040 Speaker 3: she gets out of prison. So I don't. And that's 1027 01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:43,559 Speaker 3: someone you know, I spent six years on the parole 1028 01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:47,240 Speaker 3: board in Pennsylvania, so I made thousands of decisions with 1029 01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:52,960 Speaker 3: regard to parole after I was the district attorney in 1030 01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:57,400 Speaker 3: Lawrence County. And Susan Smith is not going to be 1031 01:08:57,439 --> 01:09:02,120 Speaker 3: getting out in November after her for all interview, at least, 1032 01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:02,960 Speaker 3: that's what I think. 1033 01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:08,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope not. I mean, she she killed her children. 1034 01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:11,439 Speaker 2: It was even just worse than that, the lying about that, 1035 01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:16,680 Speaker 2: you know, saying that someone carjacked her or something and 1036 01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:18,880 Speaker 2: took the car with her children in it and all 1037 01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:19,320 Speaker 2: that stuff. 1038 01:09:19,360 --> 01:09:21,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, she remember, I mean it was you know, she 1039 01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:23,840 Speaker 3: she was in South Carolina and she said, you know, 1040 01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:30,200 Speaker 3: a black man carjackedor led her out, but took the 1041 01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:33,080 Speaker 3: car with the kids in it, you know, so that 1042 01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:38,600 Speaker 3: you know, created a fear in South Carolina and then ultimately, 1043 01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:43,360 Speaker 3: you know, she was exposed as a liar and ultimately 1044 01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:45,720 Speaker 3: was trying to get rid of her children because she 1045 01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:49,280 Speaker 3: was having an affair with a guy who didn't want 1046 01:09:49,280 --> 01:09:49,960 Speaker 3: to have children. 1047 01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:54,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and she's kind of she's young, right, isn't she 1048 01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:56,759 Speaker 2: like between fifty and sixty? 1049 01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:00,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, she's not. I mean, so I've I believe 1050 01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:03,920 Speaker 3: she was in her early twenties when that happened, and 1051 01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:08,519 Speaker 3: that was it was about thirty years ago, so yeah, 1052 01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:10,440 Speaker 3: she'd be in her fifties. 1053 01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:14,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. I remember we were just talking about 1054 01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:17,120 Speaker 2: this on one of our news episodes a few weeks ago. 1055 01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:21,160 Speaker 2: I just can't believe that someone that kills both of 1056 01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:23,559 Speaker 2: their children in that way, I mean, being strapped into 1057 01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:27,000 Speaker 2: a car seat and drowning, would just be allowed to 1058 01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:30,120 Speaker 2: get out and live another you know, up to forty 1059 01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:33,080 Speaker 2: years out of a life, having a whole new life. 1060 01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:37,120 Speaker 2: You know, it's just not right. Where can people get 1061 01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:38,160 Speaker 2: your book? 1062 01:10:40,040 --> 01:10:43,200 Speaker 3: So you can get my book at a couple of 1063 01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:48,680 Speaker 3: different places. So the publisher is McFarland in Company. So 1064 01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:53,439 Speaker 3: you could go on to McFarland in company's website. It's 1065 01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:57,160 Speaker 3: also available you know, at Barnes and Nobles and Amazon 1066 01:10:57,240 --> 01:11:01,400 Speaker 3: and all the places that you would typically go online 1067 01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:04,759 Speaker 3: to buy a book if you just you know, put 1068 01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:10,040 Speaker 3: a Mangino or the Executioner's tool and also you can 1069 01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:14,440 Speaker 3: you could get it directly from me again at Mattmangino 1070 01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:17,880 Speaker 3: dot com. Uh, you'd be able to get the book 1071 01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:18,639 Speaker 3: there as well. 1072 01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:22,479 Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for being here today. This 1073 01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,479 Speaker 2: was really just taught us a lot about the death 1074 01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:27,320 Speaker 2: penalty and I'm glad we got to talk to you 1075 01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:27,840 Speaker 2: about it. 1076 01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:31,040 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, thanks for having me. I think it's just 1077 01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:34,800 Speaker 3: great what you do. Uh and and uh, you know, 1078 01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:40,760 Speaker 3: for your listeners and viewers. It's just it's so important 1079 01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:43,840 Speaker 3: to get these issues out and I think you do 1080 01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:46,880 Speaker 3: a tremendous job at it. And it was an honor 1081 01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:48,799 Speaker 3: to be on your program today. 1082 01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:52,120 Speaker 2: Thanks so much. I'll see you soon, all right, see you. 1083 01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:01,640 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Mother nos Death. As a reminder, 1084 01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:05,599 Speaker 2: my training is as a pathologist's assistant. I have a 1085 01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:10,000 Speaker 2: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education. 1086 01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:13,280 Speaker 2: I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed 1087 01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:17,000 Speaker 2: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of 1088 01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:22,240 Speaker 2: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social 1089 01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:25,800 Speaker 2: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based 1090 01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:29,760 Speaker 2: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make 1091 01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:34,639 Speaker 2: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember 1092 01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:37,799 Speaker 2: that science is changing every day, and the opinions expressed 1093 01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,439 Speaker 2: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those 1094 01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:44,240 Speaker 2: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having 1095 01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:48,280 Speaker 2: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a 1096 01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:52,679 Speaker 2: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent 1097 01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:57,439 Speaker 2: care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and 1098 01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:02,080 Speaker 2: subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or 1099 01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:13,080 Speaker 2: anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks