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Speaker 1: Lindsey, It's so good to see you. So good to

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Speaker 1: see you too. It's been a little while and I'm

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Speaker 1: so excited to just be able to talk with you

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Speaker 1: a bit today. How are you feeling good.

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Speaker 2: I'm really looking forward to this. I feel like it's

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Speaker 2: been forever since we've gotten to talk.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it is kind of wild. It's been like

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Speaker 1: over a year and a half since our first interview,

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Speaker 1: and now here we are sort of at the end

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Speaker 1: of it all, which is amazing. From Rocco Punch and

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Speaker 1: iHeart podcasts, this is the Turning River road. I'm Alan

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Speaker 1: Lance Lesser. So what's it been like to hear your

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Speaker 1: story in full now out in the world.

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Speaker 2: I have been telling people it's such a different experience

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Speaker 2: hearing it being told. Even though I'm the one telling it,

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Speaker 2: and even though I lived it and I've told the

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Speaker 2: story so many times, it's a different experience hearing it.

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Speaker 2: There's been moments when I've been really sad for that girl.

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Speaker 2: There's moments when I'm so proud of her for her

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Speaker 2: courage and bravery. One thing that stood out for me

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Speaker 2: was the whiplash, you know, the back and forth. Am

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Speaker 2: I loved am I not loved. Am I wanted? Am

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Speaker 2: I hated? Am I in God's graces? Am I not

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Speaker 2: in his graces? I think was so apparent to me

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Speaker 2: at times I was, Oh, my gosh, I cannot believe

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Speaker 2: that I actually did live through all of that. It's

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Speaker 2: been a crazy experience listening to it being told, and

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Speaker 2: I think in chronological order, because you know, I'll tell

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Speaker 2: bits of my story here and there, and depending on

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Speaker 2: the audience, that depends on what I share. So I

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Speaker 2: think hearing it from episode one all the way through

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Speaker 2: has just been it's been good. It's hasn't been triggering

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Speaker 2: at all, which is great. I thought, you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: there would be parts where it would be and I've

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Speaker 2: definitely cried at different parts and have experienced lots of emotions,

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Speaker 2: but nothing to that, you know, set me back or anything,

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Speaker 2: which has been great.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, has it affected how you see everything

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Speaker 1: that happened? Looking back?

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Speaker 2: I think it has brought up a couple of things.

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Speaker 2: So I'm in therapy right now, which has been wonderful,

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Speaker 2: and it's been amazing. And one thing that I've kind

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Speaker 2: of realized, and I think I was almost embarrassed to

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Speaker 2: even think it or ashamed to think it. But before

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Speaker 2: the first and second episode came out, I wanted to

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Speaker 2: make a post on social media, and I wanted to

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Speaker 2: do a little collage. Some of it was the rings

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Speaker 2: and the veil and the saltish an excerpt for my

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Speaker 2: journal that I had written from that time, the screenshot

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Speaker 2: of Jess and I at the hearing, and then of

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Speaker 2: smattering of the notes Victor had written me. Wasn't all

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Speaker 2: of them? Just like some of them smattered around and

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Speaker 2: I looked at them and I started crying, and not

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Speaker 2: at all out of love for him, you know, like

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, I miss him or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: It was more of was any of it real? Did

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Speaker 2: he ever really truly care about me? Because they're and

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Speaker 2: I'm not talking about anything intimate. It was, you know,

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Speaker 2: in those moments when maybe he gave me a song

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Speaker 2: to put to music, or he gave me a Bible

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Speaker 2: verse to research because he knew I liked doing that stuff.

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Speaker 2: But the times when he thought I was doing well

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Speaker 2: and showed me that he was appreciating the work I

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Speaker 2: was putting in, I was like, oh, what are these

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Speaker 2: tears like? And I kind of felt ashamed and embarrassed

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Speaker 2: to even I was like, why am I thinking having

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Speaker 2: these like thoughts? And I decided to bring it up

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Speaker 2: in therapy and told her all this stuff and she

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Speaker 2: put down her pad and pen and she was like, lindsay,

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Speaker 2: everything you're saying is totally normal. And we started talking

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Speaker 2: about Stockholm syndrome and how, especially kids who were abused

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Speaker 2: for such an early age, they kind of developed this

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Speaker 2: oh but they really did, you know, like care for

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Speaker 2: me and love me. And I think it's been so

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Speaker 2: good to talk about it because I've never talked about

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Speaker 2: that part before. I'm definitely I'm going to keep exploring

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Speaker 2: it in therapy, and I think it's really good because

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Speaker 2: I'm sure so many people deal with Stockholm syndrome and

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Speaker 2: could feel ashamed or embarrassed or guilty of why they're

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Speaker 2: having those thoughts, and so I think it's a really

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Speaker 2: great thing to talk about. So that's one thing that

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Speaker 2: after like seeing those notes from him and listening that

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Speaker 2: we're diving into therapy, that's been really great.

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Speaker 1: In bringing up Stockholm syndrome or kind of feeling these

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Speaker 1: positive emotions towards someone that has you know, abused you.

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Speaker 1: What is your interpretation of what was happening there and

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Speaker 1: your reaction and what that means for you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, well, we've kind of like just gotten

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Speaker 2: into it. But Victor, at a very young age, she

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Speaker 2: became everything to me, you know, he took everything away,

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Speaker 2: became in a sense, my mother, my father, my teacher,

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Speaker 2: my eventually lover, my apostle in my life, the person

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Speaker 2: who I was supposed to look to for guidance as

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Speaker 2: far as the Bible and heaven and everything. And so

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Speaker 2: I already, you know, had gotten to the point where

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Speaker 2: I knew and believed, truly believed it wasn't my fault.

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Speaker 2: But I think it's just even having those hints of

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Speaker 2: like looking at his handwriting, and I think it just

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Speaker 2: reaffirms for me, you know, and talking with my therapist,

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Speaker 2: that none of it was my fault. You know, that

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Speaker 2: he came in and did all these things, and my

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Speaker 2: reactions to it now even if it is like wondering, oh,

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Speaker 2: like was any of it real at any point that

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Speaker 2: because he did all those things, that is a normal

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Speaker 2: reaction to it. I don't know if that makes sense

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Speaker 2: at all. We're like definitely still in the beginning stages

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Speaker 2: of working through this part.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and actually that's a good point too, and that

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Speaker 1: so often my understanding is that as you process trauma,

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Speaker 1: it might like change over time and how you feel

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Speaker 1: about it changes, and there might be you know, you're

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Speaker 1: still kind of processing what happened, even though you've processed

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Speaker 1: it so much. You know, you're not at a clear

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Speaker 1: final conclusion or something. I mean, will anyone ever be right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, constantly growing and evolving.

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Speaker 1: But know that makes sense that your interpretation is like, listen,

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Speaker 1: whatever I'm thinking, even if I'm trying to seek his

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Speaker 1: approval still or wondering how he felt about me, Like

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Speaker 1: that's not on me, like you were conditioned exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's helped me see that in other

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Speaker 2: and again not like intimate relationships with boy friends or anything,

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Speaker 2: but maybe certain family members who had a sense of,

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Speaker 2: you know, had this authority to them at times I was,

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Speaker 2: you know, had this mentality of oh, I want to

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Speaker 2: make them, I want to do well, whether it was

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Speaker 2: completing a task or the way I thought about something,

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Speaker 2: or you know, agreeing with them on a certain subject

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Speaker 2: and explaining myself on why. It's helped me see those

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Speaker 2: things in my life and be like oh wow, like

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Speaker 2: I think I reacted that way because of what happened,

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Speaker 2: you know, and because of being conditioning to think that way.

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Speaker 2: So it's been really really good.

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Speaker 1: Have you had reactions from other people in your life?

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Speaker 1: From some of what I've heard, it seems like a

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Speaker 1: lot of people have heard your story and support you,

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Speaker 1: and like I've heard of people really, you know, having

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Speaker 1: your back, and based on the feedback we've gotten, people

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Speaker 1: think you're amazing, And I'm just curious if you've gotten

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Speaker 1: some of that feedback directly yourself or what kinds of

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Speaker 1: reactions you've gotten.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been pretty much all positive, so amazing, and

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Speaker 2: I wasn't sure when it would come out. In my mind,

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Speaker 2: I thought, oh, there's going to be some negative people

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Speaker 2: and just bracing for that. But it's been for the majority,

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Speaker 2: so wonderful people, I mean random strangers saying amazing things,

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Speaker 2: encouraging words. I even had a customer, a client that

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Speaker 2: I was working with. He emailed me, He's like, I

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Speaker 2: don't know if this is a weird way to say this.

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Speaker 2: He was very very gracious with what he wrote and

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Speaker 2: said that he had been listening to my podcast and

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Speaker 2: just really amazing things. And I thought that was really nice.

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Speaker 2: You know, people here and reaching out and.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like in your real life. Yeah, people who might

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Speaker 1: have never known at everything you've been through.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how'd that feel? Oh it felt great. I'm I

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Speaker 2: was just like, oh my goodness, you know, not weird

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Speaker 2: at all. Thank you so much, so much for saying

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Speaker 2: something and for listening. I'm just really glad it's getting

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Speaker 2: out there. Yeah. I've had a lot of positive feedback

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Speaker 2: from family members. A number of family members I haven't

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Speaker 2: heard from, which was kind of surprising. I thought maybe

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Speaker 2: I would hear from more, but hopefully they're listening. I

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Speaker 2: did reach out to one of my sisters before the

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Speaker 2: podcast aired, and I kind of realized that she had

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Speaker 2: never heard my story from me telling it. It was

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Speaker 2: probably what the media had told her, what the cult

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Speaker 2: at the time was telling her. So I just reached

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Speaker 2: out to her let her know it would be coming

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Speaker 2: out and that i'd appreciate it if she would take

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Speaker 2: the time to listen and afterwards, if she would like

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Speaker 2: to talk, I'd be open to that. Never heard from her.

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Speaker 2: That was back in June, so I don't know if

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Speaker 2: she's listened or not, but I'm definitely hoping that if

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Speaker 2: people who did support Victor or gave excuses for what

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Speaker 2: happened if they listened to it, that their ears are open,

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Speaker 2: you know, because somebody can listen to something and it

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Speaker 2: just you know, go right over their head or something,

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Speaker 2: that their hearts are really open to hearing what happened.

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Speaker 1: Have you heard from anyone in the group or from

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Speaker 1: River Road Fellowship.

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Speaker 2: I did hear from one of the Maiden's brother and

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Speaker 2: sister separately. Yeah, that was really really nice, just them

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Speaker 2: sending a lot of encouragement. And one of them said

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Speaker 2: he was like, I think this is one of the

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Speaker 2: best things I've ever heard. And your honesty and how

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Speaker 2: you tackle everything is just amazing. And I know when

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Speaker 2: we talked in the beginning, I said, I want people

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Speaker 2: to feel like they're just sitting with me and we're

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Speaker 2: having a conversation. And that's a lot of the feedback

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Speaker 2: I've gotten, how compelling, how genuine, how truthful, how calm

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Speaker 2: I sound, which is wonderful because I wanted people just

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Speaker 2: to get to know me, even when we are talking

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Speaker 2: about really hard things. And you know, the last that

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Speaker 2: you leave in I've left along with myself, you know,

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Speaker 2: telling the story. It's just Yeah, that's been good. So

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Speaker 2: hearing from those two was great. Somebody commented on one

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Speaker 2: of my posts on Facebook, but that's about it. I think.

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Speaker 2: I wonder, you know, if they're listening, and.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, any memories that we haven't delved into, that you

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Speaker 1: were reminded of or that have more recently come to

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Speaker 1: mind or kind of stand out to you.

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Speaker 2: Hearing Reese's voice on the podcast brought back a lot

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Speaker 2: of memories from that time.

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Speaker 1: Reese the prosecutor on the case Rees Fredrickson.

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Speaker 2: I remember just and I preparing to meet him for

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Speaker 2: the first time, and of course being nervous because it

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Speaker 2: had been two years of almost nothing, you know, like

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Speaker 2: nothing going anywhere, and so just wondering if almost that

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Speaker 2: maybe the way he was thinking of us, you know,

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Speaker 2: like is he the real deal? He really gonna take

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Speaker 2: on this case and fight for us. And so hearing

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Speaker 2: him say that he knew within five seconds, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I was like, what, that's crazy, because we knew or

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Speaker 2: I'll speak for myself, but I know, I know Jess

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Speaker 2: was like in it with us, knew right away that

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Speaker 2: he was the one to represent us.

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Speaker 1: And why do you have that feeling he just he seemed.

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Speaker 2: Very genuine, very compassionate, and just convinced that he was

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Speaker 2: going to find Victor and put him in jail for us,

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Speaker 2: that he just got the sense that he wouldn't stop

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Speaker 2: fighting until justice took place.

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Speaker 1: Any other things like that that kind of came up

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Speaker 1: for you.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there were things that made me think back

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Speaker 2: on those times, like hearing the maiden's voices on the calls,

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Speaker 2: hearing my mom's voice on the call, that would bring

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Speaker 2: me back to those moments. I think hearing the Maidens

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Speaker 2: especially that was hard because not because of them not

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Speaker 2: supporting us, but again of just hearing their voices and

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Speaker 2: remembering some of the good times and things and how

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Speaker 2: things are so different now and wondering if they're listening

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Speaker 2: to the podcast and what their opinion is of it.

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Speaker 2: That was a little bit hard to hear them.

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Speaker 1: It does seem like a reaction. You've said numerous times

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Speaker 1: is what's painful is also the loss of your relationship

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Speaker 1: with the other Maidens and like missing aspects of that life.

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Speaker 1: But because of what happened, a lot of that has

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Speaker 1: been sort of destroyed, and that that's part of the

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Speaker 1: pain you now feel. Yeah, it's just an example of

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Speaker 1: how these things can come up in a variety of ways,

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Speaker 1: in ways that maybe an outsider might not think of initially.

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Speaker 2: Right, you know, because they were my family for all

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Speaker 2: those years, the only ones I really had. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: definitely there's still a hole there that probably will never

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Speaker 2: be filled. I mean, how do you feel a loss

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Speaker 2: like that, losing nine of your best friends that you've

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Speaker 2: grown up with since you were a kid. Hearing Jessa's episode,

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Speaker 2: Oh that was that was tough.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I love how she was conveyed so beautifully though, you know,

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Speaker 2: I think people really got the hopefully the sense of

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Speaker 2: who she was and how beautiful and bright and her

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Speaker 2: free spirit. But yeah, that did. Like when I heard

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Speaker 2: her passing, that just brought back so many memories and

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Speaker 2: like just that, you know, it was COVID, so I

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Speaker 2: couldn't go see go to the funeral, and yeah, that

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Speaker 2: was really hard. It's funny because a Facebook memory popped

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Speaker 2: up today from five years ago. I had posted a

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Speaker 2: picture of Jess and I and just talking about how

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Speaker 2: much I missed her, and I was like, I sometimes

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Speaker 2: find myself talking to you, and I said something like

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Speaker 2: you weren't supposed to leave this early, but you were

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Speaker 2: always one step ahead of me, you know, since she

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Speaker 2: had left the cult before I did. That was a

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Speaker 2: tough one to hear. But also I really beautifully done.

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Speaker 1: I thought, Yeah, what emotions came out for you?

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Speaker 2: Sadness, happiness, like just a lot of memories. I don't

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Speaker 2: know what I think of Jess and I now. I

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Speaker 2: always just picture us playing our guitars together, because it's

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Speaker 2: one of those happy, safe moments, you know, on the

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Speaker 2: deck of the chapel with the wind blowing. And I

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Speaker 2: think almost every time I see someone playing a guitar

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Speaker 2: guitars in somebody's house, it brings me back to Jess

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Speaker 2: and I, and not in a painful way, in a

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Speaker 2: almost like a happy, longing type way. I visited a

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Speaker 2: friend's house a couple weekends ago, him and his wife.

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Speaker 2: He had a couple of guitars there and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: like one was a Martin. I said, oh, this is

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Speaker 2: a really good and I used to have my dad's.

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Speaker 2: It's probably forty some years old by now, maybe, And

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Speaker 2: he handed one of the guitars to me. I started playing,

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Speaker 2: and he was playing, and then later on he was

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Speaker 2: at the piano and they had like a whole karaoke setup.

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Speaker 2: So we just started singing and jamming out and I

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Speaker 2: have not done that since the Maidens, and I almost

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Speaker 2: started crying, but I was like, come on, Lindsay, don't

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Speaker 2: be weird, like just but yeah, it just kind of

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Speaker 2: and the wife was in the kitchen putting dishes away,

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Speaker 2: and it just brought me back to being in the

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Speaker 2: kitchen at the farmhouse that made in love, some of

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Speaker 2: the maidens cleaning up from dinner, some of us playing

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Speaker 2: music and singing together, and it wasn't like those memories

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Speaker 2: used to be really painful. But my tears weren't from pain.

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Speaker 2: It was just from thankfulness, I think, for the time

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Speaker 2: we did have together, even though it was so terrible

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Speaker 2: a situation, we were in thankfulness that we had those

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Speaker 2: sweet moments, you know, of just being ourselves and playing

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Speaker 2: our instruments and having a moment of serenity in the

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Speaker 2: midst of the chaos that was our lives. I listened

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Speaker 2: to can I talk about Episode ten? Yeah, okay, listen

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Speaker 2: to that today twice. I was really proud of myself,

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Speaker 2: I think because I, you know, when I was talking

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Speaker 2: about family members listening to it, and the people have

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Speaker 2: supported my parents and the excuses I sounded very brave

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Speaker 2: and bold. I was like, go me, And I'm glad

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Speaker 2: that that came through on there, because you should feel

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Speaker 2: empowered as a survivor, you know. And the letter to Peggy,

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Speaker 2: my mother, that was tough to hear, definitely brought tears,

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Speaker 2: especially now since I am a mom. I mean, every

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Speaker 2: time I think about what I wrote there and then

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Speaker 2: think about Frankie and I and just how different and

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Speaker 2: wonderful our relationship is and what a contrast, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because you wrote that before you were a mom

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Speaker 1: talking about your you know, future kids, and now you

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Speaker 1: have a kid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think a big topic that I've seen through

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Speaker 2: all of this is breaking the cycle being raised that way,

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Speaker 2: condition that way. For so long, I've had people ask me, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: how did you know to do that with Frankie or

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Speaker 2: how did you know to handle a situation like that?

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Speaker 2: And I mean, I don't know if I have a

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Speaker 2: full answer for that, But what I try to do

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Speaker 2: is think about the way I was raised and how

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Speaker 2: I would want to be treated as a kid, and

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Speaker 2: how I would want to be heard and you know,

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Speaker 2: loved and valued. And it's really helped me. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's certain things that I will never do because it

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Speaker 2: was done to me. And I think breaking the cycle

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Speaker 2: that's been like a big topic that's been on my mind,

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Speaker 2: and I think it's important because so many people could

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Speaker 2: go through something like this, and then you see examples

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Speaker 2: of this where people will do something and people say, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: look at how they were raised. Of course they did

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00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,159
Speaker 2: that because their parents did that and their grandparents did that,

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Speaker 2: and it's so easy to just give excuses for that

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Speaker 2: type of behavior like, oh, well, that's just how they

337
00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 2: were raised, so of course they're going to repeat it

338
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,199
Speaker 2: when it doesn't have to be that way. There's another

339
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 2: way to break that and to live your life and

340
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 2: raise your kids, whatever you're going to do with your life.

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Speaker 2: So hearing the story and then the parts about me

342
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Speaker 2: and Frankie and seeing how our lives are now, it's

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Speaker 2: been really a parent that I've been able to do that,

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Speaker 2: and I'm so thankful for that, and hopefully we'll be

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Speaker 2: able to share more of that on that topic as

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Speaker 2: time goes on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. As I've been thinking about your story

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Speaker 1: and sort of the way that you've shared it, something

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Speaker 1: that strikes me is I've heard a lot of you know,

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Speaker 1: like cult documentaries and things in the world, but something

351
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,719
Speaker 1: that stands out about how you shared your story was

352
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Speaker 1: the perspective of a kid. You know, you're just in it.

353
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Speaker 1: You didn't have a say, you didn't get to decide,

354
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Speaker 1: and you just kind of were survived and living and

355
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 1: trying to find the joy where you could. And you

356
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: did find the joy in some cases, you know, but

357
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 1: you also faced a lot of horrible things. And seeing

358
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Speaker 1: it from that perspective, from the beginning through the end,

359
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 1: that struck me as I hear your story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, before this came out, I wanted to take Frankie

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Speaker 2: to therapy with me, just because I thought it would

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Speaker 2: be good. Like you never know. She doesn't have social

363
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Speaker 2: media or a phone, but you just never know kids

364
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Speaker 2: at school or what she's going to hear. I just

365
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 2: thought it'd be good in case she had any questions.

366
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Speaker 2: And I've never really told her in more depth other

367
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 2: than like a concubine or my parents gave me away

368
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Speaker 2: when it happened. So we went booked a two hour

369
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Speaker 2: session like back to back Sweeden have time, So my

370
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,880
Speaker 2: therapist met with her first just to get to know where,

371
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Speaker 2: which was wonderful. And then I went in there as well,

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Speaker 2: and she had me start from the beginning to tell

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Speaker 2: Frankie kind of what my childhood was like, which I've

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Speaker 2: never even thought to do that. I thought it was

375
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 2: great because it's her history too, you know, even though

376
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 2: were grandparents did terrible things, just to know what my

377
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 2: life was like as a kid. Then of course we

378
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 2: got to the point where we met Victor and then

379
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 2: us moving to Minnesota, and I was telling the story

380
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Speaker 2: of how my mom had her siblings come through our

381
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Speaker 2: house and say to them, oh, you know, all the

382
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 2: pictures on the walls. If you want the frames, you know,

383
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 2: take them. They were really nice frames. She would always

384
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: it was all of us as kids. She would get

385
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 2: our pictures done at Olind Mills every year or a

386
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 2: couple times a year. And one of them said, oh, Peggy,

387
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 2: don't you want the pictures? And She's like, no, I'm

388
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Speaker 2: not taking them. And Frankie looked up and she's like,

389
00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 2: why didn't your mom love her kids? And like you

390
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 2: were just saying, hearing from a child's perspective. I looked

391
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 2: at my therapist and tears started falling. I just never

392
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 2: thought of that before. You know, like I've heard the story.

393
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 2: I've told that story, but hearing it from a ten

394
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: year old's perspective, and also knowing she thought that it

395
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 2: was such a foreign concept to her because she'll never

396
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 2: know that kind of she'll always be loved, she'll never

397
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 2: know that kind of feeling of not being wanted by me.

398
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 2: That was an emotional for me moment hearing that from her.

399
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like Frankie has allowed you to even

400
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: see things differently or recognize things in your past that

401
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: you didn't even kind of see before because maybe you're

402
00:25:53,200 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: used to it. Has Frankie heard any of this? No,

403
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: have you now?

404
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 2: And boy, she has asked so many times, Oh mommy,

405
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: let me listen to fifteen minutes. It'll be fine. I

406
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 2: can handle it. No, I can tell her. I'm like,

407
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 2: you know some I've read this book by Corey ten Boom. Once.

408
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 2: She was a lady who hid Jews during the Holocaust

409
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 2: and she went to Auschwitz when she was little. She

410
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 2: told a story she asked her dad a question, and

411
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 2: her dad they were getting off a train and he

412
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 2: pulled the luggage down and he said, Corey, can you

413
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 2: lift this? And she couldn't, and he said, sometimes some

414
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 2: knowledge is too heavy for people to carry, so let

415
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 2: me carry it for now. So I always use that

416
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 2: with Frankie now, just to give her like a visual.

417
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 2: So I just tell her, let Mommy carry it for now,

418
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 2: and when you're older and it's time, then we'll talk

419
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 2: about it or listen to it. Yeah, but she tries.

420
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 2: She's tried to ask.

421
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, what a beautiful visual too, or way of communicating that.

422
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, She's been so great though, I mean, we're really good.

423
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 2: There's a like a few things that have happened. Well,

424
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 2: she had a birthday party to go to right after

425
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: school ended, and it was a pool party and like

426
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 2: a bunch of her friends are going to be there,

427
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 2: so she told me drop me off for a little

428
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 2: bit and then come back to get me. So I

429
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 2: was like, okay, we get there, and it turned out

430
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: that she was one of two people who had responded

431
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 2: that nobody else was going to be there. So she

432
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 2: still told me, She's like, well, maybe leave for an

433
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 2: hour and come back. So I started walking to my

434
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 2: car and I just got this feeling that I should stay.

435
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 2: And I was like, all right, I'll grab my water

436
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 2: and go back in, and all of a sudden, I

437
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: heard footsteps running up behind me, and I turn around

438
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 2: and Frankie's running at me, crying, asking me to stay,

439
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: please stay, I don't want to be alone, Please stay,

440
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 2: and I'm like absolutely, I'm just grabbing my water and

441
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 2: I'm coming in later. On the way home, we're driving

442
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 2: and she at one point just quietly says, I'm sorry

443
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 2: that I made you stay with me, and I you know,

444
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 2: when you have like a moment, and it's the moment

445
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 2: is like a second, but it's like a million things

446
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 2: go on in your mind. And that split second, I

447
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 2: immediately thought of my mom not being there for me,

448
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: you know, just and feeling like why would she even apologize?

449
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:35,719
Speaker 2: Why would Frankie feel a need to put And I

450
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 2: looked at her and I was like, Frankie, of course

451
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: I stayed. You know, like I'm your mother. I would

452
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 2: never want to put you in a situation where you

453
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable, like I will always be there for you.

454
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: You never have to apologize to me for staying or

455
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: being with you. And that was it. It was just

456
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: like then we went on and I again, I'm a crier.

457
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 2: I dropped a couple tears, but just not out of sadness.

458
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: For me, it was out of just thankfulness knowing that

459
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: again she'll never feel that kind of abandonment or having

460
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 2: to apologize for her parent staying with her and caring

461
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 2: for her.

462
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: It was.

463
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 2: There's been like little moments like that. I think that

464
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: since the podcast has come out, I'm able to see

465
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: things even clearer, whether it's to me and Frankie or

466
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 2: even in my life. So I think that's just been

467
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 2: really good.

468
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like what you've been through. Although I mean

469
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,479
Speaker 1: it's so much and you shouldn't have had to go

470
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: through it, it informs how you're actually living day to day,

471
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: how you're parenting, how you're navigating life. Yeah. I feel

472
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: like something you repeated many times is I just want

473
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: to tell my story. I just want to get it

474
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,719
Speaker 1: out there in hopes that it can help other people

475
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: or bring more awareness, or just so some people don't

476
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: feel alone and like it's out there now.

477
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad. Somebody did reach out to me

478
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 2: maybe a few weeks ago and said that they were

479
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 2: also a survivor of sexual assault. And I remember when

480
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: I first, like the media went public in twenty fourteen,

481
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 2: I was getting so many messages, and at that point

482
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 2: I hadn't had Frankie yet because she was born in

483
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 2: summer of twenty fourteen. And then some of it I was,

484
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: you know, just a new mom, probably a postpartum I

485
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: don't even think I knew what that was back then,

486
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 2: but I didn't respond to anyone just because I was

487
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: so overwhelmed. But this time I knew that if anyone

488
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 2: did reach out, I wanted to reach back out, and

489
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: so I did and tried to say some words of encouragement,

490
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 2: asking if they had a support group, if they needed

491
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 2: any resources, and it was great. They you know, messaged

492
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 2: back and I recommended a book to them and they

493
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 2: were like, oh, yeah, I've been meaning to read that

494
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: but haven't yet. So it was just this is what

495
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 2: I wanted from this, you know, if people reach out

496
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 2: being the state of mind that I'm at, the healing

497
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 2: that I've done, being ready and able to do that,

498
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: and hopefully there'll be more. I was hoping for more

499
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 2: opportunities to open, and it looks like some will, so

500
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: that's really exciting. So yeah, I'm really thankful.

501
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: Maybe this is a weird question, but do you have

502
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: any thoughts about what you think Victor would think if

503
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: he were to hear your story like this in full.

504
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: I mean, he's obviously in prison at an undisclosed location.

505
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that?

506
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: Oh? I mean I could see him thinking that he

507
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: talked so much about the persecution, you know, and the

508
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 2: end times when we were younger, and I could see

509
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: him that this is just more of like persecution and

510
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 2: me not sticking to my vows and you know that

511
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 2: my place in heaven is going to be less. I

512
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 2: could see him going that route. I don't really know

513
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 2: how he views like himself, if he still thinks he's chosen,

514
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 2: because I from what I've kind of heard, I don't

515
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: even know if he has any supporters left. I don't know,

516
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: or does he feel shame at all? Does he feel

517
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 2: that he did do these things? And it's hard. I

518
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: don't really know what.

519
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: He would think. Yeah. Also, maybe that's a weird question

520
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: to even ask or to put that on you. I mean,

521
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: in a way, it's kind of like who cares? Yeah,

522
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: But it is also just like an interesting thought, Yeah,

523
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: like is he still under this delusion or this belief?

524
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the last things I heard about him too,

525
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: is he wasn't really with it in his mind? So

526
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 2: is he even with it enough to hear this or

527
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 2: make sense of it. I don't know.

528
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: I just wonder in that period when he was arrested

529
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: and then in prison, even a waiting trial, what did

530
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: Victor tell his followers? Or maybe you don't know because

531
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: like you weren't among them. But considering you know, even

532
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: when you talk to Peggy, your mom, and she said

533
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: mistakes were made, so on some level, maybe she was

534
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: acknowledging something happened. And then even in the prison recordings,

535
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: Victor acknowledged to some degree that he had done something wrong,

536
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: or he had made mistakes or something. What do you

537
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: think he was telling his followers? Do you think he

538
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: ever really acknowledged to them what he had done? I mean,

539
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: obviously he pled guilty, but did he just kind of

540
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: avoided but kind of acknowledged maybe something happened.

541
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that when it came out that he was

542
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: sleeping with the married women, he shared it in a

543
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 2: way that made you feel bad for him. He had

544
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 2: been tempted, and just like David with the Bathsheba, you

545
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 2: know that story in the Bible. So maybe it was

546
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 2: along those lines. I did speak with somebody who was

547
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: also grew up in the cult, and he shared with

548
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 2: me that during that time, he did admit to everyone

549
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 2: that he did those things to Jess and I, but

550
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 2: only Jess and I. But I don't know. Again, you know,

551
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: it could have been shared from a place where you

552
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: feel bad for him instead of actually recognizing that well

553
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 2: one he did it to. You're telling me only two

554
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 2: of the maidens. I mean, come on, take the blinders

555
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: off people. Yeah, so that was news. I just fought

556
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 2: that out not too long ago. But again, even he

557
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 2: was like, I mean, was it really repentance. No, So

558
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 2: he may have just admitted to that to maybe help

559
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 2: people be like, Okay, well, Lindsay and Jess are like

560
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 2: speaking these evil things and you know Victor did do it,

561
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 2: but the blood of the Lamb covers also, just like

562
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 2: they've said to all of us so many times before.

563
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 2: So I don't know that he Yeah, I don't think

564
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 2: if he did share anything, it was out of like

565
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 2: a true repentant heart. It was probably just okay, I

566
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 2: did it. I'm gonna probably be going to jail, But

567
00:35:29,520 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 2: in a way where you would still feel badly for him.

568
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: Another question that I've actually gotten from people is just

569
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: about what people knew at the time, which in a

570
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: way is part of the crux of the story, And

571
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: ultimately it comes back to the question of kind of like,

572
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: how could this have happened? But what do you think

573
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: people in the group knew at the time or could

574
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: have deduced at the time as far as the abuse

575
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: that was happening.

576
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 2: I personally will never not think that they didn't know,

577
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: especially the elders, the parents of the maidens, the ones

578
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:49,399
Speaker 2: who lived at the camp. I mean, I don't know.

579
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: I have a very hard time believing it, and I

580
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 2: truly just think that if they still claim, oh I

581
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 2: didn't know or I thought something was going on, but

582
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 2: I think that they just don't want to admit because

583
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 2: that is I mean, if you admit it, then you

584
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 2: are saying that you took part in it. To knowing

585
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 2: and not doing anything and the abuse of those girls happening,

586
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: how do you then live with yourself? I've always said

587
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 2: that about my parents. If they really truly did admit

588
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 2: what was happening, I don't know that they would be

589
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 2: able to like, how do you continue to go on?

590
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 2: Because knowing that, oh, my gosh, I let my daughter

591
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: be raped by that man over all those years, and

592
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: I knowingly gave her away, and when she was thirteen,

593
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: he would wait till she was eighteen. Like, I just

594
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 2: think there's too many red flags. And these people, it's

595
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 2: not like they grew up in occult either. That's I mean,

596
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 2: most of them had normal upbringings as children and in

597
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 2: their families. And I know some people still give that excuse, well,

598
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 2: they didn't really know, and I've never been one to

599
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 2: buy into that. I just don't think that's true.

600
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: That's a really interesting point you're making about how part

601
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: of it might be how they're sort of rewriting their

602
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,919
Speaker 1: past now or how Yeah, as soon as they admit that,

603
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: then there are all these other consequences. So whether they're

604
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: telling themselves that or telling others that, it could be

605
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: that they're just not willing to go there.

606
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: No, definitely, And I mean Victor would travel in nineteen

607
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 2: ninety nine. It started, I believe he would travel to

608
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 2: different locations with his camper, and generally it was then

609
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 2: the girls who became the maidens us taking care of him,

610
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 2: who were assigned to, you know, bring him coffee or

611
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: help him with his notes or things like that. So

612
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 2: I just don't buy it. I honestly don't anyone who

613
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: was close to Victor or lived at the camp that

614
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. I just don't believe it. I still

615
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 2: think it would be great to talk with like a

616
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:11,280
Speaker 2: brainwashing expert or you know, somebody who has who's studied

617
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 2: that really well, who knows it, because I know I've

618
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 2: heard that a lot. Oh they were brainwashed, and but

619
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: again I I don't know. I don't buy into that either.

620
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 2: My mother was very smart, she went to college. She

621
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 2: people always say, oh, she was smart as a whip.

622
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 2: She had so much going for her. But the fact

623
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 2: that even when we moved to the camp and she

624
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 2: wanted to put on her wedding dress when we got there,

625
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 2: it just shows me she knew what she was doing.

626
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 2: She wasn't just some brainwashed idiot who was going there

627
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 2: like Ladi Da She. I don't know, what does that

628
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 2: show to you? To me, it shows that she knew

629
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 2: that she was making a commitment to move to Minnesota

630
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 2: to join herself to Victor. The Fall before a Tabernacles

631
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight, Victor had taken off his wedding ring

632
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 2: and done the church is married to Jesus Christ. They're

633
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 2: the bride of Christ. I'm taking off my wedding ring

634
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 2: representing that. So her pinting on her wedding dress signified.

635
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 2: I mean, what I can imagine now was her showing

636
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 2: that we're moving here, we're committing our lives to living

637
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 2: for the hope for Jesus Christ with you. She knew

638
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 2: what she was doing, So for me, it's bad excuses.

639
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 2: I hear it mostly with my mother. She wasn't in

640
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 2: the right mind. She did know what she was doing.

641
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: She was brainwashed. I just I don't believe it. And

642
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 2: you're telling me that happened that fast. I don't know

643
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 2: how long brainwashing takes to work. What we were living

644
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 2: out in the like regular world, you know, like regular people.

645
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 2: November of ninety eight, we moved there by the summer

646
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 2: of ninety nine. You're having me sleep in a camper

647
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 2: with him. I just doesn't make sense in my mind. Yeah,

648
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,399
Speaker 2: I mean, how could you be so far gone that

649
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 2: you don't see any red flags and don't say anything

650
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 2: and maybe fear. I mean my dad did say that

651
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 2: at one point he was afraid to get kicked out,

652
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: so we didn't say anything, But then I mean, that's

653
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 2: a choice that you made. You decided to live by

654
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 2: fear instead of being a parent and doing what's right

655
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 2: and getting your kid and family out of there. So

656
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: even if people say, oh, yeah, they were brainwashed, well,

657
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 2: there's still consequences to actions, like you still have to

658
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 2: admit to what you did and take accountability and.

659
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

660
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 2: We've been talking about my parents a lot in therapy.

661
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 2: We've been talking about the history of them, what they

662
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: were like is I was a child, to see if

663
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 2: we could put any pieces together of why they did

664
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 2: what they did. I was sharing how my mom she

665
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 2: actually admitted at an Amway conference that she was an alcoholic.

666
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 2: I didn't know that until after i'd left the cull,

667
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 2: but I'd remembered in second grade, I was in charge

668
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: of getting myself up, making my lunch, and getting myself

669
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 2: on the bus while my mom would still be sleeping,

670
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 2: and I didn't know that she was drunk. But there

671
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 2: were times that I would miss the bus because I

672
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 2: got busy watching cartoons and second grade, you're, what seven,

673
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 2: so really young to be responsible for all that, And

674
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 2: I'd go up there and try to wake her, and

675
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 2: she'd tell me to go to the neighbors, to have

676
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 2: the neighbor drive me to school. And then you know,

677
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: just how things change. The more babies came along, the

678
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 2: less things she had planned for us, the more we

679
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 2: had to play with ourselves. And so the therapist was like,

680
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: maybe the five kids it was almost too much for her.

681
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 2: Not that that's an excuse, you know, for a parent,

682
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 2: But then when Victor made it available for you to

683
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 2: go to the camp, it was one less child for

684
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: her to deal with. Basically in a way, which I

685
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 2: mean could be it, I don't really know.

686
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, in a way it's hard to ever really understand. Yeah,

687
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: we all soo talked with Krista Lester Pitch, who was

688
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 1: basically born into River Road Fellowship. She wasn't a maiden,

689
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: but you know, it was a part of the group.

690
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: What was it like hearing her story or her perspective.

691
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: Hearing some of what she had to go through was sad.

692
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 2: It just confirmed again the abuse that was happening on

693
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 2: all different levels, not just you know, being raped, but

694
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 2: as far as being shamed and the control and the

695
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 2: mind games. And I think I'd never really heard of

696
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 2: someone's perspective on the maidens from when we were there,

697
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 2: like a younger girl, what they thought of us. So

698
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 2: hearing or say that what the maidens wore, we kind

699
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 2: of became like, oh, well I want that, And just

700
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 2: how much we were in a sense idolized. I was like,

701
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 2: I think I knew maybe like we were put on

702
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 2: a pedestal, but I didn't know that that was the

703
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 2: reaction that people we're having towards us. And it was

704
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: crazy to hear because she was saying all those things

705
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 2: and almost how our life looked great from the outside,

706
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 2: you know, from her perspective, able to do all those

707
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 2: things when and then knowing what I was really going through, Yeah,

708
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 2: that was like, oh my gosh. But then you're thinking, oh,

709
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 2: I want this pattern, but you had no idea what

710
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 2: was happening behind the scenes, just how you know it

711
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 2: must have been portrayed to other people of how our lives.

712
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: Were, and yeah, what was really going on.

713
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 2: I would say that was like a little hard to

714
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 2: listen to because knowing that that's how people probably viewed us.

715
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 2: But really at the time I probably was screaming on

716
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: the inside to like leave and being verbally abused, raped mentally,

717
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 2: you know, like all the things every single day, and

718
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: then everyone on the outside was like, oh, well, I

719
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 2: want to be a maiden or I want to wear

720
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 2: what they're wearing or their hair like they have it,

721
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,959
Speaker 2: And yeah, that was hard.

722
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sorry that you had to experience that.

723
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 2: Oh it's okay. It was just hearing it from a

724
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 2: different perspective, you know that that's what probably other people thought.

725
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I can also imagine it's different when it's

726
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: a girl who's younger than you, who was born into

727
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: the group. That's her reaction at the time, you know,

728
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: she's a child as well, versus what I can imagine

729
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: the perspective of the adults was, you know what I mean,

730
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: like she had always been a kid in a way,

731
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: like didn't know any better, you know what I mean.

732
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really glad she was able to leave. And

733
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 2: I messaged her after hearing episode eight, just saying that

734
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 2: her kids are so lucky to have her and just

735
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 2: her like love for them, and I'm really glad she

736
00:45:55,080 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 2: was able to get out of there and start her life.

737
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 1: What's life like for you now?

738
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 2: It's good. Life is going really well. I am like

739
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 2: working on a few things, which has been really exciting.

740
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 2: A couple essays that I'm going to submit to a

741
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 2: couple different columns and have been in touch with a

742
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 2: book agent. That's been really exciting. And I want to

743
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 2: have a platform I want to do. If anyone wants

744
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 2: to have me speak at anything, I'd love to. But yeah,

745
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 2: I want to do more speaking engagements. There's so much

746
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 2: to tell. I think I definitely need to work on

747
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 2: exactly like what my message would be, or like what

748
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 2: topics i'd want to talk about, because you could go

749
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 2: in so many different directions with this, and I know, yeah, yeah,

750
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 2: seeing some of these come to fruition or being worked

751
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,280
Speaker 2: on is amusing.

752
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 1: That's exciting. I'm really glad that you're feeling good in

753
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: general about it all and that you feel like you

754
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: have some exciting things on the horizon. That's great.

755
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Other than that, it's like the you know, being

756
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 2: a single mom, you never have a day off. So

757
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if I should limit that

758
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 2: to single moms because parents they always have but they

759
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 2: always are on, you know, for their kids, but it

760
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 2: just falls everything falls on me.

761
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're allowed to say, Okay, the single

762
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: mom thing is a lot.

763
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's just a lot of we're thick and

764
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 2: already started school and all sports. I'm so excited. Frankie

765
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 2: is barrel racing in her first rodeo in September, which

766
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 2: whoa I know makes me so thankful when I found

767
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 2: in her journal when we first moved to Texas in

768
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,919
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, we went to our first rodeo here

769
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 2: and I had found later that she had written, my

770
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 2: mom took me to a rodeo tonight and I saw

771
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 2: barrel racing, and I know that that's what I want

772
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 2: to do. She was eight at the time.

773
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: Pause. Wait, I don't know what barrel racing is.

774
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 2: Oh, what is that. It's where they come out of

775
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 2: the chute riding the horse relief. It's in an arena.

776
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 2: They have three barrels set up almost like in a triangle.

777
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 2: So you come out of the chute and there's a

778
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 2: barrel a little bit further down on the right, one

779
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 2: on the left, and then way down in the middle.

780
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 2: So you race around the barrels in a pattern and

781
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 2: get timed. So she fell in love with it and

782
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 2: she started riding. And the girl that we're riding with now,

783
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 2: her trainer, is absolutely amazing. She's so well connected, so

784
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:50,280
Speaker 2: generous with her time with Frankie, and so yeah, she's

785
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 2: able to ride in her first rodeo. I looked at

786
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 2: her the other day and I was like, do you

787
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: ever think about the rodeo coming up? And this is

788
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 2: like an dream come true of yours? She's like yeah

789
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 2: all the time. And it made me so happy because

790
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like I relate everything back to

791
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 2: what I didn't have, which I guess would say okay,

792
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 2: because I'm like, in a thankfulness type of way, I

793
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 2: didn't have that from my parents, and so it just

794
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 2: made me so thankful that I'm at a place in

795
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 2: my life where I can give her these things and

796
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 2: support her. So that's really exciting for her and for me.

797
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 1: That is amazing. That is so cool that Frankie's doing that. Yeah,

798
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:36,760
Speaker 1: I'm very impressed.

799
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:41,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's great. And she's in drill team through school,

800
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 2: so that's exciting. She has her first dance at the

801
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 2: Frisco Roughriders game in August the end of August here,

802
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 2: so that's exciting. Yeah, It's just I feel like my

803
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 2: life really revolves around her right now. It's just that stage,

804
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,439
Speaker 2: you know, which is fine. I love it like I'm

805
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 2: totally here for it. I'm going to blink and she's

806
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 2: going to be off to college, so I'm just trying

807
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 2: to really savor it all.

808
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

809
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, so honestly not like a ton of stuff I'm

810
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 2: doing for myself Other than therapy writing, I've started on

811
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 2: some more reading.

812
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 1: You sound pretty busy.

813
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 2: Yeah to me, yes, really busy. And I honestly don't

814
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 2: mind hanging out with Frankie, which sounds weird, but you know,

815
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 2: I mean I hear some parents like, ugh, like complain

816
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 2: about their kids, and yes, you know, we have our

817
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,879
Speaker 2: arguments and stuff, but the majority of the time it's

818
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,280
Speaker 2: tons of laughs and even grocery shopping together is fun

819
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:45,359
Speaker 2: and I just love having her around. So it's good.

820
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 2: It's a good season of life.

821
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,720
Speaker 1: I love that. Mm hm, Well, is there anything else

822
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: you wanted to say in response to everything?

823
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 2: Or I'm just so thankful for you in Erica and

824
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 2: the whole team, the whole team please, like you probably have,

825
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 2: but just my thanks to everyone who's worked on this.

826
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,800
Speaker 2: I'm really thankful that you guys helped make this a reality,

827
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 2: and I mean that's one thing.

828
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: Just very thankful for you guys, Really thank you, Lindsey

829
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 1: for taking the time to really just open up and

830
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: be so vulnerable to share your story, and also thanks

831
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 1: for talking with me today too.

832
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 2: My gosh, I was so excited.

833
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been too long.

834
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 2: It's been too long. Yeah, I'm so glad we were

835
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 2: able to do this.

836
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: The Tuning is a production of for Cocoa Punch and

837
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts. It's written and produced by Erica Lance and me.

838
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 1: Our story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed

839
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 1: by James Trout. Grace Doe is our production assistant. Fact

840
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: checking by Andrea Lopez Cruzado. Our executive producers are John

841
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:14,800
Speaker 1: Piratti and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch and Katrina Norvella

842
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: Nikki e Tour at iHeart Podcasts. You can follow us

843
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Rococo Punch, and you can reach out

844
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 1: via email The Turning at Rococo punch dot com. I'm

845
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: Alan Lance lessor thanks for listening.