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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We are joined as always with our super

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Speaker 1: producer Paul Mission controlled decades. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. It's your favorite or some of

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Speaker 1: your favorite. Quentin Quarantino's back again today. We are exploring

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Speaker 1: a very strange case. Let's start with the idea of

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Speaker 1: missionary work. You've heard the phrase before, right It's it's

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Speaker 1: sometimes associated with these acts that encapsulate the utmost of altruism.

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Speaker 1: And then sometimes there are cases that appear to be

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Speaker 1: self serving, and some cases, like the tragic case of

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Speaker 1: John Chow in North Centinel Island, seemed to be inherently

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Speaker 1: misinformed with terrible, horrific consequences. But in the world of

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Speaker 1: missionary work, you may have also heard the story of

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Speaker 1: one renee Bach who founded the organization serving his children,

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Speaker 1: often abbreviated as s HC in Uganda, in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and nine. You maybe somewhat familiar with this last story

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Speaker 1: at a headline level, but if you're like most of us,

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Speaker 1: you have not heard the full extent of what happened here.

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Speaker 1: And that is why today we are exploring the strange,

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Speaker 1: tragic tale of Renee Box actions and the organization in Uganda,

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Speaker 1: as well as some of the larger themes this story

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Speaker 1: touches upon. And luckily we are not doing it alone,

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Speaker 1: are we know? Today we are joined by Regime eve Gala,

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Speaker 1: a prolific freelance journalist and photographer. He's been published in

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Speaker 1: multiple outlets. You've probably seen his work in The Guardian, Vice,

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Speaker 1: Reuters and much much more. He, along with his team

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Speaker 1: Halima Gekandhi and Malcolm Burnley. Uh, Regieve, spent a year

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Speaker 1: investigating this story. He interviewed over a hundred people, asking crucial,

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Speaker 1: profound questions about the problems that arise when someone becomes

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Speaker 1: what could be called a white savior. So, Regiev, first

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Speaker 1: things first, Uh, welcome to the show and can you

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Speaker 1: please briefly describe the story that's going on here of SHC. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me on. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I I got to Uganda last January, and a

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Speaker 1: few days after I got there, I heard about this

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Speaker 1: case of an American woman who had pretended to be

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Speaker 1: a doctor and who is now being accused of killing

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Speaker 1: hundreds of children. And a few days later a an

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Speaker 1: activist group called No Wait's Saviors helped file a court

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Speaker 1: case against her in Uganda's High Court, And so I

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Speaker 1: went along with them, and I met a few of

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Speaker 1: the people that had signed affidavits against Renee, and they

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Speaker 1: kind of set me off on this journey that took

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Speaker 1: us the next year to really get to the bottom

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Speaker 1: of this whole story and figure out what was really

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Speaker 1: going on with all these allegations. So I think some

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Speaker 1: of the initial questions here uh are going to be

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Speaker 1: concerning your process, which may be a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a dryway to start. So in this, in this story,

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Speaker 1: in the missionary, which one thing that you all have

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Speaker 1: done that's pretty captivating to me is that you're it's

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Speaker 1: a collaborative work of journalism, uh, and it's still I

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Speaker 1: can only imagine must must be a huge undertaking. What

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Speaker 1: what led you and your colleagues Halima and Malcolm to

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Speaker 1: take this approach to narrative, to storytelling an investigation. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: pretty quickly when we got into the story, we realized

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Speaker 1: it was going to be a lot up to interpretation. Um.

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Speaker 1: I mean this was such a polarizing case. I mean

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Speaker 1: we had one group on one hand that literally called

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Speaker 1: itself No White Saviors, and then we have the accused

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Speaker 1: Renee on the other, and both were telling widely different stories. Um.

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Speaker 1: And when we got into it the like actual documentation,

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Speaker 1: the evidence was kind of sparse, and so what we

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Speaker 1: had to deal with mostly was all these competing narratives

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Speaker 1: and trying to stitch them together. And it just made

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Speaker 1: the most sense. Instead of one person kind of trying

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Speaker 1: to make sense of all these things, why don't we

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Speaker 1: kind of bring all those perspectives to the show. And

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Speaker 1: so the three of us all come with our own

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Speaker 1: personal experiences and our own take on just how this

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Speaker 1: case unfolded and who's to blame and what really happened,

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Speaker 1: what really went wrong, And instead of just picking one

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Speaker 1: of those, we kind of tussled with each other through

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Speaker 1: the show and try to get those opinions out there.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting. It's almost like a Rashima type story where

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Speaker 1: there's just like an unreliable narrator, you kind of have to,

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Speaker 1: as the listener, make up your own mind as to

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Speaker 1: what really happened. For example, even this woman in question,

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Speaker 1: um ms bach Uh, she wrote a lot of these

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Speaker 1: blogs where she wrote about herself in the first person

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Speaker 1: as though she were the one, you know, doing the

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Speaker 1: blood transfusions on these malnourished children and and you know,

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Speaker 1: putting in I v s. And obviously a big part

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Speaker 1: of the story and the and the hubbub here is

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Speaker 1: that she has no medical experience, but she wrote about

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Speaker 1: it from the first person and later walked that back

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Speaker 1: and was like, oh, maybe it was just being a

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Speaker 1: little self aggrandizing and chose to write it in that,

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Speaker 1: you know form, but it really was others. There were

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Speaker 1: always nurses around that were, you know, counseling me and

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Speaker 1: telling me what to do. But even that part, it's

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Speaker 1: like how do you who do you believe? And it's

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Speaker 1: just it's fascinating that level the psychology of it. And

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Speaker 1: I was aware of White Savior as a movie trope

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Speaker 1: more than anything, where it's like the idea of like

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Speaker 1: dances with wolves or the white guy comes in and

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Speaker 1: saves all the you know, the Native Americans from themselves

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Speaker 1: or whatever. That is where I kind of heard about this.

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Speaker 1: So the idea that as like a genuine psychological complex,

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Speaker 1: I guess uh is very fascinating. I mean you speak

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Speaker 1: a little bit about that, um and how you kind

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Speaker 1: of started digging deeper into this idea of this almost

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Speaker 1: being a pathological you know, issue with with certain people. UM. Well,

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Speaker 1: I would just say on that end, we actually didn't

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Speaker 1: want to go down the pathological route for a very

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Speaker 1: specific reason, uh, in that because there was a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of evidence. We didn't want to start like armchair

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Speaker 1: diagnosing people, and we didn't want to kind of chalk

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Speaker 1: this up to a singular like mental issue or anything

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Speaker 1: like that, because what we saw and what we knew

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Speaker 1: from our years of reporting out there was just that

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Speaker 1: this was a systematic issue as much as it was

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Speaker 1: about like one really extraordinary case. So we really did

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Speaker 1: try to push all the pathological stuff inside, even though

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Speaker 1: there is incredible scholarship about it. There's something called um

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Speaker 1: pathological altruism where you go out of your way to

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Speaker 1: help even though you know it's hurting um, the people

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Speaker 1: you're trying to help are even hurting yourself, And that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff is incredible, but um we were really

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Speaker 1: trying to try to stay on the track of understanding

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Speaker 1: this bigger system, because when you look at Renee's story,

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Speaker 1: the first thing you realize is that there's this whole

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Speaker 1: evangelical world in America that a lot of people, unless

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Speaker 1: you're in it, like you don't see it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: just like a quick example of that. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: lawyer that she's got on the case is the same

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Speaker 1: lawyer that represented Terry Shabo's parents, And that was incredible

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Speaker 1: to me until I realized that there's all these connections

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Speaker 1: in this evangelical world and like pretty much any story

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Speaker 1: you pick up, you're gonna kind of pull on all

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Speaker 1: these other threads. I think that's an awesome um point.

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Speaker 1: I'm using awesome in the in the term that it

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Speaker 1: means if you look up the word in the dictionary,

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Speaker 1: we only speak in biblical fantastic. This this is something

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to lose because I think

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Speaker 1: for many people, unless you have traveled maybe outside of

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Speaker 1: the US, you you may not, or unless you are

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Speaker 1: yourself with practicing evangelical or in the missionary community, you're right.

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Speaker 1: This is one of those things that is sort of

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Speaker 1: an an invisible culture because it's so insular, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's the word that gets used accurately quite often here.

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Speaker 1: One thing that struck me in in this story is

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Speaker 1: that it is uh, it is considered completely legitimate right

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Speaker 1: to be spiritually called to something, rather than perhaps secularly

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Speaker 1: qualified to do that thing. And with this, when we

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Speaker 1: were looking at it was when I was digging into UH,

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Speaker 1: some of the research here, I came up with a

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Speaker 1: couple of immediate questions that when to present to our audience, UM,

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Speaker 1: instead of me running through them, I think you would

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Speaker 1: be much better suited to answer these are jeeves. So

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Speaker 1: so the big accusations, right, the big rumors in Jinja

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Speaker 1: were that this person was making the story about themselves, right,

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Speaker 1: and that this person was doing um, doing the kind

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Speaker 1: of medical operations or the kind of medical procedures that

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Speaker 1: would require uh formal training. Is that correct? And could

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Speaker 1: you when you're telling us about that, could you tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about, um, how much of that

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Speaker 1: was rumor how much of that was true? And uh,

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Speaker 1: while I'm just laundry listing questions, I'm so sorry to

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Speaker 1: do this, but I'm so curious about this uh, could

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Speaker 1: you also tell us, um, how people are able to

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Speaker 1: practice medical procedures in this country without licensing or without training. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so let me take the last one first then, um, So,

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Speaker 1: Uganda does have a pretty extensive system of laws to

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Speaker 1: keep uh NGOs in check and make sure that people

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Speaker 1: that are qualified are the ones providing the services. But

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it's also an enforcement

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Speaker 1: issue and these uh these places where a lot of

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Speaker 1: these NGOs are based are not the most well resourced,

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Speaker 1: and so it's pretty easy to slip through the cracks. Um.

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Speaker 1: I mean when we started the story, the things I

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Speaker 1: was hearing made me, it made me feel like there

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Speaker 1: was this this conspiracy that somehow the government or these

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Speaker 1: big NGO groups had all conspired to allow this to

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Speaker 1: happen something like that. But when it came down to

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Speaker 1: it was kind of like a more pedestrian answer, like

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Speaker 1: you've got one guy in charge of the whole district

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Speaker 1: with nine registered NGOs, what can you really do? And

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Speaker 1: so it's it's pretty easy to slip onto the radar there.

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Speaker 1: And it's one of those things that up until recently,

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Speaker 1: it was pretty sensitive to to talk about openly when

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Speaker 1: a lot of the government budget is coming from foreign NGOs.

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Speaker 1: That's not something you want to scare away. But the

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Speaker 1: tide has changed now and Yugandan government is taking a

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Speaker 1: lot of steps to kind of cull a lot of

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Speaker 1: these paper NGOs and make sure that everyone has their

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Speaker 1: documentation and make sure everyone's doing everything above board. And

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be a slow process, but um, you know,

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Speaker 1: things are changing there. As far as the other stuff,

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Speaker 1: I mean, when I came in, the allegations were out

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Speaker 1: of the world. Um let me tell you, like everything

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Speaker 1: I was told about Renee was an image of this

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Speaker 1: like megalomaniac, this crazy person. It was kind of like

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Speaker 1: apocalypse Now. I felt like Martin Sheen going up the

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Speaker 1: river up to meet Colonel Kurts and just reading his files,

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Speaker 1: and this like image loomed larger and larger in my

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Speaker 1: mind every day. And when I read her blogs, you

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Speaker 1: can see this trajectory where like two nine, she's like

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Speaker 1: nineteen years old. She gets to Uganda, and she's got

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Speaker 1: all this ambition and this good intention to do something

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Speaker 1: for what she sees as a very vulnerable, needy place.

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Speaker 1: And it starts off well enough. I mean, she gets

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Speaker 1: all these kids to her house to feed them. Launch

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Speaker 1: every day, like a thousand kids are lining up with

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Speaker 1: bowls and they get beans and rice. Um. And it

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Speaker 1: was great for a while. Um, she was like just

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Speaker 1: a popular woman in the community. And then she starts

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Speaker 1: noticing all these mothers bringing her children that are just

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Speaker 1: very sick. There's nowhere else to take them, or at

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Speaker 1: least that's what she thinks. Um. She sees the government hospitals,

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Speaker 1: she sees how longer staff they are, and she says, well,

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Speaker 1: then let me try to jump in and help out.

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Speaker 1: And it's a mission creep where no one tells you know,

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Speaker 1: and there's not this really robust system of regulations to

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Speaker 1: keep you from overstepping your bounds. And one day you're like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, trying to place an IVY line. And

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Speaker 1: then a few years down the road you have an

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Speaker 1: entire i CU built into your house. And in a

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Speaker 1: culture of missionaries, especially in Ginger, where you're rewarded for

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Speaker 1: being ambitious, for taking all this extra responsibility, for going

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Speaker 1: above and beyond and really putting others before yourself, or

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Speaker 1: making it seem like that it was almost inevitable, like

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Speaker 1: that's something like this could happen and when I asked

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Speaker 1: a Ugandan NGEO forum person. Her name is Margaret. She

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Speaker 1: works at the NGEO Forum in Ginja and she oversees

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Speaker 1: all the NGOs there. Uh. And when I asked her

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Speaker 1: about this whole case and like kind of ran her

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Speaker 1: through the allegations. I was like, does this surprise you?

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Speaker 1: And she says absolutely not, Like there's probably happening again

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Speaker 1: somewhere out here, like we just can't know and there's

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Speaker 1: so much going on, which yeah, I guess goes back

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Speaker 1: to the whole thing about this being a systematic issue.

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Speaker 1: More than anything else, I wanna I want to speak

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Speaker 1: up just briefly for the missionaries here. It's just in

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Speaker 1: general because I did. I grew up in in a

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Speaker 1: Christian church for for a long time and you know,

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Speaker 1: gone a bit of a different way a while ago

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Speaker 1: and up to this point. But for for for a

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Speaker 1: time there the way at least I was exposed to

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Speaker 1: missionary work. It was truly an altruistic thing where a

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Speaker 1: community somewhere across the world can send their funds, their

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Speaker 1: money is that they collect generally on Sundays when I

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Speaker 1: was a part of it, and then you know, send

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Speaker 1: it somewhere else so that help can be provided, whether

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Speaker 1: it's in building infrastructure or maybe even feeding somebody. UM.

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Speaker 1: I can totally see how maybe that the underlying reasoning

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Speaker 1: to do something like that, even if it is to

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Speaker 1: spread perhaps your religion, if the underlying reason is to

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Speaker 1: help others, it is a tremendously helpful and wonderful thing,

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Speaker 1: or at least you know on paper, right. I can

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Speaker 1: totally also see how if you're gonna create a non

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Speaker 1: governmental organization and take it to the links. I guess

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Speaker 1: perhaps that Renee ended up taking her organization, I can

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Speaker 1: see how it could become problematic. Um. And just as

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Speaker 1: everything you've said there, g um, I I what did

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Speaker 1: you uncover about what was actually happening in those facilities

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Speaker 1: that she was running? Was it her? Was it a

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Speaker 1: team of people that were attempting to perform things like

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Speaker 1: giving a child an ivy or an injection of some

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Speaker 1: medication or another, or was it just her? I mean,

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Speaker 1: so that's kind of where this whole case got gets

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Speaker 1: tricky because at the end of the day, we don't

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Speaker 1: have access to medical documents from it. We don't have

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Speaker 1: access to a lot of the evidence that would be

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Speaker 1: required to say one way or another what happened. So

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Speaker 1: what we did was we picked a few cases that

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Speaker 1: seemed to really tell a story about this NGO and

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Speaker 1: really dove deep on those. One of the cases was

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Speaker 1: a girl named Patricia who came into the facility. She

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Speaker 1: was an infant and her body was swollen. She was

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Speaker 1: malnourished and had a lot of other complications going on,

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Speaker 1: and when she was brought to Serving His Children, it

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Speaker 1: was determined that she needed a blood transfusion. A doctor

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Speaker 1: over the phone told Renee that this girl needed a

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Speaker 1: blood transfusion, and so Renee and one of the nurses

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Speaker 1: there went out and got blood for Patricia. When it

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Speaker 1: came back, though, and when it was put into Patricia

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Speaker 1: and the transfusion began, they realized that the blood was

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Speaker 1: mismatched and Patricia started swelling up, and so at that

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Speaker 1: point an American nurse was called in. The nurse made

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Speaker 1: the call to send the child to a private hospital

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Speaker 1: in Kampala, the capital of Uganda, and Patricia stayed there

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Speaker 1: for a week until she stabilized. At that point, she

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Speaker 1: was brought back to Serving his Children and developed a

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Speaker 1: flesh eating bacteria on her face that was just growing

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Speaker 1: and growing and almost killed her. And then it came

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Speaker 1: out that the hospital in Kampala had actually diagnosed the

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Speaker 1: fly scheeting bacteria, and so then the question became why

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Speaker 1: was Patricia discharged and why did she go back to

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Speaker 1: this unlicensed facility without proper medical professionals to take care

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Speaker 1: of these really highly sensitive cases. And it's really a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff that we found was kind of like that,

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Speaker 1: where was just this gradual accumulation of mistakes of someone

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Speaker 1: who did not have the expertise needed to manage a

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Speaker 1: situation stepping in to do so, and that led to

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Speaker 1: pretty horrifying consequences. And to this day Patricia lives with

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Speaker 1: a scar on her face. And there there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of complications that can go along with this kind

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Speaker 1: of malnourish When I was reading a piece on NPR

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Speaker 1: about and oftentimes they're so sensitive where you are. Oftentimes

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Speaker 1: they're better left alone than trying to intervene so rapidly,

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Speaker 1: because you can absolutely cause a heart attack or any

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Speaker 1: other number of side effects. I guess from just how

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Speaker 1: sensitive and fragile their bodies have become, not to mention

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Speaker 1: many are living with hiv um other conditions that just

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Speaker 1: exacerbate the whole thing. Uh, And so that's particularly I

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Speaker 1: think why this is extra disturbing, the thought of someone

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Speaker 1: with no medical training thinking they can just go in

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Speaker 1: and do all this stuff. Yeah, And I think like

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Speaker 1: this is like a kind of a really simple test

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Speaker 1: that a lot of people bring up with this case

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Speaker 1: and a lot of mission work abroad, Like just if

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't do it in your own neighborhood, would you

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Speaker 1: be able to do it abroad? A lot of the

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Speaker 1: work that these volunteers are doing, um, these volunteer humanitarians

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Speaker 1: or missionaries are doing there there kind of organizing pills

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Speaker 1: and a pharmacy, or they're building walls and an orphanage,

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Speaker 1: or they're playing with kids. I mean, they're not highly

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Speaker 1: technical things, and they're not sending highly technically qualified people.

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Speaker 1: And so the question then becomes, wouldn't it benefit the

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Speaker 1: community there to just hire locals, Like, wouldn't it make

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Speaker 1: more sense to build up the local capacity instead of

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Speaker 1: sending kids from America out there? And so at that

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Speaker 1: point you start to see these mission trips less concerned

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Speaker 1: about the impact that they're making on the grounds versus

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Speaker 1: what they're doing for the people actually going abroad. They're

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Speaker 1: selling you an experience to go reconnect with your faith

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Speaker 1: and put your faith into action. And I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of people really have great experiences and have a

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Speaker 1: different outlook on life after that. UM, and when they're

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Speaker 1: managed well, they can be really great experiences on both

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Speaker 1: sides of it. Unfortunately, when the profit motive comes in

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Speaker 1: and when really highly technical issues start to crop up

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Speaker 1: in these things, that's when we need to be careful

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Speaker 1: about how to proceed. You know, I agree with that point.

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Speaker 1: We've done some previous work on in geos. I think

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Speaker 1: I think for many people it's easy to hear the

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Speaker 1: phrase in GEO, especially here in the West, and think, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, like captain planet the environment, helping people that

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Speaker 1: kuy this stuff right, UM, But I profoundly appreciate you

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Speaker 1: bringing up some of the ways in which NGOs can

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Speaker 1: aid and a bet uh systemic and equality in these

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Speaker 1: in these situations. One one great example would be UH

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Speaker 1: clothing drives right, donate clothing to a place and then

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Speaker 1: the way that that is dispersed or even sold to

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Speaker 1: people in another country. UH is a is a death

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Speaker 1: knell for the local textile industry. Do you UM find

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Speaker 1: in in at least this situation here, do you feel

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Speaker 1: like it would be fair to say that uh serving

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Speaker 1: his children at least or at least renee box original

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Speaker 1: work when she was just feeding the kids? Would would

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Speaker 1: you be Do you think it's fair to say that

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Speaker 1: that was a net benefit and that this accumulation of

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Speaker 1: mistakes are like did it start I guess my direct

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Speaker 1: question is regive. Did it start off already hurting more

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Speaker 1: than it was helping? Speaking specifically about a feeding program,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of different opinions in that

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Speaker 1: whole world about whether that actually does good for a community,

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Speaker 1: or whether it fosters sort of dependency without building anything

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Speaker 1: there um kind of the whole like give a man

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Speaker 1: a fish argument. It's easy to see that what she

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Speaker 1: was doing at that point in her career was far

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Speaker 1: less dangerous than what she ended up doing. I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people go over there with this grand

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Speaker 1: ambition of fixing these huge problems, and I think we

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Speaker 1: all remember when we were ny and like I thought,

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Speaker 1: we could fix a lot of it. But the difference

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Speaker 1: is we didn't have money or a structure to do

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Speaker 1: it with. And when you are giving those things and

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Speaker 1: pretty much carte blanche in a foreign country, things can

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Speaker 1: go off the rails um and so that's when oversight

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Speaker 1: kind of comes into play. I don't want to say

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Speaker 1: things started off great or anything like that, because like,

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I think there's something

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Speaker 1: to be said for the mentality that you have when

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Speaker 1: you come in, and the mentality that a lot of

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Speaker 1: these people have is one of pride and believing that

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Speaker 1: you can accomplish more than you are able to. And

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Speaker 1: like there's research um that we cited in the show.

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Speaker 1: A professor in Honduras it's spent a long time working

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Speaker 1: with mission groups and trying to understand the impact that

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Speaker 1: the short term missions have on local communities, and what

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Speaker 1: he saw was that people that are less qualified tend

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Speaker 1: to have more impactful personal experiences than people who were qualified,

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Speaker 1: because if you knew what was going on, you knew

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Speaker 1: you weren't helping at all, and you knew it was

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Speaker 1: going to be incredibly difficult to change the condition of

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Speaker 1: people's lives. But if you didn't know what you were

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Speaker 1: talking about, then you thought you were doing the Lord's

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Speaker 1: work out there, sort of a Dunning Krueger, Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the one or maybe delusions of grandeur. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's certainly some folks in the discussion around this that

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Speaker 1: I've heard refer to this woman as being arrogant or like,

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Speaker 1: you know, who does she think she is to believe

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Speaker 1: that she can do these things that she clearly isn't

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Speaker 1: qualified to do? And obviously the end result was loss

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Speaker 1: of life. And whether or not that bounces out with

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Speaker 1: any positive impact that that she may have done, our

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Speaker 1: best intentions gone wrong or what have you, you still

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Speaker 1: can't deny that there's some kind of blind I don't know,

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Speaker 1: pride or or self delusion involved and just charging into

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Speaker 1: this kind of situation headlong without maybe a proper plan

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Speaker 1: to do it correctly. A couple of years ago, when

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Speaker 1: I was reporting in South Sudan, I was covering what

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Speaker 1: ended up being a government assault on a town in

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Speaker 1: northern South Sudan. A number of soldiers went and massacred

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Speaker 1: a an ethnic community that they had a longstanding, um

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Speaker 1: it's a bad relationship with See when I got there,

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Speaker 1: this whole town was it was a ghost town, and

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Speaker 1: there were tens of thousands of people that had taken

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Speaker 1: refuge at the U N camp or at the Red

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Speaker 1: cross facility or at the Catholic compound in the middle

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Speaker 1: of town. And when I went to the Catholic compound,

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Speaker 1: I found an Indian nun there who had been in

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Speaker 1: South Sudana for thirty years, and she took me in

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Speaker 1: and for weeks I was by her side as she

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Speaker 1: handled the fallout of this horrific attack in her town.

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Speaker 1: And for the first time I felt like I had

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Speaker 1: seen what a missionary, or really anyone was capable of

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Speaker 1: doing when they had their head in the right place,

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Speaker 1: in their heart in the right place. I mean, she

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Speaker 1: built schools, hospitals, clinics. She was a teacher at the

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Speaker 1: college she was teaching nurses. UM. She had built the

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Speaker 1: biggest children's hospital in the in the in that state.

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Speaker 1: And from the outside she was just this unimpeachable figure

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Speaker 1: of righteousness. And I don't use that word lightly or sarcastically.

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Speaker 1: I mean she was just like she was doing the

433
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: thing um and it made me want to go following

434
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: her footsteps. And it was just like a very captivating,

435
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 1: inspiring thing to see. But every night, when we would

436
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 1: kind of go back to her place and eat dinner,

437
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 1: she would confess and say that she didn't know what

438
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 1: her purpose was. She didn't feel like she was making

439
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: any impact. Um, she didn't know where all of this led.

440
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: But the next morning she would be up before I

441
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: was making breakfast and getting out to hit the road

442
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 1: and get to work. And I think what I saw

443
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,159
Speaker 1: there was that it's a wonderful thing to have a

444
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: good heart, a wonderful thing to have good intentions about something.

445
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: But what makes doing the right thing difficult is that

446
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:55,719
Speaker 1: you never know if you are doing the right thing.

447
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: And the only way to guard against crossing that line

448
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 1: is to have humility and self doubt. And I found

449
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: that the people who are often doing the right thing

450
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 1: in this world are also tearing themselves to pieces trying

451
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: to answer the question of if they are doing the

452
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 1: right thing. That's a really beautiful way of looking at it,

453
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: and it's true. I mean, it is kind of all

454
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: constant moral quandary and just I always tell like my daughter,

455
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: you know, self awareness is like one of the most

456
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: important skills, I guess, or traits that you can have,

457
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: because without that, you're kind of just a drift. You know,

458
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: you can't really see yourself or how other people see you,

459
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: or how will you even know how can you like

460
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: self correct or of course correct if you get you know,

461
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: on the wrong path. So that's in this incredible story,

462
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: and we'll return to explore the story of missionary in

463
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 1: further depth after a word from our sponsor and we're back.

464
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: So Serving his Children was found into thousand nine in

465
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: the States and then was made official in Uganda in

466
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: what it started out as was an outreach and feeding

467
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: program UM. So Renee got a house in this pretty

468
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: rough neighborhood outside Ginja in Uganda, which is pretty popular

469
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: tourist town. UM a lot of a lot of expats

470
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: out there doing like rafting and camping and four wheeling

471
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: and stuff. And it's also become this kind of missionary mecca.

472
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: UM that's really popular because it's an easy place to

473
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: live whether there's great all year round and just really

474
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 1: friendly to outsiders. So Renee set up shop there in

475
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 1: uh in this rough neighborhood called Ms. Sessa. She rented

476
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: a house there and twice a week she would start

477
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: feeding the kids beans and rice. And then she noticed

478
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: all these other problems underneath that where these mothers were

479
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: coming to her with really sick children that needed help,

480
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 1: and so she started taking on some of these kids

481
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: and letting them to stay over at the house, letting

482
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: them get healthy, and kind of keeping a close eye

483
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 1: on them. And slowly that led into a more active

484
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: role of getting kids to hospitals, um, getting them blood, medicine,

485
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: getting them whatever they needed. And then around it became

486
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: a more in house thing where they were trying to

487
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: do impatient procedures and really focus on this issue of malnutrition.

488
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: But the thing is, when you're malnourished, you also pick

489
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: up a load of other diseases, and so you have

490
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: all these severe complications and you need to have the

491
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: highest training and qualifications to manage these really sensitive kids.

492
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: And at that point, like it's difficult to say when

493
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: things went off the rails, but like at that point

494
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: you can say, like I think we're we're awful now.

495
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: Um so, uh, that's a crucial part in the timeline though,

496
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: as you like that that part of that area twenty eleven.

497
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: I believe that's when we see the involvement of one

498
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: Jacqueline Kramlich. Is that correct, Jackie raml Yeah, yeah, Jackie

499
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: Kramlike Jackie Kramlick is uh plays a pivotal part I

500
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: guess in the way that the US and the West

501
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: sees the narrative unfold. Could could you tell us a

502
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: little bit about Kramlick's background and then how that led

503
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: to Kelsey Nielsen? And you mentioned this earlier, and I'm

504
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: sure it's an organization or it's at least a series

505
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: of terms that some of our fellow listeners clocked no

506
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: white saviors. So how how does Kramlake's involvement lead to

507
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: Kelsey lead to this? I gotta tell you, um, our

508
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: podcast team group chat is the image of Charlie in

509
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: the mail room with all the red strings pointing at

510
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: different photos and everything. And I've never been able to

511
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: put that in coherent words, and it's been yeah, it's

512
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: so I'll give it a shot here. Um. But Jackie

513
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: Cram got her nursing degree in America and was qualified

514
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: to be a nurse. But when she got to Uganda,

515
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: renee's organization told her that she did not need to

516
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: register for a medical license in Uganda. So the whole

517
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: time Jackie was there, she was operating without a nursing

518
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: license in Uganda. Nevertheless, her expertise was rarely called on,

519
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: and there's a few anecdotes that she tells where there

520
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: would be a really sick kid and Renee would be

521
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: like scrambling to figure out what was going wrong, and

522
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: instead of asking Jackie what was going on, she would

523
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: call a friend in America to google it or something

524
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: like that. And it's that kind of unclear chain of

525
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: command or that lack of delegation that was kind of

526
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: a first red flag for Jackie. But what really did

527
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: it for Jackie was that case of Patricia where she

528
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: saw over and over again all these mistakes kind of

529
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: build up and lead to this child be scarred for

530
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: life for what Jackie as was no good reason, like

531
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: just this child should not have been scarred at all.

532
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: Shortly after Patricia was discharged from serving as children, Jackie

533
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: resigned and I went to go work with another organization

534
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: in Ginger. Around this time, a woman named Kelsey Nielsen,

535
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: who is an American from Philadelphia came to Ginger to

536
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: start her own NGO for Family Reunification, which I guess

537
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: this is the other this is the red string pointing outwards.

538
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: But in Ginger there's a whole industry of child adoptions

539
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: that is pretty corrupt, and I mean, in the most

540
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: cynical phrasing you can pay fifty grand and get a

541
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: lawyer to prove it not an adoption for a kid,

542
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: and then you are a brand new parent. Uh. And

543
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: a lot of the families that go through this process

544
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: don't know necessarily what they're getting into. They think it's

545
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: just like for a year or two and then the

546
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: child will come back. But then they realized that they

547
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: signed away. There there their son or daughter for forever.

548
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: So it's a really tragic thing. And what Kelsey's organization

549
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: tried to do was provide these families with resources to

550
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: be able to keep their families together rather than um

551
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: being offered money and having these kids leave. And at

552
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: that time, Renee and a few other missionaries were really

553
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: like just top of their game. They were the mother

554
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: Theresas of Ginger. They were just they set the standard

555
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: for what a missionary was, for how much self sacrifice,

556
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: like the work entails, and Kelsey really looked up to them.

557
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: But at some point, all these contradictions in Ginger of

558
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: people saying that they were doing good for the community

559
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: but then the community not getting any better, they kind

560
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: of came to ahead and Kelsey decided she needed to

561
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: speak out, so she teamed up with a former employee

562
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: of hers, a Yugandan social worker named Olivia Alasso, and

563
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: the two of them created an organization called No White Saviors,

564
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: which is famous for its Instagram page. It's fiery Instagram

565
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: page UM, which has a couple hundred thousand followers now.

566
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: When I met them, it was like ten fifteen thousand UM,

567
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: so it has been incredible to see how much traction

568
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: they've gotten UM over the last year. There's another Instagram

569
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: page called Barbie Savior, which, if you've seen it, is

570
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: a collection of photos of Barbie Doll dressed up as

571
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: a volunteer tourist, a missionary kind of trapesing around Africa

572
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: finding herself and following her calling. And it's just like

573
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: really sarcastic thing where she's picking up black babies and

574
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: being like, oh my God, like I'm in love at

575
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: this place, and she gets like a tattoo of Africa

576
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: on her chest and everything. And that account was actually

577
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: started by Jackie Kramlick. Part of the impetus for this account,

578
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: which has a hundred fifty thousand followers now, was Renee,

579
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: and Jackie says that one of the first photos they

580
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: did of Barbie getting on a plane and waving goodbye

581
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: to her family is a replica of the photo that

582
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: Renee put up on her blog of the same thing.

583
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: And so that was kind of our window into seeing

584
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 1: this Ginger community as almost just like high school drama.

585
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: And I don't want to minimize the trauma of the

586
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: victims in this whole situation by saying, oh, it's just

587
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: like a mean girls fight, but I mean, there's a

588
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: big part of the story that is just as pressure

589
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: cooker of a town with a bunch of young missionaries

590
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 1: that are all trying to come all trying to save

591
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 1: the world, and they're at each other's throats the whole time.

592
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because Kelsey looked at the superstars, the

593
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 1: rock stars of Ginger, like Katie Davis and Renee back

594
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: as the mean girls of Ginger, that they were these

595
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: popular girls that everyone aspired to be and he had

596
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: to be smart and pretty to get into their group.

597
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: But when we're he talks about how the Ginger community

598
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: turned on her and tried to demolish her entire career

599
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: and ruin her reputation. She calls Kelsey and them the

600
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,399
Speaker 1: mean girls. Uh, And so it kind of gets into

601
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: this back and forth where I mean, we got lost

602
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: in it. Um, there's all these rumors floating around, and

603
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: at some point we just have to divorce ourselves and

604
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 1: get back to the real story, which are the families

605
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 1: that went through Serving His Children. Um, but it gave

606
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: us a huge insight into what happens when you go

607
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: to church on Sunday, put money in the basket and

608
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: it goes off to ginger and uh, we're all kind

609
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: of gossiping at the cafe there, paying for latte's, uh,

610
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: with your aunt's money. And with that, we're going to

611
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: take a quick break and hear a word from our

612
00:35:52,520 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: sponsor and we're back. Let's jump to the real impact,

613
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: because there, you guys did some some reporting on the

614
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: actual quantitative numbers of people who you know, went through

615
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: the system there went you know, lived there for a

616
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: while or retreated there, who were either injured or did

617
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: not make it. Can you talk to us a little

618
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 1: bit about the the actual impact that was had on

619
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: far too many people there. Okay, So Serving his Children's

620
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: inpatient program started in and in the Yugandan government stepped

621
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: into shut Serving His Children down because they did not

622
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: have a medical license. The one that they had had expired.

623
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: So if you look the numbers that Serving his Children provides,

624
00:36:52,760 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: between hundred and five children passed away while thirty five

625
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: children went home happy and healthy. And you can look

626
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: at those numbers and read them in a way that says,

627
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I mean they got a four mortality rate.

628
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: That's like not bad considering that the government standard is

629
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 1: like they were doing better than the best government hospitals.

630
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: But then you gotta remember these are serving his children's

631
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: own numbers and not corroborated elsewhere. And at the end

632
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: of the day, for four of the five years of

633
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 1: those statistics, Serving his Children was an unlicensed medical facility.

634
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: It was an illegal facility in Uganda. At that point,

635
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: you have to ask yourself, like, is one child's death

636
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 1: at a facility like this too many? And that's I guess,

637
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: like what when it comes down to it, like that's

638
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: the interpretive part of this. And some people are willing

639
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: to swallow those numbers and say these kids would have

640
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: died no matter what, and at least someone's trying to

641
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: help them. And in fact, some Ugandan doctors we spoke

642
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: with told this that. But I think it takes education

643
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 1: and awareness of cases like this to make people think

644
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,720
Speaker 1: twice about following in these footsteps. One thing that David Gibbs,

645
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: who helps represent the family here in the States, the

646
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 1: Bach family here in the States, one thing he says

647
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: is that the campaign that No White Saviors is trying

648
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,800
Speaker 1: to put out against Renee, against all these other white

649
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: saviors and missionaries, what he's afraid of is it will

650
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: create a chilling effect on people that want to go

651
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 1: out into the world and help their fellow person. And

652
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: that's that's his fear that someone with good intentions, when

653
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 1: they see things like this, will be too afraid to

654
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: go out and help. But there's a part of me

655
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: that thinks maybe that is what's needed. Maybe, like that's

656
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: how you bring self awareness into the situation and bring

657
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,720
Speaker 1: humility into this situation is by holding to account people

658
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: that have taken advantage of certain situations or slip through

659
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: cracks and hurt more than they helped. And and that's

660
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: that's the point. You know, I'm perceived delinquent society. You know,

661
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 1: there are larger links everything. Nothing nothing is created in isolation, right,

662
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: Everything exists in context and is in some way and

663
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: end result of all the actions preceding it. And one

664
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: thing that I think is incredibly pertinent here in multiple

665
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: situations abroad and in the US today is the concept

666
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 1: of knowing one's rights that you hit upon excellently in

667
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: this case. Um. One thing that seems to be a

668
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: damning allegation is the lack of informed consent, which we've

669
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 1: talked about previously on this show. You will have of

670
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 1: I believe there were some folks on the s HC

671
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: side who said, well, paperwork aside, legal or illegal status aside.

672
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: We had people signed forms that acknowledged you know that

673
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: this is not that that very carefully acknowledged the type

674
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: of care it was, and it was not and these

675
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 1: forms that the like, I understand that some people were

676
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 1: illiterate when they were asked to sign these forms. Uh,

677
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: and that I further understand that these forms were in English,

678
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: which not necessarily everybody in the country or at that

679
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: center specifically could read. Is that correct? Yeah? So I

680
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: don't know the ins and outs have you got in law?

681
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: But from what the the the lawyer on the side

682
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 1: of the plaintiffs says, if a person who does not

683
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: speak English or read English signs one of these documents,

684
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: it has to be accompanied by a proof that it

685
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: was interpreted or translated for um, the signy and those

686
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: documents were not provided which have the which like threatened

687
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: to invalidate them. And a big part of this case

688
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:21,439
Speaker 1: is this question of whether Renee impersonated a doctor. There's

689
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: allegations that she wore a lab coat or stethoscope. I mean,

690
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: we have photos of her with the stethoscope, but not

691
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 1: the lab coat. And then there's allegations that like she

692
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: told people she was a doctor or did not refuse

693
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: when people called her a doctor. And I think that

694
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,879
Speaker 1: it is part of the same discussion where you go

695
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: into these rural communities that their engagements with white folks

696
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: for the most part are people with NGOs and people

697
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,919
Speaker 1: from these big aid groups. When you see a white

698
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: person walk into one of these communities and they're asking

699
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: for children with malnutrition and they're got a clipboard in

700
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: their hands and the stethoscope around their neck, you're gonna

701
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 1: think that they have some medical qualifications. Um And a

702
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: lot of the form employees kind of say this as well,

703
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: that it took them years before they realized Renee wasn't

704
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: a qualified doctor. I think a lot of what no

705
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 1: white saviors. Is getting at as well, is that white

706
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: people in these rare, in these um vulnerable places kinda

707
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: get away with a lot just by this color of

708
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: their skin, and like their privilege means so much more

709
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: in these places than it does even in America. Even

710
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: I could like walk into one of these places and

711
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 1: with an American accent and just kind of people would

712
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: respect me and like give me a certain amount of

713
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: respect and trust that is not afforded to Ugandans. And

714
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: so part of it is people not knowing their rights,

715
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 1: and part of it is outsiders not fully aware of

716
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: the privilege that they carry into these community. That's really

717
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: something I mean, that's something I think we all need

718
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: to think about and internalized quite a lot. You know,

719
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: we're we're in a moment in history where whereasive I

720
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: think there's a tremendous amount of goodwill going around right now. Um,

721
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: there's a lot of learning and no matter how elementary

722
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: the learning is, it there's a lot of learning that's happening.

723
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: I wonder if they're you know, in your travels to Uganda,

724
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: to Sudan where wherever perhaps you've traveled for your work,

725
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 1: if you have found organizations or ways two. Maybe maybe

726
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: it's as simple as a monetary way of supporting a

727
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: group or somebody who's doing something good somewhere that people

728
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: listening and us that we could help without interfering. Do

729
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: you do you think there's anything out there that exists

730
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 1: like that. I think before anything else, it's just about

731
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: am I the right person to go out and do

732
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: that thing? And I think learning that for myself is

733
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 1: just like something that took me a long time to

734
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: even like begin to to start understanding. I mean, when

735
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: I went to South Sudan I was nineteen, got off

736
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: the plane to know anybody there and was like, I'm

737
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 1: gonna write stories about this place that I read about

738
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: in books. Learned pretty quickly that maybe I'm not the

739
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: person for it. And you know, it's a tricky thing

740
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: to kind of position yourself and say like where you

741
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: belong and what you should do, what you shouldn't do.

742
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: But where I kind of land after doing this whole

743
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: year long investigation is I tend to err on the

744
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 1: side of inaction now, I feel you, man. I mean,

745
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 1: it's like it gets so fed up and you just

746
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: feel kind of stymied, and it's like why bother that's

747
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: how I feel about the government, just like voting and stuff.

748
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's not good, especially when you see

749
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: so many people mobilizing and getting out, you know, trying

750
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: to at least make a difference. Like I my ex

751
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,280
Speaker 1: wife had had me and my daughter and her friend

752
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: and their son go out and do his protests and

753
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: there our neighborhood, and it's a predominantly black neighborhood, and

754
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 1: I was sort of like, oh, this is preaching to

755
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: the choir. This is so I was so cynical about it.

756
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: And then we went out and it was just people

757
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 1: hunking the horn and just seeing that we gave a

758
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: ship enough to like, you know, stand there on the

759
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,800
Speaker 1: curb with Zion, not saying that's like some grand gesture,

760
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: but it really opened my eyes to the fact that

761
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: even just showing people that you care is meaningful, more

762
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 1: meaningful than you think. I think. Sometimes, you know, it's

763
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: easy to get swept up in the nihilism of it all,

764
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,720
Speaker 1: uh and and to forget that, like, you know, people

765
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: do see you when you see them, and that's important

766
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: not to lose sight of. I think. I don't know,

767
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: I think. To refine my point, then I guess I

768
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: would caution against people that want to start their own

769
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:48,320
Speaker 1: thing without seeing what other people are up to first,

770
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: because there's people out there doing it right. I mean,

771
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 1: like one great example in Gina itself, Right when Renee

772
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: came in to start her organization, there was another white

773
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 1: missionary woman named Elizabeth who had been a former real

774
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: estate broker in California and then one day heard her

775
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 1: calling to Africa and ended up in Uganda. UM. She

776
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: also wanted to tackle malnutrition, but rather than starting her

777
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: own program, building her own facility anything like that, she

778
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: went to the government hospital and asked them what do

779
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 1: you need and ended up building a malnutrition ward for

780
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,280
Speaker 1: them where she would just keep it stocked with supplies

781
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: and help administer the just the logistical and administrative aspects

782
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: of it. Right. She knew the limits of her expertise

783
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: and put everything she knew into action, UM with an

784
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: organization that was already set up to tackle the problem

785
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: that she wanted to tackle. This brings up something that

786
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: got that I think got skipped over a little bit

787
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: at the beginning. They wanted to get in here, uh,

788
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: which is the idea of what what is helping versus hurting?

789
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: There is also wrapped up in that inherently the question

790
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: of what is centering right? Psychologically, we're all programmed to

791
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 1: think of ourselves as the protagonist of our own story, right. Uh.

792
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: And with this, you know, it's an ongoing problem for

793
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: anyone doing international research, uh, that someone comes in and

794
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 1: they say, well, you know, I went to school for this,

795
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 1: uh and I know, like I know a little bit

796
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: of one native language, let me tell you how to

797
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 1: handle this, right. And it's wrapped up in this. But

798
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 1: we also see that in the protest here in um

799
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,879
Speaker 1: the US, right. You know, there have been people with

800
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 1: I'm sure the best of intentions, right, who are who

801
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: are saying, you know, I want to express solidarity by

802
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 1: starting my organization that will uh, that will you know,

803
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 1: make me feel good about doing the right thing right

804
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,879
Speaker 1: and and perhaps back up my performative social media. But

805
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: even within function, these kinds of organizations can be mothering

806
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: and they can also uh divert funding that was going

807
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: to you know, like the government hospital that already really

808
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: needed that maternity ward that you're mentioning that Elizabeth created.

809
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 1: And I think that's a I think that's a powerful thing.

810
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: I'm I know it's a lot to ask, uh, And

811
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: I hope it doesn't sound like, you know, we're heaping

812
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: opprobrium on people who do as you said, probably have

813
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:37,280
Speaker 1: the best intentions. But is that what you would recommend?

814
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 1: Would you recommend for someone who wants to help to

815
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 1: with what would be a good way to say this?

816
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: Would it be more like invest and amplify rather than

817
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: try to start a new thing. I'm not sure the

818
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: right is just take a minute. You know, I'm not

819
00:48:55,600 --> 00:49:00,439
Speaker 1: saying like sit down forever, but like just take a minute, um,

820
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 1: do a bit of research and see who's doing it

821
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:07,720
Speaker 1: out there. I mean I had a moment when after

822
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: I was with the nun in South Sudan where I

823
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 1: wanted to be a missionary, where I wanted to like

824
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: do the thing, and my plan was just to go

825
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 1: move back to South Sudan and live with her and

826
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 1: just like learn the ropes there. And and I think

827
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 1: there's a lot of value in just going to a

828
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 1: place without an agenda necessarily and then just kind of

829
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: soaking it in because a lot of the people that

830
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: go out to these places, I mean, part of the

831
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:38,760
Speaker 1: reason you're going out there is to satisfy the sense

832
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: of adventure, of being in a foreign place. I mean,

833
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: I'm guilty of that as much as any other foreign correspondent.

834
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 1: I think I don't think there's harm in just going

835
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 1: to a place to be there and learn about what's

836
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 1: going on before you decide to do anything. Because nine

837
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 1: times out of ton, whatever problem you're trying to solve,

838
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 1: there's someone already out there doing it and they can

839
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: use your help. I think that's tremendously well said. We

840
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 1: we typically when we explore some of these stories, at

841
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 1: least on our show, we we tried to go toward

842
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 1: the future, which I think you have done very well,

843
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 1: and then we also try to explore current events. We

844
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: mentioned a couple of times a lawsuit for anyone in

845
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 1: the audience who's wondering, UM, as far as I understand regime,

846
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: that lawsuit has not reached a conclusion. Is that correct?

847
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: So yeah, just to um kind of fill in the

848
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: blanks on the lawsuit. In January of nineteen two mothers

849
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:37,720
Speaker 1: who claimed that their children passed away after being treated

850
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 1: at serving his children took Grenade a court um. They

851
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 1: filed a civil suit against her in uh the Ginger

852
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 1: High Court and are currently awaiting the outcome of a

853
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: mediation process to try to settle something out of court,

854
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 1: and if that doesn't happen, then it will return to

855
00:50:55,000 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: the public forum. So since March, I think recently the

856
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: Yugan and government kind of shut down all those processes

857
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: with COVID precautions and so everything's kind of frozen for now.

858
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: But it's a difficult thing to like figure out what

859
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 1: justice looks like necessarily in all these situations, because on

860
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 1: one end, there's an argument that these mothers could just

861
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: settle out of court, get a couple of thousand dollars,

862
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 1: go home, and I just that's a lot of money

863
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 1: out there, right, And then the other argument is like, no,

864
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 1: they gotta fight this thing and they got to prove something,

865
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 1: and um, there's justice to be one here for everybody.

866
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 1: But I think it's a lot to ask as well

867
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 1: of anyone. You know, this is a tremendously heavy thing

868
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 1: to think about and talk about and subject to make

869
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: a show about. But I would just say thank you

870
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: to you and your team for making it to making

871
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 1: all of us aware of what's going on there. He's

872
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 1: better aware. If you'd like to learn more about this

873
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:07,399
Speaker 1: case and everything that happened at serving his children and

874
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,720
Speaker 1: the story of renee Bach and the ongoing lawsuits and

875
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 1: everything involved. We highly recommend you go and check out

876
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: the podcast The Missionary, which is hosted by our guests today,

877
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 1: Regiev Gala, as well as his team members Halima ge

878
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: Gandhi and Malcolm Burnley. Again, can't recommend it enough. The

879
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 1: podcast is called The Missionary. Yeah, Regieve, thank you for

880
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: coming on air with us today. Because you travel so widely,

881
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 1: I can only imagine it must also be a little

882
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: bit odd to be in one place for an extended

883
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 1: amount of time. So thank you for spending this time

884
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: with us. Uh. We want, as Matt said, we want

885
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,839
Speaker 1: everybody to check out this show. It's ongoing as we

886
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:01,919
Speaker 1: record this, but we have their multiple episodes out there.

887
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: We do highly recommend that you dive in. This is

888
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: top notch journalism. Uh. These are and this is not

889
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 1: not blowing smoke here, it's weird, Riggi because I can

890
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 1: see you on the call, but I'm not We're not

891
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 1: saying this because you're here. This is very well researched,

892
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 1: it's captivating, It's more than worth your time. Uh, and

893
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 1: we want to hear what you think about the topics

894
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,839
Speaker 1: we've addressed here in g OS. We want to hear

895
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: what you think about the ideas that we've explored regarding

896
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:35,760
Speaker 1: missionary work and the ideas regarding renee bach Uh Regive.

897
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 1: For people who would like to learn more about you

898
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: and the missionary and your work outside of the missionary

899
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 1: where's the place they can find you or learn more

900
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 1: about you on the on the big creepy big brother

901
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:52,240
Speaker 1: we call the Internet. Well, my portfolio website is rogi

902
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 1: gola dot com and my Twitter handle is rogi Gola,

903
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 1: where you can find me tweeting about NASCAR most of

904
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 1: the time. But hey, Noel uh, speaking of uh speaking

905
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:07,359
Speaker 1: the Internet, I hear our shows on there too. Yeah, Yeah,

906
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: we're we're around. You can find us on the usual

907
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 1: social media spots like Facebook and Instagram and all that,

908
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 1: where either conspiracy stuff or conspiracy stuff show on all

909
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 1: the usual suspects, um. And then you can also find

910
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,879
Speaker 1: us as individual human people. I am on Instagram exclusively

911
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: at how Now Noel Brown, I am at ben Bullan

912
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: hs W. On Twitter, you can find a Regive and

913
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 1: I both on their uh and I am in a

914
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 1: burst of creativity calling myself at ben Bullan on Instagram.

915
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: And if you don't want to use social media, you

916
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: can always give us a phone call. Our number is

917
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 1: one eight three three st d w y t K.

918
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 1: You can leave us a message. You have three minutes

919
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,399
Speaker 1: talk about this episode, any other episode, or another one

920
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 1: you'd like us to cover. Really, we just we'd love

921
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 1: to hear from you, so please give us a call.

922
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: But if none of that, white bags your badgers. We

923
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: have one way you can always get in touch with us.

924
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: You don't have to just uh, you know, meet me

925
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 1: at a crossroads at midnight, or save a name into

926
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 1: a dark mirror. You can send us an email twenty

927
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 1: four hours a day, seven days a week, how many

928
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 1: ever days in a year there are you can reach

929
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: us directly. We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com.

930
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:44,920
Speaker 1: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

931
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

932
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

933
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.