1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:03,079 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 2: This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 2: and speaker. 4 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 3: And this is Sarah hart Unger. I'm a mother of three, 5 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 3: a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are 6 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 3: two working parents who love our careers and our families. 7 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. 8 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 2: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 9 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 2: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 10 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: out long term career goals. We want you to get 11 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: the most out of life. 12 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. 13 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 4: In this episode, we are going to be talking about 14 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 4: feeling done. That's sometimes elusive feeling of whether we are 15 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 4: done with a workday or not, if we're on top 16 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 4: of our work or not. How we can create that 17 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 4: feeling at the end of any given work day or 18 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 4: just let it go, which is another concept we'll be 19 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 4: talking about too. But before we get into that, we 20 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 4: just thought we'd touch base on a couple of things. 21 00:00:58,120 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: This is airing towards the end of summer. 22 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 4: Clo to the end of summer for you, Sarah, then 23 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 4: for me, Right, you guys start school pretty. 24 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 3: Early, Yes, we start school, I guess it'll be about 25 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 3: less than two weeks from the airing of this episode, 26 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 3: so it does go fast down in Florida in the South, 27 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:16,759 Speaker 3: I guess, but it starts earlier, so that's good too. 28 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, so why don't you give us an update on 29 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 4: this Monday through Friday camp because this is sort of 30 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 4: a different hybrid camp concept that you guys wind up 31 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 4: doing this year. 32 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a unique concept and I had actually 33 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 3: never really heard about it until a couple of years 34 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 3: or heard of anything like this. But there are some 35 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 3: camps semi local to me, like think thirty to sixty 36 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 3: minutes away, that do a Monday to Friday program where 37 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 3: you drop your kids off at like eight am on 38 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 3: Monday and you pick them up at three thirty pm 39 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 3: on Friday. So it's like they have a four night 40 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 3: sleepover times three. They're in three week sessions. I guess 41 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 3: if you wanted to maximize your camp weeks, you could 42 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 3: do all nine weeks. We only just did three weeks 43 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 3: of this and then filled in the gaps with day 44 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 3: camps and travel and other things. Last year, just to 45 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 3: refresh any listener's memories or tell new listeners, we did 46 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 3: the traditional four weeks sleep away camp for my older 47 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 3: two kids, who at the time were eight and ten 48 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 3: they're now nine and eleven, and they enjoyed it, but 49 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 3: then at the end decided they wanted to do something 50 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 3: different this year. And then when a neighbor mentioned this camp, 51 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 3: one big selling point was that it was held on 52 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 3: a college campus, which meant air conditioning and no rustic accommodations. 53 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 3: So that won over at least one of my kids, 54 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 3: and then the other one wanted to stay with the 55 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 3: other one, and so everything ended up going in that direction, 56 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 3: and they enjoyed it. Like I was skeptical because I 57 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 3: felt like I was joking that it was worse of 58 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 3: both worlds, because it was like, okay, like it's all 59 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 3: the headache of like having to pack your kids up 60 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 3: and like unpack them and do all the laundry, but 61 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 3: like none of the bliss of like well not bliss, 62 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 3: but like none of the really uninterrupted time to like 63 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 3: travel or do anything like that. But by the end 64 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 3: of the three weeks, I actually kind of I kind 65 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 3: of liked it. Like the weekends had a little bit 66 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 3: of a celebratory feel. We hadn't seen them all week 67 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 3: It was just enough time to miss them, but not 68 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 3: enough time to be stressful in any way for them. 69 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 3: I think they enjoyed themselves. They don't allow screens at 70 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 3: this camp, so I knew they weren't like having tons 71 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 3: of video game or TV time, and it was kind 72 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 3: of low key and much less expensive than a traditional 73 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 3: like four week overnight camp. I don't know what they're 74 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 3: going to do next year. I have offered all of 75 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 3: the options. I said, you can go to day camp, 76 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 3: you can go to specialty camps, you can go to 77 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 3: this camp again, you can go to overnight camp. My 78 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 3: only option I have not offering is you can stay 79 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 3: home and do nothing, because I just don't think that 80 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 3: would be good for any of us. And we'll see. 81 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 3: They've kind of thrown out all kinds of different ideas 82 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 3: as to what they might want to do next year. 83 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 3: But I thought the Monday to Friday was pretty cool, 84 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 3: and we'll see. 85 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I guess it's slightly more convenient, I mean 86 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 4: getting them there and such than versus these like traditional 87 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 4: sleeping way camps up up north. I mean, although part 88 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 4: of the thing is that then they're away from the 89 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 4: Florida heats, right. 90 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 3: So they have Florida flights for the sleep away camp, 91 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 3: So it was actually the easiest thing ever. I mean, 92 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 3: the ping is getting your luggage and stuff up there, 93 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 3: but they actually have shipping companies that come to your 94 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 3: house and deliver the trunks, and we just drove them 95 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 3: to the Fort Lauderdale Airport and picked them up from 96 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 3: there last year, So it was actually incredibly convenient. Visiting 97 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 3: day was a little bit more of a headache, but 98 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 3: then it was a nice excuse to get out of 99 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 3: the heat. So I actually think logistics wise, that was 100 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 3: probably easier, believe it or not, But neither are that bad. 101 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 3: This camp is not that far. 102 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, well, good to know, so people might 103 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 4: want to look into that option. 104 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. 105 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 4: I guess my update I can talk a little bit 106 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 4: about my writing retreat. 107 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: I had hinted at this in a previous episode. 108 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 4: I wound up going to Littitz, Pennsylvania from July seven 109 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 4: to ten. I checked myself into a hotel, the will 110 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 4: bur it's the old chocolate factory, it's now it's part 111 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 4: of the Tapestry collection I guess Hilton or whatever. Pretty 112 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 4: nice hotel, and it's such a cute little downtown. It's 113 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:02,239 Speaker 4: one of these traditional Pennsylvania small towns, but slightly better 114 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 4: capitalized than some of the small towns that are kind 115 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 4: of falling apart. This one has a pretty thriving downtown 116 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 4: with a lot of restaurants. I ate a a really 117 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 4: cool Mexican place called Tide House. I went to the 118 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 4: Appalachian Brewing Company one night to get a nice craft 119 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 4: beer and a burger, and in between those meals, I 120 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 4: sat at my desk for ten hours a day and 121 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 4: worked at the novel and had a really good time, 122 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 4: feeling just so into it. It's fun to be into 123 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 4: a manuscript and knowing you are making it better and 124 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 4: seeing the words transform. Time just flies by. It's really 125 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 4: that state of flow that people sometimes talk about. 126 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: That's definitely when I get in that state. 127 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 4: And one of the reasons I wanted to do the 128 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 4: retreat is so I could be in that state, because 129 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 4: it's hard to achieve that when you're at home and 130 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 4: being interrupted by various things, whether you wish to be 131 00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 4: or not. 132 00:05:58,360 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: So yeah, that was. 133 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 4: A really fun and it reminded me of my writing 134 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 4: retreat six years ago that I recently found the logs 135 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 4: for because you know, longtime listeners know that I track 136 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 4: my time, and I have started looking at the old 137 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 4: cycle of the same date. So my logs are always 138 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 4: named after the Monday, and so this summer it was, 139 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,359 Speaker 4: you know, July ten, July seventeen, July twenty four. But 140 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 4: it turns out those were also the dates in twenty 141 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 4: seventeen based on how the things, so I have to 142 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 4: now save them as twenty twenty. 143 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: Three, not just the date. But so I go back 144 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: and look at the old one. 145 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 4: And so I looked at July seventeen from twenty seventeen, 146 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 4: and I found that my retreat in Bear Creek, when 147 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 4: I was working on off the clock, was there. And 148 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 4: I then saw a entry on the Thursday when I 149 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 4: was home ten am work and then it said shoe 150 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 4: re podcast. So that was the conversation at which best 151 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,799 Speaker 4: of both worlds was hatched. So isn't that exciting? 152 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 3: I love it. I have a question about the retreat 153 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 3: when you were spending these long days working, because those 154 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 3: are pretty that's a lot of hours. Did it feel 155 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 3: like it just went really fast because you think you 156 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 3: were in such flow, Like did you feel tired at 157 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 3: the end of those days, because I just feel like 158 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 3: that's a lot of hours. To be spending on something 159 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 3: intense and like mono mono tesca. I don't know. 160 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it was intense, but it's I mean, 161 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 4: it's literally when I'm happiest, so it's you know, I 162 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 4: don't know what to say about that. I mean, yeah, 163 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 4: I didn't have the energy to do other things afterwards. 164 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 4: I mean, I watched HGTV at night after I was 165 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 4: done with that. But it was really important to me 166 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 4: to get through it and to use this time, and 167 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 4: I would take breaks every three hours or something. Partly 168 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 4: I had to eat right, like, so I had to 169 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 4: get food, although I tried to avoid that. 170 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: I like buy a sandwich in the morning and bring 171 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: it in so I could eat that. 172 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 4: But I walked around town things like that. So it 173 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 4: wasn't ten uninterrupted hours. It would be like three hours, 174 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 4: take a break, four hours, take a break, three hours crash. 175 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: That's more or less how it. 176 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 3: Works, makes sense. Oh my gosh, it sounds awesome. I 177 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 3: don't know that I've ever taken such a work heavy retreat. 178 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 3: I mean, our retreats are work heavy, but not quite 179 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 3: to that extent. But it's something I'd be interested in 180 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 3: doing someday. I could see if you ever happily productive. 181 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, a big project like that that requires that sort 182 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 4: of intense editing kind of stuff. I think I don't 183 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 4: do it for creating first drafts because I think that 184 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,079 Speaker 4: would be utterly exhausting that. I mean, you can't really 185 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 4: crank out new words for ten hours. You can edit 186 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 4: the words you have. I mean maybe somebody will write 187 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 4: in and say that's how I write, but I don't know. 188 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 4: It wouldn't work for me. 189 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 3: That kind of makes sense. I could see it as 190 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 3: like if I've done the creative work and then spending 191 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 3: the retreat like putting together the course from the stuff 192 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 3: I've already generated, If that makes sense or something. But anyway, 193 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 3: super cool, I like caring about that. 194 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. 195 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 4: Well, speaking of long work days and when they are over, 196 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 4: that is the topic of this episode. So a couple 197 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 4: weeks ago, Sarah posted on her blog about one of 198 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 4: her observations of the difference between her clinical practice work 199 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 4: and then her more entrepreneurially all creative work. So maybe 200 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 4: you could just anyone who doesn't read the shoebox, you 201 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 4: can give them a quick rundown of that. 202 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: Sure. 203 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 3: Yes, it was inspired by a day that I had 204 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 3: had where I had gotten a lot done, but I like, 205 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 3: I just had this nagging feeling of like when do 206 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 3: I feel like that satisfied, Like and I've checked off 207 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 3: all the boxes and I'm done, and like I know 208 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 3: I've had a successful day, because when I have clinic days, 209 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 3: I know that when I have seen all my patients, 210 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 3: written all my notes, and I have a little check 211 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 3: boxes for myself when I do all this, and when 212 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 3: I've answered all the staff messages and my inboxes zero, 213 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 3: like I can just like shut it off and feel 214 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 3: like I mean, obviously stuff is going to accumulate in 215 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 3: the background, but at that moment, I feel good. I 216 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 3: feel done, and I can like kind of be at 217 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 3: peace and just enjoy the rest of my evening knowing 218 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 3: that like work is over, if that makes sense. Yet, 219 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 3: when I'm working for myself, even when I'm getting a 220 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 3: high volume of things done, and even it's not like 221 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 3: I don't go in with the plan, I mean, come on, 222 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 3: I'm me, I'm gonna make a plan. I have stuff 223 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 3: to do, I've identified my priorities, I have my checkboxes 224 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 3: or whatever. But at the same time, even when I've 225 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 3: checked most of them off or all of them off. 226 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 3: Sometimes I just still don't feel that delineation and I'm 227 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 3: struggling with it, and I think it's just because it's 228 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 3: new to me. I think also being at home makes 229 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 3: it a little bit more challenging, because if I were 230 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 3: in a workspace, there might be like a moment when 231 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, I've checked off my boxes and now 232 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 3: like that's enough, so I'm leaving, and therefore there's closure. 233 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 3: So I think part of it could also be location related. 234 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I really think it's both. 235 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 4: My first job out of college was at a daily newspaper, 236 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 4: and you know, at some point the paper goes to bed, 237 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 4: like it's got to be printed for the next day. 238 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 4: Obviously this has changed more in two decades because there's 239 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 4: more of a more people read online now, so it's 240 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 4: more of a continual thing. But most papers that print 241 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 4: still at some point the printer has to print it, 242 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 4: so it has to be done for those purposes, because 243 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 4: no one's really running around yelling stop the presses less 244 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 4: it's I. 245 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: Don't know anyways. 246 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:24,559 Speaker 4: So and I also had pretty low levels of responsibility, 247 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 4: so at any given night, once I had commuted home, 248 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 4: I was done, and I didn't have to think about 249 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 4: it until the next day, and it was you know, 250 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 4: kind of a I kind of liked that experience. I liked, 251 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 4: you know, being that sense that like, Okay, I don't 252 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 4: have to do anything till I'm back. And then it 253 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 4: immediately disappeared when I began working for myself for a 254 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 4: couple of reasons, Like you said, working from home, because 255 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 4: there's no obvious delineation between work and the rest of life, 256 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 4: and also that there's always something else you could be doing. 257 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 4: When you work for yourself, there's no ever like, oh, 258 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 4: well should I do this or not do this? 259 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 1: You just you could do anything. 260 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 4: It could fill all the available time or whatever, and 261 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 4: you never know if it's the right thing to do 262 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 4: or not. 263 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you just have to choose. 264 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 4: But because of that, there's definitely not that same sense 265 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 4: of being done. And you know, at first you're like, 266 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 4: how we've got to get used to this. It's different, 267 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 4: But eventually I kind of realize, well, I don't know, 268 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 4: you don't have to be done, like you know, you 269 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 4: don't have to be done in any psychological sense to 270 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 4: decide that you are done for the day, even if 271 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 4: it's just for a few hours to go do something else, 272 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 4: and I did wind up joining you know, several choirs 273 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 4: when I first lived in New York City and was 274 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 4: self employed, because then it forced me to be done 275 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 4: three evenings. I would go out and you know, I 276 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 4: might check email when I came back at ten o'clock, 277 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 4: but I probably wasn't really going to do that much. 278 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 4: So you know, at least three days a week, I 279 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 4: was done six or so, and that made a pretty 280 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 4: good delineation between it. But yeah, I think I think 281 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 4: a lot of jobs these have more of that malleable 282 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 4: sense of whether you are done or not, and so 283 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 4: it's a question people can sort of think, like I 284 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 4: think it's also a personality thing. I I'm just sensing 285 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 4: from our conversations over the past six years that you 286 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 4: like a little bit more of a strict separation between 287 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 4: work and the rest of life. 288 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: I do. 289 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 3: And it's it's not like I would say, oh, I like, 290 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 3: don't ever want to do a script on a weekend 291 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 3: or something like that, because you know very well that 292 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 3: sometimes I do or sometimes like that's where it's going 293 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 3: to fit in, and but I want to like have 294 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 3: thought through that and have like planned for it. I 295 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 3: guess like I don't want to feel like there are 296 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 3: lingering assignments that don't have a home. I guess is 297 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 3: what it is, and I do crave. I guess, well, 298 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 3: you said something really interesting about the choir just then, 299 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 3: because I think part of it is that, like if 300 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 3: I'm home and I'm working and I have childcare and 301 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 3: my kids are home, like there's this moment when like 302 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 3: I have something else to do that's specific, Like maybe 303 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 3: if I was like, I will be at a shut 304 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 3: down place by at exactly six, and that's when we're 305 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 3: gonna have dinner together, because we don't always have dinner 306 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 3: together depending on like what everybody's plans, our schedules are, 307 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 3: et cetera. And so maybe if there was like a 308 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 3: more specific delineation of what I was going to that 309 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 3: would help with the psychological But yes, I do think 310 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 3: I have a more deep seated psychological need for that compartmentalization. 311 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 3: And maybe some of that's protective because well, as we 312 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 3: were recording this, I got paid from work and I 313 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 3: actually just turned my phone off because I knew it 314 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 3: was not something urgent, but I also knew they probably 315 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 3: would keep paging, and it's very hard to podcast well 316 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 3: if I'm thinking about clinical stuff, and so turning my 317 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 3: phone off meant it wouldn't continue to buzz, and I 318 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 3: had to compartmentalize that, just like I don't tend to 319 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 3: like respond to like a bunch of podcasts emails while 320 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 3: I'm in the middle of clinic because I can't do that. Well, 321 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 3: So maybe the compartmental Maybe I'm just a bad multitasker, 322 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 3: or maybe I just really prefer it that way because 323 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 3: I have a lot of diverse sets of things that 324 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 3: I need to do. 325 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think there's that. There's also the question, 326 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 4: I mean, if you're working for somebody else and they 327 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 4: have zero boundaries, that's more of a problem, right, And 328 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 4: so none of this is to say that, you know, 329 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 4: if you work for someone that your boss should be 330 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 4: emailing you at eight o'clock at night and expecting you 331 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 4: to answer quickly, like we are not talking about that. 332 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 4: And this is more of a function of I think 333 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 4: that entrepreneurial aspect of a job as well, like that 334 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 4: it's you don't have to do anything, it's that you are. 335 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: Choosing to do. And if you are choosing, then. 336 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 4: You know, drawing those strict lines sort of starts to 337 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 4: make a little bit less sense, and I can get 338 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 4: at this personality sometimes when I have talked to people 339 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 4: about the split shift, those who have read some of 340 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 4: my work know that one of the strategies that a 341 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 4: lot of women, in particular who have young kids and 342 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 4: have jobs that require more than forty hours a week 343 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 4: of work will do. And this was even more of 344 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 4: a thing when the commute was an aspect of more 345 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 4: people's jobs, but that you would end work at a 346 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 4: relatively reasonable time, go home, spend the evening with your family, 347 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 4: and then spend some more time working at home after 348 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 4: the kids go to bed. And that was a way 349 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 4: that a lot of people could get up to fifty 350 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 4: hours a week versus forty, but still have that time 351 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 4: with their young children who go to bed relatively early. 352 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 4: And some people, when I suggest it'd be like, yeah, 353 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 4: that sounds great, that's what I should do. That would 354 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 4: allow me to feel more on top of things given 355 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 4: everything that's going on, And other people would be like, 356 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 4: that's the worst idea I have ever heard in the 357 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 4: entire world. I mean, there was one person who reviewed 358 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 4: I know how she does it for one British newspaper 359 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 4: said that like the one time she'd done the split. 360 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: Shift, she felt ill with so pity. I was like, well, Okay. 361 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 4: That's somebody who really likes to have strict lines between 362 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 4: work and the rest of life. 363 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: And you know, I think it's a personality thing. 364 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 4: I think it is, but you know, I mean, and 365 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 4: we'll get into this more after our ad break. But 366 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 4: even if you do have that sense that work should 367 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 4: be work at home should be home, I think there 368 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 4: are some upsides occasionally for people who do have really 369 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 4: full personal lives and being a bit more malleable about 370 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 4: when things happen. So we will get to that right 371 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 4: after this break. 372 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 3: Okay, we are back and I can share my personal 373 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 3: feelings about split shift. I guess I think it's great 374 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 3: for other people if they like to work that way. 375 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 3: It's never really going to work with me, mostly just 376 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 3: because of my like circadian rhythms, and I am useless 377 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 3: after like seven pm, and so the idea of working 378 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 3: at that time absolutely fills me with dread to even 379 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 3: think about it. I'm much more likely to do a 380 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 3: split shift segment like on the weekends. 381 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 4: Or in the mornings, right, Like, I mean, I know 382 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 4: you use your mornings for other things now, but if 383 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 4: you were going to do it, that's when you would 384 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 4: do it. 385 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 3: Yes, back before I was like obsessively training for marathons, 386 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 3: I did do some work in the mornings, and I've 387 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 3: kind of displaced some of my I mean, I would 388 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 3: write my blog post usually in the morning, which is 389 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 3: now I guess truly could be considered part of my work. 390 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 3: But now I've kind of moved that to the lunch hour, 391 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 3: and that's been working really well for me. But I 392 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 3: used to like walk at lunch. So yeah, everything just 393 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 3: kind of gets like swapped around the way it works 394 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 3: for each person. But I you're right, I'm inherently less 395 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 3: horrified at the idea of a morning And I used 396 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 3: to like, if I had a presentation, do that was important, 397 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 3: I would rather set my alarm at some absolutely obscene 398 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 3: hour because I knew I could just power through with 399 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 3: my morning coffee in an hour or two versus stay 400 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 3: up late. But that's just personal preference and kind of 401 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 3: my own bodily rhythms. 402 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 4: Well, so let's talk before we get a little bit 403 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 4: more into the existential aspect of this. But if you 404 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 4: are interested in having a sense of completion, and you 405 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 4: are not in a job where it's like you get 406 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 4: in your car at five pm and you leave. If 407 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 4: you have that sort of job, there is an obvious 408 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 4: demarcation between work and home because I mean, yes, obviously 409 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 4: work can follow you home, but if you're not going 410 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 4: to sleep at your office, there is a point where 411 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 4: you are going to leave, and that creates an obvious 412 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 4: line of. 413 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: The day is done. Right. 414 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 4: So if you don't have that, if you are working 415 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 4: for yourself, if you are working at home, what are 416 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 4: some things you can do? 417 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: You've talked about a few things that you were thinking 418 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: of trying. 419 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, And actually I have to give some of my 420 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 3: readers credit and stuff, because people had some interesting sign congestions. 421 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 3: And I have to say the academics are probably one 422 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 3: of the loudest I don't know groups that are very 423 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 3: interested in figuring out how to get that kind of 424 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 3: done feeling, probably in part because again they're never going 425 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 3: to be done. Their work is so nebulous. A lot 426 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 3: of them have a lot of built in flexibility and 427 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 3: yet there's always so much stuff to do, so it 428 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 3: makes sense to me. But the first one was a 429 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 3: lot of people referenced cal Newport's quitting time or shut 430 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 3: down ritual, and I do think it is. I love 431 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 3: his fixed schedule productivity concept, although I kind of laugh 432 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 3: at it in a way I don't laugh at it, 433 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 3: but Okay, his concept was you give yourself a schedule 434 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 3: and you kind of fit your work around that. And 435 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 3: I do think this is kind of a unique idea, 436 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 3: like when applied to something like a college student, because 437 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 3: college students are notorious for like I can do it whenever, 438 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 3: and so I'll procrastinate all day long and do it 439 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 3: at midnight, and you know, like it doesn't work out 440 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 3: very well. So I think in that context it's an 441 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 3: original and interesting idea. But then like most many women, 442 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 3: if they choose to have children, end up in fixed 443 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 3: scheduled productivity like absolutely by default, so we wouldn't even 444 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 3: like think of otherwise. And like the ultimate exercise in 445 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 3: fixed scheduled productivity is pumping, right, like because if you 446 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,959 Speaker 3: know that you like need to be there for, like 447 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 3: or want to be there for like the last morning 448 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: feeding and then the first post wark feeding, and then 449 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 3: you have X amount of hours between each feeding, like, 450 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 3: you know exactly what you have to get done in 451 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 3: terms of very squeezed work hours and what your output 452 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 3: needs to be and so I don't know, I've done that. 453 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 3: You do feel done. It's not the most fun way 454 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 3: to do it, but yeah, so that that concept I 455 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 3: think is really interesting. But then also for many women 456 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 3: just sort of like really a. 457 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 4: Six pm daycare pickup you've got I know, your nanny's 458 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 4: supposed to leave at five thirty or whatever. It is like, yeah, 459 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 4: you have a certain amount of time if you are 460 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 4: the one who is taking over from the childcare. I 461 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 4: mean that's just yeah, the reality you have a fixed 462 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 4: schedule then and so. 463 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 3: You got it. So in general, obviously that could be 464 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 3: either parent. But that's why I think that's kind of 465 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 3: funny but interesting. There is the idea of just a 466 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 3: shutdown ritual, like having something you check off or like 467 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 3: maybe you make your plan for the next day, like 468 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 3: something you do every day to make it feel like 469 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 3: you're complete, And I think that's a nice idea. Some 470 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 3: people love focus Mate, which is where it's an app 471 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 3: where you're like paired with another person and you basically 472 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 3: set your intentions. I think you're pared or you can 473 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 3: do it in a group. I've never used this app, 474 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 3: but people love it, especially I think academics and those 475 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 3: who have like more nebulous kind of work objectives but 476 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 3: still need to get a lot done. So you like 477 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 3: set up your intention, you set up your amount of work, 478 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 3: and then you're kind of like in a zoom room 479 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 3: with other people working, and then when it's over, you're done, 480 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 3: and Laura gives me a is give me a face. 481 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 3: But people pay for this and people like this. So 482 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 3: it's a thing. 483 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: I think you could have friends. I mean, I guess 484 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: you could tell you that think it's an a bliger. 485 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 3: I think it's an obliger thing. Like I think obligers 486 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 3: like love this. And so yeah, there's that, and then 487 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 3: there's some more stuff. 488 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: There's more stuff, the themes, the theme lead. 489 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 3: That's what I wanted to mention. So someone mentioned that, 490 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 3: like you could have Tuesday be writing day and then 491 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 3: Thursday is recording day, and like you kind of know, 492 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 3: like these are my tasks that I do on Tuesdays. 493 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 3: These are my tasks that I do on Thursdays. I 494 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 3: just made those up as things. It could also be 495 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 3: like meeting day or admin day or whatever, and that 496 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 3: would kind of be a way because then you know 497 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 3: that like, oh, you know, maybe I have a lot 498 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 3: of other meeting stuff to do. But since today's admin 499 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 3: day and I've cleared out my admin, I'm done. 500 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think these are all great ideas. 501 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 4: I mean, I one of the things I do is 502 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 4: towards the end of my day, which inevitably, I mean, 503 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 4: there is something I have to do. I mean, it's 504 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 4: eating dinner with my family, it's driving a kid somewhere, 505 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 4: which might happen at a different time any given day. 506 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 1: So around that. 507 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 4: Time I often have created my to do list for 508 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 4: the next day, and it's like past Laura has assigned it. 509 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 4: When I get there in the morning, look at it, 510 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 4: and those are the things I'm going to do for 511 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,959 Speaker 4: the day, and something could come up, but generally, if 512 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 4: I've crossed all those things off, like I feel like 513 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 4: it's been a good day because past Laura has decided 514 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 4: that this is what would make a good day. And 515 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 4: now I've done those things, and so we can move 516 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 4: on and make the list for the next day. And 517 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 4: I'm always pulling these off my weekly priority list, and 518 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 4: again you end the week with everything crossed off. 519 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: And when you have done that, then you can feel done. 520 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 4: And it is not impossible to end the week with 521 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 4: everything crossed off, Like, don't assign yourself something you are 522 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 4: not going to do. 523 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: It's it's just. 524 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 3: Very straightforward impossible as long as your boss, who is 525 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 3: yourself creating these lists for you, is doing them with 526 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 3: a realistic eye as to what you have going on 527 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 3: and what your energies are going to be, et cetera. 528 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: Which I mean that's self knowledge, right, Like, yes, you know. 529 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 4: One of the reasons to track your time to look 530 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 4: back on each week and see what you have accomplished. 531 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 4: And then you'd be like, oh, yes, I can do 532 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 4: x amount in one week with the normal complement of emergencies. 533 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 4: I cannot do why in a week with the normal 534 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 4: complement of emergency. So I shouldn't set that as the 535 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 4: baseline goal. I mean, if everything goes perfectly, yay, go 536 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 4: figure out why get it done, But maybe not set 537 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 4: that as the goal that has to get crossed off, 538 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 4: because then then you lose confidence in the to do list. 539 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 4: Like if you're putting stuff on the to do list 540 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 4: that you're not actually going to do, then it's a 541 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 4: useless document, right. It's not setting priorities, it's not structuring 542 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 4: your time. 543 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: It's just a wish list. So that doesn't. 544 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 4: It to do means today basically, and if you're not 545 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 4: going to do it today, don't put it on. 546 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 1: The list for the day. That's I don't know, that's 547 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: total productivity. 548 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 3: Totally agree, and I think it's worth spending time getting 549 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 3: better at that. 550 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: Like all of this, it's a skill. 551 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 3: It's yes, it's a practice. It's a skill. You learn 552 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 3: from your mistakes. You pay attention to your time, You 553 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 3: see what works and what didn't. You don't beat yourself 554 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 3: up when it doesn't work, but you actually do learn 555 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 3: from it. Then maybe next time your list needs to 556 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 3: be pared down. 557 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 4: And yeah, and a list was sort of like the 558 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,040 Speaker 4: ninety five percent confidence interval of what your life is 559 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 4: going to look like. Like I'm not say like that 560 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 4: if your house catches on fire, you're going to get 561 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 4: through everything on your list, Like, no, you probably aren't, 562 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 4: But like if you had to pick up a kid 563 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 4: from daycare at one o'clock, you should still be able 564 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 4: to get through this list. 565 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: That's how you need to structure it. 566 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 4: So anyway, I think the theme days is also a 567 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 4: great idea for people who struggle with like feeling like, oh, well, 568 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 4: I should be doing marketing now. And I'm not, and 569 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 4: therefore I feel like I'm not done, and I, you know, 570 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 4: should spend my entire day doing that. Or you know, 571 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 4: it's if you know that every Wednesday afternoon is marketing afternoon, 572 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 4: Like if you know that Friday morning is administration time, 573 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 4: you know you're going to get to those with a 574 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 4: backup slot built in, because you know, if Wednesday afternoon 575 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 4: gets taken away from you, you do still need to 576 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 4: do your marketing, so figure out when that could happen. 577 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 4: But the theme day can also give you a sense 578 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 4: that you are getting to everything, that the ferrist wheel 579 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 4: keeps turning and the stuff keeps coming up, so you 580 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 4: don't necessarily have this sense that you need to spin 581 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 4: it and spin it and spin it and build a 582 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 4: bigger Ferris wheel and anything else that we can. 583 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: Put in that metaphor. 584 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 4: How about email, because this is the thing that trips 585 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 4: a lot of people up, Like, what were some of 586 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 4: your suggestions for that? 587 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean, I am an inbox zero proponent, 588 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,199 Speaker 3: but I am not a fan of trying to keep 589 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 3: it at zero all the time or every single day. 590 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 3: I actually think it's great to ignore your email because 591 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 3: how else are you going to get not ignore it, 592 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 3: but like not make that your focus for a given 593 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 3: work day, because how else are you going to focus 594 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 3: on other things if you're always looking at what's coming in. 595 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 3: And so I do think that like kind of as 596 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 3: part of a theme choosing when is going to be 597 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 3: your kind of email attack time. It can be really 598 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 3: really helpful in having that off your plate the rest 599 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 3: of the time. For me, it tends me a Friday 600 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 3: afternoon activity. Sometimes it hangs over into Saturday mornings. See 601 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 3: that's where I prefer weekends to that second shift because 602 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 3: sometimes there are certain kid activities where I'm just sitting 603 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 3: there and it's a great email processing time. And yeah, 604 00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 3: it does free me up from feeling like I have 605 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 3: to deal with that all week. And so if you 606 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 3: email me, you might notice that you'll hear from me 607 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 3: on a Friday fun fat off it is. 608 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, I tend to put it as email triage, and 609 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 4: I put it on my calendar maybe you know, Tuesday 610 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 4: and Friday or Wednesday and Friday or something like that, 611 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 4: and I've gotten to stuff that I needed an urgent response. 612 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 4: It's this is for the other stuff that like I'm like, oh, 613 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 4: I got to think about that or I don't feel 614 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 4: like getting to that right now, or this isn't urgent. 615 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 4: I'll deal with it in a few days, and then 616 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 4: I go back through until. 617 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: I get to current with that. You know, when I 618 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: do my email triage. If you are going to. 619 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 4: Do a bonus session though, right, because Sarah, you are 620 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 4: then trying to get to yourself to inbox zero on 621 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 4: Saturday morning. But it's not that you had a thousand 622 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 4: emails in there or that you're getting to inbox zero, 623 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 4: like you have a very specific amount that you're going. 624 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 3: At that point. There's like twenty or something. Correct. 625 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I. 626 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 4: Think that's helpful too, Like if you are going to 627 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 4: do a bonus session at some point, it does help 628 00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 4: to know what you're gonna do, Like if you're doing 629 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 4: the split shift. Don't be like I got to get 630 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 4: through a thousand emails from eight thirty to ten, because 631 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 4: it's not going to happen. But you could be like, Okay, well, 632 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 4: because I left work at four o'clock, I need to 633 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 4: finish the agenda notes for meeting tomorrow, I need to 634 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 4: approve this project that somebody just sent me, and I 635 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 4: need to give a more thoughtful response. 636 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: You know, to that question of do we need to 637 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: hire another person? 638 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 4: You know, like those three things I'm going to do tonight, 639 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 4: and when I'm done with those, then I'm done right 640 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 4: and it doesn't keep stretching. 641 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: For you forever. 642 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 3: I think having this split shift be about accomplishing very 643 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 3: specific objectives makes it far less painful, because it's not like, oh, 644 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 3: I'm sitting down to work. It's I'm sitting down to 645 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 3: finish XYZ, specifically to make next week run a lot 646 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 3: more smoothly, or to finish what I couldn't do because 647 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 3: I went to the soccer tournament or whatever. 648 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 4: Well, and that thing about going to the soccer tournament, like, 649 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 4: I think that is key to think about it. 650 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: I mean, because one thing to think about. 651 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 4: For a lot of women who do wind up doing 652 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 4: things in their personal lives during traditional work hours, you 653 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 4: already don't have strict separation of life. If you are 654 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 4: willing to ever do things like take a kid to 655 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,719 Speaker 4: the doctor or go to a school event during the 656 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 4: work day, then it's just a trade off to work 657 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 4: at other points. And so if you have in your 658 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 4: mind that working in the evening or working on the 659 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 4: weekends is somehow tragic and like something has gone horribly wrong. 660 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 4: Then you can't also be like, oh yeah, and I 661 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 4: want to go to this program at my kid's school 662 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 4: and oh yeah, I'm going to take my kid to 663 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 4: the doctor at eight am and not be at work 664 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 4: till nine thirty or whatever. You can't have those beliefs together. 665 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 4: Like they just don't work unless you're willing to work 666 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 4: a lot. 667 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 3: Less, that's what they say, unless you're like truly part time, 668 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 3: and that's working if you're part time. 669 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 4: If you are not, you know, have the ambitions to 670 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 4: do whatever, they're like, okay, fine, yeah, I mean, then. 671 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: You're just working less. 672 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 4: But you should understand that that's what you're doing, is 673 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 4: you're setting yourself up to have fewer work hours than 674 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 4: you might if you didn't hold yourself to it. And 675 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 4: I don't believe that it is tragic to work at 676 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 4: nights or on weekends, and certainly not that it's like 677 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 4: you don't want your kids to see work, Like I 678 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 4: think we live in a world where a lot of kids, 679 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 4: you know, it's just it's not a terrible thing for 680 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,479 Speaker 4: kids to know that mothers work too, and that they 681 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 4: might sometimes want to put in some extra hours because 682 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 4: there's a big project that they're really hoping to get done, 683 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 4: or that they were excited about or something like that. 684 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 4: I think that, you know, we can get a little 685 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 4: bit too worried about that. And I guess it just 686 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 4: comes straight down to that thing that a lot of 687 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 4: people are very, very uncomfortable with mothers working. Even very 688 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 4: progressive people, even very you know, feel like enlightened on 689 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 4: everything else, they are still incredibly uncomfortable with that. And 690 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 4: so they're like, well, I don't want my kids to 691 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 4: see that I have to do this at night or 692 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 4: I you know, oh, the weekends are sacred, those are 693 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 4: family time. It's like, but again, you brought your kids 694 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 4: to the dentist at nine o'clock on Tuesday. 695 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: How can weekends be sacred. 696 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 4: If you're doing that and yet want to, you know, 697 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 4: continue in this job that does require a certain number 698 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 4: of hours. So anyway, that's just me, my little soapbox here. 699 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: I will get off of it now. 700 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 3: No, I support that soap I support that soap box. 701 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 3: We should not be held to a different standard, and 702 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 3: if we love our jobs and want to do more 703 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 3: of them, then we should be allowed to do that. 704 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: Obviously. 705 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, No, which is why I took the you know, 706 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 4: the writing retreat. I mean, even you know, who knows 707 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 4: what will ever come of that. But I do write 708 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 4: for a living, and so writing books is part of that. 709 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 4: And you know, if somebody else in a job that 710 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 4: required occasionally to travel and do a big conference somewhere, 711 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 4: you know, that's sort of my equivalent. 712 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: And it was important to me to do. And I 713 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: think it was fine that my family could see me 714 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: do that. 715 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 4: All right, So I think that's what we have to 716 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 4: say on that. But let's go to the question for 717 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 4: this week. So a listener writes, and when did you 718 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 4: start swim. 719 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: Lessons with your kids? 720 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 4: I feel like swim lessons for my three to four 721 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 4: year old was kind of a waste of money. I 722 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 4: assume this person was doing like group lessons and know 723 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 4: the YMCI kind of type thing. She says, do you 724 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 4: recommend private lessons? So, Sarah, what do you say? 725 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 3: I've never felt like any swim lesson was a waste 726 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 3: of money, because either they're just getting more comfortable with 727 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 3: the water or they're actually learning. In Florida, a lot 728 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 3: of kids learn pretty early, and we had at least 729 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 3: one out of three kids swimming by four like could 730 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 3: swim across the pool, although with the same exposure, not 731 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 3: all of my kids were doing that. So there's going 732 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 3: to be some differences based on the kid. We've done 733 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 3: both group and private. Some kids have learned a ton 734 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 3: mostly in the group and only needed a little bit 735 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 3: of help with the private at the end. Other kids 736 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 3: have been way slower, and I've put more energy into 737 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 3: the private. My personal philosophy is if you are not 738 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 3: swimming by like close to five, you should doing private lessons. 739 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 3: And I have found the private lessons that are many 740 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 3: days of the week versus just a weekly exposure to 741 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 3: be more effective because there's just something about that continuity. 742 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 3: So there's a lot of teachers, actually, there's a lot 743 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 3: of teachers who make it their side hustles during the 744 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 3: summer to be swim teachers. We've hired a couple of 745 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 3: them that way, and then they'll they'll just do like 746 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 3: a week of boot camp and they'll come to your 747 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 3: community pool or you go to them and your kid 748 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 3: practices day after day for a week, so they really 749 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 3: get that muscle memory and kind of get rid of 750 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:29,800 Speaker 3: any fear. 751 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I mean I would say so one of 752 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 4: the things about even like the group classes for three 753 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 4: to four year olds is they're trying to teach them 754 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,879 Speaker 4: some basic water safety, like here's how you climb out 755 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 4: of the pool, which regardless of whether your kid is 756 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 4: going to be a champion, you know, breaststroker, like if 757 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 4: you have a pool, if your neighbors have a pool, 758 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 4: if there's a pool, your child might conceivably wander past. 759 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 4: That is just a basic safety issue that you need 760 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 4: to teach them along like with don't touch matches, like 761 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 4: you know everything else that you know, wear your seat belt. 762 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,439 Speaker 4: Having some basic water safety is really important. So I think, 763 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 4: you know, even if they weren't like learning to swim, 764 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 4: if they have a concept like stay away from the 765 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 4: pool without an adult and if you get in, this 766 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 4: is how you get out, Like that's how That's something 767 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 4: that they need to learn pretty young. Yeah, we'd done 768 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 4: group lessons starting at like two and a half, you know, 769 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 4: the parent and child, you know, getting comfortable in the water, 770 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 4: and then they transitioned to doing it without the parent 771 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 4: when they're about three and a half or so at 772 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 4: our local why and then yeah, we've we've done private lessons. 773 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 4: If a kid gets to about five and really isn't 774 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 4: quite there. With some pretty hilarious swim teachers over the years. 775 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: I have to say Quid a mix of people. 776 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,280 Speaker 4: Who do it, and Alex had some really like gruff 777 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 4: military guy who came to give him lessons. It was 778 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 4: quite the battle to watch the two of them. I 779 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 4: got to say, you know, my kid's a stubborn little kid. 780 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 4: This was a stubborn guy, and two of them really 781 00:35:58,480 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 4: had it out. 782 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 3: And he can swim. 783 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: Now, well he could swim. Yeah, he could swim, so 784 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: it worked. We're still working on the stroke things. 785 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 4: I mean, Michael would like him to do swim team, 786 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 4: and I think swim team would be really awesome for him, 787 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 4: but I'm not sure he's gonna agree to do it, 788 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 4: in which case then we got to find something else, 789 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 4: like Ninja team or climbing team or I don't know, but. 790 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 3: I think zero out of three kids take me up 791 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 3: on my suggestion to try swim team. 792 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 4: So yeah, OK, energy, it's like burns a ton of energy, 793 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 4: which has many upsides for certain personalities of children. 794 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so love of the week Mine is related chlorine. 795 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: So this is. 796 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 4: If you have a backyard pool, you wind up with 797 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 4: a you know, like a minor in chemistry by the 798 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 4: time you're done with this of figuring out like how 799 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 4: the chlorine like precipitates out and all the you know, 800 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 4: the pH levels of your pool and such. But it 801 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 4: really is amazing stuff that you know, you between changing 802 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 4: all the chemistry of the pool. We had this episode 803 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,240 Speaker 4: that when we were away for a week and something 804 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 4: happened without it being properly tended, it turned into a pond, 805 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,919 Speaker 4: Like it literally turned into a pond in one week, 806 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 4: and like, okay, that's a problem. 807 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: Nobody wants to swim in this pond. 808 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 4: And then you know, with the right balancing of the 809 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 4: chemistry and enough chlorine and such, it was a beautiful 810 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 4: bluepool again. So it really, it really is magical. 811 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 1: Love it. 812 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 3: I will share my two favorite sources for kids swimwear, 813 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 3: which are lands end kids, super affordable, really cute options. 814 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 3: And then if you're wanting to splurge, I have to 815 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 3: say the Bowden swim stuff last like forever, Like we're 816 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,240 Speaker 3: having stuff that was worn by multiple seasons of Annabelle 817 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 3: and now go through Genevieve and it still like looks 818 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 3: really good. So those are my two faves. 819 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 4: That's really cool. If you can get that. I mean, 820 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 4: especially with girls swimsuits that are all stretchy, because the 821 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 4: stretch is like what goes first on swimsuits. We've had 822 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 4: a little better luck with boys just because it's the 823 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 4: canvassy type material and it's only the waistband, and so 824 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 4: if you keep the waistband going, then you can wear 825 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 4: it from boy to boy. 826 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 3: But girls you have to have one boy, so I 827 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 3: have well we basically I just have to. 828 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 1: Throw it out. I can't even really donate them. 829 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,760 Speaker 4: They're not, you know, worth, I don't think anyone want 830 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 4: to wear I'm so yeah, no good to keep in mind, 831 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 4: I might start start shopping there for this. 832 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 1: All right, Well, this has been best of both worlds. 833 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 4: We've been talking about how to create a feeling of 834 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 4: done at the end of the workday, or how to 835 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 4: decide that you don't really need to be done, and 836 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 4: you know, you could just decide to be actually done 837 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 4: with your work even if you're not psychologically done with 838 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,879 Speaker 4: your work, and take it on again the next day. 839 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 4: We will be back next week with more on making 840 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:36,800 Speaker 4: work and life fit together. 841 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the 842 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 3: shoebox dot com. Or at the Underscore shoe Box on 843 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 3: Instagram and you can. 844 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 5: Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has 845 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 5: been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us 846 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 5: next time for more on making work and life work together. 847 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 3: W