Speaker 1: Lindsey, It's so good to see you. So good to
Speaker 1: see you too. It's been a little while and I'm
Speaker 1: so excited to just be able to talk with you
Speaker 1: a bit today. How are you feeling good.
Speaker 2: I'm really looking forward to this. I feel like it's
Speaker 2: been forever since we've gotten to talk.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it is kind of wild. It's been like
Speaker 1: over a year and a half since our first interview,
Speaker 1: and now here we are sort of at the end
Speaker 1: of it all, which is amazing. From Rocco Punch and
Speaker 1: iHeart podcasts, this is the Turning River road. I'm Alan
Speaker 1: Lance Lesser. So what's it been like to hear your
Speaker 1: story in full now out in the world.
Speaker 2: I have been telling people it's such a different experience
Speaker 2: hearing it being told. Even though I'm the one telling it,
Speaker 2: and even though I lived it and I've told the
Speaker 2: story so many times, it's a different experience hearing it.
Speaker 2: There's been moments when I've been really sad for that girl.
Speaker 2: There's moments when I'm so proud of her for her
Speaker 2: courage and bravery. One thing that stood out for me
Speaker 2: was the whiplash, you know, the back and forth. Am
Speaker 2: I loved am I not loved. Am I wanted? Am
Speaker 2: I hated? Am I in God's graces? Am I not
Speaker 2: in his graces? I think was so apparent to me
Speaker 2: at times I was, Oh, my gosh, I cannot believe
Speaker 2: that I actually did live through all of that. It's
Speaker 2: been a crazy experience listening to it being told, and
Speaker 2: I think in chronological order, because you know, I'll tell
Speaker 2: bits of my story here and there, and depending on
Speaker 2: the audience, that depends on what I share. So I
Speaker 2: think hearing it from episode one all the way through
Speaker 2: has just been it's been good. It's hasn't been triggering
Speaker 2: at all, which is great. I thought, you know, maybe
Speaker 2: there would be parts where it would be and I've
Speaker 2: definitely cried at different parts and have experienced lots of emotions,
Speaker 2: but nothing to that, you know, set me back or anything,
Speaker 2: which has been great.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, has it affected how you see everything
Speaker 1: that happened? Looking back?
Speaker 2: I think it has brought up a couple of things.
Speaker 2: So I'm in therapy right now, which has been wonderful,
Speaker 2: and it's been amazing. And one thing that I've kind
Speaker 2: of realized, and I think I was almost embarrassed to
Speaker 2: even think it or ashamed to think it. But before
Speaker 2: the first and second episode came out, I wanted to
Speaker 2: make a post on social media, and I wanted to
Speaker 2: do a little collage. Some of it was the rings
Speaker 2: and the veil and the saltish an excerpt for my
Speaker 2: journal that I had written from that time, the screenshot
Speaker 2: of Jess and I at the hearing, and then of
Speaker 2: smattering of the notes Victor had written me. Wasn't all
Speaker 2: of them? Just like some of them smattered around and
Speaker 2: I looked at them and I started crying, and not
Speaker 2: at all out of love for him, you know, like
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, I miss him or anything like that.
Speaker 2: It was more of was any of it real? Did
Speaker 2: he ever really truly care about me? Because they're and
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about anything intimate. It was, you know,
Speaker 2: in those moments when maybe he gave me a song
Speaker 2: to put to music, or he gave me a Bible
Speaker 2: verse to research because he knew I liked doing that stuff.
Speaker 2: But the times when he thought I was doing well
Speaker 2: and showed me that he was appreciating the work I
Speaker 2: was putting in, I was like, oh, what are these
Speaker 2: tears like? And I kind of felt ashamed and embarrassed
Speaker 2: to even I was like, why am I thinking having
Speaker 2: these like thoughts? And I decided to bring it up
Speaker 2: in therapy and told her all this stuff and she
Speaker 2: put down her pad and pen and she was like, lindsay,
Speaker 2: everything you're saying is totally normal. And we started talking
Speaker 2: about Stockholm syndrome and how, especially kids who were abused
Speaker 2: for such an early age, they kind of developed this
Speaker 2: oh but they really did, you know, like care for
Speaker 2: me and love me. And I think it's been so
Speaker 2: good to talk about it because I've never talked about
Speaker 2: that part before. I'm definitely I'm going to keep exploring
Speaker 2: it in therapy, and I think it's really good because
Speaker 2: I'm sure so many people deal with Stockholm syndrome and
Speaker 2: could feel ashamed or embarrassed or guilty of why they're
Speaker 2: having those thoughts, and so I think it's a really
Speaker 2: great thing to talk about. So that's one thing that
Speaker 2: after like seeing those notes from him and listening that
Speaker 2: we're diving into therapy, that's been really great.
Speaker 1: In bringing up Stockholm syndrome or kind of feeling these
Speaker 1: positive emotions towards someone that has you know, abused you.
Speaker 1: What is your interpretation of what was happening there and
Speaker 1: your reaction and what that means for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, well, we've kind of like just gotten
Speaker 2: into it. But Victor, at a very young age, she
Speaker 2: became everything to me, you know, he took everything away,
Speaker 2: became in a sense, my mother, my father, my teacher,
Speaker 2: my eventually lover, my apostle in my life, the person
Speaker 2: who I was supposed to look to for guidance as
Speaker 2: far as the Bible and heaven and everything. And so
Speaker 2: I already, you know, had gotten to the point where
Speaker 2: I knew and believed, truly believed it wasn't my fault.
Speaker 2: But I think it's just even having those hints of
Speaker 2: like looking at his handwriting, and I think it just
Speaker 2: reaffirms for me, you know, and talking with my therapist,
Speaker 2: that none of it was my fault. You know, that
Speaker 2: he came in and did all these things, and my
Speaker 2: reactions to it now even if it is like wondering, oh,
Speaker 2: like was any of it real at any point that
Speaker 2: because he did all those things, that is a normal
Speaker 2: reaction to it. I don't know if that makes sense
Speaker 2: at all. We're like definitely still in the beginning stages
Speaker 2: of working through this part.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and actually that's a good point too, and that
Speaker 1: so often my understanding is that as you process trauma,
Speaker 1: it might like change over time and how you feel
Speaker 1: about it changes, and there might be you know, you're
Speaker 1: still kind of processing what happened, even though you've processed
Speaker 1: it so much. You know, you're not at a clear
Speaker 1: final conclusion or something. I mean, will anyone ever be right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, constantly growing and evolving.
Speaker 1: But know that makes sense that your interpretation is like, listen,
Speaker 1: whatever I'm thinking, even if I'm trying to seek his
Speaker 1: approval still or wondering how he felt about me, Like
Speaker 1: that's not on me, like you were conditioned exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's helped me see that in other
Speaker 2: and again not like intimate relationships with boy friends or anything,
Speaker 2: but maybe certain family members who had a sense of,
Speaker 2: you know, had this authority to them at times I was,
Speaker 2: you know, had this mentality of oh, I want to
Speaker 2: make them, I want to do well, whether it was
Speaker 2: completing a task or the way I thought about something,
Speaker 2: or you know, agreeing with them on a certain subject
Speaker 2: and explaining myself on why. It's helped me see those
Speaker 2: things in my life and be like oh wow, like
Speaker 2: I think I reacted that way because of what happened,
Speaker 2: you know, and because of being conditioning to think that way.
Speaker 2: So it's been really really good.
Speaker 1: Have you had reactions from other people in your life?
Speaker 1: From some of what I've heard, it seems like a
Speaker 1: lot of people have heard your story and support you,
Speaker 1: and like I've heard of people really, you know, having
Speaker 1: your back, and based on the feedback we've gotten, people
Speaker 1: think you're amazing, And I'm just curious if you've gotten
Speaker 1: some of that feedback directly yourself or what kinds of
Speaker 1: reactions you've gotten.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been pretty much all positive, so amazing, and
Speaker 2: I wasn't sure when it would come out. In my mind,
Speaker 2: I thought, oh, there's going to be some negative people
Speaker 2: and just bracing for that. But it's been for the majority,
Speaker 2: so wonderful people, I mean random strangers saying amazing things,
Speaker 2: encouraging words. I even had a customer, a client that
Speaker 2: I was working with. He emailed me, He's like, I
Speaker 2: don't know if this is a weird way to say this.
Speaker 2: He was very very gracious with what he wrote and
Speaker 2: said that he had been listening to my podcast and
Speaker 2: just really amazing things. And I thought that was really nice.
Speaker 2: You know, people here and reaching out and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like in your real life. Yeah, people who might
Speaker 1: have never known at everything you've been through.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how'd that feel? Oh it felt great. I'm I
Speaker 2: was just like, oh my goodness, you know, not weird
Speaker 2: at all. Thank you so much, so much for saying
Speaker 2: something and for listening. I'm just really glad it's getting
Speaker 2: out there. Yeah. I've had a lot of positive feedback
Speaker 2: from family members. A number of family members I haven't
Speaker 2: heard from, which was kind of surprising. I thought maybe
Speaker 2: I would hear from more, but hopefully they're listening. I
Speaker 2: did reach out to one of my sisters before the
Speaker 2: podcast aired, and I kind of realized that she had
Speaker 2: never heard my story from me telling it. It was
Speaker 2: probably what the media had told her, what the cult
Speaker 2: at the time was telling her. So I just reached
Speaker 2: out to her let her know it would be coming
Speaker 2: out and that i'd appreciate it if she would take
Speaker 2: the time to listen and afterwards, if she would like
Speaker 2: to talk, I'd be open to that. Never heard from her.
Speaker 2: That was back in June, so I don't know if
Speaker 2: she's listened or not, but I'm definitely hoping that if
Speaker 2: people who did support Victor or gave excuses for what
Speaker 2: happened if they listened to it, that their ears are open,
Speaker 2: you know, because somebody can listen to something and it
Speaker 2: just you know, go right over their head or something,
Speaker 2: that their hearts are really open to hearing what happened.
Speaker 1: Have you heard from anyone in the group or from
Speaker 1: River Road Fellowship.
Speaker 2: I did hear from one of the Maiden's brother and
Speaker 2: sister separately. Yeah, that was really really nice, just them
Speaker 2: sending a lot of encouragement. And one of them said
Speaker 2: he was like, I think this is one of the
Speaker 2: best things I've ever heard. And your honesty and how
Speaker 2: you tackle everything is just amazing. And I know when
Speaker 2: we talked in the beginning, I said, I want people
Speaker 2: to feel like they're just sitting with me and we're
Speaker 2: having a conversation. And that's a lot of the feedback
Speaker 2: I've gotten, how compelling, how genuine, how truthful, how calm
Speaker 2: I sound, which is wonderful because I wanted people just
Speaker 2: to get to know me, even when we are talking
Speaker 2: about really hard things. And you know, the last that
Speaker 2: you leave in I've left along with myself, you know,
Speaker 2: telling the story. It's just Yeah, that's been good. So
Speaker 2: hearing from those two was great. Somebody commented on one
Speaker 2: of my posts on Facebook, but that's about it. I think.
Speaker 2: I wonder, you know, if they're listening, and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, any memories that we haven't delved into, that you
Speaker 1: were reminded of or that have more recently come to
Speaker 1: mind or kind of stand out to you.
Speaker 2: Hearing Reese's voice on the podcast brought back a lot
Speaker 2: of memories from that time.
Speaker 1: Reese the prosecutor on the case Rees Fredrickson.
Speaker 2: I remember just and I preparing to meet him for
Speaker 2: the first time, and of course being nervous because it
Speaker 2: had been two years of almost nothing, you know, like
Speaker 2: nothing going anywhere, and so just wondering if almost that
Speaker 2: maybe the way he was thinking of us, you know,
Speaker 2: like is he the real deal? He really gonna take
Speaker 2: on this case and fight for us. And so hearing
Speaker 2: him say that he knew within five seconds, I mean,
Speaker 2: I was like, what, that's crazy, because we knew or
Speaker 2: I'll speak for myself, but I know, I know Jess
Speaker 2: was like in it with us, knew right away that
Speaker 2: he was the one to represent us.
Speaker 1: And why do you have that feeling he just he seemed.
Speaker 2: Very genuine, very compassionate, and just convinced that he was
Speaker 2: going to find Victor and put him in jail for us,
Speaker 2: that he just got the sense that he wouldn't stop
Speaker 2: fighting until justice took place.
Speaker 1: Any other things like that that kind of came up
Speaker 1: for you.
Speaker 2: I mean, there were things that made me think back
Speaker 2: on those times, like hearing the maiden's voices on the calls,
Speaker 2: hearing my mom's voice on the call, that would bring
Speaker 2: me back to those moments. I think hearing the Maidens
Speaker 2: especially that was hard because not because of them not
Speaker 2: supporting us, but again of just hearing their voices and
Speaker 2: remembering some of the good times and things and how
Speaker 2: things are so different now and wondering if they're listening
Speaker 2: to the podcast and what their opinion is of it.
Speaker 2: That was a little bit hard to hear them.
Speaker 1: It does seem like a reaction. You've said numerous times
Speaker 1: is what's painful is also the loss of your relationship
Speaker 1: with the other Maidens and like missing aspects of that life.
Speaker 1: But because of what happened, a lot of that has
Speaker 1: been sort of destroyed, and that that's part of the
Speaker 1: pain you now feel. Yeah, it's just an example of
Speaker 1: how these things can come up in a variety of ways,
Speaker 1: in ways that maybe an outsider might not think of initially.
Speaker 2: Right, you know, because they were my family for all
Speaker 2: those years, the only ones I really had. So yeah,
Speaker 2: definitely there's still a hole there that probably will never
Speaker 2: be filled. I mean, how do you feel a loss
Speaker 2: like that, losing nine of your best friends that you've
Speaker 2: grown up with since you were a kid. Hearing Jessa's episode,
Speaker 2: Oh that was that was tough.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I love how she was conveyed so beautifully though, you know,
Speaker 2: I think people really got the hopefully the sense of
Speaker 2: who she was and how beautiful and bright and her
Speaker 2: free spirit. But yeah, that did. Like when I heard
Speaker 2: her passing, that just brought back so many memories and
Speaker 2: like just that, you know, it was COVID, so I
Speaker 2: couldn't go see go to the funeral, and yeah, that
Speaker 2: was really hard. It's funny because a Facebook memory popped
Speaker 2: up today from five years ago. I had posted a
Speaker 2: picture of Jess and I and just talking about how
Speaker 2: much I missed her, and I was like, I sometimes
Speaker 2: find myself talking to you, and I said something like
Speaker 2: you weren't supposed to leave this early, but you were
Speaker 2: always one step ahead of me, you know, since she
Speaker 2: had left the cult before I did. That was a
Speaker 2: tough one to hear. But also I really beautifully done.
Speaker 1: I thought, Yeah, what emotions came out for you?
Speaker 2: Sadness, happiness, like just a lot of memories. I don't
Speaker 2: know what I think of Jess and I now. I
Speaker 2: always just picture us playing our guitars together, because it's
Speaker 2: one of those happy, safe moments, you know, on the
Speaker 2: deck of the chapel with the wind blowing. And I
Speaker 2: think almost every time I see someone playing a guitar
Speaker 2: guitars in somebody's house, it brings me back to Jess
Speaker 2: and I, and not in a painful way, in a
Speaker 2: almost like a happy, longing type way. I visited a
Speaker 2: friend's house a couple weekends ago, him and his wife.
Speaker 2: He had a couple of guitars there and I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: like one was a Martin. I said, oh, this is
Speaker 2: a really good and I used to have my dad's.
Speaker 2: It's probably forty some years old by now, maybe, And
Speaker 2: he handed one of the guitars to me. I started playing,
Speaker 2: and he was playing, and then later on he was
Speaker 2: at the piano and they had like a whole karaoke setup.
Speaker 2: So we just started singing and jamming out and I
Speaker 2: have not done that since the Maidens, and I almost
Speaker 2: started crying, but I was like, come on, Lindsay, don't
Speaker 2: be weird, like just but yeah, it just kind of
Speaker 2: and the wife was in the kitchen putting dishes away,
Speaker 2: and it just brought me back to being in the
Speaker 2: kitchen at the farmhouse that made in love, some of
Speaker 2: the maidens cleaning up from dinner, some of us playing
Speaker 2: music and singing together, and it wasn't like those memories
Speaker 2: used to be really painful. But my tears weren't from pain.
Speaker 2: It was just from thankfulness, I think, for the time
Speaker 2: we did have together, even though it was so terrible
Speaker 2: a situation, we were in thankfulness that we had those
Speaker 2: sweet moments, you know, of just being ourselves and playing
Speaker 2: our instruments and having a moment of serenity in the
Speaker 2: midst of the chaos that was our lives. I listened
Speaker 2: to can I talk about Episode ten? Yeah, okay, listen
Speaker 2: to that today twice. I was really proud of myself,
Speaker 2: I think because I, you know, when I was talking
Speaker 2: about family members listening to it, and the people have
Speaker 2: supported my parents and the excuses I sounded very brave
Speaker 2: and bold. I was like, go me, And I'm glad
Speaker 2: that that came through on there, because you should feel
Speaker 2: empowered as a survivor, you know. And the letter to Peggy,
Speaker 2: my mother, that was tough to hear, definitely brought tears,
Speaker 2: especially now since I am a mom. I mean, every
Speaker 2: time I think about what I wrote there and then
Speaker 2: think about Frankie and I and just how different and
Speaker 2: wonderful our relationship is and what a contrast, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you wrote that before you were a mom
Speaker 1: talking about your you know, future kids, and now you
Speaker 1: have a kid.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think a big topic that I've seen through
Speaker 2: all of this is breaking the cycle being raised that way,
Speaker 2: condition that way. For so long, I've had people ask me, oh, well,
Speaker 2: how did you know to do that with Frankie or
Speaker 2: how did you know to handle a situation like that?
Speaker 2: And I mean, I don't know if I have a
Speaker 2: full answer for that, But what I try to do
Speaker 2: is think about the way I was raised and how
Speaker 2: I would want to be treated as a kid, and
Speaker 2: how I would want to be heard and you know,
Speaker 2: loved and valued. And it's really helped me. You know,
Speaker 2: there's certain things that I will never do because it
Speaker 2: was done to me. And I think breaking the cycle
Speaker 2: that's been like a big topic that's been on my mind,
Speaker 2: and I think it's important because so many people could
Speaker 2: go through something like this, and then you see examples
Speaker 2: of this where people will do something and people say, oh, well,
Speaker 2: look at how they were raised. Of course they did
Speaker 2: that because their parents did that and their grandparents did that,
Speaker 2: and it's so easy to just give excuses for that
Speaker 2: type of behavior like, oh, well, that's just how they
Speaker 2: were raised, so of course they're going to repeat it
Speaker 2: when it doesn't have to be that way. There's another
Speaker 2: way to break that and to live your life and
Speaker 2: raise your kids, whatever you're going to do with your life.
Speaker 2: So hearing the story and then the parts about me
Speaker 2: and Frankie and seeing how our lives are now, it's
Speaker 2: been really a parent that I've been able to do that,
Speaker 2: and I'm so thankful for that, and hopefully we'll be
Speaker 2: able to share more of that on that topic as
Speaker 2: time goes on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. As I've been thinking about your story
Speaker 1: and sort of the way that you've shared it, something
Speaker 1: that strikes me is I've heard a lot of you know,
Speaker 1: like cult documentaries and things in the world, but something
Speaker 1: that stands out about how you shared your story was
Speaker 1: the perspective of a kid. You know, you're just in it.
Speaker 1: You didn't have a say, you didn't get to decide,
Speaker 1: and you just kind of were survived and living and
Speaker 1: trying to find the joy where you could. And you
Speaker 1: did find the joy in some cases, you know, but
Speaker 1: you also faced a lot of horrible things. And seeing
Speaker 1: it from that perspective, from the beginning through the end,
Speaker 1: that struck me as I hear your story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, before this came out, I wanted to take Frankie
Speaker 2: to therapy with me, just because I thought it would
Speaker 2: be good. Like you never know. She doesn't have social
Speaker 2: media or a phone, but you just never know kids
Speaker 2: at school or what she's going to hear. I just
Speaker 2: thought it'd be good in case she had any questions.
Speaker 2: And I've never really told her in more depth other
Speaker 2: than like a concubine or my parents gave me away
Speaker 2: when it happened. So we went booked a two hour
Speaker 2: session like back to back Sweeden have time, So my
Speaker 2: therapist met with her first just to get to know where,
Speaker 2: which was wonderful. And then I went in there as well,
Speaker 2: and she had me start from the beginning to tell
Speaker 2: Frankie kind of what my childhood was like, which I've
Speaker 2: never even thought to do that. I thought it was
Speaker 2: great because it's her history too, you know, even though
Speaker 2: were grandparents did terrible things, just to know what my
Speaker 2: life was like as a kid. Then of course we
Speaker 2: got to the point where we met Victor and then
Speaker 2: us moving to Minnesota, and I was telling the story
Speaker 2: of how my mom had her siblings come through our
Speaker 2: house and say to them, oh, you know, all the
Speaker 2: pictures on the walls. If you want the frames, you know,
Speaker 2: take them. They were really nice frames. She would always
Speaker 2: it was all of us as kids. She would get
Speaker 2: our pictures done at Olind Mills every year or a
Speaker 2: couple times a year. And one of them said, oh, Peggy,
Speaker 2: don't you want the pictures? And She's like, no, I'm
Speaker 2: not taking them. And Frankie looked up and she's like,
Speaker 2: why didn't your mom love her kids? And like you
Speaker 2: were just saying, hearing from a child's perspective. I looked
Speaker 2: at my therapist and tears started falling. I just never
Speaker 2: thought of that before. You know, like I've heard the story.
Speaker 2: I've told that story, but hearing it from a ten
Speaker 2: year old's perspective, and also knowing she thought that it
Speaker 2: was such a foreign concept to her because she'll never
Speaker 2: know that kind of she'll always be loved, she'll never
Speaker 2: know that kind of feeling of not being wanted by me.
Speaker 2: That was an emotional for me moment hearing that from her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like Frankie has allowed you to even
Speaker 1: see things differently or recognize things in your past that
Speaker 1: you didn't even kind of see before because maybe you're
Speaker 1: used to it. Has Frankie heard any of this? No,
Speaker 1: have you now?
Speaker 2: And boy, she has asked so many times, Oh mommy,
Speaker 2: let me listen to fifteen minutes. It'll be fine. I
Speaker 2: can handle it. No, I can tell her. I'm like,
Speaker 2: you know some I've read this book by Corey ten Boom. Once.
Speaker 2: She was a lady who hid Jews during the Holocaust
Speaker 2: and she went to Auschwitz when she was little. She
Speaker 2: told a story she asked her dad a question, and
Speaker 2: her dad they were getting off a train and he
Speaker 2: pulled the luggage down and he said, Corey, can you
Speaker 2: lift this? And she couldn't, and he said, sometimes some
Speaker 2: knowledge is too heavy for people to carry, so let
Speaker 2: me carry it for now. So I always use that
Speaker 2: with Frankie now, just to give her like a visual.
Speaker 2: So I just tell her, let Mommy carry it for now,
Speaker 2: and when you're older and it's time, then we'll talk
Speaker 2: about it or listen to it. Yeah, but she tries.
Speaker 2: She's tried to ask.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what a beautiful visual too, or way of communicating that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, She's been so great though, I mean, we're really good.
Speaker 2: There's a like a few things that have happened. Well,
Speaker 2: she had a birthday party to go to right after
Speaker 2: school ended, and it was a pool party and like
Speaker 2: a bunch of her friends are going to be there,
Speaker 2: so she told me drop me off for a little
Speaker 2: bit and then come back to get me. So I
Speaker 2: was like, okay, we get there, and it turned out
Speaker 2: that she was one of two people who had responded
Speaker 2: that nobody else was going to be there. So she
Speaker 2: still told me, She's like, well, maybe leave for an
Speaker 2: hour and come back. So I started walking to my
Speaker 2: car and I just got this feeling that I should stay.
Speaker 2: And I was like, all right, I'll grab my water
Speaker 2: and go back in, and all of a sudden, I
Speaker 2: heard footsteps running up behind me, and I turn around
Speaker 2: and Frankie's running at me, crying, asking me to stay,
Speaker 2: please stay, I don't want to be alone, Please stay,
Speaker 2: and I'm like absolutely, I'm just grabbing my water and
Speaker 2: I'm coming in later. On the way home, we're driving
Speaker 2: and she at one point just quietly says, I'm sorry
Speaker 2: that I made you stay with me, and I you know,
Speaker 2: when you have like a moment, and it's the moment
Speaker 2: is like a second, but it's like a million things
Speaker 2: go on in your mind. And that split second, I
Speaker 2: immediately thought of my mom not being there for me,
Speaker 2: you know, just and feeling like why would she even apologize?
Speaker 2: Why would Frankie feel a need to put And I
Speaker 2: looked at her and I was like, Frankie, of course
Speaker 2: I stayed. You know, like I'm your mother. I would
Speaker 2: never want to put you in a situation where you
Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable, like I will always be there for you.
Speaker 2: You never have to apologize to me for staying or
Speaker 2: being with you. And that was it. It was just
Speaker 2: like then we went on and I again, I'm a crier.
Speaker 2: I dropped a couple tears, but just not out of sadness.
Speaker 2: For me, it was out of just thankfulness knowing that
Speaker 2: again she'll never feel that kind of abandonment or having
Speaker 2: to apologize for her parent staying with her and caring
Speaker 2: for her.
Speaker 1: It was.
Speaker 2: There's been like little moments like that. I think that
Speaker 2: since the podcast has come out, I'm able to see
Speaker 2: things even clearer, whether it's to me and Frankie or
Speaker 2: even in my life. So I think that's just been
Speaker 2: really good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like what you've been through. Although I mean
Speaker 1: it's so much and you shouldn't have had to go
Speaker 1: through it, it informs how you're actually living day to day,
Speaker 1: how you're parenting, how you're navigating life. Yeah. I feel
Speaker 1: like something you repeated many times is I just want
Speaker 1: to tell my story. I just want to get it
Speaker 1: out there in hopes that it can help other people
Speaker 1: or bring more awareness, or just so some people don't
Speaker 1: feel alone and like it's out there now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad. Somebody did reach out to me
Speaker 2: maybe a few weeks ago and said that they were
Speaker 2: also a survivor of sexual assault. And I remember when
Speaker 2: I first, like the media went public in twenty fourteen,
Speaker 2: I was getting so many messages, and at that point
Speaker 2: I hadn't had Frankie yet because she was born in
Speaker 2: summer of twenty fourteen. And then some of it I was,
Speaker 2: you know, just a new mom, probably a postpartum I
Speaker 2: don't even think I knew what that was back then,
Speaker 2: but I didn't respond to anyone just because I was
Speaker 2: so overwhelmed. But this time I knew that if anyone
Speaker 2: did reach out, I wanted to reach back out, and
Speaker 2: so I did and tried to say some words of encouragement,
Speaker 2: asking if they had a support group, if they needed
Speaker 2: any resources, and it was great. They you know, messaged
Speaker 2: back and I recommended a book to them and they
Speaker 2: were like, oh, yeah, I've been meaning to read that
Speaker 2: but haven't yet. So it was just this is what
Speaker 2: I wanted from this, you know, if people reach out
Speaker 2: being the state of mind that I'm at, the healing
Speaker 2: that I've done, being ready and able to do that,
Speaker 2: and hopefully there'll be more. I was hoping for more
Speaker 2: opportunities to open, and it looks like some will, so
Speaker 2: that's really exciting. So yeah, I'm really thankful.
Speaker 1: Maybe this is a weird question, but do you have
Speaker 1: any thoughts about what you think Victor would think if
Speaker 1: he were to hear your story like this in full.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's obviously in prison at an undisclosed location.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Speaker 2: Oh? I mean I could see him thinking that he
Speaker 2: talked so much about the persecution, you know, and the
Speaker 2: end times when we were younger, and I could see
Speaker 2: him that this is just more of like persecution and
Speaker 2: me not sticking to my vows and you know that
Speaker 2: my place in heaven is going to be less. I
Speaker 2: could see him going that route. I don't really know
Speaker 2: how he views like himself, if he still thinks he's chosen,
Speaker 2: because I from what I've kind of heard, I don't
Speaker 2: even know if he has any supporters left. I don't know,
Speaker 2: or does he feel shame at all? Does he feel
Speaker 2: that he did do these things? And it's hard. I
Speaker 2: don't really know what.
Speaker 1: He would think. Yeah. Also, maybe that's a weird question
Speaker 1: to even ask or to put that on you. I mean,
Speaker 1: in a way, it's kind of like who cares? Yeah,
Speaker 1: But it is also just like an interesting thought, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like is he still under this delusion or this belief?
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the last things I heard about him too,
Speaker 2: is he wasn't really with it in his mind? So
Speaker 2: is he even with it enough to hear this or
Speaker 2: make sense of it. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just wonder in that period when he was arrested
Speaker 1: and then in prison, even a waiting trial, what did
Speaker 1: Victor tell his followers? Or maybe you don't know because
Speaker 1: like you weren't among them. But considering you know, even
Speaker 1: when you talk to Peggy, your mom, and she said
Speaker 1: mistakes were made, so on some level, maybe she was
Speaker 1: acknowledging something happened. And then even in the prison recordings,
Speaker 1: Victor acknowledged to some degree that he had done something wrong,
Speaker 1: or he had made mistakes or something. What do you
Speaker 1: think he was telling his followers? Do you think he
Speaker 1: ever really acknowledged to them what he had done? I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously he pled guilty, but did he just kind of
Speaker 1: avoided but kind of acknowledged maybe something happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that when it came out that he was
Speaker 2: sleeping with the married women, he shared it in a
Speaker 2: way that made you feel bad for him. He had
Speaker 2: been tempted, and just like David with the Bathsheba, you
Speaker 2: know that story in the Bible. So maybe it was
Speaker 2: along those lines. I did speak with somebody who was
Speaker 2: also grew up in the cult, and he shared with
Speaker 2: me that during that time, he did admit to everyone
Speaker 2: that he did those things to Jess and I, but
Speaker 2: only Jess and I. But I don't know. Again, you know,
Speaker 2: it could have been shared from a place where you
Speaker 2: feel bad for him instead of actually recognizing that well
Speaker 2: one he did it to. You're telling me only two
Speaker 2: of the maidens. I mean, come on, take the blinders
Speaker 2: off people. Yeah, so that was news. I just fought
Speaker 2: that out not too long ago. But again, even he
Speaker 2: was like, I mean, was it really repentance. No, So
Speaker 2: he may have just admitted to that to maybe help
Speaker 2: people be like, Okay, well, Lindsay and Jess are like
Speaker 2: speaking these evil things and you know Victor did do it,
Speaker 2: but the blood of the Lamb covers also, just like
Speaker 2: they've said to all of us so many times before.
Speaker 2: So I don't know that he Yeah, I don't think
Speaker 2: if he did share anything, it was out of like
Speaker 2: a true repentant heart. It was probably just okay, I
Speaker 2: did it. I'm gonna probably be going to jail, But
Speaker 2: in a way where you would still feel badly for him.
Speaker 1: Another question that I've actually gotten from people is just
Speaker 1: about what people knew at the time, which in a
Speaker 1: way is part of the crux of the story, And
Speaker 1: ultimately it comes back to the question of kind of like,
Speaker 1: how could this have happened? But what do you think
Speaker 1: people in the group knew at the time or could
Speaker 1: have deduced at the time as far as the abuse
Speaker 1: that was happening.
Speaker 2: I personally will never not think that they didn't know,
Speaker 2: especially the elders, the parents of the maidens, the ones
Speaker 2: who lived at the camp. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I have a very hard time believing it, and I
Speaker 2: truly just think that if they still claim, oh I
Speaker 2: didn't know or I thought something was going on, but
Speaker 2: I think that they just don't want to admit because
Speaker 2: that is I mean, if you admit it, then you
Speaker 2: are saying that you took part in it. To knowing
Speaker 2: and not doing anything and the abuse of those girls happening,
Speaker 2: how do you then live with yourself? I've always said
Speaker 2: that about my parents. If they really truly did admit
Speaker 2: what was happening, I don't know that they would be
Speaker 2: able to like, how do you continue to go on?
Speaker 2: Because knowing that, oh, my gosh, I let my daughter
Speaker 2: be raped by that man over all those years, and
Speaker 2: I knowingly gave her away, and when she was thirteen,
Speaker 2: he would wait till she was eighteen. Like, I just
Speaker 2: think there's too many red flags. And these people, it's
Speaker 2: not like they grew up in occult either. That's I mean,
Speaker 2: most of them had normal upbringings as children and in
Speaker 2: their families. And I know some people still give that excuse, well,
Speaker 2: they didn't really know, and I've never been one to
Speaker 2: buy into that. I just don't think that's true.
Speaker 1: That's a really interesting point you're making about how part
Speaker 1: of it might be how they're sort of rewriting their
Speaker 1: past now or how Yeah, as soon as they admit that,
Speaker 1: then there are all these other consequences. So whether they're
Speaker 1: telling themselves that or telling others that, it could be
Speaker 1: that they're just not willing to go there.
Speaker 2: No, definitely, And I mean Victor would travel in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety nine. It started, I believe he would travel to
Speaker 2: different locations with his camper, and generally it was then
Speaker 2: the girls who became the maidens us taking care of him,
Speaker 2: who were assigned to, you know, bring him coffee or
Speaker 2: help him with his notes or things like that. So
Speaker 2: I just don't buy it. I honestly don't anyone who
Speaker 2: was close to Victor or lived at the camp that
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. I just don't believe it. I still
Speaker 2: think it would be great to talk with like a
Speaker 2: brainwashing expert or you know, somebody who has who's studied
Speaker 2: that really well, who knows it, because I know I've
Speaker 2: heard that a lot. Oh they were brainwashed, and but
Speaker 2: again I I don't know. I don't buy into that either.
Speaker 2: My mother was very smart, she went to college. She
Speaker 2: people always say, oh, she was smart as a whip.
Speaker 2: She had so much going for her. But the fact
Speaker 2: that even when we moved to the camp and she
Speaker 2: wanted to put on her wedding dress when we got there,
Speaker 2: it just shows me she knew what she was doing.
Speaker 2: She wasn't just some brainwashed idiot who was going there
Speaker 2: like Ladi Da She. I don't know, what does that
Speaker 2: show to you? To me, it shows that she knew
Speaker 2: that she was making a commitment to move to Minnesota
Speaker 2: to join herself to Victor. The Fall before a Tabernacles
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight, Victor had taken off his wedding ring
Speaker 2: and done the church is married to Jesus Christ. They're
Speaker 2: the bride of Christ. I'm taking off my wedding ring
Speaker 2: representing that. So her pinting on her wedding dress signified.
Speaker 2: I mean, what I can imagine now was her showing
Speaker 2: that we're moving here, we're committing our lives to living
Speaker 2: for the hope for Jesus Christ with you. She knew
Speaker 2: what she was doing, So for me, it's bad excuses.
Speaker 2: I hear it mostly with my mother. She wasn't in
Speaker 2: the right mind. She did know what she was doing.
Speaker 2: She was brainwashed. I just I don't believe it. And
Speaker 2: you're telling me that happened that fast. I don't know
Speaker 2: how long brainwashing takes to work. What we were living
Speaker 2: out in the like regular world, you know, like regular people.
Speaker 2: November of ninety eight, we moved there by the summer
Speaker 2: of ninety nine. You're having me sleep in a camper
Speaker 2: with him. I just doesn't make sense in my mind. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, how could you be so far gone that
Speaker 2: you don't see any red flags and don't say anything
Speaker 2: and maybe fear. I mean my dad did say that
Speaker 2: at one point he was afraid to get kicked out,
Speaker 2: so we didn't say anything, But then I mean, that's
Speaker 2: a choice that you made. You decided to live by
Speaker 2: fear instead of being a parent and doing what's right
Speaker 2: and getting your kid and family out of there. So
Speaker 2: even if people say, oh, yeah, they were brainwashed, well,
Speaker 2: there's still consequences to actions, like you still have to
Speaker 2: admit to what you did and take accountability and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: We've been talking about my parents a lot in therapy.
Speaker 2: We've been talking about the history of them, what they
Speaker 2: were like is I was a child, to see if
Speaker 2: we could put any pieces together of why they did
Speaker 2: what they did. I was sharing how my mom she
Speaker 2: actually admitted at an Amway conference that she was an alcoholic.
Speaker 2: I didn't know that until after i'd left the cull,
Speaker 2: but I'd remembered in second grade, I was in charge
Speaker 2: of getting myself up, making my lunch, and getting myself
Speaker 2: on the bus while my mom would still be sleeping,
Speaker 2: and I didn't know that she was drunk. But there
Speaker 2: were times that I would miss the bus because I
Speaker 2: got busy watching cartoons and second grade, you're, what seven,
Speaker 2: so really young to be responsible for all that, And
Speaker 2: I'd go up there and try to wake her, and
Speaker 2: she'd tell me to go to the neighbors, to have
Speaker 2: the neighbor drive me to school. And then you know,
Speaker 2: just how things change. The more babies came along, the
Speaker 2: less things she had planned for us, the more we
Speaker 2: had to play with ourselves. And so the therapist was like,
Speaker 2: maybe the five kids it was almost too much for her.
Speaker 2: Not that that's an excuse, you know, for a parent,
Speaker 2: But then when Victor made it available for you to
Speaker 2: go to the camp, it was one less child for
Speaker 2: her to deal with. Basically in a way, which I
Speaker 2: mean could be it, I don't really know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in a way it's hard to ever really understand. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we all soo talked with Krista Lester Pitch, who was
Speaker 1: basically born into River Road Fellowship. She wasn't a maiden,
Speaker 1: but you know, it was a part of the group.
Speaker 1: What was it like hearing her story or her perspective.
Speaker 2: Hearing some of what she had to go through was sad.
Speaker 2: It just confirmed again the abuse that was happening on
Speaker 2: all different levels, not just you know, being raped, but
Speaker 2: as far as being shamed and the control and the
Speaker 2: mind games. And I think I'd never really heard of
Speaker 2: someone's perspective on the maidens from when we were there,
Speaker 2: like a younger girl, what they thought of us. So
Speaker 2: hearing or say that what the maidens wore, we kind
Speaker 2: of became like, oh, well I want that, And just
Speaker 2: how much we were in a sense idolized. I was like,
Speaker 2: I think I knew maybe like we were put on
Speaker 2: a pedestal, but I didn't know that that was the
Speaker 2: reaction that people we're having towards us. And it was
Speaker 2: crazy to hear because she was saying all those things
Speaker 2: and almost how our life looked great from the outside,
Speaker 2: you know, from her perspective, able to do all those
Speaker 2: things when and then knowing what I was really going through, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that was like, oh my gosh. But then you're thinking, oh,
Speaker 2: I want this pattern, but you had no idea what
Speaker 2: was happening behind the scenes, just how you know it
Speaker 2: must have been portrayed to other people of how our lives.
Speaker 1: Were, and yeah, what was really going on.
Speaker 2: I would say that was like a little hard to
Speaker 2: listen to because knowing that that's how people probably viewed us.
Speaker 2: But really at the time I probably was screaming on
Speaker 2: the inside to like leave and being verbally abused, raped mentally,
Speaker 2: you know, like all the things every single day, and
Speaker 2: then everyone on the outside was like, oh, well, I
Speaker 2: want to be a maiden or I want to wear
Speaker 2: what they're wearing or their hair like they have it,
Speaker 2: And yeah, that was hard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sorry that you had to experience that.
Speaker 2: Oh it's okay. It was just hearing it from a
Speaker 2: different perspective, you know that that's what probably other people thought.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I can also imagine it's different when it's
Speaker 1: a girl who's younger than you, who was born into
Speaker 1: the group. That's her reaction at the time, you know,
Speaker 1: she's a child as well, versus what I can imagine
Speaker 1: the perspective of the adults was, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: like she had always been a kid in a way,
Speaker 1: like didn't know any better, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really glad she was able to leave. And
Speaker 2: I messaged her after hearing episode eight, just saying that
Speaker 2: her kids are so lucky to have her and just
Speaker 2: her like love for them, and I'm really glad she
Speaker 2: was able to get out of there and start her life.
Speaker 1: What's life like for you now?
Speaker 2: It's good. Life is going really well. I am like
Speaker 2: working on a few things, which has been really exciting.
Speaker 2: A couple essays that I'm going to submit to a
Speaker 2: couple different columns and have been in touch with a
Speaker 2: book agent. That's been really exciting. And I want to
Speaker 2: have a platform I want to do. If anyone wants
Speaker 2: to have me speak at anything, I'd love to. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I want to do more speaking engagements. There's so much
Speaker 2: to tell. I think I definitely need to work on
Speaker 2: exactly like what my message would be, or like what
Speaker 2: topics i'd want to talk about, because you could go
Speaker 2: in so many different directions with this, and I know, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: seeing some of these come to fruition or being worked
Speaker 2: on is amusing.
Speaker 1: That's exciting. I'm really glad that you're feeling good in
Speaker 1: general about it all and that you feel like you
Speaker 1: have some exciting things on the horizon. That's great.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Other than that, it's like the you know, being
Speaker 2: a single mom, you never have a day off. So
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if I should limit that
Speaker 2: to single moms because parents they always have but they
Speaker 2: always are on, you know, for their kids, but it
Speaker 2: just falls everything falls on me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're allowed to say, Okay, the single
Speaker 1: mom thing is a lot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's just a lot of we're thick and
Speaker 2: already started school and all sports. I'm so excited. Frankie
Speaker 2: is barrel racing in her first rodeo in September, which
Speaker 2: whoa I know makes me so thankful when I found
Speaker 2: in her journal when we first moved to Texas in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, we went to our first rodeo here
Speaker 2: and I had found later that she had written, my
Speaker 2: mom took me to a rodeo tonight and I saw
Speaker 2: barrel racing, and I know that that's what I want
Speaker 2: to do. She was eight at the time.
Speaker 1: Pause. Wait, I don't know what barrel racing is.
Speaker 2: Oh, what is that. It's where they come out of
Speaker 2: the chute riding the horse relief. It's in an arena.
Speaker 2: They have three barrels set up almost like in a triangle.
Speaker 2: So you come out of the chute and there's a
Speaker 2: barrel a little bit further down on the right, one
Speaker 2: on the left, and then way down in the middle.
Speaker 2: So you race around the barrels in a pattern and
Speaker 2: get timed. So she fell in love with it and
Speaker 2: she started riding. And the girl that we're riding with now,
Speaker 2: her trainer, is absolutely amazing. She's so well connected, so
Speaker 2: generous with her time with Frankie, and so yeah, she's
Speaker 2: able to ride in her first rodeo. I looked at
Speaker 2: her the other day and I was like, do you
Speaker 2: ever think about the rodeo coming up? And this is
Speaker 2: like an dream come true of yours? She's like yeah
Speaker 2: all the time. And it made me so happy because
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like I relate everything back to
Speaker 2: what I didn't have, which I guess would say okay,
Speaker 2: because I'm like, in a thankfulness type of way, I
Speaker 2: didn't have that from my parents, and so it just
Speaker 2: made me so thankful that I'm at a place in
Speaker 2: my life where I can give her these things and
Speaker 2: support her. So that's really exciting for her and for me.
Speaker 1: That is amazing. That is so cool that Frankie's doing that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm very impressed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's great. And she's in drill team through school,
Speaker 2: so that's exciting. She has her first dance at the
Speaker 2: Frisco Roughriders game in August the end of August here,
Speaker 2: so that's exciting. Yeah, It's just I feel like my
Speaker 2: life really revolves around her right now. It's just that stage,
Speaker 2: you know, which is fine. I love it like I'm
Speaker 2: totally here for it. I'm going to blink and she's
Speaker 2: going to be off to college, so I'm just trying
Speaker 2: to really savor it all.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so honestly not like a ton of stuff I'm
Speaker 2: doing for myself Other than therapy writing, I've started on
Speaker 2: some more reading.
Speaker 1: You sound pretty busy.
Speaker 2: Yeah to me, yes, really busy. And I honestly don't
Speaker 2: mind hanging out with Frankie, which sounds weird, but you know,
Speaker 2: I mean I hear some parents like, ugh, like complain
Speaker 2: about their kids, and yes, you know, we have our
Speaker 2: arguments and stuff, but the majority of the time it's
Speaker 2: tons of laughs and even grocery shopping together is fun
Speaker 2: and I just love having her around. So it's good.
Speaker 2: It's a good season of life.
Speaker 1: I love that. Mm hm, Well, is there anything else
Speaker 1: you wanted to say in response to everything?
Speaker 2: Or I'm just so thankful for you in Erica and
Speaker 2: the whole team, the whole team please, like you probably have,
Speaker 2: but just my thanks to everyone who's worked on this.
Speaker 2: I'm really thankful that you guys helped make this a reality,
Speaker 2: and I mean that's one thing.
Speaker 1: Just very thankful for you guys, Really thank you, Lindsey
Speaker 1: for taking the time to really just open up and
Speaker 1: be so vulnerable to share your story, and also thanks
Speaker 1: for talking with me today too.
Speaker 2: My gosh, I was so excited.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been too long.
Speaker 2: It's been too long. Yeah, I'm so glad we were
Speaker 2: able to do this.
Speaker 1: The Tuning is a production of for Cocoa Punch and
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts. It's written and produced by Erica Lance and me.
Speaker 1: Our story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed
Speaker 1: by James Trout. Grace Doe is our production assistant. Fact
Speaker 1: checking by Andrea Lopez Cruzado. Our executive producers are John
Speaker 1: Piratti and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch and Katrina Norvella
Speaker 1: Nikki e Tour at iHeart Podcasts. You can follow us
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Rococo Punch, and you can reach out
Speaker 1: via email The Turning at Rococo punch dot com. I'm
Speaker 1: Alan Lance lessor thanks for listening.