1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: Family Secrets as a production of I Heart Radio High 2 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: Family Secrets. Family It's Danny. Last week I had the 3 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: pleasure of being part of an ongoing series produced by 4 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: Penguin Random House called Two Writers Talking. The writers in 5 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: this case were myself and Bob Colcher, author of the 6 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: blockbuster Hidden Valley Road. Bob and I were moderated by 7 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: New York Times journalist and critic Jennifer sr. The subject, 8 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: you guessed it, Family Secrets. I'm excited to share this 9 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: special bonus episode with you, and remember April one, we'll 10 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: be dropping a whole new season Between now and then, 11 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: though we have a few surprises in store, so keep 12 00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: your eyes and ears out. What were you most responsive 13 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: to in each other's books? And they may or may 14 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: not have had to do with secrecy. I'm happy to 15 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: go first. That's all right, Thank you, Danny for the 16 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: chance to talk with you about your book. I I 17 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: really was was blown away by it. I thought that 18 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: the the part about it that really struck me was 19 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: sort of the the two reactions that you had to 20 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: this news about your about your biological heritage. Your first, 21 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: the first thing you do is you look in the 22 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: mirror and you wonder if you're still yourself, you know, 23 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,119 Speaker 1: if this you're wondering how this news actually changes you. 24 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: And then the ripple effects start and you start to 25 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: wonder if the information was there all along and you've 26 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: only wielded away. You know that remark your mother made 27 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: several years earlier, why didn't you see that? And several 28 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: other clues that you almost wilfully didn't um, I didn't notice, 29 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: and I recognized in the family I reported on and 30 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: in Hidden Valley Road, you have you have children who 31 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 1: learn more and more secrets as they get older. The 32 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: mother in the book, Mimi Galvin, she she tends to 33 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: let loose new pieces of information when they're back is 34 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: against the wall. So so the revelations keep coming into 35 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: her nineties and after a while, uh, they're so whipsawed 36 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 1: by all the new information they start to wonder if 37 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: if the in certain cases, that there are things they 38 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: should have known all along, if they really had been 39 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: trying to assemble a narrative. And it's this assembling of 40 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: your own personal narrative that interests me the most, and 41 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: how fragile it can be. But I had I had 42 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: a very similar response reading Hidden Valley Road, and um 43 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: thinking about the ways in which I which I loved. Yeah, 44 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: I cried multiple times, especially towards the end. The sisters, 45 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: the two the two youngest children, the only girls in 46 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: the family, um are I think the ones who grapple most, 47 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: each in their own way with what they didn't know, 48 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: what they might have known, what what each of them? Uh, 49 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: you know that there's a conversation that they have fairly 50 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: not early, but like in the middle, in the middle 51 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: of the book, where one asked the other, did this 52 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: happen to you too? I don't know spoilers, but you know, 53 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: did this happen to you too? And the answer is no, 54 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: I have no idea what you're talking about. And then 55 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: way later, as adults, they have the same conversation again 56 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: and the answer, of course is yes, and and and 57 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: the sister who was asked that doesn't even remember being 58 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: asked that. And So there's this way in which I 59 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: think that family secrets um or or secrets in general, 60 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: the toxicity of them renders them like young call secrets 61 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: psychic poison, right, So it renders them um something that 62 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: we may know on some level but can't touch. And 63 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: the family in Hi Valley Road is just it's full 64 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: of so many secrets that ricochet off of each other 65 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 1: and can't touch each other. And you know, in my case, 66 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: inheritances is a is a memoir, and it's it's my 67 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: own story. But because I have written nine books prior, 68 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: I actually have a body of evidence for what I 69 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: actually new but couldn't think because it's in my fiction, 70 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 1: it's in my earlier memoirs. It's like the thing that 71 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: was always there that I was digging for without knowing 72 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: that I was digging. I I really did not consciously 73 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 1: know it, but I now see there was a trail 74 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: of breadcrumbs. Danny, what was that term that you had 75 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: as I go, analytic term unsought the unthought known, unthought 76 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: coined by a psychoanalyst named Christopher Bolas has written a 77 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: great deal about it. The unthought known, which is just 78 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: one of my favorite phrases ever, I think is really 79 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: defines what we absolutely in our gut, you know, in 80 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 1: our um. You know that we know it, but we 81 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: can't think it because it's too dangerous. So you mentioned 82 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: that young had this young who, by the way, had 83 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: a psychotic break and may in fact of vin schizophrenic himself, 84 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: which is an interesting through line through all of the 85 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: um you mentioned that Young talked about called secrets psychic poison. 86 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: They're good for books, though, right, I mean there, I 87 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,239 Speaker 1: feel like some of the best literature is about deceit 88 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: if not all of it. And so I am wondering 89 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: if you, before we dive into your books, if you 90 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: have favorite books of about deceit um, and if you 91 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: think secrets are at least useful in helping structure a narrative, 92 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, if you were looking to the 93 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: anything in particular. They certainly offer a surprise ending sometimes 94 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: in um in Danny's case of surprise beginning in inheritance, 95 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: but the sort of like the end of a mystery, 96 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: you know, hindsight twenty. But I look back on many 97 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: years of magazine writing and writing, you know, crime stories, 98 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: and I see more and more stories about families in crisis, 99 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: and quite often with information that's been tamped down because 100 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,799 Speaker 1: of scandal and then comes out again because of the narrative. 101 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: And I'm writing about so, you know, I wrote about 102 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: a young man who was on trial for a gay 103 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: hate crime, and in the middle of the trial, he 104 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: stands up and declares that he himself is gay, comes 105 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: out of the closet and reveals his secret. And UM, 106 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: one woman's life being molested by her father culminates with 107 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: her murdering her father and then going on trial so 108 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: that the secret she couldn't keep closed up for ever. UM. 109 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: I think about it a lot in terms of its 110 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: narrative power. But UM, and I see it everywhere. When 111 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: I started reporting on the Galvins, I thought about American pastoral, 112 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: which you know, has a has a family calamity that 113 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: that feels so hard to explain, but it's also quite scandalous, 114 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: and and secrets are kept and then the parents or 115 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: the father in particular, is searching, you know what, what 116 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: is it you know in the past that might have 117 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: caused this? What secret relationship with his daughter might have 118 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: triggered this. I think it's an effort to find clarity 119 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: in an effort to write the story. UM. You know, 120 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: I had listened to to a bonus episode of Family 121 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: Secrets with with Bessel vander Kolke, who is no relation 122 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: to Coker and UM. But but he said something that 123 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: really really hit me about and I'm going to mangle it, 124 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: but it's about trauma. Is a story that can't be written. 125 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: So so the you know, your effort to write your 126 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: book and the Galvin's determination to tell their story is 127 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: to me, it's a way of moving through trauma and 128 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: to try to give it a give it, uh, if 129 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: not a happy ending, at least to help it settle 130 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: down a little bit. I love that Um and the vessels. 131 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: The quote is um, it's a nature of trauma that 132 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't allow a story to be told, which is 133 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: why when we're when we're traumatized by something, all of us, 134 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: our our our first instinct is to tell the story 135 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: again and again and again to whoever will listen, because 136 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: we're trying to we're trying to contain it, and it's 137 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: like water running through our open fingers. It's it feels impossible. 138 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: And of course, you know, narrative ultimately like finding a 139 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: way to shape trauma into art, you know, or you know, 140 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: chaos into some kind of you know, shape or clarity 141 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: is um the work of literature and the work of life, 142 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: I think. But you know, people me all the time 143 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: about family secrets and my podcast and my like do 144 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: I go hunting to those searching for my guests? And 145 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: you know, I don't because the stories keep on coming, 146 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: and they are very often wonderful books that either I 147 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: you know, I find them, I read them, I know them, 148 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: or the authors or friends of mine and I suddenly think, oh, 149 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: that would be Nick Flynn, that would be an amazing story. 150 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: Or Jenny Boylan that would be an amazing story. Or 151 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: Ti Kira Madden that would be an amazing story. K 152 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: s A. Lehman that we could go on. It's just 153 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: it's why there are so many writers on my show. 154 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: It's not because it's a literary podcast. It's because the 155 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: work I think that writers do of finding a way 156 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: to take a secret, a trauma, multiple secrets, multiple multiple traumas, 157 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: and shaped them so that then you know, what we 158 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: have is not only the mess, but the transcendence, you know, 159 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: the redemption in some way from that, the the the 160 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 1: turning it into something that has meaning and that will 161 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 1: have meaning for others. That actually, excuse me, it's funny 162 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: written right on my she'd here is The next thing 163 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: that I wanted to ask you is what do you 164 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: what do you think the hardest thing is about writing 165 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: about family secrets? Like what what makes it? What are 166 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: the biggest challenges and I think that each of you 167 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: are going to have very different answers. Obviously, Bob, you 168 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: were trying to earn the confidence of the family, and 169 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: you are Danny. This is very personal to you. So, Bob, 170 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: I mean, do you want to go first? I mean, 171 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: it's going to be idiosyncratic, and it's going to vary 172 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: from story to story and what advantage point you're telling 173 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: it from, obviously, But for for you in this project, Bob, 174 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: what was it? I certainly certainly believe the stakes for 175 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: Danny must have been very personal and very high, as 176 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: you're writing about friends and loved ones, Whereas with with me, 177 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: I'm I'm encountering these sisters who are the first people 178 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: I met in the family, who are determined to be transparent. 179 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:13,719 Speaker 1: They want to smash all the secrets to bits. They 180 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: want to be in the open. But I am you know, 181 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: I'm not them. I'm I'm I'm a reporter, and so 182 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: I need to make sure that they trust me. But 183 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: more importantly, I need to talk to everybody in the 184 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: family to make sure that I'm telling an accurate and 185 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 1: fair story. And that took a year before I before 186 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 1: I even got the book deal. Uh, talking to various 187 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: family members because I was very skeptical. I was convinced 188 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: that one family member at least would stand up and say, 189 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: you've got to be kidding me. I don't want my 190 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: family secrets in a book. And Um, I hadn't been 191 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: prepared for just how much the rest of the family 192 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: would defer to the sisters, and also how optimistic they 193 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: were that they had something to to tell the world 194 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: about the science of mental illness and and about how 195 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: they moved through their traumas as a family. So I 196 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: was happily surprised when they did it. But but the 197 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: biggest risk is that you that you'd say betrayed that 198 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: trust or that or that you you skew it in 199 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,959 Speaker 1: some way where it it quite clearly as a self 200 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: serving work of journalism. I had to be removed enough 201 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: from the situation so that I didn't I didn't write 202 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: something to um, can you know too completely flimsy. But 203 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 1: I also wanted to report as intimately as possible about 204 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: these people's thoughts and feelings. So that was my challenge. Bob, 205 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: Can I ask you why you think that they all 206 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: really did come on board? That's that that's so unusual 207 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: that they all did. Was it was that out of 208 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: a kind of sense of duty in a way to 209 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: the two sisters, or was it also as you you 210 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: touched upon, like in the name of science, that there 211 00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: was this extraordinary opportunity to uh, you know, for the 212 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: world to learn something about schizophrenia. And can I just 213 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: jump on and also say, was there I can't remember anywhere? 214 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,599 Speaker 1: Was who was the toughest cell, if there was a 215 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 1: kind of cell. I mean, there were three or four 216 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: things that The first was that that most of the 217 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: horrible events in the family had happened thirty or years 218 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: ago or more so, I hadn't really considered how how 219 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: long ago the events were. The second was deferring to 220 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: the sisters who were the youngest in the family, and 221 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: so older brothers who were had left the house earlier, 222 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: felt guilty frankly that so much had trickled down and 223 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: things that they never knew happened had happened to the sisters. 224 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: Family secrets had happened to the sisters, and so they said, okay, 225 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: if they wanted, then that's fine. And then there was 226 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: late breaking scientific information about the family genetic UH code. 227 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: Two different groups of researchers found out two different things 228 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: that were really stunning, all at the same time. And 229 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: then finally the big one is that Mimi the mother 230 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: was on board UM for the first time. She was 231 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: not interested for a very long time, but she was 232 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: around ninety now and in very frail health, and everybody 233 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 1: thought it was an hour never And I think the 234 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: scientific breakthroughs were very validating to her. It made her, 235 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: you know, it made her feel comfortable saying this was genetic, 236 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: this wasn't my fault. And so she was fine talking 237 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: to me about about what she wanted to talk about. 238 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: What was toughest for you. I mean, Danny, this is 239 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: going to be a very different I can't even imagine. Yeah, 240 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: And there were a couple of different layers one and 241 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: both of my parents were gone UM. And people have 242 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: sometimes asked me how I think the story might have 243 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: been different if my parents were alive, or if one 244 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: of them had been alive, if my father had still 245 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: been living, there wouldn't be a book. I just wouldn't 246 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: have written it while he was living. UM. He I 247 00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: believe very much. UM wanted this distayed married. It was 248 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: something he was both of my parents were going to 249 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: take to the grave with them and they did. And 250 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: then I remember when Inherent was about to come out, 251 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: and the first piece that was published was in Time magazine, 252 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: and it was a big thing, and there was this 253 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: photograph of my dad and me um on the beach, 254 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: happy like playful, loving photograph. And when the piece came out, 255 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: I had such a pang because I thought, like that 256 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: young father, if he could have had a crystal ball 257 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: and seeing a future where his this secret that I 258 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: think was so deep that he perhaps was even keeping 259 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: it from himself, that that would have been there in 260 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: a magazine that he read, you know, religiously every week, 261 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: there for all the world to see. I was. I 262 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: was just very aware of the that was painful for me, 263 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: but all so felt to me in terms of like, well, 264 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: what right do I have to tell this story? I 265 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: have grappled with that in other books. With Inheritance, I 266 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: never grappled with it, because it literally felt like the 267 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: story of my life, Like this was that I had 268 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: a right to tell it and to explore it and 269 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: to you know, go deeply and as a journalist into 270 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: you know, the his who who were my parents before 271 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: I was born? And what was the world that they 272 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: lived in? But the other piece of it was I 273 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: discovered my biological father and um, he This is not 274 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: a spoiler. I mean he had been an anonymous sperm 275 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: donor as a twenty two year old medical student and 276 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: was very conscious of his privacy, as was I. And 277 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: from the time that he and I started having any 278 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: contact with each other, it was very clear that I 279 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: was going to write a book about this. I mean 280 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: it was it was the book that everything else had 281 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: led to. UM and I was transparent about that with 282 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: my biological father and with his family, that his wife 283 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: and the kids that I was in touch with. But 284 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: when I promised that I would protect his his identity, 285 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: and I worked very hard to protect his identity. When 286 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: I finished the manuscript and before it started going down 287 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 1: the pipeline towards being published, I did something that is 288 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: such a memoir one oh one. You don't do this, 289 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: but I had to, which was I sent it to 290 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: him and I asked him to read it. Really for 291 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: a sense. I wanted to know that he felt that 292 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: that I hadn't missed anything, that there was no little 293 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: tell in there where somebody who really wanted to and 294 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: became obsessed configure out who he was, but I think 295 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: I was also looking for his blessing, which I which 296 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: I received from him. I received an extraordinary long let 297 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: her back from him after he had read it, with 298 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: a list of all the things that he liked, some 299 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 1: of which were things that were very tough in the book, um, 300 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: but really saying I feel that you've been fair. This 301 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: reflects my experience too, and he felt that his identity 302 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: had been protected. So that was that was this piece 303 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: of that process that was very different from me, because 304 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: even with my own mother, when she was living and 305 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: I published earlier memoirs, I did not submit them to 306 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: her for her approval before they came out. I love 307 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 1: the part in your book where you infer I'm sure 308 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: correctly that they've googled you. You know that your your 309 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: your biological father and his family that that that they 310 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: all and I just imagine, you know, with a smile 311 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: and saying, oh my god, she's going to write about this. 312 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: There's no reas not going to write about this. I 313 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: kind of breaks on everything for a little while. Yeah, 314 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: I mean I think initially, when when I think the 315 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: reticence about having any contact with me was like Oprah 316 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: could be lurking in the bushes and jumping out with 317 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: a camera crew. Yeah, I was like, wow, this is great. 318 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: She's a writer. How interesting? Oh this is terrible. She 319 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: writes about her family and identity. And yeah, although I 320 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: had this thought that like that happened, and then they 321 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: started reading you and they were like, oh, but maybe 322 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: this will be wonderful, and maybe this will be just 323 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: the thing. You know, he clearly is one over, like 324 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,719 Speaker 1: he's he understands how everything is so well considered in 325 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: your writing, So he he gets it. Yet yet it's complicated, right, 326 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: because what does it mean to be? And I was 327 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: very aware of this when the book came out. You know, 328 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: he was just about eighty when the book came out, 329 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:57,199 Speaker 1: and this very private person, and it was kind of 330 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: you know, it was kind of hard to miss. He 331 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: would turn on the TV or there would be a 332 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: magazine and these things. I think we're a little intense 333 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: because it was also a story that was in a 334 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 1: way part of his story too. But he was certainly 335 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: choosing anonymity and and I was offering it so on 336 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: a human level. I mean, it's just I mean, he 337 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: and I have spoken about it, but will never speak 338 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: about it publicly. I don't think, but it's just an 339 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: interesting thing to grapple with. And we were all googling 340 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: each other, like, Matt, Meanwhile, your father, like the man 341 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: who brought you up, is is all over inheritance you know. 342 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: He it's dedicated to him, your your relationship with him, 343 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: and your new thoughts on how you how how will 344 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: you relate to him now that you have this news. 345 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: It's something you wrestle with so openly and cogently all 346 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: the way through it really, um, I feel like it 347 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: keeps coming back to him. It's another part that really 348 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: struck me. Thank you. Yeah. And when people ask me 349 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: the dedication page of inheritances is it's books dedicated to 350 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: my father. And I don't specify which father which because 351 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: of course I didn't specify which father. Of course it 352 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 1: should be a parent. That I have one father, I 353 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: have one dad, uh, and that's the dad who raised me. 354 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: But people would bring that up and I'm like, no, 355 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: that's the whole point. Can I just point something out 356 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: you said, of course it would it should be a parent. 357 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: That's no. I mean, it's just one of these weird 358 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: oral accidents. That's not the you know, you were talking 359 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: to This is going to apply to both you, and 360 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: I think it is going to be the final question 361 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: actually before we go on and look at some of 362 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: the audience questions. But um so, Danny, you obviously went 363 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: to extraordinary lens to make sure that you know your 364 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: biological father was comfortable with this, and he's probably had 365 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: some instinctive sense of what you owed him. What do 366 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: you think we owe the people who actually in our 367 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: families who might deceive us, like, what do we owe them? 368 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: It's got to be a question you've wrestled with, and 369 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: I mean, certainly the two youngest sisters had very different 370 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: approaches to what they believed they owe their families. So 371 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: I think i'll I'll leave it on that. I think 372 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: it's And Danny, you also are now you're an aficionado 373 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: of of family secret stories. You've seen You've talked with 374 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: a couple of dozen people now who have been through 375 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: revelations and found new ways to interprelate with their family. 376 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: In the case of the Galvin's um that in the beginning, 377 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: I met the sisters together, and I thought that perhaps 378 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: this would be a story about two sisters who hobbled 379 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: together and made it through a very difficult childhood, that 380 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: they could be some of the people we would root 381 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: for in this story as they grow up. And then 382 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,239 Speaker 1: once I interviewed them separately, I found that they were 383 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: quite different people, that they had had many years of 384 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: closeness and then many years of not so closeness, that 385 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: they had been through very similar traumas as children, but 386 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: had processed them differently. And I was thrown by it 387 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 1: for a moment or two. UM, But then I sat 388 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: up and said, this is this is reality. Different people 389 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: experience their families in different ways. UM. I have a 390 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: you know, a sister and brother who might be watching 391 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: on the zoom. Now, you know, we grew up in 392 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: the same house, but in different houses, you know, and 393 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: we have different memories that may each of which are 394 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 1: probably self serving. And so when the privilege I had 395 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: in writing the Galvin story is to be able to 396 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: write about these um, these women's lives over decades and 397 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: also their brothers, and to see how their perceptions of 398 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: their family change, and how they're the way they decided 399 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: to relate to their family changes. Um. They Lindsay starts 400 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: out wanting to leave UM and never come back. She 401 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: ends up coming back and being the caregiver for her brothers. 402 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: Margaret it grabs her chance to escape the trauma, and 403 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: then feels a certain amount of rejection and ambivalence about 404 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: what happened. She feels a little locked out, and that 405 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: colors her relationship with their family going forward. And and 406 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: she decides once all the secrets spill out, that becomes 407 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: further fuel for her to declare some boundaries and some independence, 408 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: a little like um, like like Tara west Over and educated. 409 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: So I see two different models in the book that 410 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: I was really very pleased to be able to to 411 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 1: portray year by year almost as they moved through their lives. Yeah, 412 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: I was. I was so struck by that. Um by um, 413 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,239 Speaker 1: they're the tracking of their different experiences. And you know, 414 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: like if if you were if you were tracking them 415 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: as a novelist and this word fiction, I think a 416 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: novelist might have come up with a very different response 417 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: in each of those women as adults, and or maybe 418 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: a great novelist would have come up with exactly the 419 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: response that that happened. Um. But you know, one of 420 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: the things in having become um, you know, sort of 421 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: a student of family secrets unexpectedly is that one of 422 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: the things I've learned, especially in the podcast, is that 423 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: when we discover something is at least as important as 424 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: what we discover, like how these things break over the 425 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: course of our lives. I had a moment that really 426 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: took me back as I was researching and reporting and 427 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: processing my own experience, where I thought I had felt 428 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: so betrayed by my parents. UM. Initially, I felt like, 429 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: how could you have kept this a secret? It's such 430 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: a fundamental human right to know if it's possible to know, 431 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: to know where you know, where we come from. And 432 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: and then at some point I realized what would have 433 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: happened to me if I had learned this at sixteen 434 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: or at twenty three? What if my mother had blurted 435 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: it out to me? Um after my father died when 436 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: I mean, that was a time in my life where 437 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: I was a hot mess of a human being, and 438 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: I don't think I would have survived it. Um. I 439 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: found out what I found out at an extremely stable 440 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: time in my life, you know, when in a in 441 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: a in a long time marriage and with a with 442 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: a a child who was already seventeen at the time 443 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: I made this discovery. Um, in a you know, just 444 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: in in midlife, I had a lot of life behind 445 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: me with a very solid foundation, and so I end 446 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: up feeling like I found out at a really miraculous 447 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: moment where there was enough time, still, enough people living 448 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: who I might be able to learn something from. I 449 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: also hear stories from people regularly who are making these 450 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: kinds of discoveries and there in their eighties. What do 451 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: you do with that? Um, you know, with the time 452 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: that's left and what there is to process. So I 453 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: think it has I think it has a lot to 454 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 1: do with the with the with the wind, and and 455 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: not only with the with the what. I'm also reminded 456 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 1: of something you said in your book Anywhere. You said 457 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: that sometimes family secrets are um, they're kept out of love. 458 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break here for a 459 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor. I'm going to go into m 460 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: Q and a function here. What does Bob believe is 461 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: the biggest obstacle to progress in the treatment of schizophrenia. Well, 462 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: there's been some strides in early intervention and a little 463 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: bit of the stigma has gone now so that families 464 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: aren't blamed for the disease. UM. There's family support now 465 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: if you're lucky enough to have good health care. Um 466 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: so those have improved, but for a variety of reasons, 467 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: it's just, um, there's been very little movement on the 468 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: pharmaceutical front. I mean I came up in and we 469 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: all did, in an era where when I when you 470 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: think about mental illness, I thought of it as a 471 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: brain chemistry issue, and that the idea was to through 472 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: hard work and trial and error, in the right therapist 473 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: and psychopharmacologist, you'd find the right pill that would perhaps 474 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: help you become more functional. And that might be true 475 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: for things like anxiety or depression. But um, but schizophrenia 476 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: is still working with the same basic drugs that the 477 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: Galvin family were treated with back in the late sixties 478 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: and early seventies, and that part is hard, and there 479 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: are a lot of reasons for that. One is um Uh, 480 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: some disappointing outcomes from the Human Genome Project. Instead of 481 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: finding one big genetic issue that could be zapped with 482 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: the drug, they've found more than a hundred potential variants 483 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: that all have very limited effects size. So it's hard 484 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: to know what gene to zap with a pharmaceutical drug. 485 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: And then also you can't really test it on mice, 486 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: you have to test it on humans, and that's risky 487 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: and expensive. And then finally, the constituency can't really advocate 488 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: for themselves the same way that people with cancer can, 489 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,479 Speaker 1: for instance, and so that things are sluggish and all 490 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: those fronts. I just found one for Danny that I 491 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: think is really kind of great. UM. What questions would 492 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: you ask your father and mother, knowing what you do now? 493 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: I would ask how conscious they were of UM, what 494 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: they were signing on for what they were doing in UM, 495 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: in going to an institute and and using donor sperm UM. 496 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by that time in reproductive medicine, where so 497 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: many people who wanted to be parents were deceived, though 498 00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: often with the best of intentions. Bye bye the doctors 499 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: that they went to see, who really believed it would 500 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: be best if they forgot it ever happened. I wonder 501 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: how closely they kept that knowledge in their consciousness. In 502 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: Family Secrets, the tagline of every episode is the secrets 503 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 504 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. I wonder which 505 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: of those categories my parents fell into and what that 506 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: meant for the three of us. What that meant for 507 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: the way that we interacted with each other during my childhood. Yes, 508 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: so last would like to know Hi, Robert, thanks so 509 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: much for your amazing word giant passing around to other 510 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: psychiatry residents. What you wanted to know was how did 511 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: the Galvins react. What was the response? Well, there came 512 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: a point a couple of months before the book came 513 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 1: out when People magazine wanted to write a feature about 514 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: the family and to put a small excerpt in it, 515 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: And so I was I was getting on the phone 516 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: with the mall saying, hey, can you meet a reporter 517 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: and and I That's that's when I said to myself, 518 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: you know, I can't ask them to take time out 519 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: of their day and to do all of this with 520 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: with the book they haven't even read. So a couple 521 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: of months before it came out, I did send advanced 522 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: copies to them, and I think that there was first 523 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: there was in general, there was relief that I delivered 524 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: what I said I would, which is something that that 525 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: dealt with the tender and sensitive issues of their family, 526 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: of the family secrets in a way that wasn't like 527 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: rubber necking that that was tasteful, and that was really 528 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: about the possible good that the family could do. And 529 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: then there were individual difficulties that some of them had 530 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: with placement. You know, this was a group portrait of 531 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: a family with some people foregrounded and some people backgrounded. 532 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: You know, I was here too at that dinner. Why 533 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: why wasn't I, you know, why didn't you talk to 534 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: Why aren't my thoughts and feelings about that in there? 535 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: And so I think that that is the inherent difficulty 536 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: with journalism in general, but also with with intimately reported 537 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: narrative journalism, that that the reporter ends up being the 538 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: one who makes the calls and and they they we're 539 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: kind enough to give up that control to someone and 540 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: trust in them. But then something amazing happened, which is 541 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: Oprah's Book Club, and and that kind of set everyone's 542 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: mind at ease in the family about how this book 543 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: would be received in the world. The last thing they 544 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: wanted was for it to be something toddry or something 545 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: that would be kind of like a grizzly gross book. 546 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: And so as soon as Oprah's Book Club accepted the 547 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: book and started to flag the book, everyone including myself, 548 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: we also kind of you know how to cigh of relief, 549 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: saying we know, we know that that it will be 550 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: seen as a product with goodwill and that was important. 551 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: Did it alter their dynamics at all? I'm just curious. 552 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it gave them jet fuel to 553 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: do the things that they always wanted to do. Lindsay 554 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: the youngest is now a very active advocate for rights 555 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: for the mentally ill, for advocating for families who are 556 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: dealing with acutely mentally ill family members. She's joined the 557 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: boards of two different organizations and she's looking to join 558 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: a third. She's very active. And then Margaret has doubled 559 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: down on her artwork, has pulled away for now from 560 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: her regular family and is and is you know, sort 561 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: of come close to her immediate family and her chosen family, 562 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: and she is counseling people on how to move through 563 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: trauma and there in her own one on one way. Um, 564 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: these are things that I think they were on their 565 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: way to doing, if you've read to the end of 566 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: the book. These are things they've wanted to do for 567 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: a while, but but the book has sort of given 568 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: them permission to do it. It's done. I hope I'd 569 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: like to think on a good day that it's done. 570 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: That that thing that Bessel Vanderkolt talked about, that it's about, 571 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: it's it's written, the thing that they couldn't right themselves 572 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: so that they can feel that the story is somewhat 573 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: complete and they can go to the next chapter and 574 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: Bob isn't isn't there the next generation? Um, the grandchildren? Who? 575 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: I mean, that was one of the things that when 576 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: I said, your book maybe cry, that's that that was 577 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: I can identify that as a place where it really 578 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: it really did. I I the idea that this is. 579 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things about family secrets is 580 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: when you can actually own your story, you know, you 581 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: own the whole thing, in all of its messiness and 582 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: all of its complexity. And that was something that and 583 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: you can't do that when it's a secret. When it's secret, 584 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: all it is is toxic poison, leaking over everything and 585 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: creating all sorts of behaviors in ways that people can't 586 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: you know, they don't even know why they're behaving in 587 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: a way that they are. And so the fact that 588 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: this was so in the open ultimately in this family 589 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: is also it would seem to me what allowed those 590 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: grandchildren to um start owning it as well. Yes, but 591 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: I hope I also hit it, hit it some of 592 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: the mixed blessing of that that Lindsay was so interested 593 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: in not hiding things, so interested in transparency. I wanted 594 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: her children to know so much that they ended up 595 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: assuming some of the burdens she carried and felt a 596 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: little scarred themselves. So I was, you know, it never 597 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: gets simple. It might get better, but it definitely it 598 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: doesn't get wrapped up in a bow. Although there was 599 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: a very lovely little moment at the end with with 600 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: Lindsay's daughter that I won't reveal here before I go 601 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 1: to Danny, know that reminds me of a question that 602 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: I didn't ask you. But that has to do with 603 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: the idea of at any given time, I think when 604 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: people are keeping secrets. Um, Danny, you actually cautioned against this. 605 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 1: You said, we shouldn't fall, we shouldn't be guilty of 606 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,720 Speaker 1: present is. Um, we shouldn't hold people in the past 607 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: accountable to present day standards of moral and ethical behavior 608 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: because they were probably doing the best they can and 609 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: they were doing as they were counseled. So the Galvin's 610 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: may have been you know, uh, sort of behaving the 611 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,399 Speaker 1: way they we thought they were supposed to behave. Your 612 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: parents probably thought it was in your interest to keep 613 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: this stuff a secret. I'm very interested in how and 614 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: you both wrote with tremendous compassion about your respective families, 615 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 1: one that you were reporting on, one that was your own. 616 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: How did you manage to drum out that kind of compassion? 617 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: Were their previous versions where you were kind of angrier 618 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: Danny and you kind of had to hit select all delete, 619 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: And but you know, Bob, where there, you know, moments 620 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: where you held out the matriarch Mimi was with more 621 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: contempt and then kind of toned it back. Just curious 622 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: because transparency, of course now seems like the right and 623 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,879 Speaker 1: ethical thing to do, but as Bob was pointing out, 624 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 1: that can also backfire. We don't know, if you know, 625 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,760 Speaker 1: obviously when you want to earn the side of sharing. 626 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: I mean, transparency is good, but it can have its 627 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 1: you know, too much could also be harmful. So I'm 628 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: just curious. Yeah, I mean for me, Yeah, I did 629 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: hit control whatever that thing is two pages because um, 630 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:14,720 Speaker 1: I didn't yet have the necessary distance. You know, there's 631 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: a very very slight but very very necessary distance between 632 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: myself and the story as I was telling it. And 633 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: I think one of the gifts of of of of 634 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: writing the book is that I developed more and more, 635 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: ever deepening compassion for both of my parents as I 636 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: was writing it, because my reporting was leading me to 637 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: these places where I I understood what it must have 638 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: been to be um an infertile, childless couple in the 639 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: early nineteen sixties, and in their milieu and the and 640 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: the the shame and the you know, the distress of that. 641 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: It just it felt it must have felt to them 642 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: like the absolute end of the world old and so 643 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: when you were faced with the absolute end of the world, 644 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: you know, you you you, you take desperate measures. And 645 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: I'm sure this felt like a desperate measure to them. 646 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: But the gift was and I think I do I 647 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: do write this in the book. We don't often have 648 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: the need or um the desire or the circumstances two 649 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,800 Speaker 1: really be able to empathetically imagine our parents as people 650 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: aside from being our parents who they were before us. 651 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:38,879 Speaker 1: We just don't do it. There are parents and that's 652 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: just not something that's not a place where we go. 653 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,799 Speaker 1: And I had to go there in order to be 654 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: able to walk with them, like walk that walk with 655 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: them through that process, and that was that was a 656 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: great gift the here. I think there's a lot of 657 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 1: parallels with with the part of the work that I 658 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: was doing to try to discover the law lives of 659 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: Mimi and her husband Don, the parents in the book, 660 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 1: because there was archival work and there were interviews, and 661 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:13,720 Speaker 1: then there was you know, really really um deep speculation 662 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: about what their challenges might have been, and then interrogating 663 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: those speculations to try to report them out. Um the mother, 664 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: Mimi was still around as I was reporting. She she 665 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 1: died in the middle of my work, but the father 666 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: had died close to twenty years earlier. Many of the 667 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 1: children started out in my early conversations, had many critical 668 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,799 Speaker 1: things to say about their mother. She was in a 669 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: lot of denial. She preferred the sick children to the 670 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: well ones. She put us in harm's way. But um, 671 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 1: I was on high alert at that time because I 672 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: feel like mothers get a really raw deal in nonfiction 673 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: and in fiction when you write about families, and I 674 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 1: didn't want to necessarily run to her as a scapegoat. 675 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: And sure enough, the more I talked with everyone the 676 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: more I saw that over time and they understood the 677 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: subtleties of what she was dealing with. And also she 678 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: was the one who was dealing with it. The father 679 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,800 Speaker 1: who everyone had put on a pedestal, actually wasn't so great. 680 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: And Mimi, who had her hands dirty, making lots and 681 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 1: lots of decisions, some of them bad, some of them good. 682 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: You know, she wasn't so bad. And I wanted to 683 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: to get it that ambiguity and also avoid the present 684 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,760 Speaker 1: is m I mean that the options this family had, 685 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 1: like the options your parents had, were very, very narrow, 686 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: and the stigma that your parents were dealing with, and 687 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: that this family we're dealing with, we're you know, considerable. 688 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: We'll be right back, Danny. I like to question that 689 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: I saw here for you, which is um from Tom 690 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,879 Speaker 1: did Inheritance, which which solves the secret make you look 691 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 1: at your earlier books any differently? Oh that's a great question. 692 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: I know, yeah, it's really a good gues Well, first 693 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 1: of all, it made me revisit them, which you know, 694 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,840 Speaker 1: you really don't necessarily want to revisit a first novel 695 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: that you wrote, you know, it's but I did not 696 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 1: for the fainthearted and what I feel reading my earlier work. 697 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: I wondered at first whether inheritance would render all of 698 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 1: my earlier work moot in some way, Like you know, 699 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: I had that kind of strange fear of what are 700 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: those books now somehow inauthentic because I didn't know um. 701 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: And I wrote a great deal about my father, a 702 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,760 Speaker 1: great deal about my parents, a great deal about secrets, 703 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 1: but I was missing this essential piece. I actually end 704 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: up feeling like not all of them, I mean, not 705 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: the early novels, but they're more interesting to me now 706 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: in a certain way, because every book is I mean, 707 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: certainly memoirs most of all, is like holding time still 708 00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: within the covers of a book. This is this is 709 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: all I know. Now it's going into this this story. 710 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,360 Speaker 1: And I've always known that, which is why I've written 711 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 1: multiple memoirs. But now I look back and I think, wow, 712 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 1: that really is all I knew in two thousand and ten, 713 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 1: and that was all I knew and so forth, and 714 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,919 Speaker 1: so it actually makes for a really interesting um kind 715 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 1: of body of work. Someday I may try to do 716 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,840 Speaker 1: something with that, like annotate them, or like, just because 717 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: there is this this past summer, I recorded the audiobook 718 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 1: of Slow Motion, which is my first memoir that came out. 719 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 1: It's never been an audiobook, so I I was recording 720 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: it and I had to stop so many times in 721 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: the studio, just stunned by a sentence that I just read, 722 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: realizing how much I knew, how much subconsciously was right there. 723 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 1: So that's thrilling in a way. They don't feel like 724 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:04,880 Speaker 1: like I was mistaken. They just feel like that's what 725 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,359 Speaker 1: I knew then, and this is what I know now. 726 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: If you wrote an essay about that, I just want 727 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: to say I'd be here for that. I would read it. No, 728 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 1: really like just reviewing what the things that sort of 729 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 1: jump off the page, like crickets now that sort of 730 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: tell you that you were dropping yourself clues. And if 731 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 1: you annotated an early book, to have it on audio 732 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:29,880 Speaker 1: would be fun too. Hey hold the phone. Wait, whoa, 733 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: we need two narrators. I was just gonna say they 734 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:37,359 Speaker 1: had the anxiety Danny narrator translator, Like you can peel 735 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 1: like I'm not doing the right but you know what 736 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 1: I mean. Oh, this is nice, Robert. When I read 737 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,320 Speaker 1: a book like yours, I always think about Janet Malcolm's 738 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,239 Speaker 1: assertion that journalism is always an act of betrayal. Did 739 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,760 Speaker 1: you ever have a moment of doubting what you were doing? 740 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 1: Did it affect your decisions and you were writing as 741 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: you were writing or in writing? There there is a 742 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,560 Speaker 1: question of who are you working for? Right? And I 743 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,359 Speaker 1: very specifically, I am not an advocacy journalist. Journalist I 744 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 1: write books that are The reviewers seem to use the 745 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,359 Speaker 1: word empathy a lot, but I find my the way 746 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,239 Speaker 1: I look at it, the word empathy is, you know, 747 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,719 Speaker 1: a certain amount of intimacy and the ability to walk 748 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,000 Speaker 1: in someone's shoes. But that's different from advocacy. And and 749 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 1: I'm right up against the line the entire time. So 750 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,800 Speaker 1: I kind of live in that, in that Janet Malcolm 751 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 1: world where where some people might wonder, am I going 752 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: to be betrayed by you? And and I never make 753 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 1: that promise that I will never betray them, because I am, 754 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: after all, independent, and I am not working for them. 755 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 1: And so that's tough. It's a tough thing to do, 756 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: and and it often means that some people were just 757 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 1: going to say no, They're not going to do it, 758 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,000 Speaker 1: And and and moments when I like to laugh at myself. 759 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 1: I think like journalists are like vampires, Like they only 760 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,000 Speaker 1: come where they're invited in, Like they can't just barge 761 00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 1: into the house. Someone actually has to let them in 762 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,840 Speaker 1: and u and And that's why I was so tentative 763 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,200 Speaker 1: with this family. I said, let's take let's take months. 764 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 1: Let's let me get on the phone once a week 765 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,319 Speaker 1: with a different member of the family and speak in 766 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,359 Speaker 1: an open ended way about what you might expect from 767 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: a book like this, and we'll all know one way 768 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,719 Speaker 1: or another. At the end of ten weeks, you know 769 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: whether this is possible or not. And if it is impossible, 770 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,880 Speaker 1: I'll move on and do something else. And you have 771 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 1: to be ready to walk away that way, Danny, I'm 772 00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,359 Speaker 1: gonna end it. I think we have two minutes, so 773 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 1: I'm gonna end it with you. I'm going to take 774 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,759 Speaker 1: the liberty of summarizing a number of the questions here, 775 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,759 Speaker 1: which are kind of more comments than questions, but there's 776 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:39,759 Speaker 1: a theme running through them. A lot of people are 777 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 1: saying I was conceived by a sperm donor, or I 778 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,560 Speaker 1: do know anything about sperm donation laws in Georgia in 779 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, all sorts of like very specific things, 780 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,839 Speaker 1: and I'm wondering how much you've become I can ask 781 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 1: both of you this question and you know, but how 782 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,759 Speaker 1: much you've become people's confessors. It's an awesome responsibility to 783 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 1: take done and maybe, um, what kind of repository of 784 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,239 Speaker 1: information you have become in? You know, what kind of 785 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,920 Speaker 1: function you serve for people now? In this way? I mean, 786 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,400 Speaker 1: I couldn't have imagined what happened when when when this 787 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,239 Speaker 1: book came out, and and it happened from day one, 788 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,239 Speaker 1: from the very first event that I did, where I 789 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,759 Speaker 1: looked around the room and I thought, who is everybody here? 790 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,839 Speaker 1: This is not my usual literary demographic. There were old men, 791 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 1: and there were middle aged couples, and there were young people, 792 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,360 Speaker 1: and the people crying before I even opened my mouth. Um, 793 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:36,200 Speaker 1: this period of time that we're in regarding people discovering 794 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,320 Speaker 1: everything that we're discovering because of the one to punch 795 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:46,839 Speaker 1: of easy accessible DNA testing plus the Internet has meant 796 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,879 Speaker 1: that there's there's a huge number of people who are 797 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,759 Speaker 1: trying to navigate all of these questions. Can I find 798 00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 1: anything out? What are the laws? Do I have any rights? 799 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:05,200 Speaker 1: And yes, I mean I feel very much activated you know, 800 00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:09,160 Speaker 1: like like I began two years ago feeling like I 801 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,520 Speaker 1: would never really become polemical about this, and I would 802 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,359 Speaker 1: stay on the literary side of things. But I do 803 00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:20,239 Speaker 1: and have become somewhat polemical about the state of the 804 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:24,320 Speaker 1: secrecy and the lack of regulation in this country. Um, 805 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,879 Speaker 1: which I can't get into in two minutes, but it's 806 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:31,600 Speaker 1: just stunning the way that we are not like sort 807 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:36,120 Speaker 1: of prepared for this reckoning that we're in. I mean, 808 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to have to leave it at that, but um, 809 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,560 Speaker 1: but I will say to everyone who's listening, who is 810 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,760 Speaker 1: grappling with these kinds of issues, you know this, I'm sure, 811 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:47,680 Speaker 1: but you are far from alone. And there are a 812 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,200 Speaker 1: lot of there are a lot a lot of resources 813 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:58,680 Speaker 1: and and and more more every day. We'll be back 814 00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:08,440 Speaker 1: with season five Family Secrets, beginning April one.