1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Body dams. But Joseph scotten More, I've seen a lot 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: of inner city poverty over the course of my years 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,119 Speaker 1: working as a death investigator. It's part and parcel of 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: what you do, and you have to understand that it's 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: many people's reality. People say that they know what it's 6 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: like to be poor, but there's being poor and then 7 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 1: there's impoverished, kind of a hopelessness set to in. As 8 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: I'm speaking to you right now, I'm looking at a photograph. 9 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: It's a photograph of a home, an abandoned home in 10 00:00:50,440 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: a rough neighborhood in Toledo, Ohio, and there is scribbling 11 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: on the wall, graffiti, if you will, and around the 12 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: home there are also balloons that have been placed there 13 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: to form a small memorial for a young lady that 14 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: is no longer with us. And just let me tell 15 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: you what the graffiti says. It says, you let them 16 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: silence her c SB, where's your accountability her life matter? 17 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body backs, Dave. 18 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: There's just some of these cases that really tug at 19 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: our heartstrings, and this is one of them. There are 20 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: varying degrees of horror with this case. It's you know 21 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: the old adage about going down the rabbit hole, It's 22 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: like the deeper you go down the rabbit hole, it's 23 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: a descend into hades almost with what happened to this 24 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 1: young girl. And I'm talking about a young lady. She's 25 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: thirteen years old, she's a child. Her name was Kamanie Letigue, 26 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: and she's from the Toledo, Ohio area. And to say 27 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: that she had had had it rough growing up is 28 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: certainly an understatement. We cover cases like this regularly, but 29 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: I think that it's very important that every time one 30 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: of these cases comes up, we need to talk about 31 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: it because this is the real stuff that's out there. 32 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: This is what not just adults. This is what children 33 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: are going through right now. And boy did she She 34 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,839 Speaker 1: wound up pain a bill that she did not owe 35 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: to anybody, and it is pure hell. 36 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 2: Kimani Lettigue you mentioned, is thirteen years old and is missing. 37 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 2: That's when her story begins. In terms of the media, 38 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: and whenever you have a child missing, the first thing 39 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 2: you do is you nowadays you look at the home, 40 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: who was in the home, who lived there, who did 41 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 2: she live with? Now and Kamanie Leatigue, her life situation. 42 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 2: She lived with her grandmother, Dorothy, and Dorothy was her 43 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 2: Kamani's primary caregiver. And yet her mother, Kamanie's mother and 44 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 2: father biological father were both involved in her life. But 45 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,399 Speaker 2: to what degree, We're not entirely sure, because you never 46 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: know who to believe in any circumstances. But Kamanie Letigue 47 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 2: at thirteen lived with her grandmother, Dorothy, and her grandmother 48 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 2: worked overnight. Her grandmother went to work ten o'clock at night, 49 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: got home at six in the morning. And that's kind 50 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 2: of We've got a couple of different stories like this, okay, 51 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: that where a girl goes missing or a young person 52 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 2: goes missing. And I'm going to be honest with you, 53 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 2: at thirteen, a child is a child and not old 54 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 2: enough to be left atlone overnight. You don't leave a 55 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 2: child alone overnight until they're old enough to drive. And 56 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 2: that's just and by the way, it's just a Dave macrule. 57 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 2: And I agree with you. I agree, And I just 58 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 2: have a real problem with this. I know others speel differently, 59 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 2: but I'm just saying that's how I think. But in 60 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 2: her case, and I know I always hear whenever I 61 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: say something like that, you don't understand the circumstances. Yeah, 62 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 2: I do. I do understand the circumstances, and I will 63 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: tell you can make good choices whether you're rich or poor, 64 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,559 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. Good choices don't have a price tag. 65 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 2: If you're going to be held accountable and responsible for 66 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 2: a child, then and you've accepted that responsibility, you owe 67 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 2: it to the child to make sure that you're taking 68 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 2: care of them. And there are no excuses that I'll 69 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 2: buy just just a personal thing. 70 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 1: But I agree with you and personal. You know, the 71 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 1: thing about it is these choices. There's you know, it 72 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: doesn't matter if you're Richard poy you you know you 73 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: you plugged in economics to this and I'm thinking, well, 74 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: that investment in making good choices you reap dividends in 75 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: the end. And this is where, in my opinion, everyone 76 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: failed as child all up and down the line. You know, 77 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: from what I have gathered given her background, there been 78 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: there were multiple reports of potential child abuse involving Kamani. 79 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: She allegedly had marks on her body that were viewed UH. 80 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: There were teachers that had alerted the workers at child 81 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: Welfare Services and by the way, that comment about CBS 82 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: that that was scribbled on the wall outside of this home, 83 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: which we'll talk about in a bit. That's that's actually 84 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: the acronym for the local Child Welfare Services. 85 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 2: But look, Joe, from the very beginning, the story begins 86 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 2: with her going missing, and whatever happens after that is 87 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 2: what This is one of the stories where it's we're 88 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 2: covering it because it needs to be covered. People need 89 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 2: to know this happens. But this is a new low. 90 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 2: Every time I think we have mined the bottom of 91 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 2: the pit, we end up with another shovelful. And here 92 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: it is Kamanie Letty goes missing and her grandmother, Dorothy 93 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 2: comes home from work and she is just the two 94 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 2: of them that live in the house. They do have 95 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: a dog, but just Kamani thirteen Dorothy grandma Kimmani's grandmother 96 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 2: sees her the night of March sixteenth when she's leaving 97 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 2: to go to work that night. When her grandmother comes 98 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 2: home from work that morning of March seventeenth, Kimani is gone. 99 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 2: So her grandmother immediately starts calling around and notifies police 100 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 2: because when she comes home the door is unlocked. That's 101 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: not a normal thing. The house was in disarray, not 102 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 2: a normal thing. The stove was on and she could 103 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 2: smell gas, not something that would normally happen. Kimanie's keys 104 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: and glasses were still at the house. But the girl 105 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 2: can't see without her glasses, Joe, So Dorothy knows this 106 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 2: is something really bad. Dorothy even had this comment about 107 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 2: the gas being left on. She said, other than her 108 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: and I, it's just two dogs in the house. So 109 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 2: who cut it on talking about the gas? So that 110 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 2: was kind of suspicious. Her glasses in her underclothes were 111 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 2: by the couch in the front. Her pajamas were on 112 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: the dining room floor. Now, pay attention to what she's 113 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: saying there. Her glasses in her underclothes were by the 114 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 2: couch in the front, her pajamas were on the dining 115 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 2: room floor. Yeah, what does that tell you about what 116 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 2: she was wearing, Joe. 117 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: Well, obviously prepped for bed. If we're talking about pj's. 118 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: The fact that you've got a young a young teen 119 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: like this is highly unusual. You know, you can't envision them, 120 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: you know, bouncing about the house nude. Not that you 121 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: would want to, but the fact that she's apparently naked 122 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: and wandering about the house is disturbing, she's already gotten 123 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 1: ready for bed. I would think that, you know, as 124 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: an investigator, you would ask the question, well, did she 125 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: Is it normal in your household for this thirteen year 126 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: old girl to disrobe in the living room where perhaps 127 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: they could be seen by a pass or by anybody, 128 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: could you know, perhaps walk in. Is that something that 129 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: is normal? Then you would want to look and as 130 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: troubling as this might be, you would look at the 131 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: clothing to see, well, maybe she had an accident, maybe 132 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: you know, she wet herself, maybe she had, you know, 133 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: some type of intestinal problem, or maybe she's injured in 134 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: some way. Is there any any remnant of blood on 135 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: the clothing, you know, the underwear, the pjs, because you're 136 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: talking about two separate locations. You're talking about the pj's 137 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: being in the adjacent area, and then you're talking about 138 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:54,719 Speaker 1: the underwear near the sofa, and with the sofa, one 139 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: of the things you're thinking about if this child is 140 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: absent her underwear, are we thinking about a sex attack 141 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: here at this point in time where the perpetrator, assuming 142 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: that this is a male, had made her disrobe or 143 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: had ripped her clothing off and then assaulted her there 144 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: on the sofa in the living room. There are a 145 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: lot of people that sleep on their sofas, Okay, there 146 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: are a lot of people that do a lot of 147 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: other things on their sofas as well. But you know, 148 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: this scene in and of itself would have been perfect 149 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: to go in and examine for trace evidence on that sofa. 150 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: Try to understand first off, if there's any biological substances, 151 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 1: and one of the things I'm thinking about are two 152 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,719 Speaker 1: of the things I'm thinking about are obviously blood and 153 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: any kind of seminal deposition. We've got two females living 154 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: in this home, and according to the grandmother, they are 155 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: seeing the occupants of this home. You would not expect 156 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: to find say, remnant of smen, you know, on the sofa. 157 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: If it is, I've got a lot of If it 158 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: is there, I've got a lot of questions. Was the 159 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: grandmother involved with anybody? We wouldn't think that a thirteen 160 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: year old would be involved. I'd want to know again 161 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: examining the underwear, was there any kind of deposition within 162 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: the underwear relative to this as well? So this would 163 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: have to be handled very very carefully. Also within the house, 164 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: I know that you had mentioned, Dave that the door 165 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: was open, But we don't really know if there was 166 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: a sign of a forced entry here, do we no? 167 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 2: And that's here's the interesting well, no, not just the 168 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 2: interesting part. There's a lot here, a lot to unpack, 169 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 2: as you say, or as Nancy says, the uh. And 170 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 2: by the way, the reason we mentioned Nancy, it's Nancy Grace. 171 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:52,719 Speaker 2: That's who we're talking about. That's how Joe and I 172 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 2: got to know one another by being on her show, 173 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 2: and I work on her show on a daily basis 174 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 2: as they do body bags. I'm very proud of the 175 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 2: work we do because I think we're making a difference 176 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 2: at how people consider watching after children in particular, which 177 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 2: is why every time we do a story about a child, 178 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 2: a thirteen year old that goes missing, I feel like 179 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: I'm more aware of the children in my neighborhood. I'm 180 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 2: more aware of their schedules. Now. I am more than 181 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 2: I was a few years ago when my children were 182 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 2: of that age, because now I know what's normal in 183 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 2: my neighborhood, what takes you know, and in this case, 184 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 2: what we do know. We know that the door was 185 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 2: it was unlocked. That is not a normal occurrence. They 186 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 2: kept that door locked, so that's a start. Now we 187 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 2: don't know if there was forced entry, but we do 188 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 2: know a few other things. We know that the home 189 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 2: was in disarray. This is also something that Dorothy said 190 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 2: that was not common. And you can think about this. 191 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 2: Dorothy is a you know, as a grandmother teaching her 192 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 2: thirteen year old granddaughter how to act, how to behave, 193 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: how to keep your house in order kind of thing. 194 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 2: I can see that. You know that if it was 195 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 2: in disarray, this would be an unexpected occurrence. And the 196 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 2: gas being turned on the stove, there was a reason 197 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 2: for that, and we don't know that reason. But what 198 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 2: we do know is that when she goes missing, there's 199 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 2: no sign of Kimani anywhere, and the media is there 200 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 2: to cover it. And so Kimani's father, her biological father, 201 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: is there to talk about her, and he goes on 202 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 2: TV Joe and he is begging for somebody to share information. 203 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 2: His name is Darnell Jones. He also goes by Darnell Ogletree. 204 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 2: Darnell is thirty three years old and he is on 205 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 2: local television in Toledo saying, please help find my daughter. 206 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 2: But what we find out Joe, is that on that 207 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 2: night of March sixteenth into March seventeenth, when Kimani was 208 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 2: home on March sixteenth, her grandmother sar when she left 209 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 2: for work. Well, Darnell Jones says he got a call 210 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 2: from Kimani and she said she was scared being left 211 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 2: home alone. Would he come over? And so now we 212 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 2: know that Darnell Jones went to that house and took 213 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 2: a friend and he says they stayed there until about 214 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 2: twelve thirty. That's from her biological father, Darnell Jones. 215 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: Let me, let's unpack it a little bit here. We 216 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: are using that term again. One of the things that 217 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: stands out to me relative to this door that we 218 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: had mentioned, if it is not forced open. Many times 219 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: when you see a home where maybe there's been to 220 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: call it a home invasion is not necessarily accurate. But 221 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: when you have a door that has not been knocked 222 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: off the hinges or that the you know that it's 223 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: been kicked in adjacent to the door knob, you're thinking, well, 224 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: somebody had to open it from the inside or was 225 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: it ever locked at all? To gain fourth century? Well, 226 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: what do we think about that? If you and I, 227 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: let's just say our kids show up at the house. Okay, 228 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: our door is locked. You know. I can look out 229 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: my front window. I see when Noah arrives at our house, 230 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: and eagerly I hop up and go and lock the 231 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: door and open it for him, you know, because I'm 232 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: happy to see him, right And I don't there's no 233 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: threat there. Okay, I'm not talking to him through the door. 234 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: Can you please verify for me your id So one 235 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: of the first things that that's why we always talk 236 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: about fourth century and struggle. Now, I don't know that 237 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: we can classify this, and I would beg you to 238 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: please use that the term that the grandmother used one 239 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: more time. What did you say about the interior of 240 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: the house, that it was what it was? 241 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 2: In disarray? Yeah, I meaning it was a mess. 242 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a mess. And here's a term that I 243 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: don't know if you've heard in a while. The old 244 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: guys used to use it. That trained me. They'd love 245 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: to use the term rifling, and I'm not talking about ballistics. 246 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: They would use the term like rifled through objects or 247 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: personal belongings, or generally it applies to like paperwork, and 248 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: you know, people are rifling through things. You know when 249 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: you talk about in disarray, is it is it pose 250 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: like a purposed disarray where maybe you're using the items 251 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: in the house to threaten somebody with, maybe you're throwing things, 252 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: or is it can you frame it like drawers being 253 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: open and things tossed out because you're looking for valuables. 254 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: You know, it's a completely different way of looking at it. 255 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: You can get this. I love the term menacing and 256 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: how easy would it be think about it when you 257 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: are thirteen? How easy would it be for adult to 258 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: have menaced you. Being a death investigator, I'm giving pause 259 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: sometimes to think about where my physical body will wind up. 260 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: And I'm not necessarily talking about at a funeral home 261 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: or in a graveyard. You have these moments in time 262 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: where you think, well, might I die in my bed? 263 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: Might I be behind the wheel? Might not be at 264 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: my desk and suddenly struck by a heart attack or 265 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: a stroke. I can tell you what's not on my 266 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: bingo card. It's not a burned out house, abandoned, burned 267 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: out house with windows boarded up, the vinyl siding on 268 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 1: it curled because of the intense heat that ravaged the place. 269 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: That's not what I'm thinking and I can tell you this. 270 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: When Camani was born thirteen years ago, nobody was thinking 271 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: about that. I can guarantee you. But Dave got to 272 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: tell you, brother, that's where this angel wound up. 273 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 2: You know, when her dad went on TV and said 274 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 2: I was here, she called she was worried that some 275 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 2: man was trying to break in, or somebody was trying 276 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 2: to break in. You know as well as I do. 277 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 2: When the police heard that ding ding ding radars went up. 278 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 2: He's now put himself in that house during the time 279 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 2: we know she was taken, because we know Grandma was 280 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 2: there at ten on the night of the sixteenth. When 281 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 2: she came home early morning of the seventeenth, Kamani was gone. 282 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 2: And now we have dad on local TV saying, yeah, 283 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 2: I was there till about twelve thirty with a cousin 284 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 2: of mine. We stayed there. Now, as a father, well yeah, 285 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 2: I can't even identify with any situation with this, But 286 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 2: as a man, would you ever leave a thirteen year 287 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 2: old child afraid of being left alone? Would could you 288 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 2: possibly leave at twelve thirty at night with your thirteen 289 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 2: year old daughter saying she's scared? Hey, I don't know 290 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 2: A real man would. 291 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: There was no way under the sun that I would 292 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: do that. 293 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 2: So do you think the police bought that? 294 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: No, of course they didn't, and it didn't. It just 295 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: doesn't hold water, you know. If it's me and I 296 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: can only speak to me, all right, right, If I've 297 00:19:56,040 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: got a thirteen year old daughter, who is you know, 298 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: sitting there shaking and she's afraid that a man, a 299 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: man dave implying, a grown man exactly threatening her or 300 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: after her, do you think I'm going to pedal myself 301 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: out of that driveway and leave and not take her 302 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: with me, or at least, hey, baby, you go get 303 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: in your bed. I'm going to sit here on the 304 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 1: sofa and if you need anything, you just come back 305 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: in here. But I'm going to stay here until your 306 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: grandma gets back. 307 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 2: You know what else? 308 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: What else does he have to do? At twelve thirty, 309 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: we've already established haying at work. We do know that 310 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: per his girlfriend that he had muddy work boots. But 311 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: do you know what she says? She says, this is 312 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: a statement that she gave later, kind of bearing the 313 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: lead here, but she's she's like it worked, and I 314 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: don't know how long, you know, So it's not like 315 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: his dance card is full for the next morning. All right, 316 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 1: So you're telling me the universal you not you, Dave Mac. 317 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: You're telling me that your boy just rolls out of 318 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: there with a frightened thirteen year old daughter. And grandma 319 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: is still what if she's working, If she's working mids, 320 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: she's going in at ten, Yeah, until she ain't getting 321 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: off until six or seven, and then she's got to 322 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: commute back home. That's what you're trying to tell me, dude. 323 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: I'm not buying it. I am just not buying it. 324 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 2: And the thing is is that you know immediately when 325 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 2: when Grandma gets home on the seventeenth, they immediately begin 326 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 2: looking for Kimani. They're looking all over the neighborhood because again, 327 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 2: you're going to you're not going to jump to every 328 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 2: conclusion in the world. You're going to try to make 329 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 2: sense of this somehow. And they spent the entire day 330 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 2: of the seventeenth going door to door, friends, neighbors, community members, 331 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 2: did a search. They did a complete search of the 332 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 2: area before actually reporting missing, and she was technically legally 333 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 2: reported missing on the eighteenth. 334 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: Hey time, was the dad involved in the search for her? 335 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, he was. That's why he was on TV 336 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 2: right away. Please, I was there. You know she was 337 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 2: afraid of See he was already staging it. When he's 338 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 2: on TV, he's there saying I was with her till 339 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 2: twelve thirty because she was afraid somebody was trying to 340 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,719 Speaker 2: break in. So immediately we're not bearing the lead by 341 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 2: telling you that he's the guy we're looking at. But 342 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,959 Speaker 2: here's what actually happened, Joe. They found her body. They 343 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 2: found her body in a horrible place, and you're going 344 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 2: to have to describe what condition she was in when 345 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 2: they found her, because I've looked at it and I'm 346 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 2: trying to figure out how does one make sense of 347 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,479 Speaker 2: what happened to this missing thirteen year old Because between 348 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 2: the time that we know she's missing at the time 349 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 2: we find it, there's no you know, you're not getting 350 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 2: a letter in the mail, you know, with a ransom 351 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 2: saying I need twenty thousand dollars and you'll see her. 352 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: We're not getting any of that. We're not getting picked 353 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 2: is holding herround. I mean, she's missing until she's found, 354 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 2: and when she has found, she's found dead. Now, how 355 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 2: did they find her? What condition was her body in? 356 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 2: It boggles the mind. And what we're just going to 357 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 2: have to describe really had. 358 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: And let me give everybody a warning here because we're 359 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: going to talk about and I know that sounds weird 360 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 1: here on body bags, but I've got to tell you 361 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: there's a term that judges use many times, and it's 362 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: called this so shocks the conscience of the court. And 363 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 1: this shocked me. You know when I heard about the 364 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: nature of this case. I can't think of one right now, 365 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: even though we've had a lot of over the top 366 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: cases with a lot of forensics that you know, would 367 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,719 Speaker 1: make your blood chill. But you know that's that's one 368 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: of the ways we make it through it as investigators, 369 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 1: is that, uh, at least in my sense, is that 370 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: I try to look at things scientifically. Dave, It's hard 371 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: for me not to look at this as a dad, 372 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: it really is. It's uh, it's it makes me sick 373 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: to my back teeth. 374 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 2: And and I do want to add one quick thought. Yeah, 375 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 2: before they found her body, yes, the police had already 376 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: identified that her biological father, Darnell Jones Jarnell Ogletree, that 377 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: they wanted him for kidnapping. They had established that based 378 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 2: on what he had said, based on the what and 379 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: what they had pulled together, and so they were going 380 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 2: to they were trying to find him. Then he'd already 381 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 2: been on local TV saying, help me find my daughter. 382 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 2: And now he's our suspect. And they charged him with 383 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 2: abducting her before they found the body. 384 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, they charged him, but with kidnapping. They didn't have him. 385 00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: And but what we do have is Kimanie and day 386 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: when when she is found. As as aforementioned, Uh, this 387 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: it's a two story give you kind of the rundown. 388 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: It's a two story dwelling in in this particular neighborhood. 389 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: It's gray in color. Uh, and it's got vinyl siding. 390 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: And if you've never been to a fire scene, when 391 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 1: vinyl siding is involved, what happens is is that it 392 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: gets so hot, uh, the exterior heat, you know, the 393 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: heat that's been given off from inside. It's like laying 394 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: plastic on a you know, on like an oven surface. 395 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: It curls and that's that's what the vinyl siding does 396 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: in this particular case. So it kind of curls up 397 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: and you see this, uh, just kind of a further 398 00:25:54,520 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: paint this picture. You see this it's smoke with the 399 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: remnant of smoke and charring that has that you see 400 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: at the top of these windows downstairs. Now these windows 401 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: have been boarded up. They've been boarded up because his 402 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: house is probably an iesore in the community. It's gone 403 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: through a fire, the fire was knocked out. You see 404 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: this kind of scoring and staining of smoke at the 405 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: top of the window. And what's going on is it 406 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: looks like this fire whenever it did happen, started on 407 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: the bottom floor, because the top doesn't necessarily look as 408 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: bad as the bottom. And so as fire licks out 409 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: of a house, it's trying to get to the highest 410 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: point so they can grab oxygen and consume it. All right, 411 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: it's eating oxygen. And so many times when you go 412 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: out the house fires, you'll see this. I can only 413 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: imagine that when they made their way into this house 414 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: and they got up on that second floor landing and 415 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: they began to look around, I can almost guarantee you 416 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 1: there was a foloader, there was a fouloader. And that's 417 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: really hard to separate out because if you've ever been 418 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: around a fire like a bonfire, or maybe you've had 419 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: the unfortunate circumstances of having a house fire, that smell 420 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: is rather pervasive. But the one thing that will trump 421 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: that smell is decomposing bodies. You can get an idea 422 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: and then when it's commingled and blended. I don't know 423 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,959 Speaker 1: how much they were able to actually appreciate at the scene, 424 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: but when they found her little broken body, they discovered 425 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: that she had almost been completely decapitated because she had 426 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: multiple insized ones. I can go into that, but the 427 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 1: one thing are the two things that we're missing are 428 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: those elements of our anatomy that even when we're babies, 429 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,959 Speaker 1: we're exploring the world around us with You see, in 430 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: the case of Kimani, someone had taken the time to 431 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: not almost cut her head off, but they completely cut 432 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: both of her hands off. The when they did their 433 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: exam on Kimani, they determined that her cause of death, Dave, 434 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: was going to be these injuries to her neck. Now, 435 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: these are sharp force injuries, but they're not they're not 436 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: stab ones. Okay, these are incized ones. 437 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 2: And you're going to have to explain the difference, Joe, Yeah, 438 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 2: featuring in my head. 439 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, the knife. If you just think of a knife, 440 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: knives are inserted, that's a stab one. If a knife 441 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: or sharp object, sharp instrument, sharp weapon, it's called sharp 442 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: force injuries. If that blade is drug across a surface, 443 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: that's an incised one. Okay, I'll give it to you 444 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: in the most simple terms. If you've ever you know, 445 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: like myself, the idiot at large here, was ever cutting up. 446 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: I've done it many times on on onions because I 447 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: get careless with them. I want to put as much 448 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: distance between myself as possible in them as you're cutting them. 449 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: I've cut my fingers multiple times. I've cut myself in 450 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: the morgue dave through my glove and this happens a lot, 451 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: generally with a scalpel blade, but they're always I've never 452 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: stabbed myself. I've always cut myself. So these are in 453 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: sized wounds. That means that the surface, the leading edge 454 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: of that surface has been drug or pressed into the 455 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: underlying tissue, and so it creates these very very neat 456 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: what we refer to as neat margins. Because you're talking 457 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: about a milled edged weapon that it's not going to 458 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: be jagged, and a little primer here so that folks 459 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: will understand. Many times we will get out onto the scenes, 460 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: and we will see individuals that have been beaten to 461 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: death and they have lacerations. People in the emergency room 462 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: abbreviate that and they call them lax lac It's a laceration. 463 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: Make no mistake. A laceration is not a cut. Laceration 464 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: in the purest sense of the definition, comes about as 465 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: a result of blunt forced and so you will get 466 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: these weird looking, jagged injuries where the skin literally rips. Okay, 467 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: you'll get injuries where, uh you know, I even think 468 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: about like contact press contact gunshot wounds to the head 469 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: where the skin expands, and you'll get that stellate presentation 470 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: which looks like a star. That's actually a laceration because 471 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: the gas is expanding the skin. That's not what Kamani had. 472 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: Kimani actually had insized and apparently multiple insized ones. And 473 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:42,239 Speaker 1: they're not just it diminished, it diminishes the injuries that 474 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: she's sustained to her neck. By saying that her head 475 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: was almost cut off or she was almost decapitated, dave 476 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: to go through what we refer to as full thickness. 477 00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: If you're talking about you have superficial injuries that happened 478 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: with knives and knives in particular where you're talking about 479 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: full thickness. Most of the time doctor's forensic pathologists when 480 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: they use that term, that means that it will go 481 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: through the full thickness of the skin, epidermis, the dermas, 482 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: down through the subkey fat into the muscle. So that's 483 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: like a full thickness injury. If they're saying that she 484 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: was almost decapitated, that means that he had gotten down 485 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: to the bony structures with the sharp instrument that he 486 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: had used. And the first thing I'm thinking about is 487 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: the cervical spinal column. That he couldn't go through it 488 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: because probably all he had at his disposal was a knife. 489 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: Now I don't know that for certain. There could have 490 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: been other things, but one of the shocking things, one 491 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: just one of the shocking things relative to Camani's case, 492 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: is that both of her hands had been cut off. Now, 493 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: I've had cases like this, and I was actually in 494 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: a great presentation one time many years ago. This is 495 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: you know, you file this under how stupid are criminals? 496 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: A guy's body was actually found in a creek and 497 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: he had been both decapitated. They never found his head 498 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: and both of his hands had been cut off. The 499 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: idea that investigators came up with, well, they did that 500 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: in order to either delay or prevent the guy's identification, 501 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: you know, because you don't have teeth at that point 502 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: and you don't have hands to do prints with. The 503 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: idiot that killed him and did this to him left 504 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: the guy's wallet in his back pocket. Even though the 505 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: case that was being presented, I'm listening to this, you know, 506 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: my mouth is wide open. I'm listening to this. Even 507 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: though you didn't have the head and you didn't have 508 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: the hands, that were still able to get him identified. 509 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, well, in Camani's case, why would this 510 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: say it not satanist? Satanist and I'm using that term 511 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 1: because there's a sexual component here. Why would this individual 512 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: cut the hands off? Are you doing that in order 513 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: to inhibit or impede rather, I guess the authority's ability 514 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: to get her identified through fingerprints? Well, does she have 515 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: fingerprints on file? Do you know something about that? I mean, 516 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,280 Speaker 1: she has been a child that has gone through the system. 517 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:46,399 Speaker 1: Did Local Family Children's Services? Did they ever print her 518 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: for anything? Are you thinking that? Do you think that 519 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: you're going to thwart this investigation? By merely removing this 520 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 1: thirteen year old's hands. Is that where we're at with this, 521 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: because I don't understand the rationale behind it. Were you're 522 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: going to try to piecemeal out the body and you 523 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: were merely going to this abandoned house. And here's another thing, 524 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: this house, Dave and the doors, well maybe not necessarily 525 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,879 Speaker 1: the doors, they've been boarded up as a result of 526 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: this previous fire. You can see kind of that particle board, 527 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: cheap particle board that you used to cover windows after fires, 528 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: and they dropped screws in there, you know, to cover 529 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: the windows to prevent anybody from because it's dangerous. I mean, 530 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: burned out houses are one of the most dangerous environments 531 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,760 Speaker 1: you could be in. Well, you have to think whoever 532 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: the perpetrator is had a familiarity with the area. They 533 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: would have gone directly to that house. Maybe they had 534 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: seen it in the daytime passing by. Did any you know, 535 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 1: did anybody see somebody carrying this young girl's body into 536 00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: the house? And then how did you gain access to 537 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: the house. And it's not just like this is done 538 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: on the first floor. Once they made entry into the house, 539 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: they went to the second, second floor to do this. 540 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 1: So had they been hanging out in here before, did 541 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 1: they know that the staircase was safe. It's one thing 542 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: if you're going to try to walk yourself up a 543 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: staircase in the dark in a burned out house, But 544 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: now you're going to take the body of a thirteen 545 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,240 Speaker 1: year old and walk up the staircase with that body 546 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: and then do whatever it is you're going to do 547 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: with that body upstairs. I don't know. There's a lot 548 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: of questions here from a forensics perspective, Dave that right now, 549 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:45,879 Speaker 1: we don't have the answers. 550 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 2: To We don't know. And that's what I was going 551 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:52,439 Speaker 2: to ask you. Okay, they would obviously know. They being 552 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 2: the investigators, when they're doing the autopsy, they're going to 553 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 2: be able to determine that her hands were cut off 554 00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:58,919 Speaker 2: after she was dead. 555 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: They're going to yeah, yeah, yeah, and yeah, and so 556 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: you're going to be looking for hemorrhage in there. If 557 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: there's no hemorrhage, there's you know, then that's an indicative 558 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 1: of a post mortem event. 559 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 2: This is something they haven't described whether or not this 560 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 2: is the location. Was she killed at this location or 561 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,359 Speaker 2: was she killed somewhere else? And brought there. 562 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And there's a lot to consider here as well. 563 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: I find it very interesting. Can we go back just 564 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 1: a second to her home. Yeah, and I'm thinking about 565 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 1: the gas being on her. 566 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 2: I am too, That's exactly I'm in the same boat, 567 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 2: because my first thought was, Okay, wait a minute, we 568 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 2: got a burned out house here where her body is 569 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 2: found on the side or and I believe that whoever 570 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 2: kidnapped her, whoever took Kamani outside of her grandmother's home, 571 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 2: set that gas on to blow the place up to 572 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 2: ruin any other evidence he left behind. And that's my job. 573 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: Here's another thing I'm wondering. I'm wondering if there were 574 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: if the individual had thought about that, had they lit 575 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: candles in the house in another area, hoping that hoping, 576 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,359 Speaker 1: just hoping that as the gas kind of filled the 577 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: environment that it would it would ignite off of candles 578 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 1: burning in another area of the house. Now that that's 579 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 1: a methodology that arsonists have used in the past, and 580 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: it seems as though that there's this weird connective tissue 581 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: with this case in the gas and back to the 582 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: gas before I get to my brains get too scrambled here, 583 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: I was thinking, when her body is examined with if 584 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 1: it is a carbon monoxide asshixiation case, let's just say 585 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: that she was around this gas that was seeping out 586 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: into the house and it's displacing the oxygen. She takes 587 00:38:53,680 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: on carbon monoxide just the opening of her body. We've 588 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: kind of talked about how it carbon dioxide affects the hemoglobin. 589 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: You'll see it automatically that soft tissues will have a 590 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: cherry pink appearance to it. Even the blood will be 591 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: cherry pink. And I'm wondering, was this like a half 592 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,359 Speaker 1: hearted attempt at that, you know, and it just kind of, 593 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 1: you know, just kind of played out. It didn't work 594 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,760 Speaker 1: out like they thought that it was. It seems highly 595 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 1: disorganized to me. I don't know that there was necessarily 596 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 1: a plan going in, but Dave, I'm going to go 597 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: ahead and mention this, and it just absolutely breaks my heart, 598 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 1: as if this is not if the fact that what 599 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,479 Speaker 1: makes us all the more tragic is the fact that 600 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: this child was raped. And as you, my friend, have 601 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: famously stated, and I agree with you categorically, children don't 602 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: have sex, children are assaulted and raped, period, And she 603 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: was in fact raped they have performed a rape kid 604 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 1: on her, Dave, and it bore fruit relative to the 605 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: fact that they knew that she had been sexually assaulted. 606 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:30,720 Speaker 1: You're talking about a very impassioned event, twisted and rotten 607 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:37,799 Speaker 1: to the core, but still being driven by passion by 608 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: somebody that saw an opportunity for this thirteen year old 609 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 1: girl that had been left at home alone while her 610 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,439 Speaker 1: grandma was going out and making a living where her 611 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:58,319 Speaker 1: parents were not around. The mother had famously stated that, yeah, 612 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 1: she would go with her file. I guess the grandmother 613 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,879 Speaker 1: gave permission. And you know, you and I were talking 614 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: about this off a or anytime you hear a comment 615 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 1: like that, and you know that the grandmother in this 616 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 1: case would be the primary custodian that something has happened 617 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: that has been identified that these two adults that brought 618 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: her into this world were for whatever reason, incapable of 619 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 1: taking care of her on a day to day basis. 620 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 2: Dave, and a couple of the things that we've got 621 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 2: to get to very quickly, Joe, I've got to I'm 622 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 2: very curious because you mentioned earlier that it was Darnell 623 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 2: Jones slash Darnell Ogletree, same person, just different names, which anytimes, 624 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,319 Speaker 2: anytime a person who's thirty three years old has two 625 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,360 Speaker 2: names they go by. Yeah, immediately, I'm thinking, really, I 626 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 2: don't know anybody other than professionals on in radio and television. 627 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 2: You know people who changed their name for that. I 628 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 2: don't know. I don't know people on the street that 629 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 2: use two different names to go by unless they're criminals. 630 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 2: But I'm not saying that Darnell Jones slash Ogletree is 631 00:41:58,040 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 2: a criminal. I'm just saying I don't know anybody that is. 632 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,319 Speaker 2: He has students, but his girlfriend was a key to 633 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,359 Speaker 2: this case. But let me ask you this, Joey. We 634 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 2: know that the night of the sixteenth, Dorothy, the grandmother, 635 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 2: leaves to go to work, and we know that Kimmani 636 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,319 Speaker 2: is at the house. We know that Darnell Jones went 637 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 2: there that night, claims he was there till twelve thirty. 638 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 2: We know that that morning when Dorothy got home on 639 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 2: the morning of the seventeenth, that Camani was gone. Now, 640 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,839 Speaker 2: Kimmani's body is not found for six days. Her body 641 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:36,920 Speaker 2: is not found for six six days, and it was 642 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 2: on I want to break down what the girlfriend says here. Now, 643 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,800 Speaker 2: Darnell Jones's girlfriend at the time helped police find the 644 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:47,280 Speaker 2: evidence in the murder case. She told investigators that Jones 645 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 2: called her on Friday, March twenty first and asked her 646 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 2: to turn the cameras off at their home. Suspicious, she 647 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 2: left the cameras on. This is the twenty first. This 648 00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 2: is four days after Camani has been taken from the 649 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 2: home and a couple of days before they find her body. 650 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 2: So on the twenty first, he says turn the cameras off, 651 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 2: she leaves them on. The girlfriend says that she saw 652 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,040 Speaker 2: him move items from his suv into the house and 653 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 2: hide them under the basement stairs. Girlfriend calls police, They 654 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,919 Speaker 2: get a search warrant, They come in and they take 655 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,560 Speaker 2: the evidence. The girlfriend told a reporter that he hid 656 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,760 Speaker 2: a mat like you have in the back of an suv, 657 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 2: that rubber floor mat. She said that he put the 658 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 2: rolled up floor mat and his work boots that were 659 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 2: caked with mud. That's where mentioning you. You mentioned how 660 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 2: you hadn't been working. He put these under the stairs 661 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 2: in the basement, and she says that once Jones noticed, 662 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,240 Speaker 2: when Darnell Jones noticed that those items were gone, meaning 663 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,240 Speaker 2: she calls police. They came, they did the search warrant 664 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,600 Speaker 2: and got those items. When Jones came in and realized 665 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 2: those items had been taken, he bolted. She never saw 666 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,919 Speaker 2: him again, so he takes off. He knows they got 667 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 2: the evidence. That's gonna so now I'm going back to 668 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 2: the girlfriend says that Jones calls her from Columbus, Ohio, 669 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,800 Speaker 2: and she told police where they could find him. Okay, 670 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 2: but Joe, A couple of things here. He's got a 671 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,560 Speaker 2: roll that we know that she was found on the 672 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,759 Speaker 2: second floor of a burned out house in Tooledo. We 673 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 2: know that he's hiding evidence from his SUV under the 674 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 2: floorboard on the twenty first, four days after her kidnap. 675 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:30,879 Speaker 1: Yep. 676 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 2: Did he have her somewhere? Wow? And was raping and 677 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:38,239 Speaker 2: terrorizing her for days before he then killed her allegedly 678 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,319 Speaker 2: and put her body on the second floor of this 679 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 2: burned out house. Is there a way to determine when 680 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:44,960 Speaker 2: she was killed? 681 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: Yeah? There is hoping that the medical legal community did 682 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 1: their due diligence at the scene because it would be 683 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:59,080 Speaker 1: a matter of being able to examine her body. What 684 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,920 Speaker 1: we refer to as insight you, which means a fancy 685 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,879 Speaker 1: term for in place. So let's just think about this. 686 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:14,359 Speaker 1: If she has been down for we're going to get 687 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 1: into a little entomology here. If she has been down 688 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: for say six days, okay, in that location, then there 689 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 1: would be a flies come to mind. There will be 690 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,800 Speaker 1: a fly cycle that goes through where you have adult 691 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:35,320 Speaker 1: flies that come in and lay eggs, and those eggs 692 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,640 Speaker 1: go through the various stages they go through, You develop 693 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 1: the larva, the maggot. Maggot sheds the husk, becomes an 694 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,239 Speaker 1: adult fly, and then that cycle kind of continues on. 695 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:50,400 Speaker 1: And one of the things we do at scenes is 696 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,520 Speaker 1: we collect this husk. We collect flies by the way 697 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 1: as well, generally put them in little containers with alcohol 698 00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: in them. Just the entomology alone is going to give 699 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,880 Speaker 1: you an indication of was this six days or was 700 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 1: this two days? You know, had he been riding around 701 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,400 Speaker 1: with her in a truck trying to decide what to 702 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,560 Speaker 1: do with her. We get back to the fact that 703 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:25,400 Speaker 1: there is a partial dismemberment here. And I always hold 704 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,279 Speaker 1: that if an individual is going to engage in that practice, 705 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 1: you need a lot of privacy because it's the matter. 706 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,359 Speaker 1: It's a matter of first off, not knowing what you're 707 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,319 Speaker 1: doing anatomically, do you have the right tools or you 708 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 1: using some kind of blunt tool that is not sufficient 709 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,960 Speaker 1: to the task. I go back to the idea of 710 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,480 Speaker 1: the hands, where those hands removed on the surface of 711 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,640 Speaker 1: that mat, and it was just kind of like, and 712 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 1: this has happened before, Dave. We have people that will 713 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:03,800 Speaker 1: enter into the idea that they're going to dismember a body, 714 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden they realize they stepped 715 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:07,799 Speaker 1: off the edge of the pool and they're in the 716 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,800 Speaker 1: deep end and not the shallow end, and it's it's 717 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 1: too much of a too much of a burden to 718 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:21,359 Speaker 1: undertake because you don't have the correct skills in order 719 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,280 Speaker 1: to engage in this. You don't have the right tools, 720 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:27,919 Speaker 1: and you just suddenly, you know, maybe you get both 721 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,000 Speaker 1: the hands that the hands would be the easy part. 722 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,920 Speaker 1: The hands in the head would be the two easiest 723 00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:37,120 Speaker 1: parts to those elements of the body to be removed 724 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:42,880 Speaker 1: out of everything else. In my estimation, at least feet 725 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 1: at the ankles are complicated. Okay, hands, hands and head 726 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:54,719 Speaker 1: are simple. You get through here, and it's you know, 727 00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,440 Speaker 1: it's there's a term that lawyers use. Nancy's going to 728 00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,840 Speaker 1: jump on me for this because I'm you're not a lawyer. 729 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:07,560 Speaker 1: Just got there. There are offenses that are labeled it's 730 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,799 Speaker 1: an incomplete offense. They call them in co haate offenses. 731 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,719 Speaker 1: This is like an in coo haate act, you know, 732 00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:19,120 Speaker 1: where you set about to dismember a body and then 733 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:21,759 Speaker 1: suddenly you realize that it's just it's too much work. 734 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,640 Speaker 1: I can't do this. I have to find someplace to 735 00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,719 Speaker 1: hide this body away. You bring up another interesting point. Dave, 736 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:35,560 Speaker 1: had he been holding her somewhere else torturing her, now, 737 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:42,319 Speaker 1: would would there be other evidences of that? Well, when 738 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,000 Speaker 1: we think about, you know, the different things of torture, 739 00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,480 Speaker 1: you know they're involved. I've had people that were branded 740 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,080 Speaker 1: that were tied up, cigarette butts put out, you know, 741 00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:56,520 Speaker 1: crushed out on them, chemicals poured on them, and whatever 742 00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 1: kind of insult that you subject the living per too. 743 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:05,400 Speaker 1: At a cellular level, you can actually appreciate that the 744 00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,800 Speaker 1: body begins to try to heal itself. Okay, some injuries 745 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:13,920 Speaker 1: begin to recede. You'll see the body almost trying to 746 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,480 Speaker 1: stitch itself back together, if you will, Okay, for lack 747 00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,880 Speaker 1: of a better term, is there evidence of that is 748 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,279 Speaker 1: there evidence that early on that she had been traumatized 749 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,520 Speaker 1: in some way in life, and that she had been 750 00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,360 Speaker 1: kept alive, and that these injuries were starting to subside. 751 00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:35,000 Speaker 1: They're not as inflamed as say, the initial insult. That's 752 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,480 Speaker 1: certainly something that the emmy would have to explore. And 753 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,960 Speaker 1: now I'm sure that they did, you know, because they're 754 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,520 Speaker 1: looking at these injuries. Now they're saying that the injuries 755 00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,799 Speaker 1: on the neck, which is they famously said that this 756 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 1: is a almost complete decapitation, they had hemorrhage in those areas, 757 00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,399 Speaker 1: so that means that she was alive and had her 758 00:49:54,480 --> 00:50:00,880 Speaker 1: throat cut. They also say that she has been sexually assaulted. Okay, 759 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 1: now with that said, we begin to think about that 760 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 1: this is who the police have identified. This is her daddy, 761 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:25,919 Speaker 1: it's her father, her biological parents. I don't it's it's 762 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:32,040 Speaker 1: hard to plumb the depths of this. And this does happen, 763 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:36,279 Speaker 1: it happens a lot. We don't know what kind of 764 00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:42,040 Speaker 1: trauma she sustained during sexual assault. At this point. We 765 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,760 Speaker 1: don't know if this was an event that was again 766 00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:56,000 Speaker 1: anti mortem, was it a post mortem event, And it's 767 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,920 Speaker 1: hard to make heads or tails of it. I do 768 00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,719 Speaker 1: know this, and I would love for you to kind 769 00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:07,480 Speaker 1: of lay this out for us. He apparently did not 770 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:12,600 Speaker 1: have the intestinal fortitude to personally deprive us of his presence, 771 00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:13,879 Speaker 1: did he No? 772 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:18,520 Speaker 2: And I mentioned earlier that it was his girlfriend. Thank god, 773 00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:24,839 Speaker 2: she has character. You know, she's only called police and 774 00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:27,920 Speaker 2: said this is something's going on here. Come. You know, 775 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,200 Speaker 2: without her, we would not have a lot of information 776 00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:33,799 Speaker 2: that we have. And by the way, the other part 777 00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,120 Speaker 2: of this, you know, the reason we know about her 778 00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:38,799 Speaker 2: hands being cut off, the rape, and the fact that 779 00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,719 Speaker 2: her neck had been that her head was that she 780 00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,759 Speaker 2: was nearly decapitated. You know, the Toledo Police chief is 781 00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:48,120 Speaker 2: mad about that because it was a spokesperson for the 782 00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,719 Speaker 2: Fraternal Order of Police that actually gave that information to 783 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:56,839 Speaker 2: the press and it didn't go through the Toledo Police chief. 784 00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,560 Speaker 2: And he's not he's he's he's mad because he said, 785 00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,880 Speaker 2: you don't say that out loud in public because you 786 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,720 Speaker 2: don't know what the family knows or where the investigation stands. 787 00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:11,720 Speaker 2: So while that information is accurate, you don't give that out. 788 00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,279 Speaker 2: I was shocked we had that information. We've never had 789 00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:14,840 Speaker 2: this before. 790 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess I've read I don't know. I think 791 00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,920 Speaker 1: I've read like eight articles on this case, and it 792 00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:24,120 Speaker 1: mentions it in every single. 793 00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:28,680 Speaker 2: Case because it's so shocking. And anyway, when the girlfriend 794 00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:32,239 Speaker 2: they were looking for Darnelle Jones, Darnelle ogil Dream, they 795 00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,000 Speaker 2: were looking for him, they couldn't find him, and it 796 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:36,920 Speaker 2: was his girlfriend that found out where he was and 797 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:40,080 Speaker 2: she called police, so they knew where to go in Columbus, 798 00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,359 Speaker 2: Ohio to go and get him. When they go there, 799 00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,080 Speaker 2: they know he's armed. I'm going to assume, and that's 800 00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:48,120 Speaker 2: a horrible thing, but they knew he was armed somehow. 801 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,239 Speaker 2: I'm going to assume that the girlfriend said you'd better 802 00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:53,040 Speaker 2: watch out. He's armed, right because he had communicated to 803 00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,959 Speaker 2: with her what he had planned to do. And when 804 00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,520 Speaker 2: the police arrived with SWAT. By the way, this is 805 00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,719 Speaker 2: all in video. SWAT team arrives, it's a bodycam, right yeah, 806 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,040 Speaker 2: bodycam yeah yeah yeah, and uh swat bodycam and they 807 00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,919 Speaker 2: actually they get him. He wants them to kill him, 808 00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:12,799 Speaker 2: you know, kill me. 809 00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,960 Speaker 1: Didn't he say that he actually makes that request? 810 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,439 Speaker 2: Kill me? Yeah, kill me? And they wouldn't. They shot 811 00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:22,399 Speaker 2: him in the one place that they knew they could 812 00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:26,200 Speaker 2: probably save him. You know, and that's what we know. 813 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,759 Speaker 2: We you know, this information has been really given to 814 00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,920 Speaker 2: us in a very quick amount of time. Usually you 815 00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,160 Speaker 2: have to wait for reports and things like that too, 816 00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,520 Speaker 2: you know, before lawyers and everybody else for the cities involved, 817 00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:41,520 Speaker 2: usually go through these things. We have to beg for 818 00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:44,279 Speaker 2: them and file foyer requests. Not this time, it's all 819 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:48,160 Speaker 2: been just And I'm thankful from our standpoint of getting 820 00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:50,920 Speaker 2: the information, Joe, But I wouldn't be thankful if I 821 00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:52,960 Speaker 2: was a family member and didn't know what happened. The 822 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,360 Speaker 2: other day, we were actually in the middle of a 823 00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:59,480 Speaker 2: show and we had family members on the program that 824 00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,440 Speaker 2: knew information that was not public and that the police 825 00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,200 Speaker 2: had not given to us yet. And I heard them 826 00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:09,760 Speaker 2: say things that I hadn't heard, and it was shocking. 827 00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,839 Speaker 2: But they knew it. The family knew it right and 828 00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:17,279 Speaker 2: and anyway, same thing, it's a hear in reverse. The 829 00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:19,520 Speaker 2: family might not have known all the things that went 830 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,080 Speaker 2: into this when they released the information to the press. 831 00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:27,520 Speaker 2: So bottom line, this girlfriend gave the evidence. She knew 832 00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,080 Speaker 2: something was wrong when he said turn the cameras off. 833 00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,680 Speaker 2: She's the one to call police, come and get it 834 00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:34,560 Speaker 2: just right here. So they could get a search for 835 00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,560 Speaker 2: it and know exactly what to look for. Then she 836 00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:40,680 Speaker 2: calls and says, I got him. Here he is And 837 00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:42,360 Speaker 2: they went and got him in because they knew his 838 00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,920 Speaker 2: state of mind that he was wanting to die, they 839 00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,680 Speaker 2: prepped accordingly and didn't kill him and took him into 840 00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,440 Speaker 2: custody where he'll now be held accountable. 841 00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:54,799 Speaker 1: Yeah he will, and you know, we'll see what the 842 00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,400 Speaker 1: prosecution does with this. We'll see what the courts, you know, 843 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:02,080 Speaker 1: what they allow. A lot of this data is already 844 00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:05,960 Speaker 1: out there and I don't know. I mean, prayers for 845 00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:11,120 Speaker 1: her family that remained grandmother. My heart breaks for her, 846 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:18,239 Speaker 1: Dorothy in this particular case, and you know Camanie's mother 847 00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:22,520 Speaker 1: as well. Dorothy was the one that was tasked, you know, 848 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,759 Speaker 1: with her well being and now this is something that's 849 00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,799 Speaker 1: going to haunt her. I can guarantee you. And I 850 00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,080 Speaker 1: hate that, I really do. It's a tough world out there. 851 00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:34,520 Speaker 1: You've got to get out there and make a living. 852 00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,240 Speaker 1: And that as a grandmother you've been tasked with taking 853 00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:44,680 Speaker 1: care of your grandchild is you know, it's well, it's 854 00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,880 Speaker 1: something that happens every single day all over this country. 855 00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:53,440 Speaker 1: No thirteen year old should be subjected to a life 856 00:55:53,600 --> 00:56:01,080 Speaker 1: of abuse, neglect, sexual assault. And we don't know if 857 00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:04,319 Speaker 1: this was the very first time this had occurred, but 858 00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,799 Speaker 1: what we do know is that the world has been 859 00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:12,440 Speaker 1: deprived of a beautiful young girl who died in a 860 00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:23,240 Speaker 1: horrible way and was discarded like garbage. I'm Joseph Scott 861 00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:26,280 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body bags