WEBVTT - Fire Drill 039: Patrick Reed vs. Brandel Chamblee 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.800 I know you guys are not lawyers, and I don't 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:10.160 want to get like hyper technical um in in discussing 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:13.200 this lawsuit. But you know there's there's a legal word 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:17.599 that you can use to describe Patrick Green's lawsuit and 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:23.520 that lawsuit. That word is it's a joke. I don't know. 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:27.240 I'm not getting too technical here. I hope I got 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:32.880 thoughts in my head. Can't get John nothing think what 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:39.360 I'm thinking about. Gown thoughts, can't get him out not 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:51.160 to think what I'm thinking about. Hello, this is Alan 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:54.080 Schip knock back for another Fire Drill podcast. I have 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:56.960 Michael Bamberger coming to us from the Wilmington Country Club 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:00.760 because he's stalking the FedEx Cup, and we're delied to 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:05.039 be joined by Jeffrey Tubin, legal expert, author of eight 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:06.920 books a bunch you've heard of and have been turned 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:09.640 into a TV and movies and all kinds of fun stuff. 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.080 So Jeffrey, thank you so much for being here. We 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:15.480 really appreciate it. Great to be with you. I'm allowed 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:18.039 to be with you. Even though I found out my 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:22.760 index is now up to fifteen point four. I'm so appalled, 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:26.919 but I guess I can still participate in this conversation. 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:31.279 It makes you more relatable to the listeners and also 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:35.560 very relatable if you take the meme between Tubans Index 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:38.280 and the other Jeff Jeff Fogilby's We've got a nice 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:43.720 single Tojit Handicapper. Yeah, exactly. Now that there's if we 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:46.400 ever do a company golf tournament at the fire Pit Collective, 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:48.760 it's gonna be very interesting. We have a wide range 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.880 of handicaps and abilities, including a US Open champ. So um, 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:55.720 we wanted to have you here today, Jeff, because we 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:58.160 could talk about the FedEx Cup playoffs. We could talk 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:01.600 about you know, Rory McRoy golf swing, but nobody cares 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:03.720 about that stuff. All that matters in golf these days 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:08.160 litigation and all these all these macro issues, and you're 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:12.519 uniquely position to help us through this. I thought we'd 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:16.120 start with the Patrick Read lawsuit against Brandel Shambli and 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:18.600 the PGA Tour just because it's such. Is any fun 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.440 of my reading and I'm not a I'm not a 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:24.280 legal expert. I just play one on the internet. Is 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:27.320 that it's more of a public relations document that doesn't 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:29.919 have a lot of merit. But what do you make 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:34.000 of of Read's assertions, and does this thing have any 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.639 chance of going the distance into an actual trial? Well, um, like, 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.480 I know, you guys are not lawyers, and I don't 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.840 want to get like hyper technical um in in discussing 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:47.880 this lawsuit. But you know, there's there's a legal word 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:52.320 that you can use to describe Patrick Read's lawsuit and 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:58.200 that lawsuit. That word is it's a joke. I don't know, 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:00.480 I'm not getting too technical here, I hope no. I 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:05.680 mean it's it's it's I mean there are judges who, 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:11.000 upon receiving that complaint would sanction the lawyers who brought 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:14.720 it because it's so frivolous um. And I mean we 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:18.800 can go into why, but just as a bottom line judgment, 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.519 there is no way, uh, that case will ever get 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.560 to trial, much less, um, reach any sort of result 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.760 for for for Read. I mean, it's it's just preposterous. Well, 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:34.760 let's do to tell us you why is it a joke? Okay, Well, 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:39.960 there's sort of two. There two parts to his complaint. Um. 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:46.360 The first is that um, he alleges libel or defamation, 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:48.360 you know, which is a tort, which is you know, 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:54.760 damage damaging someone's reputation unfairly. And there's sort of two 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:59.720 collections of complaints that he has about stuff that Brandall 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:04.720 Chambly Schambily said on on the Golf Channel. One relates 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:09.240 to the Live Tour and the other part relates to 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:14.760 Read specifically and his his history of alleged cheating. And 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:18.160 in the first part, you know Schambily has is you know, 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:20.920 anyone who follows the Golf Channel knows that he's been 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:25.479 very um hostile condemn tory of the Live Tour and 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:28.679 saying that, you know, the Saudis are have a terrible 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:32.080 human rights record and you shouldn't be associated with killers, 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:35.839 and and and Read quotes a lot of those comments 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:39.880 about the Live Tour, but he doesn't say anything about 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:43.039 Read in those comments. I mean, he's just denouncing the 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:46.760 Live Tour. So you know, one of the basics of 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:49.760 the torque defamation is that it has to be about 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:53.400 you in order to bring the lawsuit. So those so 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:57.920 those parts just regardless of the truth or falsity or whatever, 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:02.279 they get thrown out because they're just not about Patrick Reed. 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.400 You know, he is obviously now in the Live Tour, 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.680 but you know, there's no transitive property I mean you 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:11.599 had had the statement has to be about you. Now. 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:14.960 The more interesting and an amusing part of the lawsuit 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:21.240 relates to um reads shall we say, history of problems 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:27.120 with the rules of golf and uh particularly um this 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.560 incident that took place. I guess it's almost two years 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:35.120 ago now, um the the embedded ball controversy, where I 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.280 assume you're extremely learned and sophisticated audience is familiar with 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:42.680 this already. But you know, I forgot which tournament it was. 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:48.120 Do you guys remember Pines Story Pines where he he 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:52.080 hit a ball into the rough. He said it was embedded, 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:56.000 so he was entitled to a free drop. But and 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:59.200 that was and the cameras saw him do it, and 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.560 he just sort of picked up the ball and took 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:05.159 it upon himself to decide the ball was embedded rather 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:08.720 than calling over a rules official. I would say the 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:13.520 reaction of the golf world was approximately you know, Ukraine 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:19.080 Russia level of anger. It was just you know, people 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:23.040 with nuts because read you know, has a history of 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.279 of of controversies and you guys know this, you know, 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.159 are a lot more familiar than I am. I wouldn't 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.320 say he was ever the most popular player on the 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:37.960 on the PGA tour. Um and Champloe, with his usual restraint, 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.240 you know, said it was cheating, said it was outrageous, 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:44.880 said it was terrible. And so that clearly was about 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:49.880 about Read. So that box is checked. The problem is 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:56.719 is that under the First Amendment, UM, opinions are protected. Um. 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:01.640 You you you can say, um anything, You can have 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:05.080 any opinion you want. What you can say is something 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:10.000 factual about someone that that is false, and I think 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:15.920 one at one level, UM, this would be dismissed because, um, 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:18.480 it's just a protected opinion. He thought it was cheating 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.800 other people. You know, the the ultimately Read was not 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:27.480 penalized for the drop. But you know, sports journalism is 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:33.480 all about criticizing players, criticizing officials, saying they were wrong, 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:38.560 and in that respect it's just protected opinion. The other 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:42.160 the other you know, part of the legal aspects here 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.040 is that Read is a public figure, and there are 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:51.400 special rules about libel and defamation cases involving public figures, 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:56.040 and and basically, um, even if a statement is false 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.680 about you and you're a public figure, you have to 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:03.120 prove that the statement was made with what's called actual 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:07.440 malice and actual malice means either you knew what you 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:12.360 said was false or you had reckless disregard for whether 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:17.920 it was it was false. Now now Shamble will say, uh, 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:21.400 not only didn't I know it was false, I believe 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:24.520 it was true. I believed he was cheating, and so 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:28.360 it would get thrown out on that on that theory 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:33.520 as well. So so Reed's case is really of no 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:38.880 merit at all. And you know, he and you guys 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:43.080 you know, probably better judge, better position to answer this 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:46.720 than I am. But you know, it's it's designed to 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:49.199 help his reputation. Do you think this is going to 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.880 help his reputation filing this scoofy lawsuit? I mean I 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:57.920 think it's it's likely to have just the opposite, Yeah, Michael, 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:02.640 I mean for sure. It just it's it's nonsensical. And 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:05.240 the one thing that I thought was interesting that they 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:07.720 kept coming back to in in the brief was that 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:12.280 that Read was exonerated by the rules officials or he 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:15.480 accepted the penalty, And they said, well, uh, you know, 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.160 he broke the rules, but that's not Accidentally, that's not 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:20.880 the same as cheating. And I guess I wonder if 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.840 that gives them any merit in this whether because the 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:28.160 PGA tours over and over exonerated Patrick or carried his 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:30.480 water or just slapped him on the wrist, they've never 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.080 suspended him that we know of. They haven't sanctioned him 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:36.280 in a big way that you know, the weight of 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:40.400 the Professional Golf Association is like, well, he didn't he 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:43.520 didn't really do anything that bad. And that's where there's 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:46.720 a departure between what Brandle saying versus what the official 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.360 version is that does that Does that pose any jeopardy 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:53.640 for brandal? I don't think so, because you know, this 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:59.160 is journalism and this is you know, commentary and read it. 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:01.160 Read is a public figure in a in a in 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:05.960 a sport where there's a great deal of public attention, 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:14.520 and journalists are entitled to make judgments about um, about 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:18.640 you know what, whether people behave honorably or not. Now, 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:23.240 if if Brandon Chambley said on the air that, um, 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:28.440 you know, Patrick Reed has been convicted of bank fraud, UM, 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.960 that's very likely to be libelous because that's a factual 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:36.680 statement that um would be false. Now let me just 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:39.440 say Patrick Reed has not been convicted of bank fraud. 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.520 But that's that's the kind of thing that could give 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:49.280 rise to a libel suit. But cheater is is a 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:55.280 matter is both a matter of opinion and something that 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.480 is an inference that you could draw from what what 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.760 happened here. Now, I don't know enough about the rules 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.920 of golf frankly to know you know who's right and 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:09.040 all that, But I know enough about libel law to 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:13.040 know that this is something that people debate and um, 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:16.440 have strong opinions about, and that's what the first dependment 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:20.280 is designed to protect. And also, Jeff, I'm I'm sure 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:23.240 you took evidence at Harvard Law School. He interfered with 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:27.720 the evidence. Um, you know, golf is sort of like soccer, 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:30.640 where where you're never supposed to touch that golfo except 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:32.040 for on the tay and then taking it out of 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:35.240 the cup. That's the broad strokes starting point. So when 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:37.800 your ball is in a funky situation that does happen 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.800 quite frequently in any round of golf, you're supposed to 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:43.120 you know, you you mentioned bring over the rules official. Well, 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:44.559 the first thing you're supposed to do is get your 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.920 fellow players involved. Not every situation requires the rules official. 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.199 When he touched that golf ball, he interfered with the evidence, 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:54.720 and really everything that happened after that was half a 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:58.000 joke in terms of the rules of golf, or really 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:02.120 half is probably understating it because because the crime scene 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:03.960 if you want to call it that, and I'm not 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:06.880 saying it's a crime scene because I picked up at 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.440 one tube and did earlier. But if you would like 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:12.600 to call it a crime scene, um was already interfered with. 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:16.840 So it was shall we say, fucked up on many levels, yes, 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.040 And and just to take it back to the basis 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:23.960 for this is, you know, Chambley was making the point 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:27.600 that you're making, which is he's just what he did 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:30.000 was wrong. And if you want to call it cheating, 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:31.560 or you want to call it being a jerk, or 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:34.320 you want to call it um, you know, being a 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.960 unethical golfer. That's why we have a First Amendment to 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:42.120 be able to say things like that about about public figures. 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:45.839 Because as I as I you know, recall the Constitutional Convention, 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:50.319 there was a lot of discussion about golf. Um no 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:59.160 but there. But but the the idea that there should 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.959 be robust and aid of public issues is certainly something 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:05.600 that the First Amendment is designed to protect. The only 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:08.760 thing that because I know this from watching movies and 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:10.360 a little bit from my brother who was a few 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:14.160 years ahead of you in law school. Um, you also 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.920 have the weight of history. And sometimes it's a bit 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.280 of all and some admissi admissible and sometimes it's not. 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.640 But of course, as many of our listeners would know, 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:26.320 he has had a previous history. And I'm not talking 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:28.600 about all the allegations that have improven. I'm just talking 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:30.440 about the one that we could all see watching the 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.719 golf tournament on TV and the Bahamas tournament what do 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.800 they call it, Alan, whatever your challenge, thank you the 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.920 hero of event that that was the thing and the 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:43.359 thing of the bunker. So once you have that reputation, 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:48.000 like Ricky Fowler, not a lawyer, very good golfer. He 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.760 watched it almost you know, he watched a video replay 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:52.719 of it, and he's there at the tournament. And one 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.440 of our former colleagues was there at the tournaman as well, 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:58.400 a Dylan to cheer, and Fowler said the moment, I 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.360 don't even think I don't even think there's a debate here. 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:04.440 You can't ground your club there, and it was well, 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:06.480 now I'm going down the Chamblie Road, which I really 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:08.920 shouldn't do in this sentences we have jump on, but 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:13.200 just to finish at one thought, they kind of did read. 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:16.080 I think it disservice by allowing them to continue in 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.520 that tournament when it was so egregious, and it brings 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.040 in many other factors, one of which it is Tiger's event. 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:25.360 Read was Tiger's pick for the President's Cup. The next 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.000 week they were golf or that Sunday night they're all 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:30.520 flying to Australia to play in the President's Cup. So 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:34.680 there were lots of different other other mitigating factors at 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.640 play in that event. But that event in a way 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:41.120 was a stepping stone to this event. Yeah. Well, the 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:43.960 rules of golf, they don't happen in a vacuum. I mean, 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.160 there are human beings involved, and there's agendas. We've seen 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:48.480 that Augusta National over and over where they've been the 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.720 rules for the stars, and so, uh, that's a that's 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:53.320 a really good point, Michael. There was a lot going 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:55.760 on there besides just this did a few grains of 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:57.640 sand move, it was. It was much bigger than that 0:14:57.680 --> 0:14:59.960 in the moment, and now you know, before we get 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:01.440 to your other area, which is really in the area 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:04.760 of contract law. Let's get Mr Tuban on this question, 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:09.400 if we may. Um. There's a lot of discussion in 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.880 our country there always has been in recent years, especially 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.480 that we are a country of laws. We are governed 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:16.840 by a rule of law. Without it, we have chaos. 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:19.240 And we've seen a book called Chaos about the about 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:23.040 the Trump administration. I'm just like, because I've been hon 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:25.640 at soapbox about this really pretty much all my adult life. 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.520 But I'd like to hear your view of there are 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:30.760 a lot of lawyers who are interested in golf. But 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:35.240 the relationship between a system of laws that golf has 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:39.480 and that our American democracy has, and the protection of 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.360 sanity for lack of a better word, and the and 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:50.240 the tampering down of chaos. Wow, that's a that's a 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:53.720 big That's that's a big subject there. I guess I 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:57.520 don't know if this is an appropriate answer to what 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:00.200 you're you're saying, but I guess one of the things 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.760 that has always fascinated me about golf, particularly at the 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:10.560 highest levels, is the degree to which the participants um 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:15.480 are the judges, which is something we don't allow in 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:20.040 most other circumstances. And it's something that I think is 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:23.960 really kind of wonderful about golf, and I think it 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:28.960 is part of what it's part of, UM, what makes 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:32.960 the Patrick Reed story so interesting is that these golfers 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.720 you know, who have millions of dollars on the line, 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:41.360 UM you know, call called the equivalent of fouls on themselves, 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:44.480 and and they really do do it, and they take 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:49.600 that part of the game very seriously, UM. And I 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:54.240 it's so different from the rest of our society, which 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:59.160 you know, increasingly um seems to seems to have very 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:03.120 few rules that that people subscribe to it all. And 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:05.600 when there are rules, they have to be imposed by 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.960 the courts. Um. No one is going to be calling 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:13.720 fouls on themselves politically or or otherwise. And that's why 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:19.439 I just think golf is so interesting because at least 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.920 still for the time being, it operates according to an 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.359 honor system that it's very different from the rest of society. 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:32.840 Very well said, thank you, Alan, the floor is yours. Yeah, 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:36.160 that was that was profound, and that's part of the charm. 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:37.959 And so that Michael always goes back to, I mean, 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:42.320 the foundation of the game is the rules and golfers 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:45.320 observing them. So that that that was really beautifully said. 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:50.679 So the Patrick Read lawsuit kind of fun, kind of silly, 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:54.080 a bit of a side show, but really this antitrust 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:57.639 suit between the live golfers Michelson at All versus the 0:17:57.680 --> 0:17:59.879 PGA Tour is a huge deal that has potential to 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.600 reshape the entire landscape of professional golf. And that that's 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:05.480 where we wanted your expertise a little bit, Jeff, is 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:10.479 to understand, Uh, is this a real thing? I mean, Uh, 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.119 there's there's been a lot of talk about you know, 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:15.640 they not have a date. They're gonna go to trial 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.000 in January of twenty four if it doesn't get settled 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:22.040 ahead of time. Um, you know this this could be 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:24.119 a bombshell for professional golf. What does your take on 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:27.400 the lawsuit and where do you think the game is headed? Well, 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.399 let me let me just start by saying that, you know, 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.399 this is not the Patrick Reed lawsuit. This is a 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:38.360 very serious lawsuit with serious lawyers, with with good arguments 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.320 on both sides. You know, I have a view of 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:46.720 the outcome, but my view is not nearly as certain 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:48.679 as it is about the Patrick Reed case. The the 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:52.800 anti try, this, the the the the issue the rubric 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:55.639 of law that this lawsuit is under his anti trust 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.600 and anti trust is a very discreet area of law. 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:04.320 Um that at um is frankly you know, not not 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:08.560 understood really well by non specialist but you know this 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.680 is a serious lawsuit. I mean, just to cut to 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.880 the chase, I think ultimately the PGA Tour would win 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.400 if this case goes you know, actually goes the distance. 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:23.080 But um, it's not a frivolous lawsuit by any means. 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:29.080 And and I could see another another result, and and 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.880 I was, can I just explain why why I think that? 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.160 And I think that's literally why you're here. That's true, 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:38.080 I know, I I but I just didn't want to 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:42.400 filibuster here. Um. I think it's it's useful to sometimes 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:44.840 think about anti trust in terms of sort of metaphors 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:47.399 to two things we can relate to. I mean, the 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:54.320 PGA Tours view of this is essentially, Um, we we are, 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:58.119 we are an employer and and we're like you know, 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.199 we have let's say we're we're an oil company and 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.680 we're we're excellent, and we we hire engineers, and our 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:08.480 engineers have contracts with us, and our engineer, one engineer 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.080 comes to us and says, well, you know, I'd also 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:16.920 like to be an engineer for Shell UM and the 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:18.840 excellent says, well, what do you mean you can't You 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:23.000 can't work for both companies. They like, you gotta pick one, 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:25.760 and and he says, no, no no, no, I really want 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:27.479 to work for Shell And in fact, I'm gonna go 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:32.600 like help them drill a whale and okay, you do that, 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.040 but you're gonna get fired here, and then you get fired. 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:39.159 That's that's how the PA views their situation visa v. 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:43.760 The Lift Tour. Now, the Lift Tour's view is no, no, no, 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:50.120 it's not like, uh, two different companies. It's one company, 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:53.320 the p g A Tour that runs all of professional golf, 0:20:54.040 --> 0:21:00.120 and we can't compete on a on a level playing 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:04.480 field because this is a monopoly situation that they have 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:12.600 monopolized professional golf and um UM so we have to 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:17.640 be allowed to both participate in um our own tournaments 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:20.359 and the Lift Tour, but also participate in the pg 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:25.000 A Tour. And I think they're too good. Responses to 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.760 that um by the by the PGA Tour in their 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:32.320 court papers and in general, the first is we're not 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:36.240 a monopoly because there's the Lift Tour, and the Lift 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:41.200 Tour has gotten an enormous amount of money and attention 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:49.200 and players and um, so that's the key. So you 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:52.840 can't claim that you're this big success at the same 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:56.840 time as claiming you're this horrible victim of the big Man, 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:01.560 big bad PGA Tour and other argument that I think 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:04.520 is is a strong one on big card behalf of 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:11.040 the the p g A Tour is the biggest tournaments 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:15.399 in golf. The biggest issue, the four biggest events in 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:20.960 golf are not under our control. And at least so far, 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:24.359 the Lived Tour participants are allowed to play in the 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:26.800 four majors. You know, the U s g A runs 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:29.040 the the the US Open, the p g A runs 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:33.120 the p g A, UM Augustin National runs the Masters, 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:36.440 and the Royal and Ancient runs runs the British Open. 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:40.640 We don't We're not in charge of them. So how 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:44.600 can you say where a monopoly? And you know, Alan, 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:48.040 I was, I was reading your your scoop about what 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:52.040 went on at the you know, the Tiger, you know 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:58.879 session with with the top players, and you know, I 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:02.560 thought it fascinating of of sort of how they want 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:07.640 the PGA tour to respond uh to the live tour, 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:10.119 and you know, they create these new super tournaments with 0:23:10.200 --> 0:23:13.240 no cuts, and and and what occurred to me in 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:18.840 reading your piece was the private market is working here. 0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:23.480 That there there are these two competing entities and they 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:28.080 are essentially bidding for the services of the top players, 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:31.320 and they are trying to make the best deal. And 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:35.119 if I'm a judge looking at this, I'm gonna say, 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:37.440 why do I want to get involved in this? Let 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.439 let them, let them fight it out, I and and 0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:44.720 not I I don't I there's just no need for 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:48.840 judicial intervention here because this is you know, the the 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:54.240 the the free market for top professional golfers and employers. 0:23:54.960 --> 0:23:57.960 You know, they're not technically employers, their independent contractors, but 0:23:58.040 --> 0:24:01.000 the people who run the business start competing for the 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:04.600 services of the top people, and let him fight it out. 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:06.520 And I don't you know, don't make a federal case 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:11.200 out of it. So that's my take. Well, that's fascinating. 0:24:11.320 --> 0:24:14.679 Go ahead, Mike. Well, Jeff, if you uh, as a 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:18.360 student of politics and and and the love both, UH, 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:20.080 if you were hired for a week to be the 0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:22.800 advisor to Jay Monhan, what would you tell him to 0:24:22.800 --> 0:24:26.080 do right now legally and politically. Well, I mean it's 0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:30.120 the one thing that I think he's done that that 0:24:30.240 --> 0:24:35.880 is smart is he's let the players talk, not himself. 0:24:36.000 --> 0:24:41.120 That the spokesman for the players have been the players. 0:24:41.160 --> 0:24:43.760 I mean, it's been Rory McElroy, it's been it's been 0:24:44.320 --> 0:24:50.159 Justin Thomas, um, you know, and and and Tiger to 0:24:50.160 --> 0:24:53.760 to to a certain extent. And and that I think 0:24:54.119 --> 0:24:57.960 is is smart because you know, he's he's a bureaucrat. 0:24:58.359 --> 0:25:00.600 He makes all you know, all of his money is 0:25:00.640 --> 0:25:03.080 due to the skill of others. So I think that's 0:25:03.119 --> 0:25:04.600 been it's been a smart I mean, I think he 0:25:04.640 --> 0:25:07.199 gave he did one interview with Jim Nance, you know, 0:25:07.520 --> 0:25:10.199 during a tournament. But as far as I'm aware, he 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:14.160