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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, this is Greatest Escapes, a show bringing you

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Speaker 1: the wildest true escape stories of all time. Today we're

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Speaker 1: telling the story of a Soviet spy who switched sides

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Speaker 1: and its Bonker's attempt to get away from the KGB

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Speaker 1: or as I pronounced good but good. I'm retro Castro

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Speaker 1: and my guest today is actor, writer, producer, comedian, musician,

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Speaker 1: Trappeeze Artists and host of his very own podcast, Snapho.

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Speaker 1: It's Ed Helms. Welcome, Ed, Thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: Honor to be here.

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Speaker 1: Thank You're fantastic. You're fantastic. Really, it means a lot

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Speaker 1: to me that you did this. Man, I'm such a

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Speaker 1: fan of your podcast, which we'll get into in one second.

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Speaker 1: Something about myself is I find white bearded dudes harmonizing

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Speaker 1: incredibly soothing. So I love folk music, man, I'm such

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Speaker 1: a big fan of folk music. Fleet Foxes give me

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Speaker 1: that Mumford and Sons, give me all that good stuff.

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Speaker 1: And you were in a folk band, Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never heard the appeal of folk music described

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Speaker 2: quite that way. I love, but I do love that

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Speaker 2: bearded white dudes harmonizing. Come on, they just got out

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Speaker 2: of the lumber trade. It either makes your skin crawl

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Speaker 2: or it just soothes you. And I honestly go back

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Speaker 2: and forth. Sometimes dracts me nuts. But yeah, my two

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Speaker 2: buddies from college, Jacob ty Love and Ian Riggs, we

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Speaker 2: went to Oberlin College together and I had a banjo

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Speaker 2: background from Whoa High school, and we just became this trio.

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Speaker 2: Then after college, we all moved to New York City

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Speaker 2: to kind of pursue different things, but kept the music going,

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Speaker 2: and the Loansome Trio lives on to this day.

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Speaker 1: Loansome Trio. That's wonderful. And I got to tell you, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not even a bit that I love folk music.

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Speaker 1: I've never I've never been really good at being like

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Speaker 1: kind of stereotypically Latin, like most people assume that I like,

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Speaker 1: I like salsa or like reggaetona shit, And I'm really

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Speaker 1: musically challenged, like rhythmically challenged in that sense. And I

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Speaker 1: heard Ray lomon Tyne for the first time when I

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Speaker 1: just moved to New York, and I was, you know,

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Speaker 1: I try to go to all my friends back and

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Speaker 1: want to moll and be like, you guys have to

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Speaker 1: hear this shit called folk music. It's like really sensitive,

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Speaker 1: like are you in the forest?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: Yea. So trying to convince people that I'm actually into

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Speaker 1: folk music has been a lifelong journey.

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Speaker 2: It's so funny.

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Speaker 1: To set the tone for this greatest escape thing. Do

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Speaker 1: you have one that you consider to be an escape

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Speaker 1: of your own?

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Speaker 2: No? You know what, there's a funny story. It's just

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Speaker 2: sort of a silly thing that happened in college. I

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Speaker 2: was really into this band, Fishbone. Do you remember this band?

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Speaker 1: They're like kind.

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Speaker 2: Of a heavy ska band.

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Speaker 1: Back in the day, that heavy, heavy sky.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, well what's funny is that they were they

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Speaker 2: were best friends with and toured with another band called Biohazard,

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Speaker 2: which was like real metal, like you know, death metal

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Speaker 2: kind of.

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Speaker 1: Right, and a ska man and a metal band. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they were sharp and.

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Speaker 2: They were really and they toured together a lot, and

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Speaker 2: they were very different acts. But everyone would just go

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Speaker 2: to these concerts and go bananas. And so I was

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Speaker 2: in college in Ohio and we some friends and I

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Speaker 2: went to go see them in Cleveland, and which is

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Speaker 2: you know, it's a rock.

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Speaker 1: And roll town. Were their fans called call themselves fish

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Speaker 1: Boners or Whatso I'm Sorry, that's the stupid question. But

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Speaker 1: I want to know question, and I don't.

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Speaker 2: I certainly didn't refer to myself as a fishboner at

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Speaker 2: the time, But had I thought of that, I think

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Speaker 2: I would have. I would have made a lot of

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Speaker 2: T shirts and made a lot of money. So you

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Speaker 2: were in Ohio, Okay, So we go to the We

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Speaker 2: go to the I think it's called the Apollo Theater

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Speaker 2: in Cleveland, Ohio to see Biohazard and Fishbone. Now I

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Speaker 2: was like really more into Fishbone, excited to see them,

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Speaker 2: and they were like kind of joyful, crazy sco but

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Speaker 2: Biohazard was first, and I was like, I love these

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Speaker 2: guys too. I mean, they're just super committed.

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Speaker 1: But I but I didn't know.

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Speaker 2: I kind of didn't know like death metal concert etiquette.

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Speaker 2: So I just was like, whatever is going to go down,

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Speaker 2: I want to be in the middle of it. I

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Speaker 2: want to be right up front. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: it's before the show and everybody's kind of like mingling

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Speaker 2: around and I'm looking around. I'm like, these guys look intense,

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Speaker 2: like there's a lot of there's like skinhead energy in

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Speaker 2: this crowd. It's like this is kind of a weird

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Speaker 2: vibe and uh, but like I'm I love just you know,

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Speaker 2: some human experience, like what's gonna have what's this going

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Speaker 2: to be?

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Speaker 1: Like? So I'm it's alive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I'm right down in front and uh

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Speaker 2: and they start playing that song Carmina Burana. Do you

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Speaker 2: know that that it's a famous it's this famous classical

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Speaker 2: music that's that sounds like it's from the omen like that.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So that they start playing that and it's getting

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Speaker 2: louder and louder, and the tension in the room is

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Speaker 2: just getting more and more intense and uh. And the

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Speaker 2: lights are going out and I'm on the I'm in

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Speaker 2: sort of the pit area and uh and it's really crowded,

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Speaker 2: like super dense, and people are starting to like jump

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Speaker 2: up and down and get like starting to get a

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Speaker 2: little bit I don't know, the energy is changing and uh.

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Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, a hole, like a

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Speaker 2: vacuum forms in the middle of the pit, which is

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Speaker 2: to say, like everyone everyone kind of realized at the

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Speaker 2: same moment that they didn't want to be in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the pit and it just started to open up.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what's gonna happen. There's a lot of

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Speaker 2: scary looking dudes around getting real intense and fired up

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Speaker 2: and excited. And then sure enough the lights come on

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Speaker 2: and the and bio hazard just and everyone rushes into

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Speaker 2: this void and crushes up against the front of the

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Speaker 2: stage with like really intense mosh pit rage and anger,

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Speaker 2: and like everyone's just throwing punches for but for fun.

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Speaker 2: Like it's just it's like, at first, I'm absolutely terrified.

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Speaker 2: How do I get out of this. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to get killed. I don't want to get like fall

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Speaker 2: down and get trampled or something. But the music is

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Speaker 2: also kind of awesome, and I start seeing people stage diving,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, okay, the people that are stage

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Speaker 2: diving are landing on top of the crowd and getting

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Speaker 2: passed back. So so I was like, this is this,

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Speaker 2: This is my escape. And so I managed to climb

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Speaker 2: up on the this this sort of stanchion or whatever

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Speaker 2: in front of the stage. There was like a you know,

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Speaker 2: a little row where these big burly security dudes were

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Speaker 2: guarding the stage, but in front of that you could

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Speaker 2: climb onto the railing and jump into the crowd, and

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Speaker 2: so I did. I climbed up and was just like

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Speaker 2: a landed on top and I was passed all the way.

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Speaker 1: To the back all the concession stand.

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Speaker 2: Directly to a guy handing me a congratulatory.

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Speaker 1: People and he's.

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Speaker 2: Like, congradulator, you're still alive. But yeah, so I did

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Speaker 2: escape with my life.

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Speaker 1: I'm really happy you did. And also like I love

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Speaker 1: that oh fuck moment that we've all had when you

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Speaker 1: realize that like you're in the wrong place at the

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Speaker 1: wrong time.

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Speaker 2: You know, like you're equipped.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, then you're ill equipped.

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Speaker 2: You just don't have the knowledge or the skills.

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Speaker 1: I just want to dance, you guys.

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Speaker 2: I'm wearing sneakers. You all have combat boots.

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Speaker 1: All right, man, let's escape. Let's rock and roll. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about Olegg's Great Escape. Okay, Now to

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Speaker 1: get us there, let's talk about who he was and

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Speaker 1: what made him that Soviet spy and why he switched

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Speaker 1: sides from the Soviets to the West. So, first of all,

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Speaker 1: he was in the family business, right, this was sort

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Speaker 1: of like a thing that they did. Now. His dad

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Speaker 1: was a hardcore communist, like to the level where he

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Speaker 1: joined the secret police and was put in charge of

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Speaker 1: indoctrinating new recruits, and that was how he raised his kids.

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Speaker 1: So you know, no barney for Oleg and his older brother, No, no,

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Speaker 1: they became KGB agents. Why wouldn't you. Inteen sixty six

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Speaker 1: only got his first assignment outside the USSR, where he

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Speaker 1: was posted to the Soviet embassy in Copenhagen. The Danish

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Speaker 1: government knew that he was there, but officially he was

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Speaker 1: just part of the embassy staff, but secretly his mission

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Speaker 1: was to manage the network of undercover spies throughout the country.

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Speaker 1: Not that this would have been a real surprise of

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Speaker 1: the Danes, because of the twenty workers of the Soviet embassy,

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Speaker 1: fourteen were spies.

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Speaker 2: I pretty much if you're if you're a Russian in

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Speaker 2: the sixties and seventies, like in another country, you're probably

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Speaker 2: a spy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. But also yeah, I imagine the dates were too

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Speaker 1: busy being happy to give a fuck about the spies.

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Speaker 1: They're like, un spies, Yeah, that's cool.

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Speaker 2: Like what are you gonna spy on it?

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Speaker 1: Like what do we have to hide? Yeah? A minimum

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Speaker 1: people like a home man spy FORID now, living outside

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Speaker 1: the iron grip of the Soviet Union was really exciting

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Speaker 1: for all like he enjoyed seeing just how lucy goosey

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Speaker 1: things were in Copenhagen. Yeah, do you remember the honeypot story?

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Speaker 1: Honey pot story?

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Speaker 2: I'm about to yeah, alright, Well is it honey pot

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Speaker 2: or honey trap?

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Speaker 1: I think honey pot? I believe is any pot. Honey

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Speaker 1: trap would be more. I'm happy to tell you it

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Speaker 1: is both a honey trap and a honey pot.

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Speaker 2: Well, you have to have a honeypot to ha to

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Speaker 2: set honey.

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Speaker 1: Trap it, you gotta have it, Thank you over lords.

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Speaker 2: All right, But no Olegg. I think we touched on

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Speaker 2: this before. But he's he was a critical character in

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Speaker 2: the whole Able Archer eighty three story that my podcast

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Speaker 2: is about. And I'm so psyched we're talking about him

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Speaker 2: because I have just the tiniest bit of knowledge about Olegg,

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Speaker 2: enough to maybe sound like a smarty pants, but not

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Speaker 2: enough to really contribute anything meaningful. But but but where

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Speaker 2: were we with Olegg?

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Speaker 1: He's so he's so he went for a stroll this

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Speaker 1: one time through the red light district, which it seems

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Speaker 1: like the North k State seemed to just all have

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Speaker 1: red light districts. You know, they just call him the district. Now,

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Speaker 1: I guess sure. So he browsed a show that was

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Speaker 1: selling sex toys, and he even bought some gay porn

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Speaker 1: and brought it home to show his wife. He probably

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Speaker 1: displayed it on his mantelpiece, because you know, freedom. He's like,

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Speaker 1: look at the old soul. They were so flexible, these men. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so he bought a gay porn magazine and he

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Speaker 1: put it on his mantle.

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Speaker 2: Literally, he's it. He's excited by the gay pornography, not

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Speaker 2: because it is erotic to him, but because it is

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Speaker 2: such He's like, can you believe that they are allowed

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Speaker 2: to do this?

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Speaker 1: And they put him in pictures on these lis of them,

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Speaker 1: and they put the red lights into fantastic you know,

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Speaker 1: so get everyone.

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Speaker 2: This would get you so quickly shot in the in

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Speaker 2: the Soviet Union that's on.

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Speaker 1: And so this, this little purchase is what kind of

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Speaker 1: sets us up for the goofiness of it. Because one

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Speaker 1: night a local police captain invited Olegg and his wife

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Speaker 1: over for a dinner so that the Danish spies could

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Speaker 1: sweep the apartment, and they spotted the magazine, and it

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Speaker 1: made them think that he was one hundred percent gay, right,

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Speaker 1: which is reasonable, Yes, I would say, particularly if it's

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Speaker 1: in your mantle piece, like I was just like you're like, hello,

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Speaker 1: welcome to my house, and here is my here is

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Speaker 1: what I love to do when my wife's not here.

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Speaker 2: I just want to comment just that this story could

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Speaker 2: never happen today, Like if somebody showed you pornography in

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Speaker 2: an excited way and they were like, can you.

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Speaker 1: Believe this is so?

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Speaker 2: Look at up the how exuberantly free and happy these

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Speaker 2: people in this pornographic magazine are.

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Speaker 1: And look what we're all smiling. Except it is one

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Speaker 1: guy and he's got a mask on.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So the Danes go to his apartment they find

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Speaker 2: this gay pornography and they're like, oh, obviously he's gay.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to set a honey trap there you go,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to uh try to blackmail him to

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Speaker 2: be a an informant because we know he's KGB. We

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Speaker 2: want to flip him. So then they get they get

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Speaker 2: a guy to hit on him at a party, right right,

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Speaker 2: and and ol Like's just like oh what a nice guy,

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Speaker 2: guy like friendly and like make it. They just get

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Speaker 2: nowhere with it, like there's just no traction because that's

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Speaker 2: not that's not Olegg's persuasion. So, uh, it's just a

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Speaker 2: failed honey trap.

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Speaker 1: Also, I can imagine, like so the Eagle hit that

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Speaker 1: that like devilishly handsome young man must have had. He's

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Speaker 1: like the Danish, like's wrong with you? Don't like sea?

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Speaker 1: That's beautiful?

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Speaker 2: I was specifically chosen as a honey trap.

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Speaker 1: I am the hottest agent, I am so sexy. What

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Speaker 1: the fuck is wrong with this guy? And meanwhile olegs

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Speaker 1: his house me like mean, man, these days are really

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Speaker 1: fucking nice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So in the end, it wasn't actually the Danish recruiting

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Speaker 1: that swayed him to turn against the Iron Curtain, but

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Speaker 1: it was the Soviets themselves. In nineteen sixty eight, the

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Speaker 1: Soviets brutally crushed the prog Spring when Hanks rolled into

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Speaker 1: Czechoslovakia to squash an uprising. There's incredibly violent, incredibly bloody.

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Speaker 1: So before this, Olegg had this dreamy idea of what

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Speaker 1: the Soviet Union was, the stuff that he had learned

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Speaker 1: from his dad about how good it was to be

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Speaker 1: a communist, you know, But seeing the progue Spring finally

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Speaker 1: convinced him how brutal the USSR was. Sure, so Olegg

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Speaker 1: was an unhappy Soviet in nineteen seventy two, when one

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Speaker 1: of his old friends showed up at his apartment unannounced.

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Speaker 1: By the way that he was talking, Olegg realized that

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Speaker 1: he was being tested by Western spies to see if

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Speaker 1: he would flip. Right. Chatting with his buddy, he said

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Speaker 1: how disappointed he was in the Soviet Union, and it

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Speaker 1: was a message to them that he was ready to

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Speaker 1: cooperate in the West. Now, I wonder what do you think?

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Speaker 1: What do you think? He was saying that like made

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Speaker 1: him realize that he was getting recruited about the West.

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Speaker 2: I just imagine that these kinds of conversations between spies

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Speaker 2: where they're trying to sort of suss each other out

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Speaker 2: and figure out if am.

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Speaker 1: I giving it?

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Speaker 2: Like is he giving me a signal? And he's giving

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Speaker 2: me an opening. I would just I picture of those

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Speaker 2: conversations as super tense and and like lots of like

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Speaker 2: overt winking and kind of like and like wild gesturing

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Speaker 2: yes and like and like fake laughing but with like

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Speaker 2: but with like weird intense eyes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it would. It would be crazy if I like

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Speaker 1: the McDonald's.

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Speaker 2: But Oleg is really he's a really fascinating double agent. Ultimately,

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Speaker 2: because he's an idealist and he's not a like like

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Speaker 2: a lot of double agents are, uh the money. They're

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Speaker 2: either in it for the money, or they're psychotic and

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Speaker 2: they just want the thrill of it, or because.

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Speaker 1: They they've been sight they've been, or because.

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Speaker 2: They hate their homeland and they want, you know, they

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Speaker 2: they want to sort of like doom their homeland for

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Speaker 2: some reason. But like there are Americans who who wound

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Speaker 2: up hating America and becoming double agents four or the

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Speaker 2: Soviets at the time. But what's fascinating about Oleg is

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Speaker 2: that he never didn't love Russia and or the Soviet

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Speaker 2: Union or what Russia kind of represented historically, and he

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Speaker 2: never he never stopped hoping for the best for Russia,

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Speaker 2: and he felt that by helping the West, he was

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Speaker 2: helping Russia's future, the Soviet future.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and to your point, here's where we see how

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Speaker 1: clever Olegg is right, because he also told the KGB

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Speaker 1: that he was going to go meet with a British agent.

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Speaker 1: So his bosses in Moscow told him to go for it.

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Speaker 1: They wanted to see if they could use Gordievski as

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Speaker 1: a false double agent to fool the British but they

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Speaker 1: didn't know that Oleg was for real, for real right,

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Speaker 1: ready to switch sides. When Oleg finally met with the British,

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Speaker 1: he agreed to work with them under three conditions. First,

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Speaker 1: he didn't want to attack or injure any other KGB agents.

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Speaker 1: He was not offering to become a British assassin, you know. Second,

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Speaker 1: he he didn't want to be secretly photographed recorded, which

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Speaker 1: makes a lot of fucking I can't imagine like a

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Speaker 1: spy being like, but just takes lots of pictures of me,

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Speaker 1: Please just like make sure that you get a good one.

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Speaker 1: It's from my album. And Third, he would take absolutely

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Speaker 1: no pay. He wasn't doing this for the money. He

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Speaker 1: was doing it because he no longer believed in this

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Speaker 1: in how the Soviets were running it. You know, right,

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Speaker 1: what would it take for you to become a spy

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Speaker 1: ed in this time? What would they have to offer you?

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Speaker 1: You're a Soviet Union and you're like, they're like you

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Speaker 1: gotta defective America? What would it take?

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Speaker 2: Let's see, this is nineteen, this is about four, okay,

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Speaker 2: nine said four, So I'm I'm like about one years old.

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Speaker 1: I would it's just like a good I would just

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Speaker 1: think like a bottle of milk would A bottle of

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Speaker 1: milk would, right, And then you're immediately a double agent immediately.

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Speaker 1: So in nineteen seventy four, Old Egg started sneaking roles

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Speaker 1: of microfilm of documents out of the Soviet headquarters on

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Speaker 1: his lunch breaks. Right, he would hand them off to

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Speaker 1: be copied, pick them up on his way back, and

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Speaker 1: drop them off again before anyone noticed they were missing.

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Speaker 1: But this was also the year that he got his

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Speaker 1: first code name from the British, and they named him Sunbeam.

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Speaker 1: What would be your code name, Cowboy Rid? No, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, Cowboy Rid. I would like mine to be

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Speaker 1: a fish boner. Nobody would know. So nineteen seventy four

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Speaker 1: was also the year that Olegg met his second wife, Layla.

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Speaker 1: She was a secretary at the World Health Organization in Copenhagen,

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Speaker 1: and the pair began a very low key, very slow

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Speaker 1: motion affair. You know, he had code names for this

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Speaker 1: affair too, was what is a slow motion affair? Overlords?

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Speaker 1: What is this that it happened? Was it tantric? Is

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Speaker 1: that what you're referring to, like slow motion is just

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Speaker 1: slow simmering? Answer me that is correct. It took many

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Speaker 1: years for him to leave his first wife and choose Laila. Okay, slow,

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Speaker 1: most affair, got it. So Olegg was leaving the Soviets

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Speaker 1: for the British, and he was also leaving his first

355
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Speaker 1: wife for Laila. Also, women named Leila tended to make

356
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Speaker 1: men in the seventies go insane George Harris and Eric Clapton,

357
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Speaker 1: you know, which is also a crazy story in of itself.

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Speaker 1: Her name was actually Patty Voyd, but whatever in the way,

359
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Speaker 1: she Masha. So after four years, in nineteen seventy eight,

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Speaker 1: things were going really well for both of them, right,

361
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Speaker 1: but Olegg was recalled to Russia. So pack your bags, ed,

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Speaker 1: we're going to the Kremlin. Oligg was stationed in Moscow

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Speaker 1: for the next few years, and he spent this time

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Speaker 1: building his new family with late.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, right, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: They were married in nineteen seventy nine and their first

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Speaker 1: daughter was born the next year. Now, meanwhile, she had

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Speaker 1: no idea that he was actually a double agent between

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Speaker 1: the Soviet Union for the British. And Olegg was never

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Speaker 1: really comfortable in Russia anymore, so he wanted to be

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Speaker 1: back in England.

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Speaker 2: There was no gay pornography, which at that point for

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Speaker 2: him again not a turn on, just was something that

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Speaker 2: had become like a comfort.

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Speaker 1: He's like, yes, yes, it's democracy, but about the gay

376
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Speaker 1: board on the wad this it.

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Speaker 2: Was a comfort blanket for him, just wants to know

378
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:18,280
Speaker 2: it's there.

379
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Speaker 1: Exactly. So, in the summer of nineteen eighty one, Oleg

380
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:26,119
Speaker 1: passed this super spy English exam that qualified him for

381
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,919
Speaker 1: a post at the Russian Embassy in London. And this

382
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,720
Speaker 1: is where you're talking about. So by the by that fall,

383
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,399
Speaker 1: his second daughter was born and the KGB were finally

384
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Speaker 1: convinced that the new marriage was more solid than the

385
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Speaker 1: first one. This feels like a weird detail, but it

386
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Speaker 1: was important because it helped the KGB decide that Olegg

387
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Speaker 1: could be trusted.

388
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Speaker 2: Right.

389
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Speaker 1: They're like, if he can make two marriages work, he

390
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Speaker 1: can do this.

391
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Speaker 2: Well, no, they it is true that that that the KGB,

392
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Speaker 2: if you had a rocky relationship with a spouse, then

393
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Speaker 2: you're a risky agent.

394
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Speaker 1: Which makes sense, right, Coral Kla couldn't.

395
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,119
Speaker 2: There was like more openings for you know, to get

396
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Speaker 2: in trouble or blackmailed or whatever.

397
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,879
Speaker 1: Exactly, And they're like, well, this man wasn't happy in

398
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Speaker 1: his first marriage, he left and created the second marriage.

399
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 1: This is a reliable man, so they let him take

400
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,080
Speaker 1: the job in London. And because if there's anything to

401
00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 1: be said about the KGB, it's they're romantics. Finally, when

402
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,639
Speaker 1: Olegg arrived in London in June nineteen eighty two, he

403
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,120
Speaker 1: was an easy reach of his British spy friends. Now

404
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,160
Speaker 1: he could pass them even more information and even lower risk.

405
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,679
Speaker 1: The British spies decided to switch it up with his

406
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,680
Speaker 1: nickname with his code name, and the new code name

407
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,679
Speaker 1: was nocked In. Well, this was his British code name, okay,

408
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,160
Speaker 1: So the Brits were passing along until to the CIA too.

409
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,680
Speaker 1: And the Americans didn't know Nockton's identity, which is important later,

410
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 1: but they did know that he was a high ranking

411
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: KGB officer, so they gave him their own nickname and

412
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 1: code name. The spy community is going to be up

413
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 1: in arms that I keep calling it a nickname. They

414
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:02,160
Speaker 1: called him Tickle, so now he is Tickle right right right.

415
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 1: I love the idea of like a copywriter being like,

416
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 1: what's a catchy one? You know that that's their only

417
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 1: their only job is to pick code names, because that's

418
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 1: what we feel. We feel tickled when we get this information.

419
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 1: He so once he was in London, he was able

420
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Speaker 1: to spend hours talking with him discussing the KGB methods,

421
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 1: the identity of hidden agents. You know, it's just tons

422
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,160
Speaker 1: of secrets that six had never understood before. Now. Meanwhile,

423
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 1: the rest of the KGB was focused on the idea

424
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,160
Speaker 1: of whether or not the United States and the rest

425
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,440
Speaker 1: of the European allies we're going to start a nuclear war.

426
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 1: That's where it comes in boom. But one important thing

427
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 1: is that the KGB spies were supposed to be tracking

428
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: all sorts of weird things, right like looking for signs

429
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Speaker 1: that the West was preparing for a sudden nuclear attack.

430
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Speaker 2: Uh no, but it really, it really was a fascinating

431
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 2: that this system that the Soviets set up where they

432
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 2: were basically telling their spies like, give us intel so

433
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Speaker 2: that we can try to figure out if attack is

434
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 2: getting planned. And it was things like you know, how

435
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 2: many lights are on at the Pentagon, that's exactly, and

436
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 2: and you're like, well, I don't know, there's a hundred

437
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 2: lights on tonight at the Pentagon, okay, but usually there's

438
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 2: two hundred, So what's going on? They're planning something. Yeah,

439
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,199
Speaker 2: And there were some things that you could point to

440
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 2: that were more practical, like are you seeing troop movements?

441
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 2: Are you seeing like hospitals building up supplies, or you know,

442
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 2: things that might indicate they expect to have lots of casualties.

443
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 2: Those might be reasonable indicators of potential war conflict. But

444
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 2: so much of it was not reasonable that it became

445
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 2: this insane, crazy, arbitrary algorithm arbitry.

446
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, it just seems like so like ineffable,

447
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: where people were like, I don't know, tell me how

448
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 1: much how many burgers are there stashing? Right, because they

449
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: wanted to know how many they did. They wanted to

450
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 1: know how many cows were getting killed at a slaughter house.

451
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:01,640
Speaker 1: The one that you're talking about is like they were

452
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: monitoring how much blood was being stashed in blood banks,

453
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: which makes a little more sense, but like cow's I

454
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 1: don't fucking know, man.

455
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 2: Right, But it is just it just it's like if

456
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 2: you're convinced something's gonna happen. And a lot of historians

457
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: believe that the Soviets really did think that NATO was

458
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 2: going to attack them, and so if you think that

459
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 2: everything you see is going to be through that prism,

460
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 2: and you're going to be like, uh, what's the reason

461
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 2: that all of this extra cowslaughtering indicator indicates an appending

462
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: nuclear attack? And you just sort of fill in the

463
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 2: blanks and all of a sudden you have all these reasons.

464
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 1: So our guy Olegg is caught in the middle of this, right,

465
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: he was telling I six everything he knew about the KGB,

466
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: and then he was telling the KGB whatever they wanted

467
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 1: to hear about how many cookies were in the fucking

468
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 1: shop or whatever it was, right, right, So he knew

469
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: that this put him in a really dangerous spot, and

470
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: he was right to be worried. Right, the KGB didn't

471
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: know that someone was passing their secrets to the British

472
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: because the British were sharing those secrets with the Americans

473
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: and the Russians, which I did not know had a

474
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: spy in the CIA. So fortunately for Olegg, the Brits

475
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: weren't telling the CIA about Tickle's identity. That was in

476
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: part because they enjoyed dangling secrets over the Americans. So

477
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: that's really a win for being petty, you know, sure,

478
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: then thank you thank you for being mad at your cousins.

479
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: So the Russians were really on the hunt for their trader,

480
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 1: and if the KGB found out that it was Olegg,

481
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 1: they were probably this is what they do. They call

482
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: him back to Russia to squeeze him for information before

483
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: they finally did away with him. Right. But now, if

484
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,120
Speaker 1: he needed an escape route back to England, he would

485
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: need to get his wife and his two kids out

486
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: as well. So together with the British spies, they cooked

487
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: up this plan called Operation Pimlico name for the Pimlico

488
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: neighborhood in London. Are you ready for the super intelligence

489
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: spy plan? Oh yeah, okay, here we go, very elaborate.

490
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: If things go bad in Russia, they would stuff ole

491
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: Egg in the trunk of a car and drive like

492
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: fucking hell to Europe. That's it, that was a fun

493
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: I should do not And if the whole Gordievski family

494
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: was together, then the plan became much more elaborate. They

495
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: would stuff one man, one woman and two children in

496
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: the trunks of two cars and then drive like hell

497
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: to Europe. Who is thank god? I would be like

498
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: the guys. I feel safe, I feel heard, I feel understood,

499
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: I would.

500
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: Be like, Okay, so I'm gonna go back. I'm in London,

501
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 2: I'm happy as a clam. My family is all happy.

502
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 2: I'm about to go back to Russia to find out

503
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,959
Speaker 2: if they know I'm a spy. If they do know

504
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 2: I'm a spy, then you stick me in a trunk

505
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 2: and try to get me back. And by the way,

506
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: I'm also claustrophobic, so I'm not down with any of them.

507
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 1: No. Also, but that you bring up a really interesting

508
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 1: point that I'm like, why do you go back anyway? Like,

509
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, If you know that you

510
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,479
Speaker 1: are an imminent threat, why go through the fucking process

511
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 1: of like just checking in, you know?

512
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 2: Because I think it's you're getting into the psychology of

513
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 2: spies at this point, which I can never wrap my

514
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 2: head around, Like the amount of information and the amount

515
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: of kind of like ruses and and lies that you

516
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 2: have to kind of maintain to be a spy, let

517
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 2: alone a double agent. Right, It's incredible, It's mind blowing.

518
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 2: And what's more insane about these guys people like Gordievski

519
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: and I got to interview a KGB spy he did,

520
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: Jack Barski, Yeah, And what's crazy about these guys is

521
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 2: that they're so confident. If you were like, Okay, Moscow

522
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 2: wants you to come home and check in, and if

523
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 2: you don't come home, then they're gonna know you're a

524
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 2: double agent, and so you better go home. But so

525
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 2: in my mind, you're like, well, maybe I should just

526
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: take my chances and stay here, because if I do

527
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 2: go back and then they then they interrogate me, am

528
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 2: I more screwed? Well, a guy like Gordievski is so

529
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 2: confident that he's been playing his cards perfectly the whole

530
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: time that he's like, eh, I'll just go back, but

531
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 2: they don't. I know, they don't have anything on me.

532
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 2: I know that they might suspect I'm a double agent,

533
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 2: but they can't prove it. And I know they can't

534
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 2: prove it. Now what that's an insane level of confidence.

535
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 2: Like to me, I would be like, I think I

536
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: cover all my bases, but I'm not sure. I mean, like, it.

537
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: Wouldn't take that much if they tell me come back

538
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: to Rush. I was like, that's it. I'm dead, Yeah,

539
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 1: fucking I'm safe. But you know, to your point too,

540
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: like that, once you're in that mindset and you've been

541
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: so used to just playing this card. Yeah, I don't

542
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: think it dawns on you the option of just staying right,

543
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,959
Speaker 1: because then that just defeats the whole thing that you like,

544
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: whatever you build your personality around, and your mind game's about,

545
00:28:58,360 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: like you don't know how to do anything? Are you

546
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: sort of going on autopilot by going back to this sovietnion?

547
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: And we're looking at this from the standpoint of like

548
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: we're just average schmos who if we got put in

549
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: these situations, we would melt down and something like a

550
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: canary and just.

551
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: Be like gilt.

552
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: Right at this point, Oleg Gordievsky is I think he's

553
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 2: been a double agent for over ten years. He has

554
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 2: an incredible, uh, set of skills, set of kind of

555
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 2: like mind games, and like I said, confidence and this

556
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: is just part of it. You go back and you

557
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 2: play the game, and he just feels like he'll get

558
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: away with it and he'll get that almost.

559
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: But that confidence almost been him in the ass. It

560
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: It really did, Yeah, it did. So in May nineteen

561
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: eighty five, it finally happened. Right the KGB recalled Olig

562
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: to Moscow via telegram, so they said that he was

563
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: getting a promotion and needed to come back for some

564
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: high level secret preparations. But things didn't feel quite right

565
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: for Oleg right, so he confirmed with his British context

566
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: if he gave the signal, they would launch Operation Pimlico

567
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: to get him out of Russia. On May nineteenth, nineteen

568
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: eighty five, Olegg arrived in Moscow, where he had had

569
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: an apartment. There's a feeling that he got. He describes

570
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: a chill shooting up his spine, which if you're of

571
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: a spy like Oleg, that doesn't seem overly paranoid. That's

572
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: a really bad sign. The dead bold lock on his

573
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: apartment had been turned, so his place must have been

574
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: combed by other agents before he arrived. They were searching

575
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: vigorously for gay pornography. On the right side, he was

576
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: now a colonel in the KGB, so there were rules

577
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: about how to treat somebody of his rank. The Soviets

578
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,479
Speaker 1: actually have to gather evidence and hold a trial if

579
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: they suspected him, So that bought him some time, you know,

580
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: but Oleg knew that they were onto him. After a

581
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: few days, Gordievski was called in for questioning, and this

582
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: is what we're talking about that, we would have fucking

583
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: folded this guy. In the interrogation, the other KGB agents

584
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,959
Speaker 1: gave a spiked brandy and dug for details about his

585
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: British and Danish contacts. They asked him questions for hours,

586
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: and eventually Oleg blocked out. Now he doesn't even know

587
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: what the fuck happened. He was just allowed to leave

588
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: after he came to, so he could only guess that

589
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: he didn't give up anything about his counter or espionage.

590
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: How fucking scared would you be? Bro? If you're like

591
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: if you're like, do you think you have your shit together?

592
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: And then you block out? And then you come back

593
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: and we have all we wanted. Like I'm like, what

594
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: if I like, dude, I have two tequilas. I'm like

595
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: spilling fucking family secrets.

596
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 2: Man, I cannot even imagine that.

597
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: So at the end of May, Leylan and the kids

598
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: were brought back to Moscow and told that Old Egg

599
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: was sick. But when they get there, he didn't want

600
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: to let him know how dangerous things were, so he

601
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 1: acted like things for you know, like everything's fine, I'm fine,

602
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: you guys, okay, Like why is it? Don't be weird

603
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: about it? And he sent them off to a vacation

604
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: at the Caspian c Now, he says the same goodbye

605
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: was the hardest thing that he'd ever done. By the

606
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: time they would get back to Moscow, he was either

607
00:31:52,960 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: going to be dead or in exile. After this time

608
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: in the hospital, he was back in Moscow that July,

609
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: he felt eyes on him everywhere right. He feared it

610
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: was only a matter of time before he was snatched.

611
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: So if it was finally time to engage in Pimlico.

612
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: So the plan was supposed to go like this. Olegg

613
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: was supposed to stand on the street at seven thirty

614
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: am and he would be holding a crucial signal, this

615
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: plastic bag from the Safeway grocery store, signaling that he

616
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: needs a safe way out of this fucking place.

617
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 2: Do you believe what's so insane is it's like, we

618
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: give these spies so much credit for being like masterminds

619
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: and coming up with these elaborate schemes. And you can

620
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: just imagine Olegg talking to his I six handlers and

621
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: he's like, Okay, so what's the plan, guys, And they're like, uh,

622
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 2: you gonna stand there with a grocery bag if it's

623
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 2: a Safeway grocery bag. Huh, you're gonna jump in the trunk?

624
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: Wait what okay? Then but and then and then what? Oh?

625
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 2: Well, then we just drive. We drive, okay, and you

626
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 2: go we go to this like a safe house somewhere

627
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: and then getting in a hot air balloon or no,

628
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 2: we just we just go. We drive to Europe and

629
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 2: we hope for the best.

630
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna but we're gonna bring really positive attitudes.

631
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 2: And yes, I forgot. There's a lot of positive energy

632
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 2: around this whole operation. We've been we've been doing a

633
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: lot of like sold searching, Yeah, a lot of meditation.

634
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 2: We're just getting we're getting real psyched about it.

635
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: We're bringing our energy coach Ananda. His real name is Jeff,

636
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: but he is coming along for the ride and he's

637
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: very excited.

638
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 2: So wait, I just want to be clear. So I

639
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 2: just come to stand there with a bag, and then

640
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: I just jump in a car and the truck of

641
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 2: a car and and that's it.

642
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: Are we fucking fie? Are we just to come up

643
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: with coal? Shit? That doesn't sound good enough. So in

644
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: response to this fucking Safeway bag, another man would walk

645
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: past him, holding a green bag from the luxury department

646
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: store Harrod's, and he would be eating chocolate bar. Then

647
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: Olig was supposed to wait for three days, go to

648
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: church and pass a little note with the details of

649
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: his situation, and then wait again. So Olegg followed his

650
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: plan right. He did his little safe way shopping back

651
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: thing at the street corner. Message sent, but he didn't

652
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 1: notice anybody else following the plan. There were no herods back,

653
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: no with chocolates being eaten. So Oleg nervously waited three

654
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 1: days and went to church and he scribbled on a

655
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: little note that he was ready to pass along right,

656
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: and it said need excultration. He worried the whole way

657
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 1: that he was going to be found out because part

658
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 1: of the plan was for him to wear a hat

659
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: in church, and no one wears a hat in church.

660
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 2: No, not in Moscow.

661
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,959
Speaker 1: Not in Moscow, you don't. When OI got to the church,

662
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: there was a sign hanging out in the front which

663
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: said all hats are welcome. No, they just said that

664
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: it was closed for redecoration. So Oli freed the fuck out.

665
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: He dashed back home, chewed up and swallowed his note

666
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: so it would never be found, and to sleep. He

667
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 1: crammed himself with sedatives and Cuban rum, which also, to

668
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,919
Speaker 1: be honest, at this stage of his expltation, I would

669
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: be a full blown alcoholic man. Like you gotta have

670
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: something going on for you to cons I.

671
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: Mean the anxiety, That's what I just can't imagine. I

672
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 2: can't carry a lot like any kind of lie around.

673
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 2: I just I can't pull it off. I'm too I'm

674
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 2: just too much of a nervous nelly to let alone

675
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 2: like these grand life or death.

676
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 1: You know, I spent sleepless nights. If a wader says

677
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: welcome to the restaurant, I say thanks you too, like

678
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 1: I spent. I'll spin a sleepless night and be like,

679
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: oh fuck, I fucked it up. I fucked it.

680
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 2: You know he was already there.

681
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: He didn't know what he doesn't. Yeah, I'm the one

682
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: coming to his establishment. God damn it. What a rude

683
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: thing to say. So the next Tuesday, anxiety driven as

684
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: he is, he went back to the street corner once again.

685
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: He flew his Safeway shopping bag, and he was just

686
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: screaming internally the whole time, until finally another man walked

687
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: by him carrying a green bag and munching on a

688
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: chocolate Mars bar while making direct eye contact with Olegg

689
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: as he marched by. Message received boom. Also, I mean,

690
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: such an awkward, fucking secret spy signal, But fuck.

691
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 2: It, it's hard to look sort of serious and like

692
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: a spy guy chewing on a chocolate bar.

693
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 1: And making uninterrupted eye contact. Lah. And it turned out

694
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: to be the Danish agent, like he's just hoping for

695
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: a second run at the honeypotty. He's like, you're gonna

696
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: fucking look me in the eye this time. So for

697
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 1: the next two days, Olegg visited friends and families, saying

698
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: his goodbyes. You know, he talked about literature with his friends,

699
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 1: He jogged around his neighborhood. He tried to act as

700
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 1: normal as possible. He was the only one that knew

701
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: that he was about to run for his life in

702
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: a very non complicated way. So now we get to

703
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: the final bit of it, which is the day finally

704
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 1: came Oleg dunked out of his apartment. Now he knew

705
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: he was being followed, so he jogged directly into a

706
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 1: thick patch of trees and sig zagged his to the

707
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: train station, where he boarded on a trip toward Finland,

708
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: and this trip was wild man, so Oleg took too

709
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: many sedatives on the train, and then he ended up

710
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 1: falling out of a high bunk bed and gashing his

711
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: head open. So he stumbled around, bleeding on people like

712
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, not exactly keeping a low profile, right, yeah, exactly,

713
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 1: screaming about harrods and safeways like shut the fuck up, hole,

714
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: like you're so close now. When he finally caught a

715
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: bus near the finished border, Oleg went through a bonker

716
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: sequence of events right to get to the To get

717
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: the bus to stop at the right place, he convinced

718
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: the driver to pull over, telling him that he was

719
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 1: going to barf all over the seats, So the bus

720
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: let him out on the side of the road, where

721
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: he pretended to yak into the bushes until it drove away.

722
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 1: Once he was alone, Olig realized that he was way

723
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: too early for his meeting with the British Buys to

724
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: pick him up. So what does he do?

725
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 2: He this is amazing, This is truly the hubris of

726
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: these so.

727
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: You know what, this is fucking nuts. So he he waits?

728
00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 1: Does he wait for a little like a good little

729
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: I defect.

730
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 2: What should you do?

731
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: What should you do in this? Stand here and wait?

732
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: You stand there, or you fucking wait.

733
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 2: Or you hide in the bushes.

734
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: He was like four hours early, right, it was like

735
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: a day early, man, Like you don't have to like survive, yeah,

736
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: and like take a nap, but watch people going by,

737
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: read a fucking book. But no, no, our pal Olegg

738
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: had a little rumbley in his little tummy, so he

739
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: decided to hitchhike to the nearest town and sit down

740
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: for lunch. He slammed down a beer, he ate some chicken,

741
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: bought another beer for the road, and he started walking

742
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: back to the meeting place.

743
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 2: By the way, it's eighteen miles. It's not just like

744
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: around the corner. It's like it's it's.

745
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: Far faster you walking, bro, Like yeah, it's it's completely

746
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: four hours and only only now he realized that he

747
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,439
Speaker 1: had taken too long and that he might be late.

748
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 1: This is the first moment it strikes him when he's

749
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: walking back, right, So internally he was like what the

750
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: fuck am I doing? Like why did I not just

751
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: wait there? Because externainly he was just like walking around

752
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: with the bottle beer, sprinding down the road, as fast

753
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 1: as it could have been. Like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

754
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,720
Speaker 1: You know. The worst of all, he was wearing corduroy pants,

755
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: which is a very Yeah, that's a lot of chafing, Boddy,

756
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know about it. If you've ever

757
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 1: walked out.

758
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 2: It's gonna make a lot of noise. That's a lot

759
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 2: of swishing.

760
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: None of this is his spy Like, he's like just chicken.

761
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: His pieces of chicken are falling off of him. He's

762
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: shaking beer. He's just in Corday's weird. So fortunately, Oleg

763
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: finally heard a truck going in the right direction, so

764
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: he stuck out a thumb and caught another ride back

765
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: to cover the sixteen miles. He would have never made

766
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: it on his own. Now, this is a true story.

767
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: He tried to In order to convince the truck driver

768
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: to step in the middle of nowhere, Oleg told the

769
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: truck driver that he had an appointment to have sex

770
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: in the woods, and the driver agreed. Obviously, the driver

771
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: didn't look at his corduroy pants, because everybody knows you

772
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: can't have sex in the woods with courterory pants.

773
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 2: I guess that is a good a good way to

774
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: just sort of be like, hey, we're in the middle

775
00:39:58,680 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 2: of nowhere, but I need to get out of your

776
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,720
Speaker 2: t rock, Like what could you get? Is there any other.

777
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 1: Good excuses that I would get to be like, I

778
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: am so sorry. Listen, dude, I was planning on robbing you,

779
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: but I've changed my mind. Leave me off here, you

780
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: know one of these which they might get you shot.

781
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:13,879
Speaker 1: I don't know.

782
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: I'm a botanist. And there's like a really rare plant

783
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 2: over here.

784
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 1: What is that called the fucking autobun Society. It's like,

785
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: if I don't fucking catch his bird, I'm gonna be

786
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: the embarrassment, you understand. And the truck driver, being a

787
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: fellow autobund Society member, was like, say no more. The

788
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: problem is getting him to go away. Me posted here's

789
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: my number. So Olegg swatted mosquitos and swig from his

790
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 1: beer once he finally got there, And finally he's waiting

791
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: on the spot where his two cars pull up and

792
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: his rescuers jumped out. Now there was a price to

793
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: see only one man and not the whole family as

794
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: they had plan for. But they opened the trunk for

795
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: ole Egg and he dove inside and they rebbed the engines,

796
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: and now ole Egg was finally racing towards the border.

797
00:40:57,960 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: Now in the trunk, he had a bottle of water,

798
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: setups for his children which he's not gonna use now,

799
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: and a spacelanket. They also knew that the Soviet scanned

800
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: cars with infrared cameras at the finished border, so they

801
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: hoped that the metallic space blanket would hide Olegg from

802
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: the cameras and allow them to pass through. Did they

803
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: do any fucking tests on it, like they were hoping,

804
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: you were, Lily.

805
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 2: Here's like some plastic cell aphane wrapped yourself in this.

806
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: Chew on these ice cubes. That's going to make it

807
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 1: bring your body temperature down. So the sedatives were OLiS

808
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: first moved. He pounded them, and fortunately they also gave

809
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 1: him an empty jug for a piss. Now, over the

810
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: next half hour, from the darkness of the trunk, Oleg

811
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 1: felt them stop at four different Soviet checkpoints on the

812
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 1: way to the border. They all seem to be quick

813
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: conversations while the drivers and the passengers showed papers, but

814
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: they kept music playing in the car radios and it

815
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 1: seemed like they were doing just fine. Now, the fifth

816
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: stop is when it gets tricky. Oh boy, the engine

817
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 1: switched off and all they could hear voices They had

818
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 1: reached customs. Olig heard the officers talking and men with

819
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 1: dogs circling the cars. Now one of the British officers

820
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: started feeding chips to the dogs while another complained with

821
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,760
Speaker 1: a Soviet official about the annoyance of students in Moscow.

822
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: That was it, That was like, what did I like

823
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: it that they found his one niche thing that he

824
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 1: loves to complain about, So yeah, I can go. So finally,

825
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: after what felt like an hour, the British officers climbed

826
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: back inside the car, crossed from the highway to a

827
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: dirt hole on They didn't just check the trunk nope, huh,

828
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 1: because the British bis were just like, hey, fuck is students?

829
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: Am I right? They were both from like, I don't know,

830
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: benson Hurst, Brooklyn in this scenario. But there was also

831
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,439
Speaker 1: one more thing, which was that the British agents brought

832
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: a baby with them and while the guards were talking

833
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 1: with the driver, she actually got out and gave the

834
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 1: baby a diaper change on the trunk of the car.

835
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: So the Soviet guards was just like, I don't like

836
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: a baby, this is poop. I don't like to do this.

837
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: So they didn't even make them open it. What So

838
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: they managed to talk their way out of it by

839
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: complaining about students in Moscow and by feeding chips to

840
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: the dogs. All right, So finally, after all this tension,

841
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: they're in a dirt road and they finally come to

842
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: a stop outside a stand of pine trees. When the

843
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: truck open, Olegg was met by the friendly face of

844
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 1: his English handler. He had just escaped the KGB. Yay,

845
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,760
Speaker 1: good for you, but he had left his family behind.

846
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 2: There's some aspect to a lot of these guys that's

847
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 2: somewhat psychopathic.

848
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: So because it was successful, Operation Piblico is remembered as

849
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:35,919
Speaker 1: one of the most daring escapes of the Cold War.

850
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 1: A lot of other KGB defectors died trying to escape,

851
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: so it's kind of a miracle. Like truly, the Gordyaevsky

852
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: got out. Ever since he's basically spent the rest of

853
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 1: his life trying not to get killed by KGB assassins.

854
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: Now six wasn't surprised, of course, Like one officer said,

855
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: he made absolute fools of the KGB. The only way

856
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: that they did have to get back at him was

857
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: to hold his family hostage, started lobbying world leaders asking

858
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: them for help. He even flew to the US and

859
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: he went to the White House where he met with

860
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,399
Speaker 1: President Reagan and he asked for the US to get

861
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: his kids back.

862
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 2: This is also a fascinating moment in the Able Archer

863
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 2: story because in the run up to the Able Archer conflict,

864
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 2: ol Gordievski was trying to tell his Soviet handlers that guys,

865
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 2: there's crazy tension between the East and the West, but

866
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: they're not trying to nuke you. They're not planning to

867
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 2: nuke you. When he went to talk to Reagan, he

868
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 2: actually was also trying to take credit for avoiding nuclear

869
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,800
Speaker 2: conflict to some extent by saying, like, look, I helped

870
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: avoid you know, a nuclear holocaust during Able Archer because

871
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 2: I was telling both sides the right thing. And that's

872
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:54,399
Speaker 2: another reason why you should really think about helping me, right,

873
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 2: And it was it was pretty good leverage, Like it

874
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 2: was a good story that he that he told. And

875
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 2: but what's fast from a historical standpoint is, like, you know,

876
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 2: a lot of historians relied on his account of Able Archer.

877
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: Information came from him of what the Russians, well.

878
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 2: Just you know, his his narrative of what was happening

879
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 2: at that time was was sort of an important part

880
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 2: of the historical record. But it's also you can now

881
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: understand the deep conflict of interest in like, of course

882
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 2: it behooves him to uh to bolster his own role

883
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 2: in the able Archer crisis, because now it's a reason

884
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 2: to help get his family out of out of Russia.

885
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 2: He can like put you know, he can tell foreign

886
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 2: leaders like, look, I helped save the world, now you

887
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 2: need to help me get my family.

888
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: Out, like it's a it might be an unreliable area, yeah,

889
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: sort of, yeah, exactly. If it was true, then it's

890
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 1: it was a great detriment to the easing of tensions

891
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: that you lost the like one of the only guys

892
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: in the room being like, guys, nobody's fucking fighting, You're good,

893
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: everybody's okay.

894
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 2: Yeah.

895
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: Unfortunately he had to go to Britain to chill. So

896
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: in the years since after he went to talk to Reagan,

897
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: Olig had been in hiding and he has lived in

898
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: safe houses and had to keep watch for Russian assassination

899
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: at tempts ever since. But there is one bright spot though.

900
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety one, when the Russian government was in turmoil,

901
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: new leadership stepped in and looking to make amends with

902
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,399
Speaker 1: the western world, they finally let Laila and the girls go.

903
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: They reunited with Oleg that September. Three months after Oleg

904
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,800
Speaker 1: and his family got back together, the Soviet Union collapsed.

905
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: So in the end, tickle tickle one. Yeah, anyway, that's

906
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: our story. Ed, thank you so much for being a

907
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: part of it, man, and thanks for so many interesting

908
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 1: details of it. I didn't know that the conversation with

909
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,839
Speaker 1: Reagan was because a big part of it was.

910
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 2: It was part of the color of that conversation.

911
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. I want to talk about snap Fu

912
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:05,839
Speaker 1: for a second too, if you don't mind.

913
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 2: So. Season one is the story of Able Archer eighty three,

914
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 2: which was an event in nineteen eighty three. It was

915
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 2: the height of the Cold War, and there was so

916
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 2: much tension between the United States or NATO and the

917
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 2: Soviet Union that this Able Archer exercise, which by any

918
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 2: other measure was just a normal military exercise, was suddenly

919
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 2: getting interpreted by the Soviets as possible staging for a

920
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 2: real nuclear attack, and basically there was this kind of

921
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:45,720
Speaker 2: like Domino reciprocating spiral of fear and outrage and misunderstandings

922
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 2: and miscommunications.

923
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, listeners should go to it because it gives such

924
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 1: rich context while also being quite funny and entertaining and

925
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: fucking scary.

926
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 2: It's such a cool story. Thank you for having me

927
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 2: on to talk about this awesome man.

928
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: Well, listen. I can't wait to hear your band play

929
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:03,839
Speaker 1: and to watch you in whatever awesome movie or show

930
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 1: you steal next, and I can't wait to listen to

931
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: more snafu Okay. Season two is out now and season

932
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 1: three is coming soon. Right, I appreciate you coming in, brother,

933
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.

934
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: Thank you Arturo. You're so awesome at what you do.

935
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: Keep doing it.

936
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot.

937
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: Thank you so much later, brother. Bye. Brady's Escapes is

938
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio and Film Nation Entertainment in association

939
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: with Gilded Audio. Our executive producers from me Ar Turo

940
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,320
Speaker 1: Castro Alyssa Martino and Milan Papelka from Film Nation Entertainment,

941
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,720
Speaker 1: Andrew Chug and Witning Donaldson from Gilded Audio, and Dylan

942
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 1: Fagan from iHeartRadio. The show is produced and edited by

943
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: Carl Nellis and Ben Chubb, who are also, respectively, our

944
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: research overlord and music overlord. Our associate producer is Tory Smith,

945
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 1: who's our other overlord. Nick Dooley is our technical director.

946
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: Additional editing by Whitney Donaldson. Special thanks to Alison Cohen,

947
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:59,720
Speaker 1: Dan Welsh, Ben Riizek, Sarah Joyner, Nicki Stein, Olivia Canny

948
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 1: and Kelsey. All Right, Hey, thank you so much for listening,

949
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: and if you're enjoying the show, please drop a rating

950
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 1: or review. My mom will call you each personally and

951
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:13,879
Speaker 1: thank you, and we'll see you all next week