1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: Today on Crime Stories. We had to Goodfield, Illinois. Around 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: the corner of the house. It's pretty much totally indolfed. 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: Joining Nancy Grace, New York criminal defense attorney Jason Oceans, 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: John Cardilla, formerly of the MYPD, doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupree, medical examiner and author of Homicide Investigation 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: Field Guide, and Dave Mack Crime Online investigative report Crime 7 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Around the corner of the house, 8 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: it's pretty much totally indolfed. I did run down by 9 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: the windows to see if I can see anything, but 10 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: once I got down there, it was just the heat 11 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: was overwhelming and I just backed up. There's nothing you 12 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: can do at that point because the fire department showed 13 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: up second time after I got here, and our fire 14 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: department here is you know, if these guys are awesome 15 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: about their response time for a volunteer department, they're on 16 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: the spot within six minutes. This has never happened. With 17 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: fifteen years I've been out here and something like this, 18 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: you know, in the community to sip here. If there 19 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: would have been something they could do to help, they 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: would have been helping. I think That's the biggest thing 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: is you know, a lot of people that was here 22 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: felt helpless, that no one what was going on, and 23 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: that they couldn't do anything. Incredible fire claims the home. 24 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: A fire claims not only a home, but lives. Three toddlers, 25 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: two adults, all dead in a fire the home near Peoria, Illinois, 26 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: consumed with flames, killing Aerial wall Age one, Damon Wall 27 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: and Rose Allwood. To Jason Wall thirty four and Catherine Murray, 28 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: sixty nine, what happened? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. 29 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. Straight out to Dave 30 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: Matt Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Dave. A fire 31 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: this severe, totally destroying the home and claiming so many lives. 32 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: What happened, Nancy? They were all asleep. It was just 33 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: after eleven o'clock and you've got a family with several 34 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: young children. The manager of this neighborhood, Sean Johnson, actually 35 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 1: said that as he rounded the corner, it was already 36 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: fully engulfed. Flames were coming out from the middle of 37 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: the home as well as both ends. It was completely 38 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: on fire within a matter of minutes. Firefighters arrived six 39 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: minutes from the time they got the call and it 40 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: was already over. I'm just trying to imagine the home 41 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: going up in flames in the middle of the night 42 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: and know to doctor Bethany Marshall joining us, a psychoanalyst 43 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: in Beverly Hills, Doctor Bethany, there's something so terrible flying 44 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: about fire. If you ask people that will be one 45 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: of their main fears is fire. I think, yes, fire 46 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,839 Speaker 1: is such a frightening idea for most people because it's 47 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: an idea of a very painful, slow death. And that's 48 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: why fire is such an evocative term in our modern 49 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: day lexicon. And not only fire, but fire in a 50 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: home in the middle of the night when people are sleeping. 51 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: I think what most people don't realize though, is that 52 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: in a fire, you generally fire die of smoke inhalation, 53 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: not being burned alive, but yes, burned alive at the stake, 54 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: burning up with anger. Our world's on fire. I mean, 55 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: the idea of fire is definitely a scary concept. This 56 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: blazing inferno near the small village of Goodfield kills one 57 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: year old Aerial Wall, her brother Damien Wall, cousin Rose Allwood, 58 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: both aged two. Ariel and Damon's dad, thirty four year 59 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: old Jason Wall, and their great grandma Katherine Murray, also 60 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: in the home. I'm looking at it and it looks 61 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 1: like it has eaten up the entire home. Now, oh, 62 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: this is this hurts. I'm looking at the photos of 63 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: the children. I'm looking at little Damien and his one 64 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: year old sister Ariel, just a beautiful The dad an 65 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 1: Army vet us Army Vet. Jason Wall, just thirty four, 66 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: who died of smoke inhalation. Then there's the niece, Rose Allwood, 67 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: aged two. Here she is with a little princess hat on. 68 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: She was just staying with the family that night. She 69 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: also died. Then the great grandma, Katherine Murray also died, 70 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: all five dying of smoke inhalation inside the family home 71 00:04:54,440 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: at the Timberline community. You have Jason Wall's fiance, say 72 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: Katrina Wall, and her son Kyle Allwood, who managed to 73 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: escape the fire. Everyone else perishes. John Cardillo with a 74 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: former NYPD. When you have a fire like this, you 75 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: can burn to death or you can die smoke inhalation. 76 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: Explain how these people died a smoke inhalation, but they 77 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: their bodies were not actually burned. Oh, that's actually the 78 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: most common cause, Nancy. You know, we would respond alongside 79 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: the fire department, and it would shock people if they 80 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: never responded to one of these scenes, just how quickly 81 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: a premise, a home, of building, an office could be 82 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: engulfed in flames, especially if it was an older structure 83 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: that wasn't up to the current fire codes. Often they 84 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: don't make you retroactively upgrade. And this fire department exceptional 85 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:58,119 Speaker 1: responds time right six minutes from the call the alarm 86 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 1: going out to them responding and turning those hoses on. 87 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: But that's all you really need there. Maybe, you know, 88 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 1: the fire investigators will go out there and survey the property. 89 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: But it certainly could have been maybe they were cooking 90 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: with propane, there was a propane tank attached to the 91 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: house that would lend to it that would cause a 92 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: secondary explosion. There could have been older gas lines with 93 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: natural gas coming in. One of those could have split 94 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: from the heat. Now you've essentially got a flamethrower adding 95 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: to the chaos. So these fires, now that smoke is 96 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: going to bilow up and it's going to bilow into 97 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: these rooms away from the point of fire, very very quickly. 98 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: This is a thick, black, acrid smoke that's going to 99 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: overcome you in seconds, in seconds, especially if you're sleeping. 100 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: If you're awake, remember we were taught in school as kids, 101 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: stop drop and roll, get a wet cloth on your face. 102 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: But if you're asleep, this smoke is going to overcome 103 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: you more often than not before you can react. They 104 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: number one cause of death related to fire is smoke inhalation. 105 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: That occurs when you breathe in the products of combustion 106 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: during a fire, the rapid breakdown of substances like wood, metal, 107 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: everything used to build a home. It smokes a mixture 108 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: of those heated particles and gas gas think of carbon monoxide. 109 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: Smoke inhalation is simply asphyxiation. You die from lack of oxygen. 110 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: You also have a chemical irritation when you breathe. All 111 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: that in long story short, by simply breathing, you die. 112 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, it takes less than three 113 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: minutes to die of smoke inhalation, and it's basically asphyxiation 114 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: because your body's starved of oxygen. Dave Mack was the 115 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: entire home destroyed where the body's intact, What do you 116 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: know yes, ma'am. The entire home was destroyed, and you 117 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: could see from the pictures that the main focus of 118 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: this well, from the pictures, it looked like the very 119 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: center of this home, the living room area, was totally obliterated. 120 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: On both ends of the home. You could see that 121 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: there had been fire coming out of both ends. And 122 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: we do know that each one of the victims here 123 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: died from smoke in elation, and the family had been 124 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: so excited to move into this new community. Listen to 125 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: WMBD reporter Rosario Dominguez. I was at the scene this 126 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: morning and talked to neighbors who witnessed the fire, and unfortunately, 127 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 1: two adults and three children lost their lives and only 128 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: two were able to escape. Sunday, This is the aftermath 129 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: after a deadly fire at the Timberline trailer Park in Goodfield. 130 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: Katrina Allwood and Jason Wall lived there with their three kids, Damien, 131 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: Ariel and Kyle, ages two, one, and eight. Their niece 132 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: Rose Allwood and Grandma Katherine Murray were also in the 133 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: home at the time of the blaze, but only Katrina 134 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: and her son Kyle were able to get out. It 135 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: was real, it was just a fireball when we got 136 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: over here in flames were shooting out from the center 137 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: of the home and from this end, I've been hearing 138 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: it over in my head all night long, just children 139 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: crying and mom's crying for their babies, and it's it's horrible. 140 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: Katrina and Jason had moved to the community to be 141 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 1: near her sister and parents about a year and a 142 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: half ago. According to neighbors, they were pretty pretty pretty 143 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: happy about moving in here, pretty excited. They liked it. 144 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: They moved from Eastboordy here that the sceneries a lot different. Quiet. 145 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: I've lived out in this community for a little around 146 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: fifteen years something like that and never had any anything 147 00:09:39,320 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 1: like this crime stories with Nancy Grace. The community is 148 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: already looking for ways to be there for Katrina and 149 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: her son. Quite a few people talking about trying to 150 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: find out what the clothes size for the boy in 151 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: Katrina is. They're already talking about getting a collection of clothes. 152 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: This fire also got those around talking about ways to 153 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: prevent this from happening again. We're going to make sure 154 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 1: there's working smoke alarms in every home. We're going to 155 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: make sure that lays have an escape plan, and I 156 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: also talked to though you got Goodfield fire chief, and 157 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: he says that twenty three firefighters from four different departments 158 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: were at the scene last night. They were able to 159 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: get the fire under control in fifteen minutes and cleared 160 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: the scene approximately at five am. For county authorities say 161 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: the cost of the fire is still under investigation. You 162 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: were hearing our friend at WMBD, reporter Risorio Dominguez, as 163 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: the neighbors joined together and try to help the two survivors, 164 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: the fiancee and her little boy, but still the cause 165 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: of the fire had not been determined. To Jason Oceans, 166 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: joining me, veteran criminal defense attorney out of New York 167 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 1: in the Tri State area. Jason Oceans, the thing about 168 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: a fire, Um, it's a tricky case to prove an 169 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: arson because, first of all, unlike with a bank robbery 170 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: or shooting or murder, you know a crime has happened. 171 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: With an arson, you first have to prove there was 172 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: a crime. Then you have to figure out who did it, 173 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: which is very difficult to do because all the evidence 174 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 1: has been burned. You're correct, Nancy. I mean fire investigators 175 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: are you know, very focused in their craft and their specialists. Uh, 176 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: you know was there an accelerant involved, you know, source 177 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:45,839 Speaker 1: of fire and as our NYPD detective indicated, the h 178 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: you know an accelerant, you know, a secondary source and 179 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: ruling that out and you know, it's it's painstaking, and 180 00:11:54,720 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: h it's it's it's certainly, as you stated, very difficult 181 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: in an arson case, first proving how and whether it 182 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: was and then finding out who've done it. An arson 183 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: investigation is painstaking. I've been through many of them and 184 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: prosecuted arson's. In fact, toward the end of prosecuting in 185 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: Inner City Atlanta, that had become a real niche that 186 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: I worked on because arson cases can be very, very 187 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 1: hard to prove. But after investigation, this is what happened. 188 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: This very spot that I'm standing in used to be 189 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,199 Speaker 1: home to a five person family, but during one night 190 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: in early April, a spark changed everything. It wasn't long 191 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: before the authorities determined that this fire was set intentionally, 192 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: ruling this case as a homicide investigation. One year old Aeriel, 193 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: two year old Damien, and two year old Rows killed 194 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: when this mobile home caught fire. Also lost in the 195 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 1: blaze thirty four year old Jason Wall and sixty nine 196 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: year old Catherine Murray. Now a young child faces charges. 197 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: He's only nine years old, and I'm pretty sure a 198 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: child would not set out to intentionally harm someone. The 199 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: Woodford County States Attorney says the child faces five counts 200 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: of murder, two counts of arson, and one count of 201 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,479 Speaker 1: aggravated arson. But some say the charges are a bit harsh. 202 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: I think he was just playing. He didn't realize the 203 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: implications or the consequences, and a bad tragedy came out 204 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: of it. That was our friend at WMBD. That was 205 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: Minosha mccargi. A nine year old little boy charged in 206 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 1: a fire that kills three tots and two adults. To 207 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: determine the cause of the blaze will go a long 208 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: way to determine the mindset of this little boy, if 209 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: in fact he did it. But it's staggering to me, 210 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall, that a nine year old is charged 211 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: with five homicides. Well, I cannot speak to the charges, 212 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: but I can speak to the psychology of a child 213 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: who would set a fire. You know, there are very 214 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 1: careful specific delineations in my field in terms of child fireplays, 215 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: what we call it, and why a child might set 216 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: a fire, and the most mild would just be that 217 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: they're curious, it's accidental, they're playing in their bedroom, sometimes 218 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: as a cry for help. It could be more further 219 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: along the spectrum that they're delinquents, but usually if it's 220 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: a juvenile delinquent, it's between the ages of eleven and fifteen. 221 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: If you go up the scale, you can have psychotic, paranoid, 222 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: schizophrenic children who are severely disturbed, or you can have 223 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: children who are what we call cognitively impaired. And what 224 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: that means is that they do not understand the consequences 225 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: of fire starting. Maybe maybe they have intellectual disabilities or 226 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: they do not have cause and effect thinking. But I 227 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: think instead of just rushing the judgment and charging the child, 228 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: I'm hoping that they have a psycholog just they're evaluating 229 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: this child to try to delineate what the motivation was. 230 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: There's a famous case in my field where a four 231 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: year old sets a fire in his bedroom, closes the door, 232 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: goes out, sits down at the dinner table to eat 233 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: with the family, and all of a sudden, the bedroom 234 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: goes up in smoke. Fortunately, the fire department comes in time. 235 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: The blazes, you know, snuffed out one hundred thousand dollars 236 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: worth of damages, and when questioned about why why he 237 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: set the fire, he said, well, I thought if I 238 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: closed the door, it would go away. Now that's a 239 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: four year old, but that's an example of the importance 240 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: of evaluating why the child set the fire. You know, 241 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: a lot is going to depend on how the fire 242 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: was started. I'm going to make a confession since I 243 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: know the Statute of Limitations has long been passed. Before 244 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: I was three, I was at my grandmother Mama that 245 00:15:55,960 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: Lucy's named after, and my grandfather Avid's home, and my 246 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: granddad had come home for lunch. He drove a school 247 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: bus and my grandmother was getting lunch together and I 248 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: was playing in the den and I found matches and 249 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: I just wanted to see if I could strike a 250 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: match and I did, and of course it fell on 251 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: the sofa and it burned a marked in the fabric. 252 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: Long story short, my grandmother ran in. I don't really 253 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: remember exactly what happened, but I didn't even get any trouble. 254 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: I don't think I even got fussed at or spain. 255 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: I think they just took matches away and told me 256 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: to leave. Them alone. But I certainly was intended to 257 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: burn the house down or burn anything down. I was 258 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: just trying to strike a match. My point is, in 259 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: this case, John Cardillo, former NYPD, it'll be a very 260 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: different scenario if he was just trying to light a match. 261 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: Or did he pour gasoline in the bed room of 262 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: the victims and then let it put a match to it. 263 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it depends on whether it's obvious this nine 264 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: year old little boy actually try to start a fire. Well, 265 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: that's that's the crux of the case, right there. Was 266 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: it a kid actending playing with matches? Look, I did 267 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 1: it as a kid. I probably use twelve years old 268 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: and I we had some fireworks in a box in 269 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: the garage, and I was messing around with a blowtorch, 270 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: trying to fuse two pieces of metal. Okay, wait wait 271 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: wait wait wait wait, stop stop messing around with a blowtorlet. 272 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 1: It was a lot less nefarious than it sounds. I 273 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: had like two pieces of it. It sounds really bad, John, Well, blowtorch, 274 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: what was it blowtorch doing your garage? I was trying 275 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: to put two pieces of metal together. We were trying 276 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: to make a ramp to jump our bicycles. Wait, and 277 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: how old were you? I was probably like twelve, right, 278 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: I mean? And we all survived back then acting this way, 279 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: didn't we? Blowtorch plus fireworks plus garage equals send me 280 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: good build up all the sparks right hit the fireworks. 281 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: They were in a cardboard box, and it was, you know, 282 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: a few weeks after the Fourth of July or before. 283 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: And but let me tell you that, hold on, I'm 284 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: trying to write this damn as fast as I can 285 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: from my next book it's called Cardillo did exactly well anyway, 286 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: But they caught up. You know, those fireworks caught pretty quickly, 287 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: and my friends and I were able to kind of 288 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: kick the box outside. I guess, so get it fire right. 289 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: Luckily we were able to kick the box outside and 290 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: they sort of went off harmlessly. But you know what 291 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: I'm saying is that that's an accident. And with the 292 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: the arson investigation, investigation methods don't know when you pick 293 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: up a blowtorch and turn it on. I guess that's 294 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 1: up to the jury to decide. Okay, can I get 295 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: back to this case Cardillo? Yeah, this sound bite is 296 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: gonna follow me for the rest of my life. Nancy, 297 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: this is awesome. Yes it will, because I'm gonna play 298 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: it over and over. So well, here's what I'm saying. 299 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 1: Arson investigation methods are very sophisticated. In fact, I've got 300 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: a friend who an ARSON investigator in New Mexico who 301 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: uses a canine and that dog is one of the 302 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: few around the country that's trained to detect accelerant. So 303 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: with the technology they have available to them today, the 304 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: canine component that they can bring in, the investigators can 305 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 1: tell pretty quickly if an area of that structure was 306 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: saturated with some kind of accelerant. In this particular case, 307 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: they suspect gasolines. They're going to look at you know, 308 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: the burn marks are going to be darker and deeper, 309 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: There's going to be a scorched trail, things of that nature, 310 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: and so they'll be able to determine crime stories with 311 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Nine year old child is accused of causing 312 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: a mobile home fire, killing three children and two adults. 313 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: Fire happened in central Illinois back in April. Now, the 314 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: nine year old is facing five counts, a first a 315 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: green murder. A neighbor spoke with WIC. I have compassion 316 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: for him because in my own heart. I really can't 317 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: see that nine year old would intentionally but to harm somebody. 318 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: The Woodford County States Attorney to not give any more 319 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: details about the suspect, including possible relationship to the victims. 320 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: If convicted, the child could be placed on probation for 321 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: at least five years, but not beyond the age of 322 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: twenty one. Therapy and counseling would be likely. Oh my stars. 323 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: A family home is consumed with flames, then criminal charges 324 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: brought against a nine year old little boy now named 325 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: as Kyle. I'm looking at a photo of the It's 326 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: hard to say defendant in this case. Kyle Allwood is 327 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: just a nine year old little boy. A lot is 328 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: going to depend on how the fire was started. Was 329 00:20:55,640 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: it an accident or was it intentional? I'm Nancy Gray. 330 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: This a Crime Stories Welcome Back with Me. Jason Oshans, 331 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: John Cardillo, Dodger, Bethany Marshall, and Dave Matt Crime Online 332 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter Jason Oshans, what do you do 333 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: when you've got a nine year old little boy charged 334 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: with five counts of murder? I think that's uh, you know, 335 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: beyond the pale that Davy State's prosecutor would would bring 336 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: charges as an adult, you know, just historically Nancy, Illinois 337 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: was the first state to have a juvenile court over 338 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty years ago. It just doesn't make 339 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 1: sense to even if it was and there was an 340 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: accelerant involved it, it just doesn't make sense. The cognitive 341 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: ability of a nine year old to comprehend almost anything 342 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: in a sophisticated intensional men's rea act. It just shocks 343 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: me as a father, as an attorney, it makes no sense. 344 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: You may scare a lot of people throwing around Latin 345 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: terms like men raya, which means the intent to do 346 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 1: the act, the malice to do the act. But in 347 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: this case, for instance Jason Oshans, there are a lot 348 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: of legal theories to support a merger charge. For instance, 349 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: if I hold a gun up to your head and 350 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: pull the trigger and kill you and then a way 351 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: and then I say, oh, my stars, I just meant 352 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: to scare him. Well, the law presumes you intend the 353 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: natural consequence of your act. That's like me, as I 354 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: would tell juries, holding up a piece of fine china 355 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: and throwing it to a cement floor and going, oh 356 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: my stars, I did not mean to break that well, 357 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: why did you throw it to the floor, i e. 358 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: Why did you poor excelerant and then put a match 359 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: to it, So you don't have to say, oh, I 360 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: did not mean for them to die of smoke inhalation. 361 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: The point is, if you did the act, if you 362 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 1: threw down the plate, if you pull the trigger, if 363 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: you started the fire, the law presumes you intend the 364 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: natural consequence of your act, Jason, no doubt, Nancy. But 365 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: the applicability of the law was to and designed as adults, 366 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: and we dropped from just having an adult court, Illinois 367 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: being the first state for a juvenile court, and we 368 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: set up different standards, we set up at different time 369 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 1: periods of incarceration. It was completely and totally treated differently 370 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: because of the age right and so as as violence 371 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: has increased, the ability to have, you know, guns and 372 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: the accessibility not uncommon for you know, fourteen or a 373 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: fifteen year old to be charged with murder. The statistics 374 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: proved that out. This is a nine year old, a 375 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: nine year old. I don't know of any case where 376 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: there's been a murder charge as an adult for in 377 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: treating a nine year old as an adult. I mean, 378 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: I think about that a nine year old is an 379 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: adult in what way only if something bad or heinous happens, 380 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: even if there wasn't intent. A nine year old was angry, 381 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: played with matches to create a fire, but just consequence, 382 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: the understanding, the cognitive knowledge to understand the consequences. It's 383 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: like as as doctor Marshall said, it's like as a 384 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: four year old closing the door and thinking would go away, 385 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: or double the age of the four year old, and 386 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: we've got a nine year old, not an eighteen year old, 387 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: but a nine year old. I'm not defending the actions. 388 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: Clearly that the child might need help. It might be 389 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: determined that way based on you know, the examination, but 390 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: the charge as an adult, I'd never do it. I'm 391 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: trying to rustle with the fact that a nine year 392 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: old little boy has been charged with five counts of murder, 393 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: two counts of arson, one count up aggravated arson. Take 394 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at wm b D. I 395 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: believe he needs help and love. State's attorney Greg Minger 396 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 1: said if convicted, the boy could he placed on probation 397 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: for at least five years, adding incarceration is off the table. 398 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: He would have to go to therapy and counseling and 399 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: a psychological evaluation would be likely. Still, those that know 400 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: him feel he deserves a second chance. Some children, even 401 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: some adults today, had things happened when they were younger. 402 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: They grew out of it, somebody nurtured them and they 403 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: have a very prosperous, productive adulthood now. So I believe 404 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: they deserve a chance. And she went on to say, 405 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: though this was a tragic incident, it opened the community's 406 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: eye on the importance of guiding the young ones in 407 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 1: the neighborhood. This is the youngest child to be accused 408 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: in a mass killing since two thousand and six. According 409 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 1: to the state's attorney's office. If convicted, the child could 410 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: be put on probation for at least five years, but 411 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: not beyond the age of twenty one. Prison time is 412 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 1: not an option here, and neighbors in the area are 413 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: reacting to these latest charges. He's gonna need some way 414 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 1: to cope with that, you know why. I don't know 415 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: if he understands. Look, he's really done. He didn't realize 416 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: the implications are the consequences, and a bad tragedy came 417 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: out of it. I believe he needs help and love. 418 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: You are hearing neighbors reacting to the news that this 419 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: little boy is charged with five counselor murder, but apparently 420 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: there will be no prison time. What about this? To 421 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: Jason Ocean's criminal defense lawyer, I believe one of the 422 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: reasons that he is charged as an adult is so 423 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: he will be under state's supervision. He could be under 424 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: state's supervision for years and years and years on five 425 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: counts and murder one, and he needs to be He 426 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: doesn't need to go into a home situation with no 427 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: one watching over him and no supervisory authority making him 428 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,640 Speaker 1: go to counseling making sure that he is staying out 429 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: of trouble. I mean, hold on to Dave mac what 430 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: do we know about any previous instances with this child, Nancy? 431 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 1: What we know is that there have been investigations from 432 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: the Family services since almost his birth. Thirteen different times 433 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: Social Services has interviewed this family and been involved in 434 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: different things with this specific child thirteen times. Now are 435 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: you saying de facts or police d facts? Thirteen times 436 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: de facts has been called in relation to this child. 437 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: What does that mean to you, doctor Bethany Marshall, Well, 438 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: to me, it means that he needs a thorough psychological assessment. 439 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: Let me just say, Nancy, according to one study, child fireplay, 440 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: as we call it, causes two billion dollars in damages 441 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: every year, and half of all child fireplay happens in 442 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: the bedroom. Just so you're listeners who are parents would 443 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: know that that's the place you really want to supervise. 444 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: But I wouldn't want to know is his child? Does 445 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 1: he have early onset bipolar disorder, attention deficit with hyperactivity? 446 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: Is he psychotic? Like? Is there something psychiatrically all of 447 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: these aparent behaviors That would be the first thing I 448 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: would have says. Secondarily, what is going on in the home? 449 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: Is he adequately supervised? Is there any type of abuse? 450 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 1: Sexual abuse, physical abuse? Not that any reports of that 451 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 1: has come out, but is that what we call indogenius 452 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: something in the child or exogen as something going on 453 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: in the home. And then third, I agree with you, Nancy. 454 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: If this guy, if this little boy goes into a home, 455 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: what's going to happen. He's going to lose his tie 456 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: to his mother? And who does he need most in 457 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: the world. If he's struggling his mother, who's going to 458 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: have the greatest therapeutic influence on him, his mother before 459 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: we had fancy Schmancy therapists. We look to our mothers. 460 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: Our mothers are the ones who heal and cure us, 461 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: and he needs his mother most of all at this point, 462 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: not some criminal desk justice system crime stories with me. 463 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: It's grace. For the first time, we're hearing from the 464 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: family of a nine year old boy accused of arson 465 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: and charged just this week with five counts of first 466 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: degree murder. Investigators say he intentionally set fire to his 467 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: family home in Downstair Eureka last April, but his mother 468 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: says he's not the monster people think he is. People 469 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: make mistakes, and that's what this says. Yes, it was 470 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: a horrible tragedy, but it's still not something to throw 471 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: his life away over. Katie Allwood is talking about her 472 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: son Kyle. The fire killed Allwood's two other children, her grandmother, 473 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: her fiance, and her two year old niece Rose. They 474 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: were sleeping when the flames swept through. The swept through, 475 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: only all would escape. She forgives Kyle, but her sister, 476 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: Rose's mother says, no way. I think he should go 477 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: somewhere until he's legal aged to go to Jukie and 478 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: I think he should eat to prison because at the 479 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: end of the day, whether he meant to or not, 480 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: he knew what fire did. The family says Kyle had 481 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: shown an interest in lighters and fire before. The local 482 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: prosecutor is defending the decision to file murder charges, but 483 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: says the nine year old is likely the face only probation. 484 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: Authorities said previously they thought the fire was intentionally set. 485 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: It was no accident. When a fire burst out, consuming 486 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: the families home and killing five, the fire was set 487 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: intentionally and that makes the deaths homicide. There are also 488 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: reports that the nine year old boy, Tyle, was actually 489 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: eight eight years old when the incident occurred, now charged 490 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: with five counts of murder one We also know that 491 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: Kyle's mother set up a gofund Me page to save 492 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: her van, which is all she had left from the fire. 493 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: Murder charges against a child this young are extremely rare. 494 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: If you speak to any legal expert, you'll learn that 495 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: murder charges against a nine year old are uncommon because 496 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: we don't understand the ability to reason at that age. 497 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: But murder charges against this child happened, and it's happened 498 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: in the past. Many people believe the boy should be 499 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,959 Speaker 1: charged as an adult. What would be the benefit of that, 500 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: Jason Oceans no benefit, Nancy, there's no benefit whatsoever. What 501 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: about supervising him for years to come? He clearly needs it. 502 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: But before there's the rush to judgment to make an 503 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: eight year old an adult. That's the stop right there. 504 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: Think about that, an eight year old as an adult 505 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,479 Speaker 1: because a bad act occurred. Would it be different if 506 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: it was a girl versus a boy. I can't even 507 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: get into the secont I don't know. I don't know 508 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: the benefit. I think there's no benefit. I don't know. 509 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: You know who the prosecutor is playing too. But as 510 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: a as a prosecutor, I could never imagine doing that. 511 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: I carrying around a felon the rest of your life, 512 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: what a murder felony? You might as well just you know, 513 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: right off the life. You know, there's got to be 514 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: more a sense of rehabilitation, and sure supervision would be appropriate. 515 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: Clearly there's a larger problem they are of an eight 516 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: year old now and nine year old forever. That's what 517 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: you're setting up. A death sentence cannot succeed in life 518 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: off of a felony murder charge. You need help supervision. 519 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: As doctor Marshall suggested, the mother here speaking understands it's 520 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: a tragedy and wants to get something good out of it, 521 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: as opposed to now writing awful live nine year old. 522 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: It's unconscionable to me. We know that this boy has 523 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: had thirteen previous incidents with defacts. Why were they called in? 524 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: We don't know because that is kept under seal. But 525 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: we do know that the agency always either referred the 526 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: little boy to community services or determine the allegations were 527 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: quote unfounded. Now what does that mean? All we know 528 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: is that community action and state services have not helped 529 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: so far. Now there are five dead bodies. Defects took 530 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: custody of Kyle, and that occurred shortly after the fire. 531 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: Who's put enough foster home? I'm not so sure a 532 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: foster home is wrong, Doctor Bethany Marshall. Thirteen calls so 533 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: in Department of Family Children Welfare and the little boy 534 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: is only eight. What is happening in the home that 535 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: defects has been out? Dancy, It's true, because if they 536 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: have been called out so many times, it would call 537 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: into question is there's something toxic or dysfunctional happening in 538 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: that home where either there's not enough supervision so the 539 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: child is left on his own, that the child is 540 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: acting out the distress in the family. So fire setting 541 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: is in an essence a cry for help, which is 542 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: one of the reasons children do engage in fire play 543 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: or is are the parents sort of insticating the child 544 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: to feel agitated? Now the mother, according to the mother, 545 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: the child has bipolar, attention deficit with hyperactivity and schizophrenia. 546 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: So to me, that's also a perfect storm for fire setting. 547 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,760 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you why. Attention deficit with winger activity 548 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,919 Speaker 1: would cause impulsivity where you just act without thinking. Bipolar 549 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: causes enormous amounts of energy, and schizophrenia causes poor reality 550 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: testing and fragmentation, meaning anxiety and the feeling that one 551 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: is falling apart. So agitation and fragmentation often is compensated 552 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 1: for by fire setting in children, typically with boys and 553 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: little boys are already impulsive. But if you pair that 554 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: impulsivity with enormous amounts of energy, which is what you 555 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: have with mania, this to me is a perfect storm 556 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 1: for fire setting. And also if defacts came so many times, 557 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: did the neighbors call did the mother card from the 558 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: family to control, but they wanted to keep him in 559 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: the home and they wanted to take care of him. 560 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: You know, when children act out, it's not always bad parenting. 561 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: Sometimes children are born with psychiatric syndromes, and then there 562 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: are parents who are desperate to get help for their children, 563 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: but they just don't know what to do. Regardless of 564 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: the charges, it seems that neuroscience, brain development all points 565 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,240 Speaker 1: to the fact that children this age nine years old 566 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: are not culpable for what they do. That's why until 567 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: you're an adult eighteen, you can't enter into a contract, 568 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: you can't buy a car on your own, you can't 569 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: get liquor. You can't get cigarettes are not supposed to. 570 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,800 Speaker 1: You can't get married, you can't enter into a sex 571 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: relationship under the law because you are a child, and 572 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: you may do those things without understanding the result the consequences. 573 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 1: And here is a perfect example, Jason Oceans. Apparently a 574 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,240 Speaker 1: makeshift memorial was put up and the little boy would 575 00:36:55,239 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: take food out to it, hoping that the family would 576 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: eat it and enjoy it. He You know, like when 577 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: someone's ill in our church community or a relative, I'll 578 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: make dinner and take it over there for them to 579 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: try to help them in some way. He doesn't even 580 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: understand they're dead. It's just based on the you know, 581 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 1: the psych profile that we've just listened to. Of course 582 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: he doesn't. That's why I find it shocking to the 583 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: conscience with this information out there, that the state's prosecutor 584 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: seems determined to have an adult murder charge. Okay, wait 585 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: a minute, Jason, you're ignoring the facts the way you 586 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: keep ranting. In that jurisdiction, a child cannot be put 587 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: into a state facility. I understand that under thirteen, So 588 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: he's not going to jail. He's not going to be 589 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: out the yard. Jason, any more. Of the reason not 590 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: to charge as an adult, I disagree. I'll tell you 591 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: why think you should be charge as an adult? Card 592 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,839 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what's the reason to charge if he's 593 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: not going into jail, into a facility anyway, what's are 594 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: you three with your question? You're really dragging it out. 595 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: The reason he should be charged as an adult is 596 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: because with juvenile sentences they can only last, say, five years. 597 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: What I want is not for him to go to jail. 598 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: But apparently living at home ain't working. Defect has already 599 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: been called thirteen times in eight years. He needs state 600 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,280 Speaker 1: cut his mind, he needs state supervision, he needs state 601 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: enforced therapy, He needs state enforced doctors seeing him. Bethany Marshall, 602 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 1: whatever mommy's doing is not working. Whatever she's doing is 603 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: not working, and we don't have to blame her or 604 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 1: the child to blame. I think we get so. No, 605 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,479 Speaker 1: I'm not yeah, I'm not saying it's her fault. I'm 606 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: saying whatever is happening is not working. I'm not saying 607 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: that she's beating the child or hurting the child. I'm 608 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: saying whatever they're doing did not work. And now there's 609 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 1: five did by three of them toddlers. The reason I 610 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 1: said that is that neighbors, family members the system is 611 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: often afraid to report and to remove the child from 612 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: the home because they confuse it with blaming the parents 613 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: or the child. And I think it's important for the 614 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 1: listeners to know that we're not casting blame. We're just saying, 615 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: as you just so eloquently put it, it's not working. 616 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: And if it's not working to such disastrous effect, there 617 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,320 Speaker 1: are systems in place. There ares one in Orange County 618 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: for child fire setters where they're they're very carefully delineated 619 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 1: protocols for helping children who have impulsivity in acting out 620 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 1: in this specific area. And what's unfortunate to me is 621 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,399 Speaker 1: when he's removed into a home, then he's not going 622 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: to have that one on one tie to the mother. 623 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: And yet sometimes I see in clinical practice Nancy being 624 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: with a foster parent or some third degree relative is 625 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: more helpful than being with the primary parent if there's 626 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: such severe failures in the parents' ability to contain the 627 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: child's behavior. Children playing with fire sent more than twenty 628 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: thousand fires every year. That's an average of almost four 629 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: hundred fires each week. Fire started by children just playing 630 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: cause an average of one hundred and fifty deaths and 631 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: nearly one thousand injuries every year. This child, God help him, 632 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: needs help and supervision for a very long time. We 633 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace crime story signing off 634 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 1: Goodbye friend.