WEBVTT - The Story of the Nuclear Boy Scout 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:07.760 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.440 Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.040 Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is a gold 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:18.840 fashioned barn burner of a stuff you Should Know type topic. 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:21.400 Woo whizbang Chuck. 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:25.040 This was somebody sent this in as a suggestion recently. 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:27.280 I think, right, yeah, you know, I think you and 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:29.600 I had both been aware of this story. But we 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.000 did get a recent suggestion from David Departcher. 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.480 Yeah, David Parcher, I think just a couple of weeks 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.960 ago sent in the suggestion and look at the timing. 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:42.559 Yeah, well, thank you, David. And we're going to talk 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:46.640 about another David, that is David Hahn, the Nuclear Boy Scout. 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:47.080 Yep. 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:49.239 And this is one of those where we owe a 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:53.800 huge debt to a single human because this story was 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:59.120 may have just gone fairly unnoticed as a pretty localized 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.200 local news paper item if it hadn't have been found 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.160 by a gentleman named Ken Silverstein, who ended up writing 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:10.360 a very large piece in Harper's Magazine and then a 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:14.000 book called The Radioactive Boy Scout colon the True story 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:18.320 of a boy in his backyard nuclear reactor, so big, 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:20.360 thanks to Ken. A lot of this came from your work. 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:24.080 Yeah, and shout out also to the journalists from the 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:30.120 Natural Resources News Service, which is this investigative journalist group 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:34.640 that just as a public good like investigate stories and 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.240 then turn around and give them to news outlets. And 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.679 apparently that's how Ken came across the story and began 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.040 researching it. So there's two people that were responsible for 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:45.040 it at least. 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:47.840 Yeah, and three because we have to count David Hahn, 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:53.160 the Michigan teenager who in the nineties managed to create 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:57.320 a nuclear reaction in the potting shed of his mom's house. 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.360 It is a story that is interesting and amazing but 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.000 also very sad in its ending. 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.720 Yeah, and technically we should thank five people because it 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:12.560 took Patty and Ken Han to reproduce and create David Hahn. 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:14.880 So we're at five people now that we need to thank. 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:20.280 All right, So David was born October nineteen seventy six. 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:22.360 That's a year you were born. 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:24.760 Right, Yeah. I was just a couple months older than him. 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.520 Yeah, and look what this guy did. Yeah, what have 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:29.160 you ever done? 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:29.760 Thanks for that? 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:34.040 You gotta hit podcasts. You're not sweating it. 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:35.680 Oh, I'm sweating. 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:38.880 When he was a little And we say this because 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.440 it very much figures into the end of David's story. 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:44.280 It's very sad. But his mother, Patty was diagnosed with 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:50.560 depression and paranoid schizophrenia, was hospitalized through his early childhood 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.520 off and on, and she would eventually take her own 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:54.800 life in nineteen ninety six. 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:57.520 Yeah, and that we'll play into the story later on. 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:01.160 But Patty remains a character throughout most of it. So 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:05.040 too does David's father, Ken, who we mentioned. He's person five. 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.200 We need to thank Patty and Ken got divorced, I 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:10.720 think when David was really little, like maybe a toddler, 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:15.760 and Ken ended up marrying a coworker. Person number six 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:19.440 we need to thank Kathy missing. Ken and Kathy were 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.239 both engineers at General Motors. This whole thing took place 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:28.359 in the suburbs of Detroit, specifically Clinton Township, Michigan, specifically 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:32.880 later on, in a subdivision called Golf Manor as we'll see. 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:37.120 But so David lives with Ken and Cathy, and then 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.320 on weekends he goes and stays with his mom, Patty 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.320 and her boyfriend. Person number seven who we need to 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:46.280 thank Michael Polassic, and they're the ones I believe who 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:49.920 lived in golf Manor and under by all accounts, like 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:55.360 David lived a pretty normal childhood, just doing normal childhood things. 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:59.960 It wasn't until he was ten that his life found 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.680 its purpose, which is pretty early if you think about it, 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:04.200 for your life to find its purpose. 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:06.600 Yeah, and by the way, if you live in golf Manor, 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:09.280 hold your emails, we know you're in Commerce Township. 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:13.720 Yes, thank you for that. I think his dad lived 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:14.800 in Clinton Township. 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:17.560 Yeah, it's probably like where I lived in New Jersey. 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:19.599 It's like all these old townships just run together. 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:21.479 Yeah, that's what it looked like on the map. 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:25.760 Yeah. So the person we really need to thank this 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:26.480 is number eight. 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:27.239 Person eight. 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:30.520 Is, like you mentioned, when David was ten years old, 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:34.360 his step mom's father, so I guess his step grandfather 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:37.200 if you count that as a thing. He was also 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:39.800 an engineer at GM. He gave a little David a 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:44.320 book called the Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments, and little 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:49.720 David was fascinated with science and chemistry, but in particular 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:53.240 with the stories of Mary and Pierre Currie and their 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:57.480 radium discovery and the glow. I think the glow of 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:01.000 that whole thing really enthrall this young guy. 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:04.680 Yeah, this book was heavily illustrated and like the instructions 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:06.840 kind of looked had the same look as like those 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:11.719 Ripley's Believe it or not. Yeah, comic strips almost totally 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:13.720 something that would appeal to a kid that age are 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.880 a little older. You can find it online in its 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:20.520 entirety as a PDF. And I looked at that illustration. 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:23.719 I don't really know what he saw, and it's actually 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.880 black and white that glows to some lines coming off 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:27.920 of a beaker or whatever. 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:29.480 But imagination, my friend, for. 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.320 Some reason, it enthralled him so much so that within 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:36.240 two years of receiving that book, he was devouring his 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:39.000 father's chemistry textbooks at age twelve. 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:41.880 Yeah, so he was. I mean, these were books that 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:45.720 were more advanced than his age. Clearly a smart guy. 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:50.640 At the age of fourteen, he apparently made nitroglycerin by himself, 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:53.599 which evidently isn't the hardest thing to do, but is 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:57.280 very dangerous to do. There are other stories like he 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.840 brought wanted to make his own fireworks boy scout camp, 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.360 so we brought some powdered magnesium. It ended up catching 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:09.080 on fire and ruined a tent. So what else. He 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:12.839 tried to develop a self tanning method that didn't work out, right. 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:17.400 Yeah, he overdosed on Kantha's anthen, which I can't remember 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:20.720 which one which episode that came up in, but it's 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:23.520 a pigment that turned your skin orange from the inside out. 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:25.160 And that's what he did. He was trying to come 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:28.240 up with a self tanning method that didn't use any 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:29.600 kind of UV radiation. 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:33.400 Yeah, no comment, but he was that kind of dude. 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:35.599 He would just turn up at like a Scout meeting 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:38.240 or something bright orange and be like, yeah, too much 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:39.040 Cantha's anthen. 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.000 So yeah, he's exactly that kid. He's also the kind 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:49.000 of kid who essentially destroys his bedroom because he's doing science. 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.280 The walls were wrecked, the carpet was stayed, they had 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:56.040 to move the carpet out. Eventually, his dad was like, listen, 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:02.000 this is getting serious. You're destroying our home. You got 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:04.800 to move into the basement first of all, and when 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:08.920 we're not here, you can't be in here either. They 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:13.480 took away equipment, they took away some chemicals, and finally 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:16.040 they said, all right, this is out of hand. You 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.400 can't do this anymore. So they said, all right, I'll 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.240 do it, like every divorce kid says, I'll do it 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:21.960 at the other. 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:25.760 Parents house, that's right, And so he did. He ended 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:28.720 up setting up a lab in his mom's potting shit 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:33.880 and golf manor in commerce township. And this is where 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:37.120 the story really starts to kind of take off, because 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:42.520 his dad was getting really worried that his son was 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:49.160 basically creating and selling drugs, like that's what he was 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.600 doing with his chemistry experiments, and so like they would 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.400 he and his stepmom would drop in in the library 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:57.280 when he was supposedly there to see if he was there. 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.200 Like they really did not trust this fascin with chemistry, 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:03.640 which I mean, I can understand if your kid blows 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.360 himself up a couple of times, you're like, what are 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:07.800 you doing exactly here? 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:08.680 Yeah. 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:12.160 So I don't know if he knew that David went 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:15.560 and set up a lab in his mom's potting shed 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:18.840 or not and just was like, it's fine as long 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:20.520 as side of my house. I'm not sure. I've never 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:22.880 seen that either way. But one thing that he did 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:24.800 do to try to be like, okay, I think you're 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.480 creating drugs. You're probably on them, you may or may 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:29.400 not be selling them. None of those seem to be true. 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:31.440 From what I can tell. You need to become an 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.160 eagle scout. And he pushed his son to become an 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:34.800 eagle scout. 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:37.920 Yeah, and that's exactly what he did, as we will 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:40.640 later find out. But when it came to time per 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:45.000 merit badge selection, he said, I want the one that 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:50.240 says atomic energy, and the scout master said, I think 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.960 he told the writer of the book, no one had 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.400 ever chosen that before in the history of the troop, right, 0:08:57.000 --> 0:08:59.120 So it kind of reminds me of the Brian Coxceine 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:02.800 and Rushmore with Bill Murray when he says he's one 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.480 of the worst students we've got. I can just picture 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:07.760 Brian Cox saying that that no one's ever tried for 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:12.440 this badge before. But it was a legit badge. It's 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:14.760 kind of funny that it existed. It's different now, as 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.040 we'll see. But in nineteen sixty three they introduced the 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:22.600 atomic energy badge. It came with a pamphlet that they 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:26.040 created with the nuclear energy industry that turned out to 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:30.480 have a lot of really useful information. Almost like a 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:34.920 starter kit on how to like source radioactive elements in 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:37.280 the real world. Yeah, and how to get your own 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:38.040 reactor going. 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.360 Yeah. One of the projects you could do was to 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:45.240 build your own Geiger Counter. Like it was serious stuff. 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:48.480 Yeah, maybe so legit that, Like I said, the boy 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:52.680 Scouts would eventually change that badge. I think probably because 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.520 of what happened with David in two thousand and five. 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.160 They replaced it with the Nuclear Science Badge. 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:02.080 Yes, so he's still working on the original, the Atomic 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.840 Energy Badge from nineteen sixty three. Right, Oh, yeah, So 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.840 he's just devouring this. He's having the best time. He 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:14.800 visits a hospital ward to learn about X rays, which 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:19.440 is part of the Merit Badge certification. The thing that 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:23.160 really changed things, though, Chuck, is he decided just these 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:25.760 things the Merit Badge was having him do. Like one 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:29.760 of the things was draw a diagram of a fission reaction, 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:33.679 or build a model of a nuclear reactor, but a 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:39.000 model like a cardboard model basically, or paper machine, or yes, 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:45.080 or I will create my own nuclear reactor in my 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:49.320 mom's potting shed. He decided he was so psyched about 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.079 atomic energy that he wanted to do it. Himself. 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:55.320 Yeah. I mean, I guess you do the model and 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:59.000 you're like, hey, that wasn't so hard. Let me see 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:00.760 if I can do it for real. And he wanted 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.080 to build, and you know, this shows that he was 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:05.240 a kid. I think. I don't think this was to 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:10.080 cause harm. He wanted to build a neutron gun, and 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:13.119 the way I just for my research this is speculation. 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:15.880 But it didn't seem like he was like I want 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:17.920 to build a neutron gun to try and like blow 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:19.520 up the city that I live in. 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:20.440 Not at all. 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.280 It seemed more like a kid who was really into 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.480 science and sci fi and chemistry and wanted to make 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:28.040 a little pew pew gun. 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:34.079 Yeah. I think neutron gun is a it's a misleading term. 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.440 I can't get the Nintendo Duck Hunt gun out of 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.560 my head whenever I hear neutron gun. But really, what 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.160 a neutron gun is, at least the one that David made. 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.000 It's a block of lead with a cavity carved out, 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:49.800 and you put radioactive material in the cavity and then 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:52.400 cover it over with like aluminum foil, and then you 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:56.720 just point the aluminum foil side of that block of 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:00.160 lead at what you want to irradiate, and then you 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:03.640 try to start a chain reaction, a nuclear reaction. That 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.600 seems to be the sum total of his goals. He 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:08.720 wasn't trying to build a bomb, he wasn't trying to 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:12.360 sell plutonium to the Libyans, he wasn't doing anything like that. 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.400 He just wanted to see if he could start a 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:19.040 nuclear chain reaction, this thing that had fascinated him since 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:21.280 he was ten years old. And so we set about 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:25.840 doing that with help from this eagle scout merit badge pamphlet. 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:26.400 Yeah. 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:30.720 Yeah, so that's the whole thing that much more nuts. 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:35.079 Yeah. And also by adopting a persona as a professor, 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:39.319 because he starts writing into organizations, trying to get information, 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:43.360 trying to get materials, trying to get schematics. He said 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:46.000 he was Professor Hahn that taught at his high school, 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:47.360 Chipawa Valley High School. 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.720 Oh goat and chipmunks are they? I don't know. 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:56.360 And over the next few years, basically and apparently you know, 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.920 he he applied himself. He didn't apply himself in school. 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:03.760 He was smart, but he was failing almost failing out, 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:07.480 basically barely passing, like the math and English exams needed 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:10.600 to graduate eventually. But that is to say these letters 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:14.679 had like spelling errors and grammatical errors. It didn't seem 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.840 like they were written by a professor. But people bought it, 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.800 and before you know it, he's like corresponding as a 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:22.200 professor to these adults. 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:25.720 Yeah, and these adults are just totally into this correspondence. 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:29.360 They're really enjoying helping this who they think a high 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:33.640 school physics teacher learn the stuff he's looking for about 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.839 nuclear energy to ostensibly go and teach to the kids. Right, 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:40.800 So this correspondence is like genuine. The only thing illegitimate 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:44.480 about it was that he was misrepresenting who he actually was, Yeah, 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:46.920 a professor rather than a high school student. But other 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:50.000 than that, everything else about it seems to be pretty neat. 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:53.360 Yeah, except for the fact that it's dangerous and illegal. 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:57.240 Yes. So one of the people that he corresponded with, 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:59.200 I think he corresponded with him the most, was named 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.360 Donald erb e Erb and he was the guy who 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.120 was the head of the department that produces isotopes. If 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:09.840 you need isotopes, you can go to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.320 This is not you, but like, if you are in 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.760 some sort of industry that uses isotopes, and this herb 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.120 will be like, I got you, I got you covered. 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:22.520 For some reason, they come in these little baggies with 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:26.600 like card suits printed all over him. It's weird. That's 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:27.880 an herb kind of touch. 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:29.160 It's so nice. 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:32.080 But he was. He worked for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:36.400 and nobody helped David Hahn more than Donald erb did 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:37.560 again unwittingly. 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.400 Yeah, absolutely, So should we take a break. 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:42.680 We should? 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:44.600 Okay, all right, I was about to keep going, but 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:46.720 let's take a break, and we're going to talk about 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.600 his pursuit of radioactive materials right after this. 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:51.320 I don't know. 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:10.040 M M. 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:17.880 By the way, Chuck, it's the Chipewa Valley, Big Red, 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.760 which appears to be a giant cardinal. If you ask me, 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:26.240 that was a that was a missed, missed opportunity. Chipmunks, 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.280 chip chipmunks, the rabbit chipmunks. 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:32.040 Yeah, I love it, all right. So when we left off, 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:37.640 David han was getting serious about building this uh nuclear reactor. 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:43.000 He needs material to do that, so and we should 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:44.720 point out that, you know, I said it was dangerous. 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:47.480 It was dangerous. He did know this. He still pursued it, 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:51.080 but he like he had a lead shield that he 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:55.440 worked with. He threw away his contaminated clothes. He left 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:57.640 his shoes in there and didn't take them in his house, so. 0:15:57.760 --> 0:15:59.440 It was like it was driving shoes, but in a 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.760 potting show he was building a breeder reactor. 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:03.960 Do you have driving shoes? Is that a thing? 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.520 I know that it's a thing from watching old episodes 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:08.080 of Frasier. 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:10.040 I've never heard that. 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.680 Yes, you've seen driving shoes. People wear them and they're 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:15.680 totally unaware that you're not supposed to wear them out 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:17.680 of your car. But it's like, if your car is 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:20.760 so nice, you take off your outdoor shoes and put 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.920 on your driving shoes that never leave your car, and 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.240 that way you don't get car dirty. Yeah. 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:28.520 I don't know if I have seen them. I guess 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:29.520 I just you have. You did? 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:32.520 They're like they look kind of like a cross between 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:35.160 the loafer and a moccasin. And then the dead giveaway 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:39.000 is the tread on the bottom comes up the back 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:41.760 of the heel as well. Because of the position that 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:44.000 your foot is in when you're driving, it gives you grip. 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:46.280 All right, I'm gonna have to look this up. You've 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:52.560 seen them all right, all right, so that's amazing. Fifty 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:54.280 two years old never knew about this. 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:57.320 I was only probably forty when I learned about it, 0:16:57.320 --> 0:16:57.920 So I don't feel bad. 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:02.960 Yeah, all right. So he starts looking for materials, and 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:05.080 these are just a few sort of stories about he 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:08.960 would go about that he wanted some amoricium two forty 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:12.560 one for this neutron gun. In the booklet that he 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:16.439 got from the Boy Scouts said you can get the 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:20.600 stuff in smoke detectors. So he tries to steal them 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:24.359 from the Boy Scout camp, got caught and sent home early. 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.760 Then he writes smoke detector companies saying I need a 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:31.280 bunch of these things for a school project. Eventually one 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.600 company sold him one hundred broken ones for one hundred bucks. 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.600 Couldn't figure out how to find this amoresium, so got 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:41.760 in touch with another smoke detector company. It was like, oh, well, 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:44.440 here's where you find it, and was able to extract 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:48.959 amorsium enough to like weld together with a blowtorch. 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:51.880 Yes, So remember I was talking about. The neutron gun 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.879 is a lump of lead with a cavity hollowed out 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:58.160 and then you put your radioactive material in the cavity 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:04.000 of lead. No radioactive material, that's right, Amrisium is I 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.240 looked up why it would be in smoke detectors. Did 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:10.000 you see why? No, it's really interesting just for a second. 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:15.280 So a marisium it because of its radioactive decay. It 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:20.119 creates a flow of ions, positive and negative ions that 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.400 are are moved across like this metal plate. And there's 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:27.560 a constant movement of ions that this americium is creating 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:31.520 from the air around it. And when smoke interacts with 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:35.200 those ions, it actually breaks that flow. That flow is 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:37.960 detected by the smoke detector, which triggers it to go off. 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.200 Isn't that just so bizarre. That's how your smoke detector works. 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:43.520 And that's how they still work. 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:47.119 Yeah, oh yeah, there's still a marisium in smoke detectors today. 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:48.200 Amazing. 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:48.879 Yeah. 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:52.800 So you said he built his own Geiger counter. I 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:54.800 don't know if it was this one or if he 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:56.640 ended up getting the other one, but he would drive 0:18:56.680 --> 0:19:01.879 around Upper Michigan with this Geiger counter on, just looking 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:06.240 for naturally occurring uranium out in the world. And then 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:09.280 eventually he's like, this isn't working out, so he got 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:13.119 a Czechoslovakian firm that the NRC told him about and 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:14.840 sourced uranium. 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:17.600 Or Yeah, he had that Geiger counter mounted to his 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.679 dashboard and apparently anytime he drove he had it turned on. 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:22.320 Isn't that amazing? 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:24.240 Yeah, I mean that's what you gotta find this stuff. 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:26.879 And he actually did find some stuff called pitch blend 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:30.480 and it's a source of low grade uranium and he 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:33.119 tried to extract it, but he couldn't purify it enough. So, 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.080 like you said, he was like, well, just buy some 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:39.240 pure uranium from a firm in Czechoslovakia that he heard about, 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:41.879 either from the pamphlet or from Donald or one of 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:42.280 the two. 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.159 Yeah. Another thing he did was the little mantle like 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:48.280 the little mesh sacks that you tie on to a 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:53.040 gas lantern. He bought thousands of those because they have 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:59.000 little tiny amounts of thorium two thirty two, and so 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:01.560 you know, he buys that of these from surplus stores, 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:05.760 buys thousands of dollars in lithium batteries to extract lithium. 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:10.879 So he's been very you know, I think, showing a 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:12.760 lot of initiative at least how to find this stuff. 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.200 Yeah, I mean, like he's using is his after school 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.440 job money to buy one thousand dollars in lithium batteries 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.080 to purify the thorium that he got from the gas 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:24.639 lanterns that he purchased and extracted it from. Like, I 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:28.479 can't imagine how much time and effort this took. And 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:30.840 by the way, he did purify that thorium pretty well. 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:33.440 I saw that he got it to nine thousand times 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:37.760 the level found in nature of radioactivity and about one 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:40.320 hundred and seventy times the level that you would need 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:43.360 a license from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to possess. 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:46.520 He also went around, of course, where you're going to 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:52.720 find old, dangerous radioactive things, junk yards and antique shops. 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:56.399 So he would take that Geiger counter into a junk 0:20:56.440 --> 0:20:58.960 shop or an antique store and he would walk around 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:03.040 until something lit up, like radium paint if you remember 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.600 our I think it was pretty excellent podcasts on the 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:09.439 Radium Girls, and he would find like radium paint in 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:10.119 an old clock. 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:14.399 Yeah. Yeah, he found a vial of paint just tucked 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:17.320 away inside of one and that then he really had 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:22.040 his radioactive material for his neutron gun. He actually stepped 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:24.760 it up and built a second gun. He'd also from 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:29.119 corresponding with Donald Herb, gotten even better at creating a 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:32.960 neutron gun that was going to be useful in creating 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:37.840 a nuclear reaction. He also found that when he used 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:41.840 the radium on I think the thorium that he purified, 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:45.200 he was trying to trigger a chain reaction by bombarding 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:47.760 thorium with neutrons. That's what he was trying to do. 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:51.480 He found that the thorium wasn't converting into uranium like 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.280