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Speaker 1: Beetles and fungi are decimating trees in Seattle. Do any

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Speaker 1: other invertebrates ride fungi into battle?

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Speaker 2: How can the Ambi polar field ignore Earth's magnetic might?

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Speaker 2: And why is it stronger on Venus? Could it grow

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Speaker 2: here one night?

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Speaker 3: Is it true that stress can turn your hair gray?

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Speaker 3: My world is kind of a dumpster fire right now,

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Speaker 3: so I'd prefer if it didn't.

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Speaker 2: Okay, whatever questions keep you up at night, Daniel and

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Speaker 2: Kelly's answers will make it all right.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe, Another Listener

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Speaker 1: Questions episode.

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Speaker 3: We've done twenty nine of these.

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Speaker 2: You know, we haven't actually done twenty nine of these.

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Speaker 2: This is the twenty ninth.

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Speaker 3: We're doing the twenty ninth of these.

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Speaker 2: All right, So my question for you today, County is

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Speaker 2: when did you start to go gray?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Man, gosh, A long time ago.

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Speaker 1: I started getting a few random grays towards like the

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Speaker 1: end of undergrad, I think, and then in grad school

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Speaker 1: it started speeding up. My mom started going gray at eighteen, wow,

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Speaker 1: And so I kind of anticipated it would happen, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize that I was really starting to go

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Speaker 1: gray until a friend of mine told me that I

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Speaker 1: was quote rocking the salt and pepper look, and I

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Speaker 1: gave him the stink eye because I thought of myself

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Speaker 1: as someone who had a few stray grays and I hadn't.

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Speaker 3: Realized I had transitioned to salt and pepper.

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Speaker 1: But it was very nice, and so I anyway, I

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Speaker 1: have transitioned to salt and pepper, apparently. And what about you,

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Speaker 1: I can't You've got You've got some grays, right, It's

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Speaker 1: hard to tell on the riverside camera.

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Speaker 2: I think I might have one or two gray beard hairs.

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Speaker 3: Daniel. That's not fair, I know.

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Speaker 2: But I think I'm still pretty much all original color

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Speaker 2: up top.

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Speaker 3: So wow, congratulations Daniel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there's some mythology in my family. My grandparents

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Speaker 2: on my dad's side both had jet black hair into

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Speaker 2: their eighties.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: But there's a discussion in the family about whether or

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Speaker 2: not they died it. Oh, And some people are like, oh,

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Speaker 2: of course they died it. How naive are you to

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Speaker 2: believe that an eighty year old had black hair? And

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Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe they did, who knows. I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to exhume their body and do.

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Speaker 5: Some tests scandalous, but so far.

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Speaker 2: In my personal experiment, no, gray's up top.

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Speaker 3: Yeah cool. I don't know. I don't really.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't keep me up at night that I have

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Speaker 1: gray hairs, like you know. I yes, I was a

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Speaker 1: little surprised, but mostly it's just because I'm not very

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Speaker 1: self aware. But at the end of the day, like

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Speaker 1: I don't care enough to diet or anything like that,

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Speaker 1: I'm not losing sleep.

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Speaker 2: And what comes after salt and pepper, before you're fully

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Speaker 2: silver haired? Is there another stage there?

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Speaker 3: I don't think so.

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Speaker 2: So once you're past salt and pepper, you're just all in.

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Speaker 1: I think then you're at silverfox ooh.

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Speaker 2: And then you go white and then you're Gandolf. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I look forward to becoming Gandolf. I'll get there. The

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Speaker 3: white Wizard.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing is people are like, oh, you

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Speaker 2: haven't turned gray yet, But I think gray adds gravitas.

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Speaker 2: It's nice for people to think you're younger than you are,

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Speaker 2: but then it also makes them take you less seriously sometimes. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but something that I do want to take very seriously

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Speaker 2: are the questions in the minds of our listeners. Because

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Speaker 2: our goal is to give you a tour of everything

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Speaker 2: that's extraordinary in the universe, but not just the things

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Speaker 2: that we find extraordinary, the mysteries that tackle your minds.

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Speaker 2: So if you have questions about how the universe works,

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Speaker 2: please write to us two questions at danieland Kelly dot org.

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Speaker 2: Today's questions were taken directly from those.

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Speaker 1: Messages, and you'll see that Daniel wasn't just gloating at

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Speaker 1: the beginning of today's episode, although that might have been

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Speaker 1: part of it. We did get a question about graying

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Speaker 1: hair towards the end.

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Speaker 2: Bumble.

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Speaker 3: No, that was just bragging, just straight bragging. There was

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Speaker 3: nothing humble in there.

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Speaker 1: So all right, so let's move on to question one

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Speaker 1: from Eric, and let's go ahead and hear that question.

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Speaker 3: Now, hey, they're extraordinaries.

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Speaker 1: Eric and I had some technical difficulties, so I'm going

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Speaker 1: to go ahead and read his question and rest assured

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Speaker 1: the answer has already been shared with Eric. The question

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Speaker 1: is regarding the spruce bark beetle in Alaska and their

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Speaker 1: relationship with fungus. I understand that they're born with the

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Speaker 1: fungus which is parasitic to spruce trees, which knocks back

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Speaker 1: the immune response of the trees to resist the beetle.

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Speaker 1: The Beatles are a delivery mechanism for the fungus. Is

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Speaker 1: this relationship unique to beetles?

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Speaker 2: So he spells beatle b e a t l E.

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Speaker 2: Is he talking about the insect or the rock band.

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Speaker 1: I am going to go ahead and assume that that

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Speaker 1: was an auto correct because when I was going ahead

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Speaker 1: and taking notes a couple times, my phone and Google

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Speaker 1: Docs auto corrected to the band spelling. I guess the

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Speaker 1: band is much more popular than the invertebrates.

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Speaker 2: Well, but there are more kinds of beatles the invertebrates

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Speaker 2: than beatles the singers.

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Speaker 1: Right, So yep, yep, many many, Yes, there's I think

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Speaker 1: you know, there's probably something like six thousand bark beetles species,

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Speaker 1: and there's yeah, far fewer Beatle members.

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Speaker 2: And you're not prepared to answer the question if the

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Speaker 2: context were rock musicians.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that's right.

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Speaker 1: Although I did just listen to the Rest is History

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Speaker 1: did a few series on the Beatles, but no, I'm

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Speaker 1: probably not prepared for a whole Beatles episode.

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Speaker 2: All right, So tell us about the bark beetles and

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Speaker 2: the relationship with spruce trees.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so there's a lot of different species of bark beetles,

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Speaker 1: and some of them kill tree and recently there have

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Speaker 1: been some mass tree dieoffs as a result of bark beetles.

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Speaker 5: They're so sad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But so you know, a lot of the beetles

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Speaker 1: that are causing these die offs are native, which I

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Speaker 1: think makes the story a little complicated. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: in Alaska, you have this spruce beetle. It's native and

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Speaker 1: usually it goes after unhealthy trees, and when its population

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Speaker 1: numbers are pretty low, it doesn't cause a lot of trouble,

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Speaker 1: Like it takes trees that were already kind of on

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Speaker 1: the way out, maybe hastens their demise a bit, but

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Speaker 1: that's not a big deal.

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Speaker 2: Do you mean it goes after the ones that are unhealthy,

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Speaker 2: like it knows or that it just has success against those?

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Speaker 3: Oh good question.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's specifically going after the unhealthy

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Speaker 1: ones or if it just is better at the unhealthy ones.

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Speaker 1: Because trees do have something like an immune system defense,

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Speaker 1: and as we're going to discuss in a moment here,

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Speaker 1: the beetles have a fungus that helps them with that

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Speaker 1: immune system defense. Amazing, Yeah, but it could be so

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Speaker 1: you know, the beatles. I don't think they're like randomly

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Speaker 1: blithely going about their life if not making any decisions.

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Speaker 1: I think they probably can to some extent tell if

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Speaker 1: they are near a tree that is going to be

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Speaker 1: easier or less easy to invade, And so probably they're

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Speaker 1: they're searching for the unhealthy ones that they'll have an

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Speaker 1: easier chance with. But at high population numbers, though, some

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Speaker 1: of those unhealthy ones might get crowded and they get

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Speaker 1: pushed out to healthy ones. Let's say that's what's happening, right,

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Speaker 1: And so when they get to really high population densities

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Speaker 1: and there's loads of these beetles all over the place,

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Speaker 1: they start killing the healthy trees too.

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Speaker 3: And so, for example, there's been.

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Speaker 1: An outbreak of these beetles in Alaska and something like

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Speaker 1: one point six million acres have been impacted, and that

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Speaker 1: means a bunch of yeah, many, many, many of these

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Speaker 1: native trees, native spruce trees have been killed in Alaska.

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Speaker 1: And there's another outbreak of the Eurasian spruce bark beetle

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Speaker 1: that's happening right now in Europe and it's decimating the

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Speaker 1: conifer forests. And so you know, as I mentioned, a

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Speaker 1: lot of these beetles are native, and so the question is,

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Speaker 1: you know, like I think a lot of us are

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Speaker 1: bummed out because we like forests.

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Speaker 5: And we like trees and living trees.

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Speaker 1: Living trees, right, and the idea that beetles are killing

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Speaker 1: a bunch of trees stinks. But I guess the question

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Speaker 1: is is this a natural process or not? So, you know,

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Speaker 1: when a bunch of trees die, they fall, and that

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Speaker 1: clears forest floor to suddenly get sunlight that wasn't getting

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Speaker 1: sunlight before because the trees were blocking it.

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Speaker 3: And now you can.

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Speaker 1: Get flowers and pollinators, and this is sort of how

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Speaker 1: ecosystems turn over. Ecosystems are not usually stagnant, and so

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Speaker 1: I guess the interesting question to me is is this

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Speaker 1: like a two hundred year cycle and we just kind

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Speaker 1: of weren't taking notes before and we're just seeing something

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Speaker 1: that naturally would have happened. Or would the two hundred

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Speaker 1: year cycle have included maybe like one hectare of trees

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Speaker 1: dying but because of global climate change or because we've

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Speaker 1: managed forests in a way that you know has made

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Speaker 1: more trees unhealthy, is it just way more intense than

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Speaker 1: it's ever in the past, in which case, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe we care now because we have made this problem

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Speaker 1: much worse than it would have been.

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Speaker 2: Does that make sense, Yeah, But I had the impression

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Speaker 2: that some forests were truly ancient. You know that forests

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Speaker 2: can be fairly stable. If the climate is stable, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: then trees can grow for hundreds or thousands of years.

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Speaker 2: So it's not like there's a two hundred year cycle

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Speaker 2: where all the trees in the forest die and then

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Speaker 2: get replaced. And that's just what we're seeing, right. It

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Speaker 2: feels like we're seeing a shift in the capacity for

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Speaker 2: forests to exist. Right out here in the West, we

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Speaker 2: see lots and lots of dead trees on hillsides, and

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Speaker 2: it feels like, maybe you we're seeing the ends of forests.

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Speaker 1: Well, so, first of all, when I said two hundred,

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Speaker 1: I probably should have said x because I was just

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Speaker 1: picking a number. But so I was listening to Indefensive Plants,

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Speaker 1: which is a great plant podcast, and they had a

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Speaker 1: guy on there who studies bark beetles, and he was

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Speaker 1: saying that, like, you know, we really don't know if

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Speaker 1: this is a natural cycle or if it's something that's

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Speaker 1: getting much worse and we do think that probably it

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Speaker 1: is a problem that has gotten much worse. But for

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Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff, we don't have great data. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because if X is a thousand and it's like a

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Speaker 1: thousand year cycle, we probably wouldn't have great data on that.

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Speaker 1: Maybe every one thousand years, you do expect to see

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Speaker 1: all the trees on the hillside's dead and then the

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Speaker 1: cycle starts again or something. But it wouldn't surprise me

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Speaker 1: to hear that we have made this problem worse through

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Speaker 1: global climate change and exacerbating drought and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: But let's get back to the beetles in the fungus.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so what are the beatles doing to the trees

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Speaker 2: and how does the fungus help?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so the beatles arrive at a tree and they

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Speaker 1: like you know, for example, they might go under the

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Speaker 1: bark and the adults might move around under the bark.

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Speaker 1: And when they do that, they introduce a fungus. And

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Speaker 1: this fungus the only way it can get from like

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Speaker 1: tree to tree is it travels with the beetles, and

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Speaker 1: so that's how the beetles benefit the fungus.

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Speaker 3: So then the fungus.

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Speaker 1: Infects the tree and it does a couple different things

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Speaker 1: for the beetles. One of the things that it does

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Speaker 1: is that the tree has a bunch of chemical defenses

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Speaker 1: that it would use to make the beetles sick and

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Speaker 1: kill them. And the fungus takes those chemicals that the

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Speaker 1: tree was using to defend itself and it neutralizes those chemicals,

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Speaker 1: so the tree is no longer toxic.

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Speaker 3: To the beetles. Amazing, totally agree. Yeah, it's crazy.

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Speaker 1: And now instead the beetle is starting to convert stuff

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Speaker 1: in the tree to stuff that's nutritious for the beetles.

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Speaker 1: So now it's easier for the beetles to get nutrition

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Speaker 1: from the tree. The beetles aren't getting attacked by the tree.

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Speaker 1: In some cases, the beetles are actually converting some of

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Speaker 1: the things that the tree makes into pheromones to attract

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Speaker 1: more beetles to the tree. Wow, I know, it's crazy.

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Speaker 1: And so then the beetles lay their eggs in the tree.

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Speaker 1: And you know, if you've worked with like trees before,

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Speaker 1: maybe sometimes you've pulled a piece of bark off and

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Speaker 1: underneath you've seen all of these sort of like almost

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Speaker 1: random lines that chriss cross over each other. Those are

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Speaker 1: the paths of like little baby beetles that have hatched

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Speaker 1: and sort of moved around, and it's like the path

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Speaker 1: of the food that they ate and the movements that

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Speaker 1: they made.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like these little tunnels that they've dug through underneath

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Speaker 2: the bark. Yeah, it's very cool to see.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're called galleries, and I do feel like they're

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Speaker 1: little works of art, Like I love that name for them.

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Speaker 1: And so anyway, this reproduction keeps happening, and with this

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Speaker 1: collaboration between the beetle and the fungus, the beetles are

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Speaker 1: able to overwhelm the tree's defenses and they can kill

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Speaker 1: the tree that way.

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Speaker 2: And is this something that happens to trees worldwide? This

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Speaker 2: must be a common pattern between beetles and trees. I

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Speaker 2: remember seeing these kinds of patterns on the back of

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Speaker 2: bark of like Ponderosa pines in New Mexico, for example.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so lots of trees have bark beetles, like at

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Speaker 1: least one bark beetles species. Sometimes you can find more

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Speaker 1: than one beetle species living in different parts of trees.

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Speaker 3: Not all of them are super bad for the tree.

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Speaker 1: And again, a lot of times it depends on how

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Speaker 1: many beetles there are, how bad the condition of the

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Speaker 1: tree is. But yeah, you can find these almost all

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Speaker 1: over the world. It seems to particularly be a problem

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Speaker 1: for like spruces and pines and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Is it ever good for the tree? Are they doing

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Speaker 2: anything that's helpful.

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Speaker 1: I didn't come across examples of that in my reading.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it doesn't mean it's not out there. I

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Speaker 1: didn't read every paper on bark beetles, as you can imagine,

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Speaker 1: with over six thousand species, there's a lot of papers

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Speaker 1: out there.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know why, but I feel my self

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Speaker 2: rooting for the trees. I mean, I'm not the lorax

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Speaker 2: or anything, and beetles have just as much a right

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Speaker 2: to live and to eat as trees do. But it

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Speaker 2: feels like, you know, the trees have this grandeur and

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Speaker 2: they're supposed to be there, and the beetles are invading whatever.

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Speaker 2: So give me a more ecological viewpoint on this. Why

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Speaker 2: should I not be attached to the trees or should I?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you could argue either way. Like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm attached to the trees, and when the trees die,

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Speaker 1: then the like you know, the woodpeckers that we're living

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Speaker 1: in there, don't have a home anymore, and like all

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Speaker 1: of the other organisms that depended on those trees are

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Speaker 1: in trouble. Yeah, you know, I think it makes sense

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Speaker 1: that we get sort of emotionally attached to those forests

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Speaker 1: and all the organisms that live in there. But you know,

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Speaker 1: the only constant and life is change, and ecosystems do

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Speaker 1: pretty regularly turn from one thing to another, and so

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Speaker 1: you know, expecting a system to stay exactly the same

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Speaker 1: can cause problems. So, like one problem that humans have

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Speaker 1: caused is we've tried to suppress fires because we thought, well,

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Speaker 1: fires are bad, but now we've let fuels build up

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Speaker 1: over time, and now there's tons of fuel and so

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Speaker 1: when you do get a fire, it burns extra super

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Speaker 1: hot and it kills everything, whereas before there were some

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Speaker 1: species that would have survived a fire that didn't burn

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Speaker 1: quite as hot. And so, you know, we kind of

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Speaker 1: mess things up when we tinker with it. So the

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Speaker 1: question is should we tinker with this spark beetle situation?

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Speaker 1: And can we tinker with this bark beetle situation? Like

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Speaker 1: what could you even do? They're living under the bark,

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Speaker 1: and like, you know, what can you do that would

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Speaker 1: target the beetles or their fungus without messing with the

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Speaker 1: rest of the ecosystem.

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Speaker 3: Like, it's a really tough problem.

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Speaker 1: And I don't want to make it sound like I'm

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Speaker 1: saying we should throw up our arms and not do

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Speaker 1: anything ever, but just that, you know, these are complicated

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Speaker 1: problems that you need to think about from multiple angles.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I definitely have emotional connections to some parts

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Speaker 2: of the ecosystem, you know, like anything that threatens my

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Speaker 2: children for example. Oh yeah, you know, I'm not just

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Speaker 2: going to be like that it's in the way of

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Speaker 2: coyotes to tear out the throats of my children. Like,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm definitely stepping in there and doing something wild.

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Speaker 1: Note that that one. We got an email from PETA

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Speaker 1: encouraging us to think about things from the animal standpoint.

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Speaker 1: A while back, and when I moved out to the

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Speaker 1: middle of nowhere, I did do a lot of research

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Speaker 1: on whether or not it was safe to let my

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Speaker 1: like three year olds outside with coyotes. I was outside

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Speaker 1: with my three year olds, and it is very rare

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Speaker 1: for a coyote to go after a three year old.

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Speaker 1: But you are encouraged to stay with your three year

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Speaker 1: olds outside if there's coyotes around. But once they get bigger,

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Speaker 1: the coyotes are very unlikely to go after them. So

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Speaker 1: your children are safe from coyotes at this age, I

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Speaker 1: would suspect.

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Speaker 2: I hope that's true. Just two days ago, my daughter

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Speaker 2: called me because she was out walking our dog and

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Speaker 2: there was a coyote that blocked her on a path

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Speaker 2: and she was like, I don't know what to do.

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Speaker 2: So I biked over there and made my presence known.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, and so you had to scare the coyote away? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh wow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. They are very brazen in our neighborhood now. They

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Speaker 2: roam in packs, they're everywhere, and hey, you know, we

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Speaker 2: moved into their neighborhood. So on the other hand, I

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Speaker 2: don't really want them eating my kids or my dog.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But back to the question at hand, we're talking about

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Speaker 2: fungi and beetles. One question I had is these beetles

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Speaker 2: are using the fungus to help colonize the tree. What's

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Speaker 2: in it for the fungus and what's happening when the

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Speaker 2: beetles are not in a tree, or are the beetles

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Speaker 2: never not in a tree?

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Speaker 1: The beetles are pretty much always in a tree or

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Speaker 1: moving from one tree to another, and the fungus get transport.

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Speaker 1: So the best way for the fungus to get from

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Speaker 1: one tree to another is by being moved by the fungus.

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Speaker 1: That's the main thing we think that they get from it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and are beetles the only ones who do this

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Speaker 2: kind of fungus farming?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 5: Really?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So Eric wanted to know, you know what other

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Speaker 1: invertebrates collaborate with fungi, And it turns out that there's

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Speaker 1: quite a few invertebrates that collaborate with fungus, and so

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Speaker 1: fungus farming is a pretty common thing in the invertebrate world. Daniel,

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Speaker 1: I have a question for you termites. You look at termites,

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Speaker 1: what do you think termites are closely related to If.

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Speaker 5: You had to guess, hmmm, termite.

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Speaker 3: Or do you already know the answer to this?

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Speaker 2: I do not know the answer. Okay, they're an insect

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Speaker 2: because of the legs they got all those little segments,

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Speaker 2: they seem kind of antie to me, thank you.

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Speaker 3: Yes, they do look anti to me.

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Speaker 1: And so I said something to one of my friends

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Speaker 1: about them being, you know, kind of ant like, and

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Speaker 1: they were like, Kelly, they're more closely related to cockroaches what.

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Speaker 1: And I looked at them for a second and I

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Speaker 1: kind of gave them a little bit of the stink

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Speaker 1: guy because I was like, you are either messing with

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Speaker 1: me or I should be very embarrassed because I.

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Speaker 3: Am way off here. And it turned out I was

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Speaker 3: way off.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't have to be embarrassed because I'm not

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Speaker 2: supposed to know so well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I wasn't trying to embarrass you like you

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Speaker 1: were trying to embarrass me about my gray hair earlier.

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Speaker 2: But ooh, life, I'm impressed by the gravitas your gray

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Speaker 2: hair lends to you.

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Speaker 1: Oh thank you. Yes, I looked very mature and commanding

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Speaker 1: of wisdom and whatnot. Exactly all right. So, fungus farming

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Speaker 1: is seen in some termites, ants, wood wasps, and ambrosia beetles.

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Speaker 1: So basically the deal here is that they collect certain

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Speaker 1: kinds of fungus. They put fungus in a certain area. Sometimes,

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Speaker 1: for example, there are like leafcutter ants who will feed

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Speaker 1: the fungus certain kinds of leaves, and then the fungus

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Speaker 1: will break it down into things that are more digestible

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Speaker 1: for you know, for example, the leaf cutter ants. So

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Speaker 1: let's talk about the Ambrosia beetles for a second. So

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Speaker 1: the Ambrosia beetles will farm fungus and they will bring

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Speaker 1: them into for example, like dead trees, and then they'll

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Speaker 1: create those galleries that we were talking about, and they'll

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Speaker 1: sort of lay their eggs, they'll have their babies, and

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Speaker 1: the fungus will be like creating food for everybody. And

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Speaker 1: the Ambrosia beetles even have little specialized parts on their

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Speaker 1: body so that they can carry the fungus with them

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Speaker 1: from one place to another. And so this is like

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Speaker 1: a very close symbiosis, so they can, you know, can

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Speaker 1: bring it from one place to another. But while I

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Speaker 1: was reading about this, I discovered a cool concept called micocleptism.

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Speaker 1: And so while some Ambrosia beetles will bring the fungus

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Speaker 1: with them from place to place and will essentially live

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Speaker 1: with the same strains of fungus for their whole lives,

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Speaker 1: other beetles will steal fungus from others. And so there

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Speaker 1: are some beetle species who will find an Ambrosia beetle

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Speaker 1: who's doing a good job of farming their own fungus.

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Speaker 1: They're being good farmers, good stewards of the land, and

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Speaker 1: then the micocleptics will will come in and they'll steal

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Speaker 1: some of the fungus and they'll start farming it on

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Speaker 1: a different part of the log, kind of close by.

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Speaker 1: They'll lay their own eggs in there, and they'll essentially

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Speaker 1: steal the fungus. And so they don't they're not born

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Speaker 1: with this fungus. They take it from another organism over

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Speaker 1: the course of their lives.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's a little creepy.

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Speaker 3: It's a little creepy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it it'd be like your family stealing beans

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Speaker 1: from another family or something, you know, because you guys

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Speaker 1: have a close symbiosis with beans and chia seeds.

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Speaker 2: That's true, we do. We are lovers of fermented foods

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Speaker 2: and fiber. Over here. Mm hmm, Okay, we're back and

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Speaker 2: we're answering questions from listeners today. Questions about Beatles, questions

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Speaker 2: about space, questions about what's going on on Kelly's cranium.

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Speaker 1: On my cranium. How did we get to talking about

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Speaker 1: my cranium?

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Speaker 2: Are we going to be talking about gray hair, salt

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Speaker 2: and pepper silver foxes later?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, we're back. We're back to my gray hair,

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Speaker 1: so we're going to talk about my crow's feet too.

437
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want to point out that's

438
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:49,480
Speaker 1: wrong with me?

439
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:49,959
Speaker 3: Daniel?

440
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 2: I never noticed any crows feed, Kelly. This is the

441
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 2: first I hear about them.

442
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:54,479
Speaker 3: No, no, you're not.

443
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 1: You can't walk back the problem you started earlier today, Daniel.

444
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 1: All right, let's change the subject and hear what Gene

445
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 1: has to say.

446
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,199
Speaker 6: Hi there, Daniel and Kelly. I've recently heard about the

447
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,159
Speaker 6: Ambi polar field and I'm fascinated to know more. It

448
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 6: seems to be independent of the earth magnetic field, but

449
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 6: I don't understand how that can be. Can you explain.

450
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,680
Speaker 6: I've also heard that the field is much stronger on Venus,

451
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,119
Speaker 6: and that's one reason why Venus no longer has oxygen

452
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 6: or hydrogen in its atmosphere. But why is it stronger

453
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 6: on Venus than on Earth? And was it always that strong?

454
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 6: If not, might it increase on Earth. I'm loving the

455
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,560
Speaker 6: show and being able to ask questions. It's like having

456
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 6: a tame professor in the spare room. So I'm really

457
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,199
Speaker 6: looking forward to hearing your answers to my questions. Thank you.

458
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,120
Speaker 2: All right, So Gene has a really fun question about

459
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,439
Speaker 2: electric and meg magnetic fields around the Earth. And this

460
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,399
Speaker 2: is a field I think a lot of people haven't

461
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 2: heard of.

462
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think that I've heard, or if I have,

463
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,480
Speaker 1: I've forgotten about the ambu polar field. Right, So I'm

464
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 1: thinking about ambidextrous and you can switch between left and right.

465
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 1: Is that Is that helping me understand ambipolar because it can?

466
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,640
Speaker 3: It's okay.

467
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 2: So most people are familiar with Earth's gravitational field right.

468
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 2: In a Newtonian picture, gravity is a force and it

469
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 2: polls on stuff, and things with more masks get pulled

470
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,680
Speaker 2: on more strongly, and that's what holds the atmosphere in place,

471
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 2: for example, or Earth's magnetic field. Magnetic fields are generated

472
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 2: by charges in motion, So like currents of magma and

473
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 2: other metals inside the Earth we think generate the magnetic

474
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 2: field not fully understood with all sorts of weird behavior

475
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 2: like the poles move and the poles flip, all this

476
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. The ambipolar field is something completely separate

477
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 2: from both of those. It's a totally separate effect coming

478
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 2: from atoms in the app hemosphere being ionized.

479
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 3: Ah All right, So.

480
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 1: Is this going to have anything to do with the

481
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 1: Aurora borealis.

482
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 2: Not directly, no, but a little bit, yeah, a little bit.

483
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 2: So what happens is if you have a neutral particle,

484
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 2: like if a proton and an electron they're bound together,

485
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 2: they make hydrogen for example, everything is happy, but sometimes

486
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 2: things get hot and electrons leave their protons, and now

487
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 2: you have ions protons that are positively charged and electrons

488
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 2: electrons are negatively charged, and they're separated. So this is

489
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 2: like a plasma. And in the upper atmosphere you have

490
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,360
Speaker 2: high speeds and not everything is bound together. So there's

491
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 2: lots of protons and electrons up there, not just all

492
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 2: neutral atoms. So now you have the gravitational force. It's

493
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 2: going to pull harder on the protons than it is

494
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,120
Speaker 2: on the electrons. Why because protons are much more massive

495
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 2: than the electrons.

496
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 5: M hm, I remember that, mm hm.

497
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,640
Speaker 2: And so what that means is that protons are lower

498
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 2: in the atmosphere than electrons. You get this because the

499
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 2: electrons are lower mass, they're moving faster with the same

500
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 2: kinetic energy. So essentially you get an imbalance. Right now,

501
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 2: you have the electrons higher up than the protons. That

502
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 2: creates an electric field because you have these charged particles,

503
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 2: and when you create a separation of charges, you get

504
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: a field between them because essentially there's a force that

505
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 2: wants to pull them back. That is an electric field.

506
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 2: The Ambi polar field in the upper atmosphere of Earth

507
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,719
Speaker 2: and also Mars and also Venus. So that's what the

508
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: Ambi polar field is.

509
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 3: WHOA Okay, all right? So first of all, can you

510
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 3: use that for anything?

511
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 2: You can use it to create like a gun of

512
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 2: particles out into space. So for example, this field will

513
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 2: pull on particles, it'll pull protons up, and in some

514
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: parts of the Earth it'll create like a polar fountain,

515
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,479
Speaker 2: and like at the North Pole it creates like a

516
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 2: font of hydrogen atoms, hydrogen ions actually shooting up and

517
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 2: out of the Earth. I don't know if that's useful

518
00:24:58,880 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 2: for anything, but.

519
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 3: It's kind of okay, yep needs And you could also.

520
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 2: In principle use it to help like steer satellites. You know,

521
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 2: there's one way to steer satellites instead of having thrusters.

522
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 2: You used to like use the Earth's electric and magnetic fields.

523
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 2: Like you have a long tether and you twist it

524
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 2: and that creates torque or you can use it to

525
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 2: create thrust. It's fairly weak though, so not like big

526
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 2: satellites or anything. But you know, it adds to this

527
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 2: sort of texture of the near Earth environment.

528
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: Okay, awesome, And then okay, so you so Earth, Mars,

529
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: and Venus have it all, right, So what are they are?

530
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 1: So they all have gravity, but every planet has gravity.

531
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 1: They all have atmospheres, So you need an atmosphere.

532
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 2: Although Mars's atmosphere is much much weaker, so its ambipolar

533
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 2: field is also weaker.

534
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Mars is like what one percent of Earth's

535
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 3: or something.

536
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

537
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: Is that all you need is a gravitational field and

538
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: an atmosphere to have an ambipolar field.

539
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 2: That's almost all you need. You need ions in your

540
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 2: atmosphere also, right, If it's all neutral particles, you're not

541
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 2: going to get an ambipolar field. And that's one reason

542
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 2: why Venus has a much stronger ambipolar field than Earth

543
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: Number one has a very dense atmosphere, so there's a

544
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 2: lot of electrons and ions to pull apart. But also

545
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 2: because Venus has no magnetic field, it has no protection

546
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 2: from the solar wind. See we're going to get to

547
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 2: the Aurora Borealis connection, and the solar wind is what

548
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 2: creates a lot of these ions in the upper atmosphere.

549
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 2: So you have energy from space photons and protons, etc.

550
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 2: Hitting the upper atmosphere that ionizes it. That energy from

551
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: space breaks open neutral atoms to create your ion and

552
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 2: your electron. And because Venus doesn't have a magnetic field

553
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 2: to protect it from the solar wind, a lot of

554
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 2: that solar radiation causes more ionization and speeds up those

555
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 2: particles because all this energy is coming from space, and

556
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 2: so that gives you a lot of ions, and those

557
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 2: ions are now moving fast, and so that helps these

558
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: ions escape. So that creates a very strong ambipolar field

559
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 2: on Venus. And this is always sort of counterintuitive, like

560
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: the electrons get high high, the protons get lower, and

561
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 2: so that's the amberpolar field. But then the effect on

562
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 2: the other particles is the opposite. That field is always

563
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 2: trying to cancel itself out. Electromagnetism is always doing whatever

564
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 2: it can to cancel itself out because it's so strong.

565
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 2: So you create that field by separating them. Then the

566
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: field has the effect of pushing the ions up and

567
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 2: the electrons down. Which is why you get this like

568
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 2: font of hydrogen ions. In a similar way sort of

569
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 2: that if you immerse a metal in an electric field,

570
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 2: the electrons in that metal will move to counter that

571
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: electric field because the electric field has pushed on those electrons. Right,

572
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 2: So electromagnetism is always doing everything it can to zero

573
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 2: itself out. Doesn't want to ever do anything. It's just

574
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 2: so lazy.

575
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 1: Okay, So it's stronger on Venus. So is it stronger

576
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 1: on Venus for two reasons? One Venus has a thicker

577
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: atmosphere and two you're more likely to have charged particles

578
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: in that atmosphere.

579
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. So it's not directly connected to the magnetic field.

580
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 2: It's not caused by the magnetic field in that sense.

581
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 2: I think that was Jane's question. But it is indirectly

582
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 2: connected because the magnetic field will help you prevent ionization

583
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: of your upper atmosphere, which would reduce the amber polar field.

584
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: And so Venus has a strong one because two reasons, Yes,

585
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 2: has a denser atmosphere and it doesn't have protection from

586
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 2: the solar radiation. Now, we think that a long time

587
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 2: ago Venus was a very different situation. It might have

588
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 2: had a magnetic field before its internal bits seized up

589
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: and it cooled. It might have had internal motion which

590
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: generated a magnetic field which shielded it from some solar radiation,

591
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 2: which would have had less ionization. Now it's lost on

592
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 2: magnetic field, so it gets more radiation and a stronger.

593
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: Field cool Okay, Now, could Earth get a stronger ambipolar field.

594
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 2: Yes, it's possible that our ambipolar field could increase, but

595
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 2: for that to happen, we'd essentially have to lose our

596
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 2: magnetic field. We have to be more susceptible solar radiation,

597
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: so that could either be we lose our magnetic field,

598
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: which seems unlikely. I mean, we don't really understand it,

599
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: and it's been kind of flip flopping and slashing around.

600
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,719
Speaker 2: But total loss of the magnetic field would require the

601
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 2: Earth's internal mechanisms to seize up the way Mars has

602
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 2: and Venus has, and that seems unlikely it happens soon

603
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 2: because there's still plenty of activity going on insider. If

604
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: it would happen, it would be slow and gradual. Or

605
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 2: the other thing is we could have more solar radiation,

606
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 2: so we could get more ionization, and that's more unpredictable

607
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 2: like that just depends on Hey, is the Sun gonna

608
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: burbt us some huge blob of plasma that comes and

609
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 2: strips away a lot of the atmosphere or ionizes it.

610
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 2: That could happen in any moment. You know, just a

611
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: few weeks ago we had really strong aurora boreality is

612
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 2: how you pluralize it. You could see them pretty far

613
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 2: south in the United States because of the space weather

614
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 2: event from the Sun, and that comes from not understanding

615
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 2: the internal dynamics and the chaos of the Sun's plasma

616
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 2: well enough to So, yeah, we could get a stronger

617
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: ambipolar field if we got more solar radiation or if

618
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,719
Speaker 2: we weakened our protection from it. Either one would give

619
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 2: us more ions and therefore a stronger ambipolar field.

620
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: Neither one of those options sound great for the humans

621
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: living here, So let's hope it doesn't happen.

622
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: All right, Well, let's send that answer to Jane and

623
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 2: hear if it freaked her out or made her feel

624
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 2: more at one with her understanding.

625
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 5: Of the universe.

626
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 3: And let's hear if she's going to kick the professor

627
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 3: out of her spare room.

628
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for your answer, Daniel, I really

629
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 4: feel I understand the ambipolar field now, and I'm very

630
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 4: relieved the way for the most part, protected from Venus's

631
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 4: fate by our wonderful magnetic field. But I do love

632
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 4: the idea of a polar fountain. Sounds like something Santa

633
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 4: would have. Oh, by the way, my spare room is

634
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 4: still available for professors if you're ever in the North

635
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 4: of England. Thanks for a great.

636
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, Daniel, if you had a professor in

637
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 1: your spare room for questions, would you want a physicist

638
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: or maybe a less smelly profession.

639
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: We often have a professor in our spare room because

640
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 2: we have a guest room and people come to visit

641
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 2: and sometimes, you know, you invite a friend to come

642
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 2: and visit for official reasons to give a talk, but

643
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 2: then you also want to hang out with them and

644
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 2: you don't want to put them up in a hotel,

645
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 2: so they sleep in our spare room and have dinner

646
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 2: with us, and that's a lot of fun. So often

647
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: we have biologists and physicists or physicists usually coming to

648
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 2: stay with us, and our kids have expressed their lack

649
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: of enthusiasm for physics or biology dominated dinner conversations.

650
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: Our kids at some point asked us to please stop

651
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: talking about space law over dinner.

652
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 3: H Yeah, I understand. All right. Let's move on to

653
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 3: our question from Joe.

654
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 7: Hi, Danielle, and Kelly. I've often heard the claim that

655
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 7: stress made me get all these great hairs? Is there

656
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 7: any biological validity to that concept? And if so, what

657
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 7: are the mechanisms? Can your emotional state plus cortisol or

658
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 7: dopamine levels perhaps affect this part of your biology? Finally,

659
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 7: has it been observed in any other animals? Thanks so

660
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 7: much for bringing some color or salt and pepper to

661
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 7: this question.

662
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: All right, So Joe suggested, the gray hair isn't just

663
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: about age. It might be about stress. It's about like

664
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 2: emotional age, not you know, cosmological age.

665
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: That's right, and so I think it's possible that there

666
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: are different mechanisms at play here. So let's go ahead

667
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: and leave my old age related grays to the side.

668
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: We don't have to talk about them anymore. Actually, okay,

669
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: all right, and so to understand what's happening, let's go

670
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: ahead and talk about the hair cycle. All right, So

671
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: you have loads of hair follicles on your head?

672
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 2: I do you do you do one does.

673
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: Not only is your hair not gray, but you actually

674
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: have it covering your whole head. You are very lucky

675
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: for a fifty year old. Or are we rounding up

676
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: to one hundred?

677
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 5: Now?

678
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, I'm more than fifty, so rounds up.

679
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 3: Okay, all right.

680
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: So each of our hair follicles goes through a cycle,

681
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: and our hair follicles aren't SYNCD, so our hair follicles

682
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: tend to be at different stages of this cycle. Anigen

683
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: is the part of the cycle where your hair is growing,

684
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: and for the hair on top of your head, the

685
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: stage usually lasts about four to six years.

686
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 5: Oh that's all yeah, yeah.

687
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: Kind of surprising, right, and your hair is growing something

688
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: like half an inch a year. And early in anigen,

689
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: what happens is that you have hair follicle stem cells,

690
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: and so stem cells our cells that are they're like

691
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: they're like baby stem cells.

692
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 3: There's things that they can become, but they haven't.

693
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: Become them yet. And these are cells that are going

694
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: to become hair follicles, but they haven't become them yet.

695
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: So they're hanging out there and when the time comes,

696
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: they will become hair follicles and they're just waiting for

697
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: the message.

698
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 3: When you get to this.

699
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: Early growth phase, these hairfollical stem cells jump into action.

700
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: They make a hair follicle, and now you've got your

701
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 1: hair follicle.

702
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 2: All right. So I have stem cells on my scalp

703
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 2: my whole life, waiting to become follicles. Mm hm, cool,

704
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 2: didn't know that.

705
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: And you also have melanocytes stem cells, and so what

706
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: they're doing is they're waiting to produce melanocytes. And these

707
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: are the cells that make melanin, which is the pigment

708
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: that gives hair color. And so early in anigen, your

709
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: hair follicle is being made, and your melanocyte stem cells

710
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: are activated to make melanocytes, and the melanocytes will travel

711
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: down to your hair follicle and they get ready to

712
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 1: start making melanin. So now your hair follicle is making

713
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: the hair, your melanocytes are making the melanin, and now

714
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:11,720
Speaker 1: you have hair that has color.

715
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: And all of my melaninites have to all be coordinated, right,

716
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 2: because I have like one color of hair on my head,

717
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 2: and do you have a different color of hair? And

718
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 2: my daughter's blonde, for example, And so there's a genetic

719
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 2: coating in there. That controls all of the melaninites or

720
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 2: melanocytes melanocytes.

721
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 3: Yes, they're all making the same color.

722
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 5: I see. Yeah, Okay.

723
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 2: So the thing that's confusing to me is if they

724
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 2: only last for four to sixty years, how come I

725
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 2: didn't lose all my hair when I was seven?

726
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 3: Because there's a cycle.

727
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: Okay, So you've got four to six years, and then

728
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: you go into a phase called the catagen phase where

729
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: everything sort of degenerates. You lose the blood vessels and

730
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: so now the hair follicle isn't getting oxygen or nutrients,

731
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: and this lasts about two weeks. And at this stage

732
00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: the melanocytes die, but your melanocytes stem cells are still alive,

733
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: so you still have cells that can make more melanocytes,

734
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: but the melanocytes that were made a few years ago

735
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: they're toast.

736
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 5: Okay, okay.

737
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: And then you go into a resting phase and this

738
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 1: can last for a few months where the hair follicles

739
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: just kind of chilling out, and then you go into

740
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: a phase called exigen where the original hair is shed

741
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: out because you've started the cycle again. A new hair

742
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 1: is growing and it pushes out the old one you shed,

743
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: So you shed something like fifty to one hundred hairs

744
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: a day, and so that's how many hairs are sort

745
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: of beginning the process anew. And when you start that

746
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: process ANEW, those two types of stem cells wake up again.

747
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 1: They start doing their jobs again. And after the new

748
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: hair follicle has started and after the new melanocytes are

749
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 1: have gone to work, those two sets of stem cells

750
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: go to sleep again for like, you know, four to

751
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 1: six years or whatever. They do their job, they make

752
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: the cells that are going to work through the cycle,

753
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: and then the stem cells go to sleep.

754
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 3: Does that make sense.

755
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense, and it really helps

756
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 2: me understand something I remember wondering about when I was

757
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 2: like a teenager young physicist. Daniel was thinking about hair

758
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 2: growth the way you think about like radioactive decay. You know.

759
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 2: I was thinking maybe it was like probabilistic and hairs

760
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 2: would just like fall out randomly. But if that were

761
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 2: the case, you'd start with like a full head of

762
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 2: hair and then you just gradually lose hairs until eventually

763
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: you had like one super long hair, which would be

764
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 2: you had. Clearly, that model does not explain the data,

765
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 2: So I like your model a lot better.

766
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: Oh good, Okay, well, and there's a lot of variability.

767
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 1: Some people have you know, shorter cycles, so their hair

768
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: doesn't grow as long, right, and the cycle on your

769
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 1: body as much shorter, so your body hairs never get

770
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: as long as the hair is on your head. But

771
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: this is like sort of generally or understanding of how

772
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 1: the cycle goes on average.

773
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 2: All right, And so there's really two different bits there.

774
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: There's like the hair growing and the hair coloring, and

775
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: so tell us about why the hair coloring can go

776
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 2: wrong or why things turn gray?

777
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 3: All right?

778
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: So I found this amazing paper jang at All twenty

779
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: twenty in Nature did this amazing set of bar ORMs

780
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: that sort of like deal with tons of different hypotheses,

781
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 1: and they really nail it down in mice.

782
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 3: So again this is in mice. Keep in mind it's

783
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 3: in mice, not in humans.

784
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: But okay, so first they say if you stress out

785
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: black mice, will they get gray hairs? So they stress

786
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: mice out a couple different ways, and the mice do

787
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: start going gray.

788
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 2: Are they terrible?

789
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 1: Uh No, I mean they're not. They're not the worst

790
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: I've read about.

791
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 2: I have to imagine how I stress out a mouse.

792
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 2: I might like put it in a cage next to

793
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 2: a cat, not to kill it, but just to like

794
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,439
Speaker 2: put it in the cage next to it. That would

795
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:34,720
Speaker 2: be pretty stressful for a mouse.

796
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 3: Oh okay, So no, this is nowhere near that bad. Actually.

797
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: So they would rapidly change the light and dark cycles.

798
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: They would leave the bedding be a little bit damp,

799
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 1: they would have the cage be sort of tilted. They

800
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: leave them in a cage by themselves, and they're kind

801
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: of in a social species. So nowhere near as bad

802
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 1: as what you're thinking.

803
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 2: That's very gentle, Yes, that is yes.

804
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:55,399
Speaker 3: Yeah.

805
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 1: And again, as we've discussed multiple times on the show,

806
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 1: before you do experiments like this, you need to get

807
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: animal care and use protocols. And we understand you have

808
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: to stress the animals out to test the hypothesis, but

809
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:05,399
Speaker 1: you've got to.

810
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 3: Do it in the most human way possible.

811
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 1: Good okay, But the most effective and fast method they

812
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: found for stressing the animals out was to give them

813
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,919
Speaker 1: an injection of a capsayasin analog under their skin.

814
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,240
Speaker 3: So capsayasins spicy. That's spicy.

815
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the stuff that gives you the spicy feeling

816
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: if you're eating peppers or something.

817
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 2: So they would like internally pepper spray these mice.

818
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, you always find the most horrible way to say

819
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 1: these things when we talk about animal studies. But I

820
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: am going to just use the phrase the injection for

821
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 1: the rest of.

822
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: This description, if that makes you feel better.

823
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 3: Kelly, all right, All right, Well, do you want to

824
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 3: know the answer to this or not?

825
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 2: Yes? I do?

826
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 5: Please?

827
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:43,399
Speaker 3: Okay? You all right?

828
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 1: So they inject mice with this capsaiusin analog and the

829
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: mice did get gray, but they got like salt and

830
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 1: pepper gray like me. So it wasn't they didn't turn

831
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: completely gray. It wasn't patches. It was exactly what you

832
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: would expect if you had hair follicles on random cycles.

833
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 3: And some some of them started turning gray.

834
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 2: And did they look at the microbiology of it, like

835
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 2: can they see the melanocyte dying or doing something or.

836
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: Giving up or yeah, So that's the next thing that

837
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: they did. So next they said, okay, we know that

838
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 1: the we've got these mice that will turn gray sort

839
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: of like humans do, So what's happening. So then they

840
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 1: they decided they were gonna for the stress or they

841
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: were going to just.

842
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 3: Keep using this injection.

843
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: So then they used the injection and they looked at

844
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: what was happening with the melanocyte stem cells and with

845
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: the milano sites, and what they found was that the

846
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 1: melanocytes stem cells were like disappearing, oh, but the milana

847
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: sites were staying where they were, and so all of

848
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 1: the melanocytes that had already been made were fine. They

849
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: kept making the black pigment for these black mice, but

850
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: the milanocytes stem cells were gone. So the next time

851
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: a phase started again, no new melanocytes were made, and

852
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: those hair follicles would become gray.

853
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 2: So gray is the default color. If you don't have

854
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 2: a melanocyte, then it's just gray.

855
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: Yes, right, And so they're like, Okay, where did these

856
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: in a site stem cells go that are supposed to

857
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 1: be there to make sure you've got the cells to

858
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: give you color every time the cycle starts again. So

859
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 1: that was the next question that they wanted to ask.

860
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: And so one idea that's been going around for a

861
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 1: while is that when you get stressed out, something about

862
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: your immune system attacks your like hair follicles, and something

863
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:21,919
Speaker 1: about that makes it so that your hair goes gray.

864
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: And so we've done so much work on mice in

865
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: the lab. Now that you can just like pop open

866
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: a mouse catalog and you can order mice that like

867
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 1: have various parts of their immune systems that don't work anymore.

868
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 5: Wow.

869
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: And so they like ordered some mice that don't have

870
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 1: T cells, or don't have B cells, or like they're

871
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: lacking various parts of their immune.

872
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: Cells, meaning that there's like an industry that manufactures mice

873
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 2: with specific deficits that are useful for scientific experiments.

874
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:48,760
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, amazing.

875
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: So they essentially ordered some mice who don't have like

876
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: good immune systems in a variety of different ways, and

877
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,919
Speaker 1: they gave them these injections and they still went gray.

878
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: So that was pretty good evidence that it's not something

879
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: about the immune system that's important for creating this gray.

880
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: So the next question they wanted to know was, Okay, well,

881
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: is it something about stress? And usually when you are

882
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: thinking about stress, you think about cortisol or ner adrenaline.

883
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: So cortisol is a hormone that humans make and we

884
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: release it in times of stress. And what it does

885
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: is it helps us like mobilize energy. So for example,

886
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 1: if you're being chased by a lion, you want to

887
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 1: make sure you've got as much energy available as you know,

888
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 1: as many like calories that you could send to your

889
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: muscles or whatever, so that you can run away from

890
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,359
Speaker 1: that lion. It's not going to make you faster than

891
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,720
Speaker 1: you usually would be, but as fast as you're able

892
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: to be. They want to make sure that you can

893
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: be to try to get away from that lion. And

894
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 1: then after that stress or it tries to help your

895
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 1: body like recover from this massively horrible thing that just

896
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: happened to you. And so for us, that hormone is

897
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: called cortisol. Mice have a closely related version called cordiicosterone,

898
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,919
Speaker 1: and so they wondered, Okay, maybe it's something about cordicosterone

899
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: that causes graying. And so it turns out that the

900
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: melanocyte stem cells have receptors for cortocosterone. And so what

901
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 1: that means is that these stem cells can bind to qrtoicosterone.

902
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: And what usually happens when a receptor binds to a

903
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 1: hormone is that that hormone is sending some message to

904
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: the inside of the cell that the cell needs to

905
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 1: do something. And usually what that something is is like

906
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: you need to go into your genetic blueprints and start

907
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 1: making some new compounding.

908
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

909
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: So what they did amazingly is they said, Okay, we're

910
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: going to essentially take the receptors off of the melanocyte

911
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: stem cells, and now we're going to inject the mice

912
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: with the capsais and analog and see what happens. And

913
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: those mice still got gray hairs. So it wasn't about

914
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 1: the glucocorticoid stress hormones, because even when that hormone can't

915
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: talk to the melanocyte stem cells, you still get gray hairs.

916
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 3: Are you with me? Because this is kind of confusing,

917
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 3: but it's beautiful how they're doing this step by step.

918
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 2: I didn't follow gluco corticoid, but I think I do understand.

919
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 2: The argument here is that these melanocyte stem cells, the

920
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: things that you need in order to make new melanocytes,

921
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 2: are disappearing. And they have a button on their outside

922
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 2: that responds to this stress hormone. But when they disabled

923
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 2: that button, it didn't change anything. So they don't think

924
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 2: that pressing that button to distress is killing these melanocytes.

925
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 3: Thank you, Yes, that's a great way to say it.

926
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, perfect, And they have another button for nora

927
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: adrenaline and nor adrenaline is just another chemical your body

928
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: makes when you're stressed out, but it comes from different places.

929
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: It can either come from your sympathetic nervous system, so

930
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 1: it can come from nerves that talk to your hair follicles,

931
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: or it can come from these glands that sit on

932
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: top of your kidneys. They figured out that if you

933
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: remove this button for nor adrenaline, they don't turn gray. Oh,

934
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: and they figured out that the message is not coming

935
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: from on top of the kidneys. The message is coming

936
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 1: from the nerves. Oh, I'm simplifying a little bit because

937
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:05,240
Speaker 1: I realized I was getting a little two in the weeds.

938
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 3: But anyway, it is coming from the nerves.

939
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 2: Wow.

940
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: And they were actually able to like use this neurotoxin

941
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: to keep the nerves from sending the message to the

942
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: hair follicles and they didn't turn gray when you like

943
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: messed with the nerves. So it's definitely the nerves that

944
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 1: are sending the message to the melanocytes that is essentially

945
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 1: making the melanostes disappear.

946
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 2: And what's the connection then with stress is something about

947
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 2: the stress that makes the nerves send this message.

948
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:36,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you stress someone out, their sympathetic nervous system,

949
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,280
Speaker 1: their fight or flight system is like, ah, they've released

950
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 1: nora adrenaline, and that nora adrenaline binds to the melanocyte

951
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,399
Speaker 1: stem cells, so you're the button on the melanocyte stem

952
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: cells has been pushed. But if they are in the

953
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: phase where they're supposed to be sleeping, you've woken them

954
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: up from their sleep and they kind of freak out,

955
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: and instead of I don't know, going back to sleep,

956
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: they start doing something totally unexpected. They all start turning

957
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:09,439
Speaker 1: into other kinds of cells. I think they're turning into melanocytes,

958
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: and then they migrate away, and so by the time

959
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: this process is done, you don't have any more stem cells.

960
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: They've all done what's called differentiated, which is a fancy

961
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: way of saying they've turned into a final version of

962
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: a cell, and they can't make new like melanocytes anymore.

963
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: And then they migrate away, and so they're not there anymore.

964
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 1: The next time your hair cycle starts again, they've wandered

965
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 1: off for reasons we don't understand. And so something about

966
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: freaking out from some stressful event totally like discombobulates your

967
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: melanocyte stem cells and they wander off.

968
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 2: So that makes sense as a mechanism to explain why

969
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: this happens. But why would melanocytes stem cells have this button.

970
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 2: Why are they sensitive to the presence of these stress hormones?

971
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 5: We don't know.

972
00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 1: Ooh yeah, So there has been a connection between pigment

973
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: producing cells like melanocytes and our nervous system for you know,

974
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 1: like a really long stretch of evolution. So for example,

975
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:15,959
Speaker 1: octopuses and other cephalopods, if you stress them out, they

976
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 1: will talk to their pigment producing cells to like change colors,

977
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: kind of like blend in with the environment. But that

978
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 1: doesn't explain why we have nervous systems that are like

979
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 1: talking to our melanocytes and our hair follicles. But there

980
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: is this like long connection. Maybe there's some reason why

981
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: it still benefits us that we don't know. But when

982
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: I read the discussion of this paper from twenty twenty,

983
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: they were pretty much like not really clear why this

984
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: is happening, like what the evolutionary benefit would be. Maybe

985
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: it's something that was beneficial millions of years ago and

986
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: there was just never a reason to decouple these connections.

987
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 2: Maybe it's not so bad for people who have experienced

988
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 2: stress to advertise that by showing off their gray flowing locks,

989
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 2: so people know, Oh, you know, Kelly's been through something.

990
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: Let me ask her opinion.

991
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 1: That's what she's probably wise because she experienced Yes, right,

992
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: grad school gave her gray hair.

993
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 3: She can tell us to not go No, I had

994
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 3: fun in grad school.

995
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 2: And so is this only something that happens in mice

996
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 2: or is the same mechanism happen in other animals, like

997
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 2: in people.

998
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,839
Speaker 1: I think it happens in other animals too, Like, I mean,

999
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: dogs definitely go gray. I don't know if they go

1000
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: gray for stress, but like, I think, if it's happening

1001
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: in mice, it's probably happening in other animals too. So

1002
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 1: I'm guessing this is a pretty common thing.

1003
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 2: And this suggests it might also be a treatment available there.

1004
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:36,399
Speaker 2: You could somehow protect those myocytes so they don't get

1005
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:37,280
Speaker 2: that button pressed.

1006
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1007
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 1: So one, I want to note that it's really refreshing

1008
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,760
Speaker 1: to have you be the one mispronouncing a word for once.

1009
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 1: I'm like feeling great about that. And I guess we

1010
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:48,439
Speaker 1: you know, we both give as good as we get

1011
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: in terms of.

1012
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:49,879
Speaker 3: Picking on each other.

1013
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 1: But yes, it does suggest that if somebody has had

1014
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: like a super stressful experience. Maybe you could try to

1015
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 1: calm them down in some way quickly, in a way

1016
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: that might rescue their melanocyte stem cells. You'd have to

1017
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 1: do that pretty fast, because once those stem cells have

1018
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:07,879
Speaker 1: migrated away, they don't come back.

1019
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, then you've lost them forever.

1020
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 2: Wow, fascinating.

1021
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 1: I really appreciate this question, Joe, because this was, like,

1022
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 1: this was so much fun to read about. Like there

1023
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: were lots of things in this paper where I was like,

1024
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 1: I have no idea what you're saying. This is like

1025
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: crazy molecular biology stuff, but like, wow, this was a

1026
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: cool set of experiments that anyway, I am going to

1027
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: try to make sure nothing super stressful happens to hasten

1028
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: my decline into silver foxhood, but I'm sure I'll rocket

1029
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: either way.

1030
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 2: Well, fortunately it doesn't sound like answering this question was

1031
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 2: that stressful for you, which is a relief. So let's

1032
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 2: send it over to Joe and hear about whether it

1033
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 2: gives him any more gray hairs.

1034
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 7: What a colorful journey to finding that association. I'd like

1035
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 7: to mention that this kind of science, whether search for

1036
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 7: an answer becomes a series of experimental steps, is research

1037
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 7: of the best kind. It's also one everyone can do

1038
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 7: in their own way. Thank you for getting to the

1039
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 7: root of this question without stressing anyone out in the

1040
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 7: same vein as Kelly, I too have a few hairs

1041
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 7: of wisdom. That said, I'm definitely still going for the

1042
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 7: spicy foods. Whether your head is black, blonde, bear, or

1043
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 7: glistening gray, stay show everyone.

1044
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 2: All right. Thank you very much everybody who sent us questions.

1045
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 2: We really do love hearing from you, and one reason

1046
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 2: is that it gives us an excuse to dig into

1047
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 2: some corner of physics or biology that we always wanted

1048
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 2: to understand and never had a reason to spend an

1049
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,359
Speaker 2: afternoon on. So thank you very much everybody for being

1050
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,879
Speaker 2: curious and for sharing that curiosity with us.

1051
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 5: Thank you.

1052
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio.

1053
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:49,799
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1054
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,840
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1055
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 2: have about this Extraordinary Universe.

1056
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,719
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1057
00:50:58,719 --> 00:50:59,680
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1058
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,160
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1059
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,960
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1060
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,200
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1061
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,360
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1062
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:14,279
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1063
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1064
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1065
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:20,040
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