WEBVTT - Bonus: In Conversation with Robert Kolker 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:13.560 Family Secrets as a production of I Heart Radio High 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:17.720 Family Secrets. Family It's Danny. Last week I had the 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:20.600 pleasure of being part of an ongoing series produced by 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:25.000 Penguin Random House called Two Writers Talking. The writers in 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:28.960 this case were myself and Bob Colcher, author of the 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:33.120 blockbuster Hidden Valley Road. Bob and I were moderated by 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:37.000 New York Times journalist and critic Jennifer sr. The subject, 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:41.760 you guessed it, Family Secrets. I'm excited to share this 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:46.240 special bonus episode with you, and remember April one, we'll 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:49.080 be dropping a whole new season Between now and then, 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:51.760 though we have a few surprises in store, so keep 0:00:51.800 --> 0:01:03.560 your eyes and ears out. What were you most responsive 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:06.319 to in each other's books? And they may or may 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:09.160 not have had to do with secrecy. I'm happy to 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:11.920 go first. That's all right, Thank you, Danny for the 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:14.080 chance to talk with you about your book. I I 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:18.000 really was was blown away by it. I thought that 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:22.840 the the part about it that really struck me was 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:27.399 sort of the the two reactions that you had to 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:31.160 this news about your about your biological heritage. Your first, 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:33.720 the first thing you do is you look in the 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.240 mirror and you wonder if you're still yourself, you know, 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.119 if this you're wondering how this news actually changes you. 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:43.120 And then the ripple effects start and you start to 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:45.880 wonder if the information was there all along and you've 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.600 only wielded away. You know that remark your mother made 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:52.920 several years earlier, why didn't you see that? And several 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:58.840 other clues that you almost wilfully didn't um, I didn't notice, 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:01.440 and I recognized in the family I reported on and 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:05.320 in Hidden Valley Road, you have you have children who 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:08.639 learn more and more secrets as they get older. The 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:12.880 mother in the book, Mimi Galvin, she she tends to 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.120 let loose new pieces of information when they're back is 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:17.880 against the wall. So so the revelations keep coming into 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:23.480 her nineties and after a while, uh, they're so whipsawed 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.639 by all the new information they start to wonder if 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:28.760 if the in certain cases, that there are things they 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:30.600 should have known all along, if they really had been 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:34.240 trying to assemble a narrative. And it's this assembling of 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:37.000 your own personal narrative that interests me the most, and 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:40.079 how fragile it can be. But I had I had 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:45.800 a very similar response reading Hidden Valley Road, and um 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:49.160 thinking about the ways in which I which I loved. Yeah, 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:54.080 I cried multiple times, especially towards the end. The sisters, 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:58.320 the two the two youngest children, the only girls in 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:05.160 the family, um are I think the ones who grapple most, 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:11.440 each in their own way with what they didn't know, 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:15.280 what they might have known, what what each of them? Uh, 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:18.320 you know that there's a conversation that they have fairly 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:20.760 not early, but like in the middle, in the middle 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:24.360 of the book, where one asked the other, did this 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.320 happen to you too? I don't know spoilers, but you know, 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.600 did this happen to you too? And the answer is no, 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:32.919 I have no idea what you're talking about. And then 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:36.800 way later, as adults, they have the same conversation again 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:41.680 and the answer, of course is yes, and and and 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.800 the sister who was asked that doesn't even remember being 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.760 asked that. And So there's this way in which I 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:52.320 think that family secrets um or or secrets in general, 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:57.720 the toxicity of them renders them like young call secrets 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:03.240 psychic poison, right, So it renders them um something that 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:07.640 we may know on some level but can't touch. And 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.680 the family in Hi Valley Road is just it's full 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.840 of so many secrets that ricochet off of each other 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:18.159 and can't touch each other. And you know, in my case, 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:22.400 inheritances is a is a memoir, and it's it's my 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:28.839 own story. But because I have written nine books prior, 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:34.760 I actually have a body of evidence for what I 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:40.640 actually new but couldn't think because it's in my fiction, 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.719 it's in my earlier memoirs. It's like the thing that 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:49.039 was always there that I was digging for without knowing 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.880 that I was digging. I I really did not consciously 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:54.919 know it, but I now see there was a trail 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:58.600 of breadcrumbs. Danny, what was that term that you had 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:04.400 as I go, analytic term unsought the unthought known, unthought 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.560 coined by a psychoanalyst named Christopher Bolas has written a 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.440 great deal about it. The unthought known, which is just 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:15.680 one of my favorite phrases ever, I think is really 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:21.800 defines what we absolutely in our gut, you know, in 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:25.280 our um. You know that we know it, but we 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:30.039 can't think it because it's too dangerous. So you mentioned 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.600 that young had this young who, by the way, had 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.440 a psychotic break and may in fact of vin schizophrenic himself, 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:39.200 which is an interesting through line through all of the 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:45.520 um you mentioned that Young talked about called secrets psychic poison. 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:49.760 They're good for books, though, right, I mean there, I 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:52.239 feel like some of the best literature is about deceit 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:55.000 if not all of it. And so I am wondering 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:58.800 if you, before we dive into your books, if you 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:02.880 have favorite books of about deceit um, and if you 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:08.040 think secrets are at least useful in helping structure a narrative, 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:09.839 you know, I mean, if you were looking to the 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:14.320 anything in particular. They certainly offer a surprise ending sometimes 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:18.360 in um in Danny's case of surprise beginning in inheritance, 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:21.040 but the sort of like the end of a mystery, 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.080 you know, hindsight twenty. But I look back on many 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.440 years of magazine writing and writing, you know, crime stories, 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.880 and I see more and more stories about families in crisis, 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:34.839 and quite often with information that's been tamped down because 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:39.799 of scandal and then comes out again because of the narrative. 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:41.960 And I'm writing about so, you know, I wrote about 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.600 a young man who was on trial for a gay 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:46.240 hate crime, and in the middle of the trial, he 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:48.560 stands up and declares that he himself is gay, comes 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.839 out of the closet and reveals his secret. And UM, 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:55.159 one woman's life being molested by her father culminates with 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:57.480 her murdering her father and then going on trial so 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:01.440 that the secret she couldn't keep closed up for ever. UM. 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:04.760 I think about it a lot in terms of its 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:09.120 narrative power. But UM, and I see it everywhere. When 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:12.200 I started reporting on the Galvins, I thought about American pastoral, 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:16.280 which you know, has a has a family calamity that 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:20.760 that feels so hard to explain, but it's also quite scandalous, 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:25.240 and and secrets are kept and then the parents or 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.320 the father in particular, is searching, you know what, what 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:30.080 is it you know in the past that might have 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:33.120 caused this? What secret relationship with his daughter might have 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.560 triggered this. I think it's an effort to find clarity 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.720 in an effort to write the story. UM. You know, 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:42.280 I had listened to to a bonus episode of Family 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:46.200 Secrets with with Bessel vander Kolke, who is no relation 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:49.640 to Coker and UM. But but he said something that 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:52.560 really really hit me about and I'm going to mangle it, 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:54.840 but it's about trauma. Is a story that can't be written. 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:58.680 So so the you know, your effort to write your 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.000 book and the Galvin's determination to tell their story is 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:05.520 to me, it's a way of moving through trauma and 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.720 to try to give it a give it, uh, if 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.000 not a happy ending, at least to help it settle 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.760 down a little bit. I love that Um and the vessels. 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.080 The quote is um, it's a nature of trauma that 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.760 it doesn't allow a story to be told, which is 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:25.400 why when we're when we're traumatized by something, all of us, 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:29.480 our our our first instinct is to tell the story 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:33.640 again and again and again to whoever will listen, because 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:37.200 we're trying to we're trying to contain it, and it's 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:41.360 like water running through our open fingers. It's it feels impossible. 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:45.640 And of course, you know, narrative ultimately like finding a 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:49.960 way to shape trauma into art, you know, or you know, 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:54.000 chaos into some kind of you know, shape or clarity 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.840 is um the work of literature and the work of life, 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:00.680 I think. But you know, people me all the time 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:05.800 about family secrets and my podcast and my like do 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:09.760 I go hunting to those searching for my guests? And 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:15.640 you know, I don't because the stories keep on coming, 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:21.960 and they are very often wonderful books that either I 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:25.240 you know, I find them, I read them, I know them, 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:29.000 or the authors or friends of mine and I suddenly think, oh, 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.080 that would be Nick Flynn, that would be an amazing story. 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:34.760 Or Jenny Boylan that would be an amazing story. Or 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.360 Ti Kira Madden that would be an amazing story. K 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:40.080 s A. Lehman that we could go on. It's just 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:44.240 it's why there are so many writers on my show. 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:48.760 It's not because it's a literary podcast. It's because the 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:54.600 work I think that writers do of finding a way 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:59.640 to take a secret, a trauma, multiple secrets, multiple multiple traumas, 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:03.800 and shaped them so that then you know, what we 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:10.120 have is not only the mess, but the transcendence, you know, 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:13.920 the redemption in some way from that, the the the 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.319 turning it into something that has meaning and that will 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:21.959 have meaning for others. That actually, excuse me, it's funny 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:25.280 written right on my she'd here is The next thing 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:26.520 that I wanted to ask you is what do you 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.200 what do you think the hardest thing is about writing 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.480 about family secrets? Like what what makes it? What are 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:34.520 the biggest challenges and I think that each of you 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.600 are going to have very different answers. Obviously, Bob, you 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:39.400 were trying to earn the confidence of the family, and 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:43.000 you are Danny. This is very personal to you. So, Bob, 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:44.160 I mean, do you want to go first? I mean, 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:47.760 it's going to be idiosyncratic, and it's going to vary 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:50.360 from story to story and what advantage point you're telling 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.320 it from, obviously, But for for you in this project, Bob, 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:57.760 what was it? I certainly certainly believe the stakes for 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:01.200 Danny must have been very personal and very high, as 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.800 you're writing about friends and loved ones, Whereas with with me, 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:08.400 I'm I'm encountering these sisters who are the first people 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.319 I met in the family, who are determined to be transparent. 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:13.719 They want to smash all the secrets to bits. They 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:17.120 want to be in the open. But I am you know, 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.880 I'm not them. I'm I'm I'm a reporter, and so 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.800 I need to make sure that they trust me. But 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:26.840 more importantly, I need to talk to everybody in the 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.240 family to make sure that I'm telling an accurate and 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:32.679 fair story. And that took a year before I before 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.559 I even got the book deal. Uh, talking to various 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:38.640 family members because I was very skeptical. I was convinced 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.880 that one family member at least would stand up and say, 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:43.360 you've got to be kidding me. I don't want my 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:47.280 family secrets in a book. And Um, I hadn't been 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:49.559 prepared for just how much the rest of the family 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:54.280 would defer to the sisters, and also how optimistic they 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:56.640 were that they had something to to tell the world 0:11:56.640 --> 0:12:00.240 about the science of mental illness and and about how 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:02.640 they moved through their traumas as a family. So I 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:06.760 was happily surprised when they did it. But but the 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:11.840 biggest risk is that you that you'd say betrayed that 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.280 trust or that or that you you skew it in 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:17.959 some way where it it quite clearly as a self 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:22.480 serving work of journalism. I had to be removed enough 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:26.520 from the situation so that I didn't I didn't write 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:32.480 something to um, can you know too completely flimsy. But 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.839 I also wanted to report as intimately as possible about 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:39.160 these people's thoughts and feelings. So that was my challenge. Bob, 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:43.280 Can I ask you why you think that they all 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:46.520 really did come on board? That's that that's so unusual 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:49.280 that they all did. Was it was that out of 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:51.240 a kind of sense of duty in a way to 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.960 the two sisters, or was it also as you you 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:55.880 touched upon, like in the name of science, that there 0:12:55.920 --> 0:13:00.679 was this extraordinary opportunity to uh, you know, for the 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.440 world to learn something about schizophrenia. And can I just 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.840 jump on and also say, was there I can't remember anywhere? 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.599 Was who was the toughest cell, if there was a 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:13.319 kind of cell. I mean, there were three or four 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.240 things that The first was that that most of the 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.240 horrible events in the family had happened thirty or years 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.480 ago or more so, I hadn't really considered how how 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.040 long ago the events were. The second was deferring to 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:26.920 the sisters who were the youngest in the family, and 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.680 so older brothers who were had left the house earlier, 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:33.360 felt guilty frankly that so much had trickled down and 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.160 things that they never knew happened had happened to the sisters. 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:40.040 Family secrets had happened to the sisters, and so they said, okay, 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.520 if they wanted, then that's fine. And then there was 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:48.040 late breaking scientific information about the family genetic UH code. 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.520 Two different groups of researchers found out two different things 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:53.800 that were really stunning, all at the same time. And 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.000 then finally the big one is that Mimi the mother 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:59.720 was on board UM for the first time. She was 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:01.840 not interested for a very long time, but she was 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:05.840 around ninety now and in very frail health, and everybody 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:07.559 thought it was an hour never And I think the 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:11.360 scientific breakthroughs were very validating to her. It made her, 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.040 you know, it made her feel comfortable saying this was genetic, 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.640 this wasn't my fault. And so she was fine talking 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:21.080 to me about about what she wanted to talk about. 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:24.120 What was toughest for you. I mean, Danny, this is 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.760 going to be a very different I can't even imagine. Yeah, 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.440 And there were a couple of different layers one and 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:35.800 both of my parents were gone UM. And people have 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.200 sometimes asked me how I think the story might have 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:41.600 been different if my parents were alive, or if one 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.880 of them had been alive, if my father had still 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:50.240 been living, there wouldn't be a book. I just wouldn't 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:55.400 have written it while he was living. UM. He I 0:14:55.440 --> 0:15:03.200 believe very much. UM wanted this distayed married. It was 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:05.480 something he was both of my parents were going to 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:08.160 take to the grave with them and they did. And 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:12.160 then I remember when Inherent was about to come out, 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:15.840 and the first piece that was published was in Time magazine, 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:19.840 and it was a big thing, and there was this 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:24.120 photograph of my dad and me um on the beach, 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:30.000 happy like playful, loving photograph. And when the piece came out, 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:32.720 I had such a pang because I thought, like that 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:37.040 young father, if he could have had a crystal ball 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:43.000 and seeing a future where his this secret that I 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.080 think was so deep that he perhaps was even keeping 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:49.920 it from himself, that that would have been there in 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:52.880 a magazine that he read, you know, religiously every week, 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:56.080 there for all the world to see. I was. I 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.440 was just very aware of the that was painful for me, 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:03.280 but all so felt to me in terms of like, well, 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.400 what right do I have to tell this story? I 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:10.240 have grappled with that in other books. With Inheritance, I 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:15.360 never grappled with it, because it literally felt like the 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:19.240 story of my life, Like this was that I had 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:21.840 a right to tell it and to explore it and 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:26.320 to you know, go deeply and as a journalist into 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.880 you know, the his who who were my parents before 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:31.560 I was born? And what was the world that they 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:35.480 lived in? But the other piece of it was I 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:41.200 discovered my biological father and um, he This is not 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:45.200 a spoiler. I mean he had been an anonymous sperm 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:49.120 donor as a twenty two year old medical student and 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:55.640 was very conscious of his privacy, as was I. And 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:57.880 from the time that he and I started having any 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.600 contact with each other, it was very clear that I 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:03.440 was going to write a book about this. I mean 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:05.639 it was it was the book that everything else had 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:11.560 led to. UM and I was transparent about that with 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:16.480 my biological father and with his family, that his wife 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.760 and the kids that I was in touch with. But 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.920 when I promised that I would protect his his identity, 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:26.920 and I worked very hard to protect his identity. When 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:31.560 I finished the manuscript and before it started going down 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:34.439 the pipeline towards being published, I did something that is 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:38.200 such a memoir one oh one. You don't do this, 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:42.359 but I had to, which was I sent it to 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:46.119 him and I asked him to read it. Really for 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:51.040 a sense. I wanted to know that he felt that 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.960 that I hadn't missed anything, that there was no little 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:57.600 tell in there where somebody who really wanted to and 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.600 became obsessed configure out who he was, but I think 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.600 I was also looking for his blessing, which I which 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:08.120 I received from him. I received an extraordinary long let 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:10.359 her back from him after he had read it, with 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:12.119 a list of all the things that he liked, some 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.120 of which were things that were very tough in the book, um, 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.720 but really saying I feel that you've been fair. This 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:23.080 reflects my experience too, and he felt that his identity 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:26.879 had been protected. So that was that was this piece 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.720 of that process that was very different from me, because 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.080 even with my own mother, when she was living and 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.720 I published earlier memoirs, I did not submit them to 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:39.960 her for her approval before they came out. I love 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:43.880 the part in your book where you infer I'm sure 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:47.480 correctly that they've googled you. You know that your your 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:50.880 your biological father and his family that that that they 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.840 all and I just imagine, you know, with a smile 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:56.760 and saying, oh my god, she's going to write about this. 0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:59.560 There's no reas not going to write about this. I 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.560 kind of breaks on everything for a little while. Yeah, 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:05.800 I mean I think initially, when when I think the 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:10.280 reticence about having any contact with me was like Oprah 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.000 could be lurking in the bushes and jumping out with 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:14.880 a camera crew. Yeah, I was like, wow, this is great. 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.040 She's a writer. How interesting? Oh this is terrible. She 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:21.320 writes about her family and identity. And yeah, although I 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:24.520 had this thought that like that happened, and then they 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:28.560 started reading you and they were like, oh, but maybe 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.439 this will be wonderful, and maybe this will be just 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:34.199 the thing. You know, he clearly is one over, like 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:37.719 he's he understands how everything is so well considered in 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:43.320 your writing, So he he gets it. Yet yet it's complicated, right, 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:46.080 because what does it mean to be? And I was 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:48.800 very aware of this when the book came out. You know, 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:51.760 he was just about eighty when the book came out, 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:57.199 and this very private person, and it was kind of 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:58.840 you know, it was kind of hard to miss. He 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:00.919 would turn on the TV or there would be a 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:06.880 magazine and these things. I think we're a little intense 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.800 because it was also a story that was in a 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:14.880 way part of his story too. But he was certainly 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:20.520 choosing anonymity and and I was offering it so on 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:23.040 a human level. I mean, it's just I mean, he 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:24.879 and I have spoken about it, but will never speak 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.600 about it publicly. I don't think, but it's just an 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:31.600 interesting thing to grapple with. And we were all googling 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:36.200 each other, like, Matt, Meanwhile, your father, like the man 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:40.320 who brought you up, is is all over inheritance you know. 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:45.320 He it's dedicated to him, your your relationship with him, 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:47.840 and your new thoughts on how you how how will 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:49.800 you relate to him now that you have this news. 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:54.080 It's something you wrestle with so openly and cogently all 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:56.720 the way through it really, um, I feel like it 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.840 keeps coming back to him. It's another part that really 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:04.080 struck me. Thank you. Yeah. And when people ask me 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:09.320 the dedication page of inheritances is it's books dedicated to 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:13.800 my father. And I don't specify which father which because 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:16.359 of course I didn't specify which father. Of course it 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:19.439 should be a parent. That I have one father, I 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.359 have one dad, uh, and that's the dad who raised me. 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:25.040 But people would bring that up and I'm like, no, 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:27.760 that's the whole point. Can I just point something out 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:29.920 you said, of course it would it should be a parent. 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:33.520 That's no. I mean, it's just one of these weird 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:38.800 oral accidents. That's not the you know, you were talking 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:40.280 to This is going to apply to both you, and 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:41.960 I think it is going to be the final question 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:43.840 actually before we go on and look at some of 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:48.159 the audience questions. But um so, Danny, you obviously went 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:51.800 to extraordinary lens to make sure that you know your 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:56.439 biological father was comfortable with this, and he's probably had 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:58.919 some instinctive sense of what you owed him. What do 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:01.399 you think we owe the people who actually in our 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:05.200 families who might deceive us, like, what do we owe them? 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:07.400 It's got to be a question you've wrestled with, and 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:12.160 I mean, certainly the two youngest sisters had very different 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:16.199 approaches to what they believed they owe their families. So 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:18.320 I think i'll I'll leave it on that. I think 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:23.200 it's And Danny, you also are now you're an aficionado 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.520 of of family secret stories. You've seen You've talked with 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:28.680 a couple of dozen people now who have been through 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:34.119 revelations and found new ways to interprelate with their family. 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:39.400 In the case of the Galvin's um that in the beginning, 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:42.679 I met the sisters together, and I thought that perhaps 0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:45.159 this would be a story about two sisters who hobbled 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:47.680 together and made it through a very difficult childhood, that 0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:50.520 they could be some of the people we would root 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:53.680 for in this story as they grow up. And then 0:22:54.040 --> 0:22:56.239 once I interviewed them separately, I found that they were 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:59.040 quite different people, that they had had many years of 0:22:59.080 --> 0:23:01.840 closeness and then many years of not so closeness, that 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:04.600 they had been through very similar traumas as children, but 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:07.800 had processed them differently. And I was thrown by it 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:12.440 for a moment or two. UM, But then I sat 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:15.800 up and said, this is this is reality. Different people 0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:19.159 experience their families in different ways. UM. I have a 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:21.840 you know, a sister and brother who might be watching 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:23.520 on the zoom. Now, you know, we grew up in 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:25.520 the same house, but in different houses, you know, and 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:28.040 we have different memories that may each of which are 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:32.360 probably self serving. And so when the privilege I had 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:34.080 in writing the Galvin story is to be able to 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:38.639 write about these um, these women's lives over decades and 0:23:38.640 --> 0:23:41.520 also their brothers, and to see how their perceptions of 0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:43.919 their family change, and how they're the way they decided 0:23:43.960 --> 0:23:49.119 to relate to their family changes. Um. They Lindsay starts 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:52.600 out wanting to leave UM and never come back. She 0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:55.600