1 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 1: The International Solid Waste Association estimates consumption of single use 2 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: plastic may have grown two hundred and fifty to three 3 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: hundred percent in America since the pandemic begins. 4 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 2: The resurgence of the thin, single use truly single use 5 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 2: plastic bags is astonished. 6 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 3: And is concerned New York's plastic bag ban is not 7 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 3: being enforced. 8 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: The lost full implementation was first delayed in February by 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: a court challenge. 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 4: And then COVID hit, so the thirty day delay became 11 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 4: a sixty day delayed to the ninety day delays. The 12 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 4: pandemic has led to a lot of confusion about whether 13 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 4: it's safe to bring reusable bags into grocery stores. While 14 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 4: some stores allow them, others. 15 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 5: Don't, But single use plastic is also surging in other ways. 16 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 5: Deliveries wrapped in plastic have soared. Coffee shops like Starbucks 17 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 5: have temporarily stopped filling we Use A cups, and some 18 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 5: US cities and states suspended or postponed fans on plastic 19 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 5: shopping bags. The plastics industry has lobbied for these rollbacks, 20 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 5: arguing that single use plastic is the safest material to 21 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 5: protect people from COVID nineteen. 22 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 4: It probably comes as no surprise to you that the 23 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 4: pandemic spurred a massive uptick in plastic. If you were 24 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 4: here in the US, you almost immediately saw it everywhere. 25 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 4: Plastic bags back at the grocery store, plastic wrapping on everything, 26 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 4: the masks, the gloves. But what you might not have 27 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 4: known was just how intentional that was on the part 28 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 4: of the industry, just how ready they were to deploy 29 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 4: a strategy that would increase the use of plastic. If 30 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 4: there's one thing I've learned from covering the fossil fuel 31 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 4: industry and its various forms over the last twenty years, 32 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 4: it's that they are prepared for absolutely everything. Shell actually 33 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 4: invented something called scenario planning back in the late eighties 34 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 4: and early nineties. Now all the oil companies do it, 35 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 4: and lots of other industries too. It's basically what it 36 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 4: sounds like, brainstorming all the possible future scenarios and making 37 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 4: a plan for each of them. No industry is better 38 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 4: at it than the fossil fuel industry, which is why 39 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 4: they always seem to have a response ready for everything. 40 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 4: When COVID nineteen first started to really take hold in 41 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 4: the US back in March twenty twenty, I started scouring 42 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 4: all my usual sources for evidence of the industry's response, 43 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 4: and sure enough, the American Petroleum Institute and the American 44 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 4: Fuel and Petrochemical Manufacturers, the two main trade groups for 45 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 4: the industry, were immediately with politicians asking for regulatory rollbacks 46 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 4: and other types of support. The API tackled everything from 47 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 4: pipeline permitting to emissions regulations, while the AFPM focused on 48 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,679 Speaker 4: all the rules that would affect the buildout of plastic 49 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 4: manufacturing facilities. But they also set their sights on getting 50 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 4: rid of something that's been bugging the industry for years, 51 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 4: plastic bag bands. As you heard at the top of 52 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 4: the episode, there was some concern early on that people 53 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 4: might spread COVID by bringing their bags to the grocery store. 54 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 4: We just didn't know how the virus was spread at 55 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 4: the time, and the industry pounced on that confusion and 56 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 4: the fear that accompanied it, and they pushed this idea 57 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 4: that plastic bags were somehow safer than reusable bags, that 58 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 4: somehow the virus wouldn't live on them. It was sort 59 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 4: of a miracle for the industry when they were starting 60 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 4: to worry that plastic demand would actually not ever be 61 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 4: quite what they wanted it to be. Here comes a 62 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 4: way to increase that demand exponentially. 63 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 3: Well, I think what we're seeing is just how much 64 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 3: the industry is relying on plastics to save it going forward. 65 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 4: This is Carol Muffett, President and CEO of the Center 66 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 4: for International Environmental Law. You heard from him earlier this 67 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 4: season too. 68 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 3: The industry has, on the one hand, been working on 69 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 3: an array of regulatory rollbacks, on working to close down 70 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 3: public opposition in public participation in decisions affecting a lot 71 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 3: of its operations. But on the plastic side, it's gone 72 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,679 Speaker 3: still further and is actually seeking to exploit the current 73 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 3: crisis to say that the world needs. 74 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 6: To be using more, not less, plastic. 75 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 3: And it's doing this at a time where, again, even 76 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 3: before the crisis began, you had major producers of plastics 77 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 3: residents acknowledging that the industry's two hundred billion dollar investment 78 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 3: in infrastructure had been overly optimistic, that capacity was being overbuilt, 79 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 3: that prices for plastic resins and demand for plastic goods 80 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 3: were not growing at anywhere near what the industry had 81 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 3: been assuming it would. 82 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 4: Imman Westervelt, and this is drilled. We're continuing part one 83 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 4: of season six to day plastic pipelines. If you missed 84 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 4: the first two episodes, go back and start there. Our 85 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 4: story today the industry's COVID strategy. Did it work? Did 86 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 4: COVID save plastic? That's coming up after this quick break. 87 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 4: We heard in episode one of this series that plastic 88 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 4: was a way to make up for money that fracking 89 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 4: was not making. But there's another side to the explosion 90 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 4: of plastics over the past decade. It's the oil industry's 91 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 4: escape hatch. 92 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: You know. 93 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 7: Expiration spend is down seventy five percent from the peak, 94 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 7: seventy five percent over seventy five percent, and I don't 95 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 7: see it going up from that point. I see it 96 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 7: going down. 97 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 4: This is Bernard Looney, CEO of BP, talking about peak 98 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 4: oil in twenty twenty. 99 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 7: So I think life has changed over the last couple 100 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 7: of years, but it is important to acknowledge reality, and 101 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 7: that's what we've done. 102 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 4: Peak oil is the term that's used to talk about 103 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 4: this point where global oil demand will take a downward 104 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 4: turn and never really bounce back. And oil companies have 105 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 4: been seeing that point coming for a while in their 106 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 4: projections and annual reports. They've been talking about a decrease 107 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 4: in fossil fuel use in transportation and residential areas, but 108 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 4: they've also been talking about this other area where revenues 109 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 4: are going to increase, petrochemicals, especially plastic. And keep in mind, 110 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 4: while we have solar and wind as replacements for fossil 111 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 4: fuel energy in homes and cars, there aren't a ton 112 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 4: of great replacements for petrochemicals. That's one part of the 113 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 4: reason that the industry is banking on them. Here's Kingsmill Bond, 114 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 4: an analyst with the nonprofit Carbon Tracker who's been researching 115 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 4: the petrochemical industry over the last few years. 116 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 8: Plastics was always like something that you did on the 117 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 8: with your on on the side once once you use 118 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 8: the primary use of oil in transportation other areas, so 119 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 8: it's quite surprising that it's shot up the agenda. And 120 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 8: pretty much, as you say, what's happened over the last 121 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,679 Speaker 8: few years is that all of the other growth drivers 122 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 8: of oil have kind of fallen by the wayside. So 123 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 8: cars used to be one of the four big growth vectors, 124 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,119 Speaker 8: and and and as cars gone more efficient and electric 125 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 8: vehicles coming to the mix, people and now said, well, 126 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 8: you know, even the IA is now saying, actually, we've 127 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 8: probably reached peak demand for oil from cars, and then 128 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 8: the same thing's starting to happen with trucks. And obviously 129 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 8: in recent months, the COVID crisis has taken the steam 130 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 8: out of the the third big pillar, which was airlines, 131 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 8: and like petrochemicals, has become a kind of mantra for 132 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 8: the oil industry that thank goodness for petro chemicals because 133 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 8: you know, that's where all the growth lies. And it's 134 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:44,719 Speaker 8: quite interesting if you if you take the data now 135 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,079 Speaker 8: from VP and the i A, probably the two leading 136 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 8: forecasters of the entire system, then from our calculations, about 137 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 8: half the growth of oil demand in the next twenty 138 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 8: years in the i A numbers is actually from plastics. 139 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 4: So plastic is the savior for the fracking guys and 140 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 4: the oil guys. That's a lot writing on plastic demand 141 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 4: staying high and growing, which is why when COVID hit 142 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 4: it looked like a golden opportunity. Here's Carol Muffett again. 143 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 3: So what we're seeing in the face of COVID is 144 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 3: the industry trying to exploit this crisis in two very 145 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 3: distinct ways. First is to secure additional government investments and 146 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,719 Speaker 3: additional regulatory rollbacks to make these projects move forward. And 147 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 3: the second is the push to exploit the idea of 148 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 3: COVID to argue not only against bands on the single 149 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 3: used to disposable plastics that many countries were moving forward with, 150 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 3: but also to argue that the world should be wrapping 151 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 3: ever more items in plastic packaging in the name of 152 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 3: hygiene and and public safety. And there's a remarkable there's 153 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 3: a remarkable instance of this where you have an industry 154 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 3: representative actually fantasizing, and I'm using this word very advisedly, 155 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 3: fantasizing that they'll be able to get the public to 156 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 3: rep bananas and apples in plastic packaging in the name 157 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 3: of hygiene and fighting the COVID pandemic. And I think 158 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 3: that that is a testament to how overly optimistic the 159 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 3: industry is about how. 160 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 6: It's going to be able to exploit COVID nineteen to 161 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 6: fill that gap in plastic demand. 162 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 4: Trade groups like the FPM and the American Chemistry Council 163 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 4: moved quickly to push out studies to state governors and 164 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 4: to the media showing that reusable bags might be COVID 165 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 4: spreaders governors in some conservative states main I'm looking at 166 00:10:55,040 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 4: you actually moved quicker to ban reusable bags grocery stores 167 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 4: and toss plastic bag bands. Then they did to implement 168 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 4: social distancing and masking guidelines. All of those studies were 169 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 4: industry funded, most of them were a decade or more old, 170 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 4: and none of them showed anything at all about the coronavirus. 171 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 4: One literally looked at a single reusable bag that someone 172 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 4: had vomited next to solid science there but the lack 173 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 4: of evidence did not stop the industry from succeeding in 174 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 4: its goal, at least for a while, which had some 175 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 4: environmental advocates worried the shift away from disposable bags was 176 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 4: a hard one behavioral change. 177 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 3: The industry's goal is clearly to reverse a behavioral shift 178 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 3: that was starting to really take root and grow. 179 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 4: But six months or so into the pandemic, the messaging 180 00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:00,040 Speaker 4: around plastic bags stopped working so well. Stores started to 181 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 4: allow reusable bags again, and it didn't take long for 182 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 4: consumers to get back on board with it. The dream 183 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 4: of wrapping every piece of fruit in plastic never materialized. 184 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 3: The challenge to face and the reason they're likely to fail, 185 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 3: is that the opposition is coming not only from consumers, 186 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 3: but increasingly from the communities who are on the front 187 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 3: lines of build out of plastics, who are working to 188 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 3: stop these plants from being built, increasingly from investors who 189 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 3: are increasingly skeptical about about the prospects of. 190 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 6: Sinking money into this industry. 191 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 3: Clearly, the industry's goal is to see this opportunity to 192 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 3: trigger a short term increase in packaging that takes advantage 193 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 3: of fear. The problem that they face is that fear 194 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,319 Speaker 3: is momentary. 195 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 4: The pandemic isn't quite over yet. But what the early 196 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 4: numbers are telling us is that the industry's COVID strategy 197 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 4: did not work. They were able to drive a momentary 198 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 4: spike in demand, but as Muffett predicted, it was in 199 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 4: fact momentary, and according to carbon tracker analyst Kingsmill Bond, 200 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 4: although the pandemic drove demand up in some areas, it 201 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 4: actually drove it down in others, so much so that 202 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 4: it canceled out the increase the plastic needed for new cars, 203 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 4: for example, or planes, and that actually made for an 204 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 4: overall decline in demand for plastic. Here's Bond explaining the 205 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 4: impacts of that decline. 206 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 8: What's the impact on plastic demand of increasing demand for 207 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 8: medical plastic for ppeus and gloves and stuff. And then 208 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 8: what's the impact of lower demand because of the economic shocks. 209 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 8: So we're buying less cars and we come to the shops, 210 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 8: so we're buying less less clothes, and because you use 211 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 8: a thousand times or more plastic in a car to 212 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 8: what you use in a mask, the actual impact is 213 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 8: to have a four percent decline day estimate in plastics 214 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 8: demand this year, and not to state the obviously a 215 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 8: four percent decline in demand and a four percent increase 216 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 8: in capacity to you know, things looking quite ugly. 217 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 4: So the industry continued to build out more plastic manufacturing 218 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 4: capability and it anticipated an increase in demand, but instead 219 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 4: there's been a four percent decrease in demand at the 220 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 4: same time that we've seen a four percent increase in 221 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 4: capacity last and eight percent gap between supply and demand, 222 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 4: which is a pretty big gap. The industry, of course, 223 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 4: still thinks it's going to close that gap. 224 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 9: Do you think that even before this pandemic that they 225 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 9: are also just sort of convinced in their abilities to 226 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 9: create demand where there is then that like they just 227 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 9: figured that they would that they would find a way. 228 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 3: I think that is certainly the case, and I think 229 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 3: it is the case for the very simple reason that 230 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 3: for decades that strategy has worked. 231 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 6: That strategy has been effective for decades. 232 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 3: This is an industry that has been very good at 233 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 3: creating consumer demand, creating markets where they didn't exist, for 234 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 3: products that people weren't looking for and didn't necessarily need. 235 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 3: And so it's you know, it may come across as 236 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 3: over confidence, but it's overconfidence been built on decades of 237 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 3: an industry effectively exploiting its understandings of consumer behavior. 238 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 4: For decades, the fossil fuel industry has successfully told one 239 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 4: story that it simply supplies a demand that you are 240 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 4: the one buying and using its products. So if you're 241 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 4: worried about the impacts of those products, all you need 242 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 4: to do is reduce your consumption. And don't get me wrong, 243 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 4: it's absolutely necessary for individuals to reduce their carbon footprints, 244 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 4: especially those of us in the global North, and especially 245 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 4: the wealthiest individuals. But that action in the absence of 246 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 4: regulating supply will never work because the industry doesn't just 247 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 4: respond to demand. It works really hard to generate. 248 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 3: It's pervasive and It's a corrosive myth, this this idea 249 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 3: that oil and gas companies and plastics producers are just 250 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 3: producing their products because. 251 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 6: The demand is there. 252 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 3: When you look behind that, what you find is, in truth, 253 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 3: these companies have, you know, very detailed strategies to create 254 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 3: the demand. And nowhere is that clearer than in the 255 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 3: context of plastics. You know, there's no other commodity where 256 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 3: that story of we've got we've got a product, we 257 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 3: need a market for it is clear. And we're seeing 258 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 3: that with the massive buildout of new infrastructure for plastics 259 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 3: here in the US, not because we need it, there's 260 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 3: a glut of plastics on the market, there's no excess demand, 261 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 3: but because there's all of this cheap natural gas, and 262 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 3: so the industry builds out this infrastructure and then looks 263 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 3: to persuade young people to buy more plastics, or increasingly, 264 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 3: to persuade the Global South to buy more plastics, all 265 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 3: while blaming the Global South and Asia for the plastics crisis. 266 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 3: I think one of the starkest ironies in our work 267 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 3: on plastics has actually been seeing simultaneously Exon and the 268 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 3: oil industry and the American Chemistry Council saying yes, plastics 269 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 3: is a problem, but the problem is originating in China 270 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 3: and Asia. And on the other hand, finding a speech 271 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 3: from a vice president of Exxon Mobile delivered in China 272 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 3: saying Asia needs more plastics and we Exon Mobile want 273 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 3: I help you make them. And for anyone who has 274 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 3: worked for as long as I have in the climate context, 275 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 3: that story that blamed China, story that blame the individual, 276 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 3: blame the consumer, story is very very familiar. 277 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 4: Can people do? How are folks like Diane Wilson and 278 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 4: Texas Sharon Levine in Louisiana managing to successfully fight back? 279 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 4: And what can their fights tell us about the global 280 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 4: push to tackle this problem? That story next time, next 281 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 4: time on drilled. 282 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: The twenty million that we put into this co op 283 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: was a chance at reviving our to be auson. 284 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 6: I mean, it's going to devastate it. 285 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 4: I mean I think for a long time we're just 286 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 4: going to be playing whackamall with facilities that have already 287 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 4: been proposed. Wow, okay, so there's already twelve other industrial. 288 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 9: Sites in Saint James Parish. 289 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: Right, and more being proposed, like including SoC We's even 290 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: a methanol another pet can facility just Downriver from Formosa. 291 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 4: Drilled is an original production of the Critical Frequency podcast Network. 292 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 4: The show is reported, written, and hosted by me Amy Westervelt. 293 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 4: Our producer this season is Juliana Bradley. Our editor is 294 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 4: Julia Ritchie. Our theme song this season is Death Song 295 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 4: by be Beeman. Additional music for the season composed by 296 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 4: Elliott Peltzman. Our artwork for the season is done by 297 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 4: Matthew Fleming. Our First Amendment attorney is James Wheaton at 298 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 4: the First Amendment Project. You can find additional reporting and 299 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 4: photos for this season on our Twitter feed at We 300 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 4: Are Drilled, or online at drillednews dot com. If you're 301 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 4: a fan of the show, please consider supporting us in 302 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 4: two ways. One, if you want to spend some money 303 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 4: and get some extra bonus content at learn the episodes, 304 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 4: check out our patreon at patreon dot com slash Drilled. 305 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 4: You can also support us by giving us a rating 306 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 4: or review in Apple Podcasts. It really helps us find 307 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 4: new listeners and combat the army of climate denier trolls 308 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 4: that are constantly trying to tank our ratings. Thanks for 309 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 4: doing that, and we'll see you next week.