1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heat as 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: any type of drug. One of the most popular episodes 10 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 1: the Psychoactive to date has been the one where I 11 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 1: invited my friend Julie Holland to service my co host 12 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: and answer questions with me from you the audience. So 13 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: we're going to record another one of those episodes, and 14 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: we need your questions. Leave us a voicemail with a 15 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: question as d he tells us possible at one eight three, three, seven, 16 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: seven nine sixty, or you can record a voice memo 17 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: and send it to Psychoactive at protozoa dot com. I'm 18 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: sure it's going to be a great second go with this. Hello, 19 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: Psychoactive listeners. Today's episode is the first time I'm actually 20 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: inviting a previous guest right back on to do a 21 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: second conversation, and it's Philippe Bouguas. And the reason I'm 22 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: doing this is because when we talked last time, we 23 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: really focused extensively on his research, first in East Haarlem 24 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: in the nineties and then more recently in Philadelphia, which 25 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: focused especially on people involved in selling crack and sometimes 26 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: other drugs, and we got so caught up in that 27 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: discussion that all his other work, um a whole another 28 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: part of his work, which focuses on injecting drug users 29 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: and others in San Francisco and Los Angeles, even in Tijuana, 30 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: we barely touched on that. And there are some similarities 31 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: between the conversation we had there, but a whole range 32 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: of new themes to address, And so you know, I 33 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: wanted to have a Philip back for a second time 34 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: so we could delve more deeply into this other line 35 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: of work. So Philip, thank you ever so much for 36 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 1: coming back on Psychoactive with me, and thank you for 37 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: for bringing me back. I think a shorter way of 38 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: introducing me is just probably to say I'm an obsessive, 39 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: compulsive researcher on drugs since the mid nineteen eighties. But 40 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: thank you. I should then thank you for being an 41 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: obsessive compulsive and applying your subsessive cold energies to this 42 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: area because I tell you what I what I had 43 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: done before we talked last time, and I refreshed myself 44 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: this time was taking out this book, Righteous Dope Fiend, 45 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: which you co authored with a graduate student of yours, 46 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,239 Speaker 1: Jeff Schoenberg. And it's not just a written book, it's 47 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: actually a photo ethnography that it's full of these stunning 48 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: and incredible, you know, black and white photos, and it 49 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: was based upon the research that you it for I 50 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: think twelve years from to two thousand and six, basically 51 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: living with essentially homeless drug injectors, mostly heroin injectors in 52 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: San Francisco. My first question for you is when you 53 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: look at that community that you got to know back then, 54 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: and obviously there were certain things that were distinctive about 55 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: them when they were born, the time they grew up, etcetera. 56 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: But do you think that many of the observations you 57 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: made and the generalizations you came away with and the 58 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: insights would be generally true of a range of drug 59 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: using communities today around the United States. You know, frankly 60 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: the age old French saying pluenge produced m M shows 61 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: is the tragedy of of drug use. At the current moment, 62 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: it's actually gotten worse because of how the prohibitionist policies 63 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: have pushed drugs into greater toxicity, namely fentanel and now 64 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: even worse than fentanel. The combining of animal tranquilizers zylazine 65 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: to the fentanil to remediate some of the disadvantages of 66 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: fentanil but keep their psycho you know what injectors see 67 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: as the psychoactive um advantages of fent nil over over heroin, 68 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: so that over you know, poppy plant based heroin. So 69 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: that is the the current situation that's hitting the streets 70 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: now across different parts of the United States at different rates, 71 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: with of all places, Philadelphia being the epicenter of all 72 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: of this is the addition of zylazine to fentanil. So 73 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: it's the two most toxic products that when mixed together, 74 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: create a whole slew of bodily problems. Basically, zylazine, to 75 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: put it in popular terms, asphyxiates, you know, sells randomly um, 76 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: so it isn't the abscesses that pop up that are 77 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: so horrendous are are not even popping up necessarily at 78 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: the site where someone injects. Zylazine is also a different 79 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: kind of sedative. It's not meant for human consumptions. Zylazine 80 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: has meant, you know, to put elephants to sleep, you know, 81 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: when you transport them. And the reason why it came 82 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: first to Philadelphia is because the horse breeders, who you 83 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: know often win the sort of biggest you know, US 84 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: horse races, raise their thoroughbreds in the highlands of Puerto 85 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: Rico because it's cheaper where it's just a great environment 86 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: for horses. And the stable. The people working in the stables, 87 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: they were underpaid, partially employed for only part of the season, 88 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: and because these horses are so valuable, they obviously knocked 89 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: them out with zylazine. So the zylazine made its way 90 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: into the drug supply that the that that the stable 91 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: users had gotten involved in. And one of the big 92 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: poorest migration routes between rural Puerto Rico and the United 93 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: States is through the poorest neighborhood of Philadelphia, which just 94 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: so happens to be the four state mid Atlantic headquarters 95 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:25,559 Speaker 1: for distributing retail level drugs to the United States. Philip, 96 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: let me let me interrupt your second So I just 97 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: want to get a handled on this. So you know, 98 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: we know, going back a number of years ago, when 99 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: we begin to see the emergence of fentinel, there's all 100 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 1: sorts of obvious reasons why fentinel starts to become more 101 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: on the president, first in certain neighborhoods and then increasingly 102 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: around the country. And that's because it's, you know, it's 103 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: it's cheaper and easier to smuggles a fifteen hundred times 104 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: more potent than heroin. You can, you know, just put 105 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: it in the mail and effectively sentence or hundreds of 106 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: thousands of doses. It was a way of cutting heroines. Basically, 107 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: dealers could say, you know, make more money on their sales. 108 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: And my collection from talking to people in the harmonduction 109 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 1: world and elsewhere was that initially people preferred the heroin, 110 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: but over a period of time, you know, you now 111 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: have a whole new generation that actually prefers the fent anyl, 112 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: And in fact, fentimyl has become kind of on the 113 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: present and it's a powerful opioid, So it kind of 114 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: makes sense that it would have gotten out there and 115 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: the way it did with all the deadly, deadly consequences. 116 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: But when you're talking about zylazine, what was the incentive 117 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: A on the part of the suppliers and the dealers 118 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: to put it in there was a similar defentanyl? And 119 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: B is there in fact a real demands? I mean, 120 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: are there people on the street who are saying I 121 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: want that combination? And why? Yeah? No? And it's a 122 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: simple it's a simple answer. Longer legs to the high. 123 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: The problem with fentanyl is that precisely what makes it 124 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: more psychoactively fun to people is that it doesn't last 125 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: as long. It's half life is shorter, so you get 126 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,239 Speaker 1: that more manic up and down own, which is where 127 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: people who like who, who adore that pleasure get their pleasure. 128 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: With the addition of xylazine, does it gives it what 129 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: they call on the street longer legs, So fentnille has 130 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: short legs compared to poppy plant based heroin. The other 131 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: caveat um Ethan is that drug users are like wine aficionados. 132 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: They develop these tastes and there's groups of them, Like 133 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: one thing, groups of them that like another, but they 134 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: really sort of know too much about what they're talking about. 135 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: And so it's, you know, like any high art, it's 136 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: this sort of to use populist psychobabble language, you know, obsessive, compulsive, 137 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: you know, love for the effects. What someone figured out was, 138 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: you know, you add it's called trank on the streets 139 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: of Philadelphia. Just the name itself tells you what the 140 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: drug feels like to some extent, trank. And when you 141 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: you know, when you're doing ethno rafe there, you you know, 142 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: you're walking around, you can't quite believe what you're seeing. 143 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: People are sort of moving around it almost in slow motion, 144 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: just completely just sedated, beyond what you've ever seen with 145 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: normal you know, with normal fetanel or normal heroin. So, Philip, 146 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: you're saying that, I mean, we're talking here that about 147 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: a drug combination that the drug consumers are actually seeking 148 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: out because they like the sensory psychoactive effect, but that 149 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: unfortunately as health consequences that are even more devastating for 150 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: their lives. Yeah, but it's it's it's more tragic than that. 151 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: You know, there's a huge section of them that seek 152 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: it out and then the rest of them have it 153 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: totally imposed on them, so it's sort of a self 154 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: fulfilling thing. It's easier for the sellers to make more 155 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 1: money and bring in new people. It's started basically measurably 156 00:09:56,040 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: in two thousand sixteen in Philadelphia, where the first you know, 157 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,599 Speaker 1: place where public health sees it is in the corners reports. 158 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: So it's in the in the poor people, you know, 159 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: in the first overdoses who occur on a large scale. 160 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,319 Speaker 1: And this is what's so sad when you look at 161 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: the per capita overdoses, you compare Philadelphia even just to 162 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: New York City, you know, it's just like way, way, way, 163 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: way more. There's no way to look at it and 164 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: tell the difference with your you know, with the naked eye. 165 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: That's the problem with the prohibitionist way we do drug 166 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: testing and drug monitoring. If we monitored drugs to protect citizens, 167 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: you know, protect residents, protect human beings in the United 168 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: States from killing themselves, damaging themselves, and damaging others. We 169 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 1: would be able to have clear data that's rapidly alerted 170 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: to people so people understand the risks of what they're doing. 171 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: People don't realize it. They just think it's fun, you know, 172 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: think of it. You're you're seventeen years old. You know, 173 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: you want to have fun, and you're you. You think 174 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: that you're immortal. And that's the tragedy. You know, when 175 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: you're walking down the street, and and it is interesting 176 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: because because it's so sedating, you know, you'll see people 177 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: bickering and so forth, but it's not like they're moving 178 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: fast and you know, and able to punch each other 179 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: or you know, get angry at each other the way 180 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: you can when you're taking a stimulant. I can hear 181 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: outside you are about the current work. But I do 182 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: really want to pull you back just a little bits 183 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: who to some of the earlier work you did and 184 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: the book Righteous Dope theme, because I've just immersed myself 185 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: in its absolutely fascinating. I mean, you spend thousands and 186 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 1: thousands of hours with people living under the freeway, in 187 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: in in back areas. I mean essentially you know either 188 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: a percent homeless or mostly homeless, people who were totally 189 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 1: committed to heroin. At one point, there's a phrase you used. 190 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: You said that you began to understand this community as 191 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: forming a community of addicted bodies that is held together 192 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: by a moral economy of sharing. Just explain what you 193 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: mean by that and whether that still applies today, which 194 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: I assume it does. It does. And actually I want 195 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: to also, you know, shout out to Jeff Schoenberg. For 196 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: every five hours I spent out there, he spent fifty literally, 197 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: That's how and why he got such good pictures. I mean, 198 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: he's a talented photographer, just in and of he just 199 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: has that knack. But then when you become you know, 200 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: such a skilled ethnographer and so dedicated at it. He 201 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: was working at it full time and didn't have any 202 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: other responsibilities. He was able to really and and and 203 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: and he's also a gentle nice person. People appreciated him, 204 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: and they invited him in, and he was giving people, 205 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,359 Speaker 1: you know, copies of the photographs he was taking of them, 206 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: and they really appreciate it. They started decorating their encampments 207 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: with Jeff's photographs. And so that made this what we 208 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: call photo ethnography possible um and it tempers you know, 209 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 1: the intense you know, academic analysis that's also in the book, 210 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,599 Speaker 1: because I wanted to set it in the context of 211 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: d industrialization. What comes through in the book is it 212 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: goes a lot deeper there. I mean you and especially 213 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: Jeff I guess. I mean, you are sometimes spending the 214 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: night in these homeless encountenments. You know, you're sharing foods, 215 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: you're sharing money, You're getting to know their families, um, 216 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: and you know, unlike say some of the crack sellers 217 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: in Philly or Harlem, you know, you're also living with 218 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: people who are sometimes having bathed in weeks, who are 219 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: in horrific you know, health, who can smell terribly, who 220 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: are shooting themselves and puking. I mean, you describe a 221 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: lot of this kind of being around. Did it take 222 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: some getting used to to just be part of that community? Yeah? 223 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: First you feel like a kuk and you're embarrassed. I was. Yeah, 224 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: I was chair of medical school department at the time 225 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: at UCSF. I would park my car on the corner 226 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: where they hang out, and I'd still be dressed in 227 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: you know what you have to dress as a chair, 228 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: and I would you know whatever, you know, go outside 229 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: dressed like that and then see, you know, every everyone 230 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: walking by would think that I was the upper class 231 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: addict going to get their fixed. That was what actually 232 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: I was most embarrassed about. Initially, I was just embarrassed 233 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: that everyone thought that I was, you know, you know whatever, 234 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: a drug addict. After a while, I just didn't care, 235 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: and I didn't even notice the passers by, just the 236 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: way they don't in some sense, and the passers by 237 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: didn't seem to notice me anymore. I don't I don't 238 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: quite know how that magic takes place. It was interesting. 239 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: I remember vividly the first time I brought Jeff down 240 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: to the scene. I just couldn't believe that he was 241 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: able to hang out in the scene that we were 242 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: in without being freaked out by it. He could see 243 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: both their desire to be documented, their need to tell 244 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: their story, and and they they want their story to 245 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: be heard. They're proud of who they are, you know, 246 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: outlaws in that sense. These were people, you know, at 247 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: the at the end of a long life of being 248 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: in drug use. But I think you pointed out that 249 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: very few of the white um you know, the white homeless, 250 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: the white drug addics, had actually been in juvenile delinquent 251 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: institutions as opposed to the blacks. Pretty but it was 252 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: just to go back though fully today that free as 253 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: you use, a community of addicted bodies that is held 254 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: together by a moral economy of sharing. Just elaborate on 255 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: sure well, I was funded by the National Institutes of 256 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: Health to reduce HIV and hepatitis C, you know, and 257 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: I'm a conscientious researcher. I wanted to get practical data 258 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: on how one could you know, reduce the transmission of 259 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: blood borne diseases through shared needle use. As a result, 260 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: I looked, you know, much more more, much more closely 261 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: than is normal on site to sharing practices as they occur, 262 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: and I would discuss those practices and what people understood 263 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: about the risks and what they understood when I would 264 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: tell them the public health perspective on what they were 265 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: doing and the risks they were taking. So I got 266 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of detail on that, and I realized that 267 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: what public health was defining as you know, sort of 268 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: a self destructive, pathological thing. Sharing was seen as an 269 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: ethical responsibility by them because what what they all organized 270 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: their lives around is not becoming what they called dop sick, 271 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: not going into the horrible, horrible withdrawal symptoms that are 272 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: so you know, that are so devastating to anyone who's 273 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: physically dependent on heroin, and you know, it's super visible. 274 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: It's like it's you know, the person is sweating, the 275 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: person is getting irritated, the person is fidgeting. None of 276 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: their cells are behaving normally anymore. So you know, the 277 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: skin cells are itching and getting irritated with ashes, and 278 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: they can no longer hold any food in and so forth. 279 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: So when someone is like that, you you want to 280 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: help them. I mean you, even if you're a schmuck, 281 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: you want to help them, you know, I mean, you 282 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: you feel sorry. You can't not feel sorry for them. 283 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: So as a result, you know, they would you know, 284 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: give them part of their needle, and you know, in 285 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: that process, you know, most likely infect them if the 286 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: person wasn't already infected with hepatitis C. But the thing 287 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: that they were getting most of all was abscesses, blood 288 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: borne abscesses from the sharing of needles, and also just 289 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: from the fact they didn't have they didn't have obviously 290 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: running wood. So you just you can't you can't clean 291 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: your hands, you can't clean your body, you know, effectively 292 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: or consistently, and so forth. It was that very visible 293 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: dynamic of suffering that was based in an ethics of sharing, 294 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: and there was no communication of of understanding between their 295 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 1: perspective and priorities versus you know what the outsider perspective, 296 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: the rational perspective of public health and clinicians is. Since 297 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: I was working in a medical school, I told all 298 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: the doctors that I explained that I said, I was 299 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: trying to teach them how to engage, you know, talk 300 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: to someone about the priorities of their life, how they 301 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: can manage less destructively their their veins, you know, and 302 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 1: what they need to do about, you know, their nutrition 303 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: with respect to how much they can enjoy drugs. They 304 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: only want to hear things in terms of how can 305 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: they maximize either minimize the pain of their withdrawal, depending 306 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: on what stage they are in their relationship to the drugs. 307 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 1: You know. All many of them just thought themselves as 308 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: staying well. They weren't trying to get high anymore. They 309 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: were just trying to keep withdrawal symptoms at bay, whereas 310 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 1: others were still in the ecstasy of pursuing I'm I'm 311 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: I'm having fun every day. Um. They're also drinking huge 312 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: amounts of cisco berry. Right, that's a completely legal toxic 313 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: you know alcohol, right, cisco berry, you know, fortified wine 314 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: and getting h cirrhosis of the liver and smoking huge 315 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: amounts of of cigarettes. And in addition to the crack 316 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: they were smoking or the crack that they would melt 317 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: into their heroine. So you know, they were being bombarded 318 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: also by you know, sort of predatory industry that makes 319 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: so much money off of killing people simultaneously, and it 320 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: just happens to be called legal. We'll be talking more 321 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: after we hear this ad, Philip. You know, I'm just wondering, 322 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: I mean NIA and it's I mean no longer as 323 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: much today. But you know, they were anti harm reduction. 324 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: They would tell people seeking grant funding, uh not to 325 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: use the phrase harm reduction. They were reluctant to get 326 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: on board on needle exchange, the whole thing. And they've 327 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: never been all that big on funding, if not bography 328 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: in a big way. You know, it's old brain science 329 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: and addiction and all this kind of stuff. But somehow 330 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: you were successful in getting funding that resulted in these fascinating, 331 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: fascinating books and articles you've read in How did you 332 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: manage that? Well, you know, this was the pre extreme 333 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: right wing turn in the United States. Ethan. They reached 334 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: out to me, they reached out to me actually way 335 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: back under crack, because I was like the only you know, 336 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: the only person at least that the press was interviewing 337 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: that knew what crack looked like, how it was used. 338 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: They didn't even know if it was smoked or swallowed 339 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: or or injected, right, They were that ignorant. There was 340 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: an awareness that they didn't know what was going on. 341 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: They didn't even know what the problems were and were 342 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: being blindsided by everything. So there was a project officer 343 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: who did believe in needle exchange. Actually, his his name, 344 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: actually he's retired now, was Richard Needle. Ironically that's his 345 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: real name, not not his This was in the late eighties, 346 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: early nineties. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so he actually realized 347 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: that I, you know, it was clueless about the N 348 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: I H and could never write the right kind of things. 349 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: So he just through a little tid, tiny tidbit of 350 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: money at me, you know, anthropologists never have any money 351 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: for the research, and said, you know, tell us, you know, 352 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: tell us what drugs are the drugs of preference and 353 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: what's going on. We don't know anything. And so he 354 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: started inviting me into their things. And then I actually 355 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: realized my gosh, this is just you know, it's boring 356 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: to write these grants, but you can do it. You 357 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: just got to use their language. But what I wanted 358 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: to do actually is prove that my qualitative participant observation. 359 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: Anthropological methods are really important quote unquote scientific methods. They 360 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: are scientific methods. They tell you about reality. They're actually 361 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: also very subtle because you have to pay attention to 362 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: your own biases in order to be able to trust 363 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: your own observations, because it's you that's doing it with 364 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: your biases. So when you're self critically self aware and 365 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: do it with a vision to trying to document reality, 366 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,239 Speaker 1: knowing that you're distorting reality because of your biases, you 367 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: can actually do important work documenting reality, or at least 368 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: try to. They're they're a health thing. They care about 369 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: blood borne diseases. This was the height of the HIV epidemic, 370 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 1: the height of you know, hepatitis C epidemic, and you know, 371 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: they still didn't know whether, you know, whether sex was 372 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: more risky than you know, injection drug use or which 373 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 1: one you know, how it was being transmitted in terms 374 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: of his relative risks, and people hadn't you know, thought 375 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: of for some reason. It's so, you know, why didn't 376 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 1: they think of it. They hadn't thought of looking at 377 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: how people actually inject. When do they share, how do 378 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: they share? What do they mean about sharing? Who do 379 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: they share with when they say they share? And you know, 380 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: all they had was quantitative data and interviews that are 381 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,640 Speaker 1: embarrassing to the person being interviewed. You know, do you 382 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: use a condom? Well, you want to say no, I 383 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: don't use a condom and sound like a creep. No, 384 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: you say, yeah, I use a condom. You know, oh, 385 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: every now and then you know it might you know, 386 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: I might forget or it might whatever. You know, you 387 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: can actually have those conversations in a real way, in 388 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 1: a non stigmatizing way when you make friends with someone. 389 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: So I wanted to find out useful things on how 390 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: diseases were being transmitted in a practical way. And also, 391 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: you know, anthropology doesn't tend often to force itself to 392 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,959 Speaker 1: try to be humbly useful. I wanted to be humbly useful, 393 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: useful to the people I was studying, so that there 394 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: would be more information on what could be done to reduce, 395 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: you know, how obviously devastating their use of heroin was 396 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: on them and the way they were being policed, and 397 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: the way that services were mismanaging them and mistreating them 398 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: even when it wanted to help them. It's crucial. I mean, 399 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: I think listeners are psychoactive will know that. One of 400 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: my pet beeves is the inadequate funding that's come from 401 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: the National Student on Drug Abuse for ethnographic research on 402 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: drug use and drug markets forever and ever. And when 403 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: we look today at the problems around cententyl and not 404 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: knowing much about how and why Centinel is being used, 405 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: much less how it's being distributed and how it's getting 406 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: into the drug supply. I mean, that's just a failure 407 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: of of directing funding in the right way in the 408 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: right area. And if they were doing it, it might 409 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: actually be saving tens of thousands of lives. Yeah, with 410 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: with a with a cheap ethnographic project, you can actually 411 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: find out what's really going on as opposed to the 412 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: self self desirable responses people are giving. Exactly, Philip, I mean, 413 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: just you know, reading it though, I mean, it's just 414 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: an immersion into this world of people living at really 415 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: maybe in one in some respects the lowest wrongs of 416 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 1: American society just seen as basically refused by by so 417 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: much of America. Right, and you describe you know, complicated lives. 418 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: All of the people living on the street have kids, 419 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 1: sometimes many kids. Although they're typically not much in touch 420 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: with them, they still some of them, you are in 421 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: touch with their families. So they're going in and out 422 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 1: of legal jobs, illegal jobs, hustling, begging, selling, you name it, 423 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: but allies that also revolved it seems around this kind 424 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: of daily more more than daily practice of sharing heroin 425 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: where you know, it's everything where you know, where people's 426 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: characters and needs come out about about their about greed, 427 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: about generosity. I mean, people are getting you know, dope 428 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: sick because they don't have their fix. I mean it 429 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: just you describe this incredibly intimate um scene of folks 430 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: kind of you know fighting, You're getting violent another and 431 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: then and yet then backing one another up in these 432 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: in these situations, and you guys are basically living it. 433 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: You're part of it, right, just watching this stuff. I'm 434 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: just I mean part of me thinks that you know, 435 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: here you see people periodically trying to get their lie 436 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: together and then engaging in the most extraordinary acts of 437 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: self destruction. Um that one can possibly imagine, almost heartbreakingly. So, yeah, 438 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: you're right. And it was hard to understand as initially 439 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: as an outsider, because you see, you know, total solidarity, 440 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: and then the next minute a total betrayal by the 441 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: same person to the same person, you know, to the 442 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: to the same other person, and and and then all 443 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: of a sudden you realize that they are operating with 444 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 1: a with actually a very you know, sort of shared 445 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: sense of moral ethics amongst among one another that isn't 446 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: recognized as ethics by outsiders. Right, it's Tina what the 447 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: one of the main characters was profoundly, profoundly religious, and 448 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: before eating she would insist on saying grace. And then 449 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: when when when we would sleep in the encampment with her, 450 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: she would read a page before she would let people 451 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: fall asleep. She would read a page from the Bible. 452 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: And and this a person was, you know, as she 453 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: would say, stomping on people when they owed her money 454 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: or when she thought she could steal some money from them. 455 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: So she was a very, very tough woman, but was 456 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: operating in a set of set of ethics that she 457 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: was constructing about her life. It sounds like some of 458 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: them came from families where most of the you know, 459 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,719 Speaker 1: kids in the family had landed up getting messed up 460 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: or addicted or dying or into drugs and others. They 461 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: were the only one in the family who had quote 462 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: unquote gone bad in some respect, right, you say, most 463 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: of them growing up in poverty. Um, but you know, 464 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,360 Speaker 1: some of them, uh, you know, can maintaining fairly normal, 465 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: typical lives until they're into their twenties and early thirties 466 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 1: and then spiraling down and out for one reason or another, 467 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 1: some of them having kind of places they can go sleep, 468 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: or periodically having ordinary housing where they can live with family, 469 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: and then coming back to live in these community and 470 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: some of them, it seems that even when they have 471 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: the opportunities, you know, not just a shelter, but even 472 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 1: when you know, there are some progressive housing programs where 473 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: people have an option, continually being drawn back, you know, 474 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: back to the encampments that that is, to some extent, 475 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: their community and their world where you know, they find 476 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: a sort of sustenance. Yeah. And it took us a 477 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: while to realize this. We realized that on some level, 478 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: even if they couldn't say it clearly, you know, you know, 479 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: in in in sort of therapeutic language. They realized they 480 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: had to get the hell out of their families, that 481 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,199 Speaker 1: they were a destructive force to their children, they were 482 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: destructive force to their mother. And so they would dress up, 483 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: you know, they would arrange to take a shower and 484 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: dress up and and go to a family reunion once 485 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: a year, but then remove themselves and go a wall, 486 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: you know, you know for another year or until Easter, 487 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: you know, until an East family reunion Easter celebration or 488 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: or Christmas celebration or whatever this whatever the religious holiday 489 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: would be. That was you know, very very you know, 490 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: very clear to see. And you had different you have 491 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: different family structures also in distinct um ethnic groups. So 492 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: the white families would um hate on their on their 493 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: wayward children more than the African American families, which tended 494 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: to forgive them and allow them back in much more 495 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: rapidly and seek them out. So when when a family 496 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: reunion was being planned, a mother or a cousin, or 497 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: an uncle or a son would come seeking to find 498 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: their father and would ask us to relay the message. Um, 499 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: you know, they were still loved members of their family. 500 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: In that sense, it was possible for us to to 501 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: analyze these things and set them in the larger context 502 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: of you know, you know, you know us um, you know, 503 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: forms of of both political economy and cultural sets of relationships, 504 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: family and gender arrangements. I think might be the most 505 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: fascinating part for me of the book was the ways 506 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: in which you and Jeff describe the differences between the 507 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: white folks and the black folks living in this community. 508 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: And there's always an exception to everyone. You know, there's 509 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: some you know, some blacks who are more like the 510 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: white or whatever. But I mean, you know, it seems 511 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: to cover all areas. I mean, you just mentioned when 512 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: I think about families, where you know, the blacks living 513 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: in the in these in these encampments had you know, 514 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: maintained a closeness to their families. I mean not maybe 515 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: not children, but especially you know, the broader families than 516 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: the whites did. But there seems to be other trends 517 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: as well. I mean, just talk about that. It's how 518 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: they had different tastes and drugs, right, I think with 519 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: crack more common, different ways of injecting. Just say something 520 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: about that. The chapter where we address that the most 521 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: we call intimate apartheid because we wanted to try to explain, uh, 522 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: to two outsiders, how what looks at first sight like 523 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: a multicultural set of a sort of loose array of 524 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: home us, you know, community was actually super super um separated, uh, 525 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: you know, even if only by three yards um by 526 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: by you know, racial antagonism and the exceptions were also dramatic, 527 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: and the people involved in them would always explain them. 528 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: They would explain why they were the exception, and their 529 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: analysis of it then started to make sense. You know. 530 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: The other thing is how they interfaced with services. So 531 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: the most obvious thing is how much more hostile the 532 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: police were to the African Americans. There was just no comparison, right, Uh. 533 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: And also most importantly was what passers by. Who a 534 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: passer by is willing to give a quarter, two or 535 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: a dollar or five dollars or twenty dollar bill. The 536 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: whites could collect a lot more money panhandling, so they 537 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,479 Speaker 1: didn't have to engage in as much illegal activity, They 538 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: didn't have to take risks in some sense. And they 539 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: what they did was they also learned to view themselves 540 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: as broken down, why nose, So that's what they would 541 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: project to the public, and that's a recognizable person they 542 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: would also present themselves as Vietnam veterans. Wait, wait, this 543 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: is true both black and white in terms of presenting 544 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: as Vietnam vets. Yeah yeah, right, yeah, yeah, that's universal. 545 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: That's a universal American experience. But I mean, I mean 546 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: you do also, I mean you sort of describe this 547 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: thing not just public facing, but like you know, there's 548 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: a kind of enterprising black outlaw versus the broken down 549 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: white bomb. And it's not just how they present outwardly 550 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: and one's well dressed and one is in in ragged clothes, right, 551 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: that that's extraordinary to scene. It's not ambiguous either, Yeah, 552 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: I mean it's almost I mean, I mean, it's also 553 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: how they're interacting with one another. You say, the whites 554 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: are going to be more successful at begging than panhandling 555 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: because basically some of the racism and that there was 556 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: also more of a hustling culture in a way, a 557 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: more entrepreneurial culture maybe going on in terms of black culture, right, 558 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: And and they and the whites would get criticized for 559 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: being lazy. Yeah, those guys are just good for nothing. 560 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: All they do is beg. You know, I I have 561 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: self respect. I'm out there hustling you know, I I 562 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: have a sense I dress well. I I spend time 563 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: figuring out where to get clothes, and and I make 564 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: efforts to wash, you know, in the bathroom of the McDonald's, 565 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: you know, when the manager isn't looking and so forth. 566 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: That was very, very clearly articulated by everyone and visible 567 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: in that sense. Well, you also point out that sort 568 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: of black street culture is kind of dominant. I mean, 569 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: not just in this community, but really in much of 570 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: urban America where is there really is not much of 571 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: a sort of white urban street culture anymore, you know. 572 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: I mean, the whole biker gang Hell's Angels thing didn't 573 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: really quite work here. And the kind of white street 574 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: culture that one might have associated with gangs back in 575 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: the earlier part of the twentieth century of Irish and 576 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: Jewish and Italian and other gangs doesn't really operate either. 577 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: And so there's a way in which the black culture 578 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: street culture kind of shapes and frames everything, and the 579 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: whites don't really fit into that very well. Yes, certainly 580 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: in this scene and in this generation. But on the 581 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: other side of San Francisco, in the Hayde Ashbury, there 582 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: was a thriving white young injector scene that was dominated 583 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: by whites, and it's really interesting. It was really interesting 584 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 1: to see how people performed and did real violence. So 585 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: you have whites, Latinos, and blacks, right, the Latinos were 586 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 1: literally caught in between, and they could choose which camp 587 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: they wanted to go to. They were in the minority 588 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: in this scene, and then all of a sudden, their 589 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: whole personality would change in terms of how they did violence, 590 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: which drugs they were preferring, and how they were talking 591 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 1: in each of the two scenes. So, yeah, people we 592 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: were able to sort of morph their cultural preferences, so 593 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: to speak. Well, you know, it was interesting even when 594 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,320 Speaker 1: you get into something as intimate injecting. Yeah, that's incredible, 595 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: you said. Even the ways that the whites and black's 596 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,280 Speaker 1: injected were different, different experience of the injecting, different ways 597 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: of doing it, and different health consequences. Yeah, booting and jacking. 598 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: So it's you know, you put in the you put 599 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: it in, then pull out so that some of the 600 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: blood comes back into your syringe and so forth. A 601 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: completely different way of also experiencing the rush of what 602 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: you're injecting, whether it's a combination of cocaine, and heroin 603 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: or just or or or just heroin, um, you know, 604 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: with multiple rushes going in and out of your veins. Yeah, 605 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: well you describe like whites almost injecting it was almost 606 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: like a perfunctory way. It's like I just got to 607 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: get this into my system to keep from not even 608 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: into the vein, just into the muscles, so so it 609 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: even takes a few minutes for it to hit right, 610 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 1: and as if I just got to do this to 611 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: keep from getting sick, and dada da da, where as 612 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: you describe the blacks were injecting like you know, doing 613 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: this you know, way deep and intravenous and spending the 614 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: time to find it. And then this kind of more 615 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: kind of sensual you know, public you know, manifest enjoyment 616 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: to the experience. I mean that seems to be a 617 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: whole another kind of cultural difference between the two groups 618 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: living just a few feet away from one another. Yeah. Absolutely, 619 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: And even the way you would do your your your 620 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,839 Speaker 1: public nod you know, this sort of the ecstatic experience 621 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: of the heroin is to be, you know, nodding and 622 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: looking like you're drooling on yourself. And and that's what 623 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: you know, sort of someone is seeking to do at 624 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 1: the height of their pleasurable moment after injecting, and that 625 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: can last for several hours, so people would would be 626 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: seeking that. What was interesting was the whites weren't admitting 627 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: to it, so they wouldn't have the initial rush that 628 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: you get when injecting directly a direct deposit of the 629 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: drug into the vein, but they would you know, going 630 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,919 Speaker 1: into the fatty tissue with the capillaries, or or into 631 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: the muscle with the you know, the muscle, then sending 632 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 1: it on, you know, to the rest of the body. 633 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: You know, it might take twenty minutes for the full 634 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: effect to come on or ten minutes or whatever. I 635 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: don't know exactly how long. But they would then be 636 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: nodding out, you know, intensely after that, and they wouldn't 637 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: admit to it. Right, So what did you make of 638 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: so many of them claiming they had been Vietnam vets, 639 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,359 Speaker 1: whereas none of them had been Vietnam vets and only 640 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: a few of them had actually been in the military, right, 641 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: You know, that was an interesting dynamic one Sometimes often 642 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: you know, suspects that, but then one never knows because 643 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: there are Vietnam vets. The one person I do want 644 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: to say, though, who was a legit VET and he 645 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,479 Speaker 1: did qualify for v A you know, whatever v A care. 646 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: You know, he was a little bit younger, and I 647 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,240 Speaker 1: don't know if it was Grenada or what US invasion, 648 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: you know, invasion of Central America he was involved in, 649 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: or Panama or whatever. But he was saved by the 650 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 1: v A and successfully saved by the VA when he 651 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: was finally able to prove his identity. And they had 652 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,439 Speaker 1: a great program that integrated him into a job at 653 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: the v A a you know, and gave him a 654 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,359 Speaker 1: whole transition period with you know, with supportive housing. So 655 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: he was the one, the one, you know, super positive outcome. 656 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: So Philipe you, you and Jeff you called the book 657 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: righteous dope fiend. I imagine you wouldn't to use the 658 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: title if they hadn't been calling themselves righteous dope fiends. 659 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: They were hoped to die with my boots on dope fiends. 660 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: Is how how they would you know, they would giggle 661 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 1: saying that in some sense, you know, righteous is also 662 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: you know, just a popular word for doing something well. 663 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: You can be a righteous cook, you know, you can 664 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: be righteously good at at anything. And so that's what 665 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: righteous dope fne means. You are totally dedicated to focusing 666 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: on your love of heroin in some sense. And it's 667 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: said without shame. It's said with you know, with with 668 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: outlaw pride in that sense um. And they would consider 669 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 1: the term junkie a slur in this setting. You know, 670 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: different words take on different meanings for different generations at 671 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: different moments in history. But you can read about, you know, 672 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: the righteous dope fing in the nineteen fifties when it 673 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: was a new you know, when it when it seemed 674 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: like a new thing to the younger generation at that time. 675 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: So let me ask you about this. I mean, you know, 676 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: as they said at the beginning, you know, this is 677 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: a photo ethnography. So there's these very compelling black and 678 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: white photos that your co author, Jeff Chamberg did. I 679 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: want to ask you about this because you know, on 680 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,359 Speaker 1: the one hand, you know, you say, you know, there's 681 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: the pictures says a thousand words, but you guys turn 682 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: it on it on its head. I mean, there's a 683 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: line where you say, letting a picture speak its thousand 684 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: words can result in a thousand deceptions. But you know, 685 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: I just remember encountering this repeatedly. Where there was a 686 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: documentary maker in Vancouver twenty years ago, Nittie Wilde, and 687 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: she did this fascinating documentary about the injecting scene in Vancouver, 688 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: and it was when the whole debate was going on 689 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: around the safe injection sites, and she was very much 690 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: an advocate of trying to get these sites set up. 691 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: But I think the footage she collected of people injecting 692 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,239 Speaker 1: was so captivating that she had a lot of it, 693 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: and I just imagined that not just myself, but many 694 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: others were kind of almost being put off by that. 695 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 1: And then I remember there was a book that came 696 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: out twenty years ago, a big, almost like one of 697 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 1: these you know, table top books anyone was called Cocaine 698 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: Blue or something, which also had all these photos of 699 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,799 Speaker 1: people at the height of the crack era. And I 700 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 1: had this sense that there was a way in which 701 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: the success at securing this really provocative photographage or photographic 702 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:37,440 Speaker 1: or documentary footage may have undermined their effort to really 703 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: create a greater level of empathy and sympathy that we 704 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: could help promote policy change. And I always felt very 705 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,800 Speaker 1: ambivalent about these projects, even as I admired their motivations. 706 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,879 Speaker 1: And I wonder when you were doing this book, how 707 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: did you deal with that? Well, we were very inefficient. 708 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 1: We took a long, long, long, long time to do it, 709 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: and then selected our pictures carefully to both tell reality 710 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: but also to minimize how they could be, you know, 711 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: hallucinated upon by a hostile reader in some sense. But 712 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: at the same time, we also wanted to show the 713 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: real suffering. And you can't sanitize something and do justice 714 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: to making recognizable the suffering and making recognizable the bad 715 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,439 Speaker 1: policy in a sense that the need for reform. It's 716 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:31,320 Speaker 1: really interesting also to see the differences in different countries 717 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 1: when you show these pictures, and and how easy and 718 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: clear it is two people in less conservative, less puritanical, 719 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: less righteous, so to speak, cultural countries. I mean, you know, 720 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: my father's French, and he would go, God, the US 721 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 1: is such a stupid country. Why does it you know, 722 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 1: why does it torture it's citizens? This is crazy. Why 723 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: not let them have their heroine. They would be completely 724 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: harmless with their heroine. And it's like so simple in 725 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,719 Speaker 1: that sense. And and that's what's so interesting about the 726 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: um you know, the Swiss, I mean the Swiss of 727 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,840 Speaker 1: all people, right, the Swiss are the ones that you know, 728 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,760 Speaker 1: we're piloting the prescription of heroin to unrepentant drug users, 729 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden they started having better full 730 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 1: I mean, this is hard to believe if full abstention outcomes, 731 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,319 Speaker 1: you know, leaving drugs completely, because once the person was 732 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: like getting all the heroine they wanted, they weren't excited 733 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: by their outlaw life anymore. There wasn't the manic up 734 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 1: and down pleasures that what for whatever you know, psychodynamic 735 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 1: reason they were pursuing. And you know, they were just 736 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,759 Speaker 1: like hanging out with a nurse who is making sure 737 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,759 Speaker 1: they didn't give themselves an abcess, and they would say, well, 738 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,400 Speaker 1: maybe I should just like learn how to go skiing, 739 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 1: and then they would get you know, free skiing lessons. 740 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: Let's take a break here and go to an ad believe, 741 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: I'll tell you. I mean, it was interesting because I 742 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,280 Speaker 1: followed the developments around the heroin maintenance clinics in Europe 743 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: very closely, and it's all true what you're saying. I mean, 744 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: obviously didn't like people take the heroine home with them, 745 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 1: but this really helped people stabilize their lives. It was 746 00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: specifically for people who had tried method on and not 747 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: succeeded on that. And interestingly, one of the biggest strows 748 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,279 Speaker 1: they dealt with was that, you know, most of these 749 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 1: folks were generally older, in their thirties or forties, if not. 750 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 1: You know, they were getting a point where they were 751 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,799 Speaker 1: tired of living life on the streets, but they were 752 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,720 Speaker 1: no longer not ready to abandon their lady love heroin. 753 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: And so here they're getting basically as much heroin as 754 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:54,920 Speaker 1: they want each day. They can go to a clinic 755 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,399 Speaker 1: up to three times a day. It's either cost either 756 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: nothing or just a few franc a day. But the 757 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,839 Speaker 1: thing they struggled with, I think the most when they 758 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 1: were in these programs was depression and the sense of 759 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,759 Speaker 1: loss of purpose in their lives. And I want to 760 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:10,800 Speaker 1: bring that back to what you know you were talking 761 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: about in the book, where you know, at one point 762 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,799 Speaker 1: you talk about you know that you know at one 763 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,320 Speaker 1: point you were Jeff is walking along and you describe 764 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,960 Speaker 1: the brisk, eager walk. Makes it clear that they're dope 765 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: feends on their way to fix and that remain reminded 766 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: me of sort of the Godfather of of drug study, 767 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 1: ethnography and Preble who wrote a book called Taking Care 768 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,920 Speaker 1: of Business, and in the book Taking Care of Business, 769 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,800 Speaker 1: and he said, because you know, I mean, basically the 770 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:36,799 Speaker 1: way I know is if I see somebody lying on 771 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,919 Speaker 1: a doorstep, they're more likely drunk. Whereas if I see 772 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: somebody walk in head bopping back and forth left and right, 773 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 1: I can tell they're on the hustle. They're looking for 774 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:46,960 Speaker 1: a place to score, they're looking for a place to 775 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,839 Speaker 1: do that, they're taking care of business. In fact, when 776 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 1: you talk about the zyla scene phenomenon that's coming up 777 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,400 Speaker 1: now and how that turns people into kind of slow 778 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,799 Speaker 1: motion versions of who they were before, you can see 779 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: that maybe that phenomen no I'm taking care of business, 780 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 1: begins to get diminished. What is all making me think 781 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: about is that one of the things you find is 782 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,719 Speaker 1: I agree with obviously a d percent that that you know, 783 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 1: that making whether it's method on or brupern orphane, or 784 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,920 Speaker 1: especially pharmaceutical heroin or now this drug hydromorphone, which is 785 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,359 Speaker 1: equivalent to heroin you know available in the US, um 786 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 1: would make a huge difference for people who are addicted. 787 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:24,759 Speaker 1: Defense and all this sort of stuff, But at the 788 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,799 Speaker 1: same time there's this element and you describe this at 789 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: this period in nearly two thousands when San Francisco begins 790 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: to adopt some more progressive policies and when the people 791 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,240 Speaker 1: are homemost have the option not just of a shelter, 792 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,240 Speaker 1: but even if having you know, a little room to themselves, 793 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:44,919 Speaker 1: and you describe some of the people who get out 794 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 1: of the drug scene and then just fall into this 795 00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 1: terrible depression and using a loan. Right. Absolutely, Yeah, that 796 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: was that was sad to see and it made too 797 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 1: much sense after it happened, and you know, is predictable 798 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,880 Speaker 1: in a sense, but the whole program was new. There 799 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,279 Speaker 1: were a bunch of cities doing it, but San Francisco 800 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,960 Speaker 1: is you know, managing to do it and claim that 801 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,239 Speaker 1: it was doing better than everyone else even when it isn't. 802 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: So that was, you know, an interesting program, a housing 803 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,000 Speaker 1: first program, that's a classic harm reduction program. Don't don't 804 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 1: judge the person, get them housed before you you know, 805 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 1: do any kind of you know whatever attempt to reduce 806 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,560 Speaker 1: the risk taking. And and that was really interesting to 807 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,359 Speaker 1: see when it worked and what some of the contradictions 808 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,879 Speaker 1: to it were. And it did it did work? Um, 809 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,880 Speaker 1: you know, for more people than it didn't work. You know, 810 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:44,680 Speaker 1: injecting heroin alone is extraordinarily dangerous. It's such an easy 811 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 1: drug to overdose on, and it's such an easy drug 812 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,359 Speaker 1: to revive someone on when you're next to them, you know, 813 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,120 Speaker 1: you you mean, most of the time, Um, you know, 814 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: you can just shake the person and and wake them up. 815 00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:59,239 Speaker 1: But you know, obviously no one can shake you when 816 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:03,080 Speaker 1: you knock over, so that that is a tragic you know, 817 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,840 Speaker 1: I felt connected to what you were, I mean the 818 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,239 Speaker 1: senior describing because you know back you described, you know, 819 00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:11,799 Speaker 1: the harm reduction programs and needle exchange programs that even 820 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,440 Speaker 1: though they're problematic in some ways and sort of trying 821 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 1: to put in a kind of public health model that 822 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:18,880 Speaker 1: doesn't always make sense to the real lives to be 823 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: on the streets, they're nonetheless the most valuable thing going on. 824 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,400 Speaker 1: And that was the period where I had persuaded George 825 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 1: Sorrows to become the number one private funder of needle 826 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 1: exchange in the world, and we were funding those programs 827 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 1: and in the areas you were looking at. And then 828 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,200 Speaker 1: you describe the ballot initiative PROP thirty six and two thousand, 829 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,719 Speaker 1: which I am, my colleagues drafted, put together, raised the 830 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,600 Speaker 1: money for and one with you know, overwhelmingly in two 831 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,480 Speaker 1: thousand and that was the first major alternatives to incarceration 832 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,520 Speaker 1: ballot initiative to pass in the US all basically since 833 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:51,160 Speaker 1: the repeal of alcohol prohibition, and it doubled state funding 834 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,560 Speaker 1: for drug treatment at that time. Right, and even though 835 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,600 Speaker 1: it's still had elements of coercion in it, the initiative 836 00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:01,200 Speaker 1: was actively opposed by the drug court judges because we 837 00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,360 Speaker 1: took away a lot of their more coercive tools. And 838 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,680 Speaker 1: so you described this moment there where in fact you 839 00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,359 Speaker 1: know that that there is this sort of beginning of 840 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:15,560 Speaker 1: more services coming in, but it can help only so much. 841 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:18,799 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the sense I got. It's like, you know, 842 00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 1: it's good that those services are out there, but for 843 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,359 Speaker 1: a lot of the people you were getting to know 844 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,680 Speaker 1: living home in in those encampments, you know, they weren't 845 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,880 Speaker 1: really gonna take advantage of it for any extended period 846 00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,399 Speaker 1: of time. Their whole life they had been abused, Right, 847 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:37,840 Speaker 1: every previous interaction ever in their life with any figure 848 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:43,160 Speaker 1: of authority had always been an abusive relationship, A relationship 849 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,480 Speaker 1: of being you know, balled out, beaten up, you know, 850 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: in put in jail, rebuked, you know, for being a 851 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,080 Speaker 1: good for nothing and so forth. So you know, when 852 00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,680 Speaker 1: all of a sudden these sort of new piloted you know, 853 00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:00,280 Speaker 1: wonderful harm reduction services were being offered, they couldn't really 854 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,680 Speaker 1: believe it, right, They didn't even know how to absorb 855 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,000 Speaker 1: it or trust it. And the whites were the first 856 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:11,239 Speaker 1: people that the system recognized as quote deserving it, you know, 857 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,200 Speaker 1: and reached out to them, and they literally were the 858 00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,560 Speaker 1: first ones to get housed and and you know, it 859 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,280 Speaker 1: was like totally racialized in that sense. Although you described 860 00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,040 Speaker 1: the whites being piste off because they felt that the 861 00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:27,680 Speaker 1: blacks were getting favoritism, it's which wasn't really true. That's 862 00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,200 Speaker 1: what everyone I mean, that's the American story, right, that's 863 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:34,280 Speaker 1: the American dream. Everyone piste off and everyone else. Yeah. 864 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,920 Speaker 1: I think the most heartbreaking moment in the book, Philip was, 865 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,160 Speaker 1: you know, you're pointing out how almost none of the 866 00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:45,520 Speaker 1: white folks have any relationship with their children anymore, whereas 867 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:49,279 Speaker 1: that with the black folks, they're more likely to have 868 00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,880 Speaker 1: some relationship there and the more likely and extended family 869 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 1: that's caring about them and will invite them back in. 870 00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:58,799 Speaker 1: But there's this moment where you were, Jeff um go 871 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,319 Speaker 1: and one of one of the black characters in the book, 872 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,480 Speaker 1: you know, his son shows up and he's so happy 873 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,000 Speaker 1: to see his dad, wants to meet the family. They 874 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:11,240 Speaker 1: arranged to meet in a few hours, and the hours 875 00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,680 Speaker 1: go by, and you know, I can't remember which character was, 876 00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,880 Speaker 1: but he's so happy, he's so happy, so happy, and 877 00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:19,799 Speaker 1: you know they're going to take the bus and then 878 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,160 Speaker 1: just you know, lands up taking the bus fare to 879 00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:27,080 Speaker 1: buy some crack. And somehow the time goes by and 880 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,400 Speaker 1: they show up very late and the kids not there, 881 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,680 Speaker 1: and I just, I mean, I guess it was something, 882 00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,080 Speaker 1: because part of what you're writing about in this thing 883 00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:40,440 Speaker 1: is that there's something, you know, whether it's the drug itself, 884 00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,879 Speaker 1: or the or the or the community they're living in 885 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,600 Speaker 1: that somehow breaks something off in times. It just, um, 886 00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,600 Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess I just found it heartbreaking. 887 00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,920 Speaker 1: That piece of it. Yeah, that was heartbreaking. Jeff actually 888 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:59,080 Speaker 1: went to find his funeral and the family asked him 889 00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,600 Speaker 1: to be the official photographer at the funeral, and and 890 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,760 Speaker 1: they also asked for copies of of his photograph and 891 00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:10,279 Speaker 1: and his son and daughters. Um Carter was was the 892 00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,200 Speaker 1: name we gave him. They had grown up without their father, 893 00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:17,960 Speaker 1: and so the photographs were are now their memory, and 894 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,839 Speaker 1: they compare what they look like compared to their father, 895 00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,440 Speaker 1: how their beard compares to how their father's beard looks, 896 00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:26,799 Speaker 1: you know, in the casket. So it was a very 897 00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:32,120 Speaker 1: moving dynamic um And and it was sad. It's heartbreaking. 898 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,160 Speaker 1: I mean, their lives were harping. Every single one, you know, 899 00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:39,040 Speaker 1: except for one person had died or two people had 900 00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:42,080 Speaker 1: died by the time the book was published, not even 901 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,040 Speaker 1: ten years after. By the time the book was published, 902 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,960 Speaker 1: their mortality rate is so high. So you know, so 903 00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,560 Speaker 1: outlaws suffer. You know, they get punished, they get killed 904 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:53,960 Speaker 1: by their bodies. You know. It's curious by the way. 905 00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,480 Speaker 1: I mean, here you and Jeff are spending so much time. 906 00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,640 Speaker 1: You're sharing meals. Jeff is sometimes even I think sleeping 907 00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:02,400 Speaker 1: over there. You know, you get other families. Did you 908 00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,680 Speaker 1: ever share drugs with them? Did they ever press you two? 909 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,279 Speaker 1: Did you ever offer I mean whether it was just 910 00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,839 Speaker 1: weed or whether it was cocaine or heroine. I mean, 911 00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,400 Speaker 1: how did you handle it? You know? No, the I 912 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:15,560 Speaker 1: mean I slept out there, you know a few times. 913 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,439 Speaker 1: But like I say, for every you know whatever, half 914 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,480 Speaker 1: a dozen times I slept out there. Jeff probably slept 915 00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,160 Speaker 1: out there, you know, five or six or seven or 916 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:28,160 Speaker 1: ten more times. I remember, there was really cute. Tina 917 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 1: went back out hustling so she could hustle up for 918 00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:38,239 Speaker 1: Jeff's fix, which she had identified as coffee and so 919 00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,279 Speaker 1: and it was called the wake up you know, you know, 920 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,680 Speaker 1: his his wake up, his wake up fix. He's gonna 921 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,279 Speaker 1: need seventy five cents for his wake up fix. And 922 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,080 Speaker 1: they realized they were penniless, so she went back out 923 00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,560 Speaker 1: and hanhandled it for Jeff because he had spent all 924 00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:57,040 Speaker 1: his money, you know, buying buying food for them that day, 925 00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,320 Speaker 1: so they would accept us for the nerds that we were. 926 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:04,720 Speaker 1: I did drink beer. Um. I tried once or twice 927 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,480 Speaker 1: to drink um fortified wine. I literally threw up the 928 00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,200 Speaker 1: first time I did, and and have never touched it 929 00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,440 Speaker 1: since then. That stuff is, I mean, it tastes like 930 00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,920 Speaker 1: cough syrup. Cisco berry is the nastiest thing. I mean, 931 00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:21,279 Speaker 1: it's it's mostly sugar and syrup, I guess um and 932 00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,840 Speaker 1: a bunch of alcohol. But each bottle is the equivalent 933 00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,160 Speaker 1: of five shots of vodka? Is that what I read? Yeah, 934 00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:29,000 Speaker 1: It's unbelievable, isn't it. Marijuana never shows up in the 935 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,640 Speaker 1: book more or less, I barely. I think that it's 936 00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:34,440 Speaker 1: barely ever mentioned. No. Yeah, and the marijuana is completely 937 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,279 Speaker 1: irrelevant to them. Yeah, And how do you explain that, 938 00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,040 Speaker 1: especially when you read now that the ways in which 939 00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:44,160 Speaker 1: cannabis can enhance the feeling of an opioid um and 940 00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,960 Speaker 1: so often cannabis goes well with many drugs. Why in 941 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:52,759 Speaker 1: your that world right there is basically marijuana essentially absent. Well, 942 00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:55,239 Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't available in the same way that 943 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,040 Speaker 1: it's available now in a tight traded amount that you 944 00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:00,279 Speaker 1: can buy in the store in California where you know, 945 00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,720 Speaker 1: you know, even what mixture of whatever those things aren't 946 00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,879 Speaker 1: canne Philip, So what I mean, marijuana was still omnipresent 947 00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,080 Speaker 1: throughout this period, and they were already accessing heroin, cooka 948 00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,879 Speaker 1: and everything else. Why do you think marijuana wasn't part 949 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:15,719 Speaker 1: of that scene at all? I mean, it just it 950 00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,799 Speaker 1: just seems odd to me, now that you say it 951 00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:20,680 Speaker 1: like that, it seems odd to me. I didn't. It 952 00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:25,520 Speaker 1: didn't even occur to me why they would possibly. It 953 00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:27,799 Speaker 1: seemed obvious to me that they wouldn't want it in 954 00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,440 Speaker 1: that sense, Whenever they had an extra penny, they would 955 00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,759 Speaker 1: invest it, you know, despite what the white said. They 956 00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,520 Speaker 1: often would too. They would invest it in crack. So 957 00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,960 Speaker 1: that was where their discretionary income is. And when you 958 00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:46,239 Speaker 1: compare the psychoactive effects to crack and marijuana, it's not 959 00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:50,440 Speaker 1: like the marijuana becomes even vaguely noticeable in the face 960 00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:53,320 Speaker 1: of crack. So last question about this book here. You 961 00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:55,560 Speaker 1: wrote this a number of years ago, and you know, 962 00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:57,480 Speaker 1: you say in the book that you know, the language 963 00:54:57,520 --> 00:54:59,680 Speaker 1: that people use, I mean, the folks you were studying, 964 00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,000 Speaker 1: you know, it was it was racist, it was crass, 965 00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:07,360 Speaker 1: it was misogynistic. I mean, you know, filthy, terrible language. 966 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,440 Speaker 1: But in the book, right, so you say you temperate somewhat. 967 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,840 Speaker 1: But like when people are consistently using white people using 968 00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:16,560 Speaker 1: the N word, you spell it out in the book. Yeah, 969 00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:19,760 Speaker 1: I wouldn't do that anymore. No, you don't do that anymore. 970 00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:22,560 Speaker 1: And I'm just curious, do you think that the fact 971 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,640 Speaker 1: that that the book does spell it out all the time, 972 00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,160 Speaker 1: is that make it less likely that the book might 973 00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,080 Speaker 1: ever be assigned in university courses. Now, you know, I 974 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,840 Speaker 1: think you could even suggest it to the UH, to 975 00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:37,879 Speaker 1: the publisher that in the next printing they do it 976 00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:40,799 Speaker 1: with a dash, and so forth. The way, the way 977 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,040 Speaker 1: that the convention has changed. Now. The thing is, I 978 00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:49,080 Speaker 1: wanted to use real language. I didn't want to tell 979 00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:53,920 Speaker 1: a lie. I wanted in your face racism to be visible. 980 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:57,160 Speaker 1: I didn't want to soft pedal the racism of whites 981 00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,440 Speaker 1: against blacks and the few Latin X character is against 982 00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,200 Speaker 1: blacks as well. That's what we felt at the time, 983 00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,880 Speaker 1: is we wanted to rub it in the face of America, 984 00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,800 Speaker 1: to face the fact that they might have politically correct 985 00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:14,000 Speaker 1: language in their you know, upper class homes or or workplaces, 986 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,000 Speaker 1: but that's not the way that you know that that 987 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,120 Speaker 1: that people on the street speak, and and they aren't 988 00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,200 Speaker 1: ashamed of how they speak. Do you think anything's lost? 989 00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:25,880 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously everybody knows what the end dash. You 990 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,040 Speaker 1: know what it means. If you don't spell it out 991 00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:30,879 Speaker 1: now it isn't It's an awfully ugly word. I think 992 00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,080 Speaker 1: it's too painful when I see it in my I 993 00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:35,759 Speaker 1: can see it in my students it just distracts them. 994 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to waste time distracting them. I want 995 00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,120 Speaker 1: them to see the important thing. And I don't want 996 00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:45,080 Speaker 1: to have side debates that don't have steaks, because we 997 00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:47,640 Speaker 1: we have so many problems that we can deal with 998 00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:50,320 Speaker 1: and that you know, there are ways to reform in 999 00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,640 Speaker 1: the United States, and so you know, if we get 1000 00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:57,000 Speaker 1: two side tracked, it just isn't worth it. So listen, 1001 00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,480 Speaker 1: you're in l A now for a number of years, 1002 00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,879 Speaker 1: So are you on the streets again? Are you doing 1003 00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:08,400 Speaker 1: something in jail? Actually? Mostly, I mean that's all right, 1004 00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:12,520 Speaker 1: that's where all the public resources go. I shouldn't be there. 1005 00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:15,320 Speaker 1: And what exactly are you doing in jail these days? 1006 00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:20,360 Speaker 1: It's it's pretty intense. It's the mental health wards of 1007 00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:24,160 Speaker 1: the l A County jail. It's the great tragedy of 1008 00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:27,200 Speaker 1: the United States where we closed down our hospitals and 1009 00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:31,040 Speaker 1: then the people that do need help are now instead 1010 00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:34,240 Speaker 1: of getting help, they're being punished in jail. So we 1011 00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:39,560 Speaker 1: we did stumble on a super interesting peer support program 1012 00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:42,680 Speaker 1: that even seems to be operating in the heart of 1013 00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,000 Speaker 1: the Beast in a very positive way. And we found, 1014 00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, a progressive sheriff who's open to expanding that program. 1015 00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,960 Speaker 1: So we're just working very much with bare knuckles to 1016 00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:58,600 Speaker 1: expand a tiny space, you know, of humanity and help 1017 00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:02,479 Speaker 1: in in a setting that is, you know, obviously where 1018 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,720 Speaker 1: no one with psychosis should ever set foot. On any 1019 00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:09,280 Speaker 1: given day, there's between three and five thousand people. Um, 1020 00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,040 Speaker 1: you know, many of them you know, thinking that you're 1021 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,600 Speaker 1: you know, a devil or the or a snake who's 1022 00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:17,080 Speaker 1: trying to eat them or a vampire trying to bite them, 1023 00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:20,400 Speaker 1: don't have any understanding of why they're being punished, and 1024 00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:23,000 Speaker 1: are most of them people of histories of of drug 1025 00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:26,280 Speaker 1: problems as well. So it's both the drug of choice 1026 00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:28,520 Speaker 1: on the streets of l A is meth amphetamine, and 1027 00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:32,560 Speaker 1: methamphetamine is the thing that you know most fast throws 1028 00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:36,160 Speaker 1: you into psychosis when you have that tendency and when 1029 00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,480 Speaker 1: you use a lot of it over and over especially, 1030 00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,520 Speaker 1: and you know it can also trigger in someone long 1031 00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:46,400 Speaker 1: term psychosis. So it smoked, um, you know, it's it's 1032 00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:50,760 Speaker 1: that extraordinarily pure crystal meth that comes up from Tijuana 1033 00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,320 Speaker 1: and it keeps you up for two three days, so 1034 00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:55,960 Speaker 1: it's really really strong and it doesn't take a lot 1035 00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:59,480 Speaker 1: of organization to get it. You know, injecting heroin every 1036 00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,800 Speaker 1: single day or or or going into heroin withdrawal takes 1037 00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:04,960 Speaker 1: a lot of organization. It takes a lot of hard work. 1038 00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:10,920 Speaker 1: That isn't something something someone with psychosis can do, usually 1039 00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:13,800 Speaker 1: on a regular basis, enough to even develop a habit 1040 00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:17,120 Speaker 1: in that sense. And you're saying it's overwhelmingly smoking now, 1041 00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:19,880 Speaker 1: so very little injecting so far. Yeah, there there are 1042 00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,520 Speaker 1: some scenes of injection, and especially in Tijuana where you 1043 00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:26,600 Speaker 1: know that is the epicenter, you know, among the deported 1044 00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:29,840 Speaker 1: gang members who are both selling it and and using 1045 00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,280 Speaker 1: it and trapped at the border wall. But you know, 1046 00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:36,120 Speaker 1: it's just more rational to smoke it. It. It has 1047 00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:39,680 Speaker 1: the same strong effect and is much easier, and you 1048 00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:42,680 Speaker 1: don't have to poke yourself twenty times, and and you 1049 00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,080 Speaker 1: don't have to miss, and it burns like hell when 1050 00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,240 Speaker 1: you miss, and so forth. So it's just rational to 1051 00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:50,440 Speaker 1: smoke it. And that's it's sort of the same way 1052 00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:54,880 Speaker 1: crack is rational with respect to cocaine in that same way. Um, 1053 00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:58,720 Speaker 1: you know, smoking it is so much easier than injecting it, 1054 00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,320 Speaker 1: and and and with okay, now, it doesn't even reach 1055 01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:03,960 Speaker 1: your brain it won't even reach your The pleasure of 1056 01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:06,080 Speaker 1: effects don't even reach your brain if you don't get 1057 01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:08,640 Speaker 1: in a direct deposit so it can you You can 1058 01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,960 Speaker 1: waste your money completely. And is there's something different about 1059 01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:14,720 Speaker 1: the meth today as opposed to the meth ten years ago. 1060 01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:18,000 Speaker 1: You know, I just get this from the secondary you know, 1061 01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:21,880 Speaker 1: the reports cartels are you know, are you know specifically 1062 01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:25,080 Speaker 1: sought out experts to make the best quality they could 1063 01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:27,760 Speaker 1: get that smokes the easier. You know, they want to 1064 01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:31,600 Speaker 1: open up their market with a product that outcompetes everything else. 1065 01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:36,120 Speaker 1: You know, it's more consistently good than it ever was. Probably, 1066 01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,240 Speaker 1: is what I would say in that sense. Yeah, but 1067 01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:41,320 Speaker 1: not qualitatively different. There's the meth of ten years ago 1068 01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:43,960 Speaker 1: compared to the method today. You would not compare it 1069 01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,600 Speaker 1: to heroin um to FENITYL. It's not that big a 1070 01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:51,640 Speaker 1: difference between what was there before what is there now. Yeah, 1071 01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,880 Speaker 1: I agree with you. Yeah, yeah, no, Well listen, Philipe, 1072 01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:57,760 Speaker 1: I mean, this is fantastic continuing this conversation with you, 1073 01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:00,400 Speaker 1: and I so much admire the work you're doing. So 1074 01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:01,960 Speaker 1: let me just say thanks for doing this with me, 1075 01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:04,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for having this conversation. Best of luck with the 1076 01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:07,040 Speaker 1: work in Los Angeles as well as in Tiahuata, and 1077 01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:09,640 Speaker 1: I really look forward to, uh, you know, your next 1078 01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:12,040 Speaker 1: writings in your next book about all of this. So 1079 01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:14,600 Speaker 1: thanks so much, great, thank you, and I look forward 1080 01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:23,640 Speaker 1: to listening to your podcast. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please 1081 01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:25,920 Speaker 1: tell your friends about it, or you can write us 1082 01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,160 Speaker 1: a review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 1083 01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:31,920 Speaker 1: We love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like 1084 01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:34,920 Speaker 1: to share your own stories, comes and ideas, then leave 1085 01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:38,920 Speaker 1: us a message at one eight three three seven seven 1086 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:44,960 Speaker 1: nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or you 1087 01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:48,600 Speaker 1: can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com, or 1088 01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:51,560 Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Man. You can 1089 01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:55,800 Speaker 1: also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is 1090 01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,320 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's 1091 01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:03,520 Speaker 1: hosted by Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by Noam Osband and 1092 01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:07,840 Speaker 1: Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, 1093 01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:12,280 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Geeseis and Darren Aronotsky from Protozoma Pictures, Alex Williams 1094 01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:15,480 Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio and me Ethan Nadelman. 1095 01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:19,720 Speaker 1: Our music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks 1096 01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:23,560 Speaker 1: to a Brio s F Bianca Grimshaw and Robert BP. 1097 01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:38,439 Speaker 1: Next week we'll be doing something totally different, heading out 1098 01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:40,960 Speaker 1: of my apartment up to East Tarlem to do an 1099 01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:45,800 Speaker 1: episode from the country's first overdose prevention center, also known 1100 01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:50,240 Speaker 1: as a safe injection site. It's a shame that it's 1101 01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:52,840 Speaker 1: still controversial to open these sites in America, I mean 1102 01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:54,840 Speaker 1: in some ways in terms of harm reduction and what 1103 01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:57,000 Speaker 1: we could be doing over those prevention sites or safe 1104 01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:59,680 Speaker 1: consumption rooms or old news right, because they've been up 1105 01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:01,200 Speaker 1: and thing, if you know, all over the world, as 1106 01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,360 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier. But as an organization, with our Washington 1107 01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:08,400 Speaker 1: heightsite and our East Harlem site, we've been tiptoeing up 1108 01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:11,080 Speaker 1: to this and preparing for this in a variety of 1109 01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:15,560 Speaker 1: ways for years. Subscribe to Cycleactive now see it, don't 1110 01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:15,880 Speaker 1: miss it.