Speaker 1: Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.
Speaker 1: These are our stories.
Speaker 3: Done done, Yay, that's messed up.
Speaker 4: An sv podcast.
Speaker 1: My name is Lisa and I'm Kara, and every week
Speaker 1: we bring you an episode recap of SVU, a dive
Speaker 1: into the true crimes that it was based on. And
Speaker 1: sometimes we have interviews with people from the show and
Speaker 1: sometimes we don't, but up top we chat away catch up.
Speaker 2: And before we start, I do have to say I
Speaker 2: leave this week to New Zealand and Australia, So if
Speaker 2: you're in Auckland, Perth, Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, I'll be there too.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm on out. I'm excited.
Speaker 1: Down Under, get with it, get your down Under. I
Speaker 1: cast shout all my upgrades. I will be laying down.
Speaker 1: It's a life. I can't even believe it's about to happen,
Speaker 1: doing like a twenty hour lay down exciting.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really a thrill because.
Speaker 1: That I feel like that's a that's that's really big news,
Speaker 1: that's you.
Speaker 2: It's like being in the cult finally pays off. It's
Speaker 2: like when you get to, like, finally have sex with
Speaker 2: the leader.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, my time has this flight, this flight is
Speaker 1: you finally fucking Keith Ranieri and I'm so happy for you. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: if you guys want to, like sometimes people tell us
Speaker 1: that they get bad ticket sites when they just Google,
Speaker 1: So go to that's messed up live dot com and
Speaker 1: then Lisa's web Like, Lisa's website is linked there and
Speaker 1: that has all her ticket links, so you can get
Speaker 1: legit ticket links and dates and time.
Speaker 4: There's no reason to be on the scam website.
Speaker 1: Guys, plenty of we're we're showing you the way. Also
Speaker 1: a flight thing, I did meet a listener in first
Speaker 1: class coming from Charlotte, So just a shout out to
Speaker 1: Nicole Talks Bravo. Well, at first she saw me have
Speaker 1: an attitude, and then I felt humiliated because my bag
Speaker 1: was moved without anyone asking me, and so I couldn't
Speaker 1: find my bag and she knew where it was, and
Speaker 1: I go, but why would they move it without even
Speaker 1: giving me a heads up? And then she was like
Speaker 1: I love the pod, oh god, oh god, and the
Speaker 1: James Gordon of that flight. Yeah, except you weren't making
Speaker 1: your wife do a bunch of work. No, no, But
Speaker 1: speaking of Bravo though, right before we came on, you
Speaker 1: were going to say something about Next Gen NYC. And
Speaker 1: I'm not watching it, but I still want to hear
Speaker 1: some thoughts because I am getting clips in case anybody doesn't.
Speaker 2: Well, this isn't even from the show. It's honestly crazier
Speaker 2: and it might entice you to watch. There's a guy,
Speaker 2: Charlie on the show if you're watching Sea and he
Speaker 2: sucks but crazy. I don't know if you remember the
Speaker 2: Italian tourist that was being tortured for a month and
Speaker 2: escaped from New York. He was on the scene of
Speaker 2: the crime. He was at that house. He was in
Speaker 2: the crypto torture house where they held a tourist and
Speaker 2: tortured him for a month, and he like, there's footage
Speaker 2: of him escaping and running out. Charlie was seen there.
Speaker 1: Okay, we have to back it up for a second.
Speaker 1: We have to back it up a couple of steps. Okay,
Speaker 1: so the first step is just to explain that there
Speaker 1: is a show on Bravo called Next Gen NYC. It's
Speaker 1: like Saved by the Bell, the new class. It's all
Speaker 1: it's a bunch of kids of Bravo people, but then
Speaker 1: also well known kids of other just like rich kids.
Speaker 2: The other rich kids are like cool New York kids,
Speaker 2: but this guy, Charlie is like, oh great, another housewife kid.
Speaker 1: Ugh, yes, God, and you wouldn't have a show. You
Speaker 1: wouldn't have a show. I saw that clip this morning,
Speaker 1: and it's like, but I also saw a clip with
Speaker 1: him being very microaggressive to Riley Burris. That clip was
Speaker 1: going around as well, and I'm like, who is he like,
Speaker 1: And of course I can't google, but I'm asking you
Speaker 1: who is he? Where is his connection?
Speaker 2: So his dad is like a succession kind of dad,
Speaker 2: like just a rich rich man, and the mom like
Speaker 2: kind of bounced and is like a hippie rock star woman.
Speaker 2: And he's just like, you know, he gets money from
Speaker 2: his rich dad and invests in crypto.
Speaker 1: Like he's wait, but here's something interesting because I did
Speaker 1: just google it that his dad is a private investigator.
Speaker 4: Okay, that's I don't know.
Speaker 1: I can't really, there's no way you can make that
Speaker 1: much money. Well, maybe it's all our collector. And then
Speaker 1: his mom's an art collector. We met his mom. His
Speaker 1: mom's a drug addict.
Speaker 2: I think maybe it's all funny, like not that you
Speaker 2: can't be an total elector without being un drugs.
Speaker 1: You actually can, you can actually do.
Speaker 2: A private investigator is totally I mean, it seemed like
Speaker 2: he's a finance guy, like business finance company.
Speaker 1: Charlie's the core. Yeah, yeah, no, Charlie is the kid.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. It says his parents are a private investor.
Speaker 1: I'm oh, my god, Lisa.
Speaker 4: It's investments.
Speaker 1: I knew it. It's private investor, and I was reading it.
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I know, but I just thought
Speaker 1: it was cool because we have a fucking crime podcast.
Speaker 1: I was like, neat, his dad's a private investigator. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I just like, don't hear the words private
Speaker 1: investor that much. He's like a private Okay, he's in
Speaker 1: a private investor. That's yeah, I'm okay, it's investments. Sorry,
Speaker 1: but it is kind of funny that I was like, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: he's got it in a.
Speaker 2: Car all day and like nobody got fired from the squad,
Speaker 2: you know what.
Speaker 1: Nick Kroll's parents level like not, but that's securities. That's
Speaker 1: not private investig that's like security. But it's like, but
Speaker 1: it's like, but it's investigating people too, so I thought
Speaker 1: maybe it was like that. But it's like the fucking
Speaker 1: Peter Tielgey. It's like securities, it's bond it's like it's insane.
Speaker 1: It's not like a p I, right, But I was
Speaker 1: just thinking upper echelon a high highest level. Okay, listen,
Speaker 1: my brain went to a crazy place. I just like
Speaker 1: did not know who this kid was, and I was like,
Speaker 1: he's acting really big for his puches on the show.
Speaker 2: He's like unwell, he's an unwell rich kid who like
Speaker 2: can't function with others, and right aways like, oh, you're trash.
Speaker 2: And it's like Arianna Berman's boyfriend is the Zaxby's chicken air,
Speaker 2: so you better put some respect on his name. But
Speaker 2: also Arianna is in a lovely relationship. It's beautiful to watch,
Speaker 2: Like they went to Jia's house and she like she's
Speaker 2: taking her clothes off to being a bikini and she
Speaker 2: turns to her boyfriend goes is my tampon string hanging out?
Speaker 4: And I'm like, oh, this is a real relationship.
Speaker 1: I'm proud of Aria, Like this is beautiful, And they
Speaker 1: brought laundry to Gia's because they're new to New York,
Speaker 1: like they're not used to this life.
Speaker 4: So they brought all their laundry to do laundry in Jersey.
Speaker 1: So I lie, so I ca' I saw, like, no,
Speaker 1: it's really great that.
Speaker 2: But Riley really stood up for herself in an incredible
Speaker 2: way and was like chill and amazing and like Charlie
Speaker 2: was being like so racist and so fucked apologized and
Speaker 2: later in the episode told other people, Oh, yeah, I
Speaker 2: didn't mean my apology. I didn't mean it. I just
Speaker 2: had to settle it like I didn't care.
Speaker 4: I don't care. And Damon Dash's daughter's in it too.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 4: It's like fun, it's fun.
Speaker 2: It's not you know, it's a nice chill out because
Speaker 2: Miami is so intense, the valley is so intense. And
Speaker 2: then like having twenty year old drama be about like, well,
Speaker 2: I guess the race.
Speaker 1: Stuff was like pretty fucked for sure, but yes, no,
Speaker 1: that was I thought it was like she was Riley
Speaker 1: calm and she was being so she was like so
Speaker 1: clearly communicating what her issue was, and he was just
Speaker 1: like yeah, but no, like I hate, like I hate
Speaker 1: that guy, and I literally settle, we could like relax
Speaker 1: and it's like, you know you he's straight up like
Speaker 1: did an impersonation of Riley talking to someone with the
Speaker 1: finger spinning his neck like ring like in a circle
Speaker 1: and moving his finger around. And then they cut to
Speaker 1: the footage and it's like none of that is obvious,
Speaker 1: like is happening?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: So and then she I love what she calls Candy
Speaker 1: and she's and she's like he did the finger wag
Speaker 1: and Candy's.
Speaker 2: Like, no, he did not, Like it's so good, Miami.
Speaker 2: He's incredible too, like Brava. I mean, summer is always
Speaker 2: a desert and stuff. But like they're they're trying. They're
Speaker 2: giving us some little there's giving us some goods.
Speaker 1: I feel, and I'm gonna be I'm gonna have a
Speaker 1: lot because I'm gonna have a lot to love hotel
Speaker 1: and next gen I'm gonna get into. But can we
Speaker 1: also now go to bitcoin torture house, which I have
Speaker 1: never heard of, And I literally just googled it that
Speaker 1: a month This happened a month ago. Obviously you live
Speaker 1: in New York, so maybe you're getting this kind of
Speaker 1: stuff more.
Speaker 2: I don't know why this didn't I of him running away.
Speaker 2: I mean things are happening so far. I mean I
Speaker 2: went on stage in Charlotte at like seven, and when
Speaker 2: I got off stage, Iran was bombed.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. Oh.
Speaker 2: Also, while I was on stage, a flying cockroach landed
Speaker 2: in my hair.
Speaker 1: Stop it, Lisa, stop it. You reacted while more to
Speaker 1: that than Iran being bombed, And well I knew about
Speaker 1: Iran being bombed. A flying congratulated in your hair? How
Speaker 1: did you even? Is it on tape? It is, I'm
Speaker 1: posting the clip.
Speaker 4: Don't worry. The clip's going up.
Speaker 1: The clip will be up the way. The clip has
Speaker 1: to be comedian destroys flying cockroach that tries to heckle
Speaker 1: her during set.
Speaker 4: What I'm definitely doing that.
Speaker 1: Comedian destroys cockroach heckler. Oh my god, I cannot that
Speaker 1: is Look, I'm not even like a scary bug person,
Speaker 1: because like I kill all the bugs in our house,
Speaker 1: but cockroaches are another yeah, another level. Yeah, it's really
Speaker 1: They're really in the South. Where you were in the South,
Speaker 1: Were they calling it a pal meadow bug? Were they
Speaker 1: trying to downplay it? Were you with a different name.
Speaker 2: They might have called it a different name, and then
Speaker 2: you know they're big things like it. It's the South, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I get, but it was definitely a wild, a wild thing.
Speaker 2: But I also, okay, I'm like embarrassed because in Atlanta
Speaker 2: flying cockroach landed on me as well.
Speaker 4: So it's like two cities in a row.
Speaker 2: So obviously I have to google what this means about
Speaker 2: my spirit. But I was at another comedian's pool. It
Speaker 2: was late at night after the shows, and we're sitting
Speaker 2: and I feel a bug land on my leg, but
Speaker 2: I go be mature, it doesn't matter, it's okay. Then
Speaker 2: it flies and lands on my arm and that's when
Speaker 2: I flip out.
Speaker 4: It falls in the pool and it's struggling. It's struggling.
Speaker 2: It's struggling, and it's like, no wonder cockroach just survived
Speaker 2: like the dinosaurs, like truly was struggling for so long.
Speaker 2: We finally couldn't look at it anymore, and so she
Speaker 2: went to go cover it with a leaf, but instead
Speaker 2: it used itself to like prop the other way and
Speaker 2: then swam then got out of the pool and then
Speaker 2: walked straight for revenge.
Speaker 1: That cockroach was making it. Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but so I wasn't even like, I mean, my
Speaker 2: hair was different. But yeah, I've had a cockroach on
Speaker 2: like every part of my body.
Speaker 4: While I was in the South. Yuck, yuck, yuck. Is right?
Speaker 1: Okay, But is it okay if we just really quickly
Speaker 1: touch on this fucking yes, we gotta get back to yes, yes,
Speaker 1: this okay. I'm reading a CBS news article that I
Speaker 1: just googled that it unidentified twenty eight year old man
Speaker 1: managed to escape from his alleged captors on May twenty third.
Speaker 1: This all happened like a month ago in Soho, bloodied
Speaker 1: and not wearing shoes. I mean, this is an SVU episode.
Speaker 1: People are constantly sending us SFU episodes to our dms.
Speaker 1: I don't know why I didn't get this guy, he
Speaker 1: told police, and two cryptocurrency investors, a thirty seven year
Speaker 1: old and a thirty three year old, have been charged
Speaker 1: with the kidnapping, on assault an unlawful prisonment. They're being
Speaker 1: held without that like what was their real like why wow?
Speaker 4: Oh, I don't know, torture but they.
Speaker 1: Are invest in our crypto invest Like what the hell
Speaker 1: were they just like drugged to the hilt and thought
Speaker 1: this was like gonna be fun. That is so nuts.
Speaker 4: It's nuts.
Speaker 1: They were threatening to have the man's family killed unless
Speaker 1: he paid them a bitcoin. Okay, so it sounds like
Speaker 1: there was a bit of a ransom situation happening as
Speaker 1: well or blackmail. Two weeks he was held as they
Speaker 1: thought him as they tried to get him to give
Speaker 1: up the password for his bitcoin wallet.
Speaker 2: Oh and that how that Wow? I wonder how much
Speaker 2: money was there that he wouldn't give it up? Yeah,
Speaker 2: because because bitcoin is not right, because then you would,
Speaker 2: well maybe they would.
Speaker 4: He thought they would kill him if he.
Speaker 1: Told Yeah, because once they have the information, what's.
Speaker 4: To keep in mind that.
Speaker 2: I'm like, because then you can get it back if
Speaker 2: you go to the whatever whatever. But I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: then they have what they need.
Speaker 1: They put an air tag around his neck and told
Speaker 1: him if he left, they'd find him. It's like, okayal precincts.
Speaker 1: Hung him over the ledge of a building. Seems like
Speaker 1: they did a couple of stabler things. Hug him over
Speaker 1: the ledge of a building, hit him with a gun like,
Speaker 1: you know, pointed a gun at his head a bunch
Speaker 1: of times. But I guess it's like after a few days,
Speaker 1: you're like, if they're not going to go through with
Speaker 1: killing me, They're probably not going to kill me. Like
Speaker 1: maybe he just thought they forced him to smoke crack
Speaker 1: and they pissed on him. Oh my god, Oh my god.
Speaker 1: This is so it was. It was seventeen days. So
Speaker 1: you know this is going to be a season twenty
Speaker 1: seven episode. There's no way this is not a season
Speaker 1: twenty seven episode. I bet a writer the fashing. Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: They're literally getting notes on the episode, and then they're
Speaker 1: going to arrest like the Charlie type figure while he's
Speaker 1: shooting a reality show.
Speaker 4: Like that's what we're gonna get to.
Speaker 1: Sources say that two NYPD detectives did private security work
Speaker 1: for the suspects, but there's no indication that they knew
Speaker 1: about the kidnapping. One of these detectives picked the guy
Speaker 1: up at the airport at the victim and brought him
Speaker 1: to the house, and one of the detectives was assigned
Speaker 1: on the security detail for Mayor Eric Adams. Oh.
Speaker 2: Also, if anyone needs something to do, congress Woman from Florida,
Speaker 2: Kat Camick, she got an abortion. She called the governor
Speaker 2: to save her life.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So if you guys want to call, I call
Speaker 2: DC today And he said you must be civil, and
Speaker 2: I go, what a civil?
Speaker 4: Mean bit? I call them fascist scum.
Speaker 2: But yeah, if you're in the mood, I think there
Speaker 2: are some You should go on her instagram.
Speaker 4: You should go on her instagram.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting, all the conservatives that are anti abortion,
Speaker 2: we are not seeing them in the comments.
Speaker 1: For some reason. They're not mad at her. Hmm, for
Speaker 1: some reason, she's not being attacked. But there's a DC
Speaker 1: office in Osal is it o'cat whatever at Gainesville.
Speaker 4: There's two offices in Florida.
Speaker 2: So call Camick and especially if you live in Florida
Speaker 2: and see why she thinks it's okay for her to
Speaker 2: get an abortion to save her life, but she's okay
Speaker 2: with her constituents bleeding to death. Fucking scum. These people
Speaker 2: are scum. I don't know how this even came out.
Speaker 2: I truly, like five minutes before we sat down to record,
Speaker 2: I saw it and I was like, I can make
Speaker 2: a call into the DC office.
Speaker 1: And oh I saw a photo. I saw a photo
Speaker 1: of her with an article like in my feet and
Speaker 1: was like, she looks very smug in the photo, Like
Speaker 1: she looks very like yeah, it's you know, that's the
Speaker 1: whole Republican thing is like what's good for me, not
Speaker 1: for thee or whatever, you know, Like they're fine with
Speaker 1: whatever they get gift for themselves. Like and uh, like
Speaker 1: my own parents are like that. When I talk to them,
Speaker 1: I'm like, my mom is like I love my mom
Speaker 1: to death, but she's like, I would have helped you
Speaker 1: get an abortion if you needed one, but I disagree
Speaker 1: with abortion. It's like what you know, like it doesn't
Speaker 1: make any fucking sense. I can't make it make sense,
Speaker 1: but you know, I feel like raging at someone. I
Speaker 1: literally have the people voting for Cuomo. It's like, are
Speaker 1: you guys honestly?
Speaker 2: I brought up Luigi again sorry on stage, and I
Speaker 2: you know, I said some fox up shit and the
Speaker 2: audience got weird, and I go, grow up.
Speaker 4: I'm like, are you guys crazy?
Speaker 2: He's being charged with terrorism but not the fucking gunman
Speaker 2: and Minnesota who killed people that work for the government,
Speaker 2: Like do you are you guys stupid?
Speaker 4: Like I truly like, are you guys stupid?
Speaker 2: And then some people clapped, and then some people were uncomfortable,
Speaker 2: but it was just like I.
Speaker 1: Don't know, I barely read. Why do I see it?
Speaker 4: Like I don't get I don't get it.
Speaker 2: I don't get the established I don't get being like, yeah,
Speaker 2: the government's not lying, everything's fine.
Speaker 4: Like I don't get it.
Speaker 1: I barely read. Oh man, I'm not gonna start, but
Speaker 1: we okay, we're not. There's gonna be an s few episode.
Speaker 1: We'll fucking cover it then.
Speaker 2: Sorry, you haven't gotten your little Karen Read fix here
Speaker 2: on this podcast. But she's free and we're happy about it,
Speaker 2: and you're what we're happy about it. I'm happy about it.
Speaker 2: I'm happy about it.
Speaker 1: Like I just what an insane I can't wait for
Speaker 1: there to be Like I watched the Karen Read documentary
Speaker 1: five part thing on HBO. I guess that was about
Speaker 1: like that was like Karen's behind it. But I really
Speaker 1: want someone to do like a comprehensive like everything documentary
Speaker 1: about the whole trial, the first trial, the second trial,
Speaker 1: the whole thing, because the second trial seemed like a
Speaker 1: fucking circus even more than the first. So but I'm
Speaker 1: glad that she's off. It's it was insane that she
Speaker 1: was even being charged with the charge she was getting.
Speaker 1: But she did get drunk driving, and that's true something
Speaker 1: she was doing and that's.
Speaker 2: Fine, but it's like all you cops, you couldn't even
Speaker 2: pin a crime on one dumb bitch, and like you
Speaker 2: know what I mean, like it's fun you're doing it,
Speaker 2: but like you couldn't even you had to google. Like
Speaker 2: you're the ones finding people an evidence and charging people
Speaker 2: and you couldn't figure out how to get Like fuck
Speaker 2: you God.
Speaker 1: I really have been over using the word scum. And
Speaker 1: I don't think there's I mean, I think it's great.
Speaker 1: I think it's your word of the moment, and that's
Speaker 1: totally fine. I Also, the thing that's crazy about these
Speaker 1: people is like, did I call.
Speaker 4: The DC office fascist scum? Yes?
Speaker 1: Yes, I go.
Speaker 4: I hope you don't sleep at night, you fascist scum.
Speaker 1: It's so funny because scum is such a bad word
Speaker 1: on the internet. Remember when our friend got banned from
Speaker 1: Facebook for just writing men are scum.
Speaker 4: Oh but that's yeah.
Speaker 2: But if you wrote, like something else's scum, I think
Speaker 2: it'd be fine. If you wrote democrats are scum, it'd
Speaker 2: be okay. Yeah, it was a men are because you
Speaker 2: couldn't say I hate men or all men's SuDS.
Speaker 1: And I thought the word scum was that. I was
Speaker 1: like oh scumbag, you know, like it's a word i'd
Speaker 1: stay in front of my kids practically, And I think
Speaker 1: some people think it's really.
Speaker 2: Distas the word on the Jersey Housewives that they were
Speaker 2: like so fucking mad at And I was like, I
Speaker 2: didn't even know that was a bad word.
Speaker 4: It was something so.
Speaker 1: Like bozo like it was, but it was like maybe
Speaker 1: it was rab it was. I googled it. I googled it.
Speaker 1: I didn't think of it. I googled, I wrote bad
Speaker 1: word all h O NJ really quick and I got
Speaker 1: a People thought O slob was so bad.
Speaker 2: Okay, but it's like, but I do I want to
Speaker 2: do just another timely thing. I watched Game seven, so
Speaker 2: you probably don't care, but it was the Pacers and
Speaker 2: the thunder were playing, oh, very young teams. I don't
Speaker 2: know if you saw this, but no one could really
Speaker 2: drink on the Oklahoma team and they didn't know how
Speaker 2: to open champagne and they didn't know what to do
Speaker 2: and so like no, like they needed help to open
Speaker 2: the bottles. One guy had his first beer ever and
Speaker 2: like grimaced, like they didn't know.
Speaker 4: How to party through. Oh my god, that's so funny.
Speaker 1: And it was cute to me. It's like you, but
Speaker 1: I bet they went to.
Speaker 4: A strip club after and like had tequila.
Speaker 3: Hope.
Speaker 2: But or it's just you know what we say that
Speaker 2: youth aren't really doing that stuff.
Speaker 4: But it's this young.
Speaker 2: Young team and no one really partied or knew how
Speaker 2: to party, just like sports dorks.
Speaker 1: But sports dorks. Well, but I went to a sports
Speaker 1: bar and I have to show you the mural that
Speaker 1: was there because I think you're gonna get a hoot
Speaker 1: out of it. Okay, hold on, so and you can
Speaker 1: explain it as you look at it. Actually, Okay, wow,
Speaker 1: this is wild. Okay. This is like a classic mural
Speaker 1: of like Jesus Christ, Like he's not on the cross,
Speaker 1: but his arms are splayed out welcoming with like the
Speaker 1: sort of sunshine panels in the background that's like very clear,
Speaker 1: like this is your Lord and savior Jesus Christ. And
Speaker 1: then over him is a soccer ball, a rugby ball,
Speaker 1: a baseball, a hockey puck just in like, and he's
Speaker 1: right next to a electric labat sign I mean that is.
Speaker 4: And you and there's a scroll in the score.
Speaker 2: The scroll says if sports were a religion, this would
Speaker 2: be heaven, but I had to bring up the thunder.
Speaker 4: Of course I.
Speaker 1: Think, yeah a lot, Yeah, yeah, this was fine, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, then we have a horrific episode. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: have a horrific episode. This is uh this episode comes
Speaker 1: out July first, Happy fourth of July, everybody that could
Speaker 1: be our last one and uh, you know, let's get going.
Speaker 1: Okay today what a treat and also a nightmare. We
Speaker 1: are doing the episode Manhunt, which is episode eighteen from
Speaker 1: the second season.
Speaker 2: And well we got into this because I was in
Speaker 2: a hotel and SVU just came on as a marathon
Speaker 2: this episode and I was watching it edge of my
Speaker 2: CEA had no recollection of this.
Speaker 1: I had no recollection of it when I was watching it,
Speaker 1: but I know I've seen it, no, and then I
Speaker 1: I've watched it twice to get ready for this, and
Speaker 1: I still can't comprehend, Like I don't know why I
Speaker 1: will seep into my brain, so you know, I can't
Speaker 1: wait for this recap.
Speaker 2: But this was like fresh off because we both don't
Speaker 2: have memories of it. So it's like me watching TV
Speaker 2: being like we got.
Speaker 1: To do this. Yeah, it's like I know that the
Speaker 1: episode Parasites, which is one of my favorite episodes ever
Speaker 1: with the twins and like where they replace each other.
Speaker 1: We've done it on the podcast. That's the episode that
Speaker 1: follows this one, and like Countdown as a couple episodes
Speaker 1: before this, which is also a classic, the philipsy Moore
Speaker 1: Hoffman clown Party episode. I just don't understand how this
Speaker 1: one gaffigin What did I say? Oh my god, I
Speaker 1: need of course who I meant to say, but we
Speaker 1: have we're leaving it.
Speaker 4: No, no, let me leaving.
Speaker 1: That's leave it all right, leave it. I meant to
Speaker 1: say gaff again. I of course meant to say gaffagain.
Speaker 1: I was just thinking of a blonde man with like
Speaker 1: then they kept talking about how bad his teeth were,
Speaker 1: and it was definitely Gaffigan in my head. It was
Speaker 1: Gaffigan my mouth. The gaffagain was the he was the
Speaker 1: red herring. Anyways, The guy in the end wasn't gaff again,
Speaker 1: right right, It was a different guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, gaffagain played like a box picker upper, Yeah, like
Speaker 2: loading guy loading, and the main guy was Yeah.
Speaker 1: He had a bad teeth, because I don' think Gaffigan's
Speaker 1: teeth are bad anyway, Jim, if you're listening, I apologize, Okay, listen, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it just takes makes no sense that like I
Speaker 1: would not remember man Hunt. I also love Gaff again famously,
Speaker 1: he did say no to the pod. We did, we did,
Speaker 1: We asked, we asked. I asked him personally and he
Speaker 1: said not at this time. But Manhunt is just it's
Speaker 1: the kind of episode I would love, Like I love
Speaker 1: when they're going after a ceial, a ceial anything, like
Speaker 1: I'm always into that. And I just I this was
Speaker 1: like a pleasure honestly to like kind of redo it
Speaker 1: because I was, like, no one I remember Finn and
Speaker 1: Munch going on a road trip. I don't remember a
Speaker 1: lot of these details, Like I could not figure out
Speaker 1: who did it? So okay, Manhunt Season two, episode eighteen.
Speaker 1: This airs April of two thousand and one, just a
Speaker 1: few short months before nine to eleven. As you know,
Speaker 1: we always have to put it in time. So this
Speaker 1: couple of people, they it's a guy and a girl.
Speaker 1: They spill out of this twenty four hour diner onto
Speaker 1: the cold New York City street and he's begging her
Speaker 1: like please, Anny, one drink, one little drink, and his
Speaker 1: whining is annoying he's like one little drink and she's
Speaker 1: like listen, she's being nice. She's like, I'm tired. I
Speaker 1: smell like fries. He's like, I like fries. She's like,
Speaker 1: it's a pass, babe. I just want to go in
Speaker 1: my bath, get in my bed, and snuggle up with
Speaker 1: my People magazine.
Speaker 2: And I love that for her. She walks off and
Speaker 2: he's like, oh, also, it's like, yeah, nothing is as
Speaker 2: sexy as someone.
Speaker 1: Begging fine getting together, dude, I'm like not hot. He's
Speaker 1: walking off and he's like, oh, I like fries. I'm
Speaker 1: such an idiot. Whatever, and then she walks in the
Speaker 1: opposite direction, and then he hears muffled screams as this
Speaker 1: girl Annie, who we've just been looking at, is getting
Speaker 1: forcibly thrown into a car, and he tries to help her.
Speaker 1: He's like, hey, Annie, get off of her, and then
Speaker 1: the kidnapper pulls a gun. He backs off. Then we
Speaker 1: proceed to see the saddest attempt I've ever seen in
Speaker 1: history on this show of two men trying to stop
Speaker 1: a crime, Like diner guy literally goes to like touch
Speaker 1: the kidnapper on the back gently, and then another guy
Speaker 1: runs up and goes let her go very flatly as
Speaker 1: the kidnapper just pushes him to the side and drives off.
Speaker 1: Like both of these guys are like wait, no, stop,
Speaker 1: and it's like they're just trying to rub the guy's
Speaker 1: jacket like they don't do anything. And then they both
Speaker 1: run after the car, yelling come back here. It's like
Speaker 1: get the license play. I don't know. They're just not even.
Speaker 1: They're both run after the car yelling come back here.
Speaker 1: It's not working, and we see them both like falling
Speaker 1: onto the ground. They can't even chase after the vehicle
Speaker 1: without falling. Okay, the diner and our protectors men are
Speaker 1: protectors protecting us. You know, the good thing that we
Speaker 1: had these two men there useless Honestly, the choreography of
Speaker 1: it was bad.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: They the diner guy, his name is Butch if you
Speaker 1: can believe it, the least Butch man I've ever seen
Speaker 1: on the show. The Good Samaritan is named Marty Khani.
Speaker 1: That just reminds me of pulp fiction. And uh, now
Speaker 1: and then is that not Hanka's area's name. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Problems. Can I think of something that's not pop culture?
Speaker 1: Cinematrix Uh, well, this guy being named Butch is like
Speaker 1: funny to me. He doesn't look like a guy named Butch.
Speaker 4: Oh No, but that was Bud. Yeah, it separate names,
Speaker 4: but Bruce Willis's Butch.
Speaker 1: Do you want to hear something weird? I went to
Speaker 1: college with this guy named Alan normal, like the regular
Speaker 1: guy I knew. Suddenly, on all of his social media
Speaker 1: he's allan quote unquote Butch. Last name, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: say last And I'm like, and people are on there
Speaker 1: going happy birthday Butch, like on Facebook and stuff, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, post the age of twenty two, I mean
Speaker 1: I saw him after college, post the age of twenty five.
Speaker 1: This man took on the nickname Butch at a butcher shop. No,
Speaker 1: he's like a corporate man. It makes no sense to me.
Speaker 1: I don't get it.
Speaker 4: DM him give a same time.
Speaker 1: I need to be like, what happened with the Butcha?
Speaker 1: I need to know, all right, so Finn gets the
Speaker 1: scoop from uh Munch.
Speaker 2: It's very castanza now that I think about it, because
Speaker 2: maybe he pushed Butch on people.
Speaker 4: I keep thinking.
Speaker 2: Maybe it happened naturally in a different thing, like he
Speaker 2: started playing volleyball. I don't know, right, It's like, if
Speaker 2: that was your why is it on all your social
Speaker 2: Like your social is usually for connecting to people that
Speaker 2: you like know from the past, and like, it's weird
Speaker 2: that that's like not what anybody was ever calling you
Speaker 2: in college or maybe it was a high school nickname
Speaker 2: that He's like, I'm going to get back into it.
Speaker 1: It's very confusing. Never heard of it until we were
Speaker 1: like in our late twenties and I see his post
Speaker 1: pop up and be like, but anyway, weird. So Finn
Speaker 1: gets to scoop from munch, who uh oh recognizes the
Speaker 1: em o of this girl getting kidnapped, right, there was
Speaker 1: chloroform found at the scene to knock her out like that,
Speaker 1: because you didn't.
Speaker 2: Really hear chloroform each other? Make people pay for a
Speaker 2: live stream. I want to know what it feels like.
Speaker 2: Does is it permanent brain damage or not?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Like, can you do just like a little bit
Speaker 1: where you get a little bit woozy and then or.
Speaker 4: Like, I bet people would pay to watch this chloroform
Speaker 4: each other.
Speaker 1: Weigh in. Let us know if you guys would pay
Speaker 1: them to watch us just do a gentle chloroforming of
Speaker 1: one another. But Jared has a really funny joke about
Speaker 1: chloroform where he talks about how like people have so
Speaker 1: many guns and they act like that's not weird. He's like,
Speaker 1: it's just weird that you have thirty guns, Like if
Speaker 1: I had, what if I just invited you over my
Speaker 1: house and I said, and this is my collection of
Speaker 1: chloroform soaked rags. I don't use it to hurt people.
Speaker 1: I just like to have it, you know. And they
Speaker 1: were just like hanging on the wall like you'd be like,
Speaker 1: that's fucking weird.
Speaker 4: So back to this, Yeah, we're really not getting far.
Speaker 1: The chloroform Munch is like the chloroform were in the
Speaker 1: cold open Yeah, oh yeah baby, or no, we're even
Speaker 1: we're not even past. So the chloroform, the ceiling of
Speaker 1: the of the girl off the street, like it all
Speaker 1: matches the same mo Last summer, a guy kidnapped four
Speaker 1: women the same way, raped and tortured them and left
Speaker 1: their bodies stacked in a warehouse. And Finn's like, oh,
Speaker 1: the Bowery Stalker. I know about that. So they go
Speaker 1: and they talk to Marty and Butch, who remembers a lot.
Speaker 1: Butch is like, I've maybe seen the guy in the
Speaker 1: diner a couple times, like I noticed a tattoo of
Speaker 1: a cat on his right forearm. And then the EMT
Speaker 1: interrupts and is like, we got to get him on
Speaker 1: the bus. And it's like they literally fell chasing a car.
Speaker 1: Like one of them has a bandage around his knee.
Speaker 1: You have to take him in the ambulance right now,
Speaker 1: Like I feel like I got a really cold right
Speaker 1: And then Finn is like, all right, how long do
Speaker 1: you think we have that the Stalker will keep this
Speaker 1: girl alive? And Munch goes until he's finished with her. Yikes,
Speaker 1: I hate dare Why no so credits And now the
Speaker 1: top of act one, we're at the precinct. This is,
Speaker 1: by the way, a Munch and fin focused episode, Like
Speaker 1: we get Benson and Stabler up top here a little bit.
Speaker 1: They're sprinkled, but we don't get a lot of them
Speaker 1: in this episode. This is we are testing the chemistry
Speaker 1: of Richard Belzer and Ic who have just become partners,
Speaker 1: you know, like Icy only joined in this season. So
Speaker 1: the Stalker they're filling in. Benson and Stabler are talking
Speaker 1: to Kragan, they're filling in Cabot. The Stalker hasn't attacked
Speaker 1: in a year. They thought maybe he went underground in
Speaker 1: walks Munch and he's like, they're like, you're late. He's like,
Speaker 1: I've been up all night interviewing witnesses. And they're like, well,
Speaker 1: the DA wants answers. This is a top priority for her.
Speaker 1: You can have warrants, labs, whatever you need. And he's like,
Speaker 1: why all the backup all of a sudden, And Cabot's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: the DA just knows how elusive this guy's been. And
Speaker 1: Munch is like all paranoid. It's like, oh, because I
Speaker 1: didn't get him last time, is that why now you're
Speaker 1: trying to like help me. It's like whatever. Daddy Kraign
Speaker 1: tries to calm baby down, but he's annoyed. He's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: if I'm the lead on this case, then why are
Speaker 1: you guys meeting without me right now? This is my case?
Speaker 1: And he's like you're still the primary, but you might
Speaker 1: need backup, and like our only agenda is catching this guy.
Speaker 1: And it's like even Munch gets caught up in the
Speaker 1: whole my case, my glory, territorial mail cop bullshit, you know,
Speaker 1: like Munch doesn't do this much later on, but here
Speaker 1: it's like we're seeing even this guy is like, wait,
Speaker 1: this is mine, when it's like, if you all just
Speaker 1: worked as a fucking team, you could just get it done.
Speaker 1: Munch walks and talks and fills cabin in on everything
Speaker 1: he knows about a year ago, this girl named Sarah
Speaker 1: Kimmel stumbled into a bar on Avenue, d naked, beaten
Speaker 1: and claiming that a man with a beard imprisoned her
Speaker 1: in an abandoned warehouse on Broom. When they raided the warehouse,
Speaker 1: they found a makeshift sell torture instruments and formutilated bodies,
Speaker 1: some partials, but nothing in the system. And uh. They
Speaker 1: stayed on the building for a month but nothing came
Speaker 1: of it, and this guy just vanished. So Finn busts
Speaker 1: in with some news about the tattoo. They got a
Speaker 1: hit a scale named Frank Tark Taggart on parole for
Speaker 1: assault and he works at the fish market. So I
Speaker 1: didn't I don't know where the fish market is. Is
Speaker 1: there a fish market down oh, South Street, Seaport? Probably? Okay,
Speaker 1: So they go down to the fish market and Finn
Speaker 1: is talking shit about how desperate you have to be
Speaker 1: to work at a place like this, and Munch is like, oh,
Speaker 1: I worked here as a kid, like and it's just so.
Speaker 4: Funny because he's like ough the.
Speaker 1: Fish market and Lunch is like, yeah, brings me back
Speaker 1: to my childhood. And Finn can't believe that Munch ever
Speaker 1: got any ass after working a shift in like a
Speaker 1: smelly fish dump all day, and Munch is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: two words aqua velva, a hot shower and some aqua velva.
Speaker 1: You smell like victim Oone who I had to google.
Speaker 1: He's a big band singer from the fifties. And you
Speaker 1: can always trust Munch to have his finger on the
Speaker 1: pulse with the references. Okay, So now there's a guy
Speaker 1: at the fish market who's never been happier to see Munch,
Speaker 1: and his name is Olivetti. Munch calls him olive and
Speaker 1: he's like Olive and he's like Munchie. They hug. They
Speaker 1: are childhood friends. So this guy Munch got out of
Speaker 1: the fish market job and became an s VU detective.
Speaker 1: Olivetti he stayed at the fish market forever and they're like,
Speaker 1: where's Frank Taggart. He points them to him, and uh, like,
Speaker 1: whoever is doing the fight choreography on this episode was
Speaker 1: out sick or something for this episode, because this guy
Speaker 1: like slow walks towards Finn, grabs Finn and just places
Speaker 1: him slowly on a table full of fish and ice.
Speaker 1: It's very not scary, it's not threatening. Finn probably should
Speaker 1: have been able to like defend himself, and then Munch
Speaker 1: pulls a gun and they've got this guy's dumb ass,
Speaker 1: but the whole thing is so slow. It's just like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, watch it again. It's really slow and bad.
Speaker 1: Finn's also pissed at the guy. He's like, now you've
Speaker 1: got my coat all fishy, it's a new coat. And
Speaker 1: then Munch again callback goes aqua velva, so well, now
Speaker 1: you know this guy also, like you didn't think assaulting
Speaker 1: a cop was going to get you brought in like
Speaker 1: you are. You've literally been in prison before, like you
Speaker 1: know how this works. So in interrogation, Munch and Finn
Speaker 1: are talking to Taggart about his tattoo and he's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's an original from Elmo's Tats on Eighth Street, and
Speaker 1: he's got an alibi from the night before he was
Speaker 1: working the door at Rusty's Bar and Finn tells Taggert, well,
Speaker 1: we like you for this kidnapping, and he's like, I
Speaker 1: was nowhere near that place of that kidnapping, and any
Speaker 1: witness who puts me there is lying. You kind of
Speaker 1: believe him because A Nope, they never catch the guy
Speaker 1: in the first five minutes of the show, so it's
Speaker 1: probably not him. But now they're filling in Kragan, and
Speaker 1: the bartender at Rusty says that Taggart did duck out
Speaker 1: around eleven, so he did have time to get to
Speaker 1: the diner, so his alibi is not even fully full proof.
Speaker 1: But the car isn't registered to him because they basically
Speaker 1: everyone has identified what they keep calling a four by four,
Speaker 1: but it's a pat it's like a SUV and that
Speaker 1: car there's no car registered to him, but he may
Speaker 1: have stolen it. They're gonna put this guy in a
Speaker 1: lineup for the witnesses, and they're like, go get Sarah Kimmel,
Speaker 1: go get the victim who got away, Go get the girl.
Speaker 1: Let's re traumatize her. And Munch doesn't want to do it.
Speaker 1: He's like, I don't want to fuck with this girl.
Speaker 1: This guy fucked her up, like traumatized her, like she
Speaker 1: was escaped and wanted into a bar naked and beaten.
Speaker 1: Come on. But Craigan's like, you know how it works, buddy,
Speaker 1: you gotta do it, so now. Butcher's at the lineup
Speaker 1: and he's like, I don't I don't know if I
Speaker 1: see him. I really only noticed the tattoo and the gun.
Speaker 1: And when I was watching the scene, he's not wearing
Speaker 1: anything over his face, is he like, when the guy takes.
Speaker 2: Her, I told you, I don't remember anything. I'm sitting
Speaker 2: in in my seat.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I thought it was like weird that you
Speaker 1: didn't look at his face at all. But anyway, and
Speaker 1: so he he's like, all I focused on was the
Speaker 1: tattoo and the gun he was holding on me. And
Speaker 1: then Marty Potter comes in there and erroneously identifies a cop.
Speaker 1: He's like, how around, Oh, yes, okay, Richard in Chicago.
Speaker 1: I can't believe you just used that word. I did
Speaker 1: a dance in school in my Dan's clause one time
Speaker 1: to a song that Moses supposes his toses or roses,
Speaker 1: but Moses supposes erroneously, and that's how I know that
Speaker 1: word and how why I say it all the time.
Speaker 1: But he erroneously says it's number five, number five, and
Speaker 1: number five is a fucking cop who's in the lineup
Speaker 1: as a as a plant. So now Sarah bad's for sex.
Speaker 1: Now you have this girl taken, and now you can't
Speaker 1: even get a look at the guy's face. You brush
Speaker 1: your hand against the vicens, play anything, nothing, just staring
Speaker 1: at the tattoo. So and he's like, I think I
Speaker 1: might have seen him in the diner. It's like, if
Speaker 1: you saw him in the diner, you would kind of
Speaker 1: know what his face looked like. I don't know. So
Speaker 1: now it's up to Sarah the victim, and either in
Speaker 1: an office at the precinct. Sarah looks nervous. She doesn't
Speaker 1: want to id this monster. And Sarah Kimmel's played by
Speaker 1: Anna Bellknap, who was actually just in a season twenty
Speaker 1: four episode called A Trauma and a Pear Tree, which
Speaker 1: I think is the episode where Rollin's and Creasy get married.
Speaker 1: But I don't know what the plot of that episode
Speaker 1: is because it's in a more recent season and I
Speaker 1: tried to find it but I couldn't. But I wanted
Speaker 1: to give you one little fun tidbit. She is married
Speaker 1: to the man who wrote the Emoji movie. I thought
Speaker 1: you would like that because I know you like the
Speaker 1: Emoji movie too, so Anna bell Knap. So Sarah is
Speaker 1: telling Munch like, I have to keep my lights on,
Speaker 1: like and he's like, oh, we're not going to let
Speaker 1: him hurt you. This guy's not gonna hurt you anymore
Speaker 1: or whatever, and she's like, I have to sleep with
Speaker 1: my lights on because I think I see him in
Speaker 1: my apartment. Like I'm twenty eight and I'm living on
Speaker 1: disability because I can't leave the house. Don't tell me
Speaker 1: he can't hurt me, you know. And Munch is like,
Speaker 1: all right, well he might have someone else, like he
Speaker 1: might have another victim, And that's what kind of convinces
Speaker 1: her to do it. So in the room at the lineup,
Speaker 1: she gets really upset. She's trembling, but then she turns
Speaker 1: to Munch and goes, he's not there. She's crowned through
Speaker 1: t She's like, he's not there, He's not in there,
Speaker 1: which is probably making her scared because that means he's
Speaker 1: still fucking out there. Munch and Finn take her home,
Speaker 1: and Munch is mad because he's like, I didn't want
Speaker 1: to have to bring her in. But I would also
Speaker 1: say that if you guys suspect that this killer is
Speaker 1: back on the loose, you'd put a uniform on her house.
Speaker 1: She's the only surviving victim, Like, she's the only person
Speaker 1: that could actually like id him if he does get
Speaker 1: brought in, So wouldn't you protect her? Like he's back
Speaker 1: in the city where she was attacked, Like, but they
Speaker 1: just drop her off at her house, and Ben Munch
Speaker 1: is pissed, Like, but it's like lighting a fire under
Speaker 1: him that they want to get this guy. Finn suggests
Speaker 1: that maybe Taggart's tattoo from Elmo's wasn't as original as
Speaker 1: he thought it was. So now they're at the tattoo
Speaker 1: shop and I'm calling the guy Elmo. It's not his name,
Speaker 1: but the guy who is the tattoo artist at Elmo's.
Speaker 1: He is a huge fan of the tattoo. But he's like,
Speaker 1: but it's not my work. He's like, it's gorgeous art,
Speaker 1: but it's not mine. A guy brought it in last
Speaker 1: summer on a sketch and asked me to do the tattoo,
Speaker 1: and he left me this sketch as a bonus, as
Speaker 1: he thought my work was so good. He's like, I've
Speaker 1: done him on a few other people, but I could
Speaker 1: count on one hand how many most people are into
Speaker 1: goth these days, he says. And he doesn't. He's like,
Speaker 1: I don't really keep names and addresses of my clients.
Speaker 1: It's not really that kind of operation. And but he
Speaker 1: can immediately describe every single person he's given that specific
Speaker 1: tattoo to a guy with a cat on a leash,
Speaker 1: a woman wrestler, a guy who smells like rotten fish,
Speaker 1: and then the guy who brought in the sketch, who
Speaker 1: was a huge guy with a beard.
Speaker 2: And this is so SVU to me because this guy
Speaker 2: is like like if I was getting a tattoo while
Speaker 2: someone was being talked to by the police, I'd be like,
Speaker 2: you guys could finish your comvo, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: But he's like he's like putting it out, he's like
Speaker 1: getting to work on the I'm like, just take a moment.
Speaker 1: I can't believe the guy didn't complain, like so classic
Speaker 1: s yeah, I understand even lugging boxes or making drinks
Speaker 1: by like actively tattooing, right right, And like I don't
Speaker 1: know who would be like I don't want to hear
Speaker 1: what's going on with the cops in this juicy investi
Speaker 1: gation right now, just get my tattoo done, like i'd
Speaker 1: be like I want to listen, you know.
Speaker 4: But he.
Speaker 1: Says that the guy that brought in the sketch said
Speaker 1: that the Bobcat was like a platoon his platoon's name,
Speaker 1: mascot or something in the service. And this guy truly
Speaker 1: never forgets a goddamn thing, Like he has so many
Speaker 1: details about this sketch. And he tells them that they
Speaker 1: can take the sketch with him. So now we're talking
Speaker 1: to a tech who does not make as big of
Speaker 1: an oppression as like a Bert Trevor. And he's managed
Speaker 1: to get a couple of prints off the sketch, and
Speaker 1: one set of prints belonged to Elmo and the other
Speaker 1: belonged to John Doe. And he ran that those John
Speaker 1: Doe prints through the system and got a hit on
Speaker 1: Darryl R. Kern, who was dishonorably discharged from the military
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety nine, right around when the original attacks started.
Speaker 1: So now a whole team is there and they bust
Speaker 1: into this guy's apartment. It's like the full tactical open
Speaker 1: up NYPD. They bust in there. This loser's got guns, knives, weapons,
Speaker 1: all this kind of shit mounted up on the wall
Speaker 1: like a little shrine to his tiny dick. And Finn
Speaker 1: says something like he's impressed by it, but I can't
Speaker 1: tell if it's sarcastic or not. But you know, early Finn,
Speaker 1: they hadn't had they didn't have him fleshed out yet
Speaker 1: he was like cool guns, Like I don't know. So
Speaker 1: they're like, check out his easy pass bill. So now
Speaker 1: we're at the precinct and Munch and Finn are filling
Speaker 1: inventson and Sabler, and this guy basically takes the same
Speaker 1: route all the way, all the time, back and forth
Speaker 1: to upstate New York. Like not the fucking Hudson River Valley.
Speaker 1: We're talking to Utica. We're talking way up there in
Speaker 1: the top of the state, near the Canadian border. And
Speaker 1: this guy drives a ninety two pathfinder which matches the
Speaker 1: car that's been described for taking Annie. And then two
Speaker 1: days after he makes the trip up there again, if
Speaker 1: you're a serial killer, you're probably not using an easy pass.
Speaker 1: But whatever, I'm again not here to give people tips
Speaker 1: and tricks. My dad won't get an easy pass because
Speaker 1: he doesn't want the government tracking him.
Speaker 2: So Dad takes your family garbage to the dump. He's
Speaker 2: obvious unhinged.
Speaker 1: But even he in his paranoia and he's not committing
Speaker 1: heinous murders, doesn't use an easy pass. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: it's so insane. I just got one, my first one
Speaker 1: actually as a fuck you, So now I can get
Speaker 1: to the airport really quickly. So two days after he
Speaker 1: takes that route up there, he takes the same route back.
Speaker 1: And they know this because they've got all this easy
Speaker 1: pass record, and they figured out that like seven women
Speaker 1: have gone missing within days of these trips, both like
Speaker 1: the outbound and the inbound trips to New York. So
Speaker 1: Daddy Craigan is like, boys, pack your bags, you're going
Speaker 1: up north. So then when we see a car pulling
Speaker 1: into small town upstate New York, and Munch and Finn
Speaker 1: are bickering like an old married couple. Like Munch doesn't
Speaker 1: like Finn's driving. He feels sick because he was driving
Speaker 1: so bad. And now they're in Walden Falls, New York,
Speaker 1: and boy, oh boy, the locals are pumped. The secretary
Speaker 1: goes chief the detectives from New York City are here,
Speaker 1: Like she's psyched. She's like, tell me about Broadway and
Speaker 1: the chief is like, oh, hi, boys, you want like
Speaker 1: a soda pop or something like this guy is. We've
Speaker 1: seen this man in so much stuff. His name is
Speaker 1: Adam Lefev. He is so familiar. He's got one hundred
Speaker 1: and forty plus credits. He's been in three other svus,
Speaker 1: He's been in a bunch of episodes of Original Recipe.
Speaker 1: If you google him right now, Adam Lefev, like, you'll
Speaker 1: be like, he I've seen him in so many things.
Speaker 1: He's just like a character guy that you see all
Speaker 1: the time. He's so small town upstate New York police chief.
Speaker 1: He's like, oh, boys, okay, let's get going. So then
Speaker 1: they ask him about Darryl Kern. He's like, well, I've
Speaker 1: never heard of him, and I know everybody in this town.
Speaker 1: And you're like, okay, yeah, I don't think the serial
Speaker 1: killers that flee up to your town like check in
Speaker 1: at the precinct when they get there, and then they
Speaker 1: are going to have Officer Cheryl Baxter. She walks in.
Speaker 1: She's gonna help them out, and they're like She's like
Speaker 1: you guys want to settle in or hit the gas
Speaker 1: station first, and they're like, we don't actually need to
Speaker 1: like go unpack at our hotel. We could go just
Speaker 1: get this guy. So they go to the gas station.
Speaker 1: The guy who works at the gas station, he can't
Speaker 1: really identify a photo of Annie, but he's like, uh no,
Speaker 1: but the guy that you're looking for, he likes to
Speaker 1: hunt because he spent a lot of time over at
Speaker 1: Jordie's Guns and Ammo, which is right across the street.
Speaker 1: So now they're at Jordi's Guns and Ammo, and the
Speaker 1: guy there goes, oh, yeah, that guy that's Arnold Cokeley
Speaker 1: looking at a picture of Darryl Kern. And this guy
Speaker 1: Jordi is being very Cagy, classic gun salesman to a enthusiast,
Speaker 1: you know, like just completely like uh was illegal to
Speaker 1: have guns? Like why are you guys asking all these questions?
Speaker 1: And then he's like they're like, uh, you got to
Speaker 1: give us his file, and it's like he kind of protests,
Speaker 1: but he knows he's gonna have to, so he just
Speaker 1: goes and gets it. And now before sharing his opinion
Speaker 1: that the government is up everyone's ass and it's beginning
Speaker 1: to be like Russia around here, and Munch is like,
Speaker 1: Russia's a democracy now, and he's like that's what I mean.
Speaker 1: And it's like, I don't know if anything makes sense
Speaker 1: that you're talking about, sir, but he hands over the
Speaker 1: file on Arnold Cokeley. So back at walden Falls PD,
Speaker 1: Finn is impressed that they have all their files computerized
Speaker 1: because they don't have that at SVU yet and walden
Speaker 1: Falls is like, they probably don't have as many crimes,
Speaker 1: but they're all on a computer system, and then Munch
Speaker 1: pops in with some hot goss. Arnold Cochley and his
Speaker 1: wife went missing from Tribeca five months ago, and someone
Speaker 1: is using his ID to buy weapons, which means that
Speaker 1: now the ATF is getting involved, and Baxter tells them, well,
Speaker 1: we have no match for property under the name Cochley
Speaker 1: or Kern, and they're like, well, check the names of
Speaker 1: all the other people who have gone missing along this
Speaker 1: route that we've discovered, right, which feels like there would
Speaker 1: be way more people missing from New York City than
Speaker 1: just like a couple, like than even seven, but whatever,
Speaker 1: And so we cut to Munch and Finn sharing a
Speaker 1: shitty hotel room in Upstate New York. This is like
Speaker 1: the precursor to when Live in Rollins are having their
Speaker 1: cute little girls wine night, but then they discovered that
Speaker 1: there's a camera behind the mirror. This is the way
Speaker 1: earlier version, and it's Munch and and they are pissed
Speaker 1: that they have to be in the same room together.
Speaker 1: Finn is like, God, when I was in narcotics, we
Speaker 1: got cool apartments. I got put up in the West
Speaker 1: Village once, like when I was undercover. And then he's like,
Speaker 1: then I had to go home to my tiny shoe
Speaker 1: box in Brooklyn, and I was bumping into the furniture
Speaker 1: because I was used to the lap of luxury. And
Speaker 1: Munch goes, wow, eight months of the cold shoulder, and
Speaker 1: now I can't shut you up, which is funny, and
Speaker 1: he asks Finn, like, why did you leave narcotics. He's like,
Speaker 1: my partner took a bullet that was meant for me,
Speaker 1: and it took all the fun out of it. We
Speaker 1: later find out who that partner is when he goes
Speaker 1: kind of a little bit cuckoo and start sniping people.
Speaker 1: Or no, it's not even him, it's his daughter. Remember
Speaker 1: it's not him, it's his daughter. They think it's him.
Speaker 1: It's his daughter, and he asks much why did you
Speaker 1: leave Homicide and he's like, well, after my last marriage
Speaker 1: broke up, I came back to New York from Baltimore.
Speaker 1: As we all know, Munch is one of the most
Speaker 1: featured characters in multiple shows. He was in homicide, Life
Speaker 1: on the Streets and which took place in Baltimore, I believe, right.
Speaker 1: And then when he came back to New York City
Speaker 1: after that marriage broke up, SVU was the only place
Speaker 1: that had space for him, and he thought it was
Speaker 1: going to be all great, but living victims fuck you up,
Speaker 1: you know. And then he gets a phone call. It's
Speaker 1: Stabler and basically they found out that going through kerrn stuff,
Speaker 1: they found blueprints for a bomb shelter that was drawn
Speaker 1: up by a contractor in walden Farms, New York, in
Speaker 1: this little town that they're in. So he calls Baxter
Speaker 1: and is like, find the contractor, have him meet us
Speaker 1: at the precinct in twenty we're burning the midnight oil
Speaker 1: here in Walden Falls. So when they get to the
Speaker 1: Walden Falls precinct, the g sure you bet you a
Speaker 1: police chief is facing off with the Fed and they're
Speaker 1: as usual, two men having a pissing contest over jurisdiction,
Speaker 1: and the Fed's like, you're in over your head and
Speaker 1: the guy the they're like, this guy has a lot
Speaker 1: of firepower. And then Munch busts in and says, whatever,
Speaker 1: this FED is full of shit. And it turns out
Speaker 1: this guy's name is Gus Stone from the ATF, and
Speaker 1: he's like, step aside. And then Stone is like, you know,
Speaker 1: we have a warrant for Kern's arrest, and Munch is like, well,
Speaker 1: I have a lead in a case that could save
Speaker 1: a woman's life, So who takes precedence. The ATF just
Speaker 1: decides to kind of back off for the moment. Now
Speaker 1: they're looking at the blueprints. The contractor is there. He goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: this guy asked me to design a bunker for Armageddon
Speaker 1: and the race Wars, which is I know that there's
Speaker 1: been doomsday preppers for a long time, but this episode
Speaker 1: is from two thousand and one. Like that was pretty
Speaker 1: early to be getting on the doomsday prepping bandwagon, you know.
Speaker 1: I feel like that was later in the odds that
Speaker 1: that became a more widespread part of like the culture.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, for.
Speaker 2: Sure, but I'm thinking, like everyone every generation thinks like
Speaker 2: their world like the end is near. So I wonder
Speaker 2: if people were prepping in like the eighteen hundred or whatever,
Speaker 2: like religious nuts exist, sure, but part of the culture,
Speaker 2: I think, like, yeah, when they started putting it on,
Speaker 2: like A and E and thel Buckers and like, but
Speaker 2: now Cold War Cold War people had bunkers.
Speaker 1: The Mansons talked about the race wars. I mean that's
Speaker 1: what the Mansons were warning about, a race war like
Speaker 1: that was that's been going on forever. It's just making
Speaker 1: a bunker, like I know, the Cold War.
Speaker 4: There was a episode.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so I'm wrong, I guess I just think, like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm with you.
Speaker 2: But yeah, the guys the bomb shelter stuff, I think
Speaker 2: suring Cold war stuff people had those.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so anyway, this guy made it for him. He goes, Yep,
Speaker 1: sure did make this total wacko guy a bomb shelter.
Speaker 2: What I did learn is, even if those bomb shelter
Speaker 2: people were onto something and the world is obviously fucked,
Speaker 2: you don't want to spend time with them.
Speaker 1: No, I don't want them to be the last one
Speaker 1: surviving where they going to repopulate the earth. With all
Speaker 1: the people that thought to make a bunker. I don't
Speaker 1: think so, but this contractor goes, yes, I built this
Speaker 1: guy a bunker, and I built it ten miles away.
Speaker 1: So now everyone has decided they're gonna work together. They're
Speaker 1: gonna get all their guys together and nail this sick fuck.
Speaker 1: So now we've got lots of cops in the snowy
Speaker 1: woods surrounding a cabin. Okay, they slam the door, the
Speaker 1: guy's door open. It's very dramatic, but the guy's not there.
Speaker 1: But then the chief finds a cellar door. Munch goes
Speaker 1: down the cellar steps and done done. In a very
Speaker 1: very sad way, there is a dead woman lying in
Speaker 1: a pool of blood on the floor and it is Annie,
Speaker 1: and Munch says, kneels down and goes sorry Annie. And
Speaker 1: then they flash their flashlights on the wall and it
Speaker 1: is filled with torture equipment chains, Like it's fucking sick,
Speaker 1: and it's just awful because it's like it's possible that
Speaker 1: they were hours away from saving her, you know, like
Speaker 1: it doesn't look like she's been there for a ton
Speaker 1: of time. So cut to commercial on that gorgeous note,
Speaker 1: and when we come back, tons of bodies wrapped in
Speaker 1: plastic on the snowy ground. The troopers and all these
Speaker 1: people are digging up more. They've already found fifteen bodies
Speaker 1: buried in shallow graves, including three kids. They think Kern
Speaker 1: pulled out maybe an hour before they got there, and
Speaker 1: Finn thinks somebody must have tipped them off. So Monch
Speaker 1: is talking to the Emmy at the crime scene and
Speaker 1: she's pissed. This is like the Emmy up in Walden Falls,
Speaker 1: and she's like, no, I could have gone my entire
Speaker 1: life without seeing this shit that I just had to see,
Speaker 1: and you guys brought it to my doorstep. This woman
Speaker 1: had contusions, broken bones, bruises, I mean, penetration with a
Speaker 1: foreign object, and then he blew her face off with
Speaker 1: a forty four. So this man is like an absolute
Speaker 1: psychopath who's just like enjoying torturing women. And then they
Speaker 1: found something in the cabin that Munch needs to see.
Speaker 1: And they find this book and it's like an operational
Speaker 1: manual and it's but it's been it's like it's like
Speaker 1: a diary almost, and the last entry was dated yesterday
Speaker 1: and it says position compromised as long as the worm
Speaker 1: stays in the apple, rendezvous at the extraction point, operation terminated,
Speaker 1: Like it's written in all this kind of military language,
Speaker 1: but it's hand and like by this guy, they think.
Speaker 1: And Baxter, the woman cop from walden Falls, is like
Speaker 1: he must have had an accomplice. And they, you know,
Speaker 1: they all put their big brains together and they're like,
Speaker 1: the worm in the apple means they're headed back to
Speaker 1: the big apple, great decoding, great work back at SVU.
Speaker 1: The whole handbook thing they say, is written in pseudo
Speaker 1: military speak. And he calls the accomplice is always called
Speaker 1: the worm. He calls himself the Eagle. And essentially what
Speaker 1: they've discovered is that this guy kills. The reason why
Speaker 1: there are kids discovered is because he'll kill an entire
Speaker 1: family just to get their credit card to like keep
Speaker 1: going on his little mission here. He killed a plumber
Speaker 1: from Brooklyn for that cabin, so that cabin belonged to
Speaker 1: this plumber from Brooklyn, I think named Ernie. And Craigan
Speaker 1: is like this or they say the accomplice must be
Speaker 1: an army buddy if this is how they're communicating with this,
Speaker 1: like he must be an army buddy, so Craigan uses
Speaker 1: his military connects to get them some info. Now they're
Speaker 1: talking to some military guy who's like, yeah, the Bobcat
Speaker 1: like a platoon that this guy was in. They're elite
Speaker 1: special tactical ops. But Kern he spent most of his
Speaker 1: time in the kitchen. And they're like, we thought he
Speaker 1: was a weapon specialist and they're like, no, Basically, it
Speaker 1: basically seems like Kern was a psycho who came to
Speaker 1: the military because he liked to kill things. And he
Speaker 1: says that the final straw was like, there was a
Speaker 1: squirrel who used to hang out by the mess hall
Speaker 1: and at some point Kern killed it, skinned it, and
Speaker 1: then tried to put the meat of it into a
Speaker 1: stew to feed everybody. And he was sent to the
Speaker 1: brig for psychological testing and was diagnosed with antisocial personality
Speaker 1: disorder and pronounced unfit for duty. And did he hang
Speaker 1: out with anybody? They said, They're like, ah, this one
Speaker 1: guy who delivered dry goods to the mess hall. He
Speaker 1: worked out of a company. He worked at a company
Speaker 1: out of Brooklyn. So now they're at Magoo's vending company
Speaker 1: literally what it's called, and a manager tells them that Marvin.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he's one of my best guys. He's not
Speaker 1: working today because he has national goals. And they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: he's a weekend warrior, and he's like, yup. And then
Speaker 1: they go, did anyone mention that today's Thursday? Like he
Speaker 1: shouldn't be He wouldn't be working today if it's like
Speaker 1: his weekends, you know. And so the boss, the boss
Speaker 1: goes over to some guy and goes, hey, nu'mb nuts,
Speaker 1: you gotta smoke a whole pack or finish your run
Speaker 1: sometime today, like because the guy's smoking cigarettes and I
Speaker 1: just I love a guy like this. And he's like,
Speaker 1: I can give you Marvin's address, but I think he's
Speaker 1: in the wilderness somewhere. So they give him the address,
Speaker 1: They get his address, they surround his house, and this
Speaker 1: is like the third swatting of the episode. So I
Speaker 1: really have my fingers crossed that this one's gonna work out.
Speaker 1: They knock on the door and just as they're about
Speaker 1: to you know, bust down a third door and old
Speaker 1: lady opens the door and she's like, oh, hello, Marvin
Speaker 1: isn't here. He left this morning, are you guys? Friends
Speaker 1: of his? So now they're inside talking to this lady.
Speaker 1: She's bringing him tea and she's like, I'm Marvin's aunt Mary.
Speaker 1: His mother died when he was a child. Want to
Speaker 1: know how his father beat her to death with an
Speaker 1: iron because he didn't like the way she did his shirts.
Speaker 1: So that's Marvin's origin story. And she's like, he's always
Speaker 1: been a loving boy. And then she goes he's with
Speaker 1: the Green Berets, and we know Marvin is not with
Speaker 1: the Green Berets. He delivers for Magoo's vending, but he
Speaker 1: can't tell his aunt that he needs to live a
Speaker 1: life of glory in her eyes. Now she's whipped out
Speaker 1: a photo album and she's showing pictures of him and
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, there he is with his friend Darryl,
Speaker 1: and holy shit. The plot twist is that Marvin is
Speaker 1: fucking Marty the good Samaritan who tried to chase down
Speaker 1: the car, Like he wasn't trying to stop the car,
Speaker 1: he was trying to get in it when he was
Speaker 1: running after or like you know, but he did come
Speaker 1: up and go hey, come back here, stop or whatever,
Speaker 1: but maybe it was like all in ask the other
Speaker 1: guy was okay, wow, yeah, And what I didn't recognize
Speaker 1: at the beginning, either about this guy who was playing
Speaker 1: Marty when he was getting questioned or whatever. Is that
Speaker 1: he is the actor Paul Sparks who I recognize from
Speaker 1: tons of shit. He's in like thy episodes of House
Speaker 1: of Cards. He's the one that has an affair with
Speaker 1: Robin Wright pen the first lady in the House of Cards.
Speaker 1: And he's in that show The Better Sister that you
Speaker 1: just watched, and he's in Physical He's in like a lot.
Speaker 1: This man works a ton. What's the name, Paul Sparks.
Speaker 1: So now they're leaving this old lady's house and Munch
Speaker 1: is furious. He's like, we had this guy in our
Speaker 1: precinct and we didn't know it, Like we had this accomplice.
Speaker 1: And Finn gets a call that the state police found
Speaker 1: the Pathfinder outside of Walden Falls, and uh, supposedly a bald,
Speaker 1: clean shaven man got out and then carjacked a mother
Speaker 1: and a kid and took off. So this guy that
Speaker 1: they've all been looking for, a guy with a beard,
Speaker 1: he's obviously shaved fugitive style to you know, avoid detection.
Speaker 1: So back at has Few, they're brainstorming this guy's probably
Speaker 1: headed to Canada with these hostages. They're now trying to
Speaker 1: trace the phones that Kern and Marvin have been contacting
Speaker 1: each other with, and they can see that they're headed
Speaker 1: to the border, and Munch calls state police, and you
Speaker 1: know they're going to try to head these guys off
Speaker 1: before they make it over, or at least Kern, they're
Speaker 1: going to try to head him off before he crosses
Speaker 1: the border. So Munch and Finn are headed back on
Speaker 1: the road, but this time they're headed to the border.
Speaker 4: Baby.
Speaker 1: They spot two cars outside of a farmhouse and they
Speaker 1: think they can surprise these guys inside if they're there.
Speaker 1: Fourth time of the show, fourth time in one episode.
Speaker 1: Cops are surrounding this place. Okay, they spread out, guns drawn.
Speaker 1: It's atf it's state troopers, it's truly all of the
Speaker 1: law enforcement branches working in harmony. They like bust into
Speaker 1: the house and I don't think they're finding anything. Munch
Speaker 1: takes the shed. When he opens the shed, what does
Speaker 1: he find our good samaritan Marty slash accomplice Marvin strung up,
Speaker 1: bleeding out, and he's got two cell phones taped to
Speaker 1: his shirt. So this guy has been fucking with the
Speaker 1: NYPD and now he's just killed his accomplice to get away.
Speaker 1: Munch is having a full temper tantrum. He's kicking shit,
Speaker 1: he's yelling, son of a bitch. He does not like
Speaker 1: being played for a fool, and Finn explains, look, he
Speaker 1: still needs that mother and the kid, so like you know,
Speaker 1: and then Finn gets a call and the ATF is explaining, look,
Speaker 1: we've got an APB out for this guy, the borders
Speaker 1: on alert for him. And then Finn reports back from
Speaker 1: his phone call that it's like a freaky, deeky Robert
Speaker 1: Durst like a story. This guy just got busted for
Speaker 1: shoplifting in Mallory Town. Like you've committed all these horrible
Speaker 1: crimes and now you're gonna get busted shoplifting. It's wild,
Speaker 1: but that's exactly what happened to Robert Durst. So yeah,
Speaker 1: So Mallory Town is right over the border, and now
Speaker 1: the cops are in Ontario and Cabot is there as well,
Speaker 1: and they're like what are you doing here? And she's like,
Speaker 1: I'm here to serve an extradition warrant and Munch is like,
Speaker 1: let me talk to the hostages, like the mom and
Speaker 1: the daughter that they they found with him. The mom
Speaker 1: looks on edge. Okay, She's like, get me out of here.
Speaker 1: I want to get to the hospital when my daughter
Speaker 1: wakes up like I've been through hell. And finally she
Speaker 1: tells them what like the details. He had a knife
Speaker 1: when he abducted them. He threatened to kill her daughter.
Speaker 1: Then at the farmhouse where they just were, he asked
Speaker 1: an old lady for directions and when she turned her back,
Speaker 1: he cut her throat. And then the woman says, then
Speaker 1: her husband came running out and he cut his throat
Speaker 1: before he could even say anything. So she just watched
Speaker 1: this guy murder an old couple that lived in a farmhouse,
Speaker 1: you know, upstate in the in a blink of an eye.
Speaker 1: So she's traumatized. Then she says, Marvin Slash Marty showed
Speaker 1: up and he took him to the garage. She said
Speaker 1: she heard screams and then Kern came back covered in blood.
Speaker 1: He changed and told them to get into the farmer's
Speaker 1: truck that they were going to Canada. She starts crying.
Speaker 1: She's like, he said he was going to kill both
Speaker 1: of us, and he said that the police were so
Speaker 1: stupid that they would never find him, so Munch is
Speaker 1: even more pissed about this, like who cares about finding
Speaker 1: out that there's even more dead bodies? We are furious
Speaker 1: that he thinks the cops are dumb and that he
Speaker 1: is smarter than them. So now we're outside chatting. It's Munch,
Speaker 1: Finn and Cabot, and Finn points out that this guy
Speaker 1: gutted his partner when he was alive, Like the screams
Speaker 1: imply that this guy was like tortured alive, and you
Speaker 1: know now he's obviously murdered. He might be setting the
Speaker 1: grounds for an insanity defense, they think, because that's so
Speaker 1: cruel and unusual. They can't imagine that somebody saying would
Speaker 1: do that, And Cabot tells them a confession would really
Speaker 1: help them with the extradition, and Munch is like, let
Speaker 1: me get a run at this sky, and I want
Speaker 1: to do it alone, So here we go. He gets
Speaker 1: in there and he immediately insults the guy for getting
Speaker 1: busted shoplifting. He's like, what are you like an amateur?
Speaker 1: And the guy playing Kern is R. E. Rogers, who
Speaker 1: even crazier than I don't remember this episode is Tommy Callahan,
Speaker 1: the cop who gets fucked up on the malaria drugs
Speaker 1: in Goliath and starts attacking people and stuff. Remember we
Speaker 1: just did that episode with Amy Landecker. He was the
Speaker 1: one married to her. He's an OZ guy. He's an
Speaker 1: A yeah, and he's an OZ guy. It looks like
Speaker 1: he stopped acting a while ago. But I'm just surprised
Speaker 1: that I wasn't like, oh, yeah, he's the murderer in Manhunt,
Speaker 1: like you know what I mean. Like, so this this
Speaker 1: Manhunt episode is just honestly was hiding in the recesses
Speaker 1: of my brain and it's fucked up.
Speaker 2: And there's so many elements you know, like yeah, road trip, torture,
Speaker 2: missing women, carjack.
Speaker 1: So many swattings, like literally for swattings.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: But Munch is like trying to get info out of
Speaker 1: this guy and he's trying to play him right, He's like, Wow,
Speaker 1: it's just crazy. Everybody just wants to focus on all
Speaker 1: your mistakes, like he you know, he's appealing to this
Speaker 1: guy's sense of superiority, this guy's sense of perfectionism, like
Speaker 1: that he did everything right. And then he's like what mistakes, well,
Speaker 1: what mistakes And he's like, I mean, you're caught, bitch,
Speaker 1: what do you mean? Yeah, And he's like Sarah Kimmel,
Speaker 1: like how about her? Like you fully let a girl go,
Speaker 1: like one of your victims got away. And he's like
Speaker 1: that was Marvin's fault, like he was I had to
Speaker 1: go to work and he fucking let her out by
Speaker 1: accident or something. But I kept him around because he
Speaker 1: served a purpose. He's the one that got me. Ernie
Speaker 1: slashed the cabin like, so he confesses to murdering Ernie
Speaker 1: the cabin owner. He confesses to grabbing the koch LEAs
Speaker 1: off the street and then essentially torturing the wife for
Speaker 1: a few days and then killing both of them so
Speaker 1: that he could use their ID to buy weapons and stuff.
Speaker 1: And then Munch just asks him point blank how many
Speaker 1: and he's like, we already found eighteen of them, and
Speaker 1: the guy scoffs and he's like there's so many more
Speaker 1: and he's like, well, then, how many And he's like,
Speaker 1: I won't tell you. I'm not going to tell you,
Speaker 1: and Munch minch and Munch flips out because this guy's
Speaker 1: fucking with him, right. He flips out, and he's like,
Speaker 1: I've been one step ahead of you, guys since you
Speaker 1: found the warehouse. Are you kidding? I thought about you
Speaker 1: every time I took another victim, and when they were
Speaker 1: screaming for mercy, I had a little laugh at your expense,
Speaker 1: Like I'm laughing at you right now because you think
Speaker 1: you've won. And Munch is like, yeah, lol, I'll be
Speaker 1: laughing all the way to the electric chair when they
Speaker 1: stick a needle in your arm or whatever. But Kern
Speaker 1: knows the law. He goes Canada won't extradite on capital
Speaker 1: offenses unless the death penalty is waived. Maybe they didn't
Speaker 1: teach you that at the academy, but it's like, still,
Speaker 1: you're confessing to all these crimes and you're going to
Speaker 1: get life in prison, so that's better, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Munch is pissed and is asking Cabin about it, and
Speaker 1: she's like, yeah, Canada has gotten stricter about that. They
Speaker 1: don't want America killing people, so they're not sending extraditing people.
Speaker 1: And then she's like, why don't you just let me
Speaker 1: do my job? So now ooh la la, we are
Speaker 1: in Canadian court arguing all about it, and a judge
Speaker 1: is like, well, don't you think that Canada's just going
Speaker 1: to become a safe haven for absolute psychopaths, murdering freaks
Speaker 1: to come. They'll just run over the border and then go,
Speaker 1: you can't let me back if they're gonna kill me,
Speaker 1: you know. And Cabot's like, yes, listen, I totally understand
Speaker 1: your constitutional rules. I understand that you guys have this policy,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't apply here. We are not extraditing him
Speaker 1: for murder. We are extraditing him for the theft of
Speaker 1: a vehicle. They are extracting him for stealing the farmer's truck.
Speaker 1: And also they could probably extradite him for kidnapping, like
Speaker 1: these people, that's not a death penalty crime per se,
Speaker 1: but since the value of the car is more than
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars, this qualifies for extradition under Canadian law.
Speaker 1: And I love when Cabot. I love when she finds
Speaker 1: a way and she's like, so basically, babe, we're only
Speaker 1: petitioning on that stolen property charge. And the Canadian lawyer
Speaker 1: is like, give me a fucking break, Like this is bullshit.
Speaker 1: They're trying to circumvent our laws and as soon as
Speaker 1: they get him over the border, they're going to charge
Speaker 1: him with capital crimes and who cares, right, And the
Speaker 1: lawyer earlier had said something like, I can't speculate as
Speaker 1: to what may or may not happen. And so now
Speaker 1: the judge goes, well, I can't speculate as to what
Speaker 1: may or may not happen, and he grants the extradition
Speaker 1: take that psycho so that they bring this guy back
Speaker 1: to the US, and he walks slowly towards Munch like
Speaker 1: gets you know. Finn arrests him for the murders, and
Speaker 1: then he gets kissing distance away from Munch, who goes
Speaker 1: welcome home, Darryl, and then they take him off and
Speaker 1: he thanks Cabot, you know, for figuring this out. And
Speaker 1: then in the last scene, Munch goes to the apartment
Speaker 1: of Sarah Kimmel and he just wants to let her
Speaker 1: know that she can turn her lights out tonight. And
Speaker 1: that's dick Wolf babe.
Speaker 4: He truly is the male Marishka.
Speaker 2: I would say in terms of care for victims, he really, like,
Speaker 2: this isn't the first. I mean, it might be the
Speaker 2: first of season two, but he like goes above and
Speaker 2: beyond with these cases, and he really cares about them,
Speaker 2: and he makes these he wants people to feel safe
Speaker 2: and he goes above and beyond.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean he did think that girls that
Speaker 1: were being sex trafficked were possibly part of a Mickey
Speaker 1: Mouse fan club. Remember, But he also I would say
Speaker 1: he has connection. It's like he's very connected to the woman,
Speaker 1: the actress Jennifer Esposito's character, Marley Mattlin's character, this woman,
Speaker 1: like he.
Speaker 4: Has anyone with schizophrenia.
Speaker 1: Yes, anyone that reminds him of like a story of
Speaker 1: a neighbor girl back home who he never told the
Speaker 1: cops that something was going on with her and she
Speaker 1: died or whatever. Like he yes, you know, he's got
Speaker 1: good connections with who he's got connections with, and that's
Speaker 1: and he will, I will. I give him that. That's good,
Speaker 1: like cause they give Finn a little bit of that,
Speaker 1: but not totally. They give Stabler a little bit of that,
Speaker 1: but not as much. I think they give the most
Speaker 1: to Benson. And the next up is much for sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: right now, I can't wait for you to tell me
Speaker 1: about how psychotic these crimes are because I have been
Speaker 1: seeing these cases that I'm seeing the first one that
Speaker 1: you're gonna cover. I've been seeing these names forever and
Speaker 1: I don't know I don't think I know about these
Speaker 1: at all.
Speaker 2: Okay, So it's about two cases, and one of them
Speaker 2: is like eight things are exactly like the episode, like
Speaker 2: it's really wild, no, like so many little things too.
Speaker 4: And then then the second one is.
Speaker 2: Connected because of the gruesomeness and stuff, and I was
Speaker 2: trying to maybe split them so it wasn't like back
Speaker 2: to back horrors. But no other episodes have these crimes,
Speaker 2: so we're gonna have to hear both of them at once.
Speaker 2: But okay, so the first one is Leonard Lake and
Speaker 2: Charles ng and they're the two most like infamous serial
Speaker 2: killers of the twentieth century, is what something said.
Speaker 1: But it's like, well, we don't know them. Well, why
Speaker 1: don't they have little names? Then why aren't they called
Speaker 1: the so and so killers? Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like these are the most well in terms
Speaker 2: of their crime, they're horrific. But it's like, stop making
Speaker 2: these No, we barely know them. I'm sure people listening
Speaker 2: do not know these guys. Lake was obsessed with nuclear
Speaker 2: holocaust survivalism, so he moved to a cab in an
Speaker 2: unincorporated area in the in Calvaries County, which is about
Speaker 2: seventy miles northeast of Stockton, if like you're in the area,
Speaker 2: but it's the Bay Area, right, And this is after
Speaker 2: he was given a medical discharge after being diagnosed with
Speaker 2: a personality disorder from the military. So Ding Ding ding
Speaker 2: SV it's a military guy personality disorder cabin Honestly, you
Speaker 2: can make a bingo board of the episode. You would
Speaker 2: be yeah, you would have the board filled.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So he's also classic in terms of like killing small animals,
Speaker 2: being obsessed with porn, being obsessed with abusive sex. So
Speaker 2: he had like all the makings of a bad guy.
Speaker 2: And then Charles was born in Hong Kong and he's
Speaker 2: a kleptomaniac. That's I don't know why I keep doing earhorns.
Speaker 2: This is like sad.
Speaker 1: But anyways, he is addicted to stealing, and that goes
Speaker 1: into your episode of like why would you go steal?
Speaker 4: And he's a coed Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2: He came to the Bay Area under a student visa
Speaker 2: to attend Notre Dame de Demir. I don't know, I
Speaker 2: can't say Dinimore whatever. It's in Belmont, California. It's a
Speaker 2: Catholic college. He was an academic failure and failed out
Speaker 2: of school and then he got a fake ID to
Speaker 2: join the Marines. But in nineteen eighty he was busted
Speaker 2: first allegedly but he was stealing weapons from a military
Speaker 2: base and he went on the run. And so in
Speaker 2: the early nineteen eighties Lake meets up with this Charles guy.
Speaker 2: They both had ties to the military, and they became
Speaker 2: an unlikely duo of crime.
Speaker 4: Oh no, some more military stuff.
Speaker 2: So their victims were mostly like acquaintances and people they
Speaker 2: met through classified ads. So like Lake's neighbor Lonnie Wayne
Speaker 2: Bond and his girlfriend Brenda Sue O'Connor, and their one
Speaker 2: year old son, Lonnie Bond Junior all went missing, and
Speaker 2: then their friend Robin Scott Stapley went missing. They eventually
Speaker 2: found Bond's car on Lake's property. And then two of
Speaker 2: their victims were teenagers that attended a school where Lake's
Speaker 2: former wife worked as an aide. And I was very
Speaker 2: annoyed by the New York Times because they wrote about
Speaker 2: this going two of the women were girls, and I
Speaker 2: had mentioned this previously, but it's like, no, no, no, they're
Speaker 2: not women, they're teenagers, right, teenagers, right?
Speaker 4: Kids?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 4: Girls?
Speaker 2: Like we talked about this with sex crimsers like underage women,
Speaker 2: no their teens, their girls stop like fucking helping molesterers.
Speaker 1: New York Times. Two of the women were girls.
Speaker 2: It's nuts teenagers and this is the eighties, I guess,
Speaker 2: all right. So they killed the men quickly and would
Speaker 2: dump the remains in a mass grave by the cabin.
Speaker 2: The men were mostly bound, gagged and fatally shot. They
Speaker 2: would also kill the babies immediately and any infants like
Speaker 2: they killed everyone, but they would keep the women. And
Speaker 2: then they would keep the women though for prolonged torture
Speaker 2: before killing them. And it was a lot of you
Speaker 2: can imagine bondage, sadism stuff.
Speaker 4: They held their victims in.
Speaker 2: A remote one and a half acre seer in Nevada
Speaker 2: fence compound about one hundred and fifty miles east of
Speaker 2: San Francisco.
Speaker 4: There was a bunker.
Speaker 2: There were three rooms, two of them behind a hidden doorway,
Speaker 2: one hidden locked room with furnit like that was furnished
Speaker 2: like a cell with a bed covered with a foam
Speaker 2: pad and a plastic bucket and a roll of toilet paper,
Speaker 2: so like grim Grim. The building had a secret entrance
Speaker 2: with peep holes two way mirrors which the police believe
Speaker 2: women victims were like unknowingly being videotaped, but the least
Speaker 2: of their problems. They videotaped them tormenting the women and
Speaker 2: then binding the scared women and using them as sex
Speaker 2: slaves before the murder, so they incriminated themselves.
Speaker 4: They taped it all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the jurors this is jumping forward, but jurors
Speaker 2: were shown the tapes of one woman pleading in vain
Speaker 2: for the men to spare her husband and baby while
Speaker 2: ing cut off her shirt and bra with a knife
Speaker 2: in front of the camera.
Speaker 4: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: This is like truly horror movie shit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is jumping out as well.
Speaker 2: But like his big defense was like Lake made me
Speaker 2: do it, And then they showed the video being like,
Speaker 2: seems like you were pretty into it.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: The videotape equipment belonged to Harvey Dubbs, a San Francisco
Speaker 2: freelance video producer who disappeared with his wife, Deborah, and
Speaker 2: their sixteenth month old son. So that's another parallel to
Speaker 2: the episode. They would like murder, kidnap, take people, and
Speaker 2: then take their stuff. So then they used Dub's credit
Speaker 2: card to purchase dinner after the family disappeared, and like
Speaker 2: one of the victims of the tape was Sue O'Connor,
Speaker 2: Lake's neighbor girlfriend I mentioned earlier. So like the tapes
Speaker 2: helped them identify victims as well in the future because
Speaker 2: the remains were hard to identify, and so, like a
Speaker 2: lot of them, tape ended up helping figure out who
Speaker 2: these people were. They were caught in nineteen eighty five
Speaker 2: because of Ing's obsession with stealing. Yeah, so Lake was
Speaker 2: in the car and Ing stole an item from a
Speaker 2: hardware store in South San Francisco. So Ing escaped, but
Speaker 2: then they caught up with Lake who was in the car,
Speaker 2: and then they found a gun in the car as well,
Speaker 2: and like that was registered to one of the missing people.
Speaker 2: But once Lake was caught and arrested, he killed himself. Wow,
Speaker 2: he swallowed a poison after his arrest on the shoplifting charge.
Speaker 2: So while in custody, he popped a cyanide pill he
Speaker 2: kept hidden and he died. Yeah, so now he's done
Speaker 2: from the story. I mean, this is like a stone cold,
Speaker 2: fucking psycho. So yeah, he took his own life Cyanide
Speaker 2: who knew so Charles, Uh, but Charles did flee and
Speaker 2: then also Lake was and then on top of it,
Speaker 2: Lake was carrying a driver's license of someone named Robin
Speaker 2: Stapeley of San Diego, who of course was missing. And
Speaker 2: then they were driving a car owned by Paul Coostner
Speaker 2: who and carrying the bank cards of a bunch of people.
Speaker 2: So everything was from missing people, cars, IDs, credit cards,
Speaker 2: any guns, everything was registered and to other people. Investigators
Speaker 2: on the property then discovered piles of charred bones, forty
Speaker 2: five pounds of bones, blood stained tools, shallow graves, and
Speaker 2: then a two hundred and fifty page diary kept by
Speaker 2: Lake and it detailed his plan. So his plan was
Speaker 2: called Operation Miranda, and his fantasy of surviving a nuclear
Speaker 2: holocaust in a concrete bunker stocked with food, weapons, and
Speaker 2: female slaves.
Speaker 4: So this this was like kind of his dream for like, then,
Speaker 4: why did you kill all the women?
Speaker 2: Four law enforcement agencies spent five weeks scouring the property.
Speaker 2: They found thousands of buried teeth and bone fragment.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: And then at least four of the dental specimens belonged
Speaker 2: to children under the age of three. NG was found
Speaker 2: about a month later in Alberta, Canada. Again the episode
Speaker 2: after again attempting to shoplift at a department store like
Speaker 2: truly a klepto, Yeah, and he wounded a store guard.
Speaker 2: So he was found not guilty of the attempted murder
Speaker 2: charge because, as like the judge said, since it was
Speaker 2: just a shot in the hand, like you couldn't couldn't
Speaker 2: like you couldn't prove that he was trying to kill
Speaker 2: the guy, just injure him. But he was found guilty
Speaker 2: of robbery and assault and given four and a half years.
Speaker 2: So they obviously the US wanted to get an extradition
Speaker 2: for him and try him for all these horrific crimes,
Speaker 2: but he fought the extradition for six years and then
Speaker 2: finally the Supreme Court in Canada ordered his return, so
Speaker 2: he was finally brought back to the US in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety one, and Cara covered this in episode so like
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy six, an extradition treaty between Canada and
Speaker 2: the US was created and that Canada can reject an
Speaker 2: extradition petition if the US does not guarantee that the
Speaker 2: suspect will not face the death penalty, because Canada abolished
Speaker 2: the capital punishment in nineteen seventy six, but he still
Speaker 2: was I don't know how they finally did it, but
Speaker 2: he fought it for six years. He was found guilty
Speaker 2: of eleven confirmed but is believe there's like at least
Speaker 2: over a dozen more in nineteen ninety nine. He was
Speaker 2: finally convicted nineteen ninety nine, and I'll get into that,
Speaker 2: but of killing six men, three women, two baby boys
Speaker 2: and accused of thirteen slayings. He still denied the crime,
Speaker 2: and his defense argued that he was under Lake's influence.
Speaker 2: But like you taped it and then This was one
Speaker 2: of California's longest and most expensive trials at the time,
Speaker 2: costing millions of dollars, partly because the court said, according
Speaker 2: to CBS News, that Ing repeatedly attempted to delay and
Speaker 2: disrupt his own trial. I mean this was hundreds of hours,
Speaker 2: over ten years and over six hundred witnesses.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 2: Case files filled three rooms, said the deputy Orange County
Speaker 2: Public defender William Kelly. The case was tried in the
Speaker 2: OC because of like unfair stuff, so he got it moved.
Speaker 2: He thought all the media attention wouldn't keep like have
Speaker 2: the trial be fair in the Bay Area if you
Speaker 2: were alive during this time or living there or live
Speaker 2: in the area, Like, let me know if you know
Speaker 2: about this, Like if this was on the news all
Speaker 2: the time, why don't we really know about this crime?
Speaker 2: It says, it's so infamous, it's like obviously horrific, so
Speaker 2: many different layers, but it's kind of like the episode,
Speaker 2: we don't really know about it.
Speaker 1: I tried to look up their faces because I wanted
Speaker 1: to see what they look like, and like some things
Speaker 1: call it the Mirandom murders, but like that doesn't that
Speaker 1: didn't catch on, Like I don't think enough people were
Speaker 1: talking about the Mirandom murders, no Rod.
Speaker 2: But I'm wondering if people like because it got moved
Speaker 2: down to the OC, so obviously there's a bunch of
Speaker 2: media attention. Yeah, but this is late eighties, this is
Speaker 2: throughout the nineties. Other things took over. Like I'm just
Speaker 2: curious if anyone has any memories of this, right, let
Speaker 2: us know. So the Kelly guy, the defense attorney, the
Speaker 2: public defender, said it was like at six million dollars
Speaker 2: before the case he even got the case, which would
Speaker 2: need an additional two years to prepare in a year
Speaker 2: to try it. Whoa ing was sentenced to death and
Speaker 2: currently being held at the California Medical Facility in Vacaville.
Speaker 2: July twenty twenty two, the California Supreme Court upheld the
Speaker 2: death penalty for the guy, but Gavin Newsom imposed the
Speaker 2: moratorium on the death penalty, so as long as he's
Speaker 2: in charge, he will not be murdered. And even decades later,
Speaker 2: there's still trying to identify some of the remains of
Speaker 2: the victims using genealogical DNA. So the bones and other
Speaker 2: human remains were kept in a crypt in a cemetery
Speaker 2: and hopes that modern DNA tracing could help reveal identities
Speaker 2: by using DNA databases. So two people in twenty twenty
Speaker 2: five alone had been identified. WHOA, So it's still like
Speaker 2: a current kind of case. So Reginald aka Reggie Frisbee,
Speaker 2: an unknown victim of the men, were able to be
Speaker 2: identified through genealogical stuff like through like you know, what
Speaker 2: are those called where you spit in the thing and
Speaker 2: you send it like twenty three DNA testing. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: they were finally able to identify O'Connor as well. Apartment
Speaker 2: set according to San Francisco Gate sf Gate like a
Speaker 2: newspaper thing. This case underscores the power of modern forensic
Speaker 2: science and bringing families the closure they deserve even after
Speaker 2: decades of uncertainty. So that that was kind of beautiful.
Speaker 2: But we weren't really know exact numbers of anything, but
Speaker 2: like they definitely killed over twenty p like we don't know, yeah,
Speaker 2: because who knows how they broke apart all these bodies.
Speaker 4: Like it's fucked, It's fine.
Speaker 1: I just think the guy should rot in jail forever.
Speaker 1: I feel like Newsome is right with the I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not even like a death penalty person,
Speaker 1: but it's like you held people in a cage and
Speaker 1: that's how you have to live for the rest of
Speaker 1: your life. Like I think that's I think, yeah, ugh, horrible.
Speaker 1: I can't believe there's another one.
Speaker 4: Oh no, this one's even worse, i'd say, if we
Speaker 4: have to compare it.
Speaker 1: But oh, oh oh god.
Speaker 2: And I actually remember because when I performed in Philly,
Speaker 2: not this last time, but a couple times ago, someone
Speaker 2: was telling me about this crime, and I think I
Speaker 2: kicked it out of my head. And so we're back.
Speaker 2: It's the Gary heidnick case and Kara, this freak actually
Speaker 2: inspired the Buffalo Bill character in Silence of the Lambs One. Okay,
Speaker 2: I know there's a lot of different things, but a
Speaker 2: lot of parallels between this guy and Buffalo Bill.
Speaker 1: All right, here we go.
Speaker 2: So Gary was a self appointed pastor of a church
Speaker 2: so Problems. He created a church called United Church Ministries
Speaker 2: of God, and his congregation met in his home and
Speaker 2: his worshippers were comprised of mostly mentally challenged people. And
Speaker 2: he was known as someone who flashed rolls of money
Speaker 2: and like he had a Rolls Royce and a Cadillac
Speaker 2: and like just all this cash and he would roll
Speaker 2: around flashing it, roll the money around the neighborhood to
Speaker 2: use and mentally handicapped women. And he would take these
Speaker 2: people on trips to the New Jersey amusement parks. So
Speaker 2: and he had an IQ of one forty eight. So
Speaker 2: he is like upper intelligence and he's hanging out with
Speaker 2: a g group of mentally challenged people, which is fine
Speaker 2: if you're of service, but like what and you would
Speaker 2: take these people on trips to the amusement park and
Speaker 2: pay for everything.
Speaker 4: And he was just kind of known for that.
Speaker 2: He made a lot of money as a successful investor
Speaker 2: in the stock market, okay, and he was also like
Speaker 2: the son of a former city councilman in a Cleveland suburb.
Speaker 2: This happened in Philly, but you know Ohio and Pennsylvania touch,
Speaker 2: so you know, he came from a councilman. He's really smart,
Speaker 2: he makes a ton of money in the market. And
Speaker 2: his former wife, one of his former wives, was like
Speaker 2: a mail order bride from the Philippines, so that's also
Speaker 2: like that's like a pretty much.
Speaker 4: Red flag of like you're mail ordering rides.
Speaker 2: And while and a lot of people about this guy
Speaker 2: said he was patient, kind, chatty, but anyone that really
Speaker 2: knew him said the opposite. Like his wife said that
Speaker 2: he was short tempered, often beat and tortured her. She
Speaker 2: went to authorities after a few months of being in
Speaker 2: the country with him, said that he raped her. He
Speaker 2: was charged with a bunch of charges, but the woman
Speaker 2: never came to the hearing and she led the fuck
Speaker 2: out of there. She used aid from a Filipino community,
Speaker 2: like Philadelphia's Filipino community helped her and she went into
Speaker 2: hiding and fled, which, you know, whatever she needed to do. Obviously,
Speaker 2: it'd be nice if he was in jail for these crimes.
Speaker 4: I don't know why they needed a witness.
Speaker 2: This is very SVU and annoying, but everything had to
Speaker 2: be dropped because of it. Now, all of the victims
Speaker 2: of this case of him, outside of like domestic abuse
Speaker 2: that he did with this wife and he had a
Speaker 2: few other wives, his victims were all black women, So
Speaker 2: I think that also kind of affected how poorly the
Speaker 2: police acted reacted. Yeah, but all the victims were black women,
Speaker 2: and he believed that races needed to mix to create
Speaker 2: a perfect race. And his plan was to enslave ten
Speaker 2: black girls and have babies with them. What the fuck.
Speaker 2: So he lured these into his homes with promise of
Speaker 2: money in exchange for sex, and then he would overpower
Speaker 2: them and then chain them in a pit in the basement.
Speaker 2: So he lured sex workers and mentally disabled women into
Speaker 2: his North Philly home, and Philly is nicknamed this place
Speaker 2: the House of Horrors, and this dungeon like basement it was,
Speaker 2: you know, the walls were covered in one and five
Speaker 2: dollar bills, there were two mattresses in a portable toilet.
Speaker 2: So he kidnapped six women in total, and two were
Speaker 2: killed and four did end up being saved.
Speaker 4: In the end.
Speaker 2: So the four that survived were Josephina Rivera, Lisa Thomas, Jacquelinaskins,
Speaker 2: and Agnes Adams. And then two were killed, Sandra Lindsay
Speaker 2: and Deborah Dudley ended up not surviving this House of Horrors,
Speaker 2: Sandra Lindsay from starvation, torture, combo, and then Deborah was
Speaker 2: electrocuted and then buried in a New Jersey pot like woods.
Speaker 4: Oh my god. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So Josephina was a mother of three and struggled with
Speaker 2: drug addiction and was working as a sex worker, and
Speaker 2: that's how he got her into the home. Sandra Lindsay
Speaker 2: had who had developmental disabilities, attended his church services. Lindsay
Speaker 2: was disabled, says her sister to CNN, and he prayed
Speaker 2: on her vulnerability and desire to be accepted, and she
Speaker 2: would tell her sister about like, oh, I go into
Speaker 2: an amusement park, it's all young people. He bought us McDonald's,
Speaker 2: like she really trusted him to her. He was a hero, okay,
Speaker 2: and then her sister That's what her sister, Tracy has
Speaker 2: said to his CNN that like hero. In nineteen eighty six,
Speaker 2: the day after Thanksgiving, Lindsay went to the store to
Speaker 2: buy some pain meds and never returned. Her family called
Speaker 2: him and he hung up, and they kept calling and
Speaker 2: he would keep hanging up. So they started arriving at
Speaker 2: his house and he would deny them entry, So then
Speaker 2: they went to the police, and then the police did
Speaker 2: question him. So then afterwards suddenly a card from Lindsay
Speaker 2: arrived after christmassing. She was fine, and they knew it
Speaker 2: wasn't her, and so they kept begging detectives like can
Speaker 2: you please go in there, and we know it's him,
Speaker 2: and they're like, nope, we can't. So then the mother,
Speaker 2: Janet Perkins, files a police report with the police about
Speaker 2: her daughter missing, and the police ignored it and said,
Speaker 2: we can't really do anything.
Speaker 4: Your daughter's an adult. Get over it.
Speaker 2: Then the Elwyn Institutes of National Rehabilitation Center that a
Speaker 2: lot of the that's where he found that's where he
Speaker 2: would pray on people. It's like a center for the disabled.
Speaker 2: And they kept calling the authorities saying that Heidnik was
Speaker 2: harassing their clients. So you have multiple family members, you have,
Speaker 2: you have this institute saying he is praying on our clients.
Speaker 2: The police refused to do anything about it. Then neighbors
Speaker 2: said they'd complained to the police about noise and smell
Speaker 2: of burning flesh, which the cops say they deny that
Speaker 2: anyone ever said anything. The neighbors said they were constantly calling, complaining,
Speaker 2: and the cops said, we don't have probable cause.
Speaker 4: We can't just enter a home.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: So Jackie Askins, a survivor, did an interview to mark
Speaker 2: the thirty years since Gary was captured to ABC Local
Speaker 2: six news, and she said he stripped her naked like,
Speaker 2: took her wig off, everything, led her down, handcuffed her
Speaker 2: naked to the basement, and then she saw four other
Speaker 2: prisoners there, all of them chained up. Two were on
Speaker 2: the bed, one by the pool table, and one was
Speaker 2: standing by the window. So the women would come on
Speaker 2: their own, like I said, to have consensual sex with
Speaker 2: him or whatever was going on. But because of their
Speaker 2: diminish mental capacity, I don't really know how consensual it is.
Speaker 2: And I'm really annoyed that that's the research we do,
Speaker 2: how people frame stuff. But from the Supreme Court report
Speaker 2: that during the sex he would choke them out, then
Speaker 2: while unconscious, he would chain them, and the survivor said
Speaker 2: it was daily rapes and beatings, tortured them. He would
Speaker 2: tell them I have a lot of kids because the
Speaker 2: state kept taking his kids away from him. This is
Speaker 2: according to the Oxygen Network. But like, yeah he had children,
Speaker 2: he did. Yeah, like he had ex wives. He had children,
Speaker 2: and they kept being taken away from him, and no
Speaker 2: one wanted to be around this motherfucker like a true psychopath. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he had kids taken away all the time. So he
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm gonna go into the details, and it's grim.
Speaker 2: It is what it is. So he wrapped tape around
Speaker 2: their mouths and would drive a screwdriver into their ears
Speaker 2: and would turn it.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, yes to ABC News.
Speaker 2: And then he created this pit and he filled it
Speaker 2: with water, and then he would electrically like shock the women.
Speaker 4: And then he would the dead bodies.
Speaker 2: He would dismember the victims and then store the limbs
Speaker 2: and containers labeled dog food and then fed the women
Speaker 2: dog food or dog food mixed in with like the
Speaker 2: other human remains.
Speaker 4: My god, oh my god.
Speaker 2: And Askins said that she remembers dismembering one of her
Speaker 2: fellow victims that like Linds, each while hanging for days
Speaker 2: with her arms shackled to a ceiling pipe, and that
Speaker 2: her body had to be cut up and like with
Speaker 2: a power saw, and was stored in the fridge, and
Speaker 2: he made her dismember the body and then he boiled
Speaker 2: her head in a large pot on the stove. Oh
Speaker 2: my god, Like minute, I can't there's no words, honestly,
Speaker 2: like no words aren't enough for the evil.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So Johnson was put in the pit and electrocuted, and
Speaker 2: then he dumped her body in the forest. And then
Speaker 2: when he would leave the house, he would leave one
Speaker 2: of the women in charge, and when he would come back,
Speaker 2: he would ask how the others behaved, and if she
Speaker 2: said bad, they would get beaten, but if she said good,
Speaker 2: she would get beaten.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: So finally Philly police arrested this motherfucker in nineteen eighty seven,
Speaker 2: and you're wondering, Wow, how did they solve the crime?
Speaker 2: They didn't. One of the women fucking escaped, thank god. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So Josephina Rivera, she gained the trust of this guy
Speaker 2: and convinced him to let her leave the house briefly
Speaker 2: to like meet up with her family. So he drove
Speaker 2: her to like make a phone call at like a
Speaker 2: payphone to talk to her family, and she fled called
Speaker 2: the cops. He he also thought he had something on
Speaker 2: her though that's like where the trust came from or
Speaker 2: like what he had over her. But basically he made
Speaker 2: her sign a note saying that she helped kill Deborah Dudley,
Speaker 2: so that it was incriminating to her, and he said, like,
Speaker 2: you're not gonna so then he stopped handcuffing her, and like,
Speaker 2: you know, all of.
Speaker 1: This guy has one hundred and forty whatever IQ he
Speaker 1: thinks that that's going to fucking hold up anywhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So basically, like because she helped him and sign
Speaker 2: this paper, he like started being like more chill, and
Speaker 2: so yeah, he wasn't handcuffing her. And then March twenty fourth,
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven, Phillipe d received a call from a
Speaker 2: woman who said she'd been held captive for the last
Speaker 2: four months. The cops arrived to the payphone she used,
Speaker 2: and this is in the Supreme Court case files quoted
Speaker 2: by Justia Justia. It said she was visibly shaking and
Speaker 2: gave cops the scoop and then they held that's these
Speaker 2: are my words. They helped calm her down and she
Speaker 2: told them that Gary was waiting for her to return
Speaker 2: in a car park nearby, and he thought that she
Speaker 2: was just visiting family.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: So when they approached him, he said, what's this all about, Officer,
Speaker 2: didn't I pay my child's support?
Speaker 1: And then that's the Supreme Court files in justia.
Speaker 2: And then when the women were finally freed, a next
Speaker 2: door neighbor, Dorothy Zubulka, is quoted in The Times saying
Speaker 2: that three of them came running out of the house yelling, horray,
Speaker 2: we're free, We're out, and missus. Zubulka was actually one
Speaker 2: of the neighbors that told police several times about how
Speaker 2: it smelled like burning flesh and that she heard electrical
Speaker 2: saws and hammering in the middle of the night. Warren Henceman,
Speaker 2: another neighbor, said he complained about foul odors and that
Speaker 2: the officer who responded to call to the call dismissed
Speaker 2: his concern and said, yeah, Okay, it's a burned roast.
Speaker 4: Don't worry guy.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: The New York Times ago, it's probably a roast. I
Speaker 2: also would like to mention that in nineteen seventy eight
Speaker 2: he was arrested and convicted he kidnapped his ex's sister,
Speaker 2: Alberta Davidson, who had an intellectual disability, and then she
Speaker 2: was kidnapped from the institution she lived in, and he
Speaker 2: allegedly raped her and kept her imprisoned in a basement
Speaker 2: storage room.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: And what and he would and they wanted a convict
Speaker 2: him of more crimes, but they couldn't because Alberta was
Speaker 2: deemed mentally.
Speaker 4: Unfit to take the stand.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: So then he was in prisoned for four years and
Speaker 2: four months and he was silent the whole time. And
Speaker 2: then he was paroled in nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 1: Paroled. Oh my god.
Speaker 2: So not only was an institute complaining about him, a
Speaker 2: mother complaining about him, neighbors complaining about him. He has
Speaker 2: a record, So he has a record of holding women
Speaker 2: hostage and torturing them. Was arrested, and still no one
Speaker 2: in fucking Philadelphia PD would investigate. And you know it's
Speaker 2: because these are black women.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like and and it's like the whole thing about
Speaker 1: like letting her go, like uh be with her family
Speaker 1: a little bit. To me, it's like this, it's like
Speaker 1: the Colleen standcase. It's like these guys want to feel
Speaker 1: like I have so like so much control over these
Speaker 1: women that they would never go and escape and tell
Speaker 1: anybody about me or whatever, like I have the control.
Speaker 1: It's like they think that these women are dogs and
Speaker 1: they can walk their dogs off the leash. Well yeah,
Speaker 1: especially if like you created your own church. Yes, you
Speaker 1: need to be the man in charge and controlling people.
Speaker 2: And then police found twenty seven pounds of body parts
Speaker 2: inside his face. Oh my god, they found a dismembered
Speaker 2: head and a stock pot of water.
Speaker 4: I told you, like, I'm like, yeah, that's.
Speaker 1: Very buffalo bill. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then you know, they found the women chained up
Speaker 2: with the pits the to where it's bad. And then
Speaker 2: so his defense attorney, Charles Peruto Junior, in an interview
Speaker 2: with A and E, said Gary's attitude towards the whole
Speaker 2: thing was that he hadn't even committed a crime and
Speaker 2: had a perfectly logical excuse and calm demeanor for all
Speaker 2: the evil things he did. He never had any remorse
Speaker 2: for anything. Prudo Junior did try to make him seem
Speaker 2: more insane, like was helping him out because he did
Speaker 2: not meet the legal threshold of insanity, but he reached
Speaker 2: the clinical and he had this IQ but basically, like
Speaker 2: his fucking lawyer told him, don't bathe don't trim your
Speaker 2: beard and let your mustache grow into your mouth, like
Speaker 2: helping him look more crazy. Yeah, and the judge knew
Speaker 2: it was bullshit and did not fall for it. Lynn Abraham,
Speaker 2: you're a real one. Who eventually became a Philly da
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety one, she realized he was faking it.
Speaker 2: And Miss Rivera, the one who escaped, She said that
Speaker 2: he would always say like, even if I'm arrested and
Speaker 2: we go to court, I'm going to act crazy. I'm
Speaker 2: going to salute the judge and I don't even care.
Speaker 2: I'll act crazy for years and they'll throw this case out.
Speaker 4: And that's according to the Supreme Court docs.
Speaker 2: And then the defense had three psychologists say that he
Speaker 2: didn't know the difference between right or wrong because of
Speaker 2: his schizophrenia, and that he thought God was asking him
Speaker 2: to do this. But they had a bunch of witnesses
Speaker 2: who were like, Nope, that's not working. He had a
Speaker 2: stockbroker who was like, no, he was pretty sane and
Speaker 2: normal and would tell me what to do with his funds.
Speaker 4: All the time. Was able to work with me.
Speaker 2: An old social worker testified that in the fall of
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six, she deemed him clean, safe, calm, rational,
Speaker 2: smart while escorting his ex wife out of a hospital
Speaker 2: because she needed a help. So she he was like
Speaker 2: sane enough to help his wife out of the hospital.
Speaker 2: An acquaintance claiming he had been consistently the same for
Speaker 2: eight years. A court reporter who was involved in like
Speaker 2: family court proceedings also said he was a car salesman.
Speaker 2: A psychiatrist from his veteran's office, court psychologist too all
Speaker 2: put him in the A court psychologist actually said that
Speaker 2: he was in the top half percent of one percent
Speaker 2: of people smart wise. Wow, but like you said, why
Speaker 2: would you think that?
Speaker 1: Like paper, yeah, like a little contract, Yeah yeah. He
Speaker 1: also tried to hang himself in jail by using a
Speaker 1: T shirt from a shower pipe, and he was found
Speaker 1: by a CEO. He was eventually convicted of two counts
Speaker 1: of murder, six counts of kidnapping, five counts of rape,
Speaker 1: and various other charges. He was sentenced to death on
Speaker 1: March second in nineteen eighty nine. And we are against
Speaker 1: the death penalty, but I guess not here because I'm
Speaker 1: pretty thrilled that he was killed by lethal injection in
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine. He did not appeal his conviction once
Speaker 1: and did not fight the death penalty, which his attorney
Speaker 1: says points to him being like clinically insane, but I don't.
Speaker 4: Care, okay.
Speaker 2: His last meal was black coffee and two slices of
Speaker 2: cheese pizza. Maybe you are insane wildly. His estrange daughter,
Speaker 2: Maxine Davidson White, did appeal and try to save him
Speaker 2: from execution, but.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Askins attended the execution, as did Lindsay's family and the
Speaker 2: Dudley's family, and they said they were all dissatisfied and
Speaker 2: not get the relief that they thought they wanted. That like,
Speaker 2: he didn't look at them, but it was like they yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: And Rivera said that she wanted him to sit in
Speaker 2: a cell and not get the death penalty. So he
Speaker 2: was actually the last person executed in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 4: The victims so.
Speaker 2: Fucked up received a thirty thousand dollars settlement. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: what Yeah, you guys did not investigate for years as
Speaker 2: people were complaining, and.
Speaker 1: You got him thirty k. You gave him thirty k. Crazy.
Speaker 1: That's fucking crazy.
Speaker 2: Thomas and Adams were never really able to recover from
Speaker 2: the experience. Obviously they deal with mental health and addiction issues.
Speaker 2: And this is from twenty twenty one update from Oxygen.
Speaker 2: Rivera told the Philly Inchoir she returned to sex work
Speaker 2: after the trial, but she did give it up.
Speaker 4: She gave up drugs.
Speaker 2: She's been working random jobs for a while and was
Speaker 2: able to reunite with her children. She lives in Atlantic
Speaker 2: City with her husband. She loves taking walks on the beach,
Speaker 2: but she's in She still has panic attacks if she
Speaker 2: sees chains or handcuffs anywhere.
Speaker 4: She has to turn the TV off. And that sounds familiar.
Speaker 2: I feel like that's like something else we've covered where
Speaker 2: it might be Colleen stan actually like that triggers her.
Speaker 2: It might I think it was, But that's what I mean.
Speaker 2: Like these women should never have to work again, Like
Speaker 2: they should have all been given like at least a
Speaker 2: few hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 4: Like I don't understand.
Speaker 2: I don't understand how like these women get out there's
Speaker 2: no victim services, Like, yeah, she still had to do
Speaker 2: sex work.
Speaker 4: Like she didn't. I can't. I can't understand awful.
Speaker 2: And then the surviving women actually wanted to press charges
Speaker 2: against Rivera. Why because they said that like she would
Speaker 2: help them even though she saved them and like was
Speaker 2: trying to survive. They feel like she did things that
Speaker 2: she shouldn't have. But oh, those charges were dropped but
Speaker 2: like that never went anywhere.
Speaker 3: But but.
Speaker 2: I understand where they're coming from. And like maybe she
Speaker 2: was like favored and did or and did do more
Speaker 2: fucked up stuff, but that's what gave.
Speaker 1: Her the ability to get out and get them out.
Speaker 1: They could all be dead, but that's I could see. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Askins still lives in Philly. She cleans houses, she's close
Speaker 1: with her sons. She's on meds to deal with her
Speaker 1: anxiety and trauma, and that's according to a Huffington Post
Speaker 1: article in twenty fourteen. But she has intense flashbacks and
Speaker 1: she cannot enter basements, which makes sense. Ye, Askins and
Speaker 1: Rivera did eventually have a sit down. And if you
Speaker 1: want to see this, it's call it's a show called
Speaker 1: Monster Preacher on Oxygen if you want to see this
Speaker 1: sit down. And I want to say, like I didn't
Speaker 1: include it on purpose, but like like Charles and this
Speaker 1: dude like they were both beat by their family, both
Speaker 1: like insane parents, like not really like a great childhood.
Speaker 1: But I'm really sick about hearing about that because women
Speaker 1: are abused all the time and it doesn't seem like
Speaker 1: they're committing as many crimes. And I think about school
Speaker 1: shootings in the same way we excuse it by like
Speaker 1: they're bullied. They're bullied, they're ostracized, and it's like, so
Speaker 1: are black kids. I don't know, so are women, so
Speaker 1: are trans kids, and like for some reason, it's always
Speaker 1: these dudes. It's we always, oh, they're abused, but like
Speaker 1: so are not men.
Speaker 4: Yeah, women are abused.
Speaker 2: Women go through incests and who knows if they're doing
Speaker 2: other weird shit and manifestations. But it does seem like
Speaker 2: most women that are abused like this that goes inward
Speaker 2: and it's like eating disorders and cutting and like all
Speaker 2: of these things, and so like I'm just sick of
Speaker 2: it being used and even the discussion of like, well,
Speaker 2: you know, a cycle of abuse, and it's.
Speaker 1: Like, but it's not for women, I don't know.
Speaker 2: And I'm sure there's women beating their kids like I
Speaker 2: and not being and repeating it in certain ways it's
Speaker 2: just like I'm kind of sick of it at being
Speaker 2: a reason. Yeah, because Charles's father went to CORE to
Speaker 2: testify any Cry and was like, I shouldn't have hit
Speaker 2: my kid. I fucked up. I fucked up. Really, yeah,
Speaker 2: I guess I did the wrong thing. He's like, you know,
Speaker 2: my wife begged me to stop, but I thought I
Speaker 2: was doing the right thing. And so it's like, I
Speaker 2: get that these people are being beat, but there needs
Speaker 2: to be research on why men are more outward with
Speaker 2: this abuse and women are inward because I don't care anymore.
Speaker 2: I don't care if these abusers are abused. I don't
Speaker 2: care anymore. Yeah, it's like tough, I don't know. Lots
Speaker 2: of people were hit and they didn't put screwdrivers in women.
Speaker 2: I put them in the pits and electrocute them. Why
Speaker 2: are you writing?
Speaker 1: I mean this is like we talk about the cycle
Speaker 1: of abuse all the time, and like I do believe
Speaker 1: it's a thing, but this is like, but this is
Speaker 1: like fucking the most depraved shit I've ever heard.
Speaker 2: So and for all these guys, all these guys, all
Speaker 2: the research I did, multiple articles, kept being like their
Speaker 2: parents were insane. They got hit and It's like what
Speaker 2: this is like burying baby's teeth and acreage?
Speaker 1: What are we like?
Speaker 2: I don't under I don't know. I'm like I'm just
Speaker 2: kind of over it. I'm overhearing about how sad these
Speaker 2: bullied and abused boys are. Like I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and fuck the Philly police. Fuck that's I mean, so fucked. Oh,
Speaker 2: I'm like shivering. This was like so gross. It's probably
Speaker 2: the most horrific, and like that's why I get why
Speaker 2: they're like these are the most infamous crimes and like
Speaker 2: really bad. But I don't know, I just want like research.
Speaker 2: Maybe I'll talk to my niece about this. She's doing
Speaker 2: some forensic psych I don't know. I'm like a noise
Speaker 2: get her on the pod.
Speaker 1: Well, we don't have a guest for today's episode, so
Speaker 1: we can go right into the post mortem. Well this
Speaker 1: is terrible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, any episode in SVU that is man up, man down,
Speaker 2: manhunt mand it's not gonna be good if.
Speaker 1: There's a Sorry, we didn't even have a guest to
Speaker 1: cleanse the palette for this one. We're just going straight
Speaker 1: from horrific, horrific crimes to our post mortem, where I mean,
Speaker 1: oh god, I'm like, I think.
Speaker 2: The darkness that exists in people and how the authorities
Speaker 2: and the powers that be allow it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's what stuff listen.
Speaker 2: Am I embarrassed that I got into some Instagram debates
Speaker 2: recently about the man versus Bear? Yes, but I would
Speaker 2: like to say, now, this is our episode two thirty nine. Okay,
Speaker 2: how many of our episodes was it a woman perportrator?
Speaker 1: Under ten? I would say probably five mm hmm.
Speaker 2: I just don't get matter, like you're a logical A
Speaker 2: bear's all bad. It's just some men, And I'm like,
Speaker 2: I don't, like, you must be just fucking with us,
Speaker 2: Like I don't know how you hear about the Giselle
Speaker 2: Pellow cook case and are like that's it, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: what more is there to argue when you have the
Speaker 2: whole ti How do you say it's some men when
Speaker 2: it was the whole town.
Speaker 1: It's not all men, but it's only men, like it's
Speaker 1: never a woman. That's Like, I wonder what it would
Speaker 1: be like to just like torture a person and keep
Speaker 1: them in a fucking tiny little box under my bed
Speaker 1: and like you know, do all this shit and feed
Speaker 1: them their own poop or whatever, like it's never a
Speaker 1: woman that's like, let's do that, you know, or.
Speaker 2: They're just getting away with it more like I don't know,
Speaker 2: but it just I just like I don't get. But
Speaker 2: I also don't get why dudes have been so obsessed
Speaker 2: with like wanting to be alone in the woods. And
Speaker 2: then one guy was like, I don't understand how the
Speaker 2: woods makes it any more or less dangerous, Like just no,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I have to stop wasting my time.
Speaker 2: But I was just curious. I'm like, all the crimes
Speaker 2: that we like cover rarely a woman. I'm thinking, you know,
Speaker 2: the moms that let their like children die in New York,
Speaker 2: like in cages and stuff like that.
Speaker 4: I'm thinking of those women.
Speaker 1: Kameelian Woman is based on Eileen Warno's but still she
Speaker 1: was you know, it seems like she was mostly acting
Speaker 1: in self defense.
Speaker 4: There were some couples. There's couples.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was the woman that set up the double catfish,
Speaker 2: but that wasn't even you know.
Speaker 1: There was Casey Novak and her friends doing what they
Speaker 1: want with the male d We even cover it. We
Speaker 1: didn't even cover it. Yeah, we've done that one we did. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Amelia Chase episode good. Okay, no, there's so many, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it's under ten for sure, and like it's and you
Speaker 1: know it's it is just it's a wild statistic that
Speaker 1: they keep fighting against. But but then.
Speaker 2: Saying how they're logical, Like that's what's annoying too. It's
Speaker 2: like all not being able to see things outside their
Speaker 2: outside their perspectives. And it's also I'm an idiot for
Speaker 2: fighting online, and they're probably idiots for also doing the
Speaker 2: same thing. So I don't know who I'm talking to,
Speaker 2: but it is this thing of like why wouldn't it
Speaker 2: be logical if you know men are dangerous, wouldn't it
Speaker 2: be logical to watch your fucking back?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Also, though every man can really only speak for himself,
Speaker 1: like every man can only say I would never do that.
Speaker 1: You know, you can only go I'm a good guy whatever.
Speaker 1: But when guys like start to speak for their friends
Speaker 1: or like none of my friends would do that, it's
Speaker 1: like you don't fucking know that. I mean, like, I know,
Speaker 1: Promising Young Woman is like a movie, but like you
Speaker 1: know bo Burnham's characters the Night is a nice guy,
Speaker 1: you know, like probably none of his friends ever thought
Speaker 1: that you know, the.
Speaker 2: Whole thing with the Pellicoat case to where it's like
Speaker 2: there are people that showed up and didn't participate, or
Speaker 2: they saw the messages on the message board and didn't
Speaker 2: go but knew it was happening and still didn't alert
Speaker 2: any authorities. So it's like, what is a good person
Speaker 2: watching a rape is considered good and not helping?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 2: And then one guy was like talking about polar bears
Speaker 2: and surviving polar bear or something, and I go, well,
Speaker 2: now I know you're a fucking idiot. I'm like, if
Speaker 2: a polar bear finds you, you're done. Yeah, Like I
Speaker 2: know the bear laws? Why good night, right, that's the bear.
Speaker 1: The bear laws.
Speaker 2: No, But it's like, yeah, I don't want to be
Speaker 2: mulled by a bear for sure, but I feel like
Speaker 2: maybe if I stand still or look down or like
Speaker 2: you know, it might sniff me and leave.
Speaker 4: Like wild Boys.
Speaker 2: Steve O had honey and marshmallows on his nipples and
Speaker 2: a but and a bear came and ate all that
Speaker 2: and licked him and did one chomp. But like Steve
Speaker 2: O is fine, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I just I don't want I don't think
Speaker 1: I can take a bear, that's not the thing. But
Speaker 1: you're gonna take your chances with the bear because.
Speaker 2: If you ignore a guy, then it's like, why didn't
Speaker 2: you say hi to me? And then it's like and
Speaker 2: then people would be like, well, why were you alone
Speaker 2: in the woods, And that's what's annoying too. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: bear mace works on both men and bears, So it's like,
Speaker 2: who do you want a bear mace?
Speaker 4: More so if I have bear Mason, I'm ready.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know what bears like revenge,
Speaker 2: but I think I'd rather be mauled by a bear.
Speaker 2: I think I'm like if the this is the because
Speaker 2: I'd rather be mauled by a bear than hunting ground,
Speaker 2: be kept in a cabin and be sent out in
Speaker 2: the woods and darted and like sexually, yeah, like I
Speaker 2: don't want to be Colleen Stand. I would rather be
Speaker 2: eaten by a bear than Colleen Stand. And I'd rather
Speaker 2: take my chance as being mauled by a bear. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 2: And that's and that's your right and that's my right.
Speaker 2: And that proves another point where it's like, oh, you
Speaker 2: don't accept a woman's answers, got it?
Speaker 1: You guys are stupid. Let me explain to you why
Speaker 1: you're wrong about how you feel about your own safety.
Speaker 2: Such a fun and then I kept being like, but
Speaker 2: this is the game. Would you rather have no elbows
Speaker 2: or no knees?
Speaker 1: It's like we yeah, you don't want either, but like,
Speaker 1: this is the game.
Speaker 4: Why are you all desperate? I don't know it so frustrating.
Speaker 1: No hellbos are no knees.
Speaker 2: Jesus, all right, well wait, I also have a brad
Speaker 2: I forgot someone gifted me a la boo boo.
Speaker 1: Uh I got one for Rosie? Did I tell you no?
Speaker 2: But you know how I was like, I don't even
Speaker 2: want one, and then the moment it came into my arms,
Speaker 2: I went, this is the greatest stay of of.
Speaker 1: Course, I knew you would want a lak boo boo
Speaker 1: the minute, like just the whole thing about them. Like
Speaker 1: so I was like, so, Rosie's been asking me forever
Speaker 1: to get her one, and I was like, I'm not,
Speaker 1: I'm not, But I did go on PopMart I created account.
Speaker 1: I said, notify me when they come on sale. Whenever
Speaker 1: they go on sale, they're gone in three seconds, like
Speaker 1: you know, the whole drill. And then in the mom group.
Speaker 1: Somebody just goes, oh, this place in uh, this place,
Speaker 1: this store Japanese like toy store has one, and I
Speaker 1: went and they just had a ton of them, and
Speaker 1: I was like, great, give me one of those. And
Speaker 1: they were like marked up like twice what they are
Speaker 1: on the internet, but still not crazy, like I think
Speaker 1: I spent sixty bucks. It was her end of the
Speaker 1: year kindergarten graduation gift and she was gagged when she
Speaker 1: got it. I mean she was so excited. She got
Speaker 1: the little sea salt coconut. It's like a little like
Speaker 1: light gray light bluey kind of color. Yeah, and she
Speaker 1: loves it so much. Which one did you get? Why
Speaker 1: didn't open my box yet? I want to tape it.
Speaker 2: So I brought it home and now I've been home
Speaker 2: for like a day and a half.
Speaker 4: And so I'm gonna open it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I want to create content. I gotta make vide Yeah, no,
Speaker 2: I'm because I also in Atlanta, this cute girl. So
Speaker 2: the store is called Sister and Roswell and it's like
Speaker 2: really fun stuff and I want to make a video
Speaker 2: with all the things they gave me. Like some our
Speaker 2: listeners just know us like a sticky note that looks
Speaker 2: like Ravioli.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I can't.
Speaker 1: I can't even I can't. Just it's like so fucking
Speaker 1: cute when you post your unboxing vie and then.
Speaker 2: My sard my sardine fucking candle. This is the third one.
Speaker 2: I'm like, so easy to shop for. People will not
Speaker 2: stop getting me the streaming candles. And if you're Marishka's pr,
Speaker 2: we have a word with you. How dare she do
Speaker 2: call her dad? How dam how dare I?
Speaker 1: Just like, I look, I respect everybody's everybody is like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not I'm not saying I don't like
Speaker 1: that podcaster because I don't know her very well, but like,
Speaker 1: what is the like secret thing about her that everybody's
Speaker 1: so obsessed with? Like is she so good of an interviewer?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Jane Fonda said she was a great interviewer. I have
Speaker 2: no idea. I mean, she is very hot. I don't
Speaker 2: I was not a part of the journey and that
Speaker 2: I didn't have Spotify, so I've never like able to
Speaker 2: get to it. Even though she has such good guests
Speaker 2: and I want them, and she's built an empire.
Speaker 1: I mean, listen to get a hill. It's such a
Speaker 1: smart business woman. But like I've seen some clips of interviews,
Speaker 1: and I guess it's like she asks people she wears sweatpants,
Speaker 1: what's your favorite sex position? And people like that because
Speaker 1: that's not always what you get in an interview. But
Speaker 1: that's also it's understood she's gonna ask questions like that,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So it's not the same
Speaker 1: as like if like Fallon asks you what your favorite sex?
Speaker 4: Yeah. She I think she disarms people.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's like Howard Stern vibes or she's able to
Speaker 2: like get people to spill and be vulnerable about things.
Speaker 2: And then I read an interview with her and like
Speaker 2: if a celebrity says certain things are off limits, they
Speaker 2: just won't have them on. Yeah, so you know you
Speaker 2: have to be like down, And I think it's like
Speaker 2: comfortable and she's in I.
Speaker 1: Will say, I will say I was thinking about it,
Speaker 1: and I think that, like I think she's gonna go
Speaker 1: on call her daddy and talk a lot more about
Speaker 1: like her life and like let's go like her mom
Speaker 1: and the doc and everything, and that if she was
Speaker 1: to come on our pod, it would be more SVU centric.
Speaker 1: So I do think we would get conversation out of
Speaker 1: her that would be different. Yeah, yeah, let me go
Speaker 1: to AMDB pro.
Speaker 4: Who the fuck do we need to talk to where
Speaker 4: we could help people?
Speaker 1: Okay, quick postmortem though of this episode. I do think
Speaker 1: we need to be a little bit more paying attention
Speaker 1: to the kids that are torturing and killing animals. I mean,
Speaker 1: like every single serial killer we've been talking about lately,
Speaker 1: it's like killing animals young, killing animals young, Like, let's
Speaker 1: get them immediately into an intensive treatment program.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Michelle Obama, you know you you raise your daughters
Speaker 2: and love your boys. That's what she said, and you
Speaker 2: need to start raising your boys. Yeah, start raising your boys. Yeah,
Speaker 2: stop excusing this crazy behavior and not expecting them to
Speaker 2: do anything while your eldest daughters are out there like
Speaker 2: hanging clothes on the clothesline.
Speaker 1: Not happening with me, baby, It ends with me. But anyway,
Speaker 1: obviously horrific episode. Don't partner up with a psychopath. He's
Speaker 1: probably gonna kill you. I don't know any other takeaways
Speaker 1: before we hop into our what would sister peg and.
Speaker 2: I think we learned this with the Long Island Killer too,
Speaker 2: the Go Go Beach or whatnot. But it's like, I
Speaker 2: don't know, if you think your loved one is missing
Speaker 2: and dead, you really got to fight the cops.
Speaker 4: It's the only way. Maybe you have to push.
Speaker 2: You have to push, You have to push, you have
Speaker 2: to bother them because they don't want to do work,
Speaker 2: they don't want to look into you, and if they
Speaker 2: don't value you because you X, Y and Z whatever
Speaker 2: whatever the bias they have, Like it's because of people's
Speaker 2: loved ones bothering and bothering and bothering and then this
Speaker 2: woman escaping, like they don't even that's they don't even
Speaker 2: do police work. Like how often also on this podcast
Speaker 2: where we're like and a tip came in, this person
Speaker 2: confessed or like they ended up this or this person escaped,
Speaker 2: Like it's like they don't even do police work. It's yeah,
Speaker 2: except like the one that's based on the Robin Williams,
Speaker 2: like that guy he really cared but then but the
Speaker 2: but the guy went free, Yeah, because they couldn't charge you.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's just like it's frustrating.
Speaker 2: You know my advice, listen to our podcast, but don't
Speaker 2: pay attention to the worlds and you're life. We'll be
Speaker 2: better honestly, that would be my number one thing for
Speaker 2: mental health.
Speaker 4: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: I yeah, I have like not been able to really
Speaker 1: look at my phone lately. That's probably why I did
Speaker 1: not see Crypto Murder House.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but someone said that the pot has gotten too
Speaker 2: much for them, but they listened to the intros.
Speaker 1: I go, great, get your joy, Get your joy, babes,
Speaker 1: get it, get it all right, let's go to what
Speaker 1: would mister Peg Do? This is our weekly segment where
Speaker 1: we direct you to a book, an article, an organization,
Speaker 1: a doc something to give you more info about what
Speaker 1: we talked about in today's episode. And this week for WWSPD,
Speaker 1: we wanted to point you to the Oxygen documentary series
Speaker 1: that Lisa mentioned I think a few times in her research.
Speaker 1: It's called Manifesto of a Serial Killer. It's a three
Speaker 1: part series that does a full investigation into Leonard Lake
Speaker 1: and Charles ng And unfortunately I couldn't find it actually
Speaker 1: on Oxygen, like there were only previews for it, but
Speaker 1: it's on Peacock. So for anybody who wants to learn
Speaker 1: more about this truly disturbing case, you can head over
Speaker 1: to Peacock. I believe it also might be on Apple,
Speaker 1: But we are linking to Peacock in our show notes
Speaker 1: and we will link to it in our stories and
Speaker 1: those get saved in our WWSPD highlights on our Instagram page,
Speaker 1: which is that s Messed Up Pod. Come on over there.
Speaker 1: It's a great way to follow us, talk to us,
Speaker 1: ask us to do certain episodes whatever you know.
Speaker 2: Hell yes, and next week we will be doing liberties.
Speaker 2: Kind of sounds more fun than what the episode's gonna be.
Speaker 1: But the lemu Emu will not be there.
Speaker 4: Wait, what is that?
Speaker 1: Liberty? Mutual limu EMU unpaid ad, unpaid ad, Season ten,
Speaker 1: episode twenty one. Thanks for all your support listening. I
Speaker 1: love meeting you guys in person. It's really a it's
Speaker 1: really a joy and a pleasure.
Speaker 4: So thank you.
Speaker 1: See you next week. Bye bye.
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us, or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: at That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com. Listen to
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Speaker 2: And follow us personally at Kara Klank and at Glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
Speaker 2: and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain, and.
Speaker 1: To our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner,
Speaker 1: and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly
Speaker 1: Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive
Speaker 1: producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at
Speaker 1: Exactly Right Media. Dun Dun