1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and don't go to 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:09,319 Speaker 1: stuff I've never told you production of I Heart Radio. 3 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: All right, and you have a question for you. Okay, 4 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: are you ready? I think so. As a kid, did 5 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: you play any kind of dress up or pretend? Oh? Yes, yes, 6 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: oh yes. I One of my mom's favorite stories to 7 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: tell people is that when I was four, I made 8 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: an office and I would go to work. I had 9 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: like a little briefcase that I made and like these 10 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: little sheets I would fill out and I would be, 11 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 1: like my dad would come home from work, and I'd 12 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: be like, good day, and like continue about my business. Um, 13 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: and I would kind of dress up for that, and 14 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: then I did do. I went through the period where 15 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: I was pretty young and I was like wearing way 16 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: too much makeup and like dresses and if anything I 17 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: could find from my grandmother my aunts that I thought 18 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: it looked cool from a different era. I was really 19 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: into that. But yes, also, me and my best friend 20 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: did a lot of Star Wars dress up where we 21 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: would get in our robes and we had our lightsabers 22 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: and return on Strobe light yeah, and play Duel of 23 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: the Fates and have a lightsaber battle. I love it. Well. Yeah, 24 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 1: and that goes to the second part. Do you feel 25 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:31,119 Speaker 1: like when you look back at some of the things 26 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: that you would do or some of the things that 27 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: you pretended or dress up as kind of reflect on 28 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: who you are or who you wanted to be today 29 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: or what you ended up being today. Yeah, definitely. Obviously 30 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: Star Wars love. I would say I am a pretty 31 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: hard worker. Um and I love I love dressing up 32 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: and imagining. I still that's still one of my very 33 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: favorite things is to cosplay, but also just like imagine 34 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: things and me and my friend, aforementioned Jedi friend would 35 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: we would go in the woods and we would um 36 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: like come up with these really elaborate stories and scenarios. 37 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: And that's something I still love doing, is writing or 38 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: telling stories in whatever way I can. So yeah, I 39 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: think so, I think so yeah. I don't have that 40 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: many stories. I honestly, I don't know. My childhood was 41 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: really weird, trying to just adjust to a new country, 42 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: So I don't have those types of stories, but I 43 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: think a lot of people do. And I was thinking 44 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: about this Today's We're actually gonna be talking about activists 45 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 1: and icon Beverly Pallesa Ditzi, who is a South African 46 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: queer activist, a filmmaker and just an amazing artist in general. 47 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: And we're gonna talk a little more about how growing 48 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: up she realized, Oh, I now make sense of what 49 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: I was doing or dressing up like as a kid 50 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: to who I am today. It's like, oh yeah, and 51 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: it made me think of that. But Ditzi, who we're 52 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: talking about, was born in Sagunto, South Africa in nineteen 53 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,119 Speaker 1: seventy one and was raised doing the hardships of apartheid 54 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: and racial oppression, and added that her struggles as being 55 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: a lesbian in you know, a very unwelcoming time like 56 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: that was not a thing to be accepted, and it's 57 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: still controversial to be a part of the LGBTQ plus 58 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: community in general. But she was no stranger in just 59 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: daring to be herself. Yeah. She related a story of 60 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: learning what gay meant after hearing the term over the 61 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: speculation of musician Boy George, and after learning what it meant, 62 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: Um was elated to be able to identify a part 63 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: of herself. She said in an article, I remember this 64 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: confusion that I'd always had. I'd been trying to work 65 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: out how I'd get over this thing. I always thought 66 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: I was the only one. I thought, I'm just gay. 67 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm just gay. Everything is okay. I'm 68 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: just gay. She stated. Her and her friends but often 69 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: dressed like the eighties group Culture Club, mimicking the styles 70 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: of Ward George, living in the freedom they created for themselves, 71 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: going past gender norms and dressing as they wanted and 72 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: as way to represent themselves a bit more. Though freedom 73 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: wasn't easily accessible living under the termoil of the country 74 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: during the apartheid right, so did see. However, never stopped 75 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: pushing and fighting. She talks about being a rebel very young, 76 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: and she also talks about having good support from our family, 77 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: even though they were worried and even though they had 78 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,119 Speaker 1: been attacked and threatened through her activism. But she continued 79 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: to live and grow up in South Africa, and she 80 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: joined clubs and organizations for activism and advocacy, and soon 81 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: she met Simon ingle I. She stated, quote, my activism 82 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: was born out of frustration. I was very lucky that 83 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: I was also spending a lot of time with a 84 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: group of beautiful queer boys, and together we attended the 85 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: first meeting of Glow the gay and Lesbian Organization of 86 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: the waters Rand, and as she was part of this organization, 87 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: she had also met up with Simon ingle I. They 88 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: together formed this group UM and it was through this 89 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: group she would push for intersectionality and advocacy and ally ship. 90 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: When she spoke of the group's work, including ingle I, 91 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,239 Speaker 1: she stated, Simon said, I am black, I am queer, 92 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: and I cannot separate these into primary and secondary struggles. 93 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 1: What is this if it's intersectionality ad women at poor 94 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: and I found myself in those wards and then when 95 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 1: I found that everything I did from then on was 96 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: based on that, that was my spring board in goal. 97 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: I had faced the death penalty with several others for treason, 98 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,679 Speaker 1: but was acquitted and released did C he was able 99 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: to attend a meeting where he spoke of the rights 100 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: for the gay community. She said, that's something I've never 101 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: heard before, and coming from someone who was also a 102 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: legitimate Antipartheide activists, it legitimized all my struggles and feelings, 103 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: and continued saying, for the first time he included my 104 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: queerness in the equation. So freedom was not just going 105 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: to mean freedom for me as a black person, it 106 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: would also be freedom for me as a woman, as 107 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: a gay woman. Kali soon became her mentor and they, 108 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: with several others started Glue and it was through this 109 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: organization they put together the first Pride in their community. 110 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: In Though there was some worry as to the turnout 111 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: for the event, there were at least eight hundred protesters present. 112 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: The event. Organizers even had paper bags ready for those 113 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: who wanted to participate but not be identified, but no 114 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: one wanted one and they were ready to protest proudly. 115 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: Her activism continued as she became the first openly queer 116 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 1: woman to speak at the fourth Annual UN Conference on 117 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: Women in Beijing in nine She spoke about the importance 118 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: of lesbian rights specific to empowering and uplifting women, and 119 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: this was the first time for anyone to address to 120 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 1: the UN the overall needs for including queer women in 121 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: the protections of human rights. She stated in her address, 122 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: if the World Conference on Women is to address the 123 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: concerns of all women, it must similarly recognize that discrimination 124 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: based on sexual orientation is a violation of basic human rights. 125 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: And though she learned so much from the organization of GLOW, 126 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: she eventually laughed when she felt that the organization refused 127 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: to see and address the needs of queer women and 128 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: those the disappointment for her to see that the needs 129 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: of women were being ignored. She kept pushing, including speaking 130 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 1: at the un which she stated was the last straw 131 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: and why she left Glow because they were so unsupportive 132 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: and not wanting her to do this. She even went 133 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: on reality TV to bring attention and humanness for the 134 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: gay community. And by the way, she is no stranger 135 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: to television acting or any of that. Apparently, she was 136 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: a child's actor and one of was one of the 137 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: first child actors, and she often portrayed young boys, she said, 138 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: so that was an interesting thing. Her mother was also famous, 139 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: I believe, a musician, so she she knows a little 140 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: thing about entertainment. But she did go on to this 141 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: reality show and she stayed she wanted to be a 142 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: part of the show to put a face and humanity 143 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: behind what it is they don't know and be there 144 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: to answer their questions. And she actually spoke of a 145 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: specific person who was a part of the show with 146 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: her who talked about how he used to beat up 147 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: gay people because they didn't deserve to be in existence 148 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: and she was able to change his mind and was 149 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: able to become friends with him. Did she was invited 150 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: to the tenth Glow Anniversary party where she was able 151 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: to reconcile with longtime friend Golie. After Kali's death died 152 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: of AIDS in she created a documentary titled Simon and I, 153 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: which follows the life of Simon Incola I and Ditzy 154 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: and their activism and also how the AIDS ofpidemic and 155 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: Africa impacted them. And the documentary also talked of how 156 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: their movement helped South Africa become the only country to 157 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: include sexual orientation and its constitutional Bill of Rights. The 158 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: film won several awards including International Documentary Film Festival Amsterdam, 159 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: Real Affirmation Film Festival, San Francisco Gay and Lesbian Film Festival, 160 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: and A bunch More in dis herself has won several 161 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: awards and accolies, including the Safe Space Community Icon Award 162 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: in twenty the Feathers Award, and she also received an 163 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: honorary doctorate from Claremont Graduate University in California, and then 164 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: when she was presented with the doctorate, in the presentation, 165 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: they stated as the first person ever to address gay 166 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: and lesbian rights before the United Assembly, you call for 167 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: the recognition of discrimination based on sexual orientation as a 168 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 1: violation of human rights. As an advocate and key founder 169 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: of the Gay and Lesbian Organization of the wit Waters 170 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: and in South Africa's first Pride March, you have reminded 171 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: us all that freedom of self expression and identity belongs 172 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: to everyone. As a director and documentary filmmaker, you have 173 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: used television and film to entertain and open minds, to 174 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: educate and build bridges of understanding that are vital to 175 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: our future. She talked about how this was just like 176 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: brought tears our eyes and she was like, wow, I've 177 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: never really thought of this. I am an icon and 178 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: she absolutely is, and she's still doing some really huge 179 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: things including uh working and as director for several different films. 180 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: Her current release, I belief, was Lesbians Free Everyone the 181 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: Beijing Retrospective, which I believe is out. She has been 182 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: a part of the Project Runway of South Africa, so 183 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: she's been really huge and she talks about how she 184 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: loves participating and things like this to show a positive 185 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: outlook on what the gay community, the QUICK community is 186 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: and who they are and how they should be celebrated 187 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: and and and again just being human in general and 188 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: being acknowledged in their identity and how wonderful and how 189 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: beautiful that can be. Yeah, absolutely very excited to check 190 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: out her work. And also I was in South Africa 191 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago for a conference and I 192 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: went to a session on the queer community. And also 193 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: it was just interesting because they were talking about the 194 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: how in certain languages and dialects there aren't words for 195 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: things like transgender, and how how do we address that 196 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: and pushing it that way. And you know, we've also 197 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 1: had the conversation of how sometimes the labels can be damaging, 198 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: are not completely accurate, and so we're always like coming 199 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: up with new new words or new ways to identify. 200 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: But at the same time, if there isn't a word 201 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: to describe your experience, that's also problematic and difficult. So yeah, 202 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: very interested to see how that that conversation keeps going 203 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: right And in the meantime, listeners, if you would like 204 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: to contact us, if you have any suggestions of women 205 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: we should highlight, please send them our away. Our email 206 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: is the Stuff Media Mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. 207 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter, at mom Stuff podcast 208 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: or on Instagram. And Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks 209 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: as always your super producer Christina, thank you, and thanks 210 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told You is 211 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: the protection of iHeart Radio. For more podcast on my 212 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app. Apple Podcast already 213 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.