1 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: There has been a break in the unsolved murder of 2 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: Pauline Pusser, wife of legendary Sheriff BUVERG. 3 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 2: Pusser from the Walk in Tall Fame. It was August twelfth, 4 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven. Sheriff YOUEVERG. 5 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: Pusser and his wife Pauline were ambushed twice on a 6 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:32,319 Speaker 1: rural road in. 7 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 2: McNairy County, Tennessee. 8 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: According to the sheriff, he was ambushed twice as he 9 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: passed New Hope Methodist Church just before the Tennessee Mississippi line. 10 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 2: Pauline was killed in the incident. 11 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: Sheriff Pusser received one injury. Tonight we have Mike Elam 12 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: y'all know him. He's the author of Bewford Pusser, the 13 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: other story. He's been with us, and tonight we are 14 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: going to really talk about some evidence that some of 15 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: you may have heard, most of you have not. We 16 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: also have Jason White, another Zone seven alum. Y'all know 17 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: him from the first forty eight out of Oklahoma and 18 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: his podcast. And then we have Dennis Hathcock. Now Dennis 19 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: has never been with us before, but I have been 20 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,479 Speaker 1: able to walk the scene not only with Mike but 21 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: also with Dennis. Dennis was a witness to some of 22 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: the activity before the ambush and after then we have 23 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: Danny Couples. Y'all know, Danny emt from that county, from 24 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,559 Speaker 1: the surrounding area, and he has got some information even 25 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: about a family member, and ironically he found out that 26 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: he was related to Dennis. So I want to welcome 27 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: Mike and Danny and Dennis and Jason to Zone seven. Gentlemen, 28 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. 29 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 3: Welcome, Thank you very much. 30 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 4: I'm glad to be here. 31 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 3: Mike. 32 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to start with you, and I just have 33 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: to say this is a historic result, and congratulations to 34 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: you because I don't think we would all be talking 35 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: if it had not been for your research, your hard work, 36 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: your book, and your willingness to listen to somebody that 37 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: came forward and gave you some information. So congratulations Mike. 38 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,239 Speaker 4: Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. But for me, 39 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 4: it's just about justice for Pauline. 40 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 2: Amen, and Jason. 41 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: I want to ask you something now, longtime homicide detective, 42 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: one of the best in the country. You know, when 43 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: you're putting a case together from nineteen sixty seven, what 44 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: would you imagine you would have in that case file 45 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: and what would you just dream about trying to get 46 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: your hands on. 47 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,399 Speaker 5: Well, thank you first of all for letting me join 48 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 5: you guys on Zone seven, and I appreciate the high 49 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 5: praise RYL. That means a lot. And so when you're 50 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 5: looking at a case from nineteen sixty seven, one would 51 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 5: hope that you're going to have a lot of evidence. 52 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 5: But in reality, I think that crime scenes were not 53 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 5: worked as they are today, and so my hope would 54 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 5: be that we have at least, at a minimum, some 55 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 5: swabbing of the of the blood stains that were at 56 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 5: the scene, even though back then they could only really 57 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 5: tell you about blood type. They couldn't really they couldn't 58 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 5: give you a DNA back then, but just blood type. 59 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 5: That would be great if that existed, because then you 60 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 5: could compare that to the blood spatter that is either 61 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 5: in the car or on the extrarior of the car, 62 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 5: which is going to tell a big part of this story. 63 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 5: And you know, I'm hopeful that there's a lot more 64 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 5: evidence that I'm hopeful that there's going to be a 65 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 5: lot of evidence at least for them to be able 66 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 5: to come up to the conclusion that they're coming up 67 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 5: with right now. Uh, And so that's really, that's really 68 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 5: what I'm hopeful for that And I don't see them 69 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 5: making a decision like they did without having some substantial 70 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 5: stuff to work with. 71 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 2: Oh I don't either. 72 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: But you know, in a case like this, you hope 73 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: the reports are there, you hope the photographs are in 74 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: good shape, and you pray that there's a witness or 75 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: two still living. And in this case, we have one 76 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: with Dennis Hathcock. Dennis, how are you. 77 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 3: I'm fine, Cheryl, how are you? 78 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 2: I'm wonderful. 79 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: I'll tell you that afternoon that I got to spend 80 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: with you and Danny and Mike was unbelievable. I mean, 81 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: it was a career highlight for me. The eight year 82 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: old me was going crazy, but you know, driving that 83 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: scene and I was in a vehicle by myself, when 84 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: we did the route from the church to the state line, 85 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: it was unbelievable. And when we stopped and you started 86 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: to talk, tell everybody what you were doing that night, 87 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: that there was a break, and then what happened afterwards. 88 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 3: First, let me tell a little bit. My grandfather worked 89 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 3: for the Department of Transportation, and we lived close to Eastview, Tennessee, 90 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 3: which is south of Selmer, about maybe six miles. But 91 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 3: at that area they had a It was a little 92 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 3: place where they parked tractors, like when they'd been mowing 93 00:05:55,040 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 3: and everything. They put their tractors in there. And besides, 94 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 3: out of it it had big tall piles of gravel 95 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 3: or chirp as we called it. Right probably within seventy 96 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 3: five or one hundred feet was a little park, a 97 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 3: state park. It had probably four or five picnic tables 98 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 3: in it, and it was right beside of Highway forty 99 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 3: five and the intersection of Highway fifty seven. Right now 100 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 3: it doesn't exist. They built a truck stop there, but 101 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 3: at that time people were pulling there that were traveling 102 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: in half picnics or whatever. But anyway, that was a 103 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 3: meeting place for Pusser and his girlfriends. It had become 104 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 3: kind of a I don't know, I don't want to say, 105 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 3: a hobby or whatever. But me and a friend of mine, 106 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 3: Johnny Harrison, would sometimes go there get up on those 107 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 3: piles of gravel. You could watch and see and hear 108 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 3: every word that was said. 109 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: How old were you, Dennis? How old were you? 110 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 3: I was sixteen? And I had a motorcycle. I didn't 111 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 3: I didn't at that time. I didn't have a car, 112 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 3: but I had a motorcycle. So I'd ride up there 113 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 3: and hide my motorcycle, climb on top of the piles 114 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 3: of gravel, and I'd listen to Beauford. He'd talk to him, 115 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 3: and then sometimes they'd get in the car with him 116 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 3: and leave their car there at that little park. And 117 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 3: sometimes he'd get in the car with them and leave 118 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 3: his car. So let's lay in the beginning of it. 119 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 3: And my friend Johnny Harrison, sometimes he'd be with me, 120 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 3: and so this particular night we were both there. Well, 121 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 3: sure enough, they went through the norms of driving around 122 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 3: the little park and making sure nobody else was there 123 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 3: and all that, and he meets one of his girlfriends 124 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 3: that particular night, they went through their little ordeal they 125 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 3: usually did, and then they pull up beside of each other. 126 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 3: When he pulled up, he told her to get out 127 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 3: of there right now, and I mean right now, get 128 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 3: out of here. And I could tell that he was 129 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 3: mad about something, you know. So she puts her car 130 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 3: in gear and takes off pretty fast, and she almost 131 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 3: hit this car that was turning it that was coming 132 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 3: across the intersection there she almost hit it head on. Well, 133 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 3: she goes on, turns, goes up towards back towards Selmer 134 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 3: where she lived. Well, this car comes on into this 135 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 3: little area and it's dark. There's nothing in there except 136 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 3: for one mercury light that there was something wrong with 137 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 3: it didn't put out like it should have it put out. 138 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 3: It was pretty weak. But anyway, that car pulls in 139 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 3: under that mercury light. Pusser he drives over to it. 140 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 3: They pull up side beside. Somebody gets out of the 141 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 3: car and it was a sixty five on Plain Jane, 142 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 3: sixty five chivallet, kind of cream colored, and Pusser he 143 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,599 Speaker 3: pulls up beside. Ed like I said, they open their trunks. 144 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 3: They get two guns out of Pusser's car, puts them 145 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 3: over in the other car. 146 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 2: Were the trunks facing each other. 147 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 3: No, No, they were parked eye beside, side by side. Okay, 148 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 3: just very quickly. I mean nobody said anything. I mean 149 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 3: I couldn't hear them say anything. I put it that way. 150 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 3: They want enough light to really tell much about the 151 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 3: guns other than you. It looked as though one of 152 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 3: them was maybe a shotgun, and the other one was shorter. 153 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 3: It was like it was a rifle or something, but 154 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 3: they were long guns. Like I said, they didn't say 155 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 3: a whole They didn't say anything hardly that I heard 156 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 3: to each other. They shut the door, I mean shut 157 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 3: the trunks on the car. That car that I was 158 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 3: talking about to almost hit the other car head on. 159 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 3: It took off, went back across Highway forty five down 160 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 3: fifty seven toward Ramer. Pusser. He shut the trunk on 161 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 3: his car. He takes off wide open, out of there 162 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 3: and back towards Selmer. Well, I me and Johnny's sitting 163 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 3: there thinking, well, what's going on tonight? We get on 164 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 3: my motorcycle. I told Johnny, let's go back to Selma. 165 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 3: I say, that's that's probably he's going up there to 166 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 3: where his girlfriend lived at her house. So we ride 167 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 3: the motorcycle up there and get up there close to 168 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 3: like sure enough, there sets his car, not at her house, 169 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 3: but at the house that was across the street, which 170 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 3: her day on two rental houses that was across the street, 171 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 3: and one of the women that lived in one of 172 00:11:54,800 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 3: those rental houses was Pete Plunk's girlfriend, which was one 173 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 3: of Pusser's main deputies, and so she lived in the 174 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 3: main house that was on the other side of the 175 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 3: street with her parents. Well, man, Johnny, I knew a 176 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 3: place that was very very close by that was up 177 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 3: in a cemetery and you could pull up in that 178 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 3: cemetery and see everything that went on down there at 179 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 3: those houses. 180 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: Okay, and this is the girlfriend he told to get 181 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: out of there. That's the same house. Okay, gotcha. 182 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 3: Okay, So we just sit there and we're watching him. 183 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 3: To me, this was important, and to the TBI it 184 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 3: was important. He was beating and banging around on the 185 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 3: sides of the house, a hollering, let me in, let 186 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 3: me in. I guess they had the front door locked 187 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 3: and he couldn't get in on that house, the house 188 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 3: at the garden, not his girl friend's house, with the 189 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 3: house across the street, beating and banging saying, let me in, 190 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 3: let me in. Tomorrow you'll be putting flowers on my grave, 191 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 3: you know. And we could hear him saying that. Hell, 192 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 3: we didn't know what he is talking about. Her, you know, 193 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 3: is crazy talking. He acts like he is either high 194 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 3: or been drinking pretty good. But anyway, and he kept 195 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 3: on beating and beating finally and saying the hollering that 196 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 3: finally they opened the door and let him in. Well, 197 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 3: he was in there, I don't know how long, ten 198 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 3: fifteen minutes something like that. Then the door opens back up. 199 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 3: He's pulling his girlfriend, got her by the arm, dragging 200 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 3: her out out, trying to get her pull her into 201 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 3: his car that was parked up front. She gets out 202 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 3: in the middle of the street, pulling away from him, 203 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 3: and finally pulls away from him and goes to room. 204 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 3: It runs and gets in the end of the where 205 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 3: the door was in the house that the back door 206 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 3: kind of that pore her mother and daddy lived. And 207 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 3: he started after and then each stopped, turned around and 208 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:20,239 Speaker 3: came back, got in the car, took off, squalling tires 209 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 3: and showing out and running up the road, and turned 210 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 3: around and came back down the road. That I mean street, 211 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 3: the street that running run between the two houses, wide open, 212 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 3: you know. And I told Johnny, I said, well, I 213 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 3: wonder where he's going now. And we got on the motorcycle, 214 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 3: come down the little old street back onto the highway 215 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 3: there in Selmer. And when we topped the little hill 216 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 3: you could see down into the town. He had stopped at. 217 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 3: It was a Phillip sixty six service station, which is 218 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 3: where he always had his car service that and he'd 219 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 3: always buy a gas there, and I mean that was 220 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 3: I guess they had a charge account there or something, 221 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 3: but that was always where he went. So anyway, we 222 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 3: saw him park there, we could tell that. So I 223 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 3: let the motorcycle coast down through there and turned that 224 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 3: turned it off so we couldn't hear it. We coasted 225 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 3: up as close as we could and hid the motorcycle 226 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 3: and was watching. Well. He had gotten out of the 227 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 3: car and there was a little short guy there called uh, 228 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 3: I can't even think of his last name now, Shorty McDaniel, 229 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 3: and he worked there, and he had started putting gas 230 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 3: in Pusser had walked inside. He went in the bathroom, 231 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 3: came back out, and their phone was right there in 232 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 3: front of where the bathroom was. He got on the 233 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 3: phone and made a phone call. I have no worky 234 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 3: idea who he called or what. He wrote something down 235 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 3: on a pad, ripped that off the off of the 236 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 3: little pad there, and he started back out to the 237 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 3: car and Shorty was I guess through putting gas. About 238 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 3: the time he got there, Shorty took the nozzle out 239 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 3: and he jumped in the car and took off whide slinging, 240 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 3: you know, showing out and there's a bridge there. He 241 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 3: was squalling. I bet, I bet when he come under 242 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 3: the light down there, he was running probably ninety miles 243 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 3: an hour right there in town. So I told Johnny, 244 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 3: I said, well, I guess he's going back to Adamsville. 245 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 3: That was the hit way he was headed. Everything is over. 246 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 3: That was about by that time. It was about probably 247 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 3: two or two thirty in the morning. Told Johnny, I said, 248 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 3: I'm going on home. When Johnny had parked his car, 249 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 3: there were at my grandmother and Granddaddy's where I live. 250 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 3: We go on home. Johnny gets in his car, heads home. 251 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 3: I go in, go go in and go to bed. 252 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 2: All right, let me ask you one question. In nineteen 253 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 2: sixty seven at Phillip sixty six, would it have been 254 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 2: open or did Shorty live there? 255 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 3: Oh? No, no, no, it was open twenty four hours. 256 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: Twenty four hours. Okay, okay, right, it was open twenty 257 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 2: I didn't know if you woke him up. Okay, Well, 258 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 2: you know something, Danny. 259 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: I want to get back to Dennis in a second, 260 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: because I just want people to understand that chirp gravel. 261 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 2: It's hard to. 262 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: Sneak up on somebody if you're driving on that. It's 263 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: actually one of my favorite sounds in the whole world. 264 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: But when you're talking about the girlfriend's pulling up, and 265 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: then the other cars pulling up, you can hear them 266 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: coming from a ways. 267 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 2: Away if they're on truck rave. So you now start 268 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: where you go to bed. What happens when your granddaddy 269 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 2: wakes you up? 270 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 3: Well, my granddaddy came in there and woke me up 271 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 3: about i'd say, probably a little bit before six o'clock, 272 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 3: and he said, Dennis said, get up, Johnny's in there 273 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 3: claiming on the phone, claiming he's got to talk to you. 274 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 3: I said, well, what does he want? I said, what 275 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 3: does he want? It hadn't been two or three hours 276 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 3: since we were together. He said, I don't know what. 277 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 3: They claimed he's got to talk to you. Got up 278 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 3: and I said, what is Johnny? He said, somebody ambush Beauford. 279 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 3: They and they killed Pauline and I don't think he's 280 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,360 Speaker 3: going to leave. I said, what are you talking about? Hell, 281 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 3: it hadn't been two or three hours since we saw me. 282 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 3: He was up there in town. He said, Now I'm 283 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 3: telling you. I said, how do you know that? He 284 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:15,959 Speaker 3: said one of the deputies had come by their house 285 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 3: and woke his daddy up. Mother and dad. Well, I 286 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 3: don't know about the mother, but the daddy up and 287 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 3: had told him that it had happened. And now the 288 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 3: reason for that is because his dad on Harrison Vending, 289 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 3: and that was where they had a little vending company, 290 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 3: and they had all the pool tables and pimball machines 291 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 3: and cigarette machines and Pusser and him was I guess 292 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 3: you'd call it partners. He would give Pusser money to 293 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 3: tell the nightclub owners that were around there, I want 294 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 3: you to put Harrison's vending machines in and not just 295 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 3: the nightclubs, but the service stations and places like that. 296 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 3: So anyway, so the deputy had come by and told 297 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 3: his daddy his name was John that it had happened, 298 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 3: and he got on the phone and called me. I said, well, 299 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 3: I don't believe it, Johnny, but I'll tell you what. 300 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 3: I'm going to ride over there. He told me that 301 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 3: it happened on New Hope Road. I'm going to ride 302 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 3: over there to New Hope Road and see what I 303 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 3: can see, and you just come on down here. And 304 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 3: of course then you didn't have cell phones to call, 305 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 3: so I said, you just meet me down there on 306 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 3: New Hope Road. So it just so happened that my 307 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 3: grandmother and granddaddy Lee was there close to these few 308 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 3: and I could take a little fuel road, little dirt 309 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 3: road and ride through it and be over there on 310 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 3: New Hope Road in a matter of maybe eighteen minutes. 311 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 3: So I got on the motorcycle, took off one across 312 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 3: through there, got over there on New Hope Road. I 313 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 3: just accidentally turned the right way and as I went 314 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 3: over the hill, just right after I had to make 315 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 3: a turn there, said r C. Matlock. He was a 316 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 3: deputy with the car across the bridge. It was where 317 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 3: they say the first am part of the ambush was 318 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 3: he had it sitting across that bridge long ways blocking traffic. 319 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 3: So I ride down there and I said, by when 320 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 3: I pulled up, Arcie said little at Cock, what are 321 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 3: you doing here? I said, well, the question is what 322 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 3: are you doing here? And he said all right there. 323 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 3: They had an ambush for Newford last night. They killed 324 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 3: Pauline and they don't think he's going to live. He's 325 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 3: on his way to Memphis my ambulance. I said, where 326 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 3: did it happen? He said, right here, right here, right here, 327 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 3: on this bridge. I was sitting there looking and I said, 328 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 3: I mean, what, how do you know that? And he said, well, 329 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 3: he told he told Pete when they had him in 330 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 3: the ambulance, that this is where it happened. And I 331 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 3: was looking and I didn't seen nothing except a little 332 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 3: pile of glass about like you put in your hand, 333 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 3: was on that bridge. It was right in the middle 334 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 3: of the bridge. And I said, well, what who did 335 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 3: He said, I don't know, but you need to get 336 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 3: out of here. I'm telling you you need to get 337 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 3: out of here because they're on their way down there. 338 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 3: And I said, who's on their way down there? He said, 339 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 3: there'll be all kinds of law, all the highway patrol. 340 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 3: Everybody's on their way down here, and you don't need 341 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 3: to And I said, okay, okay, I'm out of here. 342 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 3: So I took off on my motorcycle and went on 343 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 3: down the road towards the state line. Well, I got 344 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 3: about two miles down the road and right there in 345 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 3: the middle of the road was glass all over the 346 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 3: left side or the east side of the road was 347 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 3: just glass everywhere. And I started stopping, and I pulled 348 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 3: over and kickstanding down on my motorcycle, and I was 349 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 3: getting off over toward the other side, and I looked 350 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 3: down there in it was a ditch, a little little old, 351 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 3: not even probably six inches deep, ditch that had been 352 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 3: dug on the side of the road for the water 353 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 3: to drain. Anyway, looked. I just happened to look over there. 354 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 3: And when I did, there was the top of her skull, 355 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 3: and it still had the scalp attached to it, and 356 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 3: that blonde hair of hers was all stringy and strung 357 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 3: out with blood, and you know, and and it already 358 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 3: flies was swarm, you know, had got on that blood. 359 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:26,959 Speaker 3: And there was I guess it was brain matter some 360 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 3: something like some kind of tissue or something was all 361 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 3: around it. So I sat there and looked at it. 362 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 3: I stood there and looked at it, and I thought, 363 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 3: I be honest, I thought it was a big tale 364 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 3: that Pusser had made up and told her that they 365 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 3: were telling some And I had the thought, I thought, 366 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 3: this is for real, he something, this is this has anyway, 367 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 3: So I got a little looking around. Finally I looked 368 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 3: around and in the road there was several I don't 369 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 3: know how, I didn't count them, but there were several holes, 370 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 3: empty holes in the road, and they went going at 371 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 3: about a four o'clock direction from the center of the 372 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 3: road over to the off the edge of the road. 373 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 3: And I walked over there to them, and I was 374 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 3: standing there looking at them, and I started to pick 375 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 3: one of them up, and then I thought, boy, I 376 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 3: better not touch nothing. I need to get up there 377 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 3: and tell them, tell RC that he's at the wrong place. 378 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 3: So I got back on the motorcycle and took off 379 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 3: went up there in the rc or. When I pulled up, 380 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 3: he said, I told you to get out of here. 381 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 3: I said, listen, this is not where this happened. It's 382 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 3: on down the road. And he said, well, this is 383 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 3: where Buford said it happened. And I said, well, I 384 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 3: don't care what Buford said or worried. It's on down 385 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 3: the road here. So it's down there by that it was, 386 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 3: I said, an old black cemetery, Saint Rest cemetery. And 387 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 3: he said, well, I'm telling you get out of here 388 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 3: right now, and I mean it. And I said, okay, 389 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 3: So I took the motorcycle and want to go around 390 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 3: the end of the car. And when I went around 391 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 3: the end of the car, I looked up and there, 392 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 3: sure enough it came as a highway patrol, two or 393 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 3: three of them. And here was as a string of cars, 394 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 3: I probably twenty twenty cars in a row coming down 395 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 3: through there. 396 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 2: Oh, I guarantee they were coming. 397 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 3: Oh yeah. And I just pulled over on the side 398 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 3: of the road right there at the edge of that 399 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 3: of that little bridge. I mean I didn't, I don't 400 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 3: guess I went twenty twenty twenty feet up throat. I 401 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 3: just pulled over and stomped. And here they all came, 402 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 3: and they was stopping and they're running up there in 403 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 3: the RC. He was out of the car telling them 404 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 3: this and that, and I just sit there and listen 405 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 3: to him and watching. And Pete Plunk he got down 406 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 3: there and he was telling them all that. Beuford told 407 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 3: him that they had he thought there was a sniper 408 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 3: nest down there. And he was tramping down some little 409 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 3: grass was real tall, probably knee higher. He is stomping 410 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 3: down on it looking for a claiming he is looking 411 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 3: for a sniper's nest, and all that kind of stuff. 412 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 3: And finally he said, right here, it is here. 413 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 5: It is ha ha. 414 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 3: The had they was right here, and when they come 415 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 3: across the bridge, they shot into the car and that's 416 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 3: when they hit Paul. He is telling them all that. 417 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 3: Finally there, while I was there, Johnny finally got there 418 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 3: and he came back. I said, I told him, I said, 419 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 3: look here, peety plung out there stomping around, and I said, 420 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 3: if there is a sniper's nest or anything out there, 421 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 3: he's destroyed it. I mean he's destroying the evidence said 422 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 3: stuff out there. So were just sitting there and I 423 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 3: hadn't seen Warren Jones, who was the TV main TBI agent. 424 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 3: I knew him, but I hadn't seen him yet. And 425 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 3: then I looked up here he come walking down the road. 426 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 3: So when mister Jones came by me, I said, I said, hey, 427 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 3: mister Jones, And I said, yeah, what is it? And 428 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 3: I said, this is not where this happened. And he said, 429 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 3: he said, what do you mean it's not where it happened. 430 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 3: I said, well, on down the road here, and I 431 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 3: told him about a couple of miles down the road 432 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 3: before you get to that old cemetery I said, there's 433 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 3: glass all over the road. There's holes in the road, 434 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 3: and I'm not sure, but it looks like the top 435 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 3: of her head and her skull and her scalp and 436 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 3: stuff all around it, you know. And he said, where's 437 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 3: that again? And I said, O down the road here 438 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 3: a couple of miles, and he said, I ate, And 439 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 3: he didn't say nothing much. He just walked on over 440 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 3: to the to RC and all of them is standing 441 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 3: on the little bridge. So, you know, me and Johnny 442 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 3: kept standing there, sitting there, and we even walked over, 443 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 3: and I guess that's when they took our picture. Anyway, 444 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 3: there's a picture of me and Johnny standing there on 445 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 3: the bridge and a bunch of them all around to 446 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 3: talking in anyway, So when he went to leave, I 447 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 3: was back over. He come over there by the motorcycle. 448 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 3: He said, now, where didn't you say that was? And 449 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 3: I said, it's on down the road a couple of miles. 450 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 3: I said, you can't miss it, and he kind of 451 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 3: act like he didn't know what I was talking about. 452 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 3: And I said, well, i'll tell you what. I'm gonna 453 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 3: ride on down there and I'll be down there and 454 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 3: i'll meet you I'll be there where you're going. So 455 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 3: I got on the motorcycle and rode down there. Johnny 456 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 3: he stayed there and got in his car, and I 457 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 3: don't know where he went to, but anyway, I rode 458 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 3: down there and there was a pull off right on 459 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 3: the other side that went into that cemetery, and I 460 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 3: just stopped there and sit there. Sure not, in about 461 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 3: five minutes or that highway patrol car came came in, 462 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 3: and then here come I think it was Jim Moff 463 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 3: that was next. And then the next thing I knowed 464 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 3: it was a whole bunch of them, and I saw 465 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 3: mister Jones down there. I mean, none of them ever 466 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 3: came down there to whereat or said a word to me. 467 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 3: It's just like I was there. And finally I thought, well, 468 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 3: they don't want me here, So I got I left 469 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 3: on the motorcycle and went on down to the Highway 470 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 3: forty five and came back up to my grandmother's. And 471 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 3: then later on the day I went to Selmer and 472 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 3: they had the car up there at Sibley's Sibley Chevrolet, 473 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 3: and I looked at it and looked at the bullet 474 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 3: holes and stuck my finger in one or two of them, 475 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 3: and you know, and that's about it. 476 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: Well, you know what, Danny, you having the medical emergency background. 477 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: When Dennis describes part of her skull with the hair 478 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: and the brain matter, he is very clear on what 479 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: he saw. 480 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 6: Yes, he was, and just I guess for your listeners 481 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 6: to give me a little bit of a background. That 482 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 6: is what I do know with not only medical, but 483 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 6: I'm a former board certified deaths investigator for many many 484 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 6: years and worked many crime scenes and many calls where 485 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 6: people have been shot in the head, you know, And 486 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 6: when I see something that's kind of different between like 487 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,959 Speaker 6: what you and Jason look at, I look at it 488 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 6: through I guess, a different set of eyes. Where you 489 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 6: look at the crime as a whole. I look at 490 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 6: the body and that's where that's what I investigate. I 491 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 6: investigate the body and just immediate surrounding of the body 492 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 6: to see the blood stains, patterns, to see how maybe 493 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 6: the direction of travel of of a projectile. But to me, 494 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 6: whenever if talking, to listen to what Dennis is saying, 495 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 6: and I command Dennis, I've heard this story, I bet 496 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 6: one hundred times, and it's always always the same. He 497 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 6: doesn't leave a detail out and I know both of 498 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,239 Speaker 6: you go, oh, you guys have heard this, and that 499 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 6: is really that's really something for me to hear. That 500 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 6: tells That tells you something. He's telling you what he 501 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 6: saw and he remembers it this long of a time. 502 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 6: But seeing that skull, the hair attached to that hurt 503 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 6: the top of her head, to me, I mean, I 504 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 6: was just from my background in my medical training and 505 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 6: my death investigator training, it would appear to me like 506 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 6: because she was shot, Like he says, well, we've heard 507 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 6: already from the back of the head and the top 508 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 6: of her head came off and landed in the bench. 509 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: And as a death investigator, the detail he's given as 510 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: a sixteen year old, I mean, that's something he's not 511 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: going to say from it. I mean, like you said, 512 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: I've heard him say it. I was standing on the 513 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: side of the road where he found it when he 514 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 1: told me the first time. But if you take Jason's 515 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: skill set in your skill set in his testimony, I 516 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 1: think you can draw a pretty good conclusion. 517 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 2: Now, Mike, I want to come back. 518 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: To you because this is something that I think. I mean, 519 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: I've worked cold cases since twenty four and never have 520 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 1: I had somebody contact me and say, hey, I think 521 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 1: I've got something attached to your case. What did somebody 522 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: call you and tell you they had? 523 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 4: They told me that they possibly had the car being 524 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 4: that was used in the ambush, And of course, you know, 525 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 4: I thought I'd heard that story a dozen times before, 526 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 4: but you know, I always ask about it, you know, 527 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 4: because I'd used my Facebook page age about Buford Puss 528 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 4: the other story, and my YouTube channel by the same 529 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 4: name as a fishing hole, and this individual said that 530 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 4: they had never even commented on my page, but they 531 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 4: had followed it for a number of years, and so 532 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 4: they finally decided I was the real deal, and I 533 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 4: was wanting to know what actually happened. And so, you know, 534 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 4: it didn't take me long to drive over there. I 535 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 4: mean it's four hundred and sixty five miles, but I 536 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 4: left pretty quick, got over there, shot the gun, photographed it, 537 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 4: took serial number and other information from the firearm, and 538 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 4: had a associate that was in law enforcement run the 539 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 4: information for me. And you know, we realized that there 540 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 4: was a backstory that connected it very possibly to Buford. 541 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 4: So well, the uh I got his permission, I call 542 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 4: the TBI and then they contacted this individual and a 543 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 4: day later they came out picked it up. And uh 544 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 4: shortly after that that, you know, I got a call 545 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 4: from the TB. I wanted to know what other information 546 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 4: I might. 547 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 2: Have, So I bet you did. 548 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 3: I shared a lot with. 549 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 4: Them, but they don't share anything with me. But I 550 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 4: understand it, you know, because they have a law in 551 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 4: place over there that prevents them from sharing information. So 552 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 4: I understood it. 553 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 3: And just. 554 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 4: Tried to help them in any way I could by 555 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 4: answering any questions they had and providing anything that I 556 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 4: possibly could. 557 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 2: Mike, could you do a chain of position? Do you 558 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 2: know where it came from? 559 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 4: Well? It I can say this much that it appears 560 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 4: that it came from the Air Force, that it had 561 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 4: been part of the firearms that were at a particular 562 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 4: basis they were phasing the m ones out for the 563 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 4: next version of of the gun that they were going 564 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 4: to use. O'Neill Moffatt of all people, the Chief Deputy 565 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 4: Son was in the Air Force, and when I visited 566 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 4: with him, he told me said, you know, we were 567 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 4: told to pick them up and that they were going 568 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 4: to be disposed of. And so he said, you know, 569 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 4: I thought about disposed of, and he said, you know, 570 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 4: I just thought i'd help the Air Force out a 571 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 4: little bit, he said, So I took a few of 572 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 4: them and got them back up to McNairy County and 573 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 4: I sold them and said, Youwford got several and which 574 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 4: matched up with this other individual story. And that's when 575 00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 4: I knew that I needed to call the TBI. I 576 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 4: will say that O'Neill knew by then that he was 577 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 4: in trouble. After they inventoried all the firearms that had 578 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 4: been turned in at the Air Force and they realized 579 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 4: some were missing, and of course they knew who was 580 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 4: on the detail to pick all these firearms up, and 581 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 4: so he just knew that he was going to be 582 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 4: in trouble. So he went to see Beauford. Beauford and 583 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 4: he went to Jackson and they talked spoke with an 584 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 4: individual there. I don't know exactly who that was, but 585 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 4: said that helped him out a great deal and that 586 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 4: he could have been in a lot worse trouble. Now 587 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 4: I still had to go to federal court, and I 588 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 4: guess plead guilty to what he had done, but at 589 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 4: least he wasn't sentenced. And I might add that it 590 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 4: really taught O'Neil a good lesson because later he had 591 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 4: to jump through a lot of hoops. But he'd later 592 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 4: gotten law enforcement himself and became a criminal investigator there 593 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 4: for the Sheriff's Department under Sheriff James opel Gray. 594 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 1: Really, okay, well that's an interesting little twist. 595 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 2: But I reckoned that would make a good investigator, you know. 596 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 4: That's what got the whole thing kicked off. Like I say, 597 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 4: they contacted me, and I started sharing what I had 598 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 4: in my files, and it was interesting to note that 599 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 4: I took some items over there, and when I realized 600 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 4: that I was going to be meeting with them, and 601 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 4: Dennis came down to where I was staying down there, 602 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 4: and that's when we got in the conversation, and I 603 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 4: first learned that Dennis had never given a statement or 604 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 4: been asked for a statement back eighteen sixty seven, so 605 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 4: that that part was interesting. 606 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 2: That is interesting, especially since they knew he was their 607 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 2: own thing. 608 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 4: You would have thought that they would have asked him 609 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 4: about that, since he was the one that discovered the 610 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 4: second ambush site where most of the shooting took place 611 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,280 Speaker 4: but didn't happen. 612 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 2: Apparently Jason. 613 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,919 Speaker 1: Isn't it hilarious when you listen to Mike and he says, well, yeah, 614 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: you know, I found the you know, m one that 615 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: was possibly used in the ambush, and I guess that's 616 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,359 Speaker 1: just what got things kicked off. 617 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 2: Well I guess, so. 618 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, i'd say, you know, I think from that 619 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 5: point that's when they started. Really I'm not going to 620 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,359 Speaker 5: say that that that case really hadn't moved much. And 621 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,240 Speaker 5: so at that point they're getting to a point where 622 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 5: they're now seeking to try to exum Pauline's body. That's 623 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 5: not easy to do. 624 00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 2: That proves to. 625 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: Me how seriously they took that weapon, because they did 626 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 1: exhume her. 627 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 2: And to me, what they're looking for are the injuries 628 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 2: gonna match up to what the sheriff said