Speaker 1: Hey, guys, this is Greatest Escapes, a show bringing you
Speaker 1: the wildest true escape stories of all time. Today we're
Speaker 1: telling the story of a Soviet spy who switched sides
Speaker 1: and its Bonker's attempt to get away from the KGB
Speaker 1: or as I pronounced good but good. I'm retro Castro
Speaker 1: and my guest today is actor, writer, producer, comedian, musician,
Speaker 1: Trappeeze Artists and host of his very own podcast, Snapho.
Speaker 1: It's Ed Helms. Welcome, Ed, Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Honor to be here.
Speaker 1: Thank You're fantastic. You're fantastic. Really, it means a lot
Speaker 1: to me that you did this. Man, I'm such a
Speaker 1: fan of your podcast, which we'll get into in one second.
Speaker 1: Something about myself is I find white bearded dudes harmonizing
Speaker 1: incredibly soothing. So I love folk music, man, I'm such
Speaker 1: a big fan of folk music. Fleet Foxes give me
Speaker 1: that Mumford and Sons, give me all that good stuff.
Speaker 1: And you were in a folk band, Is that right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never heard the appeal of folk music described
Speaker 2: quite that way. I love, but I do love that
Speaker 2: bearded white dudes harmonizing. Come on, they just got out
Speaker 2: of the lumber trade. It either makes your skin crawl
Speaker 2: or it just soothes you. And I honestly go back
Speaker 2: and forth. Sometimes dracts me nuts. But yeah, my two
Speaker 2: buddies from college, Jacob ty Love and Ian Riggs, we
Speaker 2: went to Oberlin College together and I had a banjo
Speaker 2: background from Whoa High school, and we just became this trio.
Speaker 2: Then after college, we all moved to New York City
Speaker 2: to kind of pursue different things, but kept the music going,
Speaker 2: and the Loansome Trio lives on to this day.
Speaker 1: Loansome Trio. That's wonderful. And I got to tell you, you know,
Speaker 1: it's not even a bit that I love folk music.
Speaker 1: I've never I've never been really good at being like
Speaker 1: kind of stereotypically Latin, like most people assume that I like,
Speaker 1: I like salsa or like reggaetona shit, And I'm really
Speaker 1: musically challenged, like rhythmically challenged in that sense. And I
Speaker 1: heard Ray lomon Tyne for the first time when I
Speaker 1: just moved to New York, and I was, you know,
Speaker 1: I try to go to all my friends back and
Speaker 1: want to moll and be like, you guys have to
Speaker 1: hear this shit called folk music. It's like really sensitive,
Speaker 1: like are you in the forest?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Yea. So trying to convince people that I'm actually into
Speaker 1: folk music has been a lifelong journey.
Speaker 2: It's so funny.
Speaker 1: To set the tone for this greatest escape thing. Do
Speaker 1: you have one that you consider to be an escape
Speaker 1: of your own?
Speaker 2: No? You know what, there's a funny story. It's just
Speaker 2: sort of a silly thing that happened in college. I
Speaker 2: was really into this band, Fishbone. Do you remember this band?
Speaker 1: They're like kind.
Speaker 2: Of a heavy ska band.
Speaker 1: Back in the day, that heavy, heavy sky.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, well what's funny is that they were they
Speaker 2: were best friends with and toured with another band called Biohazard,
Speaker 2: which was like real metal, like you know, death metal
Speaker 2: kind of.
Speaker 1: Right, and a ska man and a metal band. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they were sharp and.
Speaker 2: They were really and they toured together a lot, and
Speaker 2: they were very different acts. But everyone would just go
Speaker 2: to these concerts and go bananas. And so I was
Speaker 2: in college in Ohio and we some friends and I
Speaker 2: went to go see them in Cleveland, and which is
Speaker 2: you know, it's a rock.
Speaker 1: And roll town. Were their fans called call themselves fish
Speaker 1: Boners or Whatso I'm Sorry, that's the stupid question. But
Speaker 1: I want to know question, and I don't.
Speaker 2: I certainly didn't refer to myself as a fishboner at
Speaker 2: the time, But had I thought of that, I think
Speaker 2: I would have. I would have made a lot of
Speaker 2: T shirts and made a lot of money. So you
Speaker 2: were in Ohio, Okay, So we go to the We
Speaker 2: go to the I think it's called the Apollo Theater
Speaker 2: in Cleveland, Ohio to see Biohazard and Fishbone. Now I
Speaker 2: was like really more into Fishbone, excited to see them,
Speaker 2: and they were like kind of joyful, crazy sco but
Speaker 2: Biohazard was first, and I was like, I love these
Speaker 2: guys too. I mean, they're just super committed.
Speaker 1: But I but I didn't know.
Speaker 2: I kind of didn't know like death metal concert etiquette.
Speaker 2: So I just was like, whatever is going to go down,
Speaker 2: I want to be in the middle of it. I
Speaker 2: want to be right up front. And so you know,
Speaker 2: it's before the show and everybody's kind of like mingling
Speaker 2: around and I'm looking around. I'm like, these guys look intense,
Speaker 2: like there's a lot of there's like skinhead energy in
Speaker 2: this crowd. It's like this is kind of a weird
Speaker 2: vibe and uh, but like I'm I love just you know,
Speaker 2: some human experience, like what's gonna have what's this going
Speaker 2: to be?
Speaker 1: Like? So I'm it's alive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I'm right down in front and uh
Speaker 2: and they start playing that song Carmina Burana. Do you
Speaker 2: know that that it's a famous it's this famous classical
Speaker 2: music that's that sounds like it's from the omen like that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So that they start playing that and it's getting
Speaker 2: louder and louder, and the tension in the room is
Speaker 2: just getting more and more intense and uh. And the
Speaker 2: lights are going out and I'm on the I'm in
Speaker 2: sort of the pit area and uh and it's really crowded,
Speaker 2: like super dense, and people are starting to like jump
Speaker 2: up and down and get like starting to get a
Speaker 2: little bit I don't know, the energy is changing and uh.
Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, a hole, like a
Speaker 2: vacuum forms in the middle of the pit, which is
Speaker 2: to say, like everyone everyone kind of realized at the
Speaker 2: same moment that they didn't want to be in the
Speaker 2: middle of the pit and it just started to open up.
Speaker 2: I don't know what's gonna happen. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: scary looking dudes around getting real intense and fired up
Speaker 2: and excited. And then sure enough the lights come on
Speaker 2: and the and bio hazard just and everyone rushes into
Speaker 2: this void and crushes up against the front of the
Speaker 2: stage with like really intense mosh pit rage and anger,
Speaker 2: and like everyone's just throwing punches for but for fun.
Speaker 2: Like it's just it's like, at first, I'm absolutely terrified.
Speaker 2: How do I get out of this. I don't want
Speaker 2: to get killed. I don't want to get like fall
Speaker 2: down and get trampled or something. But the music is
Speaker 2: also kind of awesome, and I start seeing people stage diving,
Speaker 2: and I was like, okay, the people that are stage
Speaker 2: diving are landing on top of the crowd and getting
Speaker 2: passed back. So so I was like, this is this,
Speaker 2: This is my escape. And so I managed to climb
Speaker 2: up on the this this sort of stanchion or whatever
Speaker 2: in front of the stage. There was like a you know,
Speaker 2: a little row where these big burly security dudes were
Speaker 2: guarding the stage, but in front of that you could
Speaker 2: climb onto the railing and jump into the crowd, and
Speaker 2: so I did. I climbed up and was just like
Speaker 2: a landed on top and I was passed all the way.
Speaker 1: To the back all the concession stand.
Speaker 2: Directly to a guy handing me a congratulatory.
Speaker 1: People and he's.
Speaker 2: Like, congradulator, you're still alive. But yeah, so I did
Speaker 2: escape with my life.
Speaker 1: I'm really happy you did. And also like I love
Speaker 1: that oh fuck moment that we've all had when you
Speaker 1: realize that like you're in the wrong place at the
Speaker 1: wrong time.
Speaker 2: You know, like you're equipped.
Speaker 1: Yeah, then you're ill equipped.
Speaker 2: You just don't have the knowledge or the skills.
Speaker 1: I just want to dance, you guys.
Speaker 2: I'm wearing sneakers. You all have combat boots.
Speaker 1: All right, man, let's escape. Let's rock and roll. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about Olegg's Great Escape. Okay, Now to
Speaker 1: get us there, let's talk about who he was and
Speaker 1: what made him that Soviet spy and why he switched
Speaker 1: sides from the Soviets to the West. So, first of all,
Speaker 1: he was in the family business, right, this was sort
Speaker 1: of like a thing that they did. Now. His dad
Speaker 1: was a hardcore communist, like to the level where he
Speaker 1: joined the secret police and was put in charge of
Speaker 1: indoctrinating new recruits, and that was how he raised his kids.
Speaker 1: So you know, no barney for Oleg and his older brother, No, no,
Speaker 1: they became KGB agents. Why wouldn't you. Inteen sixty six
Speaker 1: only got his first assignment outside the USSR, where he
Speaker 1: was posted to the Soviet embassy in Copenhagen. The Danish
Speaker 1: government knew that he was there, but officially he was
Speaker 1: just part of the embassy staff, but secretly his mission
Speaker 1: was to manage the network of undercover spies throughout the country.
Speaker 1: Not that this would have been a real surprise of
Speaker 1: the Danes, because of the twenty workers of the Soviet embassy,
Speaker 1: fourteen were spies.
Speaker 2: I pretty much if you're if you're a Russian in
Speaker 2: the sixties and seventies, like in another country, you're probably
Speaker 2: a spy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But also yeah, I imagine the dates were too
Speaker 1: busy being happy to give a fuck about the spies.
Speaker 1: They're like, un spies, Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 2: Like what are you gonna spy on it?
Speaker 1: Like what do we have to hide? Yeah? A minimum
Speaker 1: people like a home man spy FORID now, living outside
Speaker 1: the iron grip of the Soviet Union was really exciting
Speaker 1: for all like he enjoyed seeing just how lucy goosey
Speaker 1: things were in Copenhagen. Yeah, do you remember the honeypot story?
Speaker 1: Honey pot story?
Speaker 2: I'm about to yeah, alright, Well is it honey pot
Speaker 2: or honey trap?
Speaker 1: I think honey pot? I believe is any pot. Honey
Speaker 1: trap would be more. I'm happy to tell you it
Speaker 1: is both a honey trap and a honey pot.
Speaker 2: Well, you have to have a honeypot to ha to
Speaker 2: set honey.
Speaker 1: Trap it, you gotta have it, Thank you over lords.
Speaker 2: All right, But no Olegg. I think we touched on
Speaker 2: this before. But he's he was a critical character in
Speaker 2: the whole Able Archer eighty three story that my podcast
Speaker 2: is about. And I'm so psyched we're talking about him
Speaker 2: because I have just the tiniest bit of knowledge about Olegg,
Speaker 2: enough to maybe sound like a smarty pants, but not
Speaker 2: enough to really contribute anything meaningful. But but but where
Speaker 2: were we with Olegg?
Speaker 1: He's so he's so he went for a stroll this
Speaker 1: one time through the red light district, which it seems
Speaker 1: like the North k State seemed to just all have
Speaker 1: red light districts. You know, they just call him the district. Now,
Speaker 1: I guess sure. So he browsed a show that was
Speaker 1: selling sex toys, and he even bought some gay porn
Speaker 1: and brought it home to show his wife. He probably
Speaker 1: displayed it on his mantelpiece, because you know, freedom. He's like,
Speaker 1: look at the old soul. They were so flexible, these men. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so he bought a gay porn magazine and he
Speaker 1: put it on his mantle.
Speaker 2: Literally, he's it. He's excited by the gay pornography, not
Speaker 2: because it is erotic to him, but because it is
Speaker 2: such He's like, can you believe that they are allowed
Speaker 2: to do this?
Speaker 1: And they put him in pictures on these lis of them,
Speaker 1: and they put the red lights into fantastic you know,
Speaker 1: so get everyone.
Speaker 2: This would get you so quickly shot in the in
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union that's on.
Speaker 1: And so this, this little purchase is what kind of
Speaker 1: sets us up for the goofiness of it. Because one
Speaker 1: night a local police captain invited Olegg and his wife
Speaker 1: over for a dinner so that the Danish spies could
Speaker 1: sweep the apartment, and they spotted the magazine, and it
Speaker 1: made them think that he was one hundred percent gay, right,
Speaker 1: which is reasonable, Yes, I would say, particularly if it's
Speaker 1: in your mantle piece, like I was just like you're like, hello,
Speaker 1: welcome to my house, and here is my here is
Speaker 1: what I love to do when my wife's not here.
Speaker 2: I just want to comment just that this story could
Speaker 2: never happen today, Like if somebody showed you pornography in
Speaker 2: an excited way and they were like, can you.
Speaker 1: Believe this is so?
Speaker 2: Look at up the how exuberantly free and happy these
Speaker 2: people in this pornographic magazine are.
Speaker 1: And look what we're all smiling. Except it is one
Speaker 1: guy and he's got a mask on.
Speaker 2: Okay, So the Danes go to his apartment they find
Speaker 2: this gay pornography and they're like, oh, obviously he's gay.
Speaker 2: So we're going to set a honey trap there you go,
Speaker 2: and we're going to uh try to blackmail him to
Speaker 2: be a an informant because we know he's KGB. We
Speaker 2: want to flip him. So then they get they get
Speaker 2: a guy to hit on him at a party, right right,
Speaker 2: and and ol Like's just like oh what a nice guy,
Speaker 2: guy like friendly and like make it. They just get
Speaker 2: nowhere with it, like there's just no traction because that's
Speaker 2: not that's not Olegg's persuasion. So, uh, it's just a
Speaker 2: failed honey trap.
Speaker 1: Also, I can imagine, like so the Eagle hit that
Speaker 1: that like devilishly handsome young man must have had. He's
Speaker 1: like the Danish, like's wrong with you? Don't like sea?
Speaker 1: That's beautiful?
Speaker 2: I was specifically chosen as a honey trap.
Speaker 1: I am the hottest agent, I am so sexy. What
Speaker 1: the fuck is wrong with this guy? And meanwhile olegs
Speaker 1: his house me like mean, man, these days are really
Speaker 1: fucking nice.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So in the end, it wasn't actually the Danish recruiting
Speaker 1: that swayed him to turn against the Iron Curtain, but
Speaker 1: it was the Soviets themselves. In nineteen sixty eight, the
Speaker 1: Soviets brutally crushed the prog Spring when Hanks rolled into
Speaker 1: Czechoslovakia to squash an uprising. There's incredibly violent, incredibly bloody.
Speaker 1: So before this, Olegg had this dreamy idea of what
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union was, the stuff that he had learned
Speaker 1: from his dad about how good it was to be
Speaker 1: a communist, you know, But seeing the progue Spring finally
Speaker 1: convinced him how brutal the USSR was. Sure, so Olegg
Speaker 1: was an unhappy Soviet in nineteen seventy two, when one
Speaker 1: of his old friends showed up at his apartment unannounced.
Speaker 1: By the way that he was talking, Olegg realized that
Speaker 1: he was being tested by Western spies to see if
Speaker 1: he would flip. Right. Chatting with his buddy, he said
Speaker 1: how disappointed he was in the Soviet Union, and it
Speaker 1: was a message to them that he was ready to
Speaker 1: cooperate in the West. Now, I wonder what do you think?
Speaker 1: What do you think? He was saying that like made
Speaker 1: him realize that he was getting recruited about the West.
Speaker 2: I just imagine that these kinds of conversations between spies
Speaker 2: where they're trying to sort of suss each other out
Speaker 2: and figure out if am.
Speaker 1: I giving it?
Speaker 2: Like is he giving me a signal? And he's giving
Speaker 2: me an opening. I would just I picture of those
Speaker 2: conversations as super tense and and like lots of like
Speaker 2: overt winking and kind of like and like wild gesturing
Speaker 2: yes and like and like fake laughing but with like
Speaker 2: but with like weird intense eyes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would. It would be crazy if I like
Speaker 1: the McDonald's.
Speaker 2: But Oleg is really he's a really fascinating double agent. Ultimately,
Speaker 2: because he's an idealist and he's not a like like
Speaker 2: a lot of double agents are, uh the money. They're
Speaker 2: either in it for the money, or they're psychotic and
Speaker 2: they just want the thrill of it, or because.
Speaker 1: They they've been sight they've been, or because.
Speaker 2: They hate their homeland and they want, you know, they
Speaker 2: they want to sort of like doom their homeland for
Speaker 2: some reason. But like there are Americans who who wound
Speaker 2: up hating America and becoming double agents four or the
Speaker 2: Soviets at the time. But what's fascinating about Oleg is
Speaker 2: that he never didn't love Russia and or the Soviet
Speaker 2: Union or what Russia kind of represented historically, and he
Speaker 2: never he never stopped hoping for the best for Russia,
Speaker 2: and he felt that by helping the West, he was
Speaker 2: helping Russia's future, the Soviet future.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and to your point, here's where we see how
Speaker 1: clever Olegg is right, because he also told the KGB
Speaker 1: that he was going to go meet with a British agent.
Speaker 1: So his bosses in Moscow told him to go for it.
Speaker 1: They wanted to see if they could use Gordievski as
Speaker 1: a false double agent to fool the British but they
Speaker 1: didn't know that Oleg was for real, for real right,
Speaker 1: ready to switch sides. When Oleg finally met with the British,
Speaker 1: he agreed to work with them under three conditions. First,
Speaker 1: he didn't want to attack or injure any other KGB agents.
Speaker 1: He was not offering to become a British assassin, you know. Second,
Speaker 1: he he didn't want to be secretly photographed recorded, which
Speaker 1: makes a lot of fucking I can't imagine like a
Speaker 1: spy being like, but just takes lots of pictures of me,
Speaker 1: Please just like make sure that you get a good one.
Speaker 1: It's from my album. And Third, he would take absolutely
Speaker 1: no pay. He wasn't doing this for the money. He
Speaker 1: was doing it because he no longer believed in this
Speaker 1: in how the Soviets were running it. You know, right,
Speaker 1: what would it take for you to become a spy
Speaker 1: ed in this time? What would they have to offer you?
Speaker 1: You're a Soviet Union and you're like, they're like you
Speaker 1: gotta defective America? What would it take?
Speaker 2: Let's see, this is nineteen, this is about four, okay,
Speaker 2: nine said four, So I'm I'm like about one years old.
Speaker 1: I would it's just like a good I would just
Speaker 1: think like a bottle of milk would A bottle of
Speaker 1: milk would, right, And then you're immediately a double agent immediately.
Speaker 1: So in nineteen seventy four, Old Egg started sneaking roles
Speaker 1: of microfilm of documents out of the Soviet headquarters on
Speaker 1: his lunch breaks. Right, he would hand them off to
Speaker 1: be copied, pick them up on his way back, and
Speaker 1: drop them off again before anyone noticed they were missing.
Speaker 1: But this was also the year that he got his
Speaker 1: first code name from the British, and they named him Sunbeam.
Speaker 1: What would be your code name, Cowboy Rid? No, I
Speaker 1: don't know, Cowboy Rid. I would like mine to be
Speaker 1: a fish boner. Nobody would know. So nineteen seventy four
Speaker 1: was also the year that Olegg met his second wife, Layla.
Speaker 1: She was a secretary at the World Health Organization in Copenhagen,
Speaker 1: and the pair began a very low key, very slow
Speaker 1: motion affair. You know, he had code names for this
Speaker 1: affair too, was what is a slow motion affair? Overlords?
Speaker 1: What is this that it happened? Was it tantric? Is
Speaker 1: that what you're referring to, like slow motion is just
Speaker 1: slow simmering? Answer me that is correct. It took many
Speaker 1: years for him to leave his first wife and choose Laila. Okay, slow,
Speaker 1: most affair, got it. So Olegg was leaving the Soviets
Speaker 1: for the British, and he was also leaving his first
Speaker 1: wife for Laila. Also, women named Leila tended to make
Speaker 1: men in the seventies go insane George Harris and Eric Clapton,
Speaker 1: you know, which is also a crazy story in of itself.
Speaker 1: Her name was actually Patty Voyd, but whatever in the way,
Speaker 1: she Masha. So after four years, in nineteen seventy eight,
Speaker 1: things were going really well for both of them, right,
Speaker 1: but Olegg was recalled to Russia. So pack your bags, ed,
Speaker 1: we're going to the Kremlin. Oligg was stationed in Moscow
Speaker 1: for the next few years, and he spent this time
Speaker 1: building his new family with late.
Speaker 2: Right, right, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: They were married in nineteen seventy nine and their first
Speaker 1: daughter was born the next year. Now, meanwhile, she had
Speaker 1: no idea that he was actually a double agent between
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union for the British. And Olegg was never
Speaker 1: really comfortable in Russia anymore, so he wanted to be
Speaker 1: back in England.
Speaker 2: There was no gay pornography, which at that point for
Speaker 2: him again not a turn on, just was something that
Speaker 2: had become like a comfort.
Speaker 1: He's like, yes, yes, it's democracy, but about the gay
Speaker 1: board on the wad this it.
Speaker 2: Was a comfort blanket for him, just wants to know
Speaker 2: it's there.
Speaker 1: Exactly. So, in the summer of nineteen eighty one, Oleg
Speaker 1: passed this super spy English exam that qualified him for
Speaker 1: a post at the Russian Embassy in London. And this
Speaker 1: is where you're talking about. So by the by that fall,
Speaker 1: his second daughter was born and the KGB were finally
Speaker 1: convinced that the new marriage was more solid than the
Speaker 1: first one. This feels like a weird detail, but it
Speaker 1: was important because it helped the KGB decide that Olegg
Speaker 1: could be trusted.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: They're like, if he can make two marriages work, he
Speaker 1: can do this.
Speaker 2: Well, no, they it is true that that that the KGB,
Speaker 2: if you had a rocky relationship with a spouse, then
Speaker 2: you're a risky agent.
Speaker 1: Which makes sense, right, Coral Kla couldn't.
Speaker 2: There was like more openings for you know, to get
Speaker 2: in trouble or blackmailed or whatever.
Speaker 1: Exactly, And they're like, well, this man wasn't happy in
Speaker 1: his first marriage, he left and created the second marriage.
Speaker 1: This is a reliable man, so they let him take
Speaker 1: the job in London. And because if there's anything to
Speaker 1: be said about the KGB, it's they're romantics. Finally, when
Speaker 1: Olegg arrived in London in June nineteen eighty two, he
Speaker 1: was an easy reach of his British spy friends. Now
Speaker 1: he could pass them even more information and even lower risk.
Speaker 1: The British spies decided to switch it up with his
Speaker 1: nickname with his code name, and the new code name
Speaker 1: was nocked In. Well, this was his British code name, okay,
Speaker 1: So the Brits were passing along until to the CIA too.
Speaker 1: And the Americans didn't know Nockton's identity, which is important later,
Speaker 1: but they did know that he was a high ranking
Speaker 1: KGB officer, so they gave him their own nickname and
Speaker 1: code name. The spy community is going to be up
Speaker 1: in arms that I keep calling it a nickname. They
Speaker 1: called him Tickle, so now he is Tickle right right right.
Speaker 1: I love the idea of like a copywriter being like,
Speaker 1: what's a catchy one? You know that that's their only
Speaker 1: their only job is to pick code names, because that's
Speaker 1: what we feel. We feel tickled when we get this information.
Speaker 1: He so once he was in London, he was able
Speaker 1: to spend hours talking with him discussing the KGB methods,
Speaker 1: the identity of hidden agents. You know, it's just tons
Speaker 1: of secrets that six had never understood before. Now. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: the rest of the KGB was focused on the idea
Speaker 1: of whether or not the United States and the rest
Speaker 1: of the European allies we're going to start a nuclear war.
Speaker 1: That's where it comes in boom. But one important thing
Speaker 1: is that the KGB spies were supposed to be tracking
Speaker 1: all sorts of weird things, right like looking for signs
Speaker 1: that the West was preparing for a sudden nuclear attack.
Speaker 2: Uh no, but it really, it really was a fascinating
Speaker 2: that this system that the Soviets set up where they
Speaker 2: were basically telling their spies like, give us intel so
Speaker 2: that we can try to figure out if attack is
Speaker 2: getting planned. And it was things like you know, how
Speaker 2: many lights are on at the Pentagon, that's exactly, and
Speaker 2: and you're like, well, I don't know, there's a hundred
Speaker 2: lights on tonight at the Pentagon, okay, but usually there's
Speaker 2: two hundred, So what's going on? They're planning something. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And there were some things that you could point to
Speaker 2: that were more practical, like are you seeing troop movements?
Speaker 2: Are you seeing like hospitals building up supplies, or you know,
Speaker 2: things that might indicate they expect to have lots of casualties.
Speaker 2: Those might be reasonable indicators of potential war conflict. But
Speaker 2: so much of it was not reasonable that it became
Speaker 2: this insane, crazy, arbitrary algorithm arbitry.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, it just seems like so like ineffable,
Speaker 1: where people were like, I don't know, tell me how
Speaker 1: much how many burgers are there stashing? Right, because they
Speaker 1: wanted to know how many they did. They wanted to
Speaker 1: know how many cows were getting killed at a slaughter house.
Speaker 1: The one that you're talking about is like they were
Speaker 1: monitoring how much blood was being stashed in blood banks,
Speaker 1: which makes a little more sense, but like cow's I
Speaker 1: don't fucking know, man.
Speaker 2: Right, But it is just it just it's like if
Speaker 2: you're convinced something's gonna happen. And a lot of historians
Speaker 2: believe that the Soviets really did think that NATO was
Speaker 2: going to attack them, and so if you think that
Speaker 2: everything you see is going to be through that prism,
Speaker 2: and you're going to be like, uh, what's the reason
Speaker 2: that all of this extra cowslaughtering indicator indicates an appending
Speaker 2: nuclear attack? And you just sort of fill in the
Speaker 2: blanks and all of a sudden you have all these reasons.
Speaker 1: So our guy Olegg is caught in the middle of this, right,
Speaker 1: he was telling I six everything he knew about the KGB,
Speaker 1: and then he was telling the KGB whatever they wanted
Speaker 1: to hear about how many cookies were in the fucking
Speaker 1: shop or whatever it was, right, right, So he knew
Speaker 1: that this put him in a really dangerous spot, and
Speaker 1: he was right to be worried. Right, the KGB didn't
Speaker 1: know that someone was passing their secrets to the British
Speaker 1: because the British were sharing those secrets with the Americans
Speaker 1: and the Russians, which I did not know had a
Speaker 1: spy in the CIA. So fortunately for Olegg, the Brits
Speaker 1: weren't telling the CIA about Tickle's identity. That was in
Speaker 1: part because they enjoyed dangling secrets over the Americans. So
Speaker 1: that's really a win for being petty, you know, sure,
Speaker 1: then thank you thank you for being mad at your cousins.
Speaker 1: So the Russians were really on the hunt for their trader,
Speaker 1: and if the KGB found out that it was Olegg,
Speaker 1: they were probably this is what they do. They call
Speaker 1: him back to Russia to squeeze him for information before
Speaker 1: they finally did away with him. Right. But now, if
Speaker 1: he needed an escape route back to England, he would
Speaker 1: need to get his wife and his two kids out
Speaker 1: as well. So together with the British spies, they cooked
Speaker 1: up this plan called Operation Pimlico name for the Pimlico
Speaker 1: neighborhood in London. Are you ready for the super intelligence
Speaker 1: spy plan? Oh yeah, okay, here we go, very elaborate.
Speaker 1: If things go bad in Russia, they would stuff ole
Speaker 1: Egg in the trunk of a car and drive like
Speaker 1: fucking hell to Europe. That's it, that was a fun
Speaker 1: I should do not And if the whole Gordievski family
Speaker 1: was together, then the plan became much more elaborate. They
Speaker 1: would stuff one man, one woman and two children in
Speaker 1: the trunks of two cars and then drive like hell
Speaker 1: to Europe. Who is thank god? I would be like
Speaker 1: the guys. I feel safe, I feel heard, I feel understood,
Speaker 1: I would.
Speaker 2: Be like, Okay, so I'm gonna go back. I'm in London,
Speaker 2: I'm happy as a clam. My family is all happy.
Speaker 2: I'm about to go back to Russia to find out
Speaker 2: if they know I'm a spy. If they do know
Speaker 2: I'm a spy, then you stick me in a trunk
Speaker 2: and try to get me back. And by the way,
Speaker 2: I'm also claustrophobic, so I'm not down with any of them.
Speaker 1: No. Also, but that you bring up a really interesting
Speaker 1: point that I'm like, why do you go back anyway? Like,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, If you know that you
Speaker 1: are an imminent threat, why go through the fucking process
Speaker 1: of like just checking in, you know?
Speaker 2: Because I think it's you're getting into the psychology of
Speaker 2: spies at this point, which I can never wrap my
Speaker 2: head around, Like the amount of information and the amount
Speaker 2: of kind of like ruses and and lies that you
Speaker 2: have to kind of maintain to be a spy, let
Speaker 2: alone a double agent. Right, It's incredible, It's mind blowing.
Speaker 2: And what's more insane about these guys people like Gordievski
Speaker 2: and I got to interview a KGB spy he did,
Speaker 2: Jack Barski, Yeah, And what's crazy about these guys is
Speaker 2: that they're so confident. If you were like, Okay, Moscow
Speaker 2: wants you to come home and check in, and if
Speaker 2: you don't come home, then they're gonna know you're a
Speaker 2: double agent, and so you better go home. But so
Speaker 2: in my mind, you're like, well, maybe I should just
Speaker 2: take my chances and stay here, because if I do
Speaker 2: go back and then they then they interrogate me, am
Speaker 2: I more screwed? Well, a guy like Gordievski is so
Speaker 2: confident that he's been playing his cards perfectly the whole
Speaker 2: time that he's like, eh, I'll just go back, but
Speaker 2: they don't. I know, they don't have anything on me.
Speaker 2: I know that they might suspect I'm a double agent,
Speaker 2: but they can't prove it. And I know they can't
Speaker 2: prove it. Now what that's an insane level of confidence.
Speaker 2: Like to me, I would be like, I think I
Speaker 2: cover all my bases, but I'm not sure. I mean, like, it.
Speaker 1: Wouldn't take that much if they tell me come back
Speaker 1: to Rush. I was like, that's it. I'm dead, Yeah,
Speaker 1: fucking I'm safe. But you know, to your point too,
Speaker 1: like that, once you're in that mindset and you've been
Speaker 1: so used to just playing this card. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: think it dawns on you the option of just staying right,
Speaker 1: because then that just defeats the whole thing that you like,
Speaker 1: whatever you build your personality around, and your mind game's about,
Speaker 1: like you don't know how to do anything? Are you
Speaker 1: sort of going on autopilot by going back to this sovietnion?
Speaker 2: And we're looking at this from the standpoint of like
Speaker 2: we're just average schmos who if we got put in
Speaker 2: these situations, we would melt down and something like a
Speaker 2: canary and just.
Speaker 1: Be like gilt.
Speaker 2: Right at this point, Oleg Gordievsky is I think he's
Speaker 2: been a double agent for over ten years. He has
Speaker 2: an incredible, uh, set of skills, set of kind of
Speaker 2: like mind games, and like I said, confidence and this
Speaker 2: is just part of it. You go back and you
Speaker 2: play the game, and he just feels like he'll get
Speaker 2: away with it and he'll get that almost.
Speaker 1: But that confidence almost been him in the ass. It
Speaker 1: It really did, Yeah, it did. So in May nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty five, it finally happened. Right the KGB recalled Olig
Speaker 1: to Moscow via telegram, so they said that he was
Speaker 1: getting a promotion and needed to come back for some
Speaker 1: high level secret preparations. But things didn't feel quite right
Speaker 1: for Oleg right, so he confirmed with his British context
Speaker 1: if he gave the signal, they would launch Operation Pimlico
Speaker 1: to get him out of Russia. On May nineteenth, nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty five, Olegg arrived in Moscow, where he had had
Speaker 1: an apartment. There's a feeling that he got. He describes
Speaker 1: a chill shooting up his spine, which if you're of
Speaker 1: a spy like Oleg, that doesn't seem overly paranoid. That's
Speaker 1: a really bad sign. The dead bold lock on his
Speaker 1: apartment had been turned, so his place must have been
Speaker 1: combed by other agents before he arrived. They were searching
Speaker 1: vigorously for gay pornography. On the right side, he was
Speaker 1: now a colonel in the KGB, so there were rules
Speaker 1: about how to treat somebody of his rank. The Soviets
Speaker 1: actually have to gather evidence and hold a trial if
Speaker 1: they suspected him, So that bought him some time, you know,
Speaker 1: but Oleg knew that they were onto him. After a
Speaker 1: few days, Gordievski was called in for questioning, and this
Speaker 1: is what we're talking about that, we would have fucking
Speaker 1: folded this guy. In the interrogation, the other KGB agents
Speaker 1: gave a spiked brandy and dug for details about his
Speaker 1: British and Danish contacts. They asked him questions for hours,
Speaker 1: and eventually Oleg blocked out. Now he doesn't even know
Speaker 1: what the fuck happened. He was just allowed to leave
Speaker 1: after he came to, so he could only guess that
Speaker 1: he didn't give up anything about his counter or espionage.
Speaker 1: How fucking scared would you be? Bro? If you're like
Speaker 1: if you're like, do you think you have your shit together?
Speaker 1: And then you block out? And then you come back
Speaker 1: and we have all we wanted. Like I'm like, what
Speaker 1: if I like, dude, I have two tequilas. I'm like
Speaker 1: spilling fucking family secrets.
Speaker 2: Man, I cannot even imagine that.
Speaker 1: So at the end of May, Leylan and the kids
Speaker 1: were brought back to Moscow and told that Old Egg
Speaker 1: was sick. But when they get there, he didn't want
Speaker 1: to let him know how dangerous things were, so he
Speaker 1: acted like things for you know, like everything's fine, I'm fine,
Speaker 1: you guys, okay, Like why is it? Don't be weird
Speaker 1: about it? And he sent them off to a vacation
Speaker 1: at the Caspian c Now, he says the same goodbye
Speaker 1: was the hardest thing that he'd ever done. By the
Speaker 1: time they would get back to Moscow, he was either
Speaker 1: going to be dead or in exile. After this time
Speaker 1: in the hospital, he was back in Moscow that July,
Speaker 1: he felt eyes on him everywhere right. He feared it
Speaker 1: was only a matter of time before he was snatched.
Speaker 1: So if it was finally time to engage in Pimlico.
Speaker 1: So the plan was supposed to go like this. Olegg
Speaker 1: was supposed to stand on the street at seven thirty
Speaker 1: am and he would be holding a crucial signal, this
Speaker 1: plastic bag from the Safeway grocery store, signaling that he
Speaker 1: needs a safe way out of this fucking place.
Speaker 2: Do you believe what's so insane is it's like, we
Speaker 2: give these spies so much credit for being like masterminds
Speaker 2: and coming up with these elaborate schemes. And you can
Speaker 2: just imagine Olegg talking to his I six handlers and
Speaker 2: he's like, Okay, so what's the plan, guys, And they're like, uh,
Speaker 2: you gonna stand there with a grocery bag if it's
Speaker 2: a Safeway grocery bag. Huh, you're gonna jump in the trunk?
Speaker 1: Wait what okay? Then but and then and then what? Oh?
Speaker 2: Well, then we just drive. We drive, okay, and you
Speaker 2: go we go to this like a safe house somewhere
Speaker 2: and then getting in a hot air balloon or no,
Speaker 2: we just we just go. We drive to Europe and
Speaker 2: we hope for the best.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna but we're gonna bring really positive attitudes.
Speaker 2: And yes, I forgot. There's a lot of positive energy
Speaker 2: around this whole operation. We've been we've been doing a
Speaker 2: lot of like sold searching, Yeah, a lot of meditation.
Speaker 2: We're just getting we're getting real psyched about it.
Speaker 1: We're bringing our energy coach Ananda. His real name is Jeff,
Speaker 1: but he is coming along for the ride and he's
Speaker 1: very excited.
Speaker 2: So wait, I just want to be clear. So I
Speaker 2: just come to stand there with a bag, and then
Speaker 2: I just jump in a car and the truck of
Speaker 2: a car and and that's it.
Speaker 1: Are we fucking fie? Are we just to come up
Speaker 1: with coal? Shit? That doesn't sound good enough. So in
Speaker 1: response to this fucking Safeway bag, another man would walk
Speaker 1: past him, holding a green bag from the luxury department
Speaker 1: store Harrod's, and he would be eating chocolate bar. Then
Speaker 1: Olig was supposed to wait for three days, go to
Speaker 1: church and pass a little note with the details of
Speaker 1: his situation, and then wait again. So Olegg followed his
Speaker 1: plan right. He did his little safe way shopping back
Speaker 1: thing at the street corner. Message sent, but he didn't
Speaker 1: notice anybody else following the plan. There were no herods back,
Speaker 1: no with chocolates being eaten. So Oleg nervously waited three
Speaker 1: days and went to church and he scribbled on a
Speaker 1: little note that he was ready to pass along right,
Speaker 1: and it said need excultration. He worried the whole way
Speaker 1: that he was going to be found out because part
Speaker 1: of the plan was for him to wear a hat
Speaker 1: in church, and no one wears a hat in church.
Speaker 2: No, not in Moscow.
Speaker 1: Not in Moscow, you don't. When OI got to the church,
Speaker 1: there was a sign hanging out in the front which
Speaker 1: said all hats are welcome. No, they just said that
Speaker 1: it was closed for redecoration. So Oli freed the fuck out.
Speaker 1: He dashed back home, chewed up and swallowed his note
Speaker 1: so it would never be found, and to sleep. He
Speaker 1: crammed himself with sedatives and Cuban rum, which also, to
Speaker 1: be honest, at this stage of his expltation, I would
Speaker 1: be a full blown alcoholic man. Like you gotta have
Speaker 1: something going on for you to cons I.
Speaker 2: Mean the anxiety, That's what I just can't imagine. I
Speaker 2: can't carry a lot like any kind of lie around.
Speaker 2: I just I can't pull it off. I'm too I'm
Speaker 2: just too much of a nervous nelly to let alone
Speaker 2: like these grand life or death.
Speaker 1: You know, I spent sleepless nights. If a wader says
Speaker 1: welcome to the restaurant, I say thanks you too, like
Speaker 1: I spent. I'll spin a sleepless night and be like,
Speaker 1: oh fuck, I fucked it up. I fucked it.
Speaker 2: You know he was already there.
Speaker 1: He didn't know what he doesn't. Yeah, I'm the one
Speaker 1: coming to his establishment. God damn it. What a rude
Speaker 1: thing to say. So the next Tuesday, anxiety driven as
Speaker 1: he is, he went back to the street corner once again.
Speaker 1: He flew his Safeway shopping bag, and he was just
Speaker 1: screaming internally the whole time, until finally another man walked
Speaker 1: by him carrying a green bag and munching on a
Speaker 1: chocolate Mars bar while making direct eye contact with Olegg
Speaker 1: as he marched by. Message received boom. Also, I mean,
Speaker 1: such an awkward, fucking secret spy signal, But fuck.
Speaker 2: It, it's hard to look sort of serious and like
Speaker 2: a spy guy chewing on a chocolate bar.
Speaker 1: And making uninterrupted eye contact. Lah. And it turned out
Speaker 1: to be the Danish agent, like he's just hoping for
Speaker 1: a second run at the honeypotty. He's like, you're gonna
Speaker 1: fucking look me in the eye this time. So for
Speaker 1: the next two days, Olegg visited friends and families, saying
Speaker 1: his goodbyes. You know, he talked about literature with his friends,
Speaker 1: He jogged around his neighborhood. He tried to act as
Speaker 1: normal as possible. He was the only one that knew
Speaker 1: that he was about to run for his life in
Speaker 1: a very non complicated way. So now we get to
Speaker 1: the final bit of it, which is the day finally
Speaker 1: came Oleg dunked out of his apartment. Now he knew
Speaker 1: he was being followed, so he jogged directly into a
Speaker 1: thick patch of trees and sig zagged his to the
Speaker 1: train station, where he boarded on a trip toward Finland,
Speaker 1: and this trip was wild man, so Oleg took too
Speaker 1: many sedatives on the train, and then he ended up
Speaker 1: falling out of a high bunk bed and gashing his
Speaker 1: head open. So he stumbled around, bleeding on people like
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, not exactly keeping a low profile, right, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: screaming about harrods and safeways like shut the fuck up, hole,
Speaker 1: like you're so close now. When he finally caught a
Speaker 1: bus near the finished border, Oleg went through a bonker
Speaker 1: sequence of events right to get to the To get
Speaker 1: the bus to stop at the right place, he convinced
Speaker 1: the driver to pull over, telling him that he was
Speaker 1: going to barf all over the seats, So the bus
Speaker 1: let him out on the side of the road, where
Speaker 1: he pretended to yak into the bushes until it drove away.
Speaker 1: Once he was alone, Olig realized that he was way
Speaker 1: too early for his meeting with the British Buys to
Speaker 1: pick him up. So what does he do?
Speaker 2: He this is amazing, This is truly the hubris of
Speaker 2: these so.
Speaker 1: You know what, this is fucking nuts. So he he waits?
Speaker 1: Does he wait for a little like a good little
Speaker 1: I defect.
Speaker 2: What should you do?
Speaker 1: What should you do in this? Stand here and wait?
Speaker 1: You stand there, or you fucking wait.
Speaker 2: Or you hide in the bushes.
Speaker 1: He was like four hours early, right, it was like
Speaker 1: a day early, man, Like you don't have to like survive, yeah,
Speaker 1: and like take a nap, but watch people going by,
Speaker 1: read a fucking book. But no, no, our pal Olegg
Speaker 1: had a little rumbley in his little tummy, so he
Speaker 1: decided to hitchhike to the nearest town and sit down
Speaker 1: for lunch. He slammed down a beer, he ate some chicken,
Speaker 1: bought another beer for the road, and he started walking
Speaker 1: back to the meeting place.
Speaker 2: By the way, it's eighteen miles. It's not just like
Speaker 2: around the corner. It's like it's it's.
Speaker 1: Far faster you walking, bro, Like yeah, it's it's completely
Speaker 1: four hours and only only now he realized that he
Speaker 1: had taken too long and that he might be late.
Speaker 1: This is the first moment it strikes him when he's
Speaker 1: walking back, right, So internally he was like what the
Speaker 1: fuck am I doing? Like why did I not just
Speaker 1: wait there? Because externainly he was just like walking around
Speaker 1: with the bottle beer, sprinding down the road, as fast
Speaker 1: as it could have been. Like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: You know. The worst of all, he was wearing corduroy pants,
Speaker 1: which is a very Yeah, that's a lot of chafing, Boddy,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know about it. If you've ever
Speaker 1: walked out.
Speaker 2: It's gonna make a lot of noise. That's a lot
Speaker 2: of swishing.
Speaker 1: None of this is his spy Like, he's like just chicken.
Speaker 1: His pieces of chicken are falling off of him. He's
Speaker 1: shaking beer. He's just in Corday's weird. So fortunately, Oleg
Speaker 1: finally heard a truck going in the right direction, so
Speaker 1: he stuck out a thumb and caught another ride back
Speaker 1: to cover the sixteen miles. He would have never made
Speaker 1: it on his own. Now, this is a true story.
Speaker 1: He tried to In order to convince the truck driver
Speaker 1: to step in the middle of nowhere, Oleg told the
Speaker 1: truck driver that he had an appointment to have sex
Speaker 1: in the woods, and the driver agreed. Obviously, the driver
Speaker 1: didn't look at his corduroy pants, because everybody knows you
Speaker 1: can't have sex in the woods with courterory pants.
Speaker 2: I guess that is a good a good way to
Speaker 2: just sort of be like, hey, we're in the middle
Speaker 2: of nowhere, but I need to get out of your
Speaker 2: t rock, Like what could you get? Is there any other.
Speaker 1: Good excuses that I would get to be like, I
Speaker 1: am so sorry. Listen, dude, I was planning on robbing you,
Speaker 1: but I've changed my mind. Leave me off here, you
Speaker 1: know one of these which they might get you shot.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm a botanist. And there's like a really rare plant
Speaker 2: over here.
Speaker 1: What is that called the fucking autobun Society. It's like,
Speaker 1: if I don't fucking catch his bird, I'm gonna be
Speaker 1: the embarrassment, you understand. And the truck driver, being a
Speaker 1: fellow autobund Society member, was like, say no more. The
Speaker 1: problem is getting him to go away. Me posted here's
Speaker 1: my number. So Olegg swatted mosquitos and swig from his
Speaker 1: beer once he finally got there, And finally he's waiting
Speaker 1: on the spot where his two cars pull up and
Speaker 1: his rescuers jumped out. Now there was a price to
Speaker 1: see only one man and not the whole family as
Speaker 1: they had plan for. But they opened the trunk for
Speaker 1: ole Egg and he dove inside and they rebbed the engines,
Speaker 1: and now ole Egg was finally racing towards the border.
Speaker 1: Now in the trunk, he had a bottle of water,
Speaker 1: setups for his children which he's not gonna use now,
Speaker 1: and a spacelanket. They also knew that the Soviet scanned
Speaker 1: cars with infrared cameras at the finished border, so they
Speaker 1: hoped that the metallic space blanket would hide Olegg from
Speaker 1: the cameras and allow them to pass through. Did they
Speaker 1: do any fucking tests on it, like they were hoping,
Speaker 1: you were, Lily.
Speaker 2: Here's like some plastic cell aphane wrapped yourself in this.
Speaker 1: Chew on these ice cubes. That's going to make it
Speaker 1: bring your body temperature down. So the sedatives were OLiS
Speaker 1: first moved. He pounded them, and fortunately they also gave
Speaker 1: him an empty jug for a piss. Now, over the
Speaker 1: next half hour, from the darkness of the trunk, Oleg
Speaker 1: felt them stop at four different Soviet checkpoints on the
Speaker 1: way to the border. They all seem to be quick
Speaker 1: conversations while the drivers and the passengers showed papers, but
Speaker 1: they kept music playing in the car radios and it
Speaker 1: seemed like they were doing just fine. Now, the fifth
Speaker 1: stop is when it gets tricky. Oh boy, the engine
Speaker 1: switched off and all they could hear voices They had
Speaker 1: reached customs. Olig heard the officers talking and men with
Speaker 1: dogs circling the cars. Now one of the British officers
Speaker 1: started feeding chips to the dogs while another complained with
Speaker 1: a Soviet official about the annoyance of students in Moscow.
Speaker 1: That was it, That was like, what did I like
Speaker 1: it that they found his one niche thing that he
Speaker 1: loves to complain about, So yeah, I can go. So finally,
Speaker 1: after what felt like an hour, the British officers climbed
Speaker 1: back inside the car, crossed from the highway to a
Speaker 1: dirt hole on They didn't just check the trunk nope, huh,
Speaker 1: because the British bis were just like, hey, fuck is students?
Speaker 1: Am I right? They were both from like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: benson Hurst, Brooklyn in this scenario. But there was also
Speaker 1: one more thing, which was that the British agents brought
Speaker 1: a baby with them and while the guards were talking
Speaker 1: with the driver, she actually got out and gave the
Speaker 1: baby a diaper change on the trunk of the car.
Speaker 1: So the Soviet guards was just like, I don't like
Speaker 1: a baby, this is poop. I don't like to do this.
Speaker 1: So they didn't even make them open it. What So
Speaker 1: they managed to talk their way out of it by
Speaker 1: complaining about students in Moscow and by feeding chips to
Speaker 1: the dogs. All right, So finally, after all this tension,
Speaker 1: they're in a dirt road and they finally come to
Speaker 1: a stop outside a stand of pine trees. When the
Speaker 1: truck open, Olegg was met by the friendly face of
Speaker 1: his English handler. He had just escaped the KGB. Yay,
Speaker 1: good for you, but he had left his family behind.
Speaker 2: There's some aspect to a lot of these guys that's
Speaker 2: somewhat psychopathic.
Speaker 1: So because it was successful, Operation Piblico is remembered as
Speaker 1: one of the most daring escapes of the Cold War.
Speaker 1: A lot of other KGB defectors died trying to escape,
Speaker 1: so it's kind of a miracle. Like truly, the Gordyaevsky
Speaker 1: got out. Ever since he's basically spent the rest of
Speaker 1: his life trying not to get killed by KGB assassins.
Speaker 1: Now six wasn't surprised, of course, Like one officer said,
Speaker 1: he made absolute fools of the KGB. The only way
Speaker 1: that they did have to get back at him was
Speaker 1: to hold his family hostage, started lobbying world leaders asking
Speaker 1: them for help. He even flew to the US and
Speaker 1: he went to the White House where he met with
Speaker 1: President Reagan and he asked for the US to get
Speaker 1: his kids back.
Speaker 2: This is also a fascinating moment in the Able Archer
Speaker 2: story because in the run up to the Able Archer conflict,
Speaker 2: ol Gordievski was trying to tell his Soviet handlers that guys,
Speaker 2: there's crazy tension between the East and the West, but
Speaker 2: they're not trying to nuke you. They're not planning to
Speaker 2: nuke you. When he went to talk to Reagan, he
Speaker 2: actually was also trying to take credit for avoiding nuclear
Speaker 2: conflict to some extent by saying, like, look, I helped
Speaker 2: avoid you know, a nuclear holocaust during Able Archer because
Speaker 2: I was telling both sides the right thing. And that's
Speaker 2: another reason why you should really think about helping me, right,
Speaker 2: And it was it was pretty good leverage, Like it
Speaker 2: was a good story that he that he told. And
Speaker 2: but what's fast from a historical standpoint is, like, you know,
Speaker 2: a lot of historians relied on his account of Able Archer.
Speaker 1: Information came from him of what the Russians, well.
Speaker 2: Just you know, his his narrative of what was happening
Speaker 2: at that time was was sort of an important part
Speaker 2: of the historical record. But it's also you can now
Speaker 2: understand the deep conflict of interest in like, of course
Speaker 2: it behooves him to uh to bolster his own role
Speaker 2: in the able Archer crisis, because now it's a reason
Speaker 2: to help get his family out of out of Russia.
Speaker 2: He can like put you know, he can tell foreign
Speaker 2: leaders like, look, I helped save the world, now you
Speaker 2: need to help me get my family.
Speaker 1: Out, like it's a it might be an unreliable area, yeah,
Speaker 1: sort of, yeah, exactly. If it was true, then it's
Speaker 1: it was a great detriment to the easing of tensions
Speaker 1: that you lost the like one of the only guys
Speaker 1: in the room being like, guys, nobody's fucking fighting, You're good,
Speaker 1: everybody's okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately he had to go to Britain to chill. So
Speaker 1: in the years since after he went to talk to Reagan,
Speaker 1: Olig had been in hiding and he has lived in
Speaker 1: safe houses and had to keep watch for Russian assassination
Speaker 1: at tempts ever since. But there is one bright spot though.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety one, when the Russian government was in turmoil,
Speaker 1: new leadership stepped in and looking to make amends with
Speaker 1: the western world, they finally let Laila and the girls go.
Speaker 1: They reunited with Oleg that September. Three months after Oleg
Speaker 1: and his family got back together, the Soviet Union collapsed.
Speaker 1: So in the end, tickle tickle one. Yeah, anyway, that's
Speaker 1: our story. Ed, thank you so much for being a
Speaker 1: part of it, man, and thanks for so many interesting
Speaker 1: details of it. I didn't know that the conversation with
Speaker 1: Reagan was because a big part of it was.
Speaker 2: It was part of the color of that conversation.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. I want to talk about snap Fu
Speaker 1: for a second too, if you don't mind.
Speaker 2: So. Season one is the story of Able Archer eighty three,
Speaker 2: which was an event in nineteen eighty three. It was
Speaker 2: the height of the Cold War, and there was so
Speaker 2: much tension between the United States or NATO and the
Speaker 2: Soviet Union that this Able Archer exercise, which by any
Speaker 2: other measure was just a normal military exercise, was suddenly
Speaker 2: getting interpreted by the Soviets as possible staging for a
Speaker 2: real nuclear attack, and basically there was this kind of
Speaker 2: like Domino reciprocating spiral of fear and outrage and misunderstandings
Speaker 2: and miscommunications.
Speaker 1: Yeah, listeners should go to it because it gives such
Speaker 1: rich context while also being quite funny and entertaining and
Speaker 1: fucking scary.
Speaker 2: It's such a cool story. Thank you for having me
Speaker 2: on to talk about this awesome man.
Speaker 1: Well, listen. I can't wait to hear your band play
Speaker 1: and to watch you in whatever awesome movie or show
Speaker 1: you steal next, and I can't wait to listen to
Speaker 1: more snafu Okay. Season two is out now and season
Speaker 1: three is coming soon. Right, I appreciate you coming in, brother,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Thank you Arturo. You're so awesome at what you do.
Speaker 1: Keep doing it.
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much later, brother. Bye. Brady's Escapes is
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio and Film Nation Entertainment in association
Speaker 1: with Gilded Audio. Our executive producers from me Ar Turo
Speaker 1: Castro Alyssa Martino and Milan Papelka from Film Nation Entertainment,
Speaker 1: Andrew Chug and Witning Donaldson from Gilded Audio, and Dylan
Speaker 1: Fagan from iHeartRadio. The show is produced and edited by
Speaker 1: Carl Nellis and Ben Chubb, who are also, respectively, our
Speaker 1: research overlord and music overlord. Our associate producer is Tory Smith,
Speaker 1: who's our other overlord. Nick Dooley is our technical director.
Speaker 1: Additional editing by Whitney Donaldson. Special thanks to Alison Cohen,
Speaker 1: Dan Welsh, Ben Riizek, Sarah Joyner, Nicki Stein, Olivia Canny
Speaker 1: and Kelsey. All Right, Hey, thank you so much for listening,
Speaker 1: and if you're enjoying the show, please drop a rating
Speaker 1: or review. My mom will call you each personally and
Speaker 1: thank you, and we'll see you all next week