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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and this is next Question today,

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Speaker 1: part two of our Long COVID Deep Dive. If you

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Speaker 1: haven't listened to part one yet, you should start there.

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Speaker 1: It's right there in your feed. In part one, we

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Speaker 1: left off with the stories of Shamir L. Smith and

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Speaker 1: Deepest Sing Too long COVID patients whose symptoms and experiences

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Speaker 1: in their own bodies were being dismissed by doctors and

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Speaker 1: hospital staff. Often was told that I wasn't well in

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Speaker 1: my head, I was too anxious. I was starting to

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Speaker 1: believe that the providers who are telling you was psychosomatic

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Speaker 1: and it was anxiety driven. I truly felt like, Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm having a mental break. Unfortunately, these experiences are not unique.

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Speaker 1: I think it's been an absolute nightmare for most people.

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Speaker 1: Diana Barron is the founder of Survivor Corps, a grassroots

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Speaker 1: COVID patient advocacy group that has shifted its focus to

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Speaker 1: long COVID. Survivor Core has about one hundred and eighty

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Speaker 1: thousand members, and Diana says she's heard these stories of

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Speaker 1: time and time again. It became in just like other

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Speaker 1: chronic diseases, almost a modern day diagnosis of female hysteria

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Speaker 1: where patients were going to doctors and being gas lit

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Speaker 1: and being told that they had anxiety when they were

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Speaker 1: actually having tachiccardia, which needs a cardiologist, not a psychologist.

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Speaker 1: And yes, people are anxious. I'm sorry. If you're not

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Speaker 1: anxious in today's day and age, then you're not paying attention.

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Speaker 1: But this isn't just anxiety. This is, you know, debilitating

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Speaker 1: physical distress. Most people think that they are losing their minds.

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Speaker 1: They might have survived, but they are dying a slow death.

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Speaker 1: People come in good faith to try to seek help.

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Speaker 1: They encounter a health care system that's still prepared to

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Speaker 1: help them again. Dr Harlan Crumholtz, a Yield cardiologist and

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Speaker 1: long COVID researcher. Without objective measures of the illness, it

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Speaker 1: becomes easy for professionals to dismiss them and to doubt

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Speaker 1: even their existence beyond in someone's mind. And when I

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Speaker 1: say that is it's sort of a lack of respect

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Speaker 1: for what people tell us. It's sort of uh skepticism

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Speaker 1: about people who are reporting these kind of symptoms. So

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Speaker 1: many of these people, when they interact with the health

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Speaker 1: care system, are seeing people who are who are skeptical

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Speaker 1: that this is real. It's real, but we don't understand

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Speaker 1: what it is. And when when things don't meet the

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Speaker 1: patterns that we're used to seeing. We're trained as pattern

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Speaker 1: recognition professionals, as doctors. I mean, that's how we diagnose

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Speaker 1: what's this pattern. And we're bringing together multiple pieces of information,

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Speaker 1: what you're telling us, what the lab tests are saying.

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Speaker 1: But when we lack the lab tests, we lack imaging tests,

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Speaker 1: we lack other measures of of what's going on. Then

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Speaker 1: when we're left with what people are telling us, and

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Speaker 1: right now with the health care system, its reaction to

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Speaker 1: that is to be dismissive largely, and so we need

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Speaker 1: to fight against that impulse and we need to figure

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Speaker 1: out quickly what can we do to really understand what's

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Speaker 1: going on. We have to trust people, we have to

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Speaker 1: listen to them intently, and we have to try to

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Speaker 1: appreciate what it is that they're going through and and

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Speaker 1: have be a call to action for us, not just

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Speaker 1: something to dismiss, because there there is a lot of suffering. Thankfully,

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Speaker 1: for me, last year May um which was also ironically

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Speaker 1: my birthday, UM, I got a wonderful chance, a marvelous

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Speaker 1: chance that I don't take for granted. Tremir struggle to

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Speaker 1: find help for more than a year, but her persistence

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Speaker 1: eventually paid off and I met a wonderful Dr Lauren A.

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Speaker 1: Bobbio who changed my life. She is a black woman,

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Speaker 1: a young black woman who's just starting out her medical

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Speaker 1: career and UM. She was the very first doctor that

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Speaker 1: I met who said, Shamir, I believe you and UM.

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Speaker 1: I still get emotional about it today because it meant

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Speaker 1: it meant so much for me UM and so much

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Speaker 1: to me UM. Not only did it mean that I

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Speaker 1: was going to be able to develop a healthy relationship

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Speaker 1: UM with a with a doctor, but it it meant

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Speaker 1: that she was actually taking notes. I could see her

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Speaker 1: as she was typing, listening to me, UM, typing notes

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Speaker 1: about my condition. She was the very first doctor who

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Speaker 1: wrote a letter, a very uh sound letter to address

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Speaker 1: to my my employer, to let them know that I

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Speaker 1: was simply unable to work. And here with the reasons

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Speaker 1: why I believe that her affirming me and validating my

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Speaker 1: condition is also the reason why I luckily have been

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Speaker 1: able to UM be accepted. My claims for disability have

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Speaker 1: been able to be accepted. Had I not met her,

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Speaker 1: had I not fought so hard to reach her and

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Speaker 1: to get a doctor like her, had I not fired

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Speaker 1: all of the other doctors that I had to get

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Speaker 1: to her, I may not be able to celebrate that today.

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Speaker 1: That's a that's a huge win to me after experiencing

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Speaker 1: such such devastation in my life. I fell ill in February,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't until August twenty through tele medicine that

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Speaker 1: I found a provider who introduced me to the term

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Speaker 1: long color again. Deeple was just twenty eight years old

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Speaker 1: when she started seeking answers for her long COVID symptoms.

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Speaker 1: She listened to my symptoms. She ordered panels and tests,

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Speaker 1: and I had a follow up a point now with

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Speaker 1: her to go over the results, listening to the symptoms

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Speaker 1: I was having, looking at the blood work UH and

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Speaker 1: the antibody result, and also comparing this to what she

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Speaker 1: was seeing in other patients. She introduced me to this

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Speaker 1: term long collar and asked if i'd heard of it before.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't. She explained that some folks were experiencing lingering

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Speaker 1: problems from their COVID infection, and I had an inkling already.

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Speaker 1: That's what was happening, but it was good to finally

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Speaker 1: I feel like for the first time that year, I

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Speaker 1: wasn't losing my mind. When that doctor I think she's

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Speaker 1: located in Florida, who met with me through an app

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Speaker 1: on my phone introduced me to long Collar, I felt like, metaphorically,

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Speaker 1: of course, not literally, metaphorically, I could breathe again. My

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Speaker 1: medical journey and experiences are unacceptable. I have gotten more

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Speaker 1: acknowledgement validation from providers now than I did two years ago,

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Speaker 1: but nowhere near where it should be. You shouldn't walk

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Speaker 1: out with absolutely no answers, in tears, feeling more frustrated,

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Speaker 1: like you had yet another dead end. I still walk

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Speaker 1: into some provider appointments and walk back out with that experience.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, I have had a couple of

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Speaker 1: acquaintments recently where at the very least provider acknowledged I

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Speaker 1: know what wonkin of it is and I'm so sorry

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Speaker 1: you're dealing with that. So validation. That's the progress that

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Speaker 1: I've made in two years, and if if we're calling

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Speaker 1: that progress, I think that indicates much larger problems at hand.

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Speaker 1: The very last time I was turned away from the hospital,

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Speaker 1: I said to myself, if this is happening to me,

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Speaker 1: this type of dismissal is happening to my students, students

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Speaker 1: who I know live in nuclear houses and families, Students

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Speaker 1: who are always around their grandparents, their aunties, their cousins,

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Speaker 1: Students who can't articulate their symptoms or why they feel

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Speaker 1: like that. And I did not want them to to

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Speaker 1: face what I faced. So I thought to myself every day,

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Speaker 1: if I wasn't going to die, and that must mean

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Speaker 1: that I'm supposed to do something to help myself and

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Speaker 1: someone else live. And I just slowly started to email

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Speaker 1: anybody who would listen. I started to email JOHNS. Hopkins

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Speaker 1: Patient Engagement Services. I emailed city councilmen and women in

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Speaker 1: Baltimore City, emailed state delegates. I even email doctors who

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Speaker 1: at Hopkins were writing h journals and writing uh small

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Speaker 1: articles about COVID because I wanted to know, um what

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Speaker 1: I could do to help treat myself and pass the

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Speaker 1: information onto other people. While Shamir is still unable to

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Speaker 1: return to the classroom to teach full time, she has

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Speaker 1: transformed her experience into patient advocacy. She's a member of

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Speaker 1: multiple long COVID groups and is on the board of

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Speaker 1: Body Politic, a COVID nineteen support collective. She offers advice

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Speaker 1: to fellow law COVID patients and is often invited to

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Speaker 1: speak on their behalf. I just want to make sure

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Speaker 1: that I saved myself, and I want to make sure

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Speaker 1: I save those other people in my community. And when

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Speaker 1: I say other people, I mean other black people who

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Speaker 1: are poor, who are disenfranchised, who don't have the same

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Speaker 1: health care access, and who don't have the same financial

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Speaker 1: means as other people. I testified before Congress on Thursday,

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Speaker 1: April two thousand twenty one, and the purpose of that

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Speaker 1: congressional hearing was to talk to researchers and doctors about COVID,

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Speaker 1: but to also hear about the patient experience. It's been

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Speaker 1: the generosity of my family and my friends and those

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Speaker 1: who support my advocacy that I was even able to

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Speaker 1: live for the past two years, and so I wanted

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Speaker 1: Congress to know how serious I was about my station

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Speaker 1: in life. I was very moved by the fact that

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Speaker 1: many of those congressional leaders admitted that they two new

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Speaker 1: people who experienced and were experiencing long COVID. However, I've

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Speaker 1: been very disappointed nearly a year later, because there hasn't

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Speaker 1: been much movement or action on the behalf of long

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Speaker 1: COVID patients. We acknowledged it and then we left it.

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Speaker 1: They are not very many people in power who are

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Speaker 1: standing up for us. What I have seen and what

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Speaker 1: I will continue to champion, is the fact that smaller groups,

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Speaker 1: smaller organizations, grass root organizations, have been at the helm

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Speaker 1: of informing us about long cod and body politic alone

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Speaker 1: has informed so many people with their platform. It's been

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Speaker 1: groups like m E Action, which is a group about

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Speaker 1: you know, UM M E and chronic fatigue syndrome and

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Speaker 1: um other chronic illness groups that have helped to inform

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Speaker 1: long COVID patients. It hasn't been many politicians. It hasn't

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Speaker 1: been our president, It hasn't been the people that we

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Speaker 1: entrust with that kind of power. It's been the smaller groups,

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Speaker 1: the the everyman, the average woman, the average man that

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Speaker 1: has reached out their hands to help us. And so

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Speaker 1: that's who have led us down this road of information.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't the people in power. When we come back,

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Speaker 1: I tracked down some of those people in power again.

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Speaker 1: Our long COVID cohort deepest Sing, Rebecca Hogan, Liza Fisher,

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Speaker 1: Jack Guest, Shamir L. Smith, and Janine Hayes as far

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Speaker 1: as with a long COVID community needs from the paris

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Speaker 1: that be in this in my opinion, First, we need

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Speaker 1: financial support. I've lost everything. We've gone through our savings.

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Speaker 1: We've whittled away everything. I used a lot of that

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Speaker 1: go funding money to pay for Cobra. That money has

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Speaker 1: run out. Is this a forever thing? How long am

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Speaker 1: I going to have the income that supports that? As

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Speaker 1: a teacher, I was saved ten to dollars a year

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Speaker 1: and I lost all of that in the first couple

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Speaker 1: of months of my inn Second is job protection. You

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Speaker 1: know we're still people. We if we had jobs previously.

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Speaker 1: We need to know that our jobs will still be

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Speaker 1: available to us. When we were checking, I worked UM

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Speaker 1: at one of the top management consulting firms I was.

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Speaker 1: I was an associate partner there. I never thought I'd

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Speaker 1: be out more than two weeks UM and now you know,

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Speaker 1: we're going on thirteen months and I have not stepped

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Speaker 1: foot in my classroom for almost two years. I went

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Speaker 1: to nursing school to help other people, but also to

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Speaker 1: give my family a different life, financial security. There was

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Speaker 1: a structure, it was good, it was good, and it

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Speaker 1: was all snatched from us. Third, it's communication. Now we

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Speaker 1: we're seeing these big vaccine campaigns. We know that communication

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Speaker 1: at a large scale candy set up and delivered upon

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Speaker 1: quickly and efficiently. Why are we not talking about long

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Speaker 1: COVID at that same level. That is completely unacceptable in

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Speaker 1: putting people in harm's way. There are people at our

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Speaker 1: scale don't know about long COVID. They don't or if

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Speaker 1: they have heard of it, they don't know exactly how

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Speaker 1: detrimental it can be. If the information isn't out there,

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Speaker 1: then you don't know when you're like lost in this situation.

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Speaker 1: There is not enough information, data statistics that capture the

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Speaker 1: amount of fipock women and families who have had long

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Speaker 1: COVID who are experiencing it. Now, how can I go

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Speaker 1: anywhere to inform anybody in my community about what to

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Speaker 1: look for, how to take care of themselves, mental health resources,

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Speaker 1: long COVID plants. If we don't know who's being affected,

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Speaker 1: it's like being a teacher with no lesson plan. If

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Speaker 1: I have no lesson plan, I can't teach. And everybody

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Speaker 1: here in this community, just like in other communities, deserve

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Speaker 1: the right to have a COVID and along COVID lesson plan.

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Speaker 1: We don't think about how difficult to navigate the health

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Speaker 1: care system is. Like I'm a nurse. I'm a nurse

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Speaker 1: with a genius like you, and I'm so I'm struggling.

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Speaker 1: I'm dying. I'm struggling so hard to navigate the health

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Speaker 1: care system. And I don't even know what I'm struggling

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Speaker 1: with because like I've got all these appointments and all

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Speaker 1: these doctors, nothing's happening. I don't know what's going on.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. It's like I'm the middleman. I'm the

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Speaker 1: one in the middle coordinating at all. What's the point

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Speaker 1: of that if I need fourteen specialists? Am I really

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Speaker 1: capable of being a middleman? Oh? This whole long COVID

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Speaker 1: journey has exposed some rather ugly troots about our medical

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Speaker 1: system for folks who have chronic conditions and have suffered

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Speaker 1: for decades in some cases, without attention, without acknowledgment. Now

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Speaker 1: we're dealing with something on a tremendously large scale. I

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Speaker 1: hope someone is taking note that the amount of people

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Speaker 1: being affected by this will have unforeseen circumstances unless something

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Speaker 1: is done help the people that are sick. We are

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Speaker 1: people who contribute to helping things run. We are people

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Speaker 1: with lives with families. Help us get better. That is

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Speaker 1: why these systems were supposedly in place to protect the people.

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Speaker 1: So protect the people. This community deserves some answers. So

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Speaker 1: I started calling elected officials to convey some of their

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Speaker 1: urgent needs. Are you I'm good. Congressman Don Buyer, a

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Speaker 1: Democrat from my home state of Virginia, was the first

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Speaker 1: to bring long COVID legislation to Congress. This was back

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Speaker 1: in December of He then reintroduced the same bill in

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Speaker 1: April of What motivated you to take the lead on

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Speaker 1: this issue. We were getting lots of feedback from people

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Speaker 1: that I represent in northern Virginia, and we are to

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Speaker 1: pay attention to it because, um, long COVID is so fuzzy,

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Speaker 1: I mean, two hundred different symptoms, really difficult to diagnose,

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Speaker 1: but very real. It reminded me a little bit about

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Speaker 1: where we were with flon disease twenty years ago, where

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Speaker 1: people say, well, that's in your head, um, but we

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Speaker 1: know this isn't in your head. And it was affecting

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Speaker 1: people and really bad ways, like they were getting turned

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Speaker 1: down for disability assurance UM, but at the same time

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Speaker 1: they couldn't really go to work, so then the Employment

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Speaker 1: Commission would say, well, we don't qualify for unemployment. So

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Speaker 1: people are getting a really bad economic situations. And we

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Speaker 1: thought this is also at a time when the country

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Speaker 1: had divided, this would not should not be a partisan issue.

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Speaker 1: The connersman, Jack Bergman, who is a Republican from Michigan,

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Speaker 1: has been my partner on most of these things, which

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Speaker 1: is great because that way we can go forward together.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people in the COVID long COVID community are really frustrated

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Speaker 1: because they feel like, you know, where's our government, why

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Speaker 1: don't people care? And you know, the symptoms can be

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Speaker 1: just terribly debilitating. And I know that the Long Haulers Act,

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Speaker 1: your bill, hasn't really made any progress for almost a year,

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Speaker 1: so a lot of people are out there saying what

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Speaker 1: the heck is going on? Where is Congress and now?

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Speaker 1: And and part of it is I mean, it's sad,

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Speaker 1: but the COVID has greatly restricted our ability to get

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Speaker 1: things done. We had the state of the Union address,

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Speaker 1: and almost everyone was there without a mass because of

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Speaker 1: the new CDC guidelines. So I'm hoping we'll be able

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Speaker 1: to work once longer, harder weeks and get more things done.

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Speaker 1: And this Carly needs to be at at the top

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Speaker 1: of the list. Senator Kane introduced a new long COVID

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Speaker 1: build a Congress. It's called the Comprehensive Access to Resources

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Speaker 1: and Education for Long Covid Act. It's legislation designed to

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Speaker 1: help people living with long term COVID symptoms. Have you

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Speaker 1: had a chance to review this and and any thoughts

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Speaker 1: on that? Yeah? I think it's a great piece of legislation.

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Speaker 1: And what what Senator Kane's legislation does is build on

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Speaker 1: the different iterations of the last two years you've started with.

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Speaker 1: The very morning I interviewed Congressman Buyer, Senator Tim Kane,

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Speaker 1: who himself continues to experience long COVID symptoms, introduce the

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Speaker 1: Care Long Covid Act to Congress. Could this be the

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Speaker 1: boost of adrenaline the long COVID cause needs to get

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Speaker 1: federal help? Is it even enough? Hey Katie, Tim Kane here,

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Speaker 1: Hey Tim Kane here, how are you? I talked with

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Speaker 1: Senator Kane to find out. Tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the Care Long COVID Act and how it's going

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Speaker 1: to help these you know, literally millions of people who

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Speaker 1: are experiencing this, Katie. The first bit of news good

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Speaker 1: news is we got a little bit of a head

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Speaker 1: started in an American rescue plan that we passed um

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Speaker 1: a year ago in Congress because we put funding into

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Speaker 1: that bill for the NIH to do research on long code.

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Speaker 1: So they've they've started the research. But what the what

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Speaker 1: the care skill would do? And I want to thank

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Speaker 1: my principal House sponsors, Don Buyer of Northern Virginia, and

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Speaker 1: my co sponsors and the Senator Tammy Duckworth and ed

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Speaker 1: Market Massachusetts in Illinois. What we will do is basically

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Speaker 1: four things with the bill. First, we will try to

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Speaker 1: really have a good federal database to catalog the kinds

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Speaker 1: of symptoms and complaints that people am our. Public data.

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Speaker 1: Public health data infrastructure in this country was sort of

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Speaker 1: week before COVID that actually hurt us in dealing with COVID.

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Speaker 1: We want to do a very good job of gathering

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Speaker 1: the data about patient experiences. That's number one. Number two

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Speaker 1: with that data and with other studies that that hospital

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Speaker 1: Sloan Sloan Kettering and New York is doing this, and

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Speaker 1: theres are two um we we want to um basically

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Speaker 1: do a deep research into causes and cures. And then

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Speaker 1: the last piece of the bill, sort of the third

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Speaker 1: piece is once we've catalog the concerns and co plaints

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Speaker 1: and we do research and the causes and cures, how

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Speaker 1: can we get that information out to patients and how

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Speaker 1: can we get that information out to providers, Because again,

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Speaker 1: we don't want somebody who is experiencing this to go

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Speaker 1: in to a provider and be told, oh, well, you know, um,

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Speaker 1: it might be anxiety, might be depression. It's been a

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Speaker 1: tough time a lot of people were doing with tough issues.

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Speaker 1: We we really want to communicate all these best practices

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Speaker 1: and the research to the provider community and also the patients.

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Speaker 1: The more information, maybe you reduce the uncertainty a little

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Speaker 1: bit and that might help people deal with this. You know,

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Speaker 1: if I was experiencing severe long COVID symptoms, I might

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Speaker 1: listen to this and want to pull my hair out

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Speaker 1: because it's sounds like we need to study and really

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Speaker 1: gather data, etcetera, etcetera. And I might be saying Hey,

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Speaker 1: I love you, Senator came, but I need relief now.

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Speaker 1: And this hasn't even happened. This bill hasn't passed, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm desperate. So, um, are there more immediate

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Speaker 1: things that can be done? A lot of the patients

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Speaker 1: we talked to said they really need financial help and

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Speaker 1: some kind of job security. And I don't know whether

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Speaker 1: there's uh something we could do with the Disabilities Act

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Speaker 1: that might help people who are in this situation. But

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Speaker 1: they have these mounting medical bills and they have to live,

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Speaker 1: and they're they're really in dire straits. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not even one of them, but I feel for

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Speaker 1: them so much because what you're describing sounds like it

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Speaker 1: will be a long time coming. With all due respect

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Speaker 1: and even appreciating your the attention you're paying to the issue,

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Speaker 1: we know, I think that's a fair concern. Even the

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Speaker 1: dollars that'll be allocated a year ago to research. You

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily get an answer on a research question just

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Speaker 1: like that. You know, you really have to do it

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Speaker 1: and do it right in order to come up with answers.

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Speaker 1: But there are some there are some immediate term things

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Speaker 1: that I do think are important one is um the

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Speaker 1: Biden administration has already put out some guidance about long

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Speaker 1: COVID as being a kind of condition that needs to

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Speaker 1: be protected by the Americans with Disabilities Act. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: the Americans with Disabilities Act would suggest that in an

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Speaker 1: employment setting, an employer should offer you accommodations if you

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Speaker 1: have health related issues. Folks who have long COVID need

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Speaker 1: to be given accommodations at the workplace. And again we

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Speaker 1: may need to communicate that that that out to employers

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Speaker 1: and to employees about the way to ask for those

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Speaker 1: kinds of accommodations. But there is a legal protection right

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Speaker 1: now that I think would provide some help. And then

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Speaker 1: the second thing is on the on the medical side.

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Speaker 1: Even as we're doing big picture research, there there are

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Speaker 1: treatments for some of the long COVID conditions. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: somebody would hear me describe when I'm going through and

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Speaker 1: would say, well, that's a neuropathy, and often a peripheral neuropathy,

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Speaker 1: tingling in the fingers and toes. That's not that unusual.

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Speaker 1: It comes with follows diabetes and follows other things. There

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Speaker 1: are treatments for some of these conditions already that could

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Speaker 1: probably be adapted to my circumstances. Now, somebody with a

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Speaker 1: cardiac a racing heart rate or a regular heart heart rate,

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Speaker 1: you know that's there's gonna be a different treatment. But

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Speaker 1: but because um, after effects of viruses have been known

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Speaker 1: before other viruses, we might be able to adapt some

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Speaker 1: of those treatments for people's conditions right now. And that's

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Speaker 1: the kind of thing where you know, I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: practice medicine, especially as a non doctor in a zoom

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Speaker 1: call with you, but as people could go on and

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Speaker 1: say I had COVID, here are the symptoms. Okay, even

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Speaker 1: separating apart from COVID the symptoms you describe, there are

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Speaker 1: treatments for some of those symptoms, and hopefully those might

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Speaker 1: provide some relief to people. And what about sort of

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Speaker 1: the financial assistance for people who have lost their jobs

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Speaker 1: and have mounting medical bills. What's being done to address that?

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Speaker 1: And is the government? Does the government have a responsibility

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Speaker 1: in that arena? Well, Katie, we ultimately do, because look,

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Speaker 1: it's not inconceivable that um, somebody with long COVID symptoms

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Speaker 1: might eventually qualify for Social Security disability, where there would

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Speaker 1: be a financial assistance for them. In fact, I haven't

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Speaker 1: done the research on this, but I'm sure, I am

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Speaker 1: absolutely sure that there's already Americans who have been filing

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Speaker 1: and going through the disability process because of their own

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Speaker 1: COVID and the after effect. Is there more that can

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Speaker 1: be done on helping people deal with the financial burden?

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there is. The bill that I induced, the

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Speaker 1: CARES bill is more about the research and therapy these

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Speaker 1: in information than that. But look, this is gonna have

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Speaker 1: a huge effect on our healthcare system going forward. I

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Speaker 1: I often say that on the labor force, by the way,

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Speaker 1: absolutely in a time when the unemployment rates already really

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Speaker 1: low and employers are like, where do I find a workforce? Um,

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Speaker 1: I've been giving this talk where I say there will

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Speaker 1: be a day when President Biden will say the national

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Speaker 1: emergency is over and COVID is in the rear view mirror.

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Speaker 1: But the two pieces that won't go away are long

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Speaker 1: COVID and the mental health aspects of an American public

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Speaker 1: that seems it's almost a million people have died already.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the death told to COVID is already over

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Speaker 1: nine d and fifty thousand, and then you add the

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Speaker 1: illness and job loss and business is closed. You stack

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Speaker 1: all that on top of it, and then there's this

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Speaker 1: mental health aspect of COVID that's gonna affect us long

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Speaker 1: after COVID is in the rear view mirror. Both of

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Speaker 1: those things, the physical aspects of long COVID in the

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Speaker 1: mental health consequences of the last few years are going

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Speaker 1: to demand innovation and resources from all levels of government.

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Speaker 1: Are you keeping in mind this prominent issue that I

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Speaker 1: think surfaced and really in a critical way in the

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Speaker 1: last couple of years about racial disparities and equities in

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Speaker 1: our health care system. I know that the racism described

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Speaker 1: by the patients we interviewed for this podcast caused severe

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Speaker 1: delays and accessing care, severe delays and accessing disability insurance. So, um,

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Speaker 1: are you keeping these things front and center, the institutional

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Speaker 1: and systematic racism that exists in our health care system

432
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: as you kind of craft this bill and think about

433
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: what's going to be in it. Um, The answer is yes, Katie,

434
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: and we need to. I mean, as you know that

435
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: who has who has disproportionately suffered from COVID, the people

436
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: who died from COVID have been disproportionately Latino and African American.

437
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: The people who've died of COVID have been disproportionate in

438
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: Latino and African American, and the people who've lost jobs

439
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: because of COVID are disproportionately Latino, African American women and

440
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: young people. So this is affect that everyone that hadn't

441
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: effected everybody equally. And so as we look at at

442
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: cures and and treatments and who's getting vaccinated who isn't,

443
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: we have to be really specific to deal with equity issues.

444
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: It's very common in medicine where and frankly where this

445
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: is probably demonstrated the most vividly as in issues of

446
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: the maternal mortality. Yes we did. We did two podcasts

447
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: on that, and and I'm sure people said exactly the

448
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: same thing to you. I reported to my physician that

449
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: this was the way I was feeling. And you know,

450
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: a white mom expecting mother reporting the same symptoms as

451
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: an African American expecting mother is more likely to get oh,

452
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: that's really a concern, how can we help? And then

453
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: the African American expecting mom might get kind of fobbed

454
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: off and if not completely dismissed, not taken as seriously um,

455
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: even in conditions that are very, very dire circumstances. So

456
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: when you see that happening in something like the maternal

457
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: mortality space, you can see the same thing somebody going

458
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: in and saying I had COVID six months gon, I'm

459
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: so deal with symptoms in the In the profession, they

460
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: may not be taken as seriously. Many reports that they're

461
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: not taking as seriously. So we have to as we're

462
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: you know, undertaking getting the patient experiences and doing the

463
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: research into causes and cures, and then getting information out,

464
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: we have to build sort of an equity component into

465
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: each of those three pieces, because you can't discount um

466
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: folks experiences and you know, and when you do and

467
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: I'm sure you heard this in the maternal mortality space.

468
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: If I report to you an experience I have and

469
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: then you discount it, okay, well then I'll be less

470
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: likely to report it to you the next time I'm in.

471
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: And it's sort of a vicious downward cycle where then

472
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: you don't have as the provider of the information you

473
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: need to make good decisions. There's not the trust that

474
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: is built up that allow that allows for communication, and

475
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: then health outcomes get a lot worse. So we have

476
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: to have in in both our research and our uh

477
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: in our communication. We have to build in an awareness

478
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: of these inequities, or else the health outcomes not only

479
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: are disparate, but they get even wider if we don't

480
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: solve this. Congressman Buyer has been working on at least

481
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: one of these systemic issues, collecting accurate data. In January

482
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: this year, Representatives Buyer and Ianna Pressley of Massachusetts demanded

483
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: better data from the CDC on long COVID's impact, specifically

484
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: on women and minorities. So has the CDC been receptive

485
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: to your requests, because it does seem that a really

486
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: fulsome research studies in order. It's a it's a yes

487
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: and no. He had serve. Yes, they've been friendly and open.

488
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: On the other hand, they're a little overwhelmed. Yeah, they're

489
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: trying to keep some very different research balls up in

490
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: the air. As you know, they've been criticized for not

491
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: being more forthcoming with some of their data, and of

492
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: course they have responded to Dr Lensky and others that

493
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: we don't want to get science out there that's not vetted,

494
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: that could only be half right, and have people making

495
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: their own decisions. UM for an overwhelmed agency. I think

496
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: they're trying to partner with this as best they can,

497
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: but we've got to keep the pressure up. Would you

498
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: like to take a moment to convince this community that

499
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: you are going to stay on it, Congressmen, that they

500
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: will not be forgotten, that you will do everything in

501
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: your power to ensure that their suffering is taken seriously

502
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: and the government can try to help. Katie, Yes, absolutely,

503
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: we We can't forget the long COVID folks who are

504
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: gonna be with us long after we stopped wearing mask

505
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: and everybody's back in school. Um, we need to continue

506
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: to try to make Congress Um a more effective, faster

507
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: acting body. I don't think our founding mothers and fathers

508
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: ever intended for it to be as glacial as it

509
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: is right now. And there are many really good ideas

510
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: about there about how to make it a more responsive

511
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: legislative body. But in the meantime, while it is what

512
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: it is, people like Senator Kane and I and Congressman

513
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: Jack Bergman, I under Pressley from s who's we need

514
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: to just keep the pressure on as hard as we can.

515
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: A lot of long COVID sufferers are going to be

516
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: listening to this podcast, Senator and closing, what would you

517
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: say to them? Well, what Katie, I mean? The first

518
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: thing I'll say is I believe you. And there's a

519
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: lot of us up here too, because we've had this experience.

520
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: We believe both your experience of COVID, but we believe

521
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: that these symptoms persist. Um. We are investing dollars now

522
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: for a year in research to figure out what to do.

523
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: And I would say maybe maybe the most powerful thing

524
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: I could say is if you if you hang with

525
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: us in this and you keep communicating, will not only

526
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: figure out the answer for people who have long COVID,

527
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: we were likely to figure out answers that will help

528
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,439
Speaker 1: people who have after effects of line disease or other

529
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: viruses or the other pandemics. They're gonna be coming, you know,

530
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: down the highway in years to come. The study that

531
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,439
Speaker 1: we can do with people who have long COVID will

532
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: not only help you, but they're gonna help a lot

533
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: of other people who are gonna have you know, who

534
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: either had COVID, are gonna have the next virus that comes.

535
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: And that's why it's really important that we do this,

536
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: and we do this together, we can help a lot

537
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: of people down the line if we if we stay focused.

538
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: That was Senator Tim Kaine and Congressman Don Buyer coming up.

539
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: We'll have some final thoughts from our guests. I have

540
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: concerns that people are losing hope. I have concerns that

541
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: people are being devastated financially and that we're not moving

542
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: quickly enough to to soften that blow through policies. People

543
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: are disabled and they don't know where to go to

544
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: get evaluated and to be able to get get the

545
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: kind of support that they need. When we talk about

546
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: getting used to all of this, what it means that

547
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,760
Speaker 1: we're getting used to mass disabling event. We are getting

548
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 1: used to people in their twenties and thirties effectively having

549
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: their livelihoods shut off from them, people who cannot go

550
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: back to work, whose careers are being ruined, who have

551
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: to downsize their homes, selling their cars because they need

552
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: to pay for medications. We are not seeing the urgency.

553
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: The hardest part of all of this the uncertainty of

554
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: it all. The unknown, I mean, besides not knowing if

555
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: and when it will ever end, the unknown physically is

556
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: really feeling like there's no adult left in our family,

557
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: in our life to take care of us. The unknown emotionally,

558
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: it's really scary, the unknown of what my capacity is

559
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: going to be, Like how am I going to operate

560
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 1: in this world. Most doctors that I talked to, all

561
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: they can really tell you is that most people wake

562
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: up and they feel better now you know, twelve of

563
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: thirteen months in. It gets more into like is this

564
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: a forever thing? And nobody knows. Nobody can give me

565
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: an answer to it. I don't know how long we

566
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: could survive this. If this is often, what I try

567
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 1: to do is to tell them to be to be

568
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: brave again. Dr Harlan Crumholtz, to hold on because I

569
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: do believe that that it's a galvanizing moment where we

570
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: can come together and try to learn quickly and and

571
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: look what happened with the vaccines. I mean, the vaccines

572
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: did progress really rapidly, and now it's it's something short

573
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: of a miracle that that happened. I mean, but people

574
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 1: came together in a in a concerted effort and tried

575
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: to solve a problem. And what we need to do

576
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: is try to do this similarly for long COVID and

577
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 1: and again in this case, I think it's within partnership

578
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: with the patients. But but I tried to tell them

579
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: that look, this this could be around the corner that

580
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: we could be able to get insights that really cracked

581
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: the case and how help us figure out what to

582
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: make how to make their lives better. And so I

583
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 1: think that that should light a fire under us to

584
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:43,879
Speaker 1: say that yes, we need to be able to have

585
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: some blood tests or some reflections of disturbances of the

586
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: physiology that are leading to we need to understand the

587
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,959
Speaker 1: underlying mechanisms. But there's another piece to this is which

588
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: we have to trust people. We have to listen to

589
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: them intently, and we have to try to appreciate what

590
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: it is that they're going through and and be a

591
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: call to action for us, not just something to dismiss.

592
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: What we've learned is that the number one criteria that

593
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: any medical professional can have for you is a concern

594
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: about whether or not you make it. They have to

595
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 1: care whether or not you're going to be okay, because

596
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: if they don't, no amount of you know, of credentials,

597
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: no amount of of education or achievement is going to

598
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: help you. I know that we are all different and

599
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: our experiences are different. But I am so proud to

600
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 1: see how many long COVID patients with limited energy, limited money,

601
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 1: limited resources have banded together to make people pay attention.

602
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: Two years into this and if finally ready to start start,

603
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 1: I'm ready to talk about my story and experiences. I

604
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: just refused to accept that this is where I'm at.

605
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: So my goal is to be a nurse again, and

606
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 1: and I don't know what that's gonna look like. I

607
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: don't know if that means that I'm just gonna be

608
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: all better and cleared to go back to work on set,

609
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 1: or if I'll have to have some you know, combinations

610
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 1: and limitations. I don't know any of this. I don't

611
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: know what's next. I don't know what's out there. But

612
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna just stay here doing nothing. I see

613
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: myself in the future climbing Manchu Pichi I have had

614
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 1: and when I was in the hospital, they have this

615
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: incentive sperometer, and I wanted to climb uh Montopu too,

616
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 1: and I took a video and I said, this is

617
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: my Montu p To And I continues to think of

618
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: this entire journey as my mountain and it goes up

619
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: and down, so I'm trying to still get to the

620
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: top and so along that way, I'd like to see

621
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: change happen policy wise as far as healthcare access and

622
00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: affordability for h chronic illness and marginalized communities. And I'd

623
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: like to just be someone who can being pactful and

624
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: effectful or yeah, effect change and support. Knowing that there

625
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,800
Speaker 1: are others that are suffering worse than I am. UM

626
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: just makes me want to be almost a voice and

627
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: an advocate in any way I can be UM for

628
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: better care, better standards, better healthcare UM in this country

629
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: to help us get through this. I'm proud of myself,

630
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: and so that's what gives me glimous of hope. I

631
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: do this so that people who look like me never

632
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: have to experience, as much as possible what I experienced.

633
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: As much as we're hearing people Will try Will Will

634
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: would prefer to talk about COVID in the past tense.

635
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 1: You know. It's the truth is it's not over just

636
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: because we're over it. What makes COVID such a perfect

637
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,800
Speaker 1: teacher is the fact that it's not going to stop.

638
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 1: I hope someone with the power two change something is listening.

639
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: Thank you to all of our long COVID patients who

640
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: spent time and energy they didn't have sharing their stories.

641
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 1: You've heard from deepest saying Brian Mason and Janine Hayes,

642
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: Shamir L. Smith, Liza Fisher, Rebecca Hogan and Jack Guest,

643
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: and thank you as well to Dr Harlan Crumholz and

644
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:45,280
Speaker 1: Dr Akiko Iwasaki of Yale University, and to Diana Barrant

645
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: of course of Survivor Core. If you're suffering from long

646
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: COVID symptoms and are looking for help, you can start

647
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: with support groups like Survivor Core, Embody Politic will have

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Speaker 1: links to those and others in our disc option. For

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Speaker 1: everyone out there listening, you can do your part to

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Speaker 1: get long COVID sufferers some care and attention. Just call

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Speaker 1: your local representative and ask them to urgently pass the

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Speaker 1: Care Long COVID Act. Thank you so much for listening everyone.

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Speaker 1: If you want to see and hear from some of

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Speaker 1: the long COVID patients we spoke to, head to my

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Speaker 1: YouTube channel for their stories, and a huge thank you

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Speaker 1: to Lauren Hansen on our team, our producer, who puts

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Speaker 1: so much time and energy into telling these stories. Thank you, Lauren.

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Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Media and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers arm Me,

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00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 1: Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen.

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Speaker 1: Associate producers Derek Clements and a Trianna Fasio. The show

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00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information

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Speaker 1: about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter,

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Speaker 1: wake Up Call, go to Katie correct dot com. You

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Speaker 1: can also find me at Katie Correct on Instagram and

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Speaker 1: all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,