1 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: From Futuro Media. It's Latin USA. I'm Maria ino Josa. 2 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: Our most recent episode was co reported with Documented, a 3 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: nonprofit news site that covers immigrants in New York City, 4 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: from tenants' rights to healthcare to ice arrests. They brought 5 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: us the story of Wendy and Elvis, a Central American 6 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: couple navigating a complicated and punishing asylum system shaped by 7 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: policies put into place by the Trump administration. And Wendy 8 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: and Elvis's story is just one that reporters and journalists 9 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: from Documented have reported on. In twenty nineteen, Documented sent 10 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: six journalists into the courts to observe the human impact 11 00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: of restrictive immigration policies. For three full months, they sat 12 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: in New York City's immigration courts from the time they 13 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: opened until they closed, five days a week, observing hundreds 14 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: of hearings. Today, the two co founders of Documented, Max Siegelbaum, 15 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: and Mazin Sidahman, are here to talk with us more 16 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: about that project and what their work has revealed. Max 17 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: and Mazen, welcome to let you USA. 18 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 2: Thank you, It's nice to be here. 19 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 3: Hi. Thanks for having us. 20 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: All right, So tell me how you get started? With 21 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: this idea to basically observe every single minute of the 22 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: immigration court system. So people would say that they would 23 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: never let you in, but you guys actually did it. 24 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: So what was your aim and why did you do it? 25 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 4: Max? 26 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: So, we had been covering immigration courts since we started publishing, 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: which was in the summer of twenty eighteen, and we 28 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 2: had watched since Jeff Sessions was Attorney General back then, 29 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 2: and we had watched him issue policy decision after policy 30 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 2: decision that had a serious detrimental impact to the people 31 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 2: who were passing through the court system. And we knew 32 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 2: this through data, and we knew it anecdotally, you know, 33 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 2: we just knew it was generally harder to ask for 34 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 2: asylum and just be in the court system. So what 35 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 2: we didn't know is what it looked like. And immigration 36 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 2: court is very different from federal or state courts. You know, 37 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 2: it's very closed off. There are no court records accessible 38 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: to the public. Even court hearings are hard to get into, 39 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 2: so there's no real way of sort of opening up 40 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 2: the hood and looking inside. So we knew what happened 41 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: at a statistical level, but what we didn't know is 42 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 2: what it looked like. And what it felt like and 43 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 2: what it was just like to be a person passing 44 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: through this system. 45 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you can take us back to that 46 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: first week and that first day. Was there something that 47 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: surprised you that first day Mazin, Well, it was funny. 48 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 3: Actually the first day, the immigration courts were closed because 49 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 3: of a snowstorm, so that we showed up and there 50 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 3: were dozens of people waiting outside with no idea why 51 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 3: the courts have been closed or what this meant for 52 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 3: their hearings. People, some people you know, travel from Long 53 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 3: Island and all over the state to come to these hearings, 54 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 3: to be there at eight am, you know, sometimes waking 55 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 3: up at four in the morning, only to arrive and 56 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 3: find out that their hearing that they've been waiting for 57 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 3: for years has been rescheduled. So that was a very 58 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 3: good indication, I guess, of the kind of chaos that 59 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 3: the reporters were. But we're going to see over the 60 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 3: coming weeks. 61 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: So this is a pretty massive process, right and there are, 62 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: in fact hearings, the hundreds of hearings a day. So 63 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: what were the specific things that you're reporters we're looking 64 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: for or tracking? 65 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 3: So we were tracking a number of different things. For 66 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 3: each hearing, the court reporters collected the basic information, you know, 67 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 3: the name, data birth, the judge's name, the immigration attorney's name, 68 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 3: the ice attorney's name, but then there were other factors 69 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 3: like did they even have an attorney? You know, we 70 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 3: witnessed a number of immigrants who were unrepresented in their hearings, 71 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 3: and we know that that can have huge ramifications for 72 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 3: their cases. For detained hearings, we also wanted to monitor 73 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 3: what it was like for immigrants who were being videoteller 74 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 3: conferenced in. One of the things that the Trump administrations 75 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 3: that used a lot more than previous administrations is video 76 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 3: teller conferencing of immigrants who were in jail, and that 77 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: technology causes a number of issues, and there's been a 78 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 3: lot of malfunctions that often lead to immigrants spending longer 79 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 3: in attention. And then we marked a number of the 80 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 3: major decisions that Attorney General Dreft Sessions had made during 81 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 3: that time, making it so that people who are victims 82 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 3: of gang violence and domestic violence could no longer use 83 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 3: that as the grounds for asylum, you know, changing the 84 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 3: ways in which judges could manage their courtrooms, preventing them 85 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 3: from delaying hearings or terminating hearings or closing hearings that 86 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 3: they thought were going on unnecessarily. So we tried to 87 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 3: track all of those different things and see how they 88 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 3: were coming together. 89 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: Talk to us about how you figured out the issue 90 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: of access. And I'm wondering were their challenges from court 91 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: officials when they saw that you were in their court room? 92 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: Max, Yes, So if the person whose case it is 93 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: says you're allowed to be in there, then it's okay. 94 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 2: But from the beginning they faced just an immense amount 95 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: of pushback from everyone, from immigration judges, the ICE attorneys. 96 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 2: People would do things like the ICE attorneys would say 97 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: to the immigrants, are you really sure you want all 98 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: the details of your case broadcast on the internet, and 99 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: just sort of hammer at that point over and over 100 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 2: and over until the person was just like, no, actually, 101 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 2: I don't want you in here. Sometimes some of our 102 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 2: reporters would get singled out by ICE attorneys, by specific ones. 103 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 2: You know, there was one who would follow our reporters 104 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: out into the hallway and sort of like accost them 105 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 2: outside of the courtroom. But all of our reporters were 106 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 2: extremely tough, and they just kept going back. 107 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: So all of this work, all of this reporting, all 108 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: of these collection of data and stories, it's a lot 109 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: to sum up. But what would you say are some 110 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: of the main takeaways that you had when you ended 111 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: the project. 112 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I would just say the New York Court historically 113 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 3: was a lot friendlier. You know, the immigration court system 114 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 3: as a whole, maybe not, but the York Court in particular, 115 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 3: the judges that work there, the system in place. You know, 116 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 3: New York is one of the only cities in the 117 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 3: country that has a public defender system for immigrants. This 118 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 3: is unprecedented pretty much all around the country. But that 119 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,559 Speaker 3: system and so many other systems that were in place 120 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 3: in New York to make them more equitable and more 121 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 3: similar I guess to the kind of due process rights 122 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 3: that you might get in a criminal court, were just 123 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 3: peace by peace dismantled over the course of three years, 124 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 3: and it was pretty stunning to see that play out 125 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 3: and the impact that that had on a number of 126 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 3: immigrants cases and lives. 127 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: And this didn't just happen overnight, you know, it was 128 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: a very concerted effort on the behalf of the Department 129 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 2: of Justice to make all of these little incremental changes 130 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 2: in policy and legal decisions that have a mounted to this. 131 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: And now with COVID nineteen and this pandemic and New 132 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: York being the epicenter, the immigration system and the asylum 133 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: system in many ways has just ground to a complete 134 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: and total halt. The Department of Justice has halted all 135 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: hearings for non detained immigrants. They continue to have hearings 136 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: for those who are currently detained. So can you tell 137 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: us what about those hearings and are courts able to 138 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: make this happen with concerns about COVID nineteen spreading. 139 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really fascinating time what's happening right now 140 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 3: in the immigration course because this unprecedented alliance has formed 141 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 3: between three groups that rarely work together on anything. So 142 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 3: immigration judges, immigration lawyers, and prosecutors who work for ICE 143 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 3: have all come together in this unified front to call 144 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 3: on the Justice Department, which oversees the immigration courts, to 145 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 3: shut them down during the pandemic. And they've all come 146 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 3: together because, quite frankly, they're scared for their lives. I 147 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 3: don't think there's ever been a moment where they've worked 148 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 3: as closely. Despite this, the DOJ has insisted on keeping 149 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 3: immigration court hearings, as you said, going for immigrants who 150 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 3: are in detention. You know that even includes children who 151 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 3: are in shelters as well. They also have to appear 152 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 3: for their immigration court hearings. You know, I spoke to 153 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 3: an attorney who said that she represents children. She went 154 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 3: into twenty six Federal Plaza during the pandemic with a 155 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 3: group of children who had their hearing that day, and 156 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 3: the court staffers were literally spraying chlorocs into the air 157 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 3: in some sort of way to try and disinfect the environment. 158 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 3: You know, there is not really adequate protections or safety 159 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 3: is put in place for the staff that have worked there, 160 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 3: and a number of court staffers have contracted COVID nineteen. 161 00:09:55,800 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 3: You know, there've been court closures because court staffers have 162 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,839 Speaker 3: tested positive for the virus. The DOJ has now taken 163 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 3: up the policy of tweeting out at eleven pm the 164 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,719 Speaker 3: night before to let people know that the court will 165 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 3: be closed because somebody is tested positive, and then reopening 166 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 3: it a few days later with very little explanation. So 167 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 3: the CDC guidelines that a lot of people have been 168 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 3: calling for don't seem to be implemented at the immigration courts. 169 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: Well, Max and Masin, thank you so much for your 170 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: work and for joining me on at the New USA. 171 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 2: Thank you, yeah, thank you. 172 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: Max Siegelbaum and Mazin Sidahmed are the co founders of Documented, 173 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: a nonprofit news site that can be found at Documented 174 00:10:49,840 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: and why dot com. That's it for today. Latino USA 175 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: is produced by Miel Massias, Antonia Selejidomocao, Alissa Escrce, and 176 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 1: Alejandra Sarressad, with help this week from Raoul Berees. We're 177 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: edited by Sophia Palisaka and Luis Trees. Our engineers are 178 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: Stephanie Lebou and Julia Caruso. Additional engineering this week by 179 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: Lea Shaw. Our director of programming and Operations is Natalia 180 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: fidel Hutz. Our digital editor is Amandel Cantra. Our intern 181 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: is Julia Rocha. Our theme music was composed by Zenia Robinos. 182 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: If you like the music you heard on this episode, 183 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: stop by Latinousa dot org and check out our weekly 184 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: Spotify playlist. I'm your host and executive producer Maria jo Josa. 185 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: Join us again on our next episode, and in the 186 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: meantime you can find us on all of your social media. 187 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: Castella Proxima Chao. 188 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 4: Latino USA is made possible in part by New York 189 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 4: Women's Foundation. The New York Women's Foundation, funding women leaders 190 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 4: that build solutions in their communities, and celebrating thirty years 191 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 4: of radical generosity, the Ford Foundation, working with visionaries on 192 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,719 Speaker 4: the front lines of social change worldwide, and the John D. 193 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 4: And Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation.