1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Quality vous with Joseph Scott Morgan. One of the things 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: that I love about autopsy reports that predate modern times, 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: and certainly both of the Borden's autopsy reports do that, indeed, 4 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: is that they transport you back to a time where 5 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: I think that many of us have so placed this 6 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: case on a pedestal, so kind of sealed it in 7 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: the past, that we don't really fully appreciate true violence. 8 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: And guess what, the violence in the eighteen nineties was 9 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: just as real as it is in the twenty first century. 10 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body bags. Dave, 11 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: give me, give me this timeframe again. The homicides took place. 12 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 2: In August fourth, at well between nine thirty in the 13 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 2: morning and eleven fifteen, and the autopsies took place. That 14 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 2: was on August fourth. The autopsies took place seven days later, 15 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: on August eleventh, at eleven fifteen am. 16 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: So we're talking seven it's seven days later, yeah, seven 17 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: days later. And this is in August. And I don't 18 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: care if it is Massacusetts. August is warm all right, 19 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: by the way, beautiful places go. I haven't been to 20 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: Fall River, but i've been to Massachusetts in the summertime. 21 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: The weather compared to Alabama is delicious that time of year. 22 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's really really pleasant. Well, it's unclear 23 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: as to why it necessarily took this much time. I'm 24 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,639 Speaker 1: assuming that they had to find somebody that they felt 25 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: like that was a medical examiner qualified medical examiner. By 26 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: the way, state of Massachusetts is the first place in 27 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: the Union to use the term medical examiner, and this 28 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: happened back in the eighteen seventies. They were also one 29 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: of the first states to do away with the office 30 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 1: of corner. Isn't that fascinating, And so you kind of 31 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: got this evolution going on. There's a lot of forensic 32 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: tie backs here in this case that are quite fascinating 33 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: historically anyway. So it took them seven days. So when 34 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: you begin to read both Abby and Andrews autopsy reports, 35 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: it's obvious, I mean literally in the first paragraph they 36 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: talk about he doesn't use his term, but the term 37 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: is actually flaccid, and flaccid means limp, it means not rigid, 38 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: and the pro sector here is saying that both bodies 39 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: are not stiff, they're both flaccid as a result of decomposition. 40 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: So by the time the doctor puts the coal steel 41 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: to both of these bodies, they're already in a state 42 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: of decay. Dave, They've already begun to break down. And 43 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: I find this absolutely fascinating that they weren't able to 44 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: get to these bodies sooner than seven days down range. 45 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: From let's face it, all right, I don't know what 46 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: else was going on in August of eighteen ninety two 47 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: in Fall River, but I would imagine everybody in the 48 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: in the you know, in the surrounding countryside had heard 49 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: about this by this time. This is top of the news, 50 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: all right, and that this took so long to get 51 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: these pro sections done. It's just a fascinating thing that we, 52 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: you know, you think about in the modern context. It's 53 00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: quite amazing. And as a matter of fact, you know, 54 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: I talked about the extensive head injuries that both these 55 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: individuals sustained, and that's primarily where this trauma is in dwelling, Dave, 56 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: they had decomposed so much that both of the brains 57 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: had liquefied. Really, yeah, they had begun to liquefy, and 58 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: they the brain was removed through the defects. Essentially now 59 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: when you look at I think it's Andrews Andrew's image, 60 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: the one image of his skull, you can see this 61 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 1: kind of linear incision that's been made that looks like 62 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: a circumferential, you know, incision that you would make like 63 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: with a modern saw. They would have used handsaws back then. 64 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: I've actually had to use a handsaw on skull and 65 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: it's not fun. My saw went out, my electric saw. 66 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: It's a laborious undertaking to make your way through a 67 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: human skull with a handsaw. That's what they would have 68 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: been using. Uh, But I don't know if they thought 69 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 1: that it was better to take it out this way. 70 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: And one of the problems with this is that when 71 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: you're not doing a fresh autopsy on somebody with trauma, 72 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: the brain does, in fact really begin to break down. 73 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: It's one of the organs that does, in fact, because 74 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: it's real. The brain in the brain anyway is I 75 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: know some people take exception of this, but it's I've 76 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: always thought of thought of it as kind of gelaginous, 77 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of you know, it's it's very 78 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: fatty and it's very greasy, uh, and it begins to 79 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: kind of break down anyway. To me, it breaks down 80 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: quicker than any other organ in the body. You know, 81 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: you can go to the liver and liver will be 82 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: kind of greasy and that sort of thing if it's decomposed, 83 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: but it's still it still has kind of a firmness 84 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: to it, kind of bounces back, you know when you 85 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: touch it. Not not the brain so much. It liquefies. 86 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: And so when you're trying to assess like hemorrhage, like 87 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: you if you've got a strike with a sharp instrument 88 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 1: or a blunted instrument, you have to appreciate underlying hemorrhage. Well, 89 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: that's really hard to do on something that's liquefied. So 90 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,359 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that their conclusions are speculative. They're not, 91 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: because you've got evidence that the skull has literally been 92 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: in sized and blunt force fractured. But it makes it 93 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: a bit tougher, you know, if you're trying to do 94 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: like a nuanced dissection. But back to you know, back 95 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: to Andrew Andrew. Now, what was that number for Andrew 96 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: Andrew was he was forty one? Right? Well, actually he's eleven. 97 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:50,799 Speaker 1: He's got eleven documented insults to his head, right, wow. 98 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, But Joe, they waited a week seven days between 99 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 2: the time of the strikes on the head and the 100 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 2: time they're actually looking at what would have had happened 101 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: to those injuries. Wouldn't they as part of the process 102 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 2: of decomp wouldn't they really look considerably different than they 103 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 2: did when they first happened. 104 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you could still appreciate that there was that 105 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: there was anti mortem hemorrhage in there. Okay, you know 106 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: like that these are not like like you can separate 107 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: out by eyeball in it. Okay, you can actually eyeball 108 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: it and delineate somebody. That's really good. They can delineate 109 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: between anti mortem injuries and post mortem changes. Now, this 110 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: is the one thing that you run into problems with 111 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: where you have open injuries like that decomposition is will 112 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: kind of affect that area more than say a closed area. 113 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: All right, so it's going to change it. But if 114 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: you've got a keen eye for it, and you've done 115 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: enough cases, you can make that delineation and say, yet, 116 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: this is I can see the margins here, I can 117 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 1: see this little area of hemorrhage, and I can assess 118 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: that this is an anti mortem injury at this stage now, Dude, 119 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: if they had gone on for like over a month 120 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: for this, it would have been much more of an 121 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: uphill climb for them, I think. And they're not They're 122 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: not going into These autopsy reports are in no way 123 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: as and not insulting, you know, the ancestors here, but 124 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: they are in no way as detailed as as ours 125 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: are today as But I got to tell you some 126 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: of the autopsy reports I reviewed, it modern ones compared 127 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: to what they did to Andrew and Abbey. I'd rather 128 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: have this guy doing the autopsies than some of the 129 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 1: people that I've seen that have generated some of the 130 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: garbage I reviewed, you know, over that's been sent in 131 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: my way as a result of stuff that we're covering 132 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: in the news and whatnot. But yes, so Andrew had 133 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: eleven and it's fascinating. And I say this tongue in cheek. 134 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: Missus Borden, Missus Borden actually had eighteen injuries. Oh wow. 135 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: And the speculation is is that she was killed first. Dave, 136 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: you know, we talked quite a bit about Abby Borden's 137 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: autopsy report and something that kind of struck me. I 138 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: wanted to point out to you about about miss Borden's 139 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: autopsy report is that it's not just about injuries with her. 140 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: It also gives you kind of this let's say it's 141 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: probably it probably wouldn't be good for me to say 142 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: slice of life, but it kind of gives you an 143 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: insight into these people are real. You know, you just 144 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: think about the injuries that we've seen. Let me give 145 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: you for instance, you know, kind of reflecting back. We 146 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: have to remember these autopsies were done roughly a week 147 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: after the homicides had taken place, so they've been sitting 148 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: up in a family crypt. There is no cult storage 149 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: for bodies. This is a location where bodies are kept 150 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: during the winter months until they can bring them out 151 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: and bury them in the you know, in the iced 152 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: over soil. And so when you begin to read into 153 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,839 Speaker 1: this report, you learn a little bit about missus Bordon 154 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 1: Abbey Board and that is and and she's sixty four 155 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: years old. They describe her, and you don't hear this 156 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: term in modern in modern parlance, they describe her as 157 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: being very well nourished and you're ready for this day, fleshy, flesh, fat. Yeah, yeah, 158 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: that's that's essentially what they're saying. Now that they're p yeah, no, 159 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: no kid in fleshy and I so she. 160 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 2: Could have been on the Biggest Loser, right. 161 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess so, you know perhaps, And you know, 162 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: the thing about it is is that you know, now 163 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: in modern times, we give these very specific measurements, you know, 164 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: for bodies in the morgue. She measures out at five 165 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: foot three, but we have no idea how much she weighs. 166 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: So for them, that would have been super impolite. 167 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. Perhaps I don't know, or maybe they just did 168 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 1: not have the ability in a crypt to place a 169 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: body onto a scale because obviously back then we didn't 170 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: have digital scales. We didn't have a floor scale that 171 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: would have been portable to bring it there. You know, 172 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: nowadays you just take a body and you wheel it 173 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: up onto a floor scale and it gives you a 174 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: digital reading. They didn't have that ability. You'd have to 175 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: go to someplace like a warehouse or something to get 176 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: a weight. And that's just kind of fascinating to me. 177 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: And they actually talk about her her dentition, which is 178 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: it's kind of fascinating. They talk about how she's got 179 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: artificial teeth in her jaw. Well, that's something that you 180 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: know most people you don't consider it, but her teeth 181 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: are present. That gives you an idea that a peek 182 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: into her life. She's working around the house that day, 183 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: she's not going to walk around without her teeth in, 184 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: you know, she might take them out at bedtime. 185 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 2: I looked it up when I saw the As we 186 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: were preparing this, I didn't know very much about the case, 187 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 2: and so I educated myself a little bit on the 188 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 2: family dynamic. And I saw that about the teeth, and 189 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 2: I thought, well, I don't think about dentures other than 190 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 2: George Washington's made out of wood or walris or whatever 191 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: they used, you know, and him having his dentist on 192 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 2: the battleground with him, you know, so he always looked 193 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: because his teeth always are. And I looked at these. 194 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 2: They're not that dissimilar from what we have today in 195 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 2: terms of denters. They look like teeth. They don't look 196 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 2: like something that you'd be embarrassed to wear and be 197 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: better than having nothing. But anyway, I just was I 198 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: I don't know what I was thinking about, but I 199 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: didn't expect them to look like a real set of denters. 200 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so, yeah, and you know, dentistry obviously since 201 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: this point, time has come a long way, but they 202 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: did have dentures, and you know some of these dental 203 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: appliances back then, well they would be enough to you know, 204 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: to how do they say, make your blood curdle? I 205 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: guess if you looked at it and you thought, I'm 206 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: going to stick that in my mouth. But you know, 207 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: it does, in fact give you an insight into her life. 208 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: And here's the other thing that's significant that does actually 209 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: Dave marry up with something that you and I talk 210 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: about regularly on body bags, and that's the fact that 211 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: doctor Dolan, who is actually the medical examiner in this case, 212 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 1: he makes reference to the fact that there are no 213 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: marks of violence on Abby's body. That is he's and 214 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: he specifically says, on the front of the body. And 215 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: you know, he's already thinking about orientation. You know, when 216 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: she's found, she's in a prone position adjacent to the 217 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: bed in that second on that second floor bedroom, and 218 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: so he's you know, he's already thinking, you know, how 219 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: did this go down? But yet you go over to 220 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: Andrew Borden, her husband, and of course. 221 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 2: Joe I got to ask you this because well, we know, 222 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 2: based on what we've already learned that that she was 223 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 2: hit in the face, in the head right on the 224 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,479 Speaker 2: side she was facing her attacker. 225 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, at least the initial blow they think, okay, 226 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: so you've got this kind of and he describes it 227 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: as a it's a superior Remember I talked about he 228 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: uses the term ear hole right, which you know a 229 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: modern doctors would say the left miatus or the external 230 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: auditory canal. And that strike is on the left side. 231 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: I think that probably they were thinking after she is 232 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: struck on the left side and they just they describe 233 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: it as as a glancing blow, so it would not 234 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: have necessarily have been a fatal blow, at least in 235 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: the immediate and he actually says it doesn't penetrate the skull. 236 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: It's when she spins around. And maybe, Dave, you know, 237 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: you have a lot of people that are attacked and 238 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: the first thing that they will do is, and I 239 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: think it's a problemal response, is they turn their back 240 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: to their attacker. They almost they almost take on the 241 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: appearance of a turtle shell. You know, they give you 242 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: their back. They're protecting the very delicate area on the 243 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: front of their body. So maybe it's spun her around 244 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: she struck. She does in fact have a contusion on 245 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: her nose, but I think that might be an impact 246 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: injury from just going straight down to the floor. 247 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 2: See I was thinking a hatchet. Well actually in my 248 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: head I was thinking AXX, but in a hatchet sense. 249 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 2: If you're swinging an axe, you're coming down all the 250 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 2: way across the head, down the body. That's why I 251 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 2: was kind of thinking there would be some marking on 252 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 2: the body. But with a hatchet in your hand, you know, 253 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 2: one hand on the hatchet, you wouldn't you'd have more control. 254 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 2: It doesn't have nearly the weight, it doesn't have nearly 255 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 2: the strength to hit, and so yeah, it would stop 256 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 2: and go. If it was to be a glancing blowing, 257 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 2: you know, bouncing off and not hitting the bone, it 258 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 2: would not come down, it would go to the side. 259 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 2: So that makes sense, now. 260 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. And keep in mind a hatchet back 261 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: during this period of Tom Dave, this is a very 262 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: standard implement that you would find a home. And let 263 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: me tell you why. My great grandmother used to complain 264 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: about my grandmother because she had a big family, and 265 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: she would say, my grandmother's maid names Killian. She said 266 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: every time those damned killions. Kill a chicken, everybody shows 267 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: up at the house. Well, what she meant, well, first off, 268 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: she didn't like big crowds, and my grandmother did. She 269 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: loved to have all of her family over. But what 270 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: that meant in that generation is that it was very 271 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: common of particularly more rural areas, to keep chickens and 272 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: to cut their heads off and you know, dress them 273 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: out for dinner. So the ladies of the house, they 274 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: were well aware of how to use a hatchet. You know, 275 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: they could use it for any number of things. Also, 276 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: if you had an ice box, you would chip ice, 277 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: you would use a hatchet to chip ice with. You 278 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: would cut kindling with it. Just to get a fire 279 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: started in the kitchen. You know, we're not talking about 280 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: a roaring fire. We're talking about if you've got an 281 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 1: oven that requires firewood. You're going to be adept at 282 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: using this. So whoever used this thing probably has been 283 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: using it for a while. They would be rather skilled 284 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,360 Speaker 1: with it. And of course the handle on it near 285 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: as long as an axe handle, much easier to manage. 286 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: That's why hatchets for a long time were used in warfare, 287 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: because you can use them in close quarters combat. So 288 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: it's an interesting weapon, to say the very least. Dave 289 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: makes it. 290 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 2: That makes a lot more sense, though, and I'm glad 291 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 2: you were able to explain it because I was trying 292 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 2: to in my head figure this out. All right, So 293 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 2: now after the autopsy of the fleshy somewhat OBEs Yeah, 294 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 2: sixty four year old missus bordon right, what happens? Because 295 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 2: this is just the autopsy and we've still got to do, 296 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 2: mister Borden. But at some point in time they removed 297 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: the skulls. Do they do that during autopsy or is 298 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: this done later on? 299 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: No, My suspicion is is that they You're not going 300 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: to go back in and create a new mess after 301 00:18:54,880 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: you've cleaned up one mess. So one fail sweep and 302 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: don't nobody out there. I don't want you to think 303 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: that that this is not a beheading. This is a beheading. 304 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: It's a beheading, a decapitation in a clinical sense. And 305 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: I can't really say how neat and clean it would be. 306 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: I can tell you this. There would have been sharp 307 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: instruments that would have been used to cut down through 308 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: the fleshy areas in the neck until they can get 309 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: to the rear attachments running running up to support the 310 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: skull in the rear, and you have to trim away 311 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: all of the tissue. You go in with scalpels and 312 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: you're going to make you're going to make those little 313 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: tiny incisions to get rid of any of the ligaments, 314 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: the tendons, all of those attaching structures that are in there. 315 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 1: Free that up, cut through the muscle, and then at 316 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 1: that point in time they would not necessarily have had 317 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: to have used a saw because you can go through 318 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: you can actually go through the disc in the back 319 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: on the neck and cut through there and they have 320 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: little attachments too. If you can free those up, you 321 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: can decapitate a body. Remember we've talked about this quite 322 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: a bit with dismemberment, and this is the case where 323 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: you've got medical professionals for that time that had the 324 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: tools at their disposal in order to be able to 325 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: facilitate this. And so you know, and that's kind of interesting. 326 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: Most people don't think about, you know, a decapitation taking place, 327 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: but for evidentiary benefit, it would after you have cleaned 328 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: up this body. And when I say cleaned up, kind 329 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: of closed, sewed the body up, gotten the body ready 330 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: for whatever the family is going to do with the 331 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: body at that point in time. I think one interesting 332 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: element here I can't imagine that they would have even 333 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: considered having an open casket for this. My suspicion is 334 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: is that they would have taken the heads immediately and 335 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: defleshed them in some way that can either be boiling, 336 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: or the really hard route is to actually go in 337 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: and strip the tissue off of there. Manually. It's very 338 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: difficult to free up because you don't just have muscle 339 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: laying on top of bone. You have what's called fascia. 340 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: And if anybody who's ever heard of fasci itis, it's 341 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: an inflammation of that connective tissue that runs between the 342 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: muscle and the bone. Essentially, it's kind of white. If 343 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: you've ever taken out ribs from the grocery store, it's 344 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: got kind of a white film on it, and that's 345 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: stripped off. If you ever go to a barbecue or 346 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: something like, that's fascia, and so you've got this kind 347 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: of connection that has to be stripped away as well. 348 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: It's a lot easier if these elements are boiled and 349 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,919 Speaker 1: you can render them down. My suspicion is that's what 350 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: they had to do. And keep in mind as well, 351 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: the skulls, Dave, and we've talked about this already, because 352 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: that's what is so striking to me about this. They 353 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: used both of these skulls at trial. These people were decomposing. 354 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: They were decomposing, So you're not going to bring a 355 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: skull into a courtroom that is emitting this foul odor. 356 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: It would have been cleaned thoroughly and then set up. 357 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: You know, it was roughly, I think roughly a year 358 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 1: between the actual homicides and the trial itself, so they 359 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: had time to secure these skulls and bring them in. 360 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 1: But I do know this, I know that they had 361 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: put great thought into what they were going to do. 362 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: They knew that they were going to prosecute this case. 363 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: And the only thing that we have to really think 364 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: about here who was the actual target? Was it abby 365 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: or was it ander? It It's an interesting thing as 366 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: you age, those things that you put a value on 367 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: when you were younger, maybe even a kid, they just 368 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: don't hold the same as they once did now at 369 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: the point in life that I'm at, Dave. You know 370 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: what I truly enjoy in the afternoon if I can 371 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 1: go home and either sit in my recliner or on 372 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: my sofa in my living room. By the way, Kim 373 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: bought a buffalo hide leather sofa. I don't ask no questions. 374 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: I just say I like it and anyway, but it's 375 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: good for sleeping. I can lay on this thing and 376 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: there's something peaceful about it. It's different than taking a 377 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: nap on your I thought about this because of Andrew Borden. 378 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: Did you see that picture of his body where he 379 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: has reclined on that sofa and can you imagine he's 380 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: kind of got he's kind of kicked back on the 381 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 1: you know, on the surface. 382 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 2: I'm so glad you just said that, because Andrew Borden 383 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 2: went out for a walk. If you remember, at nine am, 384 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 2: after breakfast they had their company relative who was with him. 385 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 2: He went off and did his business. Andrew went for 386 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 2: his normal walk and returns around ten thirty. Now by 387 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 2: ten thirty, Abby Borden is upstairs dead. She's been hagitted 388 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 2: to death and according to their maid, the Irish twenty 389 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 2: five year old, she claims that when mister Borden returned 390 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 2: from his walk, she actually helped take his boots off 391 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 2: and put his house slippers on. However, the picture Joe's 392 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 2: talking about, which, by the way, it is available, you 393 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 2: can see it. He shows mister Borden is clearly wearing 394 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 2: his boots, his walking boots. Now, does that go to 395 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 2: a lie of misunderstanding a miss? You know, that's what 396 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 2: she normally did when he returned from his walk. But 397 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 2: does it also maybe lean towards he came in the 398 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 2: door and was attacked before he got on the couch. 399 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 2: I mean, what could have happened? What do the boots 400 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 2: say to you, Joseph Scott Morgan based on what you 401 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 2: know about how his body was found on that couch reclining. 402 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, well he's he's fully he's fully clothed, all right, 403 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean I'm literally looking at these shoes 404 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: right now that are, as you stated, on his feet. 405 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: And for those that haven't seen it, when you observe 406 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: Andrew Borden's body, his feet are bilaterally resting on the floor, okay, 407 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: and he is listening to his right. So if you 408 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: imagine you're sin on your sofa and at your waist, 409 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: just kind of cock yourself over to the right, to 410 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: the right side. And his head is actually on a 411 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: pillow As a matter of fact, the right aspect of 412 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: his head is contacting a pillow that's also contacting his 413 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: right shoulder, so he's kind of leaning into the into 414 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: this pillow. It's an odd position to be in. I 415 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: got to tell you, you know how I made reference 416 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: to my naps, dude, brother, let me tell you something. 417 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: Shoes are coming off, might be in my sock feet, 418 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: might not. My little dog will probably hop up on 419 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 1: my chest. I'm going to lay there, uh, and I'm 420 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: going to be fully supported on the sofa, same way 421 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: my recliner. I'm not going to get in this kind 422 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: of odd pretzel like position that he's in. And when 423 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: you look at this position, I think that you know, 424 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: the first thought is, well, was he in fact was 425 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 1: he in fact asleep dozing? Or was he seated upright? 426 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: And then attacked and kind of went over to decide. 427 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just looking at this, Dave, and 428 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, it doesn't look like the 429 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: most comfortable position to, you know, to catch a cat 430 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: nap in. I don't know. Maybe maybe he had the 431 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 1: ability to do that, but look, man, it's my house. 432 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: I know that you've got this kind of Victorian where 433 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: they call it propriety. Back then, you know where you 434 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: didn't take your shoes off, You walked around with a 435 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: tie on all the time. You know you're not going 436 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: to sit around. But man, he's where are your house slippers? 437 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: This is a rich guy. I always imagine he had 438 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: house slippers that were like embroidered with gold thread or something. 439 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: Of course, he was supposedly a tightwad, right, so exactly 440 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. It's an excellent point 441 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: that you bring up, and certainly something to be considered here, Dave. 442 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,360 Speaker 2: And it has everything to do with at trial there 443 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:06,479 Speaker 2: were issues. So let's go right now. We have Andrew Borden, 444 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 2: and I'm looking at the picture that you were describing. 445 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 2: I'm looking at it right now. You're the legal death investigator, 446 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 2: and you're coming into this where you're not having to 447 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 2: figure out a whole lot about where he died. It 448 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 2: doesn't look like he was killed someplace and drug over 449 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 2: there and placed on the couch. But is that a possibility. 450 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: I think that it would be very very difficult. As 451 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, if he were killed somewhere else, Dave, 452 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: you would have to take claws rags, towels, whatever, and 453 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: wrap them around this guy's head. Okay, in order to 454 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: transport him. And again you're creating new evidence by doing that. 455 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: You'd have to incinerate it. Of course, there's been talk 456 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: that there had been a fire, of things being burned 457 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: in order to move him from one location to another. 458 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: Now I don't know his weight. They don't really talk 459 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: about a you know, they don't give a description of 460 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: his size as far as his weight goes. However, Dave, 461 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: he's five eleven and for this period of time, that's 462 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: a that's a pretty pretty good sized guy. I mean, 463 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: you think the average Civil War soldier, which was thirty 464 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: years earlier prior to this was the average soldier was 465 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: five to eight in height. This guy's five to eleven. Yeah. Wow. 466 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: And I think they roughly weighed about one hundred and 467 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: forty pounds. So this guy is seventy years old and 468 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: he's still five to eleven. And you know what they say, 469 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: as you get older, you shrink, You're you know, you're 470 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: not going to maintain the same height for a variety 471 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: of different reasons, gravity for one. And really all that 472 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: we know about him is that he is in an 473 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: advanced state of decomposition. They do, in fact, find that 474 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: he's got a hernia. Uh that's on his right side, 475 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: which is kind of interesting. Uh. I don't know what 476 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: they had to do back then for hernial repair. And 477 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: he he like his wife, has got artificial teeth in 478 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: his upper jaw. So you know, I'm sure that people 479 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: fall asleep with dentures. But to me, my gag reflects 480 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: would kick in if I'm going to take it now. 481 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, man, those puppies are coming out. 482 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: I'd be so afraid I was going to choke on 483 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: these things. But he has he has dave again, no 484 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: marks of violence on his body. Yeah, and doctor doctor 485 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: Dolan makes reference to that again, which is something that 486 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: we do in the modern context. Really has no, Yeah, 487 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: he has no signs of violence on his body. And 488 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: then he goes on to say, but on the left 489 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: side of head and face there are numerous and sized wounds, 490 00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: one contoosed one one contoosed wound which means it's bruised, 491 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: which this happened in life, and that same wound penetrates 492 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: into the brain. All right, So no other signs of 493 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: violence this this event day when you're talking about him 494 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: being attacked is solely taking place on his head. He's 495 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: being hammered over and over and over again. And this 496 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: is dramatic. Now, as I'd said previously, Dave, there are 497 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: not forty one injuries here, They're not. They're literally ten 498 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: for him. And again going back to Abby, Abby had 499 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: far more than Andrew had. As a matter of fact, 500 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: she had total of eighteen. So if we you know, 501 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: if you begin to you know, you begin to think 502 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: about targeting here. You know, you know, we're mad at Dad, 503 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: but boy, we're really mad at stepmom here. And I 504 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: don't know if we can actually, you know, even draw 505 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: conclusion about that. But there was a lot more violence 506 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: directed at this fleshy woman who's only five foot three 507 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:19,239 Speaker 1: inches tall as opposed to this man who is, you know, 508 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: almost six feet tall, and he's laying there fully clothed. 509 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: You know, you would think that he might present as 510 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: a more formidable, you know, aggressor, but he has fewer 511 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: bits of trauma, but it is focalized, so he's he 512 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: is in a position day where once he is is 513 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: hammered with this hatchet and this is cutting literally through 514 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: his face. You know, some of these injuries. You know, Dave, 515 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: this first injury they talk about. Let me tell you 516 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: how gruesome this thing is. The left nasal bones to 517 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: the left side of your nose, all the way down 518 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: to the lower edge of your jaw, cutting through the nose, 519 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: the upper lip, the lower lip, and slightly into the 520 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: bone of the upper and lower jaw. This is a 521 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: powerful blow. So he took this thing on the left aspect, 522 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: to the left of the mid line, right in the face. 523 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: And I can't say, because remember what we have said 524 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: before on body bags, and in this case in particular, 525 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: just because the pathologist gives you an enumeration of injuries 526 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: that does not correlate to the sequence. All they're doing 527 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: is merely giving it a number. This is injury one, 528 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: This is injury two, this is injury three, and so 529 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: forth and so on. That doesn't mean that they're sequenced 530 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: in that way. But the injuries that he sustained were 531 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: so incredibly ghastly. And you know, we talked about rendering down, 532 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: rendering down his skull for presentation. Dave, let me tell 533 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 1: you something, and I urge anybody that has a strong 534 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: stomach to go and look at these images of these 535 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: skulls that are rendered down, because when you see Andrew's skull, 536 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: the left side of his face, including his eye socket 537 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: all the way down to his jaw, is completely caved in. 538 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it is just it's like the Red Sea 539 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: being parted here. And you can tell it was a 540 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: powerful weapon that did this. This almost looks like the 541 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: type of wound that you would see in combat, like 542 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: in ancient combat, where they're using heavy bladed instruments to 543 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: drive this instrument into a structure on the face the 544 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 1: body and that sort of thing. It actually reminded me 545 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: a little bit. You remember when we did the King 546 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: in the car park and we were talking about Richard 547 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,399 Speaker 1: IID and he had that big area on the backside 548 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 1: and the right occput of his head. When they recovered 549 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: King Richard the third skull, it had literally been sliced 550 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: in two. And those weapons that they used back then 551 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: were very, very heavy, So you could take something like 552 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: a hatchet of battle axe or something like that and 553 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,919 Speaker 1: really compare these injuries that the Borden sustained to those 554 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: injuries that would have occurred several centuries earlier before the 555 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 1: advent of firearms. These are brutal brutal injuries. Dave. 556 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 2: When you see mister Borden on the couch picture, you know, 557 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 2: you look at his head and it looks like if 558 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:42,240 Speaker 2: you saw Men in Black three, when Tommy Lee Jones 559 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 2: uses a pan to beat the head and he mashes 560 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 2: the guy's melon into the floor. That's what it looks like. 561 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 2: It looks like his head has been flattened. And when 562 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,240 Speaker 2: you look at the skull you see why it looked 563 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 2: that way. But as I'm looking at this, my biggest 564 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 2: question mark, and it's more of a Nancy Grace question, 565 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 2: why did they need to bring this into trial? It 566 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 2: just seems that two things are going to happen. One 567 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 2: the jurors going to think, no woman would do that 568 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 2: to her own father. No daughter would do her father 569 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 2: like that. It's horrible. Now some crazed guy who's illegal 570 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 2: alien from Portugal, maybe the Portuguese fisherman who had, you know, 571 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 2: killed somebody by chopping their head all the bits two 572 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,439 Speaker 2: months earlier, maybe that was him. This looks like something 573 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 2: a man would do, not a woman. 574 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: But that had come up previously, and you begin to 575 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 1: think about would a would a man? It would to 576 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: speak more of the crime of a man, and particularly 577 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: during this time. I'm very fascinated by the fact that 578 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: we're right in the heart of the Victorian era and 579 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: it would I think that it would give anybody pause 580 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,280 Speaker 1: back during that time. And this is a great point 581 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 1: that you make, that is it possible that a young 582 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: woman and not young women strike that actually very Uh 583 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,720 Speaker 1: she's she's a spencer at this time by she's thirty 584 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: by the conventions of that time though, and her sister, yes, 585 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: she's forty one. Would would they would she be capable 586 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,800 Speaker 1: of doing this? And I'm not just talking about physically, 587 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 1: you know, because keep in mind what what happened in 588 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: court when they brought the skulls out. She fainted. She 589 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: fainted in court, you know, so what what would be 590 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 1: the motivation? And again back to Victorian propriety here, the 591 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: fact that they're actually bringing in human skulls of citizens 592 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: that were like of of rank in this little community. 593 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: It's not about it Loan Bank, Yeah, I mean, everybody 594 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: knew and people dealt with him when he's on his 595 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: daily walk. Hey mister Gordon, how are you today, sir? 596 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: You know that sort of thing. But yet here we 597 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 1: are and you're staring at their skulls in the courtroom. 598 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 1: It's kind of a it's almost like through the looking glass, 599 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 1: because you would not expect this type of thing to 600 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: take place in this environment. And that's for me, this 601 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 1: one piece of evidence, and going back to what you 602 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: said about a lawyer question, what would be what would 603 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: be the reason? Because I would never presume to speak 604 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,399 Speaker 1: on behalf of the queen, Miss Grace. However, I think 605 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 1: that even she would say that this was inflammatory. So 606 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: what would be the motivation behind doing this? I don't know, 607 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: and I you know, I got to tell you, I 608 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: don't know that we will ever know, But what we 609 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: can understand is that it makes for one heck of 610 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: a story. And again it comes back to the fact 611 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: that out of all the cases that maybe have been 612 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: covered in the history of American crime annals, this one 613 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:25,240 Speaker 1: might be the coldest of them all. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 614 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 1: and this is body bags