Speaker 1: This is Jenna Fisher, I played Pam Beasley. Hello, folks,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me here today. That's right,
Speaker 1: she's back. Uh. This is the office Deep Dive and
Speaker 1: I am your host, Brian baum Gartner. Today I am
Speaker 1: so thrilled to be bringing you the second half of
Speaker 1: my conversation with Jenna, and this time we are diving
Speaker 1: right in to the good stuff. That's right, the real
Speaker 1: reason you're all here Jim and Pam, p B and
Speaker 1: freaking Jay. Now, over the years, Jenna and John have
Speaker 1: been asked approximately eight billion questions about Jim and Pam's relationship.
Speaker 1: So I have to say I almost didn't even want
Speaker 1: to ask them about it, but but I did, and
Speaker 1: I was blown away by how interesting it was to
Speaker 1: talk about Jenna in particular, shared so many incredible insights
Speaker 1: into their relationship and and what made it unique on television,
Speaker 1: and why she and John are actually not a couple
Speaker 1: in real life, and trust me, they are not anyway.
Speaker 1: That is just the beginning. This conversation was so fascinating,
Speaker 1: as every conversation with Jenna is. I cannot say enough
Speaker 1: good things about her. So go ahead and welcome to
Speaker 1: your ear holes. Miss Jenna Fisher, Bubble and Squeak. I
Speaker 1: love it, Bubble and Squeaker, Bubble and Squeaker cooking at
Speaker 1: every More lived from the I was literally laying in
Speaker 1: bed last night thinking about this, Like if you think
Speaker 1: about the office as like a person or a body
Speaker 1: or something, Pam was the heart and your relationship with
Speaker 1: so many different people, well, with everybody, but really those three,
Speaker 1: you know, Jim and Dwight and Michael, obviously the relationship
Speaker 1: with Jim. Why do you think that that relationship resonated
Speaker 1: so much with with audiences? Oh, I think it's the
Speaker 1: unrequited love. I think we've all been there. We've all
Speaker 1: been in love with someone who either didn't love us
Speaker 1: or couldn't love us, or because of circumstances or distance
Speaker 1: or whatever these things were, we're keeping us from being
Speaker 1: able to fully express our feelings. The longing. And then
Speaker 1: I think additionally the clear chemistry between the characters that
Speaker 1: you could see that they were meant to be together
Speaker 1: and you just rooted for them absolutely. But I think
Speaker 1: that there was also something about your performance and John's performance.
Speaker 1: You showed such heart and vulnerability that I think people
Speaker 1: were really rooting for you, whether they had found what
Speaker 1: they wanted to or not. Well. I think both Pam
Speaker 1: and Jim are very good people. They're polite. It's one
Speaker 1: of the reasons why it takes them so long. And uh,
Speaker 1: I think you always want the good guy to win,
Speaker 1: so I think you did want them to find one
Speaker 1: another and be together. It's hopeful, right. Um, Nothing throughout
Speaker 1: the entire his tree of the show brought production to
Speaker 1: a screeching halt, like a big Jim Pam moment. It's true,
Speaker 1: and I say that with love and also with utter frustration.
Speaker 1: It Um, Yeah, we really really cared. I mean John
Speaker 1: and I would fight hard for what we believed and
Speaker 1: we were usually on the same page with Jim and Pam.
Speaker 1: We were had like a singular mind when it came
Speaker 1: to Jim and Pam. For the most part, there was
Speaker 1: often one Jim Pam moment per episode, and it was
Speaker 1: either where they're going to connect in some super special
Speaker 1: swoony way, or they're gonna misstep in some way where
Speaker 1: one of them gets their feelings hurt. And there was
Speaker 1: this very fine line that we had to walk all
Speaker 1: the time. So, for example, shooting a scene over and
Speaker 1: over and over again where this time they can touch hands,
Speaker 1: but then we have to do one where they don't
Speaker 1: touch hands because it might be too much when their
Speaker 1: hand if their hands touch, that might be going to
Speaker 1: fall are Or do we end it with a hug?
Speaker 1: Or should he kiss her cheek? Before all of these
Speaker 1: little ways, how much were they allowed to literally touch
Speaker 1: one another, look at each other's eyes, swoon at each other?
Speaker 1: I mean we would we would spend hours debating and
Speaker 1: shooting alternates of these Jim Pam scenes and ours is
Speaker 1: not an exaggeration. But what's amazing is this wasn't like
Speaker 1: mystical producers in another land talking about it. This was
Speaker 1: you and John who are in there in question? No, No,
Speaker 1: not at all. No. I mean, I think it speaks
Speaker 1: to the two of you as artists, but I think
Speaker 1: that there's also the camera as a character. And what
Speaker 1: I recall is you and John, specifically with greg Or
Speaker 1: Ken or one of the other directors, you know, sort
Speaker 1: of two major questions, who is seeing this moment? Is
Speaker 1: the camera seeing this moment? And how does that change
Speaker 1: my behavior in this moment? And those were the things
Speaker 1: that I feel like well brought production to a screeching hold.
Speaker 1: This was one of the most fun elements of working
Speaker 1: on our show was this camera as a character, because
Speaker 1: this idea that when you know the camera is filming you,
Speaker 1: it affects your behavior. It certainly affects Michael's behavior. When
Speaker 1: he knows the camera is on him, he performs for
Speaker 1: the camera. He does things like makes giant declarations and
Speaker 1: pledges of money to Oscar's nephews Walkathon in front of
Speaker 1: the camera. But then when he doesn't know that the
Speaker 1: camera is shooting through the blinds, he tries to talk
Speaker 1: his way out of it. So that is so fun
Speaker 1: to play. And similarly with Jim and Pam, how do
Speaker 1: Jim and Pam behave when they know they're being watched
Speaker 1: and observed, and then how do they behave with one
Speaker 1: another when they can't see the camera when the camera
Speaker 1: is deep in the kitchen shooting through the blinds. I
Speaker 1: absolutely loved those nuances. Those were some of the most
Speaker 1: fun things to play with on our show. Yes, well,
Speaker 1: and when I directed, and I'm not just saying well
Speaker 1: what I directed to get in the fact that I directed,
Speaker 1: But there was a moment later on season eight, Kathy
Speaker 1: Lindsay broad like Kathy and Jim goes away to Florida,
Speaker 1: and Cathy's clearly trying to get the moves on him.
Speaker 1: It's taking place in Jim's bedroom and we had to shoot.
Speaker 1: The only way to shoot the room was through the windows,
Speaker 1: because if the cameras were in the room, we would
Speaker 1: not have gotten the interaction between Kathy and Jim that
Speaker 1: we ultimately wanted. But then there was a phone call
Speaker 1: with Pam. You with Pam that happened there and I
Speaker 1: remember sitting in You weren't Invalencia, You were probably home.
Speaker 1: Did I not come because I have a very vivid
Speaker 1: memory of being there when Jim was a smug bedbug?
Speaker 1: Was that your episode smug Bedbugs? I have a memory
Speaker 1: of watching Rain and John crack up as John was
Speaker 1: a smug bedbug. I think that you came for the
Speaker 1: phone call. But we had a huge conversation about you
Speaker 1: were involved in what the interaction was between Kathy and Jim,
Speaker 1: because John wanted you involved and you wanted to be involved,
Speaker 1: and how that interaction, what that meant for your relationship
Speaker 1: with Jim. Anyway, I think it just speaks to everybody
Speaker 1: wanting to get it right. Yeah, we cared on this
Speaker 1: show very deeply. Everybody cared very very much, And I
Speaker 1: think that started with Greg. Greg's heart was in this show,
Speaker 1: and you could tell, and he delighted. He delighted in
Speaker 1: getting it right, and and we would shoot something and
Speaker 1: we would all look over at the monitors at Greg
Speaker 1: and see if he was doing his little handclap with
Speaker 1: his little smile, and he puts his eyes up in
Speaker 1: the air, you know, because that's when we knew we
Speaker 1: nailed it. And he was such a great barometer for that.
Speaker 1: When did you When did you start realizing or noticing
Speaker 1: that Jim and Pam's relationship was becoming so important to
Speaker 1: people outside and was it infringing on your real life? Well,
Speaker 1: realizing that my friend John and I couldn't go anywhere
Speaker 1: in public together as friends or else people would lose
Speaker 1: their minds. They didn't know how to deal with that.
Speaker 1: They didn't know how. And even today people don't know
Speaker 1: how John and I are not a couple in real life.
Speaker 1: They don't understand it. And I don't know how to
Speaker 1: explain it because it's a little bit like telling kids
Speaker 1: there's no Santa. It's like I don't want to break
Speaker 1: anyone's heart. So it's hard. It's it's really hard. You
Speaker 1: should just explain that he's a real pain in the
Speaker 1: as in real life. Why would you not just say that?
Speaker 1: But that's weird. I have to. I feel like I
Speaker 1: have to justify why John and I, which are actually
Speaker 1: in love, And the bottom line is we were playing characters.
Speaker 1: But I know that if people think of us as
Speaker 1: John and Jenna, then it's destroying some of the magic
Speaker 1: of Jim and Pam. But I'm not Pam in real
Speaker 1: life and he's not Jim in real life, and in
Speaker 1: real life we're mismatched. He is perfectly matched with Emily
Speaker 1: and I'm perfectly matched with Lee. And you know us
Speaker 1: all both, And in fact, I feel like if anyone
Speaker 1: wants to marry anyone, they want to marry Emily or Lee,
Speaker 1: they don't want to actually marry me or John. Is
Speaker 1: that a good description of why John and I are
Speaker 1: not imagined real life because you know us both. Yes,
Speaker 1: I think that that's a great description. I also think, yeah,
Speaker 1: you both were playing characters, and I think that you um,
Speaker 1: and you've expressed today how different you are from Pam
Speaker 1: and John is different from Jim. People perceive you to
Speaker 1: be that even you know, if someone has a couple
Speaker 1: of minute interaction with me, they're they're not going to
Speaker 1: mistake me for Kevin. And I think that's so true
Speaker 1: of like Angela as well. Angela is like a bubbly cheerleader.
Speaker 1: She's your best friend in two minutes. She's so not
Speaker 1: the bitchy Angela Martin that she plays on the show
Speaker 1: most of the time. Oh come on, but but I
Speaker 1: do see how John and I the Lion is a
Speaker 1: little more blurred, Like you can have an interaction with
Speaker 1: John and I and think maybe that we really are
Speaker 1: just like Pam or just like Yim. Yes, yeah, um, okay.
Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite moment or moments between the
Speaker 1: two of you that you've got to play together? Yes.
Speaker 1: One of my first favorite moments is when we are
Speaker 1: up on the roof eating the grilled cheese sandwiches and
Speaker 1: you and Rain are doing at the fireworks out in
Speaker 1: the lawn. And that was super special because we had
Speaker 1: this skeleton crew. Everyone had gone home for the day
Speaker 1: and up until this point we had mostly only ever
Speaker 1: been shooting in a big group in the office with
Speaker 1: lots of people, and here it was just me and
Speaker 1: John on some lawn chairs. It was a summer evening,
Speaker 1: like a warm breeze, candlelight. Greg is up on the roof,
Speaker 1: just a couple of crew members were up on the roof,
Speaker 1: and it was like so peaceful up there, the five
Speaker 1: of us and then watching you and Rain, who I
Speaker 1: believe we had no way of communicating with, yeah, just
Speaker 1: setting off fireworks. It just all felt really real and lovely.
Speaker 1: So that moment is one of my favorite moments. And
Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna edit out you're
Speaker 1: talking about Greg and the other two crew members up there,
Speaker 1: because then you're describing city there with John. That's why
Speaker 1: people think it's a warm summer breeze and we were
Speaker 1: sitting in lawn chairs on the roof. But some of
Speaker 1: it like it's true. It's like, you know, Matt Son
Speaker 1: is up on the roof and Greg is there, and
Speaker 1: we're all just none of us can believe we're on
Speaker 1: the roof. And we had to take this. They had
Speaker 1: this old rickety rusted ladder that was on the side
Speaker 1: of the roof that everybody else climbed up, but since
Speaker 1: John and I were cast members, we weren't allowed, so
Speaker 1: they like fork lifted us up there on this wearing
Speaker 1: a weird harness. It was very funny. Um, were you
Speaker 1: worried when Pam and Jim got married that was gonna
Speaker 1: screw things up? I wasn't because we had been together
Speaker 1: now for a couple of seasons. So I think the
Speaker 1: question was can they get together and be a stable
Speaker 1: couple and will we still care? And and I remember
Speaker 1: having a conversation with Greg where Greg was like, well,
Speaker 1: you know what's going to lose people is if we
Speaker 1: just keep manufacturing these affairs and these you know, weird
Speaker 1: ways that we keep them apart. That's exhausting and it's
Speaker 1: not realistic. And so what we're going to need to
Speaker 1: do is bring them together and then give them obstacles
Speaker 1: to overcome as a couple. So, rather than obstacles that
Speaker 1: keep them from being a couple, give them obstacles to
Speaker 1: break through as a couple, like Pam wanting to go
Speaker 1: to art school or Jim wanting to start his own business,
Speaker 1: or having their first kid or whatever these things were
Speaker 1: that they were going to have to weather the storm together,
Speaker 1: that that would be more interesting and more realistic, and
Speaker 1: people loved it. I think that's so smart, so smart
Speaker 1: because but he said, you know what's not going to
Speaker 1: be satisfying is if they get together at the end
Speaker 1: of season nine after multiple affairs, and like everyone's gonna
Speaker 1: be like, Yay, I guess you know. Congrats. I hope
Speaker 1: you enjoy your marriage with all your horrible baggage. Look
Speaker 1: totally right. That's not a happy ending. I've never heard
Speaker 1: that is so smart. Yeah, okay, so I talked again
Speaker 1: about sort of that emotional core. Dwight. Talk to me
Speaker 1: a little bit about the relationship between the two of
Speaker 1: you and how that changed and evolved. I mean, you
Speaker 1: were with Jim adversaries and made you crazy forever, and
Speaker 1: then ultimately by the end, he says that you're his
Speaker 1: best friend. Dwight, doesw does you know? I think it's
Speaker 1: that first episode the Injury, when Pam has that line,
Speaker 1: Dwight is kind of my friend. But I think there's
Speaker 1: other things. You know, Jim and Pam spends so much
Speaker 1: time teasing Dwight, and I think even go too far.
Speaker 1: A few times in my rewatching of the show, I
Speaker 1: think there's a few times when we're like, actually a
Speaker 1: little cruel to him that makes me cringe and I
Speaker 1: feel like, oh, that wasn't our best moment, but I
Speaker 1: appreciate because we allow our characters too. We don't all
Speaker 1: every day have perfect moments, right. But it's so hard
Speaker 1: for me to think about Pam's relationship with Dwight without
Speaker 1: thinking about my relationship to Rain. Rain is a deeply
Speaker 1: soulful person. He's also like a curmudgeon ly old man.
Speaker 1: He's really cranky sometimes, and on set he would be hilarious.
Speaker 1: Do you remember the time do you remember the time
Speaker 1: he declared, Oh my god, it was so funny. We
Speaker 1: were getting ready to shoot and he said, hold on, wait,
Speaker 1: just hold on, everybody, hold on for a second. I
Speaker 1: have an announcement. Everyone on Monday's you do not need
Speaker 1: to ask me how my weekend was anymore? All right,
Speaker 1: every single person asked me how my weekend was. Just
Speaker 1: assume it was fine. We were like, where is this
Speaker 1: coming from? Right? And I talked to him about this,
Speaker 1: and he goes, Jenna, that is not true. I said
Speaker 1: that on a Tuesday. I said, only asked me how
Speaker 1: my weekend was on Mondays. No more of this bleeding
Speaker 1: into Tuesday Mondays. And he went crazy because you and
Speaker 1: I know what he was talking about. Because it's five
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning, and every single person that you
Speaker 1: passed is like, hello, good morning. How was your weekend?
Speaker 1: And he what he was saying was like, you don't
Speaker 1: have to talk to me. We just saw each other
Speaker 1: on Friday night. We're good, We're good. Yes, it's so true.
Speaker 1: So he would be like that guy on this set.
Speaker 1: It was like so funny. But then at the same time,
Speaker 1: in moments of deep crisis, I have phoned him. I
Speaker 1: had a job offer that was going to take me
Speaker 1: out of town and would uproot my family for a
Speaker 1: period of time that I really wrestled with the decision.
Speaker 1: I called him and he counseled me. He is he
Speaker 1: has that in him, a type of counselor, and I
Speaker 1: value him so deeply in my life. But then like
Speaker 1: like he'll call me up and he'll be like, do
Speaker 1: you want to go to lunch? And I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean because you sound like you want to go
Speaker 1: so bad, Like is it a chore or do you
Speaker 1: want to go? Just like no, I want to lunch
Speaker 1: with you, Like all right, let's go to lunch. And
Speaker 1: then you go to lunch and I was just sort
Speaker 1: of like, are you liking our lunch. Are we having
Speaker 1: a good lunch? How are you tell me about you?
Speaker 1: And all this so funny, but then like if I
Speaker 1: were to do you know what I mean? So it's
Speaker 1: like very much like the Pammed White where Pam will
Speaker 1: like be like, oh, I love Dwight. I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: say something nice to him, and then he'll just be like, Pam,
Speaker 1: something about knives, something about snakes or bears, and she's like, yeah, okay, right, okay,
Speaker 1: But so I guess, um, I feel deeply loved by Rain,
Speaker 1: and I think Pam fell deeply loved by Dwight as well,
Speaker 1: Like they had a real bond, they really cared for
Speaker 1: one another eventually eventually yeah. Um. Well, and it's similar
Speaker 1: to your relationship with Michael, right, I mean from where
Speaker 1: that relationship started and him fake firing you to him
Speaker 1: leaving and you you having sort of that final moment
Speaker 1: with him, Um, what did he say to you? Well,
Speaker 1: it wasn't so much what he said to me. Um.
Speaker 1: Paul Fie directed that episode Goodbye Michael, and Uh we
Speaker 1: were at the airport and Paul Fiq said, Jenna, I
Speaker 1: want you to just run up and just say goodbye.
Speaker 1: To Steve. Your friend, Steve, this is your last scene
Speaker 1: with him, so say goodbye. We're not going to use
Speaker 1: the sound. We're just going to have a spy shot
Speaker 1: on you. So I thought, okay. So I ran up
Speaker 1: to Steve and I just told him all the ways
Speaker 1: I was going to miss him and how grateful I
Speaker 1: was for his friendship and the privilege of working with him.
Speaker 1: And I'm sobbing, and he's sobbing, and we're hugging and
Speaker 1: and I didn't want to let him go, and I
Speaker 1: didn't want the scene to end. And then finally paulfy
Speaker 1: you know, says cut and he was like, Jenna, that
Speaker 1: was that was brilliant. Can you do it again? But
Speaker 1: just a little faster because it had been like five minutes.
Speaker 1: He was like, we just need to tighten it up
Speaker 1: a little because they wanted him to actually work ahead
Speaker 1: and they had one camera. There was only one shot
Speaker 1: that they couldn't edit. Is so great. I was like,
Speaker 1: just tighten it up a little, but sweetie, great job.
Speaker 1: I guess he could tell. I was like sobbing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: In thinking back, honestly, when he Steve leaving to me
Speaker 1: was almost more emotional than the show ending. Well, the
Speaker 1: thing is is that it wasn't just the character of
Speaker 1: Michael that we were losing. We were losing the captain
Speaker 1: of our ship, Steve Carrell. And I don't think that
Speaker 1: I can say enough how important him as our leader was,
Speaker 1: because just the kind of man he is, his work, ethic,
Speaker 1: his kindness, his generosity, there was no ego, and to
Speaker 1: be led with that, along with Greg's heart, it was
Speaker 1: very frightening to me that we were losing him. He
Speaker 1: was our compass that pointed us north and us all
Speaker 1: in line, and I really worried what's it gonna be
Speaker 1: like on set without him. We just all agreed he
Speaker 1: was the most important person on set, and we always
Speaker 1: wanted the day to be easy for him. He had
Speaker 1: the most lines, he had the most work, he had
Speaker 1: to drive the show, and we all just collectively were
Speaker 1: there to support him. And he was so generous. I
Speaker 1: mean I remember, I remember directors would come in who
Speaker 1: were new and they wouldn't be able to find Steve,
Speaker 1: but he'd just be sitting on the couch. By reception,
Speaker 1: We'll be like, oh, he's right there. Because he was
Speaker 1: so he wasn't like and I'm here, kind of guy.
Speaker 1: You know, he was just and I and I say
Speaker 1: this because after working on the Office, I've worked on
Speaker 1: many projects where this is not the case, and I
Speaker 1: see how that infects a group of people when there
Speaker 1: is someone who is leading the ship, who is insecure
Speaker 1: and needs a constant an ego boost, And it makes
Speaker 1: me even more grateful for how Steve was and how
Speaker 1: he is still. I also remember Will Ferrell coming in
Speaker 1: and guesting with us, and then I've done movies with
Speaker 1: Will Ferrell and he's the same way. And I always thought, wow,
Speaker 1: they really have a competition for like greatest person to
Speaker 1: work for work with Steve and Will just like nicest
Speaker 1: man in Hollywood. But um so, my biggest fear was
Speaker 1: even just what is the onset vibe going to be
Speaker 1: like without Steve? Not to mention what stories are we
Speaker 1: going to tell? Who are we without this leader? And
Speaker 1: I'll say it here and this is the only time
Speaker 1: I've ever really publicly said this, but it's always disappointed
Speaker 1: me that we didn't trust in our core office group
Speaker 1: enough to continue the show without bringing in what I
Speaker 1: think we thought we needed, which were these big guest
Speaker 1: actors to fill steve shoes. And I always felt like
Speaker 1: fear drove some decisions two that I does that make sense?
Speaker 1: It does make sense. Yeah, I always wondered just what
Speaker 1: would that season have been like, like what we then
Speaker 1: got with season nine, where we said, no, we're enough,
Speaker 1: the bench is deep enough, the talent is there. We
Speaker 1: can keep the ship afloat with what we have. Right.
Speaker 1: I don't know how you feel about that season eight. No,
Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying. I think that there was
Speaker 1: fear and what would happen if we didn't have someone
Speaker 1: else helming? Because being the boss changes the character. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so Dwight as the boss is not Dwight, that's right.
Speaker 1: Dwight is the character who wants to be the boss,
Speaker 1: who's always angling to be the boss, but who had
Speaker 1: does not actually have the authority. So if you make
Speaker 1: him the boss, then who is that guy? So it
Speaker 1: does make sense that they felt like they're needed to
Speaker 1: be and that was the question who should be the boss?
Speaker 1: This was the conversation you should be the boss? I
Speaker 1: mean I remember being up in the writer's room and
Speaker 1: people ask me who I thought should be the boss,
Speaker 1: and I was like, guys, I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: They were still trying to get like anybody's opinion, Like,
Speaker 1: does anyone have a perspective on this? Well? And I
Speaker 1: think as a character it was Jim. I mean I
Speaker 1: think Jim was the most I mean he was lazy,
Speaker 1: he was the most well suited technical level should be
Speaker 1: promoted to that job. Correct, Yes, in terms of his
Speaker 1: interaction with people, his ability to lead and sort of
Speaker 1: inspire people. But I think then that messes up storylines
Speaker 1: in a way, that for sure. So I guess you
Speaker 1: know when you when when we get back to this,
Speaker 1: it is like, okay, well we need some other force
Speaker 1: of nature to come in and be the boss of
Speaker 1: these people so that they can stay being them. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know that was that was tricky, but we
Speaker 1: made it through and we got some great episodes that season,
Speaker 1: and then we went into season nine where we sort
Speaker 1: of just didn't have a boss for a while. Remember
Speaker 1: Andy was our boss, but then he got lost on
Speaker 1: the boat and then we just sort of we were like, oh,
Speaker 1: here's an answer, it's an empty office. There's no regional
Speaker 1: manager anymore. Um, what did you think about bringing the
Speaker 1: sound man breaking the fourth while and bringing Brian onto
Speaker 1: the show? Was there a conference. There was a major conference,
Speaker 1: many conferences. So for season nine, John and I were producers.
Speaker 1: We were given those titles because we were brought in
Speaker 1: to really discuss the Jim Pam arc of the final season,
Speaker 1: and so we spent a lot of time up in
Speaker 1: the writer's room talking about all the beats of that
Speaker 1: story and what it would be. I did many on
Speaker 1: camera auditions with various brian's to be the boom operator,
Speaker 1: and then many discussions about who exactly it should be.
Speaker 1: There was this one actor who was just phenomenal, who
Speaker 1: just looked so much like John Krasinski that we had
Speaker 1: a whole discussion about whether or not he should look
Speaker 1: too much like John Krasinski, if that would feel like Pam,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, and like all this stuff,
Speaker 1: and so anyway, I liked that storyline. I thought it
Speaker 1: was really interesting because another part of season nine was
Speaker 1: that we were going to release the documentary that you
Speaker 1: were going to see what how it affects these people's
Speaker 1: lives for them to see themselves in a documentary, And
Speaker 1: I think that's really great closure for the show as well.
Speaker 1: Perfect I think it was an underrated ending of the show.
Speaker 1: I felt like Greg very clearly had a story that
Speaker 1: he wanted to tell. Yeah, And I think that when
Speaker 1: you're live that you're anticipate and there's almost nothing that
Speaker 1: can meet your expectations. But I think if you go
Speaker 1: back and you watch it, you see just the brilliance
Speaker 1: of how he tied it all up truly. Um, when
Speaker 1: did you find out that Steve was coming back for
Speaker 1: the finale? Did you know early on? I feel like
Speaker 1: I almost always knew, because John and I had been
Speaker 1: up in the writer's room talking about the finale and
Speaker 1: we were sworn secrecy. So I feel like I knew
Speaker 1: for a pretty long time, and I knew that there
Speaker 1: was a lot of trickery going on that he was
Speaker 1: not written into the final script. At the final table read,
Speaker 1: there was a scene between Dwight and Steve, but it
Speaker 1: was written between White and Creed, and Creed read the
Speaker 1: lines at the final table read. And that was because
Speaker 1: they did not want anyone at the network to know
Speaker 1: that Steve was coming back. It was huge secret. They
Speaker 1: didn't want NBCPR to like, yeah, please it and and
Speaker 1: to ruin the surprise of Steve being in the finale. UM,
Speaker 1: what's your memory from that? Were do you more laughy
Speaker 1: or cry like in the table reads? Oh? I think
Speaker 1: I cried a little bit every single day. I was
Speaker 1: a crier at the table read. I was crying. That
Speaker 1: was really emotional. That last table read. Chris Workman, our
Speaker 1: camera operator assistant, took a photo of that last table
Speaker 1: read that Angela has blown up in her house on
Speaker 1: her wall. That is fantastic of that last moment right
Speaker 1: after we said the last line. And then I remember
Speaker 1: that Pam has the last line of the show, and
Speaker 1: they had originally scheduled it so that that would be
Speaker 1: the very last thing we shoot. And I think it
Speaker 1: was John or some other people said, oh, man, well,
Speaker 1: we don't all want to be wrapped. And then Jenna
Speaker 1: has this talking head and and Greg said something like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, we got to have the last scene
Speaker 1: be with everybody. And after I finished my talking head,
Speaker 1: we shot the b roll of me taking the picture
Speaker 1: off the wall and all of us walking out the door.
Speaker 1: And we did it, I don't know how many times,
Speaker 1: five or six, but we would take the thing off
Speaker 1: the wall and all walk out and then we would
Speaker 1: all stand off camera by the elevator, all of us,
Speaker 1: many of us crammed by this elevator, and there would
Speaker 1: be this moment where we would wait to see if
Speaker 1: they were going to say cut going again or cut
Speaker 1: that's a wrap. And I'm getting choked up just thinking
Speaker 1: about that because those seconds of waiting and every time
Speaker 1: I just wanted them to say cut going again, because
Speaker 1: I knew when they said that's a wrap, that that
Speaker 1: was a wrap up. That was it. I'd never shoot
Speaker 1: the office again. And when they said that's a wrap,
Speaker 1: I just burst into tears and started hugging the closest
Speaker 1: people that I could find. And and it was it
Speaker 1: was really, it was just really really crazy and emotional. Yeah,
Speaker 1: will you play that. I thought it was weird when
Speaker 1: you picked us to make a documentary, But all in all,
Speaker 1: I think an ordinary paper company like dunder Mifflin was
Speaker 1: a great subject for a documentary. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: beauty and ordinary things, Isn't that kind of the point
Speaker 1: to me? That's that's what Gregg thinks it was about
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of beauty and ordinary things. What
Speaker 1: do you think it was about, Oh, Greg Daniels, I
Speaker 1: think that's what it was about. Yeah, I do. I also, um,
Speaker 1: I always thought selfishly because it was my job to
Speaker 1: view the show through my character. It's not lost on
Speaker 1: me that when Pam was ready to break free of
Speaker 1: dunder Mifflin, the show ended. So I always kind of
Speaker 1: thought it was the journey of a girl becoming a woman,
Speaker 1: finding herself going out into the world. When we meet her,
Speaker 1: she's trapped behind this desk, and she sort of slowly
Speaker 1: moves to sales and then finds the man she loves
Speaker 1: and starts this family. And then when she's really ready,
Speaker 1: she really fights against leaving. And then when she's ready
Speaker 1: to go, it's all over because the documentary doesn't stop
Speaker 1: when Michael leaves, so it's not really a documentary about
Speaker 1: Michael Scott. You know, they decided to stop making the
Speaker 1: documentary when Pam leaves. That's so interesting. Do you think
Speaker 1: The Office could be made today? No, I don't think
Speaker 1: it could. Well, I don't know if it could be
Speaker 1: made today. It's a good question. Well, first of all,
Speaker 1: something I want to point out our question I want
Speaker 1: to ask you is people always ask us if we're
Speaker 1: all really friends in real life, and I don't even
Speaker 1: think saying that we're friends in real life accurately communicates
Speaker 1: how deeply I feel for you and everybody. It's a
Speaker 1: like a love of family, Like I can't explain it.
Speaker 1: Do you think if we've made this show in the
Speaker 1: age of smartphones and whatnot, that we would be as
Speaker 1: deeply connected? Like? Don't you think? Inc like the circumstances
Speaker 1: of us being trapped on that set for the first
Speaker 1: season with no working computers, no phones, no internet, nothing,
Speaker 1: just a troop of actors and artists trapped in a
Speaker 1: room for twelve hours a day playing. We never absorbed
Speaker 1: ourselves and our phones or emails or other work or anything.
Speaker 1: And I think that that lent itself to part of
Speaker 1: the magic. And I just wonder if if you try
Speaker 1: to put us all in a room today, I don't know,
Speaker 1: when we just have our phones and our desks. I
Speaker 1: think that maybe I don't know, Maybe I think that
Speaker 1: we for sure. What I think is we were a
Speaker 1: collective group of people with differing backgrounds and experiences and training.
Speaker 1: It was like we were an old time theater troupe,
Speaker 1: yes stuck together. And we weren't all famous. No, we
Speaker 1: came from a place of just wanting to do good work. Well.
Speaker 1: When Lee and I got married, I had invited a
Speaker 1: girlfriend of mine that I'd gone to high school with
Speaker 1: from St. Louis, and she was so excited to come
Speaker 1: to the wedding and she said, if they're going to
Speaker 1: be famous people there, you know? And I said, no,
Speaker 1: not really, We're not really friends with a lot of
Speaker 1: famous people, you know. And then she's like, well, are
Speaker 1: the cast members from the office going to be there?
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, there'll be there, and she
Speaker 1: was like, well they're famous, and I'm like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right. I forgot. But even now today, I don't
Speaker 1: think of us that way. I still always think of
Speaker 1: us as the people in the room before anyone cared
Speaker 1: or anyone knew who we were, and so being on
Speaker 1: that journey together as well, I think really bonded us.
Speaker 1: But I don't know if we could make the show today.
Speaker 1: It's it's really hard to say. It was such a
Speaker 1: moment in time. Can you make a show today with
Speaker 1: total unknown? I don't know, Silicon Valley kind of there's
Speaker 1: other shows. Well, let me ask why do you think
Speaker 1: the show is more popular now than it was when
Speaker 1: we was on. My answer is very simple. The show
Speaker 1: is excellent. It's excellent. It is absolutely brilliantly executed, and
Speaker 1: it holds up because it's just that good. Really, But
Speaker 1: you know it's funny. I started this podcast with Angela
Speaker 1: where we watch an episode of the Office. We started
Speaker 1: from the beginning. We break it down. This was not
Speaker 1: my this is not a plug moment. We were about
Speaker 1: to go there in a minute, but anyway, go ahead. Now.
Speaker 1: What I was going to say is Angela and I
Speaker 1: are doing this podcast and we have to watch an
Speaker 1: episode of the Office and then we discuss it. So
Speaker 1: I've been watching the show from the very beginning. Had
Speaker 1: you watched the show since they aired, you had not.
Speaker 1: I had seen a few here and there. I had
Speaker 1: seen the dinner party I had. I had been in
Speaker 1: a trailer on a job and I had a teeny
Speaker 1: tiny television mounted to the wall of my trailer. Was
Speaker 1: so small. She'm not joking right now. She just held
Speaker 1: up her fingers and showed three inches. I don't think
Speaker 1: the now, it's more like five inches. It was smaller
Speaker 1: than a laptop screen. It was very tiny, and it's
Speaker 1: so I was so that's what she said. I was
Speaker 1: so tickled by it that I took a picture and
Speaker 1: I sent it to Steve and John and Ed and
Speaker 1: Angela and all of us who had been in that
Speaker 1: scene where we were laughing so hard at Michael's tiny
Speaker 1: flat screen TV. And then that made me want to
Speaker 1: watch that episode. So then I went and watched the
Speaker 1: dinner Party episode, and then a few examples of things
Speaker 1: like that where you're flipping through and you an episode
Speaker 1: comes on or something like that. But no, I have
Speaker 1: not seen most of these episodes since they aired, so
Speaker 1: it's been really cool for me. And I have to say,
Speaker 1: I really get why people are so excited about the show. Like,
Speaker 1: as I watch it again, I'm really watching it almost
Speaker 1: as a fan, and it's weird that I'm on it
Speaker 1: in some ways. When I'm watching myself, I've always thought
Speaker 1: it was real. I is that a fact? I don't know.
Speaker 1: But before I started doing that, I was on Greg
Speaker 1: to do a reunion special or revived the office in
Speaker 1: some way, selfishly because I just want to work with
Speaker 1: all you all again, and because I know Steve has
Speaker 1: a really good idea, and I thought, let's get Steve's
Speaker 1: idea going. Come on, Greg, come on, Greg, you gotta
Speaker 1: do it. Well, now that I've been rewatching the show,
Speaker 1: I wrote Greg and email recently and I said, Greg, Um,
Speaker 1: I don't think you should reopen the show. It's it
Speaker 1: is so perfect just as it is. Like, I don't
Speaker 1: think we should now. I was such a champion for
Speaker 1: doing it for so long, and now I'm realizing maybe
Speaker 1: it's exactly perfect just as it is, and you don't
Speaker 1: want to have this weird extra seven years later episode
Speaker 1: that we made. Um, I don't know. Well, he do have.
Speaker 1: Here's the beauty is I have the ability to edit
Speaker 1: out whatever I say right now. I have no interest
Speaker 1: in it in doing it in a reunion episode. But
Speaker 1: have you heard Steve's idea. It's a great idea. It
Speaker 1: has a good idea. But if we did it in Scranton, Brian,
Speaker 1: what if that's the thing that we come back for,
Speaker 1: is we shoot an episode finally in Scranton. Steve's idea?
Speaker 1: All right, Well, I'm tempting you. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: I think the show is just perfect as it is.
Speaker 1: Although we do have an unproduced episode pet Day. There's
Speaker 1: one episode of the office called pet Day. Well it
Speaker 1: wasn't shot that we never shot. That's right, I have
Speaker 1: the script. I have let you do. In fact, I
Speaker 1: signed scripts, obviously to give away to charity. I have
Speaker 1: a gigantic box of scripts that because we would get
Speaker 1: multiple per week. It was not great for the environment,
Speaker 1: but we would get more, and they're in my garage
Speaker 1: and boxes. And I reached in and grabbed one and
Speaker 1: it was pet Day pet Day? And I thought, what
Speaker 1: if I had signed that? And I mean, thank goodness,
Speaker 1: I looked at what the title was, because that could
Speaker 1: have been true. I could have gotten in trouble for that. Well.
Speaker 1: I said to Greg, what if we do a special
Speaker 1: where we just do a staged reading of pet Day
Speaker 1: and we all come together and we read pet Day.
Speaker 1: Wasn't there a reason we didn't do pet Day? Animal cruelty?
Speaker 1: I believe it was the reason we didn't do pet
Speaker 1: Day because there's some awful bird death in it or
Speaker 1: something I can't remember death and a porcupine in Dwight's
Speaker 1: desk we did, and Angela throws a cat and a
Speaker 1: cat and one gets frozen. And no, there's Greg must
Speaker 1: not like animals. Um, is there anything else anything else
Speaker 1: that you want covered that you feel like we didn't?
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously there's so much I know, I know,
Speaker 1: I don't know you did. You were very good. I
Speaker 1: can't think of anything, really, I think something that's really
Speaker 1: interesting to talk about two, because you talk about how
Speaker 1: there were like the theater people and the comedians, and
Speaker 1: then there were the improv people, but there were also
Speaker 1: all of these ways that we were weirdly connected like that.
Speaker 1: Phillis and I both grew up in St. Louis, as
Speaker 1: did Ken kuoppas he grew up in Belleville, Illinois, which
Speaker 1: is basically St. Louis. And then also our a d
Speaker 1: rusty mom mood grew up in St. Louis. So there
Speaker 1: were four of us St Louis's. Then there were a
Speaker 1: bunch of those Boston guys. You've got John and Steve
Speaker 1: and b J and Mike Scher. Then the fact that
Speaker 1: like b J and John went to the same high
Speaker 1: school and high school, you and Ed went to the
Speaker 1: same high school. And Angela and Oscar were in an
Speaker 1: improv group together, and she walked on set and was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, Oscar, you got cast in this. It
Speaker 1: was a complete shock to her. She'd done improv with Kate.
Speaker 1: So there were these ways where we'd all been kind
Speaker 1: of circling each other in this weird way, and then
Speaker 1: all finally came together. There were so many coincidences in
Speaker 1: how we were connected to Yes. I remember shooting a
Speaker 1: scene for webisodes and was in the annex camera on me.
Speaker 1: I was shooting a talking head and suddenly I saw
Speaker 1: Ed Helms walking behind the I was like, Ed, what
Speaker 1: what are you? And he was there to meet with
Speaker 1: Greg and about joining the show. This is between season
Speaker 1: two and three. Yeah, it's crazy. Um, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: I love you, Brian. I appreciate you coming. I hope
Speaker 1: this has been some fun. I could talk for hours
Speaker 1: about our show. I love that you're doing this because
Speaker 1: I want to hear what everybody says. Yeah, well there
Speaker 1: you go. I love you, I love you. Thank you.
Speaker 1: That is a rap on Jenna Fisher here at the
Speaker 1: office deep dive Jenna, thank you so much for sharing
Speaker 1: your time with us. I mean, look, I didn't want
Speaker 1: to say this to your face, but I think that
Speaker 1: we all know Kevin was the real emotional core of
Speaker 1: the office. I mean, you can keep thinking Pam, but
Speaker 1: I say it's keV Dog. But you were so great here.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna let you have it. I'll even forgive the
Speaker 1: fact that you're a Cardinals fan. Go Dodgers listeners. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us, even all your Cardinals fans,
Speaker 1: and get ready because next week. Oh it's the big one, folks,
Speaker 1: It's the Big ConA, the big Cheese, the big guy upstairs,
Speaker 1: Steve Correl. Have a great week. The Office. Deep Dive
Speaker 1: is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside
Speaker 1: our executive producer, Langlee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer,
Speaker 1: our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant edit
Speaker 1: is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is
Speaker 1: Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
Speaker 1: my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed
Speaker 1: by Seth Olandsky