1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: I know you guys are not lawyers, and I don't 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: want to get like hyper technical um in in discussing 3 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: this lawsuit. But you know there's there's a legal word 4 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: that you can use to describe Patrick Green's lawsuit and 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: that lawsuit. That word is it's a joke. I don't know. 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: I'm not getting too technical here. I hope I got 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: thoughts in my head. Can't get John nothing think what 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about. Gown thoughts, can't get him out not 9 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: to think what I'm thinking about. Hello, this is Alan 10 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: Schip knock back for another Fire Drill podcast. I have 11 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: Michael Bamberger coming to us from the Wilmington Country Club 12 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: because he's stalking the FedEx Cup, and we're delied to 13 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: be joined by Jeffrey Tubin, legal expert, author of eight 14 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: books a bunch you've heard of and have been turned 15 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: into a TV and movies and all kinds of fun stuff. 16 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: So Jeffrey, thank you so much for being here. We 17 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: really appreciate it. Great to be with you. I'm allowed 18 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: to be with you. Even though I found out my 19 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: index is now up to fifteen point four. I'm so appalled, 20 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,919 Speaker 1: but I guess I can still participate in this conversation. 21 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,279 Speaker 1: It makes you more relatable to the listeners and also 22 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: very relatable if you take the meme between Tubans Index 23 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: and the other Jeff Jeff Fogilby's We've got a nice 24 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: single Tojit Handicapper. Yeah, exactly. Now that there's if we 25 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: ever do a company golf tournament at the fire Pit Collective, 26 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: it's gonna be very interesting. We have a wide range 27 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: of handicaps and abilities, including a US Open champ. So um, 28 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: we wanted to have you here today, Jeff, because we 29 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: could talk about the FedEx Cup playoffs. We could talk 30 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: about you know, Rory McRoy golf swing, but nobody cares 31 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: about that stuff. All that matters in golf these days 32 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: litigation and all these all these macro issues, and you're 33 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 1: uniquely position to help us through this. I thought we'd 34 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: start with the Patrick Read lawsuit against Brandel Shambli and 35 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: the PGA Tour just because it's such. Is any fun 36 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: of my reading and I'm not a I'm not a 37 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: legal expert. I just play one on the internet. Is 38 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: that it's more of a public relations document that doesn't 39 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: have a lot of merit. But what do you make 40 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: of of Read's assertions, and does this thing have any 41 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 1: chance of going the distance into an actual trial? Well, um, like, 42 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: I know, you guys are not lawyers, and I don't 43 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: want to get like hyper technical um in in discussing 44 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: this lawsuit. But you know, there's there's a legal word 45 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: that you can use to describe Patrick Read's lawsuit and 46 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: that lawsuit. That word is it's a joke. I don't know, 47 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: I'm not getting too technical here, I hope no. I 48 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: mean it's it's it's I mean there are judges who, 49 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: upon receiving that complaint would sanction the lawyers who brought 50 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: it because it's so frivolous um. And I mean we 51 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: can go into why, but just as a bottom line judgment, 52 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: there is no way, uh, that case will ever get 53 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: to trial, much less, um, reach any sort of result 54 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: for for for Read. I mean, it's it's just preposterous. Well, 55 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: let's do to tell us you why is it a joke? Okay, Well, 56 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: there's sort of two. There two parts to his complaint. Um. 57 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: The first is that um, he alleges libel or defamation, 58 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: you know, which is a tort, which is you know, 59 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: damage damaging someone's reputation unfairly. And there's sort of two 60 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: collections of complaints that he has about stuff that Brandall 61 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: Chambly Schambily said on on the Golf Channel. One relates 62 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: to the Live Tour and the other part relates to 63 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: Read specifically and his his history of alleged cheating. And 64 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: in the first part, you know Schambily has is you know, 65 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: anyone who follows the Golf Channel knows that he's been 66 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: very um hostile condemn tory of the Live Tour and 67 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,679 Speaker 1: saying that, you know, the Saudis are have a terrible 68 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: human rights record and you shouldn't be associated with killers, 69 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: and and and Read quotes a lot of those comments 70 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: about the Live Tour, but he doesn't say anything about 71 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: Read in those comments. I mean, he's just denouncing the 72 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: Live Tour. So you know, one of the basics of 73 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: the torque defamation is that it has to be about 74 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: you in order to bring the lawsuit. So those so 75 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: those parts just regardless of the truth or falsity or whatever, 76 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: they get thrown out because they're just not about Patrick Reed. 77 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: You know, he is obviously now in the Live Tour, 78 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: but you know, there's no transitive property I mean you 79 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: had had the statement has to be about you. Now. 80 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: The more interesting and an amusing part of the lawsuit 81 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: relates to um reads shall we say, history of problems 82 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: with the rules of golf and uh particularly um this 83 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: incident that took place. I guess it's almost two years 84 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: ago now, um the the embedded ball controversy, where I 85 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: assume you're extremely learned and sophisticated audience is familiar with 86 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: this already. But you know, I forgot which tournament it was. 87 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: Do you guys remember Pines Story Pines where he he 88 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: hit a ball into the rough. He said it was embedded, 89 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: so he was entitled to a free drop. But and 90 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: that was and the cameras saw him do it, and 91 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: he just sort of picked up the ball and took 92 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: it upon himself to decide the ball was embedded rather 93 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 1: than calling over a rules official. I would say the 94 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: reaction of the golf world was approximately you know, Ukraine 95 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: Russia level of anger. It was just you know, people 96 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: with nuts because read you know, has a history of 97 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: of of controversies and you guys know this, you know, 98 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: are a lot more familiar than I am. I wouldn't 99 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: say he was ever the most popular player on the 100 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: on the PGA tour. Um and Champloe, with his usual restraint, 101 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: you know, said it was cheating, said it was outrageous, 102 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: said it was terrible. And so that clearly was about 103 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: about Read. So that box is checked. The problem is 104 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: is that under the First Amendment, UM, opinions are protected. Um. 105 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: You you you can say, um anything, You can have 106 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: any opinion you want. What you can say is something 107 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: factual about someone that that is false, and I think 108 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: one at one level, UM, this would be dismissed because, um, 109 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: it's just a protected opinion. He thought it was cheating 110 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: other people. You know, the the ultimately Read was not 111 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: penalized for the drop. But you know, sports journalism is 112 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: all about criticizing players, criticizing officials, saying they were wrong, 113 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: and in that respect it's just protected opinion. The other 114 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: the other you know, part of the legal aspects here 115 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: is that Read is a public figure, and there are 116 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: special rules about libel and defamation cases involving public figures, 117 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: and and basically, um, even if a statement is false 118 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: about you and you're a public figure, you have to 119 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: prove that the statement was made with what's called actual 120 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: malice and actual malice means either you knew what you 121 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: said was false or you had reckless disregard for whether 122 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: it was it was false. Now now Shamble will say, uh, 123 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: not only didn't I know it was false, I believe 124 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: it was true. I believed he was cheating, and so 125 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: it would get thrown out on that on that theory 126 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: as well. So so Reed's case is really of no 127 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: merit at all. And you know, he and you guys 128 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: you know, probably better judge, better position to answer this 129 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: than I am. But you know, it's it's designed to 130 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: help his reputation. Do you think this is going to 131 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: help his reputation filing this scoofy lawsuit? I mean I 132 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: think it's it's likely to have just the opposite, Yeah, Michael, 133 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: I mean for sure. It just it's it's nonsensical. And 134 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: the one thing that I thought was interesting that they 135 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: kept coming back to in in the brief was that 136 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: that Read was exonerated by the rules officials or he 137 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: accepted the penalty, And they said, well, uh, you know, 138 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: he broke the rules, but that's not Accidentally, that's not 139 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: the same as cheating. And I guess I wonder if 140 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: that gives them any merit in this whether because the 141 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: PGA tours over and over exonerated Patrick or carried his 142 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: water or just slapped him on the wrist, they've never 143 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: suspended him that we know of. They haven't sanctioned him 144 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: in a big way that you know, the weight of 145 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: the Professional Golf Association is like, well, he didn't he 146 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: didn't really do anything that bad. And that's where there's 147 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: a departure between what Brandle saying versus what the official 148 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: version is that does that Does that pose any jeopardy 149 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: for brandal? I don't think so, because you know, this 150 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: is journalism and this is you know, commentary and read it. 151 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: Read is a public figure in a in a in 152 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: a sport where there's a great deal of public attention, 153 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: and journalists are entitled to make judgments about um, about 154 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: you know what, whether people behave honorably or not. Now, 155 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: if if Brandon Chambley said on the air that, um, 156 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: you know, Patrick Reed has been convicted of bank fraud, UM, 157 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: that's very likely to be libelous because that's a factual 158 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 1: statement that um would be false. Now let me just 159 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: say Patrick Reed has not been convicted of bank fraud. 160 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: But that's that's the kind of thing that could give 161 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: rise to a libel suit. But cheater is is a 162 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: matter is both a matter of opinion and something that 163 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: is an inference that you could draw from what what 164 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: happened here. Now, I don't know enough about the rules 165 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: of golf frankly to know you know who's right and 166 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: all that, But I know enough about libel law to 167 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: know that this is something that people debate and um, 168 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: have strong opinions about, and that's what the first dependment 169 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: is designed to protect. And also, Jeff, I'm I'm sure 170 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: you took evidence at Harvard Law School. He interfered with 171 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: the evidence. Um, you know, golf is sort of like soccer, 172 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: where where you're never supposed to touch that golfo except 173 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: for on the tay and then taking it out of 174 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: the cup. That's the broad strokes starting point. So when 175 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: your ball is in a funky situation that does happen 176 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: quite frequently in any round of golf, you're supposed to 177 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: you know, you you mentioned bring over the rules official. Well, 178 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 1: the first thing you're supposed to do is get your 179 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: fellow players involved. Not every situation requires the rules official. 180 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: When he touched that golf ball, he interfered with the evidence, 181 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: and really everything that happened after that was half a 182 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: joke in terms of the rules of golf, or really 183 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: half is probably understating it because because the crime scene 184 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: if you want to call it that, and I'm not 185 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: saying it's a crime scene because I picked up at 186 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: one tube and did earlier. But if you would like 187 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: to call it a crime scene, um was already interfered with. 188 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: So it was shall we say, fucked up on many levels, yes, 189 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: And and just to take it back to the basis 190 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: for this is, you know, Chambley was making the point 191 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: that you're making, which is he's just what he did 192 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: was wrong. And if you want to call it cheating, 193 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: or you want to call it being a jerk, or 194 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: you want to call it um, you know, being a 195 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: unethical golfer. That's why we have a First Amendment to 196 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: be able to say things like that about about public figures. 197 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,839 Speaker 1: Because as I as I you know, recall the Constitutional Convention, 198 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,319 Speaker 1: there was a lot of discussion about golf. Um no 199 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: but there. But but the the idea that there should 200 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: be robust and aid of public issues is certainly something 201 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: that the First Amendment is designed to protect. The only 202 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: thing that because I know this from watching movies and 203 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: a little bit from my brother who was a few 204 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: years ahead of you in law school. Um, you also 205 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: have the weight of history. And sometimes it's a bit 206 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: of all and some admissi admissible and sometimes it's not. 207 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: But of course, as many of our listeners would know, 208 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: he has had a previous history. And I'm not talking 209 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: about all the allegations that have improven. I'm just talking 210 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: about the one that we could all see watching the 211 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,719 Speaker 1: golf tournament on TV and the Bahamas tournament what do 212 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: they call it, Alan, whatever your challenge, thank you the 213 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: hero of event that that was the thing and the 214 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,359 Speaker 1: thing of the bunker. So once you have that reputation, 215 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: like Ricky Fowler, not a lawyer, very good golfer. He 216 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: watched it almost you know, he watched a video replay 217 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:52,719 Speaker 1: of it, and he's there at the tournament. And one 218 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: of our former colleagues was there at the tournaman as well, 219 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: a Dylan to cheer, and Fowler said the moment, I 220 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: don't even think I don't even think there's a debate here. 221 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: You can't ground your club there, and it was well, 222 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: now I'm going down the Chamblie Road, which I really 223 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: shouldn't do in this sentences we have jump on, but 224 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: just to finish at one thought, they kind of did read. 225 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: I think it disservice by allowing them to continue in 226 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: that tournament when it was so egregious, and it brings 227 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: in many other factors, one of which it is Tiger's event. 228 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: Read was Tiger's pick for the President's Cup. The next 229 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: week they were golf or that Sunday night they're all 230 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: flying to Australia to play in the President's Cup. So 231 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: there were lots of different other other mitigating factors at 232 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: play in that event. But that event in a way 233 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: was a stepping stone to this event. Yeah. Well, the 234 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: rules of golf, they don't happen in a vacuum. I mean, 235 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: there are human beings involved, and there's agendas. We've seen 236 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: that Augusta National over and over where they've been the 237 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: rules for the stars, and so, uh, that's a that's 238 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: a really good point, Michael. There was a lot going 239 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: on there besides just this did a few grains of 240 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: sand move, it was. It was much bigger than that 241 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: in the moment, and now you know, before we get 242 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: to your other area, which is really in the area 243 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: of contract law. Let's get Mr Tuban on this question, 244 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: if we may. Um. There's a lot of discussion in 245 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: our country there always has been in recent years, especially 246 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: that we are a country of laws. We are governed 247 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: by a rule of law. Without it, we have chaos. 248 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: And we've seen a book called Chaos about the about 249 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: the Trump administration. I'm just like, because I've been hon 250 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: at soapbox about this really pretty much all my adult life. 251 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: But I'd like to hear your view of there are 252 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: a lot of lawyers who are interested in golf. But 253 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: the relationship between a system of laws that golf has 254 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: and that our American democracy has, and the protection of 255 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: sanity for lack of a better word, and the and 256 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: the tampering down of chaos. Wow, that's a that's a 257 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: big That's that's a big subject there. I guess I 258 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: don't know if this is an appropriate answer to what 259 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: you're you're saying, but I guess one of the things 260 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: that has always fascinated me about golf, particularly at the 261 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: highest levels, is the degree to which the participants um 262 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: are the judges, which is something we don't allow in 263 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: most other circumstances. And it's something that I think is 264 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: really kind of wonderful about golf, and I think it 265 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: is part of what it's part of, UM, what makes 266 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: the Patrick Reed story so interesting is that these golfers 267 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: you know, who have millions of dollars on the line, 268 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: UM you know, call called the equivalent of fouls on themselves, 269 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: and and they really do do it, and they take 270 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: that part of the game very seriously, UM. And I 271 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: it's so different from the rest of our society, which 272 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: you know, increasingly um seems to seems to have very 273 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: few rules that that people subscribe to it all. And 274 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: when there are rules, they have to be imposed by 275 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: the courts. Um. No one is going to be calling 276 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: fouls on themselves politically or or otherwise. And that's why 277 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: I just think golf is so interesting because at least 278 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: still for the time being, it operates according to an 279 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: honor system that it's very different from the rest of society. 280 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: Very well said, thank you, Alan, the floor is yours. Yeah, 281 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 1: that was that was profound, and that's part of the charm. 282 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:37,959 Speaker 1: And so that Michael always goes back to, I mean, 283 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: the foundation of the game is the rules and golfers 284 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: observing them. So that that that was really beautifully said. 285 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: So the Patrick Read lawsuit kind of fun, kind of silly, 286 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: a bit of a side show, but really this antitrust 287 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: suit between the live golfers Michelson at All versus the 288 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: PGA Tour is a huge deal that has potential to 289 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: reshape the entire landscape of professional golf. And that that's 290 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: where we wanted your expertise a little bit, Jeff, is 291 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,479 Speaker 1: to understand, Uh, is this a real thing? I mean, Uh, 292 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: there's there's been a lot of talk about you know, 293 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: they not have a date. They're gonna go to trial 294 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: in January of twenty four if it doesn't get settled 295 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: ahead of time. Um, you know this this could be 296 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: a bombshell for professional golf. What does your take on 297 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: the lawsuit and where do you think the game is headed? Well, 298 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: let me let me just start by saying that, you know, 299 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: this is not the Patrick Reed lawsuit. This is a 300 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 1: very serious lawsuit with serious lawyers, with with good arguments 301 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: on both sides. You know, I have a view of 302 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: the outcome, but my view is not nearly as certain 303 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: as it is about the Patrick Reed case. The the 304 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: anti try, this, the the the the issue the rubric 305 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: of law that this lawsuit is under his anti trust 306 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: and anti trust is a very discreet area of law. 307 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: Um that at um is frankly you know, not not 308 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: understood really well by non specialist but you know this 309 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: is a serious lawsuit. I mean, just to cut to 310 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: the chase, I think ultimately the PGA Tour would win 311 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 1: if this case goes you know, actually goes the distance. 312 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: But um, it's not a frivolous lawsuit by any means. 313 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: And and I could see another another result, and and 314 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 1: I was, can I just explain why why I think that? 315 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: And I think that's literally why you're here. That's true, 316 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: I know, I I but I just didn't want to 317 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: filibuster here. Um. I think it's it's useful to sometimes 318 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: think about anti trust in terms of sort of metaphors 319 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 1: to two things we can relate to. I mean, the 320 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: PGA Tours view of this is essentially, Um, we we are, 321 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: we are an employer and and we're like you know, 322 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 1: we have let's say we're we're an oil company and 323 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: we're we're excellent, and we we hire engineers, and our 324 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: engineers have contracts with us, and our engineer, one engineer 325 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: comes to us and says, well, you know, I'd also 326 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: like to be an engineer for Shell UM and the 327 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: excellent says, well, what do you mean you can't You 328 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: can't work for both companies. They like, you gotta pick one, 329 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: and and he says, no, no no, no, I really want 330 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:27,479 Speaker 1: to work for Shell And in fact, I'm gonna go 331 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: like help them drill a whale and okay, you do that, 332 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: but you're gonna get fired here, and then you get fired. 333 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: That's that's how the PA views their situation visa v. 334 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: The Lift Tour. Now, the Lift Tour's view is no, no, no, 335 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 1: it's not like, uh, two different companies. It's one company, 336 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: the p g A Tour that runs all of professional golf, 337 00:20:54,040 --> 00:21:00,120 Speaker 1: and we can't compete on a on a level playing 338 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: field because this is a monopoly situation that they have 339 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: monopolized professional golf and um UM so we have to 340 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:17,640 Speaker 1: be allowed to both participate in um our own tournaments 341 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: and the Lift Tour, but also participate in the pg 342 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: A Tour. And I think they're too good. Responses to 343 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: that um by the by the PGA Tour in their 344 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: court papers and in general, the first is we're not 345 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: a monopoly because there's the Lift Tour, and the Lift 346 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: Tour has gotten an enormous amount of money and attention 347 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: and players and um, so that's the key. So you 348 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: can't claim that you're this big success at the same 349 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: time as claiming you're this horrible victim of the big Man, 350 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: big bad PGA Tour and other argument that I think 351 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: is is a strong one on big card behalf of 352 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: the the p g A Tour is the biggest tournaments 353 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: in golf. The biggest issue, the four biggest events in 354 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: golf are not under our control. And at least so far, 355 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: the Lived Tour participants are allowed to play in the 356 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: four majors. You know, the U s g A runs 357 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: the the the US Open, the p g A runs 358 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: the p g A, UM Augustin National runs the Masters, 359 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: and the Royal and Ancient runs runs the British Open. 360 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: We don't We're not in charge of them. So how 361 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: can you say where a monopoly? And you know, Alan, 362 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: I was, I was reading your your scoop about what 363 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: went on at the you know, the Tiger, you know 364 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: session with with the top players, and you know, I 365 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: thought it fascinating of of sort of how they want 366 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: the PGA tour to respond uh to the live tour, 367 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 1: and you know, they create these new super tournaments with 368 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: no cuts, and and and what occurred to me in 369 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: reading your piece was the private market is working here. 370 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: That there there are these two competing entities and they 371 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: are essentially bidding for the services of the top players, 372 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: and they are trying to make the best deal. And 373 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: if I'm a judge looking at this, I'm gonna say, 374 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: why do I want to get involved in this? Let 375 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: let them, let them fight it out, I and and 376 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: not I I don't I there's just no need for 377 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: judicial intervention here because this is you know, the the 378 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: the the free market for top professional golfers and employers. 379 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: You know, they're not technically employers, their independent contractors, but 380 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: the people who run the business start competing for the 381 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: services of the top people, and let him fight it out. 382 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: And I don't you know, don't make a federal case 383 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: out of it. So that's my take. Well, that's fascinating. 384 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 1: Go ahead, Mike. Well, Jeff, if you uh, as a 385 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 1: student of politics and and and the love both, UH, 386 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: if you were hired for a week to be the 387 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: advisor to Jay Monhan, what would you tell him to 388 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: do right now legally and politically. Well, I mean it's 389 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 1: the one thing that I think he's done that that 390 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: is smart is he's let the players talk, not himself. 391 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: That the spokesman for the players have been the players. 392 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it's been Rory McElroy, it's been it's been 393 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: Justin Thomas, um, you know, and and and Tiger to 394 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: to to a certain extent. And and that I think 395 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: is is smart because you know, he's he's a bureaucrat. 396 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: He makes all you know, all of his money is 397 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: due to the skill of others. So I think that's 398 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: been it's been a smart I mean, I think he 399 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 1: gave he did one interview with Jim Nance, you know, 400 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 1: during a tournament. But as far as I'm aware, he 401 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: at least on the record publicly, he has said he 402 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:19,479 Speaker 1: has said very little. Um, you know, as for you know, 403 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: how you know, I mean, to be honest, I don't 404 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: really know enough about the golf business to know what 405 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: the most effective responses. I mean, reading Allen's piece, I thought, 406 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: you know, the way the way to become what they're 407 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: doing is, uh, they're sort of trying to become more 408 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: like the live tour um, you know, more guaranteed money, 409 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,239 Speaker 1: more you know, for for the top people, and you know, 410 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: some no cut tournaments, you know. I mean, it seems 411 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: like a reasonable response, but I don't want. One thing 412 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: that I thought was very weird, frankly in the proposal 413 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: that Allan talked about was this idea that the players 414 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: would somehow become owners of the tour, you know, through 415 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: private equity or something. And I just thought, you know, 416 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: one of the whole points of golf, in any professional 417 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 1: sport is that, you know, the top people turn over 418 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: over over years. So you know, like, should justin Leonard 419 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: be I mean, you know, the the you know, the 420 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: stars of yesteryear, should they be owning the golf tournament, 421 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: the PGA Tour. That struck me as a an idea 422 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: that I don't think made a lot of sense. But 423 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: again I don't I don't pretend to know enough about 424 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: the golf business to know, you know, what the what 425 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: the right answer is for the p G A tour. 426 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: I mean, the fundamental problem that the PGA Tour has 427 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: is that it's not competing against another business that has 428 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: to you know, show a return in a reasonable amount 429 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: of time. They're competing against the Saudis who have unlimited money. 430 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: And can you know, give Phil Mickelson two hundred million dollars. 431 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 1: I mean, the PGA tour, as rich as it is, 432 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: can't give people two hundred million dollars. They don't have 433 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: two hundred million dollars to give one golfer. And and 434 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,479 Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's a legitimate problem. And I don't 435 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: know what what the solution to that is. Well, that's 436 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 1: where the equity comes in. Is if you if you 437 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: have you know, I'm hearing people have continued to blow 438 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: up my phone since out story posted, So now I'm 439 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: hearing that the actual valuation they're working off is is 440 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: five billion dollars for for this this new enterprise. And 441 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 1: if you can I don't think to your point, you know, 442 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: poor Justin Learn out here catching trays. But you're right, 443 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: I mean you don't. You don't want to reward too 444 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: many guys because they're gonna they're gonna get replaced. But 445 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 1: I think, you know, Tiger Rory, maybe Justin Thomas, that 446 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: they've been carrying the water for the tour, and if 447 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: you if you can't compensate them for staying and for 448 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: all that they've done all they will do. I think 449 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: that the equity becomes the money. They don't have the 450 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: Sautie's money, but the equity is is valuable. And you know, 451 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 1: one of the things that I love about golf as 452 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: a as a fan is, you know, Tiger Woods or 453 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 1: a Monday qualifier. You know, when they show up for 454 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: their tea time on Thursday, they may walk away with nothing. 455 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: And and that's not true in any other sport. And 456 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: I think, and as I understand it from what I've 457 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: been reading, that was a big point that Greg Norman 458 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 1: was making as he was making the rounds. Is you know, 459 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: if you are a you know, uh, mid level basketball player, 460 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: you know you're making five, six, seven million dollars a year, 461 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: and if you get hurt in the second game, you're 462 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: still gonna get the money for the rest of the year. 463 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: And and it's all guaranteed money, and um, you know, 464 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: other than endorsements, there's no guaranteed money and golf. And 465 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: you know, I can see why when the golfers look 466 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: at their you know, elite athlete peer group and they think, well, 467 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: why the hell shouldn't I get, you know, guaranteed money, 468 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: And you know, the Saudis are offering. You know, I 469 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: you know is Pat Pere is going to make a 470 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: hell of a lot of money anymore on the PGA tour. 471 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: You know, Kevin na is a you know it is 472 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: a good sort of mid level player who wins every 473 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: once in a while. But if he can get tent, 474 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what the numbers are, but 475 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: if you can get ten million dollars from the Saudis, 476 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like a pretty easy call for them. Yeah, 477 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: oh no, I mean all that you say is true. 478 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: I want to go back to the antitrust lawsuit because 479 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: the way you break it down, it sounds like liv 480 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: has has no chance. But I guess the count of 481 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: argument is it's not that they work for Excellent and 482 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: they want to work for Shell. It's that they don't 483 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: work for either company. They're they're essentially private contractors, and 484 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: they want to be able to dabble with both and 485 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: go wherever the better deal is. Just like you know, 486 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: if if I'm if I'm looking for a plumber, I'm 487 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: gonna call a couple of guys and I'm gonna tell 488 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: whoever gets a better deal, I'm gonna go with that. Person. 489 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: You know, I think that's where the notion that they're 490 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: not employees to the tour, and golfers have have always 491 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: been able to go from tour to tour. You play 492 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: some in Europe, you play some of the US, you 493 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: might go down to Australia and South Africa, and like 494 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: Roy mclroy has done that. You know, some of the 495 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: other Live guys who are more international players, like an 496 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: Ian Poulter, like they bounced from tour to tour throughout 497 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: their careers and so they would like to continue doing 498 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: that with Lived being one of those tours. And so 499 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: that's where I think the counter argument is, like this 500 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: already existing golf. Why why is it suddenly you were 501 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: banned and you're turning into a closed shop. Well that's 502 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: I mean that that and that's that is not that 503 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: is not about a bad argumentum Again, what the PGA 504 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: Tour will say is, you know we we yes, we 505 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: do allow under certain limited circumstances to play a certain 506 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: number of events um in in other in other tours. 507 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: But that's in our discretion and we are not obliged 508 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: to destroy ourselves to to give um, you know, an 509 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: opportunity to play a directly competing tour. I mean, yes, 510 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: you can play in what's I guess called the DP 511 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: Tour now, the European Tour, the Asian Tour, uh if 512 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: you want, but they're they're not directly competitive with the 513 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: PGA Tour. We are not oblige the PGA Tour to 514 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: essentially subsidize our competitors. And um, but you know your 515 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: point is is not a you know that that that's 516 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: not that's not a frivolous argument on on the part 517 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: of the lift golfers, you know, and and also um, 518 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: you know, just to to argue with myself before the 519 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: four major tournaments. You know, one of the ways you 520 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: you main ways you qualify for the for the four 521 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: majors is through the p g A Tour. So um, 522 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: you know that's that's an argument that that the lived 523 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: the Lived Tour will make I mean as that that's 524 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: why you know these are not, um, you know, the 525 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: frivolous arguments. You know what what it seems to me, 526 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you tell me because you're you're much more 527 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: intimately involved with this is what Norman and um, you know, 528 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: the saudiast seem to want to do or I don't know, 529 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: maybe do you tell me it's sort of like what 530 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: happened with the A f L in the NFL or 531 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: the A B A and the NBA. Is that, you know, 532 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: this competing tour starts up, competing league starts up, and 533 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: ultimately the the the old established league says well, all right, 534 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: let's all get together and um, will will I mean, 535 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: is that the goal here? Well? I think I don't 536 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: know if that's anyone's goal, but it's it's definitely a 537 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: possibility as a compromise. I mean, we'll we'll find out. 538 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: It seems like the PGA Tour and its stars would 539 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: like to to sort of do an end around, an 540 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: end around and take the Live concept, make it their 541 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: own and not have to get involved with Greg Norman, 542 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: who some of them don't hold in high esteem, and 543 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: not get involved with the Saudis, which of course is 544 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 1: a very complicating factor on a lot of levels. Um, 545 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,959 Speaker 1: But ultimately, you know, I think I think if Live 546 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: was given the opportunity, they would love to have a 547 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: seat at the table, and they might they would be 548 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: willing to compromise. I think the tour is a little 549 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: more dug in its position, but um, you know that's 550 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: what all these secret meetings are about is can can 551 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: the players find their own path to making the tour 552 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: more attractive, more profitable for them um, more guaranteed money 553 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: um and and sort of by the loyalty of its 554 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: stars because uh, you know it's I think that that's 555 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: really the fundamental issue here is is how can the 556 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: PG you Tour find a compromise? Can they do it 557 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: without the Saudis? If the answer is yes, then they will. 558 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: But if if they can't make that work, then I think, 559 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: you know, a compromise becomes more attractive. Yeah, I mean 560 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: the whole Saudi aspect of this. I mean I I 561 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: I mean I I am highly familiar with the human 562 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: rights record of the Saudis, but but the idea of 563 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: the PG eight Tour as the human rights guardians of 564 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: the world, you know, give me a fucking break. I mean, 565 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: you know, this is a this is a tour that 566 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: has a big operation in China. They they you know, 567 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: there's a tournament in Saudi Arabia every year that you 568 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: know a lot of p G A tour plays and 569 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: a player. I mean, look, I just you know, I 570 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: can understand why individual golfers don't want to be affiliated 571 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: with the Saudi regime. But the idea that the reason 572 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: the PG eight tour is uh objecting to the Lived 573 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: tour is because of human rights, I don't. I don't 574 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,439 Speaker 1: think so. I mean, you know, I think that's that's 575 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: kind of a joke. Jeff is someone who has written 576 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: a lot about you have a lot about power dynamics 577 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: and different situations in the court in politics, Patty hurts 578 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 1: lots of different situations. Um. Greg Norman's starting point is, well, 579 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: I came to you Jay Monahan, and I came to 580 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: you Fred Ridley, and you wouldn't even take my my call. 581 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: And now that it seems that we we seem to 582 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: have the upper hand with this Outias and Live Golf 583 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: seem to have the upper hand, and you're going to 584 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 1: come back to us with something. Um, But my question 585 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: is is it the way power politics play out? Is 586 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: it may be too late for a compromise. Do the 587 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: Outiaes and and live in Greg Norman, do they actually 588 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: have the upper hand now and there's really nowhere to 589 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: go for a compromise. Well, you know what I mean. 590 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:54,439 Speaker 1: I think the answer maybe that we have to see 591 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: how this plays out for for a while. Um. You know, 592 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: one of one of the things, um, that that I 593 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: find about the Live Tour is that the press conferences 594 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: of the players are more interesting than the golf tournaments. 595 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I am unlike you guys. I mean, 596 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: I am like a I am not a pro golf journalist. 597 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: I am a pro golf fan. And I can tell 598 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,839 Speaker 1: you a hundred that I do not give a ship 599 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: who wins a Lift Tour event. I don't care about 600 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: those tournaments. I think the team concept, you know, the 601 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,800 Speaker 1: fireballs or whatever the hell they're called, I think it's 602 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: it's ridiculous. I don't and it may be and they 603 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 1: don't have a TV contract so you have to watch 604 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: it on YouTube or something. I mean, I don't know. 605 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: I haven't watched any of it. So I mean, it 606 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: may be that the Lift Tour just sort of doesn't 607 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: take off, And it may be that no one goes 608 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,399 Speaker 1: to their tournaments and no one watches, and no one 609 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: cares other than the players who make four million dollars 610 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,800 Speaker 1: for winning the tournaments, and and which which could change 611 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: the power dynamics. On the other hand, you know, if 612 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: you know, you know, it looks like they're gonna get 613 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 1: camp Smith, who is, like, you know, arguably the best 614 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: golfer in the world right now. Um, you know Brooks kapta, Um, 615 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't have to tell you. You know, 616 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: Nicholson I think is sort of weirdly irrelevant at this 617 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 1: point because he's so you know, he's so over the 618 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 1: hill and thanks to you Alan having all sorts of 619 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:41,800 Speaker 1: mental problems. Um. It's one might say the mental problems 620 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,799 Speaker 1: pushed Bill to call Alan in the first place, confusing 621 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: Alan's role as writer with that a therapist. But but 622 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: but in any case, I mean, just my point is, 623 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: it seems to me that there's the standoff now, but 624 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:09,359 Speaker 1: events will will intervene and uh like for examply mean, 625 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 1: one thing that's interesting is, you know, we've got the 626 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: President's Cup coming up, which has always seemed to me 627 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: is sort of like, you know, the poor man's ryder cup. 628 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: I don't really care much what happens in the President's Cup, 629 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: and I think most people. But but it's going to 630 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:28,879 Speaker 1: be a diminished field because of live you know, will 631 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:33,720 Speaker 1: that hurt um will that will that have an effect 632 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: on the whole dynamic? I don't know, what do you 633 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: what do you think? Yeah, for sure. I mean that 634 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: week will show we'll throw into sharp relief the damage 635 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: that lives done because you're not gonna have Dustin Johnson 636 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: just went five and note with the Ryder Cup and 637 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 1: what was the hero at Whistling Straits and uh, it 638 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: seems like a certainty you won't have Cam Smith who 639 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 1: was going to be the big dog on the international team. 640 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: And you know Bryson Deshambo who is a lightning rod 641 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: but it was certainly fun to watch at the Ryder 642 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: Cup and is built for match play. Um, just say 643 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:10,760 Speaker 1: nothing of Patrick Reed. Patrick Reed, formerly known as Captain America. Uh, 644 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: you know Kepta hasn't been playing well, but he's he's 645 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: still he's he's a he's kind of built for match play. 646 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: So both teams are diminished. You know, their biggest star 647 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: in Latin America ABE answer is not going to be there. 648 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: Um we woose ties in the most popular players in golf, 649 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,799 Speaker 1: who's you know, kind of flying the flag of South 650 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,840 Speaker 1: Africa golfing nations. So yeah, that that week is going 651 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: to be eerie because it's gonna be about who's not 652 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: there as much as who is. So that that will 653 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,240 Speaker 1: be a testament to what you're saying earlier of live strength, 654 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: and it does undercut their case that the Tours of 655 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,359 Speaker 1: Monopoly whe they've siphoned off all these players. Well, and 656 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,359 Speaker 1: and here's a here's a question for you. Um, I mean, 657 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to be asking questions rather than answering them, 658 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: but you know, it seems to me the one big 659 00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,720 Speaker 1: factor about whether the Lift Tour uh of or dies 660 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,799 Speaker 1: is whether they can get a TV contract in the 661 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 1: United States, because if they're really only on YouTube, I 662 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: don't really see them, you know, have any sort of 663 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:20,759 Speaker 1: have any real sustaining power. Um, obviously, I guess Foxes 664 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: is the obvious possibility. Do you think they'll get a 665 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: TV contract? Well, I will say you might possibly be 666 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: dating yourself, because YouTube is a second and most visited 667 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: website there is, and you know, the number of people 668 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,839 Speaker 1: who spend countless hours on YouTube is substantial. So I 669 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: think it's is better than than I mean, us old 670 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: folks might give it credit for. But um, yeah, I 671 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 1: mean definitely, being on network TV is a is a 672 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: sign that you've arrived, and if you're not on TV, 673 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,800 Speaker 1: you don't exist in the imagination of a lot of fans. 674 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:54,840 Speaker 1: So I agree with what you're saying. Well, no, but 675 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: I mean the point isn't so much about Yeah, I mean, 676 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: I I am dating myself. I'm happy to acknowledge that. 677 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,959 Speaker 1: But but YouTube doesn't pay them anything. I mean, there's 678 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: no and and and you know the other thing that 679 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 1: that's worth thinking about in all of this is, you know, 680 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 1: and this guy, this comes out of my my, you know, 681 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 1: Maggie and you guys you know, from Sports Illustrated alums. No, 682 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,840 Speaker 1: this is that you know, people say, oh, well, you know, 683 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: these rich people, they'll just buy a prestige product and 684 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 1: they'll keep subsidizing it forever. Yeah. Maybe, and maybe you 685 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,279 Speaker 1: know what this so Saudi guy, this guy who's you know, 686 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: the big golf fish and I forgot his name, but 687 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: the guy who's you know, Norman's sugar daddy, his excellency. Yeah, 688 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 1: what happens if he catches a coal? What happens if 689 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,800 Speaker 1: he says, you know, this isn't working out so well, 690 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,640 Speaker 1: or or his you know, NBS says, you know, we 691 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,879 Speaker 1: don't we're we're we're we're sick of this. I mean, 692 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 1: it's not stay. You know, things that are not profit 693 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: making in American life are not necessarily sustainable and if 694 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:12,840 Speaker 1: the Saudis are losing you know, literally billions of dollars 695 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: on golf, like at some point and maybe not too 696 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:18,839 Speaker 1: long from now, and say like why are we doing this? 697 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 1: What do we care? I mean, I just think that's 698 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 1: a possibility worth considering. I agree, Michael. Do you think 699 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,840 Speaker 1: do you think there's a TV contract out there for 700 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 1: live golf? I don't see it. I mean, now, Alan, 701 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,400 Speaker 1: you've been to events and I haven't, but you know, 702 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 1: three rounds, it's not the shotguns start, but the shotgun finished. 703 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:39,799 Speaker 1: I don't see how you can do that on TV. 704 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 1: You don't have that building to a climax like you have, 705 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, the fourth quarter of a football game or 706 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,520 Speaker 1: the ninth inning of a baseball game. You know what 707 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: I just you know, just what you just said. I mean, 708 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: maybe I'm just ignorant, but I recognized the shotguns start, 709 00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:02,279 Speaker 1: but a shotgun finish is terrible for TV. What they 710 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,280 Speaker 1: do is that for the for the they send the leaders. 711 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: So the leaders go off of one, the nearest pursuers 712 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: go off of two. You know, so it is it 713 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 1: is based on scores. So the last round where quite 714 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: possibly the eighteenth hole could be the deciding hole. But 715 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,399 Speaker 1: there's definitely someone could start an hour and a half 716 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: ahead of the leaders and shoot just sixty two and 717 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 1: win the tournament by finishing on number thirteen. I mean 718 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 1: that you know that that's well within the real possibility 719 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: and that scenarios sort of played out already out there. So, 720 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,359 Speaker 1: um it is. It is messy, and we all know 721 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 1: the golf courses are sequence in a certain way. There's 722 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: a rhythm, there's a charm, and they're designed. You know, 723 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: if imagine a shot can't start an augusta National right 724 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,239 Speaker 1: like there's there's there's a whole ebb and flow or 725 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 1: pebble beach. You know, it's a gentle beginning and then 726 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,359 Speaker 1: you get killed in the middle. Then you catch your 727 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: breath and you finished by the ocean, like you know, 728 00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,400 Speaker 1: the great courses. It's like a symphony. And it definitely 729 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 1: it gets just stroid when when you start going off 730 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,480 Speaker 1: the you know, the fourth T or the seventh T 731 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 1: or the nineties. So it's, um it is. It is problematic. 732 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 1: But on the flip side, it just feels like live 733 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 1: sports is more and more valuable as a property because 734 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,360 Speaker 1: in this this fragmented landscape of of media. It's the 735 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: one thing that people all watch at the same time. 736 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 1: You can't skip the ads, and um, it's it's appointment 737 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,799 Speaker 1: viewing that it's really the last appointment viewing there is. 738 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,799 Speaker 1: So I mean, you know you mentioned Fox, Jeffrey. I 739 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 1: think that's that's a possibility. Um, it could be, it's not. 740 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,719 Speaker 1: It could be just a streaming deal. But it goes 741 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,400 Speaker 1: from from YouTube where they're not making money, to an 742 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,200 Speaker 1: Apple TV, which could pay them a lot. And uh, 743 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 1: you know these streaming services are all desperate for content. 744 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 1: Uh so, uh, you know Amazon has gone big into 745 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,319 Speaker 1: original content and into the sports world. And you know, 746 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: if you if you have Apple and you have Amazon 747 00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,399 Speaker 1: come to the table all of a sudden, the price 748 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: could go up pretty quick and they could do something 749 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 1: close to a big deal that would edge them in 750 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: the direction of profitability. So I think the streaming deal 751 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: will get better. I don't know if they'll be on 752 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,800 Speaker 1: TV or not, but it's it's obviously a fundamental question 753 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,239 Speaker 1: for the future of live jeff Can you imagine a 754 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: scenario where you may not know the chef and and 755 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,400 Speaker 1: you follow golf closely. It's impressive how much you do 756 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,439 Speaker 1: know about it. But you may not know this that 757 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 1: the awarding of UM world ranking points is done by 758 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,360 Speaker 1: a committee and the PGA Tour sits on that committee, 759 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,200 Speaker 1: so that so it has a vote in deciding whether 760 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,279 Speaker 1: live golf events will get World Ranking points or not, 761 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: which of course is critical to the feeding of the 762 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 1: major tournaments as well. Um, could you imagine a lawsuit 763 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,600 Speaker 1: arising by which the PGA Tour has challenged over whether 764 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 1: or alan correct me if this has already come up, 765 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 1: and I don't know it, I don't believe it has, 766 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 1: but correct me if if if it has, could you 767 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,760 Speaker 1: imagine a lawsuit where the PGA Tour is successfully challenge 768 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 1: on the DOA that No, you can't be the judge 769 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,440 Speaker 1: and jury in this decision of who gets points and 770 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: who doesn't. Yes, I mean, I I think that's Um, 771 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: that's that's part of them. I'm trying to remember from 772 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,799 Speaker 1: from reading the complaint whether the world golf rankings are 773 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:26,120 Speaker 1: mentioned in there, But um, it is a pretty good 774 00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:30,840 Speaker 1: I mean, especially since the world golf rankings are a 775 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 1: big factor and who gets into the big fourt you know, 776 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:38,880 Speaker 1: the majors. Um, you know that that that is an 777 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,400 Speaker 1: argument against the p G eight saying, you know, we 778 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: don't even run the majors. You know, they they obviously 779 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,719 Speaker 1: have a voice. Um, you know, whether it's you know too, 780 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,399 Speaker 1: the connection is to attenuated that they are just one 781 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: voice among many. That's something that would obviously be dispute 782 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,840 Speaker 1: did in litigation. But you know that that that shows 783 00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:09,480 Speaker 1: that they are not just you know, another um employers 784 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,480 Speaker 1: that they have. They have a considerable amount of power 785 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:18,480 Speaker 1: over the professional game of golf around the world. Yeah, 786 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,480 Speaker 1: at your point, Michael, I think it's clear that that 787 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,719 Speaker 1: j Montamial and any PGS representative will have to sit 788 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,279 Speaker 1: out or recuse themselves from any of these discussions. But 789 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 1: even so, there's you know, there's there's a lot of 790 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,080 Speaker 1: people on the board. But it does get to the 791 00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 1: question where the tour has has such a cohesive relationship 792 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,720 Speaker 1: with the PGA of America, with the RNA, with Augusta National, 793 00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:43,520 Speaker 1: and they all sit on the board of the world ranking. 794 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,920 Speaker 1: So uh, the question becomes is the tour pressuring them 795 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,920 Speaker 1: behind the scenes? Um? What other agreements have been in place, 796 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,280 Speaker 1: handshake or not? What are the you know, for instance, 797 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,560 Speaker 1: I mean the PGA Tour did Augusta National a huge 798 00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:00,440 Speaker 1: solid for decades when they had a rule on books 799 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,319 Speaker 1: that you had to have a device diverse membership to 800 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,640 Speaker 1: host a pg Tour event, and they look the other way. 801 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,759 Speaker 1: So Augusta National and the Masters could become official money 802 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,040 Speaker 1: and count as official win and so there's there's always 803 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,880 Speaker 1: some quid pro quo on these things. And you know 804 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,239 Speaker 1: that that's where if if lives deniable ranking points, you 805 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,239 Speaker 1: could see a lawsuit saying well, this this was the 806 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,880 Speaker 1: fix was in. This was another monopolistic situation where the 807 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,560 Speaker 1: tour exerted his influence and we didn't get a fair 808 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,040 Speaker 1: affair shake. So but but I guess you know, I'm 809 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:36,359 Speaker 1: just thinking thinking this through as you are, um, you know, 810 00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:42,120 Speaker 1: describing all these issues. You know, oftentimes when when you 811 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,719 Speaker 1: have a dispute between parties, there is a fairly obvious 812 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:51,040 Speaker 1: compromise solution. I mean usually it's like the exchange of money. 813 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,160 Speaker 1: You know, you sue for a million dollars, so we'll 814 00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,680 Speaker 1: settle for hundred thousand or five hundred thousand. At least 815 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 1: as far as I'm aware, it's not an obvious compromise 816 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:09,279 Speaker 1: here between Live and the PGA Tour. I mean, is there, Well, 817 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,000 Speaker 1: we we've talked about this in some other forums. I mean, 818 00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,200 Speaker 1: one way would be to take these live events and 819 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,560 Speaker 1: absorb them into the tour schedule, and so maybe you 820 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,120 Speaker 1: play them in the fall, or maybe you sprinkle them 821 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,640 Speaker 1: throughout the year. And for a lot of players, that 822 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,000 Speaker 1: would be a dream scenario. You keep your PGA Tour card, 823 00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,320 Speaker 1: you get to cherry pick these these huge money live events. 824 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,080 Speaker 1: For the live folks, they could get a slice the 825 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,920 Speaker 1: TV contract, and more than that, they would get what 826 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,560 Speaker 1: they create, which is legitimacy and and being you know, 827 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:44,400 Speaker 1: welcomed into the halls of power by the Western world. So, um, 828 00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,279 Speaker 1: it gets very complex. There's a lot of questions have 829 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,799 Speaker 1: to be answered. But that if you're just if you're 830 00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,839 Speaker 1: just spit bawling like that could be the compromise and 831 00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,040 Speaker 1: the tour gets to keep its stars, they get to 832 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:59,640 Speaker 1: bring back their former stars. Um, everyone can declare victory 833 00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:03,560 Speaker 1: on s level, but it's it's message. So that's basically 834 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,839 Speaker 1: like a merger. I mean, if the schedules are are 835 00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:12,000 Speaker 1: coordinated and the players can go back and forth. I mean, 836 00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:16,600 Speaker 1: isn't that essentially I mean, I guess the administration of 837 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:21,680 Speaker 1: the different tournaments, but it would be like like it's 838 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:27,120 Speaker 1: it's just one one outlet, no is that? Yeah? And 839 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:28,960 Speaker 1: and the PGA Tour, I mean they did the strategic 840 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,680 Speaker 1: alliance with the European Tour and then it allows players 841 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,360 Speaker 1: on each tour access to the tournaments and they acknowledge 842 00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:36,919 Speaker 1: each other in different ways, and they share the money 843 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,920 Speaker 1: and they share the social media resources and so there 844 00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,400 Speaker 1: there's a blueprint for it already they and they just 845 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,719 Speaker 1: did it so um and if you get live, you're 846 00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,840 Speaker 1: also getting the Asian Tour because they're now linked. So 847 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,600 Speaker 1: on some level you could you could unify the entire 848 00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,319 Speaker 1: sport and come up with some global schedule that made 849 00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,840 Speaker 1: a lot of sense. And you know, one of the 850 00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:00,960 Speaker 1: key points from this meeting that Tiger just held was 851 00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,279 Speaker 1: this this bedrock belief that we've got to get the 852 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:07,000 Speaker 1: top players together more often. That's where the juices, that's 853 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,480 Speaker 1: where the TV ratings are. It's good for the sports, 854 00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,080 Speaker 1: good for all of us, and so you know, LIV 855 00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,520 Speaker 1: could help accomplish that. Now, again it's there's a lot 856 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:16,399 Speaker 1: of there's a lot of things you'd have to sort through. 857 00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,640 Speaker 1: But is that that would be the compromise To answer 858 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:23,799 Speaker 1: your question? I love I love in the all the 859 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,120 Speaker 1: ridiculous arguments that the live tour makes. My favorite is 860 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,080 Speaker 1: like it's too much travel. I can't I I the 861 00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:33,239 Speaker 1: PGA tour is too much travel. Like Matthew Wolf, he's 862 00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,080 Speaker 1: twenty three years old. He's like he misses his dog. 863 00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,440 Speaker 1: He's in and he's like, you can't travel more than fourteen. 864 00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:42,480 Speaker 1: It's like it's like what a heartship for a fourteen 865 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:44,600 Speaker 1: you know, twenty three year old to have to travel 866 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:47,839 Speaker 1: like sixteen weeks a year, It's like it's like in 867 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,920 Speaker 1: human it's like such a bullshit. I mean, I you know, 868 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,080 Speaker 1: why don't they just I mean, I guess it wasn't 869 00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:57,719 Speaker 1: Pat Paris, Who's who said it's like, yeah, like they 870 00:51:57,719 --> 00:51:59,480 Speaker 1: gave me a lot of money. That's where I went. 871 00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,200 Speaker 1: I mean, isn't that's really what this is all about? Right? 872 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,680 Speaker 1: I mean, of course, of course, but there are some 873 00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,200 Speaker 1: some Shakespearean things at work here, you know, some of 874 00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:14,759 Speaker 1: these themes of of greed and vengeance and legacy, and 875 00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:17,960 Speaker 1: you know it's playing on a few different levels. But 876 00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:20,879 Speaker 1: you know, money is certainly driving so much of this, 877 00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,440 Speaker 1: as it often does. But well, and and and I 878 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,839 Speaker 1: guess your point is, I mean they just a lot 879 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:29,960 Speaker 1: of these people at all levels of the of of 880 00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:36,480 Speaker 1: professional golf just despise Greg Norman and that they don't 881 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,080 Speaker 1: want him to win. And that seems to be, as 882 00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,600 Speaker 1: you say, sort of one of the Shakespearean aspects of 883 00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:45,719 Speaker 1: all this, that that you know, if this were some 884 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,440 Speaker 1: anonymous private equity guy, maybe they'd make a deal, but 885 00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:53,440 Speaker 1: they don't want to make a deal with Greg Norman. Right. Uh, 886 00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,680 Speaker 1: that's very well said, Jeff. I think you're really hit 887 00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:00,080 Speaker 1: upon the most important question. You know, what could be 888 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,680 Speaker 1: a path to compromise. And we had Jeff Ogilvie Allen 889 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:04,920 Speaker 1: I did, or we were together with Jeff Ogilvie, we 890 00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,000 Speaker 1: couldgo and he talked a lot about compromise and really 891 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,520 Speaker 1: opened up people's eyes, that opened a mindset idea that 892 00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,000 Speaker 1: there could be. But this is a very big button, 893 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,560 Speaker 1: this situation. We don't know what the Saudis want here. 894 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,799 Speaker 1: If the goal here is really a geminy of all 895 00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:26,359 Speaker 1: of golf, and here's this great capitalist tool golf that 896 00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,920 Speaker 1: America has you know, banked for for a hundred years now, 897 00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:31,919 Speaker 1: done so well with it, and we're going to take 898 00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,759 Speaker 1: it over, which I believe is their goal. But I 899 00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:36,480 Speaker 1: don't know that at all, but that that would be 900 00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:40,040 Speaker 1: a guess. Uh, then there really isn't a path. Uh. 901 00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,800 Speaker 1: Then it's sort of you know, like almost everything in 902 00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:45,280 Speaker 1: life can be answered by, you know, trying to apply 903 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:49,000 Speaker 1: the logic of the Godfather to whatever is going on 904 00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:51,440 Speaker 1: in the real world. Well, the answer usually is that 905 00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,239 Speaker 1: the guns come out and people get killed and one 906 00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:55,920 Speaker 1: guy's left standing and I think it's gonna be MBS 907 00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,479 Speaker 1: because he's got the most ammunition. And Jay mon Hans 908 00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:00,800 Speaker 1: already admited to that. You know, people say, oh, Monahan 909 00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:05,800 Speaker 1: misplayed his cards. There were no cards to play because 910 00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,840 Speaker 1: professional golfers, by their very nature, are drawn to money. 911 00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,239 Speaker 1: They don't care about Randall Shamblee going on by name 912 00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,560 Speaker 1: and Lynch and you and the three of us going 913 00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,440 Speaker 1: about human rights abuses. They want to get paid and 914 00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:21,200 Speaker 1: these guys are paying and they're gonna go no. I mean, 915 00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:27,080 Speaker 1: the the the the I mean, you know, I think 916 00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,879 Speaker 1: you know what you're saying about Monahan is is so right. 917 00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:32,680 Speaker 1: It's like, well, why don't you pay Phil Nicholson two 918 00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,600 Speaker 1: million dollars? He doesn't have that kind of money. And 919 00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:40,160 Speaker 1: if the players are gonna go to who will pay 920 00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,760 Speaker 1: the most, which, as you say, is what they generally do. 921 00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:47,759 Speaker 1: That's what they're gonna do well. And but this is 922 00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,440 Speaker 1: where we're talking about My Monahan didn't have cards to play, 923 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,240 Speaker 1: but Tigers coming in with a new deck of cards. 924 00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,760 Speaker 1: And this this is where this this reshaped tour becomes interesting. 925 00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,680 Speaker 1: If they privatize is and they go they bring in 926 00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:04,759 Speaker 1: private equity money, and they bring in investors, they could 927 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:08,240 Speaker 1: very quickly have a war chest of five or seven 928 00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:11,480 Speaker 1: or ten billion dollars and that that's not quite sauty, bunny, 929 00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:15,040 Speaker 1: but it's now you haven't brought a knife to a gunfight, 930 00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:17,000 Speaker 1: you know, to use your analogy, Mike, which probably in 931 00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:21,359 Speaker 1: appropriate given this whole geopolitical, uh backdrop to this. But 932 00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:25,279 Speaker 1: now they've got some ammunition. And are they outgunned to 933 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,680 Speaker 1: extend the metaphor, yes, but at least at least they're 934 00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,960 Speaker 1: you know, they're shooting back. And so um, I think 935 00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:35,680 Speaker 1: it's what happened in Delaware with Tiger jetting. In the 936 00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:39,520 Speaker 1: second such meeting, they had one in adair manner and uh, 937 00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:41,640 Speaker 1: there was only one person in the room who wasn't 938 00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,719 Speaker 1: a golfer. It was it was a big swinging Dick 939 00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,000 Speaker 1: in the private equity world. That's an industry term. I 940 00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:49,480 Speaker 1: didn't make that up um And he was there as 941 00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:51,880 Speaker 1: an advisor, and I've been told that he met with 942 00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:54,279 Speaker 1: Tiger and Rory for two hours before that meeting to 943 00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:58,080 Speaker 1: really hash this plan out in more detail. And so 944 00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:01,440 Speaker 1: this is how the tour fight is by bringing in 945 00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,920 Speaker 1: this outside money. Can I just I mean, I know 946 00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,080 Speaker 1: you guys need to go, and I probably should go, 947 00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:08,600 Speaker 1: but I let me put on my golf fan hat 948 00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,000 Speaker 1: for a while. I mean, just, you know, independent of 949 00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:15,120 Speaker 1: all this, which is who needs this fight? I mean 950 00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:17,880 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, one of the things in the 951 00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:21,360 Speaker 1: world that I thought was not broken was the p 952 00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:23,880 Speaker 1: G A Tour. I mean, as a golf fan, I 953 00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:25,960 Speaker 1: didn't give a lot of thought to the p G 954 00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:29,560 Speaker 1: A Tour. But you know, on I I love my 955 00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,960 Speaker 1: PGA tour dot Com webs you know, the website, and 956 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:37,640 Speaker 1: I'm always checking the you know, the leaderboards, and you know, 957 00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,680 Speaker 1: I know that there's the West Coast Swing and then 958 00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:44,680 Speaker 1: there's the Florida Swing, and then there's the Masters. And 959 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,000 Speaker 1: I was happy with that. I didn't I didn't like 960 00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:53,120 Speaker 1: need a a another tour, and and I didn't need 961 00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:59,000 Speaker 1: more tournaments um and team play and fifty four hold tournaments. 962 00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:01,719 Speaker 1: I mean, I just think, I mean, I again, I 963 00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:04,359 Speaker 1: don't I haven't spoken to other golf fans about this, 964 00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,000 Speaker 1: but when I look at these, you know, when I 965 00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:10,080 Speaker 1: you know, obviously I've paid a lot of attention to 966 00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:12,279 Speaker 1: the live tour stuff. You know, I think it's a 967 00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,680 Speaker 1: fan of like, who needs this? It was not broken 968 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,520 Speaker 1: in the first place. Now obviously you you you know, 969 00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:22,280 Speaker 1: money changes everything, as they say, But I just find 970 00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:28,160 Speaker 1: it sort of the whole thing kind of unnecessary and 971 00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:34,640 Speaker 1: irritating as a fan. Go ahead of Michael Well, I mean, 972 00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:37,920 Speaker 1: golf for a long time, the PHA Tour, you know, 973 00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:40,080 Speaker 1: I think Al and I would both very much agree this. 974 00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,640 Speaker 1: It got boring, It got arrogant. We had all the 975 00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,520 Speaker 1: cards we're gonna you know, we're dictating to the world 976 00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:49,480 Speaker 1: how this whole thing plays out. The President's Cup, you know, 977 00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:53,800 Speaker 1: the international team is dictated, the rules by which their 978 00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,400 Speaker 1: team is even assembled is dictated by the PHA Tour. 979 00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:59,920 Speaker 1: Tim Fincher became a member of Augusta National almost in 980 00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:03,040 Speaker 1: me to leap on retirement. There's a lot not to like, 981 00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:05,800 Speaker 1: and there's a lot to like Jordan's speech and what 982 00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:08,000 Speaker 1: you know, the way camp Smith plays golf, there's a 983 00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:11,200 Speaker 1: lot to liken the three officer drawn drawn to golf 984 00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,880 Speaker 1: and golfs like. But this is a long winded preamble 985 00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:17,080 Speaker 1: of the following. Jeff, what you described as the American 986 00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,600 Speaker 1: golf fans point of view, and what Greg Dorman would 987 00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:22,840 Speaker 1: be here to tell you is that he grew up 988 00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,040 Speaker 1: in Australia, he played the Australian Tour, he played the 989 00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:30,200 Speaker 1: European played the American Tour, and it's not fair to 990 00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,000 Speaker 1: the rest of the world that everyone's got to come 991 00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:35,560 Speaker 1: to the United States to play the game's best tour, 992 00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:37,720 Speaker 1: just like everybody's got to come to the NBA to 993 00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:43,000 Speaker 1: play the best basketball. Um. But I think I would argue, maybe, Jeff, 994 00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:46,080 Speaker 1: you would two, golf works well in a regional system 995 00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:48,600 Speaker 1: of European Tour, Nation Tour, an American Tour, and it 996 00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,640 Speaker 1: has worked well, and we don't need all this, I 997 00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:54,680 Speaker 1: think would be my shorthand except for this OUTI see, 998 00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:58,680 Speaker 1: my opinion, the capitalist tool that is the pro golf 999 00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,560 Speaker 1: tour and golf period and it's like, yeah, let's get 1000 00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,960 Speaker 1: let's get more of that, or let's own that. I 1001 00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:08,040 Speaker 1: think you said it perfectly, Jeff. I mean, nobody really 1002 00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:13,000 Speaker 1: wanted this, but it's here and it can and there. 1003 00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,960 Speaker 1: It comes with so many interesting questions, some of which 1004 00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:20,240 Speaker 1: you've helped us. And one guy, one guy wanted it out, Yeah, Greg, Yeah, 1005 00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:22,360 Speaker 1: and he, I mean he's you know, hats wanted it 1006 00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:26,360 Speaker 1: for twenty five years, right, and to his credit, he's 1007 00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:29,560 Speaker 1: never given up on it and he's gotten it much 1008 00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:32,400 Speaker 1: much farther than anybody would have gone credit for for doing. 1009 00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,040 Speaker 1: I agree, and I think you know, Johnygree, Phil Cholson 1010 00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:38,280 Speaker 1: wanted it us. There's been other agents of change, you know, 1011 00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:40,600 Speaker 1: working in the background here. So some people wanted the 1012 00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:44,080 Speaker 1: average fan didn't. But it's been you know, foisted upon 1013 00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:47,080 Speaker 1: us and we're trying to make sense of it. Also, Jeff, 1014 00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,960 Speaker 1: thank you so much for your your insight, um in 1015 00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:53,280 Speaker 1: guiding us through the legal mind fields. And you're also 1016 00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,480 Speaker 1: a great representative just of a serious fan because Michael 1017 00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:57,880 Speaker 1: and I are so in the weeds. Nice to talk 1018 00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:00,960 Speaker 1: to someone who follows it, but also as questions and 1019 01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:04,120 Speaker 1: so that was that was edifying. Let me tell you, 1020 01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:05,840 Speaker 1: let me say one other thing about Tube and having 1021 01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,080 Speaker 1: played golf them a number of times. You know, there's 1022 01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:11,400 Speaker 1: that character in Men in Green. I can't remember his name, 1023 01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:15,320 Speaker 1: but he's the annoying guy who just hits it straight, 1024 01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,760 Speaker 1: has got a plan all the time, will never make 1025 01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:22,600 Speaker 1: worse than bogey on any hole. That's your Jeff Tuban. 1026 01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:27,960 Speaker 1: It's like, what did you shoot? The range is eight six? 1027 01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:33,160 Speaker 1: The fact that I had two seven's today, um like 1028 01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:37,120 Speaker 1: it is a refutation of that. But I appreciate the 1029 01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:45,560 Speaker 1: the the misleading compliment. Higley's highly cerebral golf. Unlike your 1030 01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:48,760 Speaker 1: emotional writer friend, al I wish I was less cerebral 1031 01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:54,080 Speaker 1: and world talented. Already, guys, see you later. Thanks, that's good. Alright, 1032 01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:56,680 Speaker 1: this has been another fire Drill podcast. Thank you to 1033 01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:00,440 Speaker 1: Jeffy Tuban and Michael Bamberger Zalen Chipnuk. Want to think 1034 01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:04,560 Speaker 1: part points. Who's our our longtime sponsor, our favorite golf 1035 01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:06,720 Speaker 1: scoring app you've heard just talk about it. It's great fun. 1036 01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:09,960 Speaker 1: You should definitely check it out for a highly cerebral golfer. 1037 01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:12,000 Speaker 1: It would add a whole new layer to the game. 1038 01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:15,520 Speaker 1: And uh, Michael and I endorse it so so listeners 1039 01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:17,919 Speaker 1: out there, thanks for sticking with us to the bitter end. Here. 1040 01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:20,919 Speaker 1: We will certainly be back at it as the story 1041 01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:22,600 Speaker 1: continues to evolve, and I have a feeling this will 1042 01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:24,040 Speaker 1: not be the last time we go to Jeff for 1043 01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:28,520 Speaker 1: some for some counsel. Uh so uh that's a rap 1044 01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:32,160 Speaker 1: from Carmel, California, Willington, Delaware. And where are you, Jeff? 1045 01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:34,959 Speaker 1: New York City, New York City. We got them all covered, 1046 01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:39,880 Speaker 1: all right, Thanks for listening. Foe bye. Then Big and 1047 01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:44,640 Speaker 1: Play to Win. Made a fortune with my ship game, 1048 01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:49,160 Speaker 1: and I ran a table and thought I could fall 1049 01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:52,040 Speaker 1: them to win. A time hit me like a cannon. 1050 01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:58,400 Speaker 1: The ball and now and Shake is losing the street. 1051 01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:04,440 Speaker 1: Every real I take is a dead end stream. I 1052 01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:09,040 Speaker 1: got thoughts in my head. Can't get him out, trying 1053 01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:13,120 Speaker 1: not to think what I'm thinking about. I gott thoughts 1054 01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:16,960 Speaker 1: in my head. I can't get him out, trying not 1055 01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:19,320 Speaker 1: to think what I'm thinking about.