1 00:00:17,620 --> 00:00:20,939 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Too quick? No, it was perfect. Pushkin. Stop. 2 00:00:21,420 --> 00:00:21,900 Speaker 2: You got it. 3 00:00:21,900 --> 00:00:23,380 Speaker 1: Robert Smith. 4 00:00:28,540 --> 00:00:34,850 Speaker 2: We're starting on July 23rd, 1892. One of my favorite eras. 5 00:00:43,220 --> 00:00:46,860 Speaker 2: A guy named Alexander Berkman walked into the headquarters of 6 00:00:46,979 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 2: Carnegie Steel in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. He said he was an 7 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,370 Speaker 2: employment agent, said he was there to help the company 8 00:00:53,409 --> 00:00:57,630 Speaker 2: find new workers, which made sense because Carnegie's big homestead 9 00:00:57,710 --> 00:01:00,970 Speaker 2: plant was shut down. The workers were out on strike. 10 00:01:01,370 --> 00:01:04,610 Speaker 2: Berkman wanted to talk to Henry Clay Frick, a guy 11 00:01:04,630 --> 00:01:07,670 Speaker 2: who was running the company and fighting the strikers. But 12 00:01:07,729 --> 00:01:11,149 Speaker 2: Berkman was not, in fact, an employment agent. 13 00:01:11,229 --> 00:01:11,429 Speaker 1: What? 14 00:01:12,020 --> 00:01:16,220 Speaker 2: He was an anarchist. He wanted a violent revolution that 15 00:01:16,260 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: would bring about the end of the United States of 16 00:01:18,660 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 2: America and set the workers free. And he thought the 17 00:01:21,970 --> 00:01:25,030 Speaker 2: way that he could start that revolution was by killing 18 00:01:25,110 --> 00:01:28,170 Speaker 2: Henry Clay Frick. So he forced his way into Frick's 19 00:01:28,230 --> 00:01:31,290 Speaker 2: office and shot him. I'm Jacob Goldstein. 20 00:01:31,470 --> 00:01:34,130 Speaker 1: I'm Robert Smith. And this is Business History, a show 21 00:01:34,630 --> 00:01:36,550 Speaker 1: about the history of business. 22 00:01:38,030 --> 00:01:42,350 Speaker 2: One really interesting thing to me about this shooting... is 23 00:01:42,370 --> 00:01:46,369 Speaker 2: at this moment in 1892, it would not have been 24 00:01:46,430 --> 00:01:50,650 Speaker 2: that surprising to the people of America because this era, 25 00:01:50,660 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 2: the 1880s, 1890s, was super intense and violent. in America 26 00:01:58,750 --> 00:02:01,250 Speaker 2: in a way that I really didn't fully understand before 27 00:02:01,470 --> 00:02:04,230 Speaker 2: I put together this show. The country at the time 28 00:02:04,270 --> 00:02:08,130 Speaker 2: was in the middle of a fight between capital and labor, 29 00:02:08,190 --> 00:02:11,410 Speaker 2: between owners and workers. And this fight was a fight 30 00:02:11,430 --> 00:02:13,930 Speaker 2: about ideas. It was a fight about the law. But 31 00:02:13,950 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 2: it was also just a fight, a fight where people 32 00:02:16,670 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 2: were punching each other and hitting each other with sticks 33 00:02:19,740 --> 00:02:24,139 Speaker 2: and shooting each other and throwing literal bombs. And this moment, 34 00:02:24,180 --> 00:02:27,730 Speaker 2: July of 1892, was a one of the most violent 35 00:02:27,910 --> 00:02:31,530 Speaker 2: and pivotal moments in that fight. It was entirely unclear 36 00:02:31,550 --> 00:02:33,350 Speaker 2: which way things were going to go, and it turned 37 00:02:33,410 --> 00:02:36,299 Speaker 2: out to be hugely important for the future of work 38 00:02:36,340 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 2: in America. So we are going to spend not one 39 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 2: but two episodes of Business History talking about this 19th 40 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: century fight between workers and owners. 41 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:47,380 Speaker 1: Worth it. 42 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:49,980 Speaker 2: We're going to talk about the ideas and the movements 43 00:02:50,180 --> 00:02:54,090 Speaker 2: and the laws and the violence. And at the center 44 00:02:54,550 --> 00:02:58,290 Speaker 2: of this story is going to be Andrew Carnegie on 45 00:02:58,370 --> 00:03:00,970 Speaker 2: one side, and on the other side, the workers at 46 00:03:01,169 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 2: his homestead mill in Homestead, Pennsylvania. I want to start here. 47 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 2: I want to get going now. I quote, you don't 48 00:03:09,620 --> 00:03:11,419 Speaker 2: see this coming. I'm going to quote from a recent 49 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,899 Speaker 2: article from Bloomberg, Bloomberg News, Bloomberg Opinion. 50 00:03:15,060 --> 00:03:16,220 Speaker 1: What? Ripped from the headlines. 51 00:03:16,310 --> 00:03:19,350 Speaker 2: Ripped from the headlines. It's a piece by Adrian Wooldridge. 52 00:03:19,370 --> 00:03:21,649 Speaker 2: You've probably read his stuff. He's a very smart writer 53 00:03:21,690 --> 00:03:24,429 Speaker 2: about business and the history of business. And he recently 54 00:03:24,470 --> 00:03:28,350 Speaker 2: wrote this thing, Putting AI in Its Historical Context, talking 55 00:03:28,370 --> 00:03:31,750 Speaker 2: about why the backlash to AI is probably going to 56 00:03:31,790 --> 00:03:35,900 Speaker 2: get bigger. And it's like a perfect setup for these 57 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,300 Speaker 2: next couple episodes about the 1880s and 90s in America. 58 00:03:39,620 --> 00:03:43,820 Speaker 1: Economic revolutions produce grievances for three main reasons. They disrupt 59 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,860 Speaker 1: established ways of doing things, make a small number of 60 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,690 Speaker 1: people exceedingly rich, and deprive workers and citizens of a 61 00:03:50,810 --> 00:03:55,210 Speaker 1: sense of agency. Resentment can smolder unnoticed, but then suddenly 62 00:03:55,270 --> 00:03:59,010 Speaker 1: catch fire in the form of populist movements, wild conspiracies, 63 00:03:59,430 --> 00:04:02,470 Speaker 1: and violent assaults on machines or people. 64 00:04:03,130 --> 00:04:06,290 Speaker 2: I was reading this, thinking about these stories, and I 65 00:04:06,310 --> 00:04:09,690 Speaker 2: was like, check, check, check, check, and check. So to 66 00:04:09,770 --> 00:04:14,790 Speaker 2: start now, let's talk about a guy who got exceedingly 67 00:04:14,870 --> 00:04:18,940 Speaker 2: rich by disrupting established ways of doing things. Andrew Carnegie. 68 00:04:19,529 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: Carnegie who, for a moment... would become the richest man 69 00:04:23,900 --> 00:04:26,220 Speaker 2: in the world. Although now that I've said Carnegie four times, 70 00:04:26,260 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 2: I am a little self-conscious. Like, should we talk about 71 00:04:28,060 --> 00:04:31,430 Speaker 2: the pronunciation? Yeah, here in New York, it's pronounced Carnegie 72 00:04:31,490 --> 00:04:35,830 Speaker 2: Hall and Carnegie Libraries. But I understand that his family 73 00:04:35,850 --> 00:04:39,390 Speaker 2: pronounced it Carnegie. Carnegie. And they say it on NPR 74 00:04:39,410 --> 00:04:42,130 Speaker 2: when the sponsor is some Carnegie Foundation. They say it 75 00:04:42,170 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 2: that way, Carnegie. It's because he was Scottish. And in Scotland, 76 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 2: that's how you say it. How do you get to 77 00:04:48,540 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 2: Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice. So who was he? 78 00:04:53,650 --> 00:04:53,909 Speaker 1: Okay. 79 00:04:53,950 --> 00:04:55,849 Speaker 2: Well, he was born in Scotland. Like I said, his 80 00:04:55,930 --> 00:05:00,210 Speaker 2: dad was a weaver, a skilled weaver, who kind of interestingly, 81 00:05:00,250 --> 00:05:02,450 Speaker 2: in a business history way, was put out of work 82 00:05:02,670 --> 00:05:06,370 Speaker 2: by automation. The first industrial revolution, of course, was largely 83 00:05:06,430 --> 00:05:10,750 Speaker 2: about textiles. So they became very poor. He grew up 84 00:05:10,860 --> 00:05:16,570 Speaker 2: extremely poor. They left Scotland, moved to Pennsylvania. And when 85 00:05:17,060 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 2: Andrew Carnegie was like 12 or 13, he went to 86 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,500 Speaker 2: work in a factory, in a cotton mill. He worked 87 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:25,700 Speaker 2: 12 hours a day, six days a week, which was 88 00:05:25,740 --> 00:05:28,140 Speaker 2: common at the time. When he was a teenager, he 89 00:05:28,180 --> 00:05:32,099 Speaker 2: became a telegraph operator like Thomas Edison. It was kind 90 00:05:32,140 --> 00:05:34,659 Speaker 2: of the thing to do if you were an ambitious 91 00:05:34,700 --> 00:05:38,060 Speaker 2: young man at the time. And that led him to 92 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,539 Speaker 2: a job at the Pennsylvania Railroad. And that was where 93 00:05:41,580 --> 00:05:44,219 Speaker 2: he really got going. He worked his way up and 94 00:05:44,770 --> 00:05:48,850 Speaker 2: insider trading and kickbacks. And what looks to us like 95 00:05:48,910 --> 00:05:51,690 Speaker 2: just rank corruption, maybe it wasn't perceived that way at 96 00:05:51,730 --> 00:05:53,690 Speaker 2: the time, was super common. We talked about this in 97 00:05:53,710 --> 00:05:55,530 Speaker 2: The Gould Show. In The Gould Show, yeah. And so, 98 00:05:55,630 --> 00:05:58,910 Speaker 2: you know, with those kinds of insidery deals, Carnegie got rich. 99 00:05:59,190 --> 00:06:02,060 Speaker 2: He got normal guy rich, not world historically rich like 100 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,539 Speaker 2: he's going to get later. It's steel that makes him 101 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 2: so rich, obviously. He is the steel guy. And the 102 00:06:07,900 --> 00:06:12,870 Speaker 2: Carnegie and steel story fits in more broadly in a 103 00:06:13,210 --> 00:06:15,930 Speaker 2: business history way with this era we're talking about. 104 00:06:15,950 --> 00:06:18,010 Speaker 1: Because steel was a technology. We think of it as 105 00:06:18,029 --> 00:06:20,870 Speaker 1: a basic material now, but there was all sorts of 106 00:06:21,010 --> 00:06:24,030 Speaker 1: innovations about steel and its use in the railroads at 107 00:06:24,050 --> 00:06:24,349 Speaker 1: the time. 108 00:06:24,550 --> 00:06:28,330 Speaker 2: Yes, yes. Steel itself, people had known about it for 109 00:06:28,350 --> 00:06:30,250 Speaker 2: a long time. Steel is just iron with a little 110 00:06:30,290 --> 00:06:33,150 Speaker 2: bit of carbon mixed in. It's better than iron in 111 00:06:33,170 --> 00:06:36,589 Speaker 2: a lot of ways, but it was really expensive to make, 112 00:06:37,270 --> 00:06:41,650 Speaker 2: to turn iron into steel until The 1850s or so, 113 00:06:41,830 --> 00:06:46,710 Speaker 2: when this British inventor named Henry Bessemer figured out a 114 00:06:46,790 --> 00:06:51,970 Speaker 2: more efficient way to make steel. Bessemer basically brought scale 115 00:06:52,190 --> 00:06:57,990 Speaker 2: to steel, made it an industrial process. And Carnegie got 116 00:06:58,130 --> 00:07:01,969 Speaker 2: into the steel business in part because of Bessemer. Carnegie 117 00:07:02,089 --> 00:07:06,650 Speaker 2: went to England in 1872 to sell railroad bonds. He 118 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,070 Speaker 2: was still in the railroad business. He may have actually 119 00:07:09,190 --> 00:07:11,230 Speaker 2: met Bessemer when he was there. In any case, he 120 00:07:11,350 --> 00:07:14,430 Speaker 2: saw this Bessemer process, saw that it worked, saw that 121 00:07:14,450 --> 00:07:17,470 Speaker 2: it was this new way to make steel much more cheaply. 122 00:07:18,010 --> 00:07:21,780 Speaker 2: And he realized that the railroads were going to switch 123 00:07:21,980 --> 00:07:26,380 Speaker 2: from iron to steel for their rails. And as a 124 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,660 Speaker 2: railroad man, he knew that this would be profound. And 125 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,390 Speaker 2: so he gets into the steel business at a great time, 126 00:07:33,430 --> 00:07:35,890 Speaker 2: which is going to work out great for him, as 127 00:07:35,950 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: we know. But importantly, he is not going to be 128 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,110 Speaker 2: making some kind of differentiated branded steel. He's not going 129 00:07:44,130 --> 00:07:47,190 Speaker 2: to be making special steel that people will pay more for. 130 00:07:47,270 --> 00:07:50,130 Speaker 2: He is going to be making commodity steel. 131 00:07:50,230 --> 00:07:52,850 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's not signing his name to every steel beam 132 00:07:52,930 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: just being like, only Carnegie Steel will do, because it's 133 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,460 Speaker 1: a commodity business, which means that it competes mainly on price. 134 00:08:00,540 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: You do not care who made your steel as long 135 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: as it's good enough. You are going to buy from 136 00:08:05,110 --> 00:08:07,750 Speaker 1: anyone who And so what that means is that if 137 00:08:07,790 --> 00:08:11,710 Speaker 1: you are in this business, you, yes, will innovate. You, yes, 138 00:08:11,750 --> 00:08:15,630 Speaker 1: can expand and build giant factories, but you're doing it 139 00:08:16,010 --> 00:08:18,310 Speaker 1: in order to make your product cheaper. You need to 140 00:08:18,350 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: be the cheapest thing in the marketplace or at least 141 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: have deals with people to buy your stuff. 142 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 2: And both of those moves are Carnegie's moves. You know, 143 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: you've got to get to scale and you have to 144 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:33,890 Speaker 2: be out on the technological frontier of, Making the steel 145 00:08:33,990 --> 00:08:36,940 Speaker 2: as cheaply as you can. And Carnegie really got that. 146 00:08:37,690 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 2: The crucial insight he had was don't worry about the price. 147 00:08:42,079 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 2: He is a price taker, as we say. He doesn't 148 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:46,980 Speaker 2: choose what to sell it at. He sells steel for 149 00:08:47,020 --> 00:08:49,100 Speaker 2: the market price. And the market goes up and down. 150 00:08:49,179 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 2: A lot. 151 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:50,500 Speaker 1: A lot. Right. 152 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 2: There's a glut. So the price falls. So people get 153 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,010 Speaker 2: out of the business. So the price goes up. So 154 00:08:55,030 --> 00:08:56,309 Speaker 2: people get back into the business. 155 00:08:56,370 --> 00:08:59,090 Speaker 1: But when the price falls, the companies that survive are 156 00:08:59,110 --> 00:09:00,990 Speaker 1: the ones that can make the product the cheapest. 157 00:09:01,230 --> 00:09:04,929 Speaker 2: So this is Carnegie's insight. He doesn't worry about the price. 158 00:09:04,970 --> 00:09:07,859 Speaker 2: He worries about his cost. And he's willing to spend 159 00:09:07,980 --> 00:09:11,500 Speaker 2: money to become more efficient. He'll use the newest technology 160 00:09:11,540 --> 00:09:14,460 Speaker 2: so that he can get pennies out of his costs. 161 00:09:15,220 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: And once you start looking at your business this way, 162 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 2: you see that one of your big costs is money. 163 00:09:21,910 --> 00:09:25,910 Speaker 2: the wages you are paying your workers. And a particularly 164 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 2: interesting thing about Carnegie, a thing that really, really comes 165 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 2: through in the historical record is he becomes obsessed with 166 00:09:33,260 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 2: paying his workers less at his business. But in his 167 00:09:36,700 --> 00:09:41,530 Speaker 2: public life, he becomes this public figure, gives talks, writes essays. 168 00:09:42,030 --> 00:09:46,490 Speaker 2: In his public life, he has a very different face, 169 00:09:46,510 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 2: a very different persona. Well, he talks about himself as 170 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,030 Speaker 2: coming up you know, in a poor town, working in 171 00:09:53,070 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 2: a factory. All these things are stories we have through 172 00:09:55,130 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 2: him as he says, you know, I am one of 173 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,980 Speaker 2: the people. I was a worker myself. I brought myself, 174 00:10:00,059 --> 00:10:02,980 Speaker 2: bootstrapped myself up from poverty. That part is true. And 175 00:10:03,059 --> 00:10:06,900 Speaker 2: in fact, the most famous thing he writes is this 176 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,050 Speaker 2: essay called The Gospel of Wealth that is about dealing 177 00:10:11,130 --> 00:10:16,020 Speaker 2: with this gap between who he was, poor, and who 178 00:10:16,059 --> 00:10:18,699 Speaker 2: he is, rich. Give us a line. 179 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: The problem of our age is the administration of wealth, 180 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,420 Speaker 1: so that the ties of brotherhood may still bind together 181 00:10:25,490 --> 00:10:28,729 Speaker 1: the rich and poor in harmonious relationships. 182 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,610 Speaker 2: The Ties of Brotherhood. The Ties of Brotherhood, Binding the 183 00:10:32,670 --> 00:10:36,950 Speaker 2: Rich and the Poor. He wrote about the huge inequality 184 00:10:36,990 --> 00:10:40,110 Speaker 2: that had resulted from the industrial development of the U.S. 185 00:10:40,350 --> 00:10:43,220 Speaker 2: And he argued that the solution was not to undo 186 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 2: industrial development or, God forbid, to take the money from 187 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,300 Speaker 2: the rich people. But he said the rich people should 188 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,580 Speaker 2: voluntarily give away most of their money in ways that. 189 00:10:54,470 --> 00:10:57,260 Speaker 1: Help the poor. the best means of benefiting the community 190 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,020 Speaker 1: is to place within its reach the ladders upon which 191 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,770 Speaker 1: the aspiring can rise. Was he full effective altruism? Was 192 00:11:03,790 --> 00:11:05,650 Speaker 1: he like, I'll make the money and then I will 193 00:11:05,670 --> 00:11:06,570 Speaker 1: give it away to the poor? 194 00:11:06,710 --> 00:11:09,130 Speaker 2: Yes, he wouldn't have called it effective altruism, but yes, 195 00:11:09,490 --> 00:11:12,870 Speaker 2: he thought that rich people would be better at deciding 196 00:11:12,929 --> 00:11:14,630 Speaker 2: what to do with it than anybody else. That is 197 00:11:14,710 --> 00:11:17,870 Speaker 2: actually what he thought. And he did, in fact, give 198 00:11:17,929 --> 00:11:21,740 Speaker 2: away most of his money. Famously, he endowed thousands of libraries. 199 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,490 Speaker 2: He created what became Carnegie Mellon University. And he created 200 00:11:26,570 --> 00:11:32,270 Speaker 2: the modern template for rich guy philanthropy. When you look at, say, 201 00:11:32,330 --> 00:11:35,170 Speaker 2: the Gates Foundation today, that is very much in the 202 00:11:35,230 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 2: model of the gospel of wealth. And beyond giving away 203 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 2: his money and talking about giving away money, Carnegie talked 204 00:11:43,260 --> 00:11:48,620 Speaker 2: explicitly about unions. And publicly, he was pro-union. He said 205 00:11:48,660 --> 00:11:52,180 Speaker 2: workers have a right to form unions. He even understood 206 00:11:52,260 --> 00:11:56,700 Speaker 2: when unions fought against companies bringing in replacement workers to 207 00:11:56,740 --> 00:12:00,300 Speaker 2: break up strikes. Here's something he wrote in 1886. 208 00:12:00,300 --> 00:12:03,310 Speaker 1: To expect that one dependent on his daily wage for 209 00:12:03,350 --> 00:12:06,309 Speaker 1: the necessities of life will stand by peaceably and see 210 00:12:06,350 --> 00:12:09,150 Speaker 1: a new man employed in his stead is to expect 211 00:12:09,290 --> 00:12:11,100 Speaker 1: too much. Sounds like a great boss. 212 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 2: Lovely guy. 213 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:13,179 Speaker 1: In public. 214 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:19,069 Speaker 2: In public. The private face, his business face, was quite different. 215 00:12:19,330 --> 00:12:23,330 Speaker 2: Despite his impoverished childhood, despite the, you know, harmonious ties 216 00:12:23,390 --> 00:12:28,630 Speaker 2: of brotherhood, Carnegie really didn't like the fact that he 217 00:12:28,650 --> 00:12:31,620 Speaker 2: had to pay his unionized workers more and more money 218 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,210 Speaker 2: over time. Didn't like that, didn't want to keep doing it, 219 00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 2: and eventually he decided he wasn't going to do it anymore. 220 00:12:39,700 --> 00:13:02,790 Speaker 2: We'll talk about that in a minute. If you listen 221 00:13:02,830 --> 00:13:04,580 Speaker 2: to the ads, the ads are over. If you don't 222 00:13:04,620 --> 00:13:06,540 Speaker 2: want to listen to the ads, you can join Pushkin Plus. 223 00:13:06,820 --> 00:13:09,060 Speaker 1: So we've talked about one side of this story, the 224 00:13:09,100 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: rich side, capital, as we call it, in the business business. 225 00:13:12,780 --> 00:13:16,100 Speaker 2: And we have talked a lot about capital on this show. 226 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 2: We have. Entrepreneurs are capital. So let's talk now about 227 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,630 Speaker 2: the workers. Let's talk now about labor and what it 228 00:13:24,690 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 2: was to be a worker in this time, the 1880s, 1890s. 229 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,780 Speaker 2: It was a wild time for labor, as we'll talk 230 00:13:31,830 --> 00:13:34,290 Speaker 2: about a lot on the shows. But first, let's talk 231 00:13:34,309 --> 00:13:36,770 Speaker 2: about what it was to work in a factory. What 232 00:13:36,790 --> 00:13:41,230 Speaker 2: it was was terrible, brutal. People often worked 12-hour days, 233 00:13:41,710 --> 00:13:43,650 Speaker 2: six days a week, sometimes seven days a week. 234 00:13:43,870 --> 00:13:46,570 Speaker 1: And that's in a normal factory. We're talking here about 235 00:13:46,870 --> 00:13:47,550 Speaker 1: steel plants. 236 00:13:48,070 --> 00:13:52,230 Speaker 2: Giant furnaces, molten metal, 100 degrees in a lot of 237 00:13:52,290 --> 00:13:55,030 Speaker 2: parts of the factory. One guy said he lost 40 238 00:13:55,030 --> 00:13:57,430 Speaker 2: pounds when he started the job because he sweat so much, 239 00:13:57,580 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 2: filled up his boots with sweat. And it was so dangerous. 240 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: The main steel plant we're going to be talking about 241 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,380 Speaker 2: is the Homestead Mill, the Homestead plant. And just looking 242 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,670 Speaker 2: at that one, you find these newspaper stories. Like here's 243 00:14:13,730 --> 00:14:15,329 Speaker 2: one from 1889. 244 00:14:15,330 --> 00:14:19,050 Speaker 1: Buried under molten metal is the headline. A ladle containing 245 00:14:19,050 --> 00:14:22,260 Speaker 1: 30 tons of molten steel boiled over late in the 246 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,780 Speaker 1: afternoon at Carnegie's Homestead Steelworks. 247 00:14:25,300 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: Another story. 248 00:14:26,060 --> 00:14:30,170 Speaker 1: Explosion of hot metal. Explosion of hot metal killed another 249 00:14:30,230 --> 00:14:32,430 Speaker 1: six people. A theme, hot metal. 250 00:14:32,450 --> 00:14:37,270 Speaker 2: It's really deadly. And I will note these newspaper stories, 251 00:14:37,290 --> 00:14:41,890 Speaker 2: they're not giant banner headlines. They're tiny little three paragraph 252 00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:45,670 Speaker 2: stories because this kind of thing happened all the time. 253 00:14:45,990 --> 00:14:47,490 Speaker 1: And if you've ever been in a steel mill, like 254 00:14:47,550 --> 00:14:49,070 Speaker 1: they are moving this. 255 00:14:48,950 --> 00:14:51,590 Speaker 2: Hot metal around. And in this era, you have guys 256 00:14:51,670 --> 00:14:56,700 Speaker 2: like just walking unsecured on little catwalks over pools of 257 00:14:56,750 --> 00:15:00,750 Speaker 2: molten metal. Occasionally, of course, they would fall in and die. 258 00:15:00,790 --> 00:15:04,310 Speaker 2: This is called making your own mold. You know, no OSHA, 259 00:15:04,330 --> 00:15:10,610 Speaker 2: no HR, no vacation time, just work, just brutal physical 260 00:15:10,670 --> 00:15:14,310 Speaker 2: work and a few dollars a week in pay. And 261 00:15:14,490 --> 00:15:16,930 Speaker 2: if we zoom out a little bit here and look 262 00:15:16,980 --> 00:15:20,940 Speaker 2: at the history more broadly, one of the really interesting 263 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:25,500 Speaker 2: things about this moment is this whole thing is new. 264 00:15:26,690 --> 00:15:30,370 Speaker 2: A giant company with multiple factories, with thousands of workers 265 00:15:30,430 --> 00:15:33,510 Speaker 2: at one factory. This is new. If you go back 266 00:15:34,350 --> 00:15:37,870 Speaker 2: a generation, a couple generations, there are not big private 267 00:15:38,030 --> 00:15:41,650 Speaker 2: industrial firms like this. There are little partnerships. There are 268 00:15:41,730 --> 00:15:46,530 Speaker 2: family businesses. There are, you know, masters and journeymen and apprentices. 269 00:15:46,820 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: The division between capital and labor was not as severe 270 00:15:50,380 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: as we see. 271 00:15:50,780 --> 00:15:53,340 Speaker 2: It was not as vast. Yeah. And, you know, you 272 00:15:53,420 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: did see 50 years before this. isolated things that look 273 00:15:58,900 --> 00:16:04,420 Speaker 2: like labor doing stuff. You would see sometimes journeymen would 274 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: organize against their masters in kind of wildcat strikes. They 275 00:16:07,580 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 2: were actually tried for conspiracy. Interesting, because they were conspiring sometimes. 276 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,730 Speaker 2: And in Lowell, Massachusetts, very early industrialization in the U.S., 277 00:16:16,790 --> 00:16:20,650 Speaker 2: these teenage girls working at textile mills would sometimes spontaneously 278 00:16:20,690 --> 00:16:25,250 Speaker 2: walk out. But you didn't get like a big national 279 00:16:25,490 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 2: union until After the Civil War, the first big national 280 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:36,260 Speaker 2: labor union was called the National Labor Union. Goes in 281 00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:39,590 Speaker 2: our list of old businesses that said what they were. 282 00:16:39,970 --> 00:16:42,750 Speaker 1: General Electric, American Can. Just tell us what you do. 283 00:16:42,770 --> 00:16:45,650 Speaker 2: National Lead. Don't hear so much about that one anymore. 284 00:16:45,890 --> 00:16:46,670 Speaker 1: Business History. 285 00:16:47,630 --> 00:16:49,740 Speaker 2: Show about the history of business. There was also one 286 00:16:49,780 --> 00:16:51,620 Speaker 2: of the early labor groups, kind of on the other 287 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,020 Speaker 2: end of the name spectrum, was the Noble and Holy 288 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:55,820 Speaker 2: Order of the Knights of Labor. 289 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: Ooh, sounds like a secret society, mystical. 290 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,270 Speaker 2: Casting spells over molten metal, I don't know. And then 291 00:17:02,330 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 2: you had specialized trade unions. like, crucially for our story, 292 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:14,020 Speaker 2: the Amalgamated Association of Iron and Steel Workers, the AAISW. 293 00:17:14,179 --> 00:17:16,930 Speaker 1: I don't know why you need amalgamated and association. Doesn't 294 00:17:16,950 --> 00:17:18,090 Speaker 1: that seem like it's saying the same thing? 295 00:17:18,109 --> 00:17:20,190 Speaker 2: It's too many words. There had been a bunch of 296 00:17:20,250 --> 00:17:22,810 Speaker 2: different unions before. One of them had Vulcan in the name, 297 00:17:22,890 --> 00:17:23,710 Speaker 2: which I really like. 298 00:17:23,869 --> 00:17:27,050 Speaker 1: I wonder if the amalgamated and the association were different. 299 00:17:27,090 --> 00:17:29,409 Speaker 1: So they're like, we are now the amalgamated association. 300 00:17:29,430 --> 00:17:33,430 Speaker 2: This was the union that represented the skilled workers at Homestead. 301 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,940 Speaker 2: And so you had these different unions, and they disagreed 302 00:17:36,980 --> 00:17:39,380 Speaker 2: with each other about a lot. There were factions. But 303 00:17:39,540 --> 00:17:45,100 Speaker 2: one thing they converged on was fighting for the eight-hour workday. 304 00:17:46,060 --> 00:17:48,419 Speaker 2: If they had bumper stickers back then, it would have 305 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,660 Speaker 2: been a great bumper sticker. Eight-hour day. At this point, 306 00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:53,859 Speaker 2: the 10-hour day was common. Twelve hours was not unusual. 307 00:17:54,740 --> 00:17:59,740 Speaker 2: And in 1886, there is this moment. It ends up 308 00:17:59,770 --> 00:18:03,140 Speaker 2: being hugely important. When the different unions all come together 309 00:18:03,180 --> 00:18:05,460 Speaker 2: and say, we are going to have a national strike, 310 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: lots of unions, lots of workers, cities around the country, 311 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,350 Speaker 2: a national strike for the eight-hour workday. We're going to 312 00:18:13,369 --> 00:18:14,910 Speaker 2: do it on May 1st. 313 00:18:15,690 --> 00:18:19,030 Speaker 1: And was this May 1st, International Workers' Day at the time? 314 00:18:19,050 --> 00:18:20,610 Speaker 2: May Day, like it is today, big for the communists. 315 00:18:20,710 --> 00:18:23,290 Speaker 2: It was not. It became that in part because of 316 00:18:23,410 --> 00:18:24,850 Speaker 2: what's going to happen in 1886. 317 00:18:24,850 --> 00:18:25,580 Speaker 1: Okay. 318 00:18:25,859 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 2: So this happens, in fact, around the country every Hundreds 319 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 2: of thousands of workers go on strike on May 1st. 320 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,620 Speaker 2: And Chicago was the heart of it. Chicago, this, you know, 321 00:18:35,140 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 2: growing like crazy industrial worker city. Tens of thousands of 322 00:18:40,740 --> 00:18:43,949 Speaker 2: workers went on strike in Chicago that day. The meatpacking 323 00:18:44,010 --> 00:18:47,530 Speaker 2: plants shut down. The trains stopped running. And at the 324 00:18:47,609 --> 00:18:51,630 Speaker 2: McCormick factory, where they made farm equipment, the McCormick Reapers, 325 00:18:51,670 --> 00:18:54,710 Speaker 2: this famous piece of farm equipment from the 1800s, At 326 00:18:54,730 --> 00:18:58,109 Speaker 2: the McCormick factory, the workers stayed on strike and management 327 00:18:58,250 --> 00:19:03,300 Speaker 2: brought in workers to replace the strikers. Common tactic at 328 00:19:03,340 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 2: the time. And on May 3rd, the union workers attacked 329 00:19:09,180 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: the replacement workers and then the police started attacking the 330 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,980 Speaker 2: union workers. They started hitting them and shooting. The police 331 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:24,390 Speaker 2: started shooting and the police killed two union workers. Now, 332 00:19:25,260 --> 00:19:28,660 Speaker 2: This was rather common at the time. As I mentioned, 333 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,300 Speaker 2: this was a period of a lot of violence, a 334 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 2: lot of, we would call it unrest. But unrest is 335 00:19:34,020 --> 00:19:36,750 Speaker 2: this kind of sanitized word. People were fighting. There were 336 00:19:36,810 --> 00:19:39,970 Speaker 2: physical fights over this. And so what makes this moment 337 00:19:40,010 --> 00:19:42,629 Speaker 2: famous is not this fight. It's the reaction to it. 338 00:19:42,730 --> 00:19:45,389 Speaker 2: It's what happens next. And do you know who is 339 00:19:45,430 --> 00:19:48,010 Speaker 2: at the center of what happens next? I kind of 340 00:19:48,030 --> 00:19:48,850 Speaker 2: hope it's the anarchists. 341 00:19:48,869 --> 00:19:52,030 Speaker 1: The anarchists! The anarchists! So let's talk about the I 342 00:19:52,050 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: would like to talk about the anarchists because I have 343 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: this impression these days when someone says they're an anarchist, 344 00:19:58,020 --> 00:20:01,150 Speaker 1: they read some books somewhere, but they're solo actors saying, 345 00:20:01,190 --> 00:20:06,230 Speaker 1: I want to destroy the government. But back then, Anarchism 346 00:20:06,330 --> 00:20:08,949 Speaker 1: was an actual philosophy? It was an organization? 347 00:20:09,330 --> 00:20:12,149 Speaker 2: It was a thing. They had had a big conference 348 00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:14,950 Speaker 2: in London a few years before this. 349 00:20:15,030 --> 00:20:17,050 Speaker 1: If you have a conference with anarchy in its name, 350 00:20:17,070 --> 00:20:22,150 Speaker 1: you're an anarchist. There in Chicago, where we're talking about, 351 00:20:22,230 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: there were at least two anarchist newspapers, one in English, 352 00:20:25,740 --> 00:20:27,300 Speaker 1: one in German, because there were a lot of immigrant 353 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: German workers. 354 00:20:28,700 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 2: So it was real. It was a real movement. It 355 00:20:31,180 --> 00:20:35,950 Speaker 2: wasn't just random, angry young men. They had a set 356 00:20:35,970 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 2: of beliefs. And of course, they disagreed amongst themselves. But 357 00:20:38,420 --> 00:20:44,020 Speaker 2: the basic idea was the anarchists wanted a revolution to 358 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 2: overthrow the government. But unlike the socialists and the communists, 359 00:20:48,340 --> 00:20:52,459 Speaker 2: the anarchists did not want a dictatorship of the proletariat 360 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,780 Speaker 2: because they thought it would be heavy on the dictatorship 361 00:20:55,859 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 2: and not so much about the proletariat. 362 00:20:57,660 --> 00:20:58,810 Speaker 1: They were right, not wrong. Yeah. 363 00:20:59,470 --> 00:21:02,050 Speaker 2: What they wanted was to overthrow the government and replace 364 00:21:02,109 --> 00:21:05,290 Speaker 2: it not with a new government, but with Sort of 365 00:21:05,410 --> 00:21:08,350 Speaker 2: no government. They wanted people to kind of organize into 366 00:21:09,010 --> 00:21:14,300 Speaker 2: voluntary communes and collective smaller groups. Hence the anarchy. Hence 367 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,139 Speaker 2: this idea of anarchy. And the way to get to 368 00:21:17,180 --> 00:21:21,020 Speaker 2: this world, a lot of anarchists thought, was violence. Violence. 369 00:21:21,500 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: Violence. 370 00:21:22,369 --> 00:21:26,470 Speaker 2: Violence to start the revolution. Anarchist newspapers actually wrote how-tos 371 00:21:26,530 --> 00:21:30,109 Speaker 2: about making bombs from dynamite, another new technology. 372 00:21:30,270 --> 00:21:33,959 Speaker 1: So it wasn't just the result of their passion for anarchy. 373 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:34,859 Speaker 1: This is part of the plan. 374 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 2: Yes, violence is part of the plan. They had this phrase, 375 00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 2: propaganda of the deed. The idea that some high-profile act 376 00:21:43,770 --> 00:21:48,010 Speaker 2: like an assassination... could trigger the revolution. And in fact, 377 00:21:48,030 --> 00:21:52,490 Speaker 2: the guy who's going to assassinate President McKinley in 1901 378 00:21:52,490 --> 00:21:55,750 Speaker 2: said he was inspired by the anarchists. One of the 379 00:21:55,850 --> 00:21:59,070 Speaker 2: anarchist leaders in Chicago, remember this city that we're talking 380 00:21:59,090 --> 00:22:03,189 Speaker 2: about for this moment in 1886, was named August Spies. 381 00:22:04,290 --> 00:22:07,230 Speaker 2: He'd come to America from what's now part of Germany 382 00:22:07,250 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 2: and worked as an upholsterer, and ultimately became an anarchist. 383 00:22:11,340 --> 00:22:15,380 Speaker 2: By this point, was editing one of the local anarchist newspapers. 384 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 2: So it's May 3rd, that day when the workers were 385 00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:25,010 Speaker 2: killed outside the McCormick factory. And Spies writes this flyer, essentially, 386 00:22:25,090 --> 00:22:27,270 Speaker 2: to be printed up and spread around Chicago. 387 00:22:27,369 --> 00:22:30,649 Speaker 1: It's useful to have reporters on your side. Revenge is 388 00:22:30,690 --> 00:22:34,290 Speaker 1: what the flyer says in giant letters with an exclamation point. 389 00:22:34,850 --> 00:22:39,220 Speaker 1: Underneath that, working men, comma, two arms, exclamation point, exclamation point, 390 00:22:39,420 --> 00:22:44,050 Speaker 1: exclamation point. Your masters sent out their bloodhounds, the police. 391 00:22:44,350 --> 00:22:47,290 Speaker 1: They killed six of your brothers at McCormick's this afternoon. 392 00:22:47,570 --> 00:22:50,690 Speaker 1: They killed the poor wretches because they, like you, had 393 00:22:50,730 --> 00:22:54,010 Speaker 1: the courage to disobey the supreme will of your bosses. 394 00:22:54,450 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: They killed them because they dared to ask for the 395 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,020 Speaker 1: shortening of the hours of toil. They killed them to 396 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,540 Speaker 1: show you, free American citizens, that you must be satisfied 397 00:23:04,619 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: and contented with whatever your bosses condescend to allow you 398 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,530 Speaker 1: or you will get killed. That is good writing. 399 00:23:11,670 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 2: It's good writing. Okay, now read the last couple sentences. Okay. 400 00:23:16,780 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: If you are men, if you are the sons of 401 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: your grandsires who have shed their blood to free you, 402 00:23:22,340 --> 00:23:25,260 Speaker 1: then you will rise in your might, Hercules, and destroy 403 00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:28,859 Speaker 1: the hideous monster that seeks to destroy you. Two arms, 404 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:29,419 Speaker 1: we call you. 405 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:30,300 Speaker 2: Two arms! 406 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:32,820 Speaker 1: And then it's signed, your brothers. 407 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 2: I'll be honest, I got goosebumps. It's good. It's good. 408 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 2: It's very, it feels like this is the moment. 409 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: Yes. 410 00:23:40,380 --> 00:23:42,780 Speaker 2: It is happening right this minute. 411 00:23:42,940 --> 00:23:46,340 Speaker 1: And you can picture, you see this on a lamppost, 412 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:47,140 Speaker 1: a literal post. 413 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: They're posting it. They're putting it on the post. This 414 00:23:49,619 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 2: is the post of the 1800s. And so the day 415 00:23:53,770 --> 00:23:58,649 Speaker 2: after this, May 4th, the anarchists hold a rally, a 416 00:23:58,690 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 2: rally at Haymarket Square in Chicago. A few anarchists spoke. 417 00:24:02,859 --> 00:24:05,590 Speaker 2: They got up on a wagon in this square and 418 00:24:05,690 --> 00:24:08,990 Speaker 2: spoke to a crowd that I've seen estimated at hundreds 419 00:24:09,070 --> 00:24:13,270 Speaker 2: to a few thousand people. There's not a verbatim transcript 420 00:24:13,290 --> 00:24:14,729 Speaker 2: of what they said, but it seems like it was 421 00:24:14,830 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 2: slightly less aggressive than that post. More arm yourselves to 422 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,859 Speaker 2: defend yourselves and less destroy the hideous monster. But we 423 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 2: don't know for sure. In any case, what we know 424 00:24:25,460 --> 00:24:28,830 Speaker 2: is at some point it started to rain heavily. People 425 00:24:28,850 --> 00:24:31,250 Speaker 2: in the crowd started to drift away. And the police, 426 00:24:31,810 --> 00:24:34,649 Speaker 2: who had been standing by, moved in to disperse the 427 00:24:34,690 --> 00:24:39,700 Speaker 2: speakers and the crowd. And then someone in the crowd 428 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:45,300 Speaker 2: threw a bomb toward the police. The bomb exploded. The 429 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:50,580 Speaker 2: police started shooting. And several people were killed, including seven 430 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,100 Speaker 2: police officers and at least four people in the crowd. 431 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,659 Speaker 2: Nobody ever found out who threw the bomb. But the 432 00:24:58,700 --> 00:25:05,409 Speaker 2: next day, Spies was arrested along with seven other anarchists. 433 00:25:06,670 --> 00:25:10,129 Speaker 2: And to be clear, nobody accused them of throwing the bomb. 434 00:25:11,010 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 2: But they were charged as accessories to murder. 435 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: They inspired the bomb thrower is what the argument is. 436 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,780 Speaker 2: That was the argument. And in fact, really, when you 437 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,830 Speaker 2: look at the trial transcript, the argument was actually bigger 438 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,429 Speaker 2: than they inspired the bomb thrower. There's this line here. 439 00:25:25,770 --> 00:25:28,939 Speaker 2: From the prosecutor that I think really tells us what 440 00:25:28,980 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: the trial was actually about. 441 00:25:30,340 --> 00:25:34,179 Speaker 1: Law is on trial. Anarchy is on trial. Gentlemen of 442 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: the jury, convict these men, make examples of them, hang them, 443 00:25:38,380 --> 00:25:43,350 Speaker 1: and you save our institutions, our society. So really playing 444 00:25:43,390 --> 00:25:45,830 Speaker 1: on the fear of society disintegrating. 445 00:25:45,950 --> 00:25:46,790 Speaker 2: Very clear. 446 00:25:46,910 --> 00:25:47,110 Speaker 1: Yeah. 447 00:25:47,170 --> 00:25:51,900 Speaker 2: Very clear. Make examples of them. The jury did make 448 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 2: examples of them. Spies and his co-defendants were convicted. Four 449 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:02,659 Speaker 2: of them were executed. Robert, give us Spies' last words 450 00:26:02,850 --> 00:26:03,699 Speaker 2: on his way to the gallows. 451 00:26:03,940 --> 00:26:06,450 Speaker 1: The time will come when our silence will be more 452 00:26:06,530 --> 00:26:08,810 Speaker 1: powerful than the voices you strangle today. 453 00:26:09,950 --> 00:26:13,670 Speaker 2: And then two of the other men who were also 454 00:26:14,010 --> 00:26:18,410 Speaker 2: hanged had simpler last words. They said hurrah for anarchism. 455 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: We'll have more after the break. 456 00:26:22,540 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 2: Robert Smith, we're. 457 00:26:23,540 --> 00:26:25,380 Speaker 1: Back from the break, and it's time now to turn 458 00:26:25,460 --> 00:26:49,510 Speaker 1: our attention to Homestead. Homestead Steel Mill. 459 00:26:49,750 --> 00:26:51,830 Speaker 2: A factory that's going to be at the center of 460 00:26:51,869 --> 00:26:53,909 Speaker 2: the show for the rest of the episode today and 461 00:26:53,970 --> 00:26:54,470 Speaker 2: next week. 462 00:26:54,690 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: It's in western Pennsylvania. It's a few miles from Pittsburgh, 463 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: which is the center of the steel industry at the time. 464 00:26:59,820 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 2: It's on the Monongahela River. And to call it a factory, 465 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,900 Speaker 2: you know, I hear factory and I think of a building. 466 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,100 Speaker 2: But this is much more than that. It's a complex. 467 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,300 Speaker 2: It's a compound. It's many buildings, some of which are 468 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,820 Speaker 2: hundreds of feet long. And there are furnaces and mills 469 00:27:17,950 --> 00:27:18,949 Speaker 2: and machine shops. 470 00:27:19,230 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: And railroad tracks everywhere because you're bringing in raw materials 471 00:27:22,820 --> 00:27:26,820 Speaker 1: via the railroad and you're taking out steel via the railroad. Plus, 472 00:27:26,900 --> 00:27:29,300 Speaker 1: you're taking in raw materials from the river, too. So 473 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: they have a port there, you know, essentially a dock. 474 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,100 Speaker 2: And railroads within the compound because they're moving around these 475 00:27:36,300 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 2: giant ingots of steel. So it's a huge, huge industrial complex. 476 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 2: Thousands of people who work there. And it is in 477 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 2: the town of Homestead, Pennsylvania, which is a town that 478 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 2: exists because of the mill, a town where everybody who 479 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,300 Speaker 2: lives there works at the mill or is in the 480 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,609 Speaker 2: family of somebody who works at the mill, or maybe 481 00:27:56,650 --> 00:27:58,910 Speaker 2: a few of the people run the, you know, tavern 482 00:27:58,950 --> 00:28:01,050 Speaker 2: selling beer to the guys who work at the mill. 483 00:28:01,570 --> 00:28:04,169 Speaker 2: The people who work there, a lot of them are 484 00:28:04,210 --> 00:28:06,810 Speaker 2: working 12 hour days. There's two shifts. So the mill 485 00:28:06,859 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 2: is running 24 hours a day. And something like a 486 00:28:11,420 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 2: third of the workers were members of this union that 487 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:20,070 Speaker 2: I mentioned that has one too many letters, the AAISW. 488 00:28:20,230 --> 00:28:22,250 Speaker 1: Both amalgamated and associated. Yes. 489 00:28:22,670 --> 00:28:26,270 Speaker 2: And the guys in the union make a lot more 490 00:28:26,330 --> 00:28:30,140 Speaker 2: money than the other workers in the mill. Partly they're 491 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,310 Speaker 2: skilled workers. They're skilled workers. This is a union of 492 00:28:33,350 --> 00:28:36,730 Speaker 2: skilled workers, but also because they have made this deal. 493 00:28:36,770 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 2: The union has negotiated this deal with management. And under 494 00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 2: the deal, they get paid based in part on output, 495 00:28:44,860 --> 00:28:47,940 Speaker 2: on how much steel the mill produced. 496 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: Which makes sense. It aligns incentives, as they say. You 497 00:28:53,380 --> 00:28:56,430 Speaker 1: want your mill to create more steel. So you want 498 00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:58,590 Speaker 1: your workers to be invested in that. And you want 499 00:28:58,610 --> 00:29:00,450 Speaker 1: their pay to depend on how much steel goes out 500 00:29:00,470 --> 00:29:01,550 Speaker 1: the door. Makes total sense. 501 00:29:02,130 --> 00:29:05,950 Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of the modern version of this is employee 502 00:29:06,010 --> 00:29:09,150 Speaker 2: stock purchase programs or stock options, right? In that way, 503 00:29:09,770 --> 00:29:12,030 Speaker 2: the employees have an interest in the stock of the 504 00:29:12,070 --> 00:29:15,070 Speaker 2: company going up. That is directly aligning them with capital. 505 00:29:15,270 --> 00:29:18,209 Speaker 2: That is making them capital, essentially. So this is the 506 00:29:18,250 --> 00:29:21,190 Speaker 2: deal in place at the factory when Carnegie buys it 507 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 2: in 1883. And remember, Carnegie's thing, his strategy, is putting... 508 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,060 Speaker 2: money into his factories, bringing in new technology to increase 509 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 2: efficiency and drive up output. And this is what he 510 00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:40,739 Speaker 2: does at Homestead. He's modernizing the factory, bringing it to 511 00:29:40,780 --> 00:29:44,990 Speaker 2: the frontier of technology, making more steel. And as he 512 00:29:45,070 --> 00:29:48,090 Speaker 2: is doing this, output is going up by design. So 513 00:29:48,190 --> 00:29:50,670 Speaker 2: for the workers in the union who are paid based 514 00:29:50,750 --> 00:29:53,940 Speaker 2: on output, their pay is going up. This is great. 515 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,420 Speaker 2: Everybody's incentives are aligned. Carnegie doesn't think that. 516 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: Because there is a flaw in this particular alignment of incentives, 517 00:30:03,140 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: which is because in the steel industry, you depend on 518 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,900 Speaker 1: the price of steel. And sometimes there's too much steel around. 519 00:30:08,940 --> 00:30:11,740 Speaker 1: There is a glut of steel and the price goes down. 520 00:30:12,390 --> 00:30:15,030 Speaker 1: And there's a danger that the Carnegie mill starts to 521 00:30:15,070 --> 00:30:19,110 Speaker 1: lose money. But the workers, the workers are paid to 522 00:30:19,150 --> 00:30:21,190 Speaker 1: make more steel, which makes the glut worse. 523 00:30:21,690 --> 00:30:26,660 Speaker 2: You're like Andrew Carnegie is inhabiting your body making this point. 524 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: I mean, right. Like it's, you know, you're just trying 525 00:30:29,380 --> 00:30:30,380 Speaker 1: to make money as Carnegie. 526 00:30:30,980 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 2: You really are trying to make money. 527 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: A lot of money. 528 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,870 Speaker 2: As much money as you can. So this is a 529 00:30:35,910 --> 00:30:38,830 Speaker 2: problem for Carnegie, the fluctuating price of steel against the 530 00:30:38,890 --> 00:30:41,730 Speaker 2: increasing wages of the workers. I don't think he ever 531 00:30:41,770 --> 00:30:44,910 Speaker 2: lost money, but it wasn't making as much as he wanted. 532 00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:50,470 Speaker 2: And so in 1889, Carnegie decided the workers shouldn't just 533 00:30:50,610 --> 00:30:54,630 Speaker 2: be paid based on output. Their pay should be a 534 00:30:54,950 --> 00:30:58,990 Speaker 2: sliding scale based on the price of steel so that 535 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,380 Speaker 2: when the price of steel went down, the workers' wages 536 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,180 Speaker 2: would go down, at least to a point. There would 537 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,460 Speaker 2: be a floor, but their wages would fluctuate with the 538 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:07,100 Speaker 2: price of steel. 539 00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: Which, if you're a worker... you can understand, you know, 540 00:31:10,860 --> 00:31:13,420 Speaker 1: you want your plant to succeed, but you do not 541 00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:16,020 Speaker 1: like to see your wages go down. No worker wants 542 00:31:16,060 --> 00:31:19,380 Speaker 1: to see their wages go down. Also, Carnegie wanted to 543 00:31:19,420 --> 00:31:23,140 Speaker 1: take away some of the control, basically, that workers had 544 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: over how work flowed at the plant and who worked 545 00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: on what job. 546 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 2: He presents this to the union. And, you know, this 547 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,660 Speaker 2: is just a few years after the Haymarket Riot, after 548 00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:37,140 Speaker 2: the execution of the anarchists, and this steelworkers union at 549 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:43,130 Speaker 2: Homestead is very much not anarchist. They are moderates of 550 00:31:43,170 --> 00:31:45,850 Speaker 2: the side. You know, they are making more money. They 551 00:31:46,110 --> 00:31:49,810 Speaker 2: don't want a violent revolution. They just want decent pay 552 00:31:50,050 --> 00:31:53,570 Speaker 2: and reasonable hours and the basic things that unions today 553 00:31:54,170 --> 00:31:57,530 Speaker 2: argue for. And in fact, the Steelworkers Union here is 554 00:31:57,650 --> 00:32:01,730 Speaker 2: part of the newly formed American Federation of Labor, the AFL, 555 00:32:01,790 --> 00:32:05,590 Speaker 2: which still exists today as the AFL-CIO. And includes lots 556 00:32:05,670 --> 00:32:07,030 Speaker 2: of big mainstream unions. 557 00:32:07,290 --> 00:32:11,660 Speaker 1: United Auto Workers, American Federation of Teachers. We ourselves at 558 00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: Planet Money were members of SAG-AFTRA. 559 00:32:13,940 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 2: So this is where the steelworkers union at Carnegie's homestand 560 00:32:17,580 --> 00:32:20,830 Speaker 2: plant is coming from at this time. Carnegie brings them 561 00:32:20,870 --> 00:32:25,250 Speaker 2: this proposal. And they vote it down unanimously. They say 562 00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:28,290 Speaker 2: that to agree to Carnegie's proposal, and this is the quote, 563 00:32:28,770 --> 00:32:31,290 Speaker 2: would be giving up everything that is dear to the 564 00:32:31,350 --> 00:32:35,170 Speaker 2: heart of every true working man. So now the contract 565 00:32:35,230 --> 00:32:39,610 Speaker 2: is about to expire. The union has rejected Carnegie's offer. 566 00:32:40,190 --> 00:32:43,290 Speaker 2: Everybody knows what's coming next because there is a playbook here. 567 00:32:43,310 --> 00:32:45,350 Speaker 2: It's a playbook Carnegie has used before. It's a playbook 568 00:32:45,390 --> 00:32:49,910 Speaker 2: lots of owners use. And that is you close the plant, 569 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 2: shut it down. This is called a lockout, like a 570 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,570 Speaker 2: reverse strike. And then you bring in replacement workers, workers 571 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,810 Speaker 2: who are not in the union to do the job. 572 00:33:01,950 --> 00:33:04,050 Speaker 2: And so Carnegie, he doesn't want to negotiate with the 573 00:33:04,150 --> 00:33:06,250 Speaker 2: union anymore. He wants to get rid of the union. 574 00:33:06,310 --> 00:33:09,530 Speaker 2: He wants the union to cease to exist. So it's 575 00:33:09,730 --> 00:33:15,790 Speaker 2: July 1889. The plant has shut down. And on July 10th, 576 00:33:16,290 --> 00:33:19,470 Speaker 2: the guys in the union in Homestead get word that, 577 00:33:19,610 --> 00:33:23,830 Speaker 2: in fact, replacement workers are on their way into town. 578 00:33:23,870 --> 00:33:26,750 Speaker 2: They're on the train. More than a thousand people from 579 00:33:26,790 --> 00:33:29,130 Speaker 2: town rush down to the train station. 580 00:33:29,390 --> 00:33:30,390 Speaker 1: More than there is in the union. 581 00:33:30,410 --> 00:33:33,150 Speaker 2: More than there is in the union because the town 582 00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:36,630 Speaker 2: of Homestead is the workers and their families. And everybody 583 00:33:36,670 --> 00:33:39,750 Speaker 2: at this point is sort of banded together by the lockout, 584 00:33:39,790 --> 00:33:41,990 Speaker 2: by the fact that the factory is closed. Nobody is working. 585 00:33:42,190 --> 00:33:47,790 Speaker 2: The train pulls in and there are 31 replacement workers, 586 00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 2: an employment agent who has hired the workers. And the 587 00:33:52,660 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 2: county sheriff there to escort them. And this crowd of 588 00:33:57,020 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 2: angry steelworkers and their families standing outside the train. So 589 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 2: the crowd lets the sheriff walk past. And then they 590 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,050 Speaker 2: block the way for everybody else. 591 00:34:07,070 --> 00:34:08,850 Speaker 1: They close in around the replacement workers. 592 00:34:09,310 --> 00:34:11,509 Speaker 2: So now if you're like a replacement worker, you're just 593 00:34:11,569 --> 00:34:16,410 Speaker 2: some guy. The sheriff is suddenly gone and you're surrounded 594 00:34:16,510 --> 00:34:19,410 Speaker 2: by lots of angry steelworkers. 595 00:34:20,150 --> 00:34:21,170 Speaker 1: You just wanted a day's work. 596 00:34:21,510 --> 00:34:24,739 Speaker 2: You just wanted a day's work. So a bunch of 597 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,220 Speaker 2: the replacement workers run away. The crowd, the homesteaders, actually 598 00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:32,219 Speaker 2: catch a few of the would-be replacement workers and beat 599 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 2: them up. And they also catch the employment agent. And 600 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 2: it seems like they were particularly violent with him. A 601 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,900 Speaker 2: story from the Times said that his face was almost 602 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,500 Speaker 2: unrecognizable from the blows he had received. 603 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,870 Speaker 1: I'm surprised by how violent it turned so quickly. You've 604 00:34:51,890 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: got mothers and children in the crowd. You're talking about 605 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,020 Speaker 1: 31 replacement workers. Not good, but not an army coming in. 606 00:34:59,460 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: It's almost as if there's something from the time, the 607 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: rhetoric from Haymarket even, is coming to make this seem 608 00:35:07,620 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: like it is a bigger deal. Like this is another 609 00:35:09,780 --> 00:35:12,310 Speaker 1: moment where they feel like the course of labor history 610 00:35:12,350 --> 00:35:12,890 Speaker 1: is changing. 611 00:35:13,210 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 2: I don't think it's just the rhetoric because Just a 612 00:35:17,620 --> 00:35:20,790 Speaker 2: year earlier, Carnegie had done something like this and broken 613 00:35:20,830 --> 00:35:23,589 Speaker 2: the union at another plant not far away. I think 614 00:35:23,650 --> 00:35:27,890 Speaker 2: these workers know this is not a negotiation tactic in 615 00:35:27,930 --> 00:35:29,950 Speaker 2: the sense of, oh, I'm going to pay you a 616 00:35:29,969 --> 00:35:33,990 Speaker 2: little less. This is, I'm bringing in workers so that 617 00:35:34,070 --> 00:35:38,299 Speaker 2: your union ceases to exist. And so I think these 618 00:35:38,340 --> 00:35:43,100 Speaker 2: workers correctly realize that this is an existential situation for 619 00:35:43,140 --> 00:35:46,370 Speaker 2: their union and It's going to be profoundly bad for 620 00:35:46,430 --> 00:35:51,490 Speaker 2: them if Carnegie wins. And they will do everything they 621 00:35:51,590 --> 00:35:53,140 Speaker 2: can to fight. 622 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: And Carnegie's looking at how much profit he's going to 623 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,299 Speaker 1: make over the next 10, 20 years if he can 624 00:35:57,340 --> 00:35:57,959 Speaker 1: break the union. 625 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 2: So the stakes are truly high for both sides. So 626 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:08,290 Speaker 2: that's it for that day. Everybody disperses. But two days later, 627 00:36:08,870 --> 00:36:14,489 Speaker 2: the sheriff came back. And this time, he has... 125 628 00:36:14,810 --> 00:36:18,730 Speaker 2: men who he has just deputized. He's made them his deputies. 629 00:36:19,489 --> 00:36:21,410 Speaker 2: And the plan is he's going to use the deputies 630 00:36:21,469 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 2: to secure the mill so that Carnegie could safely bring 631 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,740 Speaker 2: in replacement workers without being intimidated by the town. This time, though, 632 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,610 Speaker 2: there's even more locals, union guys and others, waiting for 633 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,190 Speaker 2: the train when the sheriff and the deputies pull in. 634 00:36:37,590 --> 00:36:42,100 Speaker 2: Thousands of people. And there's this standoff. There's the sheriff 635 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 2: and the newly minted deputies and then all the workers 636 00:36:45,180 --> 00:36:47,580 Speaker 2: and their families. And they're, you know, shouting at each other. 637 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:52,350 Speaker 2: It's tense. And then one of the deputies sort of 638 00:36:52,410 --> 00:36:56,870 Speaker 2: sizes things up and throws his badge and revolver on 639 00:36:56,890 --> 00:36:59,049 Speaker 2: the ground, says he's going home. 640 00:36:59,500 --> 00:37:01,320 Speaker 1: You're not paying me enough for this crap. 641 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,299 Speaker 2: Yeah, he is just a guy. He is not a, 642 00:37:03,380 --> 00:37:05,660 Speaker 2: you know, trained law enforcement official. In a way, he 643 00:37:05,739 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 2: is another worker doing this to get a few bucks. 644 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 2: And he doesn't like the looks of this at all. 645 00:37:11,900 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 2: A bunch of other deputies do the same. One deputy 646 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,589 Speaker 2: is caught and beat up by the workers. And by 647 00:37:18,620 --> 00:37:21,370 Speaker 2: the end of the day, the deputies and the sheriff 648 00:37:21,989 --> 00:37:26,260 Speaker 2: have left town. Again, the workers seem to have won, 649 00:37:26,350 --> 00:37:26,690 Speaker 2: which is. 650 00:37:30,710 --> 00:37:34,470 Speaker 2: You know, you have this union take over the town. 651 00:37:34,530 --> 00:37:39,950 Speaker 2: It's kind of their town. Physically assault people. And they win. 652 00:37:39,969 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 2: As far as I can tell, they don't get, you know, arrested. 653 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 2: Seems like the union is breaking the law, beating people up, 654 00:37:46,980 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 2: preventing the sheriff from escorting the deputies to the factory. 655 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,900 Speaker 2: But the government is not calling a foul. The government 656 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:58,630 Speaker 2: is tacitly letting it happen. And in fact... At this moment, 657 00:37:58,770 --> 00:38:02,590 Speaker 2: Carnegie gives up on breaking the union, at least for now. 658 00:38:03,390 --> 00:38:05,530 Speaker 2: And they make a deal. They make a three-year deal. 659 00:38:06,330 --> 00:38:08,730 Speaker 2: Some people wound up taking a pay cut. Others didn't. 660 00:38:08,810 --> 00:38:11,990 Speaker 2: But the union still kept a say in how things 661 00:38:12,110 --> 00:38:15,350 Speaker 2: worked at the mill. The skilled workers kept getting paid 662 00:38:15,430 --> 00:38:18,069 Speaker 2: by the ton, by output. So their wages kept going 663 00:38:18,130 --> 00:38:22,150 Speaker 2: up with productivity. And the workers were very happy with 664 00:38:22,210 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 2: this deal. They definitely felt like they won. They shot 665 00:38:26,500 --> 00:38:30,090 Speaker 2: off cannons. and launch fireworks in the streets of Homestead 666 00:38:30,130 --> 00:38:34,950 Speaker 2: to celebrate. And this story, I think, tells us how 667 00:38:36,170 --> 00:38:42,210 Speaker 2: wild this era was for workers. It was the Wild West. 668 00:38:42,270 --> 00:38:44,290 Speaker 2: You didn't know what was going to happen. There was 669 00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:46,830 Speaker 2: no labor law as we knew it. That wasn't going 670 00:38:46,850 --> 00:38:51,029 Speaker 2: to come for decades. People are still figuring this out. 671 00:38:51,230 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 2: And crucially, it is clear that everything is up for grabs. 672 00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:03,010 Speaker 2: Nobody knows how the balance of power between workers and owners, 673 00:39:03,070 --> 00:39:06,089 Speaker 2: between labor and capital, is going to shake out. And 674 00:39:06,170 --> 00:39:08,629 Speaker 2: that is why everybody is fighting so hard. 675 00:39:09,210 --> 00:39:11,610 Speaker 1: And if we were writing for the anarchist newspaper, one 676 00:39:11,630 --> 00:39:14,390 Speaker 1: of the two anarchist newspapers in Chicago, we might end 677 00:39:14,410 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: the story here with the ascent of labor and this 678 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,740 Speaker 1: great victory in Homestead. But this is, in fact, not 679 00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:25,300 Speaker 1: what Homestead is known for in history, this minor victory. 680 00:39:25,580 --> 00:39:29,980 Speaker 2: What Homestead is known for is... another strike, another fight 681 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,910 Speaker 2: that is going to happen three years later in 1892 682 00:39:32,910 --> 00:39:39,190 Speaker 2: and is going to be much, much more violent. Today's 683 00:39:39,250 --> 00:39:41,850 Speaker 2: show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang. It was engineered 684 00:39:41,870 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 2: by me. by Sarah Bruguier. Our video editor is Matt Nielsen. 685 00:39:45,660 --> 00:39:51,710 Speaker 2: And our showrunner and editor is Ryan Solidarity Dilley. I'm 686 00:39:51,730 --> 00:39:52,450 Speaker 2: Jacob Goldstein. 687 00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:54,050 Speaker 1: I'm Robert Smith. Thanks for listening.