WEBVTT - Incomplete/Unfinished 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:14.400 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind from housetop dot Com. 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:18.159 Three brothers named Franklin, Emmett, and Bill are together in 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:21.320 prison for a failed case of rail robbery in Oklahoma. 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:23.439 Their plan had been to make off with all the 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.360 packages from a US Post Office mail car, which they 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.040 reasoned would have some expensive merchandise on the way to 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:32.479 the west. Instead, they got tracked down by US marshals 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:36.400 and sentenced to thirty years in a federal penitentiary. On 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:39.400 the one year anniversary of their incarceration, the prison gets 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:42.320 a new warden. This warden, everybody says, is a soft 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:46.840 hearted academic social scientists type, and instead of harsh punishments, 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:49.880 he brings in new accommodations for the prisoners. One is 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:53.000 a newly stocked library and a collection of board games. 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.760 How sweet. One day, Bill, the youngest of the brothers, 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.800 brings his brothers a spirit board from the board game card. 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:02.200 He suggests they use it to ask how they can 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:06.160 escape the prison. Laughing, the older brother, Franklin, balks at 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:09.600 this otherworldly nonsense, but Bill convinces them to play, and 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:11.720 so the three brothers put their hands on the plant 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:15.600 of the spirit board. After several minutes of asking questions 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.800 and getting no answers, the plancher begins to move, ever 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:22.399 so slowly at first, but then gaining speed, and it spells, 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:27.160 I want to talk to Bill, so Franklin laughs, but 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:29.600 Bill is dead serious. He takes the board away in 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:31.720 the corner by himself and spends the rest of the 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:34.399 day with it. The next morning, out in the yard, 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.039 Bill is shot by guards while trying to climb over 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:40.360 the fence. Stupid, Franklin says, why would Bill have thought 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.840 he could make it? A month goes by Immett. The 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:46.959 middle brother brings the spirit board back, and he suggests 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:49.000 they use it to see if they can contact Bill 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:51.440 to ask him why he did such a stupid thing. 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.680 They do im it speaks to the air, Franklin shits quietly. 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.120 After several minutes of nothing, the plancha finally starts to 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:03.320 move its else I want to talk to Emmett. Emmett 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:05.640 takes the board by himself to the corner and spends 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:07.880 the rest of the day playing with it in silence. 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.360 The next morning, Emmett has wall cleaning duty on the 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:13.480 guard towers, and in the middle of this he tries 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:15.880 to jump from the tower over the fence and breaks 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:18.720 his neck. It was so high, why would he have 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:22.840 thought he could survive? Immediately afterwards, Franklin goes to the 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:26.359 prison library and retrieves the spirit board for himself. He 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:28.880 takes it to a quiet corner. He says, what have 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:31.800 you been telling my brothers? The plant you under his 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:37.360 fingers begins to move, and unfortunately that's all there is 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:41.160 of the story. Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:43.600 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. What 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:48.000 happens next? How can we leave it there? The just 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:51.320 the ragged ends of the story. We're bleeding all over 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:55.320 the place. What are we supposed to do? It leaves 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:58.359 us hungry for more? Joe, Uh, So, I wrote that story, 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.240 so that may have been a horrible story. I was 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:05.000 trying to inflict the pain that people feel when there 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:07.679 is a story that's set up that is not completed. 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:10.920 I know we all have this experience. You ever have 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:13.600 one of those great uh TV shows that gets one 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:16.440 season going, everybody likes it, and then it gets canceled 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:18.960 and you never know what what was going to happen? Yeah? 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:23.519 I seem to recall having the same experience with Stephen 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.120 King's Golden Years back in the day. I don't know 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:29.320 what that is. It was like a TV show that 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.440 he did about this guy that was getting older or 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:34.679 getting younger. It's been a long time, but they have 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.280 the David Bowe's song is the theme song. And uh, 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:39.000 it just it did not do well and it did 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.640 not get picked up, and I have no idea what happened, um, 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:45.760 and I never will. Wow, it's a horrible feeling. Yeah, 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.320 I mean, even if the material is not that good, 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:51.960 it sticks with you. You you want to follow it through. 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:56.440 You want to have the complete experience of that story. Right. 0:03:56.760 --> 0:04:00.040 So this episode We're gonna do today is about the 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:04.920 concept of incompleteness and unfinished ideas in art, in science, 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:08.480 and in psychology in general. But this was actually inspired 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:12.120 by a couple of events that you attended when you 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:14.040 were recently in New York City. But I think we 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:16.880 were actually in New York City around the same time, 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:20.640 the same week, Yeah, separately, and you I think you 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:23.760 left right before I arrived and we didn't actually realize 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:27.520 that this was happening. But but yeah, I was. I 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:30.360 was in New York for the World Science Festival, which 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.479 I tried to attend at least every couple of years. 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:38.479 And uh, I attended a fabulous discussion titled to Unweave 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:42.279 a Rainbow, Science and the Essence of Being Human. And 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:44.640 by the time this publishers, I believe the video is 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.200 actually available for everyone else. I'll make sure that we 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:49.720 include a link to it on the landing page for 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.800 this episode. UH. And I also attended a wonderful exhibit 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:57.000 at the Metropolitan Museum of Art titled The Unfinished Thoughts 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:00.479 Left Visible. This is crazy because when I was New York, 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:02.560 I all I went to the met but I did 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:05.160 not see this exhibit, and that drives me crazy, not 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:08.000 only because I was unable to finish seeing everything at 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.520 the DUM and thus my museum experience is left incomplete 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:15.479 and unfinished task, but also because this exhibit sounds really cool. 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.520 Oh yes, indeed, it's um It features a features a 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:22.120 vast gallery of incomplete works um by a number of 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:26.200 just really famous artists, and each work exposes something of 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:30.160 the artist process, uh, the realities of the artistic process, 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.400 and something of the the timescape in which each one 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:38.599 was produced. So um, yeah, it's a fascinating exhibit. It's 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.640 as as of this publication date, it's still ongoing through 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:43.720 most of this year, So if you're in New York 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:45.880 or you're making it up that way, go check it out. 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:48.839 But also, the the online presence for the exhibit is 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.120 is pretty strong as well. Any piece that we mentioned 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.520 here and all the ones that we do not mention, 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:57.400 they are all viewable at the METS website. Cool. So 0:05:57.480 --> 0:05:59.359 I guess this episode is probably going to be a 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:03.240 little bit looser than many of them. Yeah, that's the 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:05.480 way I'm kind of envisioning it, that it's going to 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:07.480 be more sort of back and forth and just talking 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:11.440 about ideas here because both experiences, both the World Science 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.839 Festival panel and the exhibited to MET, really got me 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:18.800 thinking about the nature of incompleteness and finished unfinished works 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:21.320 and the human experience. So yeah, I thought we'd dive 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:24.400 dive into the topic of it here um and just 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:26.919 see where it takes us. Will we will get to 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:30.520 some more you know, sort of scientific material towards the 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:33.240 end in case, in case everything feels a little too 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:37.200 lucy doocy to you. Alright, So here we are. Let's 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:42.320 talk a little bit about human obsessions with completeness, and 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.200 the sort of unfinished nature of our lives. It's kind 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.240 of a weird paradox, isn't it. Yeah, why is it that? 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:50.719 It drove me crazy? When I was in New York 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:52.359 at the same time, I was going to museums. I 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.320 went to Brooklyn Museum, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and 0:06:56.400 --> 0:07:01.200 the American Natural History Museum. All fantastic. At the met 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:04.520 and the Natural History Museum, I was not able to 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:07.279 see everything in the museum in a day. Yeah, They're 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:10.920 gigantic museums, and that drove me crazy. I felt like 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:13.320 I was going insane because I was like, I've spent 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:15.240 a whole day here, I haven't even gotten through half 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.000 of it. Uh. But if I had gone to a 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:21.760 museum that was composed entirely of only the things I 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.960 was able to see at those museums, that would have 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:29.840 been a wonderful experience. Yeah. It was just the knowledge 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:33.120 that I hadn't finished it. I mean I even find 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.040 that towards the end, even the stuff that I have 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:38.800 time to to look at and try to absorb, by 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.280 the end of my my visit, I have I'm feeling 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:43.680 enough of a cognitive drain that I know that I'm 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:48.920 not properly assimilating all the information, So really I need 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:50.600 to always make it a point to just hit the 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:54.000 stuff is most interesting to me first and pray that 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.640 I don't run across something even more interesting later in 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.680 the visit, especially on the way out when you have 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.320 no time to see it at all. Yeah, So part 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:04.760 of this is of course just just you know, as 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.080 far as the broader human experience goes, it's just a 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:11.720 quest for like an understanding of the world. Uh, you 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:13.360 want to know where you are, you want to know 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:15.760 what's around the corner, and in a larger sense, you 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.000 want to a concise cosmology. We want to know where 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.440 we came from, where we're going. We want to know 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:22.560 how the world works and how we can exploit that 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:27.160 information to better carry out all those biological objectives that 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:29.920 we have mandated in our genes. But of course we 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.160 can't know all that, right, We're never going to know everything. Yeah, 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:35.600 we can fool ourselves into thinking we know all the 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:39.200 necessary information and it given time, such as what are 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:40.959 the main exhibits we want to see at the met 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:43.000 But then we turn a corner on our way out 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:46.120 and we realized there was something we wanted to see, uh, 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.280 and we just didn't know it was there. But that 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:52.000 same kind of obsession with having a complete picture, complete 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:54.840 view that comes in in art to get what's that 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.560 old expression, who is it who said that? You know? Uh, 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:00.560 poems or novels, maybe whatever it is, they're they're never 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:05.040 really finished, They're only abandoned. Yeah, yeah, that's and that's 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:08.240 I think that's an accurate statement to bring up. Yeah, 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:10.960 even even a work like that, which is a contained work, 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:14.760 a self contained universe in many senses, with a definite beginning, middle, 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:21.280 and end. Uh, even those are arguably all incomplete. Um. 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:23.640 And of course all any of this is completely out 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:26.439 of step with our experience of reality. Our lives are 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:29.360 in a constant state of incompleteness. You know, we're all 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:33.240 half finished. Stories, are relationships, or values, are beliefs, They're 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:36.200 constantly in flux. And we have this this maddening, more 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:38.040 you know, empowering, depending on how you look at it, 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:42.080 ability to believe in multiple things that totally contradict each other. 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:45.960 So as much as we crave a complete narrative, as 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:49.400 much as we crave a complete cosmology, our own inner 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:54.359 experience is just a jumble that best we're able to 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:57.319 to to sort of deceive ourselves into thinking of as 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:01.040 part of a more complete war. Okay, so how does 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:03.559 this tie I can see how it ties into the 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:06.480 met exhibit with unfinished works of art, but how does 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:08.880 this tie into the discussion you saw at the World 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:12.960 Science Festival. Okay, So the talking question was to unweave 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.880 a rainbow science in the essence of being human, and 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.960 it featured a three way discussion between physicist Brian Greene 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.440 is also one of the founders of the World Science Festival, 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:26.920 neuroscientist Miguel Nicolaylis, and writer Leon weasel Tier weasel Tier. 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.520 So their their conversation wove in and out of this 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:35.360 very notion of basically with a focus on on science 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:41.120 and non scientific understanding of science and religion, science and philosophy, 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:45.480 talking about each one's ability to try and create a 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:49.440 complete picture or even just to go after a complete 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:53.200 picture of what the universe is, what the human experiences. 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.840 Weaseltier in particular took up the more the pro religion, 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:02.800 pro philosophy argue in here um and he just makes methods. 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:05.120 Yeah yeah, and he brought it up, you know, basically 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:07.400 and saying that you know, this is this is the 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:09.160 best way to trump what is the best way to 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:11.840 trump uncertainty in our lives? You know, we have science 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:14.319 and we have religion. We need to feel that our 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:17.400 lives or an outcome of something, so we want to 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.160 turn to something that has a complete answer. But of 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:24.040 course there's that we run into obvious problems there. First, 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:28.480 Let's stake science, right, um, sciences we understand it on 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:31.360 the show, and I think his most listeners understand it 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.360 is not a complete understanding of the universe. I think 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:36.720 one of the quickest ways you can tell someone is 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.440 not scientifically literate is when they say something like, oh, 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:44.800 scientists think that that science gives you all the answers. Uh. 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.120 That that is not what science is about. It is, 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.800 in fact, always uncertainty. Uh. And anybody who thinks like 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:55.000 that probably doesn't interact with science very much. Right and 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:58.880 and Weaseltier put a nice little summary over this discussed 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:02.160 by discussing an intern of science and vulgar science, saying 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.440 that you know, real science is questing after the answers 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:09.320 and is inherently incomplete, whereas vulgar science is more of 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:13.640 this sort of idea of science, this bumper sticker Um, 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:17.800 I love science level of scientific understanding where it's really 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.600 more like a religious understanding of science. It's just dogma's 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:25.400 science says we know X, rather than thinking about the 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:29.040 method itself. Right. But then in terms of religion, he 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.480 makes a distinction between religion and vulgar religion. The idea 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.160 here being that just as vulgar science believes that science 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.360 has all the answers and shouldn't be questioned, and is this, 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.280 you know, bumper sticker understanding of it, you also have 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:43.760 this version of religion that thinks, oh well, it's it's 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.120 written on a tablet somewhere, it's all taken care of, 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:51.160 it's all explained. Whereas you know it, at higher levels 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:55.000 of most faiths, you're going to encounter a lot more 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.959 consideration there is. I mean that when you get into 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:02.440 theological discussions of how this model of faith interacts with 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.240 the human experience and with our daily lives, it's gonna 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:09.640 be a little more nuanced and particularly and and possibly changing. 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.920 This is weasel weasel tears yea weasel tears argua. So 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:15.680 that religion also has a sort of quest for meaning 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:18.480 version that that leaves a sort of radical openness in 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.679 the same way science does. Yeah, radical openness. I think 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:23.960 that's a that's that's a good way to put it. 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:26.720 Uh So, so I really liked his argument that you 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:31.640 can find that radical openness on both sides. UM. Now, 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.400 as far as art goes there, there was actually some 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:39.719 direct references to Art in this talk. Uh. Miguel Nicolaylis, 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:43.400 who who's a very interesting neuroscientists by the way, involved 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:48.400 in a number of different UM projects that involve using 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:52.679 an exoskeleton device to assist severely paralyzed patients. Imagine he's 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:54.720 come up in your work. Yes, I've read about him 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:59.120 with with mind computer interfaces. Yeah, so he's he's a 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.600 great guy to here talk about sort of the limits 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:05.040 of the human mind. Sorry, more accurately, I should say 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.120 brain computer in Oh yeah, I mean with mind you 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:11.760 get into different territory. Yeah, And in this discussion, Nikolaalis 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:16.080 is definitely taking the brain approach, and uh and weasel 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.320 t here is more of the mind spokesman, I guess 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:22.080 you could say, but Nikolaals brings up this idea that 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:24.400 that art was once very precise. So you go, you're 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.320 going through the mat or any art museum. You're looking 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:29.360 at the older pieces and what not, the really old pieces. 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:34.640 But you know, so certainly Renaissance work, you're all representative. Yeah, 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:41.640 you're seeing very almost photographic paintings of what people look like. Uh. People, 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.240 the artists are trying to create an image of the world. 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:48.360 Is everyone else sees it universal truth? Right? But then 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:50.920 we reached this point when artists want to paint their 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:54.360 own experiences of something rather than the universal experience of 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:59.160 the thing. Um so uh, you get into these areas 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:03.480 such as um uh. Well. On one specific example that 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:07.960 that was brought up was William Turner's steamboat painting. I 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:10.120 see you have a picture of this in here. I do, 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:12.360 and it's it looks kind of like a bunch of 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:16.320 hair going down the drain. Yeah, it's uh, if you 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:20.000 could say that, it's definitely kind of brownish, blackish, bluish 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:23.920 swirls with an illumination in the middle. And knowing that 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:25.840 it's about a steamboat, you can look at it and 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.840 you can see a steamboat, but it is not a 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:32.360 has no photographic clarity to it. In fact, it's in 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.120 fact it utilizes what is often referred to in art 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:40.200 as non finite intention something that is intentionally unfinished. Um. 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.240 And and sometimes that's like an obvious state of unfinished, 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:45.840 like portions of of a canvas or are not filled in. 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:48.640 But other times it's about the detail, like stuff is 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:53.080 left vague, stuff is left without that level of photographic detail, 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:57.680 because it's more about the the subjective experience of the 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.720 thing as opposed to an objective truth. I like this 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:03.360 Michuel Miguel Nicholales quote you have in here, where he 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:05.800 says all art is a collision of sight and conception 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.680 of reality. You could also say in the same way 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:13.200 that all vision is a collision of external and internal. 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:17.880 I mean vision is part photons but also part psychology exactly. Yeah. 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.760 So this puts an interesting spin on on the the 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:24.720 idea of incompleteness and completeness and what we experience. As 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.840 weasel Tier brought up as well, there's there's no perfect 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.720 objectivity here, there's no view from nowhere. It's all an 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:34.440 amalgam of what comes from inside what comes from outside. Uh. 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:36.160 And in this we kind of get into It reminds 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.600 me a lot of Plato's theory of forms, right that 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:43.000 you have these there's an ideal version of something say, yeah, 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.000 you know, a sculpture of a woman, or a or 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.400 a or a chair or a you know, a governmental system, 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:53.120 whatever your your dream happens to be. There's an ideal 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:55.680 form that exists outside of our reality, and all we 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:57.720 can do is quest after it, but we can never 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.360 quite achieve it, right, all the stuff we've been countered 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:04.119 or imperfect strivings towards that ideal. Right, and if so, 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:08.160 if everything is imperfect, um, if everything falls short of 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.520 the the ideal from the realm reforms, then does it 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:17.320 matter where we stop. It's almost like if whatever you 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:19.760 do is going to be incomplete, like it's better to 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:23.399 try and figure out where is the artful level of incompleteness, 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:26.280 you know, like men, sometimes it's better to be to 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:30.680 keep things vague, right then to to absolutely list everything 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:33.560 that you know and therefore list the things that you don't, 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:35.800 If that makes sense. Yeah, But I could also see 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.399 how that same embracing of incompleteness could in the wrong 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:43.159 ecology of the mind lead to a sort of nihilism, 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:45.479 where well, what does it matter finishing anything? What does 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:52.359 it matter attaining goals? Now, from a neuroscientific point, Nicola 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:53.960 Lists said he want on to point out that the 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:56.720 brain and all of this is not a passive decoder, 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.480 of course obviously, Yeah, that that is an obsolete view 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:04.160 the brain as a quote, self adapting complex system, and 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.080 this is all built atop physics, of course. But but 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:09.280 he pointed out that you know, he he connects brains 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:12.959 to machines for a living. That's that's pretty much an 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.639 exact quote on that. Uh. And there's a there's a 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.679 tendency to discredit the unique aspects of human consciousness in 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:21.520 all of this. So if you try and work with 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.880 the brain as if it's a digital computer, it doesn't work. Well. 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:28.159 You have here is a probabilistic turing machine, a hyper 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:32.159 computer that's an order above digital computers or normal touring 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.320 machine that relates to some to something we talked about 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:38.760 in our P versus NP episode with probabilistic machines versus 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:44.760 deterministic machines all all of our computers today or deterministic machines. Yeah, 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:48.439 And so as such, any experience of beauty, it all 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:52.080 depends on experience as a As Nicolas points out, a 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:55.200 functional brain involves exchanges at various levels. So there's no truth, 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.040 there's only this just this best approximation of the truth 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.119 that our minds can make. So even our mind states 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.480 are ever changing, ever evolving, and of course ever incomplete, 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.760 and therefore it makes perfect sense that that incompleteness is 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:11.399 sometimes part of the design, as in these incomplete works 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:13.159 of art. Well, let's take a look at some of 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:16.439 these incomplete works of art. So there are obviously a 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.160 lot of different reasons that you could have a work 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:21.439 of art that isn't finished. I mean, we're we're talking 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:26.439 here about this nonfinite technique where it's intentionally sort of 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:30.199 left unfinished in order to convey something. But there's a 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:33.679 lot of accidental unfinished nous too, right, Yeah, And some 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:35.320 of these are pretty obvious like that, Like you can 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:37.840 easily imagine, oh, well, if this work was incomplete at 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:39.960 the time of the artist's death, and that happens a lot. 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:42.040 They just don't get around to finishing it and it 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.320 never gets done. Um. But then other times that's they 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.439 abandon it. It was just kind of a sketch to 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:51.479 begin with, Maybe they never intended to finish it. Other times, 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:55.800 especially with with with with portraits, Uh, there's a financial 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:59.880 disagreement with a patron, there's a political disagreement, personal issuing 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.639 in about that mole on my lip, yeah, or you know, 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:08.000 or or illness or death ends up taking the patron 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:09.760 or at least the subject of the painting out of 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:13.080 the picture and just can't picture it finish it. Um. 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:14.639 And it was one of the interesting things in that 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.680 the exhibit, too, is just how often you sel patron 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.240 problems with with artists that would go on to just 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:24.520 be too you know, complete famous names like you wouldn't 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.720 think of this individual ever having a situation where their 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:30.800 painting is rejected like two or three times by the patron, 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.320 But but it occurs. I believe that that in particular, 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.320 there was one by Gustaf Clint uh and uh and 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:39.680 you just you don't think about someone saying, I don't know, 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.040 goof staff, this just doesn't look great. Can you take 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:44.560 another another crack at it and then get back to me. 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:47.000 All of our listeners out there, you who are graphic 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:50.200 designers and have this frustrating experience over an over, that's 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:53.280 not what I want. Yah, take comfort in this, Yeah, 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:56.280 in the company of Clint. Yeah. No matter how how 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:59.760 skilled you are during your life, you're gonna be You're 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.240 gonna have your your work returned multiple times. It's only 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:06.359 after you've you've died that everyone will take every little 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:08.119 scrap of paper that you did a doodle on and 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:11.879 start selling it. Now, one of the examples you included 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:15.360 here in our outline for for this is really interesting. 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:17.600 I was not familiar with this painting, but I think 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:22.400 it is gorgeous and awesome. I love it. Yeah, Okay, 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.399 So the painting and question is the Puniment Punishment of 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:29.800 Marcia's also known as the Flaying of Marcillas by Italian 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:33.800 Late Renaissance artist Titian. And I had seen this one 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:36.520 before because it's grizzly, and that tends to be my 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:39.679 main entry point into classic words of art is if 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.320 they're violent and weird. And this one has like a 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:46.399 number of of fauns and staters standing around, and so 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:49.480 somebody being there's in they're inverted and they're being flayed alive. 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:53.320 So Marcias is actually a sadder, right, He supposed to 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:56.600 be like a fawn kind of creature who who gets 0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:59.600 into a he has he has beef with Apollo, right, Yeah, 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:03.040