WEBVTT - Clay Talks With Bruce Pearl 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.160 Welcome in Wins and Losses. I am Clay Travis, and 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:05.880 we have a fantastic guest, a guy I have been 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:07.680 a fan of. I'm gonna be straight up right at 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:12.160 the top. Auburn men's basketball coach Bruce Pearl is with us, 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:16.120 and coach you are down right now at the Final 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.239 four in New Orleans, and you know these wins and 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:21.599 lost his conversations. The hope is that people are going 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:23.840 to enjoy them for a long time to come. But 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:26.520 just kind of setting in context here, and so I'll 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:29.720 start with this question. What does it feel like to 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:32.640 go to the final four? What does it feel like 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.559 to almost go to the final four? What is the 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:39.519 experience like to coach in the n C Double A tournament? 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:42.640 And how long does it take when you either win 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:45.199 or lose in the n C Double A tournament to 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:47.839 get over the experience? If that makes sense to kind 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:50.879 of start with contextually. Hey, Clay, if this is the 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:53.559 first question, right, we're gonna need more than an hour 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:58.400 because and I think the wins and lost this thing. 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:01.319 When you bring Bruce Pearl on the show, you get 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:03.400 all that. You get the winnars and the losses, which 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:08.400 I think it's really really good. Um. You it's it's 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:11.280 completely different. First of all, the Final Four is the 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:16.000 National Association of Basketball Coaches UM meetings. It's our annual meeting. 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:18.920 So when you're not playing in the Final Four, you're 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:22.679 basically hob nobbing with your fellow wizards, uh, catching up 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:26.959 on how bad the officiating was, all your long rule changes, UH, 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:31.320 you know, eating too much um and uh and and 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:34.480 and and you know, kind of celebrating your seasons, having meetings, 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:37.280 you know, looking at you know, uh, the different apparel 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:39.679 and the different equipment and all the different things that 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:44.200 out there, things that you would do at conventions. UM. 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:48.400 If you're in it, UM, you're on a magical carpet ride, 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:52.880 and you're wondering how in the world did a bum 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:56.400 like me get to be on a stage like this 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.720 and be playing for a national championship. And you you 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:02.760 just stop and thank God and for the thanks for 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.680 the blessing and and um, and you just hope that 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:08.600 you are up to the task to help your team 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:12.919 win a national championship. And then when you don't get here, 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.919 but you almost got here and maybe should have could 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:20.440 have gotten here, UM, you replay every play, every call 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.000 every preparation. I should have done this, I could have 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.280 done that. If we did this, we could possibly be 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:29.960 still playing. But I think when you do that, that's 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:33.040 how you get better. Um, because you know, I'm not 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:36.160 gonna sit still. I'm gonna I'm gonna reload. I'm gonna 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:39.520 rebuild and I'm going to grow as a coach because 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:41.320 I want to I want to get back here and 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:44.520 I want to win one. So I got so many 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:46.960 things that I want to dive into, but I just 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:50.919 want to start with your career. You mentioned how fortunate 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:53.079 you feel to make it to a Final four, which 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:55.640 you did with Auburn. You were close a lot of 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.520 times with Tennessee. But when you were coaching at Southern 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:02.840 Indiana and I think you started off at Stanford and 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:05.600 then you were at Iowa and you're grinding and you're 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:09.800 working as hard as you can. Um, sometimes you don't 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.000 ever I'm curious, when you're at Southern Indiana and you're 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:16.119 a coach and you win a national championship there, did 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:19.120 you ever think were there times where you thought, man, 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:21.960 I'm never going to get that big job. Because the 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:24.519 reasonly we talk wins and losses and why I love 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:29.120 the concept of this discussion. Coaches. There's so much focus 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:33.000 and you know this on success. You have success, people 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.080 want to hear about how amazing it is, what does 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:38.840 it feel like? But I feel like you oftentimes learn 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:42.160 more from the losses along the way. And I've talked 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:43.920 about things that have gone in my career that I 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.040 didn't anticipate. I'm sure you have had, like you said, 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.560 so many different ones. When you are coaching at Southern 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.640 Indiana and you turn on the television and March Madness 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:55.920 is on and you see a coach k or you 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:58.200 see you Roy Williams, and you see guys who have 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:01.040 been doing it for a long time. Did you feel 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.640 I've told this story before, coach where I remember going 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:07.360 to Triple A baseball uh and watching a game and 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:10.480 this is probably fifteen years ago or so for me 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.600 now maybe ten where I thought, Man, I'm in Triple 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:16.679 A in my career. Right now, it seems so close 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:19.080 to get to the major leagues. I can see a path, 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:21.400 but I don't know if I'll ever get that opportunity. 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:24.200 Do you ever have those thoughts along the way as 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:27.240 you climbed yourself up towards a guy who could coach 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:32.799 in the n C Double A Tournament. Yes and no. Um, 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:36.400 here's this is what comes to my mind when you're 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.360 asking that question. When you and when you were in 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:43.760 Nashville and you were doing sports talk radio in the afternoon, Um, 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:47.800 you were trying to be the absolute best show in 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:51.520 that region, uh, for those three hours. And I don't 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:55.120 think you were too terribly worried about anything other than 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:58.080 being the best at what you were doing at that time. 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:01.520 And one of the things me has helped make me 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:05.960 successful every place I've been, I bought. I was all in. 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:10.520 I wasn't leasing, I wasn't renting, I wasn't one foot 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.479 in and one foot out looking for the next best thing. 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:17.440 And I think so many times people in life, especially 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.599 in their early stages, it's okay to think big, it's 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:24.920 okay to dream, but take advantage of what you got, 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:27.480 what's right there in front of you, and do an 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:32.520 amazing job and put yourself in position for other opportunities 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:36.640 to present itself. So. Um, the reason why I won 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.440 championships every place I've been is I treated it like 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:42.719 it was my last job and like I wanted to 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:45.400 be at that place forever. And I truly did. And 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:47.960 when I had to leave because it was time to 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:52.720 leave Division two or go for mid major to Tennessee. Um, yeah, 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:54.760 I got the Ziggie at Tennessee, so that really wasn't 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:58.559 my choice. It was hard to leave. It was hard 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.200 to get in the car and pull out and leave 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:02.960 my wife and my kids and my family to go 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:06.080 to that next best thing because I was bought and 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:08.559 I was all in. And I think so many people 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.640 make the mistake of just not doing a great job 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:14.200 with what they got and get guess what, as a result, 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:16.839 they don't get to move on. They don't get to 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:18.599 do what you've done, they don't get to do what 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.440 I've done. Now, in answer to your crash, you directly, 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:26.440 there was only one day a year, maybe two, when 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:29.360 I ever thought about man. I remember when Tom Iso 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:31.560 and I were assistance. He was at Michigan State and 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.480 I was at Iowa, and Tom's head coach at Michigan State, 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:38.119 and I'm the head coach at Southern Indiana and and 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:40.919 and the only time was on selection of Sunday or 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.240 the first round the answer that tournament. When I was 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.040 in Division two, I'd watch that day and I'd say, 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.400 you know what I want to I do want to 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:51.080 get there. I want to get there and and then 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:53.440 But with the acception of that day, that was the 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:55.800 only day it ever occurred to me to try to 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:59.600 be someplace else. When you were at Boston College, I 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:03.240 think were even the mascot. I remember hearing that story. 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:07.320 When did you decide, Hey, coaching basketball is something I 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:10.240 might like to do. Uh? And when did you start 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:12.360 to think, hey, this is going to be potentially a 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.480 career I'll pursue. Well, it's a long story, but I'm 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:17.560 trying to be brief. So I was a pretty good 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.440 athlete in high school. Uh. I had a career ending 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:23.840 knee injury in high school. Boston College was the best 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.400 athletic program in New England. I grew up in Boston, 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:30.440 and so I went to BC and walked on the 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.440 basketball team and got cut, just got a bad wheel. 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:37.080 But I met Dr Tom davis Um. When I was 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.320 in high school, I was coaching fifth graders, I was umpiron, 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:44.160 I was refereeing, I was always coaching. I was honestly, 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:46.960 never did I think I would ever wasn't trying to 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:50.480 be a coach. I went to BC school management marketing, economics, 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:52.560 political science. I was gonna go out and get a 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:56.200 real job my senior year after working for Tom Davis 0:07:56.240 --> 0:08:00.760 and every capacity possible, including as a manager, an assistant 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:04.200 director of this or that. I hosted Patrick Ewing on 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:06.720 his official visit as a as a as a member 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.560 of the team. UM. Tom Davis called me and he 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:12.520 said come over to the house. And I'm like, oh, Ship, 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:13.920 what I do wrong? Last time I had to come 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:16.840 over the house, I got caught streaking across campus and 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:18.440 he found out about it and he saved me to 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:21.960 the students and I'm like, well, I haven't straight across 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.600 campus in years. And sure enough, I'm driving to his 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:26.360 house and oh my god, he's leaving to take a 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:28.720 job and he's gonna ask me to go with him. 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:31.240 And sure enough, Clay, that's what he did. I was 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:35.880 a senior BC in March, graduating in June, and I 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:38.679 went to Stanford to Tom Davis as an assistant coach. 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:41.160 And not one day that I worked for him because 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:43.040 I wanted to be thought i'd be a basketball coach. 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:46.160 Not at all. I just love BC. I love BC basketball. 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.120 I loved what I was doing and and little did 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:53.000 I know that my entire life. I've been coaching when 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:55.280 I was playing, I was coaching when I was when 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:57.840 I was playing, I was coaching little kids. So just 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.400 something I always do, I always had done. That was 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:02.719 God's plan. I just didn't know it to the day 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:04.600 to the day I walked in his house and the 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:07.199 next day he and I were on plane to Stanford. 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:09.720 All right, that's an amazing story, But I gotta go back. 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:12.920 What were you streaking across campus four? Did you lose 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.760 a bet? Was it part of it? How did that happen? 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:17.600 That's that was back in the day. That's what we did. 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:20.080 That's just what we did. We got naked. We ran 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:23.920 across like I did it three times, once school cafeteria, 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:28.000 middle school, once uh the prom and then and then 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:31.720 and then once at at BC. We actually we actually 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.200 got in the car, uh and we went to the BC, 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:36.400 went to we had there was a football game at 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:39.040 Holy Cross out in Worcester, and UH me and a 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.200 bunch of our buddies we got in the car with 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.160 a lot to drink and uh locked our clothes in 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.880 the trunk and drove to West naked and and just 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:49.839 you know, just like who had the balls to actually 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:51.760 get out of the car. You know, who was going 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:54.360 to give him the key? You know? And and and 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:57.240 and I don't remember a lot about that trip other 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.079 than thank god we didn't get arrested. In my parents 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:00.920 never found out about it. You know what's funny, as 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:03.760 I'll confess to this too. Uh Uh. When I was 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.280 in college, I had a bet with one of my 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:11.240 buddies who was a Baltimore Ravens fan. Um and uh 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:13.559 and I was a Tennessee Titan fan growing up in Nashville. 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:17.959 And uh we bet whoever was gonna win a playoff game. 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:21.320 Titans had a playoff game against the Baltimore Ravens. They lost, 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:23.280 of course, because they always lose every playoff game. It 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:26.280 feels like that matters just about and uh, I had 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:29.280 to do a streak around. I went to George Washington 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.199 in d C. So I had to streak around d C. 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:33.320 And what it was funny about that, Um, First off, 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:35.240 I didn't get arrested, but I think it would have 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:37.920 been a federal offense because you're you're in the District 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:41.679 of Columbia and uh and coach I remember um and 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:45.400 our freshman year dorm. Uh. The Secret Service raided the 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:48.080 dorm because a kid was making fake I d s. 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:50.480 And it was a federal offense because you're in the 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:52.760 district of Columbia, right, so you know a lot of 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:55.560 kids know about you know, you're seventeen, eighteen years old whatever. 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:56.959 In a college campus, you want to be able to 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.400 get buy a beer, go into a bar, and so 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:01.720 fake I d are common. And this kid, uh in 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.720 the in down the hall one of the freshman dorms. Yeah, 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:07.480 they the Secret Service raided his dorm because he was 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:09.760 making these fake I d s. But so you go, 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:14.000 it was that the w Admission's office is promoting very 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:21.440 much coming wa get a federal offense. Yeah, no kidding. Uh, 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:24.000 by the way, so was the culture. So for me, 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:26.160 I grew up in Nashville, and there was a big 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:28.600 culture shock for me going to GW because it was 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.640 a very Northeastern school and I grew up in the 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:33.800 South and it was more brusque. I think it was 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.760 great for me because people were tougher, harder edge, thicker skin. 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.040 It was good for me at eighteen or nineteen years 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.000 old to get used to that in a way maybe 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:43.600 that it wouldn't have for my career. Was it a 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:47.040 culture shock for you to go from Boston to Stanford, 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.880 like to take that job, or because Palo Alto is amazing. 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:53.520 But I have to think that Boston and Palo Alto 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:56.480 were not that similar, at least for you as a 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.680 kid growing up in the in the Northeast. Now it 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:03.320 was very different. Uh you know, growing up in Boston. Um, 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.920 he was born in nineteen sixty. Um. I lived through 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:11.679 the era of force bussing. Um saw it, saw real racism, 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:17.400 saw real racial tension, real white on black fights. Uh, 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:23.560 tremendous anti semitism. Um, that stuff all mattered. Um. And 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:27.240 while there was some amazingly wonderful ethnic neighborhoods in Boston, 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:31.240 the Italian North End, the Irish South Boston, the Jewish 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:35.720 quarter of Mattapan, Dorchester, Blue Hill Avenue, Um, there was 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:40.320 a lot of uh, a lot of identity. Um that 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.120 that wound up creating a lot of conflict. And as 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:47.040 a coach and team builder, UM it bothered me to 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:51.560 my core. Um the and when we play sports and 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.240 we go to playground, it's shirts and skins. I don't 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.920 give a rats ask what color you are? Can you rebound? 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.040 Can you make a shot? UM, I don't care a 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:02.439 you got a temple or church or if you don't, 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.720 you know, can you guard somebody? And and and we 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:09.480 play as kids and and and we're not we're not 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:13.560 identifying each other that way. And but our parents and 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:18.120 our grandparents maybe are or were and and so I 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.640 was so glad I grew up in Boston to see 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:24.000 the greatness of the ethnicity, but the damage that it 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:27.600 could do as it relates to the relationships. Then the 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.400 second thing answered to your question, So I grew up 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.520 at Kennedy Democrat. You know, um, you know the Kennedy 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.559 family you up in in Boston at that time. I mean, 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:38.120 it was just like, oh, my god, that you know 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:40.959 and and and and so much. They were heroes, absolutely 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:45.080 heroes and and and and and why not? Um? And 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:49.040 then as I drove across the country on my slash 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:53.240 honeymoon and also my what, I drove out there to 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.720 start working at Stanford. Um. And I was always a 0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:01.239 Boston Globe reader. Um. I began to pick up newspapers. 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.560 Back in the day, the newspapers used to report things, 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:07.040 and if you wanted an opinion, you picked up the 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.320 back of the page and read the editorial and you 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.200 found out what the opinions were. And Clay, what I 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:17.960 what I came to know then, back in extreme two, 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:20.960 when I traveled across the country, is that the same 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:24.280 story that would be written in the Braston Grobe would 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:29.320 be a completely different story in the Indianapolis Star and 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:34.920 the Davoine Register and the l A Times. It blew 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:39.600 me away and I came to realize then the incredible 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:44.840 power of the media and how the media could absolutely control, 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:50.400 I say control, not influence the minds and the makeup 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:54.040 of the readers. And I and it's scared to crap 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:58.280 out of me. And then of course I went out 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:02.720 west and and you know, and and I see the 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.360 good in everybody, Clay, I do. I see the good. 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.880 I saw greatness Huthern, California, things that I loved, and 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:13.880 most of it was the weather, um and um and yeah. 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:16.640 And then through coaching, I was able to get into 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:20.600 the Midwest and the South, and I've I've seen this great, great, 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:24.600 great country of ours and um. Yeah, but it's amazing 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:28.520 where you live, um, and what you read or what 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.440 you watch or listen to has not an awful lot 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:34.800 to who you are and what you believe. Yeah, I'm curious, 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:36.320 by the way, now that you mentioned it, what was 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.440 it like to be a Jewish kid going to Boston College, 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:43.920 a you know, Catholic Jesuit school. Did that feel incongruous 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.320 to you or did you feel comfortable there despite obviously 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:49.440 a religious difference. I don't know what the vibe is 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:51.720 like at Boston College or what it would have been 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:54.040 like for you from seventy eight to eighty two in 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.520 the time that you would have been there. Yep, Claire, 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:58.480 I went to BC for a reason. I went to 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:04.040 BC just for exactly that reason. Um. You know, there 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:09.600 are stereotypes and there are perceptions. Um, there aren't a 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:13.880 tremendous number of Jewish athletes out there that would be 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.360 a stereotype. Could it be factually true, I don't know. 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.120 But the perception of a Jewish man would be, you know, 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:20.880 you're gonna be a doctor, or you're gonna be a lawyer. 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:22.400 You I mean in real estate, you're gonna be smart, 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.800 You're gonna make money. Whatever that stereotype or perception you 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:30.200 necessarily would be. It wouldn't necessarily be digging ditches or 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:34.320 being an athlete. Against all stereotypes, and I came to 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:39.400 I came to understand that I could change that, that 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.240 I could go to Boston College with with with a 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:46.040 very large Catholic population, and they can see me pray, 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:48.440 they could see me sweat, they could see me work, 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:50.760 and if they want to put up if they wanted 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:52.520 to fight me, because I had to fight a lot 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:55.520 when I grew up for being Jewish. I didn't tell 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.800 them I was Jewish. I told him I was Israeli. 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:01.120 And then I asked them if they wanted to go, 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:07.720 like you want to dance, I'm Israeli. Let's dance with 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.600 the idea being that Israeli people were thought to be tougher. 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.320 Is that is that what you were thinking? Damn, damn right, 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:19.040 damn straight and and yes, and and that's what I wore, 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:23.040 you know, that was my armor, that was my courage, 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:27.840 that was my I could look to Israeli leaders for strength, 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:33.840 and I did as a as a young Jewish boy. Um, 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:37.360 and you know what all it all it was, Clay 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:41.479 was getting to know each other, overcoming you know, the 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:45.760 ignorance of never really having a Jewish friend, or never 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:49.360 really having a black friend, or and and and and 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:53.560 so my life has been through sports. And it started 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:56.919 at a very young age, saying, dude, we are we 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:02.199 are brothers Abraham, the father of all nations. We are 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.680 brothers from another mother, But our father is the same. 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:08.760 He's the same guy that that that brings us together. 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.280 I tell people all the time when as as I've 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:16.760 never been more religiously comfortable anywhere in my life than 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:23.720 in the South, nowhere among among evangelical Christians. Um. Because 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.080 when you go to services there, they read from the 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:29.959 Old Testament. They talk about Jesus being a rabbi and 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.920 being a Jew. And when I hear that as a 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.119 coach and as a as someone that whose whole life 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:39.080 is about bringing people together, I'm saying, there it is 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:44.000 Jesus brings us together. He doesn't separate us. My whole 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.080 life growing up Jewish, that was a separator. They believe 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:49.920 Jesus was a son of God, we don't. They believe 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:53.399 he was the Messiah, we don't. There's the line the sand, 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.639 that's the bloodline. It's drawn, and if you live on 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:58.919 this side or that side, we're willing to go to 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:03.560 war over it. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:09.640 Their God, their number one guy. They're dude, the greatest 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:12.080 guy to ever walked the face of the earth. Jesus 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:19.720 was Jewish, He celebrated Passover, he celebrated that he walked 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:24.520 to Israel to Jerusalem how many times a year to 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:30.359 celebrate the new year. Russia sean key, poor dude. That 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:32.720 that connects us. Whether you don't think so or not, 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:35.320 I do. It's right there in the history books. And 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:39.959 then that's who I have sort of become. Can't we 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:43.720 look at the things that we have more in common 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:50.359 than the things that separate us. It's such a there's 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:56.000 so much to unpack there. Did you early on recognize 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:59.200 because that's really what you have to do as a coach, right. 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:02.199 The coach job is to bring people who may have 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:07.640 tremendous differences into a cohesive whole. Much of what goes 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:10.600 on in the country today is the opposite of that. Right, 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.560 You appeal to a certain segment of the population in 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:17.200 the hopes that you can motivate that group to support 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:20.240 you going up against somebody else. Now that obviously your 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:22.439 team in some level is going to have to go 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:26.080 up against other teams. But when you go to southern Indiana, 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:28.919 you've been at Stanford. You've been at Iowa, You've been 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:32.280 an assistant coach. How did you end up there? And 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.240 what was the experience like to go from being an 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:38.760 assistant coach to being a head coach? How much did 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:40.680 you have to learn? And I'll give you an analogy 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:44.320 here that I love UM that I think you'll appreciate um. 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:47.480 Back in the day, I remember hearing a great story 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:50.120 from Norm Chow and I think it's a great metaphor 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:54.119 larger universe for people as they engage in a new job. 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:56.480 When he became a head coach for the first time, 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:59.080 and I think it was at Hawaii, he was standing 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.560 on the sideline clock was running down and he thought 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.680 to himself, boy, somebody really should call a time out, 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:09.520 you know. And then he thought, wait a minute, I'm 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:11.200 a guy. I've got to call the time out. I'm 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:14.160 the head coach. He had come from being an offensive coordinator, 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.640 where you watch somebody else have to make the call, 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:20.280 right like you can be in the headset saying, boy, 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:23.000 somebody should call a time out. But he was thinking 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:25.359 to himself as he watched the clock, boy, somebody should 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:27.199 call it time out. And then he thought immediately like 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:29.919 early in his coaching career. You're the headman. You know 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:33.080 he's still aligned from Harry Trueman. The buck stops with me. 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.680 I suddenly have to make that call. What is it 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:39.320 like to go from an assistant as you work your 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:42.440 way up, grinding no telling how many hours, to suddenly 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:44.640 being the guy who has to call that time out, 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:46.720 who has to make that decision. How did you find 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:51.560