WEBVTT - S3:EP 11 - Postscript: Lindsay 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.800 Lindsey, It's so good to see you. So good to 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:09.080 see you too. It's been a little while and I'm 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:11.360 so excited to just be able to talk with you 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:15.280 a bit today. How are you feeling good. 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:17.960 I'm really looking forward to this. I feel like it's 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.520 been forever since we've gotten to talk. 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:25.279 Yeah. Yeah, it is kind of wild. It's been like 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:28.840 over a year and a half since our first interview, 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:32.800 and now here we are sort of at the end 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:50.320 of it all, which is amazing. From Rocco Punch and 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:55.320 iHeart podcasts, this is the Turning River road. I'm Alan 0:00:55.400 --> 0:01:14.880 Lance Lesser. So what's it been like to hear your 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:17.440 story in full now out in the world. 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.280 I have been telling people it's such a different experience 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:25.880 hearing it being told. Even though I'm the one telling it, 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:29.080 and even though I lived it and I've told the 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:33.280 story so many times, it's a different experience hearing it. 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:38.000 There's been moments when I've been really sad for that girl. 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.920 There's moments when I'm so proud of her for her 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:45.399 courage and bravery. One thing that stood out for me 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:49.200 was the whiplash, you know, the back and forth. Am 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.000 I loved am I not loved. Am I wanted? Am 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:56.000 I hated? Am I in God's graces? Am I not 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.120 in his graces? I think was so apparent to me 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.680 at times I was, Oh, my gosh, I cannot believe 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.080 that I actually did live through all of that. It's 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:10.519 been a crazy experience listening to it being told, and 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:13.959 I think in chronological order, because you know, I'll tell 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:16.560 bits of my story here and there, and depending on 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:20.440 the audience, that depends on what I share. So I 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:24.720 think hearing it from episode one all the way through 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:29.120 has just been it's been good. It's hasn't been triggering 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:33.120 at all, which is great. I thought, you know, maybe 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.560 there would be parts where it would be and I've 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:40.680 definitely cried at different parts and have experienced lots of emotions, 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:44.320 but nothing to that, you know, set me back or anything, 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:45.720 which has been great. 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:51.040 Yeah. I mean, has it affected how you see everything 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:53.079 that happened? Looking back? 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:55.959 I think it has brought up a couple of things. 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:59.400 So I'm in therapy right now, which has been wonderful, 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:04.480 and it's been amazing. And one thing that I've kind 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:09.320 of realized, and I think I was almost embarrassed to 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:13.520 even think it or ashamed to think it. But before 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.560 the first and second episode came out, I wanted to 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:20.040 make a post on social media, and I wanted to 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:22.560 do a little collage. Some of it was the rings 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.840 and the veil and the saltish an excerpt for my 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:30.040 journal that I had written from that time, the screenshot 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:34.120 of Jess and I at the hearing, and then of 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:37.800 smattering of the notes Victor had written me. Wasn't all 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.840 of them? Just like some of them smattered around and 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:47.120 I looked at them and I started crying, and not 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:51.120 at all out of love for him, you know, like 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:53.240 oh my gosh, I miss him or anything like that. 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:57.360 It was more of was any of it real? Did 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:01.040 he ever really truly care about me? Because they're and 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:04.480 I'm not talking about anything intimate. It was, you know, 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.440 in those moments when maybe he gave me a song 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.680 to put to music, or he gave me a Bible 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:13.320 verse to research because he knew I liked doing that stuff. 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:17.800 But the times when he thought I was doing well 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.360 and showed me that he was appreciating the work I 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:24.480 was putting in, I was like, oh, what are these 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:29.320 tears like? And I kind of felt ashamed and embarrassed 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:33.440 to even I was like, why am I thinking having 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.080 these like thoughts? And I decided to bring it up 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:39.880 in therapy and told her all this stuff and she 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:44.120 put down her pad and pen and she was like, lindsay, 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:49.039 everything you're saying is totally normal. And we started talking 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:53.560 about Stockholm syndrome and how, especially kids who were abused 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.400 for such an early age, they kind of developed this 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.760 oh but they really did, you know, like care for 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:03.000 me and love me. And I think it's been so 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:06.080 good to talk about it because I've never talked about 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:09.640 that part before. I'm definitely I'm going to keep exploring 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.960 it in therapy, and I think it's really good because 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.320 I'm sure so many people deal with Stockholm syndrome and 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:19.800 could feel ashamed or embarrassed or guilty of why they're 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:21.719 having those thoughts, and so I think it's a really 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.080 great thing to talk about. So that's one thing that 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.840 after like seeing those notes from him and listening that 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.640 we're diving into therapy, that's been really great. 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:36.039 In bringing up Stockholm syndrome or kind of feeling these 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:41.599 positive emotions towards someone that has you know, abused you. 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.760 What is your interpretation of what was happening there and 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:47.880 your reaction and what that means for you. 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:51.640 Yeah, I think, well, we've kind of like just gotten 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:55.640 into it. But Victor, at a very young age, she 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:59.119 became everything to me, you know, he took everything away, 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:04.040 became in a sense, my mother, my father, my teacher, 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:08.440 my eventually lover, my apostle in my life, the person 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:11.160 who I was supposed to look to for guidance as 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:15.279 far as the Bible and heaven and everything. And so 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:19.360 I already, you know, had gotten to the point where 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:22.719 I knew and believed, truly believed it wasn't my fault. 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:26.039 But I think it's just even having those hints of 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.840 like looking at his handwriting, and I think it just 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:34.440 reaffirms for me, you know, and talking with my therapist, 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:37.279 that none of it was my fault. You know, that 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:39.560 he came in and did all these things, and my 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:43.920 reactions to it now even if it is like wondering, oh, 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:47.039 like was any of it real at any point that 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.040 because he did all those things, that is a normal 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:54.560 reaction to it. I don't know if that makes sense 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.880 at all. We're like definitely still in the beginning stages 0:06:57.960 --> 0:06:59.960 of working through this part. 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:03.599 Yeah, and actually that's a good point too, and that 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:07.560 so often my understanding is that as you process trauma, 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:11.000 it might like change over time and how you feel 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.800 about it changes, and there might be you know, you're 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:17.880 still kind of processing what happened, even though you've processed 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:21.119 it so much. You know, you're not at a clear 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:24.720 final conclusion or something. I mean, will anyone ever be right? 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:27.280 Yeah, constantly growing and evolving. 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:31.720 But know that makes sense that your interpretation is like, listen, 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.800 whatever I'm thinking, even if I'm trying to seek his 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:37.840 approval still or wondering how he felt about me, Like 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:41.640 that's not on me, like you were conditioned exactly. 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.360 Yeah, I think it's helped me see that in other 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:49.160 and again not like intimate relationships with boy friends or anything, 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.480 but maybe certain family members who had a sense of, 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:57.000 you know, had this authority to them at times I was, 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:59.560 you know, had this mentality of oh, I want to 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.320 make them, I want to do well, whether it was 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:07.320 completing a task or the way I thought about something, 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:10.280 or you know, agreeing with them on a certain subject 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:15.280 and explaining myself on why. It's helped me see those 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:17.320 things in my life and be like oh wow, like 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:21.800 I think I reacted that way because of what happened, 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:25.560 you know, and because of being conditioning to think that way. 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:30.120 So it's been really really good. 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:35.400 Have you had reactions from other people in your life? 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.680 From some of what I've heard, it seems like a 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:42.719 lot of people have heard your story and support you, 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:46.360 and like I've heard of people really, you know, having 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:50.360 your back, and based on the feedback we've gotten, people 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:54.240 think you're amazing, And I'm just curious if you've gotten 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:57.680 some of that feedback directly yourself or what kinds of 0:08:57.720 --> 0:08:59.000 reactions you've gotten. 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:05.560 Yeah, it's been pretty much all positive, so amazing, and 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:07.920 I wasn't sure when it would come out. In my mind, 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.959 I thought, oh, there's going to be some negative people 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:13.520 and just bracing for that. But it's been for the majority, 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:20.160 so wonderful people, I mean random strangers saying amazing things, 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:23.560 encouraging words. I even had a customer, a client that 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:26.680 I was working with. He emailed me, He's like, I 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:29.839 don't know if this is a weird way to say this. 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.640 He was very very gracious with what he wrote and 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:36.600 said that he had been listening to my podcast and 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:41.040 just really amazing things. And I thought that was really nice. 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:45.440 You know, people here and reaching out and. 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:48.280 Yeah, like in your real life. Yeah, people who might 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.640 have never known at everything you've been through. 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:56.079 Yeah, how'd that feel? Oh it felt great. I'm I 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.920 was just like, oh my goodness, you know, not weird 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:01.320 at all. Thank you so much, so much for saying 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:05.360 something and for listening. I'm just really glad it's getting 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.199 out there. Yeah. I've had a lot of positive feedback 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:12.199 from family members. A number of family members I haven't 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.959 heard from, which was kind of surprising. I thought maybe 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:20.520 I would hear from more, but hopefully they're listening. I 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.560 did reach out to one of my sisters before the 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:29.000 podcast aired, and I kind of realized that she had 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:33.160 never heard my story from me telling it. It was 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:36.640 probably what the media had told her, what the cult 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:39.520 at the time was telling her. So I just reached 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:41.559 out to her let her know it would be coming 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.439 out and that i'd appreciate it if she would take 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.280 the time to listen and afterwards, if she would like 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:51.400 to talk, I'd be open to that. Never heard from her. 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:55.839 That was back in June, so I don't know if 0:10:55.840 --> 0:11:01.000 she's listened or not, but I'm definitely hoping that if 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:05.800 people who did support Victor or gave excuses for what 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.840 happened if they listened to it, that their ears are open, 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:11.160 you know, because somebody can listen to something and it 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:14.120 just you know, go right over their head or something, 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:17.360 that their hearts are really open to hearing what happened. 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:22.800 Have you heard from anyone in the group or from 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:24.319 River Road Fellowship. 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:29.160 I did hear from one of the Maiden's brother and 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:36.720 sister separately. Yeah, that was really really nice, just them 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:41.160 sending a lot of encouragement. And one of them said 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:43.360 he was like, I think this is one of the 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:47.880 best things I've ever heard. And your honesty and how 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.920 you tackle everything is just amazing. And I know when 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.120 we talked in the beginning, I said, I want people 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:56.960 to feel like they're just sitting with me and we're 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:00.000 having a conversation. And that's a lot of the feedback 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:05.200 I've gotten, how compelling, how genuine, how truthful, how calm 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:09.320 I sound, which is wonderful because I wanted people just 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:11.400 to get to know me, even when we are talking 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:14.560 about really hard things. And you know, the last that 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:17.200 you leave in I've left along with myself, you know, 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.720 telling the story. It's just Yeah, that's been good. So 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.800 hearing from those two was great. Somebody commented on one 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.439 of my posts on Facebook, but that's about it. I think. 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.640 I wonder, you know, if they're listening, and. 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:41.960 Yeah, any memories that we haven't delved into, that you 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.720 were reminded of or that have more recently come to 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:47.280 mind or kind of stand out to you. 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.760 Hearing Reese's voice on the podcast brought back a lot 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:54.439 of memories from that time. 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:58.679 Reese the prosecutor on the case Rees Fredrickson. 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.600 I remember just and I preparing to meet him for 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:07.840 the first time, and of course being nervous because it 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:11.600 had been two years of almost nothing, you know, like 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:16.240 nothing going anywhere, and so just wondering if almost that 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.320 maybe the way he was thinking of us, you know, 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:21.680 like is he the real deal? He really gonna take 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:25.280 on this case and fight for us. And so hearing 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:28.280 him say that he knew within five seconds, I mean, 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:31.960 I was like, what, that's crazy, because we knew or 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.079 I'll speak for myself, but I know, I know Jess 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.000 was like in it with us, knew right away that 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:40.160 he was the one to represent us. 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:45.600 And why do you have that feeling he just he seemed. 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:53.120 Very genuine, very compassionate, and just convinced that he was 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.319 going to find Victor and put him in jail for us, 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:58.760 that he just got the sense that he wouldn't stop 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.760 fighting until justice took place. 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.319 Any other things like that that kind of came up 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:05.600 for you. 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.200 I mean, there were things that made me think back 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:13.160 on those times, like hearing the maiden's voices on the calls, 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:18.560 hearing my mom's voice on the call, that would bring 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:20.720 me back to those moments. I think hearing the Maidens 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:27.360 especially that was hard because not because of them not 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:31.120 supporting us, but again of just hearing their voices and 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:35.200 remembering some of the good times and things and how 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.520 things are so different now and wondering if they're listening 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:43.120 to the podcast and what their opinion is of it. 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.120 That was a little bit hard to hear them. 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:55.200 It does seem like a reaction. You've said numerous times 0:14:55.360 --> 0:15:01.000 is what's painful is also the loss of your relationship 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:06.640 with the other Maidens and like missing aspects of that life. 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:10.320 But because of what happened, a lot of that has 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:14.360 been sort of destroyed, and that that's part of the 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.680 pain you now feel. Yeah, it's just an example of 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:21.920 how these things can come up in a variety of ways, 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:28.040 in ways that maybe an outsider might not think of initially. 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.640 Right, you know, because they were my family for all 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:34.720 those years, the only ones I really had. So yeah, 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.240 definitely there's still a hole there that probably will never 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:40.800 be filled. I mean, how do you feel a loss 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.560 like that, losing nine of your best friends that you've 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:48.800 grown up with since you were a kid. Hearing Jessa's episode, 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:51.720 Oh that was that was tough. 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:54.240 Yeah. 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:58.320 I love how she was conveyed so beautifully though, you know, 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.680 I think people really got the hopefully the sense of 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:06.400 who she was and how beautiful and bright and her 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:13.240 free spirit. But yeah, that did. Like when I heard 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:17.080 her passing, that just brought back so many memories and 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:20.560 like just that, you know, it was COVID, so I 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:25.640 couldn't go see go to the funeral, and yeah, that 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:28.920 was really hard. It's funny because a Facebook memory popped 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:31.720 up today from five years ago. I had posted a 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.000 picture of Jess and I and just talking about how 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:37.360 much I missed her, and I was like, I sometimes 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:41.360 find myself talking to you, and I said something like 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:43.440 you weren't supposed to leave this early, but you were 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:45.840 always one step ahead of me, you know, since she 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:52.400 had left the cult before I did. That was a 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.760 tough one to hear. But also I really beautifully done. 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:59.200 I thought, Yeah, what emotions came out for you? 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:06.600 Sadness, happiness, like just a lot of memories. I don't 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:08.119 know what I think of Jess and I now. I 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.240 always just picture us playing our guitars together, because it's 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:15.320 one of those happy, safe moments, you know, on the 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.679 deck of the chapel with the wind blowing. And I 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:22.080 think almost every time I see someone playing a guitar 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:27.280 guitars in somebody's house, it brings me back to Jess 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:31.000 and I, and not in a painful way, in a 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:37.240 almost like a happy, longing type way. I visited a 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.040 friend's house a couple weekends ago, him and his wife. 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:43.600 He had a couple of guitars there and I was like, oh, 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:47.240 like one was a Martin. I said, oh, this is 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:49.800 a really good and I used to have my dad's. 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:54.720 It's probably forty some years old by now, maybe, And 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:58.480 he handed one of the guitars to me. I started playing, 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:03.399 and he was playing, and then later on he was 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.840 at the piano and they had like a whole karaoke setup. 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:10.840 So we just started singing and jamming out and I 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:17.119 have not done that since the Maidens, and I almost 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:20.800 started crying, but I was like, come on, Lindsay, don't 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:25.840 be weird, like just but yeah, it just kind of 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:28.760 and the wife was in the kitchen putting dishes away, 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:31.359 and it just brought me back to being in the 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.600 kitchen at the farmhouse that made in love, some of 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:38.720 the maidens cleaning up from dinner, some of us playing 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:43.600 music and singing together, and it wasn't like those memories 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:50.600 used to be really painful. But my tears weren't from pain. 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:54.360 It was just from thankfulness, I think, for the time 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:58.000 we did have together, even though it was so terrible 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:02.680 a situation, we were in thankfulness that we had those 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:07.840 sweet moments, you know, of just being ourselves and playing 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:14.040 our instruments and having a moment of serenity in the 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:52.679 midst of the chaos that was our lives. I listened 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:56.800 to can I talk about Episode ten? Yeah, okay, listen 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:02.360 to that today twice. I was really proud of myself, 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:04.680 I think because I, you know, when I was talking 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:08.280 about family members listening to it, and the people have 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:13.200 supported my parents and the excuses I sounded very brave 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:16.480 and bold. I was like, go me, And I'm glad 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:19.560 that that came through on there, because you should feel 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:24.960 empowered as a survivor, you know. And the letter to Peggy, 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.280 my mother, that was tough to hear, definitely brought tears, 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:30.720 especially now since I am a mom. I mean, every 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.359 time I think about what I wrote there and then 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:37.479 think about Frankie and I and just how different and 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:41.640 wonderful our relationship is and what a contrast, you know. 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:44.440 Yeah, because you wrote that before you were a mom 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:49.040 talking about your you know, future kids, and now you 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:50.240 have a kid. 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:55.520 Yeah. I think a big topic that I've seen through 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:59.359 all of this is breaking the cycle being raised that way, 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:03.560 condition that way. For so long, I've had people ask me, oh, well, 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:05.480 how did you know to do that with Frankie or 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:07.919 how did you know to handle a situation like that? 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:10.919 And I mean, I don't know if I have a 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.080 full answer for that, But what I try to do 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:16.200 is think about the way I was raised and how 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:19.680 I would want to be treated as a kid, and 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.600 how I would want to be heard and you know, 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:27.119 loved and valued. And it's really helped me. You know, 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:30.399 there's certain things that I will never do because it 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:33.600 was done to me. And I think breaking the cycle 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:36.040 that's been like a big topic that's been on my mind, 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:39.160 and I think it's important because so many people could 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:42.600 go through something like this, and then you see examples 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:45.080 of this where people will do something and people say, oh, well, 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:46.840 look at how they were raised. Of course they did 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:50.159 that because their parents did that and their grandparents did that, 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:53.879 and it's so easy to just give excuses for that 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:57.640 type of behavior like, oh, well, that's just how they 0:21:57.640 --> 0:21:59.520 were raised, so of course they're going to repeat it 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:03.199 when it doesn't have to be that way. There's another 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:06.280 way to break that and to live your life and 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.680 raise your kids, whatever you're going to do with your life. 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:13.520 So hearing the story and then the parts about me 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:16.040 and Frankie and seeing how our lives are now, it's 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:19.479 been really a parent that I've been able to do that, 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:23.040 and I'm so thankful for that, and hopefully we'll be 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:27.120 able to share more of that on that topic as 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:28.159 time goes on. 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:34.760 Yeah, it's interesting. As I've been thinking about your story 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:38.880 and sort of the way that you've shared it, something 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:41.800 that strikes me is I've heard a lot of you know, 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:46.439 like cult documentaries and things in the world, but something 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:49.719 that stands out about how you shared your story was 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:54.320 the perspective of a kid. You know, you're just in it. 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:57.119 You didn't have a say, you didn't get to decide, 0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:01.919 and you just kind of were survived and living and 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:05.159 trying to find the joy where you could. And you 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:08.240 did find the joy in some cases, you know, but 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:13.920 you also faced a lot of horrible things. And seeing 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:18.680 it from that perspective, from the beginning through the end, 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.119 that struck me as I hear your story. 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:26.280 Yeah, before this came out, I wanted to take Frankie 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:28.520 to therapy with me, just because I thought it would 0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:31.000 be good. Like you never know. She doesn't have social 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:33.760 media or a phone, but you just never know kids 0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:36.679 at school or what she's going to hear. I just 0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:39.200 thought it'd be good in case she had any questions. 0:23:39.240 --> 0:23:42.680 And I've never really told her in more depth other 0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:44.680 than like a concubine or my parents gave me away 0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:48.840 when it happened. So we went booked a two hour 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:51.600 session like back to back Sweeden have time, So my 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:53.880 therapist met with her first just to get to know where, 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:58.440 which was wonderful. And then I went in there as well, 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:02.120 and she had me start from the beginning to tell 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:04.760 Frankie kind of what my childhood was like, which I've 0:24:05.359 --> 0:24:08.119 never even thought to do that. I thought it was 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:11.560 great because it's her history too, you know, even though 0:24:11.560 --> 0:24:16.119 were grandparents did terrible things, just to know what my 0:24:16.200 --> 0:24:18.800 life was like as a kid. Then of course we 0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:21.520 got to the point where we met Victor and then 0:24:21.600 --> 0:24:24.320 us moving to Minnesota, and I was telling the story 0:24:24.359 --> 0:24:28.680 of how my mom had her siblings come through our 0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:32.879 house and say to them, oh, you know, all the 0:24:32.920 --> 0:24:35.560 pictures on the walls. If you want the frames, you know, 0:24:35.680 --> 0:24:37.960 take them. They were really nice frames. She would always 0:24:38.080 --> 0:24:39.840 it was all of us as kids. She would get 0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:44.040 our pictures done at Olind Mills every year or a 0:24:44.080 --> 0:24:47.480 couple times a year. And one of them said, oh, Peggy, 0:24:47.520 --> 0:24:49.920 don't you want the pictures? And She's like, no, I'm 0:24:49.920 --> 0:24:55.199 not taking them. And Frankie looked up and she's like, 0:24:55.880 --> 0:25:00.960 why didn't your mom love her kids? And like you 0:25:01.000 --> 0:25:05.640 were just saying, hearing from a child's perspective. I looked 0:25:05.680 --> 0:25:11.160 at my therapist and tears started falling. I just never 0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:14.439 thought of that before. You know, like I've heard the story. 0:25:14.520 --> 0:25:17.760 I've told that story, but hearing it from a ten 0:25:17.840 --> 0:25:23.280 year old's perspective, and also knowing she thought that it 0:25:23.359 --> 0:25:25.520 was such a foreign concept to her because she'll never 0:25:25.600 --> 0:25:29.480 know that kind of she'll always be loved, she'll never 0:25:29.520 --> 0:25:32.639 know that kind of feeling of not being wanted by me. 0:25:33.800 --> 0:25:38.120 That was an emotional for me moment hearing that from her. 0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:44.440 Yeah, it's almost like Frankie has allowed you to even 0:25:44.520 --> 0:25:50.040 see things differently or recognize things in your past that 0:25:50.400 --> 0:25:53.080