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Speaker 1: I love a good tech scam, not the kind that

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Speaker 1: hurts people, but the kind that reveals just how much

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Speaker 1: smoke and mirrors holds the tech industry together. Case in point,

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three, a tech conference called Devternity got

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Speaker 1: caught faking female speakers with potentially fake photos and fabricated bios. Now,

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Speaker 1: at the time, it just seems like a kind of

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Speaker 1: embarrassing anomaly. We covered it on the show, had a

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Speaker 1: very good laugh, and pretty much moved on. But today,

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty six, with fake AI generated personas flooding

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Speaker 1: the Internet and being used for everything from marketing to

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Speaker 1: election interference, it looks less like a one off scandal

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Speaker 1: and more like a warning we should have heated. So

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Speaker 1: today let's revisit the story of dev Trinity and why

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Speaker 1: fake personas are the tech problem that nobody's taking seriously enough.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying this woman doesn't exist. I'm just saying

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Speaker 1: she reads like a woman written by a man. There

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Speaker 1: are no girls on the Internet. As a production of

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm bridge tad and this is

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Speaker 1: there are no girls on the Internet. So I feel

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Speaker 1: like Christmas has kind has come a little bit early

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Speaker 1: for me because Mike, as you know, not only am

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Speaker 1: I deeply fascinated by identity and technology, but also I

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Speaker 1: am deeply fascinated by my other true love, which is scams.

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Speaker 2: You know this about me.

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Speaker 1: I love a good scam. I love scam content. Scam podcasts,

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Speaker 1: give me all the scams. I mean, don't scam me,

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Speaker 1: but I want to be not involved in the scam.

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Speaker 1: And then hear about how the scam unfolded is what

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Speaker 1: can be like, Oh, that's how they did it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, your love of scams and catfishing is legendary, no doubt.

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Speaker 1: So catfishing is a scam that I am specifically interested in.

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Speaker 1: And this wild story that was blowing up on Twitter

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Speaker 1: last week involves all three identity and technology, scams, and catfishing,

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Speaker 1: And as fascinating as I find all of these, I

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Speaker 1: also think it's really a story that tells us a

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Speaker 1: lot about how people actually think about marginalized folks and technology,

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Speaker 1: Like do they actually see us when they see us?

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Speaker 1: Do they respect us when they actually do include us?

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Speaker 1: Is that inclusion a gimmick? Is it done to take

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Speaker 1: the heat off criticism? Like? Why is it done? And

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Speaker 1: when they try to include us and get it so

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Speaker 1: so so wrong. What does that tell us to So

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Speaker 1: let's talk about dev Trinity.

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Speaker 4: So.

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Speaker 1: Dev Trinity is a tech conference for developers that attendees

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Speaker 1: have to pay from as little as four hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty five dollars up to eight hundred and seventy dollars

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Speaker 1: to attend. It was founded by Edward Sizov in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: So this conference had been called out for not having

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Speaker 1: a very diverse lineup of speakers, like most of their

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Speaker 1: speakers tended to be white men. And to deal with that, Edwards,

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Speaker 1: the organizer allegedly decided to flesh out their lineup by

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Speaker 1: tapping into the existing pool of really talented, marginalized people

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Speaker 1: who have been building and shaking things up in tech

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Speaker 1: for a very long time.

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Speaker 2: Oh wait, no, no, no, that's not what he did. That

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Speaker 2: would be a normal thing to do.

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Speaker 1: What he actually did was flesh out that lineup by

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Speaker 1: creating AI generated women speakers to add to the lineup.

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Speaker 1: And as if that's not bad enough, like that's already

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Speaker 1: pretty bad, it doesn't stop there, because in addition to

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Speaker 1: creating those phony women to speak at his conference, it

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Speaker 1: was also revealed that Edwards had been running this entire

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Speaker 1: like fake female tech influencer Catfish Enterprise and had been

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Speaker 1: doing so for years. Unsurprisingly, the entire thing was full

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Speaker 1: of drama and honestly like, I don't think I have

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Speaker 1: ever seen anything unfold quite like this in the space before,

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Speaker 1: So let's get into it. So this all started when

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Speaker 1: engineer Gurgley Orzo's was looking into the lineup at dev

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Speaker 1: Trinity after a couple of his colleagues were asked to

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Speaker 1: speak there. He started looking into the lineup and became

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Speaker 1: a little bit suspicious of two of the women's speakers listed. So,

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Speaker 1: these two women's speakers had been listed as coming from

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Speaker 1: a pretty prominent tech company Coinbase, which is like a

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Speaker 1: cryptocurrency exchange platform, and a boyco who was on the

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Speaker 1: speaker's page listed as a staff engineer at Coinbase, and

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Speaker 1: Natalie slash Natalia sometimes it's Natalie, sometimes it's Ittalia Stadler,

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Speaker 1: who was listed as a software craftswoman at Coinbase. So

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Speaker 1: one of these women who was listed as working at

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Speaker 1: Coinbase said that she was also affiliated with Ethereum, a

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Speaker 1: type of cryptocurrency, and Girkley was like, it's a little

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Speaker 1: bit odd that somebody would be speaking at a conference

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Speaker 1: representing both Coinbase, a cryptocurrency platform, and also a type

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Speaker 1: of cryptocurrency. He was like, that didn't seem right to me,

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Speaker 1: So he got suspicious and looked into it, and that's

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Speaker 1: when he found that these women did not seem to exist.

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Speaker 1: They don't have any kind of social presence beyond what

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Speaker 1: appears on the conference website. Gurgly tweeted, imagine a tech

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Speaker 1: conference having no call for proposals. As they reach out

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Speaker 1: to speakers directly, they successfully attract some of the most

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Speaker 1: heavy hitter male speakers in tech and three women speakers.

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Speaker 1: Now imagine my surprise that two of those women are

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Speaker 1: fake profiles. They do not exist, nada. So I got

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Speaker 1: to really give it to Gurgley here. He must have

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Speaker 1: sniffed out that something was fishy and then like just

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Speaker 1: held it like nursed it like a grudge, and held

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Speaker 1: on to it like a dog with a bone. Because

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Speaker 1: dude did his homework. He found web archives that go

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Speaker 1: back to twenty twenty one that list these two non

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Speaker 1: existent women as speakers at Debternity. One of them also spoke,

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Speaker 1: or at least was listed as a speaker back in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: Two as well.

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Speaker 1: In the aftermath of all this, Gurgley really did some

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Speaker 1: deep digging. He found a tweet from twenty twenty one

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Speaker 1: publicly calling out the conference for having a mostly male lineup.

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Speaker 1: On August third, twenty twenty one, Mattie Stratton, a director

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Speaker 1: of developer relations, tweeted, good thing I'm not tweeting about

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Speaker 1: tech this week, or else I might have to call

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Speaker 1: out De Trinity for pretty much having all white dudes

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Speaker 1: as speakers. Given who they listed at the top, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't surprise.

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Speaker 4: Me at all.

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Speaker 1: So then Julia Krishina, also known as Coding Unicorn, who

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Speaker 1: calls herself one of the conference co founders, replies, remember

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Speaker 1: Julia's name because she is going to become important. Later,

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Speaker 1: Julia replies to Maddie's sweet saying, Hi, matt Julia from

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Speaker 1: the de Trinity team here, thanks for raising this. Out

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Speaker 1: of the fourteen invited female speakers, three confirmed, two canceled

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Speaker 1: as we had to postpone to survive COVID, there was

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Speaker 1: a lot to improve, so you can advise.

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Speaker 2: On how to make the line up better. Let's chat.

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Speaker 1: I'll send you a DM so this very same day

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Speaker 1: that Maddie calls out dep Trinity for having an all

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Speaker 1: male lineup. August third, twenty twenty one, is when dep

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Speaker 1: Trinity also coincidentally adds their very first fake woman speaker.

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Speaker 1: Like I said GURGLEI brought receipts. The de Trinity conference

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Speaker 1: website has a public GitHub repo. GitHub is a place

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Speaker 1: online where developers can show other folks that they're working on,

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Speaker 1: where you could see the full edit history of the

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Speaker 1: conference website. So he included a screenshot showing the specific

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Speaker 1: changes to the website and the date of those changes.

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Speaker 1: Confirms that Natalia Sladder, software craftswoman at Coinbase, was added

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Speaker 1: a few hours after Maddie's complaint of the lack of

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Speaker 1: diversity of the conference, two hours to be exact. In

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Speaker 1: that edit, Juliet, the conference co founder, was also added

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Speaker 1: to the speaker's lineup. So I don't know, that seems

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Speaker 1: pretty suspicious like that timing.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if.

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Speaker 3: You're gonna make up fake people, why have all the

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Speaker 3: changes to your website be publicly on GitHub.

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Speaker 1: Gurgley also found that another one of the fake women

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Speaker 1: added to the lineup's headshot was taken from this person

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Speaker 1: does not exist, which is a site that randomly generates

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Speaker 1: pictures of non existent people generated by AI, which is

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Speaker 1: like pretty funny that the play I swear he got

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Speaker 1: these pictures really spells out what's going on. This person

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Speaker 1: does not exist. Overall, Gurgley found four non existent people

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Speaker 1: who are all women listed as speakers on this conference

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Speaker 1: website since they were called out for their lack of

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Speaker 1: women speakers back in twenty twenty one. Gurgly writes on

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Speaker 1: his website, I decided to share that this conference advertises

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Speaker 1: fake speakers and has done so for years. This statement

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Speaker 1: is easily verifiable by anybody in the same way that

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Speaker 1: I did. I have not seen this type of deceit

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Speaker 1: at any other conference, and I've seen enough that I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to keep quiet and honestly, like I got

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Speaker 1: a major shout outs to Gurgley here, we will throw

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Speaker 1: the piece on his website with all of his receipts

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Speaker 1: in the show notes for folks to check out.

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Speaker 2: You definitely should. But one of the questions.

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Speaker 1: That Gurgley does ask is that he got suspicious when

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Speaker 1: he saw this lineup, and that he doesn't believe that

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Speaker 1: he is the only person who got suspicious, Like he

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Speaker 1: doesn't think he was the only person to be like

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Speaker 1: looking at these people up. These women were listed as

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Speaker 1: working for very prominent tech companies, and so certainly somebody

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Speaker 1: has like looked them up on LinkedIn or whatever for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason. Is like, I'm the only person who decided

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Speaker 1: to speak up about it who didn't want to keep quiet,

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Speaker 1: And even that to me is really interesting, Like I

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Speaker 1: don't know what's really going on there, but it almost

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Speaker 1: makes me wonder if the vast majority of people at

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Speaker 1: this conference didn't think the women speakers were worth really

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Speaker 1: paying attention to so, let alone like investigating, throwing them

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Speaker 1: into a quick Google search whatever.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they were just.

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Speaker 1: Like prominent male name in tech, prominent male name in tech,

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Speaker 1: prominent male name in tech, some useless chick, some useless chick,

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Speaker 1: prominent male name in tech, prominent male name in tech.

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Speaker 1: Like maybe it didn't even register to them to be

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Speaker 1: paying attention to the women speakers, what organizations they represented,

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Speaker 1: and what they were talking about. Maybe it didn't even

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Speaker 1: register to be looking at them all that closely because

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Speaker 1: like they maybe they just like didn't value them in

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Speaker 1: the same way.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. That's just my theory because I do

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Speaker 2: agree with Gurgli here.

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Speaker 1: That certainly he cannot be first person who have uncovered this,

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Speaker 1: and it did not take a very substantial amount of

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Speaker 1: digging to find out that these people weren't necessarily real.

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Speaker 2: So, like, what's going on?

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I feel like we encounter weird stuff online all the time,

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Speaker 3: and it's so easy to just chalk it up to

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Speaker 3: like maybe it's a scam, or maybe the internet is broken,

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Speaker 3: or maybe I don't understand.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I would like to think that if

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Speaker 1: I encountered this, I would have said something.

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Speaker 5: Would you have would you have dug like Gurgly.

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Speaker 1: I would have dug for sure if I if I

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Speaker 1: had sniffed out, Like I have a lot of time

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Speaker 1: on my hands and I love to do a deep dive,

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Speaker 1: So if I had like sniffed out that something funky

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Speaker 1: was going on, I probably would have looked into it.

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Speaker 1: I think I'm the kind of person who might have

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Speaker 1: like thought that I was misunderstanding something, or that I

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Speaker 1: was getting something wrong or misreading something. I respect that

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Speaker 1: Gurglely is the kind of person who was like, I'm

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Speaker 1: taking this to social media right away because something is

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Speaker 1: not right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate that too, kudos to Gurgley.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break editor back. So, Gurgley is.

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Speaker 1: Pretty suspicious about some of these womens speakers on the lineup.

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Speaker 1: He does some digging and decides to post about this

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Speaker 1: on LinkedIn and Twitter, where the Devternity conference founder Edward

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Speaker 1: says off first tweets in response. So his response is

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Speaker 1: probably one of the most dramatic but also nonsensical explanations

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Speaker 1: I have ever read in my life. It is super long,

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Speaker 1: we g It's still up on Twitter if folks want to,

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Speaker 1: We'll link to the whole thing. But like, I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna read the whole thing here, but I will get

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Speaker 1: into a couple of key bits. So, first of all,

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Speaker 1: Edward says that, oh no, it is not him who

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Speaker 1: has done something wrong. He heavily implies that Gurgley must

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Speaker 1: be the bad guy. Why because Gurgley took to social

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Speaker 1: media to talk about this in the first place, rather

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Speaker 1: than I guess like contacting him directly privately, which means

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Speaker 1: that Gurgley just wants attention, he just wants clout.

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Speaker 2: He's jealous, He's trying to take me down.

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Speaker 1: Edwards writes, I won't be responding directly to mister Orzov's

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Speaker 1: accusation and won't even link to it here. Given that

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Speaker 1: he didn't even bother contact in me and sharing his concerns,

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Speaker 1: he went straight to socials and using the power of

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Speaker 1: his social network, shared all his assumptions without validating them,

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Speaker 1: damaging my life's work and reputation. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: his intention was, but harm has been done, nothing good,

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Speaker 1: only harm. So yeah, it's Gurgle who is the bad guy.

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Speaker 1: Because Gurgley decided to like ask what's happening, to use

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Speaker 1: his platform on social media to ask some really good

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Speaker 1: questions that need answers.

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Speaker 2: That alone is evidence of Gurgley.

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Speaker 1: Being the bad guy and try being out to get Edwards.

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Speaker 1: Edwards also uses some pretty choy language defending himself. He writes,

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Speaker 1: how it's a blain to you what happened, and then

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Speaker 1: you decide if my life's work and the upcoming event

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Speaker 1: deserved to be ruined and I ought to be lynched.

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Speaker 1: The use of the word lynched there is a choice.

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Speaker 1: It will not be the last time he uses that

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Speaker 1: word to reference what's going on in the situation. So

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Speaker 1: then he kind of gets into his explanation of what's

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Speaker 1: going on, which is that basically it was a mistake,

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Speaker 1: a mistake that he realized happened, but then this didn't

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Speaker 1: have time to fix, he says. So he claims that

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Speaker 1: Natalie's name and profile was auto generated with a random title,

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Speaker 1: random Twitter handle, and random picture, and that he realized

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Speaker 1: that this was happening and it was a mistake that

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Speaker 1: he intended to fix it, but then he realized that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't going to be a quick fix, and that quote,

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Speaker 1: it's better to have that demo persona while I'm searching

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Speaker 1: for replacement speakers. And first of all, like I am

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Speaker 1: no developer, So like, maybe it's not a quick fix.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it takes days to fix this.

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Speaker 1: I cannot speak for whether or not that's true. It

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Speaker 1: does sound like bullshit to me, but I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But I have to say, even if that is true,

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Speaker 1: Like even if what he said we take him at

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Speaker 1: his word, it is still, in my book, pretty deceitful

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Speaker 1: because you're asking people to pay eight hundred dollars when

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Speaker 1: you know the lineup that you are advertising publicly could

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Speaker 1: not possibly come to fruition. Like what if I'm really

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Speaker 1: interested in whatever this fake person Natalie has to say,

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Speaker 1: and her line like her line of work and her expertise,

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Speaker 1: and I spend money. I plumped down eight hundred dollars

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Speaker 1: to see her speak because I'm interested in her, and

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Speaker 1: you advertise her as a speaker.

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Speaker 2: That would be deceitful.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting to me how he in his explanation

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Speaker 1: glosses over that so quickly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the deceitfulness here is definitely the worst part.

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Speaker 1: So he does say that the conference ended up having

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Speaker 1: a less diverse than predicted lineup because these women who

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Speaker 1: had agreed to speak all dropped out for reasons that

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Speaker 1: he could not control. He writes, Sandy for health issues,

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Speaker 1: Julia switched to helping the organization. You can't do both

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Speaker 1: speaking and organization. Sandy and Julia didn't make it to

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Speaker 1: the final schedule, but they kept appearing on the website. Well,

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Speaker 1: I was looking for a replacement. This partially led to

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Speaker 1: an accusation that since they're not part of the schedule,

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Speaker 1: we've probably added them just to meet arbitrary diversity criterias.

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Speaker 1: This statement is bold and unfair. Sandy and Julia confirmed

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Speaker 1: their participation. They should have been part of the final schedule,

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Speaker 1: but dropped out for reasons out of our control at

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Speaker 1: the worst possible time, ask Sandy or Julia. So we

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Speaker 1: ended up with only one female speaker, Chris. So while

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Speaker 1: I was looking for a last minute replacement hoping i'd

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Speaker 1: find it, Sandy and Julia were still mentioned on the website.

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Speaker 1: So I have to say some of these people did

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Speaker 1: end up being real. Christine Howard, who is the head

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Speaker 1: of developer relations at Amazon Web Services, confirmed a foural

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Speaker 1: for media that she had agreed to speak and that

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Speaker 1: she does exist. Sandy Metz is a real person who

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Speaker 1: four or four media confirmed did agree to speak and

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Speaker 1: had to drop out because she was getting nee surgery.

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Speaker 1: The conference founder keeps repeating this like very weird point

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Speaker 1: in his defense, that none of the fake women ever

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Speaker 1: actually made it onto the final lineup. And I don't

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Speaker 1: totally know what he means there, but I think that

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Speaker 1: what he is saying is that even though these women

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Speaker 1: weren't actually speaking and they were listed as speakers, that

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Speaker 1: they didn't actually show up to speak, and so like

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Speaker 1: nobody was duped, but like, of course they didn't show

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Speaker 1: up to speak, they're not real people.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like he's saying that Julia had to drop

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Speaker 3: out because she was going to be on the organizing committee,

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Speaker 3: And I've never heard of that being a rule that, like,

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Speaker 3: if you're on the organizing committee, you can't speak at

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Speaker 3: the conference. Like that's just not a thing that I've

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Speaker 3: ever heard, So that doesn't make sense. And then he

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Speaker 3: also says that she had to drop out due to

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Speaker 3: circumstances beyond their control. But that circumstance was that she

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Speaker 3: wanted to be an organizer rather than a speaker, So

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Speaker 3: like that also does it make sense?

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Speaker 1: No, none of it makes sense. His entire explanation is

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Speaker 1: nonsensical to me. So after this whole thing went viral

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Speaker 1: on Twitter, Edwards did remove the fake women from the website,

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Speaker 1: so I guess, apparently, and ended up being a quicker

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Speaker 1: fix than he had previously indicated. Like the reason why

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Speaker 1: he said that he couldn't he was aware of this

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Speaker 1: mistake on the website but couldn't fix it is because

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Speaker 1: it was not a quick fix, but apparently quick enough

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Speaker 1: that it could be taken care of within a day

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Speaker 1: of this going viral on Twitter, right.

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Speaker 3: And the fix was changing some copy on the website,

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Speaker 3: which historically in most systems, is a pretty quick fix.

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Speaker 2: It would take weeks.

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Speaker 1: So lastly, from Edwards's long Twitter explanation, you know who

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Speaker 1: is really at thought?

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Speaker 2: Here?

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Speaker 5: Can you guess society?

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Speaker 2: Society?

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Speaker 1: According to Edwards, specifically, cancel culture. He tweeted, I said

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Speaker 1: it's a mistake, a bug that turned out to be

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Speaker 1: a feature. I even fixed that on my website. We're cool, right, No,

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Speaker 1: we want blood. Let's cancel this sinner all caps. The

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Speaker 1: amount of hate and lynching I keep receiving is as

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Speaker 1: if I would have scammed or killed someone. But I

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Speaker 1: won't defend myself because I don't feel guilty.

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Speaker 2: I did nothing terrible that I need to apologize for.

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Speaker 1: Side note, I'm not sure that Edward knows what lynching

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Speaker 1: is like. I would like to sit him down and

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Speaker 1: ask him what he thinks it entails. So not only

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Speaker 1: is this, in my opinion, like deeply unethical behavior from

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Speaker 1: the perspective of people being asked to pay eight up

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Speaker 1: to eight hundred dollars to attend this conference with a

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Speaker 1: fake lineup, it also really sucks for the other speakers.

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Speaker 1: Scott Hanselman, who is a very well respected person in

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Speaker 1: the space who cares a lot about things like inclusion

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Speaker 1: and diversity in Tech was slated to speak but pulled out.

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Speaker 1: After all this happened, he tweeted, this whole conference debacle

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Speaker 1: is so disappointing. Speakers like myself, when invited to a conference,

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Speaker 1: will immediately say who all's going to be there. I've

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Speaker 1: my rules for participation posted on my site, including an

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Speaker 1: inclusive lineup for years. I was duped by fake speakers also,

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Speaker 1: and so it's pretty bad when people who have made

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Speaker 1: it their thing to use their like Scott Hanselman is

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Speaker 1: a white man. The fact that he is someone who

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Speaker 1: is like intentionally using his privilege and his reputation in his.

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Speaker 2: Background to try to.

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Speaker 1: Help inclusion in the space and like do what he

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Speaker 1: can to make it more inclusive by saying, yeah, if

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Speaker 1: you want me to speak at your event, it has

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Speaker 1: to be inclusive. Giving that incentive for organizers to make

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Speaker 1: their spaces inclusive. It doesn't work if these organizers just

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Speaker 1: lie and just make up who is who is going

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Speaker 1: to be on the lineup. David Heinemeir Hansen, the creator

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Speaker 1: of Rubyon Rails, was also slated to speak and pulled out,

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Speaker 1: and he said that he asked for his name to

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Speaker 1: be removed from the lineup. Website, a request that was

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Speaker 1: not honored.

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Speaker 2: Oooh.

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Speaker 1: I mean I have to say if I had all

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Speaker 1: of these like big name, high profile people in the

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Speaker 1: tech space dragging me like this, I would just be more.

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Speaker 1: This is like like I had nothing to do with this,

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Speaker 1: and I'm embarrassed for Edwards, you know, like this would

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Speaker 1: be mortifying to me.

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Speaker 3: From what I've seen poking around it, like the dep

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Speaker 3: Turnity website and Julia's coding Unicorn Instagram account, it seems

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Speaker 3: like there Edwards is really into deb Turnity. I mean,

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Speaker 3: obviously it's his whole it seems to be his whole

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Speaker 3: professional gig. But it's just like the aesthetic trappings of

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Speaker 3: coding so far as I can tell, Like maybe there's

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Speaker 3: more to it, but like the sense that one gets

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Speaker 3: from looking at the social accounts is not that there's

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Speaker 3: like deep important wisdom uh and new stuff being revealed

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Speaker 3: at this conference, but it's really just it'sthetics and social

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Speaker 3: aspects of being a coder developer. And so the loss

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Speaker 3: of these high profile people that that's got to like

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Speaker 3: really sting, right because it seems like the whole thing

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Speaker 3: is built on big names and credibility and uh star.

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Speaker 1: Fucking So I want to get into that more in

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Speaker 1: just a bit, because I have picked up on what

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Speaker 1: you're saying too and think I think it goes quite

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Speaker 1: a bit deeper than that. But specifically about the dev

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Speaker 1: Trinity conference. In preparing for this episode, I too like

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Speaker 1: poked around their website and their social and the video,

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Speaker 1: like their sizzle reel that they have for the event.

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Speaker 1: It basically is like dev Trinity, this is a conference

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Speaker 1: people attend. There are lanyards like It's like what they're

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Speaker 1: telling me is like, this is definitely a tech conference

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Speaker 1: that people go to. Like they're not telling me what

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Speaker 1: I will learn, what the space feels like, like why

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Speaker 1: I want to show up there. It's they're more interested

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Speaker 1: in the flash and surface appearance of a slick tech conference,

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Speaker 1: but it feels completely surface level.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and maybe we could talk about the name dev Turnity.

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Speaker 3: What does that mean? One might say it doesn't mean anything.

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Speaker 2: One might even go further and say, maybe it's a

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Speaker 2: little bit fake.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but it is a real name. It seems to

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Speaker 3: be a blend of the words dev as a developer

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Speaker 3: and eternity as in the time period that thirteen year

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Speaker 3: olds will pledge their undying love. I guess it's putting

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Speaker 3: those things together with a fake Instagram account of a

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Speaker 3: fake woman.

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Speaker 1: Well, you don't have to worry about that for too

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Speaker 1: much longer because deb Turnity is canceled. Several speakers started

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Speaker 1: dropping out after this happened, and the event was meant

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Speaker 1: to be in just a few days, so it's not happening.

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Speaker 2: So even if it was just that right like.

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Speaker 1: This would already be one of the weirdest stories I

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Speaker 1: have ever heard happening at a tech conference. But as

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Speaker 1: you hinted, it does not stop there because remember Julia

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Speaker 1: Krishina aka Coding Unicorn, the conference co founder. So Julia

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Speaker 1: was slated to be a speaker at dep Trinity in

437
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, and twenty twenty three.

438
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 1: She was the person who was supposed to speak, but

439
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 1: then moved up to be an organizer, so she couldn't speak,

440
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: and we think that maybe that's a BS but whatever.

441
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: She is also a pretty established tech influencer. Her Instagram

442
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 1: account called Coding Unicorn, goes back to twenty eighteen. She

443
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 1: has one hundred and twenty thousand followers on her account,

444
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: where her bio reads the best coding account on Instagram. Hi,

445
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: my name is Julia. I am a professional software developer

446
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 1: posting nobs coding career and productivity tips and a dep

447
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 1: Trinity fan. She's done your basic like influencer stuff. She

448
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: does giveaways, raffles on her on her platform, all that stuff.

449
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:07,360
Speaker 1: Her pictures show her presumably working on code and really

450
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: looking hot, like showing a lot of cleavage and just

451
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: generally kind of like being a tech hottie while really

452
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: hyping up devternity events and conferences. But and here's the

453
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: big reveal, She's not even real. It doesn't look like

454
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 1: foural four Media looked into it. They found ip logs

455
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 1: that seemed to indicate Edwards inviting and then logging into

456
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: an account belonging to Coding Unicorn, which is Julia's social

457
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: media handle, so basically just like logging in as her.

458
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: A YouTube video posted last year by Edwards that had

459
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 1: five views when four l four media accessed it showed

460
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: him logged into his own email accounts, as well as

461
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: one for coding Unicorn. Many of Coding Unicorn's posts are

462
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: just copied and pasted from Edwards's LinkedIn or Instagram without

463
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: any attribution. Edwards also pretty explicitly admits that he is

464
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: the one responsible for the coding Unicorn account on his

465
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 1: LinkedIn profile, saying I devote most of my time to

466
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: growing the most popular coding account on Instagram with one

467
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty k followers coding Unicorn, without elaborating on

468
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 1: exactly what that entails. So this is pretty confusing. I

469
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: think it's time we heard from Julia herself. Hi, everybody,

470
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: it's good in unicorn here.

471
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: Do you want to.

472
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 4: Become an awesome software developer, build a successful career, become

473
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 4: more productive than happy?

474
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 2: I'm here to have.

475
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, the tech company hash Node published an

476
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: interview with Julia on their Women in Tech blog, all

477
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: about the issues that Juliet faces being a woman working

478
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: in a male dominated space. Now, the person that wrote

479
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: that article has confirmed with foural for Media that the

480
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 1: interview was conducted via email and they never actually spoke. Honestly,

481
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: the interview kind of reads like bad hack girl fan fiction.

482
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: Here's a little taste of it. Julia, how'd you get

483
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: into tech? Nine years ago? My parents forced me to

484
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: go to college and get a computer science degree. They

485
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: wanted me to find a nice, quiet office job because

486
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: I was a problem kid, a school rebel. I didn't

487
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: fulfill my parents' dreams. I am still a rebel, but

488
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: one with a computer science degree. So tell me that

489
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: does not sound like like a fantasy version of a

490
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 1: woman working in tech, Like I'm a rebel.

491
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 2: The reason why I.

492
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: Became a programmer is because my parents were looking for

493
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: me to settle down and find a nice, quiet job

494
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: to stay out of trouble.

495
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like something from the nineties movie Hackers.

496
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: Which, by the way, I was looking at a picture

497
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: of the fashions from that movie Matthew Lillard in the

498
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 1: movie Hackers. Like the way that they had imagined how

499
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: computer hackers dress in that movie is is really something.

500
00:26:58,520 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: I guess I'll just leave it at that.

501
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: So in this interview, when Julia is asked about gender

502
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: bias in tech, will surprised Julia actually thinks that it's

503
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: a men who suffer the most when it comes to

504
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: gender bias in tech.

505
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: She says, I don't.

506
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: Like seeing women as victims because such a mindset turns

507
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: men into suspects. Men suffer from biases equal to women.

508
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 1: Think of job interviews, we give too much attention to

509
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: gender bias and appreciate other cognition biases such as doubt avoidance,

510
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 1: where we make an ill decision just to avoid uncertainty

511
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 1: or reject a person that doesn't look nice enough. Julia's

512
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: advice for women to deal with gender bias stop blaming

513
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 1: others for being biased, improve yourself.

514
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: So, yeah, it reads to me.

515
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: Like this fantasy, fictionalized version of a woman in tech

516
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: who doesn't think that there's any kind of gender bias.

517
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: It is not even interested in talking about it. Certainly

518
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 1: it would not say that she has faced it herself,

519
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: and it's only interested in improving herself.

520
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 2: Like that just reads like a woman invented by a man.

521
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 4: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

522
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: So the evidence that links Edwards to being Julia, like

523
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 1: catfishing as Julia, or at least that indicates that she's

524
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: not a real human, is pretty overwhelming. Some of the

525
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 1: images that she has posted on Instagram that show computer monitors.

526
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 2: Have her logged in under Edwards's name.

527
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: On Lobster's, a coding social media forum, Edwards and Julia's

528
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: accounts were banned multiple times for sock puppeting in twenty

529
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: nineteen and twenty twenty, the person who runs Lobster said,

530
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: I remember being creeped out of the effort involved and

531
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: choice to use Instagram glamour shots. It was just the

532
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: one profile when I saw him, and I'm kind of

533
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: stunned that he's not just continued, but multiplied his efforts again.

534
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: Many of Julia's Instagram posts were copied word for word

535
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: Edwards's own social media accounts, and The Verge looked into

536
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: the university where Julia claims to have attended for her

537
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: bachelor's degree in information technology on her LinkedIn and the

538
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: university said that they do not indicate any records of

539
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: a student with her name. I'm also like ninety nine

540
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: percent sure that it is not even the same woman

541
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: in every picture. It's like just a hot woman with

542
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: dark hair and ample cleavage and every picture. But I

543
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: genuinely like, I went back to the very first post

544
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: back in twenty eighteen, and I genuinely think they are

545
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: different people. The woman who is used back in twenty

546
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: eighteen when the account first starts.

547
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: Looks very different from the woman that is used today.

548
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: They both have brown hair and ample bosom, but that

549
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: is pretty much where the similarities end. Will put a

550
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: link to a couple of pictures of Julia from her

551
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: Instagram in the show notes, and honestly, you can be

552
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: the judge. Let me know if you think this is legit,

553
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: these are all the same women, or if you think

554
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: something is going on And this is kind of complicated,

555
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: like I want to make sure that I speaking about

556
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: this carefully, but we need to talk about the way

557
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: that Julia presents physically on Instagram. Like it's clear that

558
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: he is going for a specific kind of look with

559
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: the way that Julia looks on social media, Like she's

560
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: very conventionally attractive. In all of her pictures, she's posed

561
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: to look like I saw somebody describe it as almost

562
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: like a booth babe kind of way, where the cleavage

563
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: is very prominent. The poses are all kind of like

564
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: like I wouldn't call them sexualized, but they're definitely meant

565
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,959
Speaker 1: to highlight her physicality and her looks and her figure.

566
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: And it's this very specific kind of almost like an

567
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: Uncanny Valley kind of hot where she is in these

568
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: very clearly posed, staged pictures that look kind of fake

569
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: that could not possibly be depicting a real scenario where

570
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: she's like really working like this is. This might sound miner,

571
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: but one of the things about her is that she

572
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: talks quite a bit about how being a developer means

573
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: that she can travel the world, doesn't have a boss,

574
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: she can work from whatever exotic locale that she wants.

575
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: So in one picture, she's meant to be working from

576
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: like someplace like an exotic beach of some kind, and

577
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: she's holding one of those big, giant coconuts where they

578
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: just chop the top off and put a straw in

579
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: it and then you're drinking it.

580
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: Not the small ones, the big ones. So if you've

581
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: ever had.

582
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: One of those, you know that they're like they're coconuts,

583
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: and so the bottom is round it it's not flat.

584
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: You couldn't put it on a table like you would

585
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: a normal beverage container that has a flat bottom.

586
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: It's rounded.

587
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: It's a coconut. So she's holding it in one hand

588
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: and working on her laptop with another. In what world

589
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: with somebody whose computer is the main thing they work

590
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: on beholding a tippy beverage that you cannot sit down

591
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: while also working one handed on their laptop.

592
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: I don't buy it never happening.

593
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 3: Best case scenario it's a risky move.

594
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:00,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's risky.

595
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: So I feel like Julia almost exists as this kind

596
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: of fantasy woman that a man would cook up right, heaving, cleavage, beautiful,

597
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: but also a really skilled programmer. She's not a feminist.

598
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: She doesn't think that women have any societal disadvantages because

599
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: of their gender. She has a dirty mouth and makes

600
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: like pithy zingers about how people need to worry less

601
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: about convention and worry more about leveling up their tech skills.

602
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: She describes herself as a free thinker. In one post,

603
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: she talks about her favorite podcasts. Can you guess who

604
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: she lists as one of her favorite podcasts?

605
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 5: Is it us.

606
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 2: Believe Cut?

607
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 5: You know we got a tech podcast here?

608
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: No, it's Joe Rogan, of course.

609
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 5: Famous tech podcaster Joe Rogan.

610
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 2: She also likes Tim Ferris.

611
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 5: Also noted developer.

612
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: And she does this thing where she photo shops herself

613
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: into pictures with family tech leaders, Like she's a picture

614
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: of her self photoshopped with Elon Musk, another picture of

615
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: her self photoshopped with Jeff Bezos. We actually found the

616
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: source picture, and it's like she just photoshopped herself over

617
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: his ex wife.

618
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it was like an iconic photo that was

619
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 3: the go to photo for Jeff Bezos before they got divorced.

620
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 3: Like anyone who's seen a photo of Jeff Bezos in

621
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 3: the twenty tens, like that was it?

622
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you really called it.

623
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: You were like, I've seen this picture before, and you

624
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: found it on reverse Google image search very quickly. Side note,

625
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: if anybody ever watches the MTV show Catfish, you know

626
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: that that's like when when somebody who thinks they're being

627
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: Catfish calls Nev Schulman, pretty much the only thing he

628
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: can do is like, let's let's reverse Google image search

629
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: these these pictures. It's like it's like the one tool

630
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: in his toolbox that he has. So if they're ever

631
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: looking for a replacement host for that show, they could

632
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: call us because we.

633
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: Know how to do it too.

634
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: So I think that Julia is like this caricature of

635
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: a certain type of man's dream woman, or like the

636
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: kind of thing that a male programmer might cook up

637
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,919
Speaker 1: in his head and his fantasy as a woman in tech.

638
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,240
Speaker 1: You know, if you've ever seen the movie Gone Girl,

639
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: it's like the cool girl persona but for tech, right,

640
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: Like she's cool, she doesn't she's not a feminist, She

641
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: has a foul mouth. Loves Joe Rogan thinks your sexist

642
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: jokes are really cute. Loves Elon Musk Like. I'm not

643
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 1: saying this woman doesn't exist. I'm just saying she reads

644
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,479
Speaker 1: like a woman written by a man in his head.

645
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: And it really reminds me of something that an influencer

646
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: with a very large male following once told me. She

647
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: told me that if your audience is men, like if

648
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: you're trying to curate men as your audience and it's

649
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: men who are consuming your content on Instagram, those men

650
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: are imagining themselves with you. So you can't have like

651
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 1: other men in your images. You can't have anything that

652
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: would that would ruin the illusion.

653
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 2: That they could be with you. You can't have that

654
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 2: in your images.

655
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: So I think whoever is running Julia's account, I think

656
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: it's probably Edwards is doing so in this way that

657
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 1: very much lets techy guys imagine that they could be

658
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 1: traveling the world with this like beautiful, foul mouthed, nerdy

659
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: woman who only wants to talk about leveling up her

660
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: tech skills while wearing like a bikini, right, Like this

661
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: Julia account is for men like I think that. When

662
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: I first saw it, I thought like, oh, this is

663
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 1: an account that's trying to boost representation for women in tech.

664
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: Looking at it again, it's like, no, No, this is

665
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: an account for men. This is an account that is

666
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: trying to be a place where male programmers gather, like

667
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: come for the cheesecake, cleavage shots, stay for my pithy

668
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: musings on programming and culture. One commenter on Julia's Instagram

669
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: put it really well, they said, I thought this group

670
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: is about programming, but it appears to be a group

671
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,959
Speaker 1: of horny dudes drooling over a girl that always post

672
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 1: right next to a laptop, which I thought it's really funny.

673
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 1: So apparently me and that commenter are not the only

674
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: ones who are suspicious. In a twenty twenty comment that

675
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: Julia left on Hacker News, she actually spoke to the

676
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: idea of people not thinking that she is real, but

677
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: how she twists this around about making it a response

678
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: to a dig about how women can't be programmers, not

679
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: whether or not she exists at all. In her comment

680
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: on Hacker News, she writes as a female developer with

681
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: sixty k followers on Instagram, I went through all of

682
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: this programmers. Don't look like that. You're fake, some dude

683
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 1: writes on your content. Are you a model or a coder?

684
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: Bullies are not the happiest people on the planet. Some

685
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: of them have been harassed or bullied by their parents,

686
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: in schools, etc. I discovered the hard way. When I

687
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: pay back with the hate, it makes me feel bad

688
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: and also feeds their hate. The hardest and probably wisest

689
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: solution is to respond with love to those unhappy folks,

690
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: or not responding at all. It's very hard, but it works.

691
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: Now keep in mind Julia wrote this in a comment

692
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: on another post on hacker News, so that means that

693
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: Edwards is likely like not just posting on Instagram as Julia,

694
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,720
Speaker 1: but also doing interviews and in comments across the internet

695
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 1: as Julia as well.

696
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 5: WHOA, this goes deep.

697
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 1: So I've gone through both Julia's account and Edward's account

698
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: from a very beginning, did a lot of scrolling, and

699
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: here is my theory about what I think is going on.

700
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 2: This is not this is just my opinion.

701
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: I think that Edwards at some point decided that he

702
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 1: wanted to be like an online tech influencer and market

703
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 1: himself on social media as somebody who should be listened

704
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: to when it comes to those kind of conversations. That

705
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: kind of goes back to what you were saying, Mike

706
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: about how dev turnity. It seems like a kind of

707
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 1: shallow representation of a tech conference, right. I think that

708
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: Edwards corded for himself that tech persona guy like I

709
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: see it a lot on Twitter since Elon Musk took

710
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: over somebody who was always trying to like maximize their

711
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 1: game and like Game of by success and always giving

712
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: you like eight rules for productivity, eight hacks for this,

713
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: like things that aren't even necessarily about tech always I think,

714
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: like a general influencer on tech but also life. Like

715
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 1: that's what I think that he wanted to be, and

716
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 1: he or he thought, like I need to do this.

717
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: It'll be successful for me if I do this, you know,

718
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,439
Speaker 1: not just about tech, but about what books to read,

719
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: how to think about culture. So in twenty sixteen, Edwards'

720
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: instagram is pretty normal, right, Like it's pictures of his family,

721
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: pretty normal, pictures of himself, pictures of himself with like

722
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: a lightsaber from Star Wars or with like Game of

723
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: Thrones characters. But around twenty eighteen, his pictures sort of change.

724
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: They become a lot more polished and a lot more influencery,

725
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, he really is like

726
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: marketing himself as a tech luminary. He's taking pictures of

727
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: the books that he's reading. He's you know, in captions,

728
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 1: giving life advice about tech life and leveling up. And

729
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: I think that he must have done this for a

730
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: little bit of time and maybe not seen success or growth,

731
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: and then sometime in twenty eighteen he creates Julia's page. Now,

732
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 1: the first few pictures on Julia's Instagram account, interestingly don't show.

733
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,720
Speaker 2: Julia's face right. They're just like disembodied body parts.

734
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: Like in one it's a close up of her cleavage

735
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 1: holding a book about programming called Elegant Objects up against

736
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,959
Speaker 1: her chest. In another, it's just her feet while she's

737
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: like got a laptop on her lap in some In

738
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,720
Speaker 1: many of them, she is using her hands to obscure

739
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: her face or like has her face down. Honestly, I

740
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 1: think that COVID was probably like beneficial to these people

741
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: because in a lot of the images post COVID, you

742
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: see Julia wearing a face mask, and so I think

743
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: they were like oh great, we've got a reason to

744
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: not show her face. And so, you know, at first

745
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 1: I was thinking about how deeply insulting this entire thing

746
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: is to women in tech. You know, this idea that

747
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: says that being a woman in tech means like wearing

748
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: a bikini that says GitHub on it and showing off

749
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: your body while there's like a laptop vaguely in the

750
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: background or whatever. But I also want to say that, like,

751
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: not only is it incredibly insulting to women, and is

752
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: also incredibly insulting to men.

753
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: I think, like I think that.

754
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 1: Edwards thinks that men are so horny and stupid that

755
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: they won't even notice that it is not the same

756
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: woman in every picture. Like, they are so stupid and

757
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: horny that if you create a fictional version of their

758
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: own fantasy that is just projecting their desires back at them,

759
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 1: they will be invested and also believe that person actually exists.

760
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,879
Speaker 3: So that's a lot of effort. What do you think

761
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 3: is getting out of all.

762
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 1: Of this, Well, first of all, I think this is

763
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: partially just a good old fashioned financial scam. Julia is

764
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 1: meant to hype up his own conferences and tech entities, right,

765
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: like she has Deptrinity in her bio next to a

766
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: little heart. She often wears like Deptrinity shirts and talks

767
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: about how much she loves the conferences. People have to

768
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: pay as much as eight hundred dollars to go to

769
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,240
Speaker 1: these events that Julia hypes up to her one hundred

770
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: and fifty thousand Instagram or one hundred and twenty thousand

771
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 1: Instagram followers. Edwards also sells master classes, and so I

772
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: think that Julia in some ways is just like having

773
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: your own built in sexy tech influencer to hype up

774
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: whatever the thing is that you're selling, and it's just

775
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 1: like a straightforward financial grift. But I also think it

776
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 1: doesn't stop there, because that wouldn't explain the effort that

777
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: it takes to like comment as Julia on Hacker News right,

778
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: to comment in articles as Julia right, because that's that's

779
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 1: a different thing. So I also think that there might

780
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: be like a kind of clout that comes with being Julia,

781
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: this attractive woman in technology. You know, I almost would

782
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: feel differently if Edwards was you know, if when he

783
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: was asked to do an interview for a blog about

784
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: women in tech, if he was like, oh, this is

785
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: just a persona like I don't want to take up room.

786
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: I don't want to take away a slot from another

787
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: an actual human woman in tech. But he did those

788
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: interviews specifically about being a woman in tech, and he

789
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: did them as Julia. He could have like it would

790
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 1: be pretty weird, but he could have been like, oh, well,

791
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 1: this is what I've learned as a man running an

792
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: account as a woman persona in tech, Like, Like, there

793
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: are all kinds of things he could have done that

794
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 1: I feel like I would be looking at it a

795
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: little bit less side i e. But he didn't do

796
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: any of those things, And so I think there must

797
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: be like an element to this that must be fun,

798
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: Like it's probably fun to see your following and reach grow,

799
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: Like I think that he if he was unable to

800
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: be a tech influencer when he's just like some guy,

801
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: when he's a sexy woman, Certainly it's easier to grow

802
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: an audience of programmer men when you're a sexy woman.

803
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 1: And I think it probably is fun and intoxicating to

804
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: see your following.

805
00:42:58,080 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 2: And reach grow.

806
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: So I think that Julia allowed for Edwards to be

807
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: the tech influencer that he never got to be as himself.

808
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: That he never would be as himself because his musings aren't.

809
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 2: Really that novel.

810
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: They're not really that good, right saying, if you're listening

811
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: a list of podcasts for folks to check out, and

812
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: top three is Joe Rogan the most popular podcaster in

813
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 1: the world. I'm sorry, that's not really novel advice. If

814
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 1: the books that you're suggesting people read are books like

815
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: Atomic Habits, I'm sorry that book is in every airport

816
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 1: in the country. These are not novel takes. This is

817
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: not novel advice. I think that he's somebody who wanted

818
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,439
Speaker 1: the shine of being a tech luminary, somebody who could

819
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,240
Speaker 1: give sage wisdom that people when he spoke, people would listen.

820
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: But I don't think he had that in him, and

821
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: so I think that doing it as Julia was the

822
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: only way that he could do it and actually make

823
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 1: an impact, which is actually kind of sad when you

824
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: think about it that way.

825
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 3: It makes a lot of sense when you say it

826
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 3: like that. The thing that I just have to keep

827
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 3: wondering is what was what's the bigger thing for him?

828
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 3: What was the bigger piece of the motivation? Was it

829
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 3: the financial grift and cosplaying Julia was just the way

830
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 3: to get the following that would allow him to sell

831
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 3: tickets to like make the financial grift work, or was

832
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 3: the bigger motivation being part of that cool kids club

833
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 3: of tech guys who talk about their agile practices and

834
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 3: post changes to their website to get hub for some

835
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 3: ridiculous reason.

836
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: If I I mean, I will have to ask Edwards,

837
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 1: I would happily interview him. If he wants to do

838
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 1: the interview, ask Julia, we'll we'll figure that out. But no,

839
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 1: I think it's gotta be the latter. I think that

840
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: like esespecially in tech, I think that's a currency.

841
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 2: I think getting to feel like you're somebody.

842
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 1: Who people listen to it feels good. And I think

843
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: that it's a space where I mean, I think it's

844
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: a space where people were like, when you're a guy,

845
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,240
Speaker 1: A lot of guys who are like pretty mediocre rise

846
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: to that get to have those kinds of platforms. And

847
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: I think that he probably just saw some of those

848
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: guys and was like, why not me? And so I

849
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: think it's gotta be I think the grift was probably

850
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: a part of it, but I think if, in my opinion,

851
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 1: not the only part.

852
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 2: And I think that you know.

853
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: As weird of a story as this is, I do

854
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: think it all goes back to this persistent myth that

855
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:37,479
Speaker 1: there are no women in tech.

856
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,399
Speaker 2: It's the myth that I started this.

857
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 1: Podcast to bust, you know, Like Edwards was quoted as saying,

858
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: the real problem is that there are not enough women

859
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: out there that he could book to speak, and that

860
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: tech conferences are all chasing this very small group of women,

861
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: and that's the problem. He said, there have been thousands

862
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: of events chasing the same small subgroup of women speakers,

863
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 1: and not to me real like that reveals to me

864
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: a really just messed up way of understanding and thinking

865
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 1: about marginalized people and technology. If you, if you truly

866
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 1: believe that how it works is that there's a small

867
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: handful of people that go to every conference that's because

868
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: every other are on every stage, and that every conference

869
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 1: is just like booking those same people. That to me

870
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: signals that like, first of all, you don't really know

871
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 1: the space, because that's.

872
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 2: Just it makes me laugh. But second of all, you

873
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 2: don't really care.

874
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 1: You don't really care about uplifting marginalized voices. You maybe

875
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: have gleaned that in twenty twenty three, you can't have

876
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: a lineup of all white men at a tech conference

877
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: without somebody saying something about it, And so you know

878
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: that you need to not have people saying something about it.

879
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 2: But you don't really care beyond that.

880
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 1: And I think it also shows to me that he

881
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 1: didn't think it was worth it to do the real work,

882
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 1: like somehow this elaborate catfish AI generated scam to him

883
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 1: was less work than just like widening your network of

884
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: marginalized people. And honestly, it's like other conferences managed to

885
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: do that work of lifting up actual marginalized humans who

886
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: exist in the space without.

887
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: Inventing fake people.

888
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 4: Right.

889
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: Valerie Phoenix, the founder of Tech by Choice, which is

890
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: a group that highlights underestimated people in tech, really put

891
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: it well on Twitter. Valerie says, the last few days,

892
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 1: I've felt like a slap in the face to many

893
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: of us whose experiences are seen as cosplay or engagement.

894
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 1: I've dedicated countless hours to running Tech by Choice, a

895
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: nonprofit focused on helping underrepresented groups thrive in tech through education,

896
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: resources and mentorship. It's never been about engagement, status, or power.

897
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 1: It's about making a difference. Every grifter and catfish story

898
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: we push engagement towards overshadows marginalized individuals real struggles and.

899
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 2: Victories in tech. And I guess that's how I feel like.

900
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: There are so many women and trans folks and non

901
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: binary folks and queer folks and black folks and people

902
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: of color in the space that the and these kind

903
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: of stunts just like further complicate that experience for.

904
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 2: Us even more.

905
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: This might be a bit of a tangent, but I

906
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 1: did want to talk about it because I remember we

907
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 1: talked about the Grace Hopper conference and how this men

908
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: showed up and like overran this conference that was specifically

909
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 1: supposed to be a place for women in tech. And

910
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 1: one of the things that we did not talk about

911
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 1: in that episode that is absolutely true that actually a

912
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: listener correctly called me out on not raising in that

913
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: episode is that a climate where men are taking opportunities

914
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: like this away from marginalized people really also hurts gender

915
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 1: nonconforming folks, trans folks, people who are butcher or mask

916
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: So it creates this climate where people feel like they

917
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: need to be suspicious of these folks when these are

918
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 1: the same people who should be feeling comfort and included

919
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,879
Speaker 1: in these spaces, right, It creates the conditions where folks

920
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 1: feel like even more surveiled and watched and sidelined and

921
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: pushed out of these spaces where they really ought to

922
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: be included. And so stunts like this one just make

923
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: it harder for actual marginalized people humans who exist in tech.

924
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: You know, we already have to prove we belong, Prove

925
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 1: we aren't fake, Prove we are real, Prove we're in tech,

926
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: Prove we know what we're doing, and now prove that

927
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: we exist, that we're actually humans.

928
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 2: Like I've actually already seen.

929
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 1: Men on Twitter saying that this whole catfish thing just

930
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: proves like what happens when people focus too much on diversity.

931
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: So this whole debacle of a man doing something bad

932
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: is already being used to further marginalize and punish people

933
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: who are already marginalized in tech, Like it never ends.

934
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: And I think it really is important that like, inclusion

935
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,280
Speaker 1: is not something that you do for points or clouds

936
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: or to get followers to your fake account, or to

937
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: grift or to avoid getting called out. It really matters,

938
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,359
Speaker 1: Like we've talked about this on across several episodes, It

939
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: matters that our spaces where technology is being built, include

940
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 1: as many voices as they can. It matters for all

941
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: of us. And so I think that people like Edwards

942
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 1: just don't get it right. They just see it as

943
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: this cosmetic thing that you can use to boost your

944
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: own credibility, and.

945
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 2: That it really hurts. It hurts. It hurts that this

946
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 2: is how they see us. It really does.

947
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 3: It also seems like it's not clear what Edwards is

948
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 3: actually building. So the idea that like you'll build it

949
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 3: better if you have more diverse viewpoints in the room,

950
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 3: like you'll end up with a better product, I'm not

951
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 3: sure he would get that because it's not clear like

952
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 3: what he has built other than like a scammy conference.

953
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 1: Yes, and I think again it goes back to your

954
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: point of using the veneer of like tech bro just

955
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: to build your personal brand, not to build anything really

956
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:01,280
Speaker 1: anything that matters.

957
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 2: And yeah, I just I don't like it. I don't

958
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 2: think it. I don't think it serves.

959
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: Us when that is seen as a currency, I don't

960
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: think it serves us. So I wanted to end a

961
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,320
Speaker 1: little bit of a where are they now? So Edwards

962
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: has been pretty quiet on Twitter after this whole thing unfolded.

963
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:21,359
Speaker 1: His last tweets are still his tweets about being canceled,

964
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 1: and you know his weird explanations from November twenty fifth,

965
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 1: the Diparty conference is canceled. As for Julia, Well, on

966
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: November seventeenth, she hinted that maybe she's re examining her

967
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 1: priorities and might be spending less time on Instagram on

968
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: her last post on November seventeenth, saying, I started posting

969
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 1: less on Instagram since my life priorities have changed significantly,

970
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: or maybe I'm just getting older, So maybe we'll be

971
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: hearing a little bit less from Julia on Instagram. Got

972
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 1: a story about an interesting thing in tech?

973
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: I just want to say Hi.

974
00:51:58,680 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 4: You can read just a Hello at ten.

975
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tagodi

976
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was

977
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 1: created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production of iHeartRadio

978
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari

979
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado is

980
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 1: our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you

981
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: want to help us grow, rate and review us on

982
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the

983
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.