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Speaker 2: You're at the volume heavy Wednesday, everybody. I hope all
Speaker 2: of you guys are having a great week. I figured now,
Speaker 2: right before we head into our Thanksgiving break is the
Speaker 2: best time for us to touch base on contenders. And
Speaker 2: I've done a lot of power rankings. I've done a
Speaker 2: lot of game breakdowns. I've done a lot of film breakdowns.
Speaker 2: I've done a lot of arguing of various sorts. But
Speaker 2: I have yet to reapproach my contend rankings. And so
Speaker 2: what I'd like to do is do what I've done
Speaker 2: every time we've done tender rankings over the last couple
Speaker 2: of years, which is have my good friend Sam Vessini
Speaker 2: from The Athletic on the show to break it all down.
Speaker 2: First of all, Sam, how are you doing, man? How
Speaker 2: is life down in Melbourne? No Thanksgiving right here?
Speaker 1: Life is great. We you know, Thanksgiving unsurprisingly, given the
Speaker 1: nature of what Thanksgiving is with the Pilgrims and the
Speaker 1: Indians or the Native Americans, I'm sorry coming together and
Speaker 1: you know, having a meal that didn't really happen here.
Speaker 1: So you know, at the end of the day, my
Speaker 1: wife's father is American and by nature, my wife is an American.
Speaker 1: Because of that, she's dual citizenship. So we had like
Speaker 1: a little get together with you know, fifteen twenty people,
Speaker 1: some of my wife's parents' friends and everything. And yeah,
Speaker 1: we have a Thanksgiving meal every year, just on the weekend,
Speaker 1: not on Thursday. My Thursday will be a normal Thursday
Speaker 1: for me.
Speaker 2: Thursday is a horribly inconvenient day for us to do
Speaker 2: this giant amount of cooking and social life before we
Speaker 2: all go back to work on Friday. My wife works
Speaker 2: in retail, so she'd end up ends up having a
Speaker 2: crazy day. Then I used to work in retail ages ago,
Speaker 2: so like that is what it is. But any excuse
Speaker 2: to cook some turkey or Prime Rib or a big
Speaker 2: prime Rib family. That's something that we do around our house.
Speaker 2: But I want to start on a very basic concept,
Speaker 2: which is when we did our contender rankings to start
Speaker 2: the year, I had four teams in that tier, which
Speaker 2: was Boston. I had Denver two, and then I had
Speaker 2: OKAC three, and I had New York four. You had
Speaker 2: Boston and Oklahoma City on their own tier. I've watched
Speaker 2: quite a bit of Oklahoma City this year, especially in
Speaker 2: the last week, and I'm actually starting to view Boston
Speaker 2: as on a tier by themselves. And my case for
Speaker 2: that is not that Oklahoma City doesn't have the potential
Speaker 2: to improve, because they've underachieved a little bit offensively to
Speaker 2: this point in the season, and I know that they'll
Speaker 2: get better in time. And I'm liking their early returns
Speaker 2: on Isaiah Hartenstein, both as like a connective passer and
Speaker 2: also as a screener and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: The thing specific that has me a little hesitant with
Speaker 2: Oklahoma City, and I want you to either talk me
Speaker 2: off the led to or agree, is their decision making
Speaker 2: in the half court kind of reminds me of Boston
Speaker 2: a few years ago. Where their talent is almost the
Speaker 2: enemy of their success sometimes and their pursuit of the
Speaker 2: best shot or a great shot is not quite where
Speaker 2: it needs to be relative to where Boston is, where
Speaker 2: you can tell they have their stretches of bad shot selection,
Speaker 2: but they're better at settling down and maintaining focus for longer.
Speaker 2: So what have been your concerns with Oklahoma City's offense
Speaker 2: and do you still consider them to be on the
Speaker 2: same tier as Boston.
Speaker 1: So I would have Boston. I think I said I
Speaker 1: had Boston one A and Oklahoma City one B previously.
Speaker 1: I think that if we're, you know, doing the tier
Speaker 1: system here, I would probably have Boston at number one,
Speaker 1: Oklahoma City at number two, but would have Oklahoma City.
Speaker 1: Like if Boston is the highest end of that tier,
Speaker 1: maybe Oklahoma City is like the lowest end of what
Speaker 1: a Tier one team looks like. And the reason for
Speaker 1: that is, Look, we'll talk about the offensive things that
Speaker 1: you brought up, and I think they're all valid. Actually,
Speaker 1: I do Oklahoma City's defense to start the year. Like
Speaker 1: when we talked about Oklahoma City, I think I said
Speaker 1: that they were almost guaranteed to be like a top
Speaker 1: three defense, like almost no matter what they did, that's
Speaker 1: probably where they're going to be. Do you know what
Speaker 1: they were defensively before chet Holmgren got hurt and they
Speaker 1: had to start experimenting with these like Jalen Williams at
Speaker 1: the center lineups. They were They were not just number one,
Speaker 1: they were number one by like eight points per one
Speaker 1: hundred possessions over number two. They had a ninety seven
Speaker 1: point five defensive rating in the game before chet Holmgren
Speaker 1: got hurt. So we all expected, Hey, team that was
Speaker 1: a top five defense last year goes out, gets Alex
Speaker 1: Caruso and Isaiah Hartenstein, two of what I would argue
Speaker 1: are probably in the top fifteen to twenty defenders across
Speaker 1: the entire NBA, and adding them into your lineup, along
Speaker 1: with improvement from Cason Wallace, who is another really really
Speaker 1: good defender. You know, it was very hard to envision
Speaker 1: this team not being a super high level defense, But
Speaker 1: I think I somehow underestimated how good they might be
Speaker 1: on defense. So that's where I would start and why
Speaker 1: I think that they are in that top tier with
Speaker 1: Boston because they still have all the line of flexibility
Speaker 1: that we talked about in the preseason. The ability to
Speaker 1: match high or match big with Christopson Al Horford, or
Speaker 1: matchup against Yokich, or the ability to go small, which
Speaker 1: they've now gotten to showcase with like even hyper super
Speaker 1: small lineups with Jalen Williams at the five let alone,
Speaker 1: just like the flexibility they having Chet at the five
Speaker 1: brings you in terms of five out spacing. So I'm
Speaker 1: excited about that. The offensive decision making, the overall offensive flow,
Speaker 1: especially late in games, I do agree with you generally
Speaker 1: that it can get a little bit stagnant. I think
Speaker 1: that in general, Shay gilg Just Alexander and Jalen Williams
Speaker 1: are great players, great drivers of the ball. They're not
Speaker 1: selfish players by any stretch of the imagination. I just
Speaker 1: don't know that they consistently make the super super high
Speaker 1: level reads all the time for two guys that are
Speaker 1: going to have the ball in their hands late in games.
Speaker 1: You know, It's not like Anthony Edwards level, which has
Speaker 1: been you know somehow. I don't know if he's regressed.
Speaker 1: We'll probably talk about the Wolves a little bit later,
Speaker 1: but he feels like he is certainly not taking a
Speaker 1: step forward in regard to late game decision making. They're
Speaker 1: not that level in terms of frustrating, but I do
Speaker 1: think that they need to take that next step forward
Speaker 1: in terms of being able to consistently just make the
Speaker 1: high level reads over the last five minutes of the
Speaker 1: game when defense is really tightened up.
Speaker 2: The point you made about the defense is important, and
Speaker 2: it's one that I think I've undersold in my coverage
Speaker 2: of Oklahoma City in the sense that like they have
Speaker 2: a lot of the similar kind of like perimeter athleticism, strength,
Speaker 2: ground coverage, all the stuff we've talked about, the ability
Speaker 2: to pressure the ball, keeping waves of defenders coming in
Speaker 2: the game. The one difference is Boston just has a
Speaker 2: little bit more size on the perimeter just because of
Speaker 2: the Tatum Jalen Brown piece. But I in a weird way,
Speaker 2: like I think lou Dort kind of has a lot
Speaker 2: of size in his own way, Like I don't think
Speaker 2: it's a coincidence that lou Dort made Luca feel a
Speaker 2: hell of a lot more uncomfortable than Jaden McDaniels did,
Speaker 2: for instance, last year.
Speaker 3: The piece that makes it.
Speaker 2: Different is everyone talks about Chrisapsportzincas as the rim protector. Right,
Speaker 2: It's like, Okay, we got a rim protector back. Boston
Speaker 2: doesn't really have a rim protector. This is that other
Speaker 2: element of that you know, kind of elite defensive profile
Speaker 2: that we've seen over the years that said, like Chet
Speaker 2: is a rim protector that also has ground coverage, and
Speaker 2: that is the thing that makes him so terrifying, and
Speaker 2: what makes that entire unit so terrifying is like they
Speaker 2: can engage in high level defensive you know process that
Speaker 2: we've seen around the league in terms of keeping Chet
Speaker 2: at the rim, which we've already seen, Like we've seen
Speaker 2: stuff like him communicating with guards off ball to make
Speaker 2: sure he's always the low man instead of getting pulled up.
Speaker 3: High and things along those lines.
Speaker 2: And when you combine that with the layers of perimeter
Speaker 2: d I actually would agree that I think Oklahoma City
Speaker 2: can actually get to a higher level defensively than Boston
Speaker 2: can get. There are like Oklahoma City started to freak
Speaker 2: me out a little bit in the Dallas series with
Speaker 2: their incessant challenging of the rim protectors.
Speaker 3: I said this on my show yesterday.
Speaker 2: It kind of reminded me of Boston against Milwaukee in
Speaker 2: the second round of twenty twenty two. If you remember
Speaker 2: where those idiots kept trying Brook Lopez at the rim,
Speaker 2: like the series kept oscillating back and forth when Jalen
Speaker 2: Brown and Jason Tatum would make better reads when they
Speaker 2: got to the rim, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 2: because they had the ability to get great looks whenever
Speaker 2: they wanted to, but they would bog down too often
Speaker 2: through that bad process. And so I think, like I remember,
Speaker 2: coming into the season, I talked about how my main
Speaker 2: concerns were, like, Jalen Williams and Chad Holmgren are basically
Speaker 2: your number two, and they're very young and very inexperienced,
Speaker 2: and they're going to be asked to carry significant stretches
Speaker 2: of basketball in big moments. And so that is the
Speaker 2: part to me that I get. I just get a
Speaker 2: little bit concerned about, is just are they grown up
Speaker 2: enough to be in a big playoff game against a
Speaker 2: really good team late and to make the right decisions
Speaker 2: they need to make. Because as we look back on Dallas, Sam,
Speaker 2: Dallas is good. I think they're firmly in that second
Speaker 2: tier of championship contending teams. But I didn't think they
Speaker 2: were in the top tier last year. I thought they
Speaker 2: were a team that caught some favorable matchups and got
Speaker 2: out of the West, which means, okay, see basically got
Speaker 2: upset in that second round series by Dallas, and so
Speaker 2: I would argue they're further away than that series would
Speaker 2: lead you to believe. And so I'm just I'm just
Speaker 2: a little bit skeptical of that decision making process. What
Speaker 2: have you seen from Jalen Williams that makes you feel
Speaker 2: like he might be ready for that sort of thing
Speaker 2: this year?
Speaker 1: Everything is kind of the answer. Jaler Williams been unbelievable.
Speaker 1: If you look at his last ten games since they've
Speaker 1: been you know, basically without chat for a large portion
Speaker 1: of that run, he's really had to step up. He's
Speaker 1: averaging twenty five points, seven rebounds, six assists versus only
Speaker 1: two point three turnovers, two point two steals, one point
Speaker 1: three blocks. I think he has also sneaky taken a
Speaker 1: big step forward defensively without a lot of people necessarily
Speaker 1: recognizing yet. But by the way, he's shooting fifty seven
Speaker 1: forty ninety four over that run in his last ten games.
Speaker 1: So again, like Jalen Williams is one of those guys
Speaker 1: where I think you and I have been talking about
Speaker 1: him for like three years. As if there's a guy
Speaker 1: I'm betting on in the league right now that you
Speaker 1: know people, you can't give me enough stock of his Basically,
Speaker 1: there's not enough. There's not enough out there that I
Speaker 1: won't just buy it all and be happy with the results.
Speaker 1: At a certain point. To me, he's going to be
Speaker 1: an All NBA player, and this year he is starting
Speaker 1: to take steps toward being that. At the very least
Speaker 1: so far, I think he has been one of the
Speaker 1: ten best players in the Western Conference to this point,
Speaker 1: so you see where he is going. And I still
Speaker 1: think that there are moments kind of like we discussed
Speaker 1: where late in games they do give him the ball
Speaker 1: quite a bit, and he does need to just continue
Speaker 1: to improve small decision making issues in terms of overdriving
Speaker 1: to the basket. For some reason, and I can't quite
Speaker 1: figure out what this is, he is like the most
Speaker 1: like physical dude. He drives and slashes constantly. He is
Speaker 1: physical at the point of attack, defensive, he just does
Speaker 1: not draw fowls for whatever reason. Even in this great
Speaker 1: run where he's been unbelievable, he's still only getting three
Speaker 1: foul shots per game. I don't know if it's a
Speaker 1: I can't put my finger on if it's if it's
Speaker 1: a footwork thing where he's kind of leaning away, if
Speaker 1: it's a thing where he just doesn't have their respective
Speaker 1: officials yet. I think that might be part of it. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I can't tell why he doesn't get calls around the basket,
Speaker 1: but he does drive into the basket pretty regularly in
Speaker 1: a way that you would expect him to eventually draw fouls.
Speaker 1: That's really the next step for him, if he starts
Speaker 1: drawing fouls in the way that somebody like Jimmy Butler does,
Speaker 1: and he has the ability to do that because of
Speaker 1: his physical frame, like he can take contact, absorb it,
Speaker 1: and finish through contact. I don't I don't know. Man
Speaker 1: like that guy looks like he could be a top
Speaker 1: ten player in the league at some point. And if
Speaker 1: you have him an Shay, maybe.
Speaker 3: It's a year early.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe he doesn't work out those kind of
Speaker 1: issues and doesn't get to the line and things like
Speaker 1: that happen. But I don't know. They just might not
Speaker 1: be as good as Boston, Like Boston was terrifying last
Speaker 1: night against the Clippers at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: like they were insane. That was Christop's first game, and
Speaker 1: like you could just see the impact he had immediately,
Speaker 1: Like they start, they didn't know what to do, Like
Speaker 1: they started with zoobots on him, and then they started running,
Speaker 1: like even with bench units they at Houser and Pritchard
Speaker 1: come in, Like they'll run Prichard and Hauser as ball screeners.
Speaker 1: They'll run them as the backman in stack pick and rolls.
Speaker 1: They'll do like early exit stacks. They'll do just like
Speaker 1: late release stacks where a screener gets there. They will
Speaker 1: like run all sorts of different options in terms of
Speaker 1: trying to find you know, creative avenues in transition. If
Speaker 1: you are off even by the slightest smallest angle in
Speaker 1: transition defense, if you are overloaded to one side by
Speaker 1: one person, they will kill you because they will spread
Speaker 1: out to the three point line and they will make
Speaker 1: shots atay forty five to fifty percent clip probably in transition.
Speaker 1: So and then on top of it, you saw the
Speaker 1: Clippers trying to adjust, they would go, Okay, we're gonna
Speaker 1: put zoobots on Drew. Holiday that didn't work because then
Speaker 1: you've got a smaller guy in KP, and KP can
Speaker 1: put as.
Speaker 2: The primary defender for a stretch of that game is insane.
Speaker 1: It was just like, well, okay, I get it. Maybe
Speaker 1: you want zu bots to be the help defender and
Speaker 1: you want him around the basket. They use Drew Holliday
Speaker 1: as a cutter pretty regularly, but Drew Holliday is a
Speaker 1: freaking All Star and multi time like Gold medalist. He's
Speaker 1: able to take guys off the bounce on the perimeter.
Speaker 1: He just doesn't do it because he doesn't have to
Speaker 1: within that offense. So they just have so many different
Speaker 1: ways to beat you at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: That's my main concern and main issue if I was
Speaker 1: Oklahoma City. Look, Boston's the best team in the league.
Speaker 1: Like that's the reality of this, and their their highest
Speaker 1: level is better than anybody else's highest level. It's just
Speaker 1: whether or not they get to the playoffs clean.
Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, I'm on the same page with you.
Speaker 2: I think I would. I think I make them a
Speaker 2: slight favorite to win the title, even if Porzingis never
Speaker 2: played another game this year. Like that's that's that's how
Speaker 2: I feel about them in general as is. And so yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: the James Harden and Porzingis thing was was a little
Speaker 2: weird because I'm just watching James Harden inattentively stand around
Speaker 2: as Porzingis just walks inside position on him and gets
Speaker 2: an offensive rebound put back, and I'm.
Speaker 3: Like, what are we even doing here?
Speaker 2: So We're on the same page there at the Boston's
Speaker 2: level one, it just sounds to me like I have okay, see,
Speaker 2: I'm kind of a separate tier and you kind of
Speaker 2: have them as just like kind of hanging on to
Speaker 2: that top tier, just kind of almost at that level.
Speaker 2: So the next two teams that have been big surprises
Speaker 2: in the early part of the season a couple of
Speaker 2: things that make it difficult to interpret. For instance, the
Speaker 2: Cleveland Cavaliers have seven teen wins, but only four of
Speaker 2: them have been against teams that are currently five hundred
Speaker 2: are better, which makes them difficult to interpret. And then
Speaker 2: the Golden State Warriors are a twelve and five in
Speaker 2: the Western Conference. Do you give either of those teams
Speaker 2: a real chance to win four playoff rounds based on
Speaker 2: what you've seen from them here in the early going?
Speaker 1: The Warriors, I think no, They're the easier answer to
Speaker 1: me because I feel like the Warriors are getting by
Speaker 1: with depth and with like eleven man lineups in Cleveland
Speaker 1: is too, by the way, Like that's an underrated thing
Speaker 1: that's happening with the Cavs, Like their bench has been
Speaker 1: unbelievable to this point, led by Tijerome, But like the Warriors,
Speaker 1: it feels like are getting by with just like a
Speaker 1: ton of really smart basketball players that know how to
Speaker 1: play the game, that know how to run that scheme.
Speaker 1: And I don't even know that they necessarily have unbelievable
Speaker 1: ways to match up with you, Like they don't have
Speaker 1: an enormous front line, right like Tray Shackson Davis is
Speaker 1: an undersized center. Kaman Looney probably isn't like totally undersized,
Speaker 1: but kun Looney just like might not be good enough
Speaker 1: anymore to like anchor a defense. So they're almost always
Speaker 1: gonna have to go small right in order to get
Speaker 1: the most out of their lineups. And if you go
Speaker 1: small against, for instance, the Denver Nuggets, if you go
Speaker 1: small against this iteration of the Oklahoma City Thunder, I
Speaker 1: think you're gonna have problems now if because they can
Speaker 1: go big against you, and they can go Hartenstein and
Speaker 1: chat once we see chet back, and that's a whole
Speaker 1: other thing, like what is Check gonna be once he
Speaker 1: gets back. From what I understand about the hip injury,
Speaker 1: it's one of these is that it's a from what
Speaker 1: I understand, it's just like a pain thing. It's not
Speaker 1: something that will like inflict upon his mobility, uh moving forward,
Speaker 1: or like even once he heals from it. It's just
Speaker 1: literally like when the pain stops kind of thing, and
Speaker 1: once the injury itself, the fracture heals, right.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 3: Fractures for a while too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I think he'll be back this year. It's
Speaker 1: just like, look, I can't sit here and tell you
Speaker 1: like the level that he's definitely gonna be back at,
Speaker 1: but that what I will say about Chet is like,
Speaker 1: you know, people look at him. He's missed his whole
Speaker 1: rookie season. He's going to miss a portion of this year. Now,
Speaker 1: don't mistake that with like a lack of toughness necessarily,
Speaker 1: Like he suffered a serious injury in that pro am game.
Speaker 1: He suffered a serious injury where he fractured that bone
Speaker 1: in his hip or whatever, uh in this game against
Speaker 1: the Golden State Warriors who were talking about and Andrew Wiggins.
Speaker 1: So don't mistake that though with a lack of toughness.
Speaker 1: Like chet Holmgren will get out there and play. He
Speaker 1: will play through the pain like if Oklahoma City allows him.
Speaker 1: It's just whether or not he's going to be able
Speaker 1: to or not. Don't don't take that, you know, one
Speaker 1: way or another in terms of his lack of pain tolerance.
Speaker 1: On the Warriors, I just don't know that they have
Speaker 1: enough talent. It's kind of where I'm at with them.
Speaker 1: Like they have a lot of depth, They have a
Speaker 1: lot of interesting depth. That cool thing about them is
Speaker 1: that if a star comes available for whatever reason this season,
Speaker 1: they are very well positioned to be able to go
Speaker 1: get that star. If they want to extend out the
Speaker 1: Stephan Curry window. They have Jonathan kaminga who they decided
Speaker 1: not to extend, which makes him a potential trade target.
Speaker 1: They have all of their picks moving forward, which gives
Speaker 1: them a number of potential avenues to create deals. Even
Speaker 1: somebody I think like Cam Johnson would really help them
Speaker 1: immensely just in terms of offensive flow, structure, consistent spacing.
Speaker 1: When Buddy Healed isn't on the court. Buddy Healed started
Speaker 1: the season incredibly well. Over the class six yes, six
Speaker 1: or seven games he's cooled way off and he's really
Speaker 1: hard to have out there defensively. So there are matchups
Speaker 1: where he's gonna have it. There are gonna be nights
Speaker 1: where he has it. But what do you do when
Speaker 1: he doesn't have it? Is a big question for Golden
Speaker 1: State on offense. For me right now, I mean, where
Speaker 1: do you fall on them? Let's let's start with us
Speaker 1: the way we go to the calves here.
Speaker 2: I found the Warriors to be kind of proof of
Speaker 2: concept of a couple of key things that you and
Speaker 2: I both believe in at a really high level in
Speaker 2: terms of our kind of like basketball worldview. And like
Speaker 2: you said depth, I think it's not just depth, it's
Speaker 2: a depth of a specific type of player, which is
Speaker 2: like a fast player who's pretty good at everything, like
Speaker 2: not necessarily.
Speaker 1: Like there's thinks fast.
Speaker 3: Yes, the big thing fast exactly.
Speaker 2: And like I've thought so much about just kind of
Speaker 2: the way the game has changed, particularly in the regular season.
Speaker 2: And I'm glad you mentioned that there's a talent limit
Speaker 2: there because this has been something that's been a difficult
Speaker 2: pill for some Warriors fans to swallow over the course
Speaker 2: of the start of the season. And I don't blame them,
Speaker 2: because every fan base can get a little bit arrogant
Speaker 2: when their team starts to rack up wins. But like
Speaker 2: there is a there is a certain type of game
Speaker 2: that Golden State can play that shows and spits teams
Speaker 2: out in terms of the way that they pressure the ball,
Speaker 2: in terms of the way that they fly around and rotate.
Speaker 2: They have these some of the sharpest closeouts I see
Speaker 2: in the league come out of Golden State and their
Speaker 2: ability to defend the three point line while also offering
Speaker 2: help there. It's it's a it's a principle that I
Speaker 2: believe in very strongly now, which is that the best
Speaker 2: foundational like trait that any roster can have is to
Speaker 2: have a bunch of big athletes on the perimeter that
Speaker 2: compete and I think like specifically on the perimeter, that
Speaker 2: can cover ground and that play hard. You need a
Speaker 2: good variety two of like different sizes and types, but
Speaker 2: you need that type of type of trade.
Speaker 3: I don't. I can't.
Speaker 2: I would argue besides foundational superstar, of which there's only
Speaker 2: four or five in the entire league, that's the most
Speaker 2: important thing you can have is a trove of athletes.
Speaker 2: Would you agree at that point as the number.
Speaker 1: Look ros, yeah, I was gonna say, like, I'll give
Speaker 1: you an example. Like Atlanta this year has been like
Speaker 1: pretty feisty and competitive for the most part, despite not
Speaker 1: having DeAndre Hunter and Bogden mcdonovich for like a majority
Speaker 1: of the year. Right. I know that they've lost like
Speaker 1: three in a row and like they haven't played super
Speaker 1: super well over the course of the last week, but like,
Speaker 1: that's a team that is feisty and in large part
Speaker 1: their biggest additions this summer, we're Dyson Daniels, Zachary Rissa Chet,
Speaker 1: guys that are feisty, that are long, they can cover
Speaker 1: ground defensively. Like, those guys really really help, I think
Speaker 1: in terms of what Atlanta is looking to do with,
Speaker 1: you know, surrounding Trey Young with talent. Right, you know,
Speaker 1: Trey Young is probably not one of those foundational superstars,
Speaker 1: but he is somebody that is an incredible offensive talent,
Speaker 1: and having those guys around him allows him just to
Speaker 1: go and be like, hey, create the offense every night,
Speaker 1: Please don't be a total sieve on defense, and you know,
Speaker 1: we trust that we'll be able to rack you know,
Speaker 1: maybe not a five hundred team, but we might get
Speaker 1: to thirty five to forty wins. Maybe the antithesis of
Speaker 1: this is another team that I'm sure we'll talk about today,
Speaker 1: The Bucks. Right the Bucks have really struggled with that,
Speaker 1: and that's a big reason why on some level they
Speaker 1: are playing below their talent level, even though Yannis over
Speaker 1: the last I would argue two and a half three weeks,
Speaker 1: this might be the best I've ever seen Yannis play
Speaker 1: on offense. Just point blank, he has been.
Speaker 2: He's been so good, otherworldly.
Speaker 1: You can maybe say the final series against the Suns,
Speaker 1: and I would hear that out as well. But like,
Speaker 1: what he's adding now is the mid range jumper and
Speaker 1: every like, it's a totally different beast to deal with
Speaker 1: with Yannis. So the fact that they don't have that
Speaker 1: foundational perimeter skill and speed and understanding of how to
Speaker 1: close out onto shooters, that is a critical, critical thing
Speaker 1: that they're missing right now, and they need to go
Speaker 1: out and find that at the trade deadline, you know,
Speaker 1: before the trade line. Frankly, hopefully.
Speaker 2: One of the things I've appreciated with the Bucks is
Speaker 2: like they kind of have found it a little bit.
Speaker 2: They found a little bit of a baseline for them
Speaker 2: for forty eight minutes at the point of attack between
Speaker 2: ajax And and aj Green, who I actually think has
Speaker 2: done a pretty damn good job guarding the ball, and
Speaker 2: he's like these converting spot ups that like damn near
Speaker 2: point and a half for possessions, so like that they
Speaker 2: kind of have like found their little formula there where.
Speaker 2: Shout out to Brooke and Giannis, by the way, those
Speaker 2: two guys have had a flashback defensive stretch here over
Speaker 2: the last couple of weeks, nothing like a nothing like
Speaker 2: a disastrous and two and eight start to kind of
Speaker 2: like to kick you in the butt a little bit
Speaker 2: and get you moving. But like, yeah, I that has
Speaker 2: become my biggest You and I have talked about this
Speaker 2: at various points over the course of the last few years,
Speaker 2: and it's manifested in different like kind of like buzzwords,
Speaker 2: but I remember for you it was ground coverage. That
Speaker 2: was the thing that you said to me in our
Speaker 2: postseason kind of conversation last year. And for me, I've
Speaker 2: been referring to it as perimeter athleticism, but it basically
Speaker 2: means the exact same thing. But I've viewed that as
Speaker 2: like the baseline and then the second piece of it,
Speaker 2: and I think some of the success that Dallas has
Speaker 2: had without Luca in the last couple of weeks has
Speaker 2: been a great example of this is creating space by
Speaker 2: allowing your big men to operate as screening and passing
Speaker 2: folcrums from the perimeter rather than occupying space around the rim.
Speaker 2: And this has been a Golden State staple for over
Speaker 2: a decade now. But this is something we've seen all
Speaker 2: around the league. The Dallas when they are trying to
Speaker 2: run offense with Luke off the floor, it's a lot
Speaker 2: of Lively at the top of the key with guards
Speaker 2: screening for each other and cutting off of them. They
Speaker 2: ran like a blender possession against the Nuggets when they
Speaker 2: beat them the other night, where they had Kyrie come
Speaker 2: running off of a Derek Lively dribble hand off at
Speaker 2: the top, but it was a fake. He didn't get it.
Speaker 2: Then Quintin Grimes came flying off the dribble hand off.
Speaker 2: He did get it. As he got it, Lively rolled,
Speaker 2: but then as he rolled he kind of dragged Jamal
Speaker 2: Murray into the payton. Nasey Marshall relocated to the top,
Speaker 2: got a little close that opportunity to be Jamal murraybou
Speaker 2: Jamal Murray, by the way, some of the worst defense
Speaker 2: I've seen ever from a player in the last couple
Speaker 2: of games from him. It's his little comment that he
Speaker 2: threw out that this was part of my video that
Speaker 2: I recorded today that just disappeared into the ether. But
Speaker 2: Jamal Murray had a Jamal Murray had a yeah for
Speaker 2: the hoops to night listeners, I did work today. You're
Speaker 2: just not gonna see the video because it doesn't exist anymore.
Speaker 2: That we had a little mac crisis today. But anyway,
Speaker 2: Jamal Murray like went out and started talking about his
Speaker 2: teammates partying partying in Los Angeles and then was the
Speaker 2: reason why they like got eviscerated by the Knicks. But anyway,
Speaker 2: my basketball worldview has come around to this idea that like,
Speaker 2: if you are not creating space around the rim by
Speaker 2: using your bigs further away from the rim as screening
Speaker 2: and passing folkrums, if you are not getting the ball
Speaker 2: side to side, if you do not have multiple ball
Speaker 2: handling threats on the floor, there's a ceiling to your offense,
Speaker 2: especially when you get to the light playoff rounds. It's
Speaker 2: something that I feel very very passionately about, and like
Speaker 2: ironically it kind of the gap to Cleveland because in
Speaker 2: the same way that Golden State, to me is proof
Speaker 2: of concept of two ideas, which is that offensive organization
Speaker 2: piece I was just talking about, in that perimeter athleticism piece,
Speaker 2: the Caves to me are kind of another example of
Speaker 2: Kenny Atkinson bringing a lot of the same ideologies to
Speaker 2: Cleveland in terms of how to play offense, how to
Speaker 2: defend as well with the switching and containing. But like
Speaker 2: staying on Golden State for a second, to put it
Speaker 2: very simply, like there right now, there's way too much
Speaker 2: like Andrew Wiggins needs to be our savior for this
Speaker 2: thing to work out, and like he's been playing really well.
Speaker 2: Like I pulled this out on my mythological show that
Speaker 2: existed earlier today. I said that Andrew Wiggins had played
Speaker 2: four games in a row and scored twenty plus points
Speaker 2: for the first time since May of twenty twenty one
Speaker 2: in this recent stretch, and he only had eighteen in
Speaker 2: the lost to Brooklyn last night. But like the previous
Speaker 2: four games, he's like he's been playing really, really well,
Speaker 2: and like I've been saying, like the Warriors need like
Speaker 2: specifically a front court type of player who can pretty
Speaker 2: reliably get them to twenty points a game efficiently and
Speaker 2: can create his own shot without having to rely on
Speaker 2: Steph And like, one of the things that's things that's
Speaker 2: happening is and this is where it went off the
Speaker 2: rails for them in the Brooklyn game last night, is
Speaker 2: their bench units really struggle to score unless Buddy Heield's
Speaker 2: just making everything. And Buddy Hild, even when he was hot,
Speaker 2: was making a lot of pretty tough, tightly contested shots.
Speaker 2: And so my thing is, like there's a lot of
Speaker 2: guys who can get hot, Like Lindy Waters can get
Speaker 2: hot and make shots. He's a little bit of a
Speaker 2: movement shooter, right Like Jonathan Kamenka can go for twenty
Speaker 2: five thirty on any given night. Like Buddyhield obviously can
Speaker 2: get hot and make shots. Brandy Pozimski can get hot
Speaker 2: and he can make shots. What they don't have is
Speaker 2: a guy who's like kind of a more consistent night
Speaker 2: to night shot creator. And what scares me for them
Speaker 2: in the big picture is like I look around the
Speaker 2: league and I'm like, Okay, Jimmy Butler makes some sense,
Speaker 2: but I don't know if he's even got the juice
Speaker 2: in the tank. Left brandon Ingram I think might be
Speaker 2: a little bit too methodical and a little bit too
Speaker 2: much of a ball stopper to make work Zach Lavine,
Speaker 2: the salary and the concerns about his health. Is there
Speaker 2: even a player that you see as a realistic trade
Speaker 2: target that could move Golden State into that tier for you?
Speaker 1: I don't know that I have an answer to that. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: Jimmy is the answer to me. I think Jimmy, Jimmy
Speaker 1: can get ball stoppy, but he also feel like I'm
Speaker 1: on Seinfeld right now. Jimmy can get ball stoppy, but
Speaker 1: like Jimmy and do that. But I think that when
Speaker 1: he's within a scheme and within a flow like he's
Speaker 1: more than happy to play within that. Right, I don't
Speaker 1: know if Jimmy's gonna be available like the Miami Heater,
Speaker 1: a team that constantly tries to contend. The only reason
Speaker 1: that he would be potentially available is if they just decide,
Speaker 1: you know what, he's a free agent. He's not resigning this, that,
Speaker 1: and the other thing, right, and they're out of it
Speaker 1: by February. That feels unlikely to me. It's not impossible
Speaker 1: by any stretch, but like, I think they're gonna be
Speaker 1: competitive enough to where they're gonna feel like they can
Speaker 1: make a playoff run with Eric Bolstro with Jimmy Butler
Speaker 1: and give this team like one final Roadie and you know,
Speaker 1: chance at it with Jimmy and Bamcore. I don't know
Speaker 1: that it would be that expensive necessarily to go get
Speaker 1: Jimmy Butler for five months? Four months?
Speaker 2: Maybe would that changed it for you from just from
Speaker 2: the same point of matching salaries. From what I understand,
Speaker 2: it'd be like Wigans or no.
Speaker 1: I would still do it if I was them, You're
Speaker 1: getting Jimmy Butler, and like honestly with Wiggins, if you
Speaker 1: could parlay this great stretch of games into getting off
Speaker 1: of that content. But more than anything like getting off
Speaker 1: that contract, which this summer looked like it would be
Speaker 1: unmovable or like immovable whatever that word is. Uh, that
Speaker 1: is something I would probably do if I was them.
Speaker 1: I would have to think about that, like in terms
Speaker 1: of is that true or not, I'll have to I
Speaker 1: would guess that it is off the top of my head,
Speaker 1: but I'm sure that that's right now. Having like I'm
Speaker 1: trying to think like, could you do could you like
Speaker 1: Melton's deal, plus like a few other kind of things.
Speaker 1: But I'd have to really kind of dive into it,
Speaker 1: and you'd probably have to involve a third team as well.
Speaker 3: You might be able to a pretty tough fall off.
Speaker 2: Wiggins makes twenty six, but after Draymond, you got Melton
Speaker 2: at twelve, Peyton at nine, Kyle Anderson at nine, Buddy
Speaker 2: Heel at nine, Kevin Kevon Looney at eight, So like
Speaker 2: you could piece together deals, but you would give up
Speaker 2: a couple of your key role players. The way I
Speaker 2: put it on my show is like, I think it's
Speaker 2: a February decision. I think if you get to February
Speaker 2: and Wiggins is more or less the same player he's
Speaker 2: been for the last couple of years, and Jimmy Butler
Speaker 2: looks like he's got some juice but the Heat are
Speaker 2: floundering in the play in again in a terrible Eastern Conference,
Speaker 2: then you call him up and you see if you
Speaker 2: can't work something out and you try to make a
Speaker 2: run at it. But like, if Wiggins goes for twenty
Speaker 2: plus and two thirds of his games for the next
Speaker 2: two months, then I think you have to kind of
Speaker 2: approach it in a different way. But yeah, with Golden State,
Speaker 2: for me, like I think they're here. Here's where I'm at.
Speaker 2: With Golden State. I think that they are certain to
Speaker 2: finish above the play in as long as step stays
Speaker 2: healthy because of that floor that we talked so much
Speaker 2: about in terms of their perimeter, athleticism and scheme.
Speaker 3: But I don't take them.
Speaker 2: Seriously as like a top tier championship contending threat unless
Speaker 2: they get a legitimate number two next to Steph because again,
Speaker 2: every other team we're talking about just has so much
Speaker 2: more firepower at the top. It's like not even close.
Speaker 2: And so that's where I get concerned with Cleveland. I
Speaker 2: left that Celtics game way more like convinced that Boston
Speaker 2: was on another tier than so many others, Like there
Speaker 2: was a lot of stuff getting thrown out where it's like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: Darius Garland played a bad game and we were down
Speaker 2: all of our wings, and like, I want to be clear,
Speaker 2: I don't think Cleveland's fraudulent or anything like that. I
Speaker 2: think they're very clearly in that second tier of teams
Speaker 2: somewhere in there.
Speaker 3: But when I think about.
Speaker 2: Cleveland, like like when I watched that game, I felt
Speaker 2: like Boston every single time Cleveland made a push, they
Speaker 2: were able to immediately regain control, which to me is
Speaker 2: like when you see those games where it's like the
Speaker 2: team always gets close, but they can't get over the top.
Speaker 2: That to me is indicative of a trend where like
Speaker 2: the team is able to kind of like refocus, get
Speaker 2: the right shots, lock in on defense. Boston's defense has
Speaker 2: been spotty at times this season from a commitment standpoint,
Speaker 2: but then it's been like stifled, Like they had a
Speaker 2: third quarter stretch against Minnesota the other night that was terrifying,
Speaker 2: like like like where they completely put those dudes in jail.
Speaker 2: And like I think I I a lot of the
Speaker 2: stuff that I was concerned about, like, oh, they still
Speaker 2: have entry points, like Darius Garland is an easy pathway
Speaker 2: to get the calves in rotation. And yet you know what,
Speaker 2: they got a massive frontline, but as soon as those
Speaker 2: dudes start running around to shooters, it's not so massive
Speaker 2: on the front line anymore.
Speaker 3: And so like I.
Speaker 2: View Cleveland as a very well constructed team that has
Speaker 2: a very traditional built in their you know, kind of
Speaker 2: two big look in terms of like the lots of
Speaker 2: interior size, they're they're loading up in ball screens, all
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. The concern that I have is
Speaker 2: like a lot of this is just really good organization
Speaker 2: from Kenny Atkinson that is achieving a very high floor
Speaker 2: in the regular season, that's gonna beat all the bad
Speaker 2: teams in the league and certainly compete against the good
Speaker 2: teams in the league. But when it comes down to
Speaker 2: just the strict chess match of the half court battle
Speaker 2: against a team like Boston, I just don't think that
Speaker 2: they can get there. Is there are you higher on
Speaker 2: Cleveland than I am?
Speaker 1: I think I'm probably a little bit higher. I guess
Speaker 1: I'm like a little bit higher in theory because we
Speaker 1: haven't seen what I'm about to say, like bear itself
Speaker 1: out yet, because they haven't had Max Shruce. Max Strews
Speaker 1: is like a huge addition for this team that they're
Speaker 1: gonna get back because Max isn't just a shooter. He's
Speaker 1: somebody that can guard. He can guard one on one,
Speaker 1: he can close out onto shooters like he's not I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna sit here and tell you he's like some
Speaker 1: all defense guy or even like some incredible defender by
Speaker 1: any stretch but I think he's solid on that end
Speaker 1: in a way that to me, when I watched that
Speaker 1: game against Boston, it wasn't that they just had Garland
Speaker 1: on the court. It was that they had Garland and
Speaker 1: Niang or Garland and Merrill or Garland, and like Ty
Speaker 1: Jerome has actually been like pretty feisty this year defensively,
Speaker 1: but he's not super fast, right, He gets by with
Speaker 1: like really good hand eye coordination. He's being able to
Speaker 1: that way, and he's six foot five, right. So it
Speaker 1: was the fact that they had multiple entry points. If
Speaker 1: you give Struce to them, and you know, also a
Speaker 1: coor of cos vert boys guys being wide, I think
Speaker 1: it at least could potentially limit how badly they get
Speaker 1: hit when they're in rotation and when they have to
Speaker 1: fly around and try and scramble and recover. But that's
Speaker 1: just like theory for me right now, Like we haven't
Speaker 1: seen Max Struce, and I think he's the one that
Speaker 1: does it better than anybody because he allows you to
Speaker 1: play the math game with Cleveland. He allows you to
Speaker 1: smaller if you want to, with Evan Mobley at the five,
Speaker 1: which I think is the key for them being able
Speaker 1: to match up. They did that in this game. But
Speaker 1: the problem was, and I love George Nyang as a player.
Speaker 1: I think he's been really useful this year as a shooter,
Speaker 1: as a you know, just general smart basketball player that
Speaker 1: you can have on the court. He's just not fast
Speaker 1: enough for that situation. I actually thought they made a
Speaker 1: mistake not having Jared Allen.
Speaker 3: I thought that was the star.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like to me, like Jared Allen just is a
Speaker 1: better defender on the perimeter than George Nyang. But I
Speaker 1: think they wanted the shooting. I think they wanted the
Speaker 1: spacing that comes with that. So, you know whatever, Right,
Speaker 1: the problem for them is that I don't know how
Speaker 1: anybody stops Boston. Like we just talked through their offense, right,
Speaker 1: We're talking about all of this in theory. We're talking
Speaker 1: about all this like in practicality, you need Boston to
Speaker 1: have four games where they don't shoot well coinciding with
Speaker 1: four games where you do shoot well, and we can
Speaker 1: talk about the way that they get to these shots.
Speaker 1: We can talk about the way that you know, these
Speaker 1: things bear themselves out on the court from a matchup perspective.
Speaker 1: From you know, Boston's entire offense is predicated upon finding mismatches. Right,
Speaker 1: They're gonna bring Peyton Pritchard up to screen and get
Speaker 1: Darius Garland on Jason Tatum. Right, They're gonna bring you know,
Speaker 1: George n Yang up to screen and get him onto
Speaker 1: Jalen Brown. That's the whole thing that they're trying to do.
Speaker 1: And then they're gonna collapse and then they're gonna shoot
Speaker 1: it out and spray it out and try and shoot threes,
Speaker 1: or they're gonna dump it to Drew Holliday and the
Speaker 1: dunker spot. Whatever they're gonna do. They have different ways
Speaker 1: to get there, but that's ultimately their goal. Offensively, you
Speaker 1: need to have days where you shoot well and they
Speaker 1: shoot poorly. Sometimes the shots just don't go in right.
Speaker 1: Like that that can happen where that is a thing
Speaker 1: that happens. There is a luck factor to shooting on
Speaker 1: some level. I think that it is maybe not as
Speaker 1: big as the analytics people will say from time to time,
Speaker 1: but there's undeniably thing of a luck factor where the
Speaker 1: shot goes in or it doesn't go in right. You
Speaker 1: need four days where that happens and four days where
Speaker 1: on your end you're shooting it well against a group
Speaker 1: of perimative defenders with Drew Holliday, Derek White, Jalen Brown
Speaker 1: who's a really good on ball defender, Jason Tatum, who's
Speaker 1: a really good off ball defender, Al Horford who can
Speaker 1: switch out there because Sosporzingis who's an unbelievable rim protector.
Speaker 1: You need to do that against that team. That's what
Speaker 1: makes them such a difficult problem to solve. They beat
Speaker 1: you on the math game, they beat you on the
Speaker 1: matchups game. At the end of the day, Like, that's
Speaker 1: just an incredibly hard problem for anybody, let alone Cleveland.
Speaker 1: Cleveland would be clearly number two for me in the East.
Speaker 1: Like I don't think that I like them more than
Speaker 1: I like the Knicks by like a pretty real margin
Speaker 1: right now. But it's just a it's you know, if
Speaker 1: we're trying to compare them in terms of championship tiers
Speaker 1: and contenders, it's I have worries about just anybody being
Speaker 1: beating Boston at this point.
Speaker 2: Cleveland has the similar to what we talked about Golden State.
Speaker 3: They just they're just a really good NBA team.
Speaker 2: They're well coached, they've got good players, they're super deep,
Speaker 2: they have a bunch of different ways they can beat you.
Speaker 2: It's strictly their top end that I'm concerned about, strictly
Speaker 2: within the context of the other top tier teams in
Speaker 2: the league. New York is a team that right now
Speaker 2: I'm kind of considering beneath Cleveland, but I do think
Speaker 2: they're a team that in the long run I could
Speaker 2: view higher than Cleveland. New York is hitting an offensive
Speaker 2: level here in the last couple of weeks that's kind
Speaker 2: of terrifying. They've basically been operating around a one thirty
Speaker 2: offensive rate for the blast like for the last couple
Speaker 2: of weeks, and I thought that the game in Denver
Speaker 2: was such a classic example of what makes them so
Speaker 2: tough to guard, which is the unique combination of like
Speaker 2: a superstar that consistently draws two to the ball, and
Speaker 2: then a bunch of dudes are who are professional off
Speaker 2: ball scores, like the like Michale Bridges has been scoring
Speaker 2: off the ball since he was catching skip passes and
Speaker 2: pick and roll from Chris Paul, you know, four or
Speaker 2: five years ago, right like og Nanobi has turned into
Speaker 2: one of the most gifted Like It's kind of looks
Speaker 2: a little clunky sometimes, but he's such a gifted like
Speaker 2: he's such a gifted like shot creator when a dude's
Speaker 2: chasing him off the three point line. They have so
Speaker 2: many smart players in that in that four on three
Speaker 2: that inevitably comes from every single time Jalen Brunson brings
Speaker 2: the ball out the floor, that they're just impossible to guard.
Speaker 2: The thing that's bothering me is like they literally have
Speaker 2: not played more than one or two good games of
Speaker 2: defense this entire season. Even in their wins, they're not guarding,
Speaker 2: Like they had a win streak where they won, you know,
Speaker 2: four out of five, and like they were like out
Speaker 2: of like a one to nineteen defensive rating in those
Speaker 2: four wins against like Washington and like Brooklyn and like
Speaker 2: just some really limited teams. And I have been trying
Speaker 2: to investigate this Knicks defense problem for a while, and
Speaker 2: I'm so curious to hear your opinion on it because
Speaker 2: we haven't talked about it yet. But my initial impression
Speaker 2: is it's a combination of some effort, focus, energy stuff,
Speaker 2: like specifically some of their perimeter defenders are not having
Speaker 2: good perimeter defensive seasons. And then two, there's a little
Speaker 2: bit of like a schematic thing with TIBs that's driving
Speaker 2: me crazy, which is like they like still are not
Speaker 2: doing a ton of switching even when it's Og and
Speaker 2: McHale and Josh in the action, They're still doing a
Speaker 2: lot of overhelping and lingering that's completely unnecessary. There's some
Speaker 2: of it that's unavoidable. Like teams are hunting Brunson and
Speaker 2: Kat a lot, Like I want to be clear, that's
Speaker 2: how teams are looking to attack the Knicks, but its
Speaker 2: stands so much further to that because like my thing
Speaker 2: is like the effort and energy piece I think will
Speaker 2: improve in the long run, and that to me is
Speaker 2: the gap between Cleveland. Like Cleveland's practicing being a championship team.
Speaker 2: Say what you want about whether or not they actually are.
Speaker 2: They're practicing being a championship team that is a dead
Speaker 2: serious basketball team in their daily process. Nicks not so much.
Speaker 2: That's definitely something that they can clean up there. There's
Speaker 2: no doubt that like the that Cat and Jalen Brunson
Speaker 2: are gonna get attacked a great amount over the course
Speaker 2: of the rest of the season, but there's some self
Speaker 2: inflicted damage there. And their three point defense metrics are
Speaker 2: really bad. They're giving up a ton of volume on threes,
Speaker 2: they're giving up high percentage. They're giving up a lot
Speaker 2: of spot up opportunities. In general, they are not guarding
Speaker 2: the three point line well. And like for all to
Speaker 2: talk about cat as are improtector. Their paint defense has
Speaker 2: been pretty solid. So like, what is your takeaway on
Speaker 2: what's going wrong with the Knicks defense?
Speaker 1: So, yeah, so they have looked better recently. They have
Speaker 1: won five out of six here, and it's largely due
Speaker 1: to their offense. What I will say about their defense
Speaker 1: is that I think that in part it could get
Speaker 1: fixed a little bit with Mitchell Robinson coming back. So
Speaker 1: like let's look at the positive here first and just say, hey,
Speaker 1: a lot of what I'm going to say could get
Speaker 1: solved with Mitch coming back. A big issue for me
Speaker 1: personally is that Carl Towns is a bad drop coverage defender,
Speaker 1: and early in the season they basically played only drop coverage.
Speaker 1: Over the last like two weeks, I felt like I've
Speaker 1: seen them experiment a little bit more with like having
Speaker 1: him come out to the level a little bit higher.
Speaker 1: They will occasionally, not regularly, but like at times like
Speaker 1: I've seen them switch. You know, it could have just
Speaker 1: been like a peel switch situation, but like it felt
Speaker 1: like kind of an early peel switch to me, Like
Speaker 1: I will hear out that they are adjusting and experimenting,
Speaker 1: and that Tibbs is trying to find different answers. It
Speaker 1: hasn't gone well, Like, let's be clear about that too,
Speaker 1: it hasn't gone super great to this point, but I
Speaker 1: do think that they have at least tried to solve
Speaker 1: the problem. A Towns is a really really bad drop
Speaker 1: covers defender. I think that he doesn't really understand his angles,
Speaker 1: he doesn't really understand his depth. He often gets caught
Speaker 1: in no man's land where the roller will get behind
Speaker 1: him and he's not really actually contesting the guard, and
Speaker 1: the guard is able to just get to a pull
Speaker 1: up a little bit too easily or have that lob
Speaker 1: over the top of them. The second piece of it
Speaker 1: for me is you mentioned the perimeter defense. I actually
Speaker 1: think mckail bridge has been quite poor to this point defensively.
Speaker 1: In general, I think he has not been very good
Speaker 1: this season offensively. The shot is obviously a whole other conversation, but.
Speaker 2: Did you see how many times Jamal Murray left him
Speaker 2: completely wide open just not paying attention he just was
Speaker 2: missing every shot and then nuggets that could have been
Speaker 2: a worse blowout.
Speaker 1: Teams are going to do that with them, They're going
Speaker 1: to force him to shoot. Michael's a crazy worker, and
Speaker 1: I hope that he comes available here and like comes
Speaker 1: around and is able to shoot it. Like I've never
Speaker 1: heard anything, but like Michael Bridge is like an awesome
Speaker 1: human being. So like when I say what I'm about
Speaker 1: to say, like I don't say this with joy right.
Speaker 3: Being so negative. Sam, He's been.
Speaker 1: Really bad on defense. He has been the big issue
Speaker 1: for me is that he has been incapable. When you
Speaker 1: watched him get through screens when he was younger, he
Speaker 1: like kind of used that length and like slithered around
Speaker 1: them and like found different ways to get back into recovery.
Speaker 1: Right now, he's getting caught on screens for that extra
Speaker 1: split second. I feel like his hips aren't quite as
Speaker 1: flexible as they used to be when he was a
Speaker 1: little bit younger, and he's just getting caught trying to
Speaker 1: get up over the top. He's a guy that has
Speaker 1: super long limbs, super long arms, but also a really
Speaker 1: high waist, so when he tries to get around screens,
Speaker 1: he has to like really open up his hips and
Speaker 1: then like open around and like get back around the screen.
Speaker 1: And I think he's getting clipped on those a little
Speaker 1: bit more often than what we've seen in the past
Speaker 1: from him, and that's an issue for them right now.
Speaker 1: If he's not an elite level perimeter defender, if he
Speaker 1: is on it. If I'm being completely honest, I think
Speaker 1: he's been a blow average perimeter defender this season. I
Speaker 1: will hear out you know that he's been average or whatever,
Speaker 1: but I haven't really seen that personally.
Speaker 2: Let's assume they're not getting they're not getting against bad teams.
Speaker 3: They're not.
Speaker 1: But like if you want to say he'll get to average,
Speaker 1: I still think that's a problem for them because then
Speaker 1: you have two. You know, you have og Anobi, who's
Speaker 1: a great defender. You have Josh Hart, who's like an
Speaker 1: above average defender who works his balls off and like
Speaker 1: flies around the court. Right you have an average defender
Speaker 1: in Mikale, and then you know Cat and Jalen are
Speaker 1: just guys that teams will attack relentlessly. So if you
Speaker 1: don't have that extra great defender with those two, to me,
Speaker 1: it's a real problem. So the way that you phrased this.
Speaker 1: Whenever we decided, hey, what are we going to do?
Speaker 1: Are you higher or lower on these teams than you
Speaker 1: were in the preseason in terms of them contending for
Speaker 1: a title? My answer for the Knicks right now is
Speaker 1: actually lower, and in part it's because of Bridges, and
Speaker 1: I would really like to see him fix it, but
Speaker 1: he's not playing well on either end right now. And
Speaker 1: like that deal, when that deal got done, I was
Speaker 1: literally live like doing a mock draft show with Price,
Speaker 1: my podcast partner and A we were just like stunned
Speaker 1: and befuddled when that deal happened. And then we got
Speaker 1: the price, and I was like, man, I like McHale,
Speaker 1: and I knew that the price was going to be big,
Speaker 1: and I still thought that was too much to pay
Speaker 1: for him.
Speaker 2: Superstar prices. Man, they paid prices.
Speaker 1: They paid superstar price for a guy that is a
Speaker 1: top you know, when he's at his best, right a
Speaker 1: top forty player in the league in terms of like
Speaker 1: impacting winning, top fifty player in the league, whatever it is.
Speaker 1: And it was just too much, I thought. But you know,
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, they're going to get
Speaker 1: Mitchell back. We're going to see if that can really
Speaker 1: solve some of the issues that they have defensively because
Speaker 1: they can play him and drop and then you can
Speaker 1: get Kat back to play the role that he was
Speaker 1: in in Minnesota. It makes life a little bit easier,
Speaker 1: I think for everybody, and that could really go a
Speaker 1: long way towards solving their defense, and that could make
Speaker 1: me in the end a little bit higher on them.
Speaker 1: But given that Mitchell's injury situation seems a little bit
Speaker 1: questionable in terms of when he'll be back, what he
Speaker 1: will look like when he gets back, I am a
Speaker 1: little bit lower on them than I was in the preseason.
Speaker 1: I am.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting the cat.
Speaker 2: If Kat could just guard your kitchen, the post every
Speaker 2: single possession, I think he'd be considered an all defense guy. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: there's a lot more to guarding NBA teams. I'd like
Speaker 2: the idea of Mitchell Robinson just kind of like putting
Speaker 2: them into a lot more natural positions on on a
Speaker 2: lot of Like first of all, Mitch is like one
Speaker 2: of my favorite bigs in the league at getting to
Speaker 2: the level of screens and contesting pull up shooters. He
Speaker 2: just has such a natural gift for at the timing
Speaker 2: and he's got such quick.
Speaker 3: Leaping in long arms.
Speaker 2: And then I like Kat more as a low man
Speaker 2: than I do as a ball screen defender. And then
Speaker 2: the Josh Hart stuff, Like Josh Hart brings so much
Speaker 2: good to the table, but like and there's no doubt that,
Speaker 2: like from a spacing standpoint, there would be some complications
Speaker 2: with Mitch. It gets It's not as simple as it
Speaker 2: looks though, because one teams aren't guarding Josh Hart on
Speaker 2: the perimeter. I have seen so many teams this year
Speaker 2: put their center on Josh Hart for extended stretches and
Speaker 2: just sag him into the paint anyway. And I think
Speaker 2: that Mitch can bring back some of their offensive rebounding
Speaker 2: identity in a lot of ways too. He's just always
Speaker 2: been super super good at that. So, like with the Knicks,
Speaker 2: I think Cleveland is a clear number two right now,
Speaker 2: but I give them I wouldn't be surprised if I
Speaker 2: felt differently in two three months, if they just kind
Speaker 2: of figured some of that additional stuff out before we
Speaker 2: get out of here. I want to spend about ten
Speaker 2: to fifteen minutes on the middle tier in the Western Conference.
Speaker 2: So this is a total shit show. Sacramento's lost four
Speaker 2: in a row. They're now the twelve seed, but like
Speaker 2: you just know that they're going to have a stretch
Speaker 2: where they win eight out of nine games, and they've
Speaker 2: been devastated by injuries, and it's been deer and Fox
Speaker 2: just playing one on five every game. Even Portland scrappy
Speaker 2: and difficult. Like, as much as we talk trash about
Speaker 2: the Pelicans, they will get healthier at some point in
Speaker 2: the season and rip off some wins at some point.
Speaker 2: San Antonio is like it's the classic home road team,
Speaker 2: Like if there they are just a huge pain in
Speaker 2: the butt to beat in San Antonio, and that's just
Speaker 2: something that's going to keep them afloating the standings all season. Dallas,
Speaker 2: it's been the Lucas stuff and a lot of like
Speaker 2: kind of early burying of Klay Thompson, even though it
Speaker 2: has so much more to do with the fact that
Speaker 2: his ceiling kind of depends on Luca creating advantages for him,
Speaker 2: and so I'm not super concerned about playing the big picture.
Speaker 2: But like every team as it is shoes Denver's like
Speaker 2: atrociously bad. When Yokich is off the floor, the Suns
Speaker 2: can't do anything without Kevin Durant. The Clippers are actually
Speaker 2: like my one of my big success stories from the season.
Speaker 2: I was like, the Clippers are going to be a
Speaker 2: pain in the ass. I swear it's all these athletes.
Speaker 2: They're big in athletic called the Perimeter Memphis, same sort
Speaker 2: of thing with the home road splits. But like that,
Speaker 2: that tier in the West that is beyond Oklahoma City
Speaker 2: and Golden State is like ten teams deep, and I
Speaker 2: have no idea what to make of it. Where do
Speaker 2: you like, where are you feeling with that group? Do
Speaker 2: you have them all still in one tier? Are there
Speaker 2: a couple of teams that are separating themselves for you?
Speaker 2: How do you feel about that tier in the West
Speaker 2: right now?
Speaker 1: I mean, if you didn't mention the team that I
Speaker 1: think I might like you most outside of Denver.
Speaker 3: No, the Lakers, Oh, come on, I'm a Lakers.
Speaker 1: You just don't like. You just don't like the transition
Speaker 1: defense is the issue that'll get cleaned up. Like that
Speaker 1: will figure itself out. We've already started to see science
Speaker 1: and it's going to figure itself out. Look, I like
Speaker 1: Denver more than the Lakers, to be clear, Like I
Speaker 1: have Denver like.
Speaker 3: In the same year with the Lakers. But I do like.
Speaker 1: Denver more than the Lakers, to be clear, I was
Speaker 1: just surprised you didn't mention them. But with the Lakers particularly, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like with the Lakers particularly, they have this incredible offensive
Speaker 1: scheme that is working really, really well in terms of
Speaker 1: actualizing Anthony Davis. Honestly, I think a big thing that
Speaker 1: it's doing that people aren't really noticing is minimizing the
Speaker 1: wear and tear on Lebron throughout the regular season, and
Speaker 1: that's going to make a big difference, I think potentially
Speaker 1: come playoff time. They have Austin Reeves, who's been like
Speaker 1: hot and cold, it feels like, to start the season.
Speaker 1: They have Dalton connect To who looks like a real hit.
Speaker 1: He's a guy that kind of elevates their starting lineup.
Speaker 1: Like it's funny. They've moved him to the bench to
Speaker 1: bring Ruby back into the starting lineup, and I think
Speaker 1: that's a mistake because when I watch when I watch Dalton,
Speaker 1: I think he's a guy that elevates your best players,
Speaker 1: but probably isn't a guy yet that can go get
Speaker 1: his own or you know, be at his best with
Speaker 1: bench players. In the NBA, So if I was the Lakers,
Speaker 1: I would have Dalton in the starting lineup in order
Speaker 1: to maximize both his potential and the players around him. Offensively.
Speaker 1: I get the defensive concerns, but the thing about the
Speaker 1: Lakers is that when you look at all the other
Speaker 1: teams in the West, Denver included certainly, and this is
Speaker 1: removing Oklahoma City in my opinion, you look at, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, like Sacramento, who I think just probably doesn't
Speaker 1: have enough juice in terms of star power, and Minnesota,
Speaker 1: who you know, obviously sold a lot of their assets
Speaker 1: to go get Rudy Gobert, but you know, has some
Speaker 1: new assets that they could potentially move if they wanted to.
Speaker 1: You can look at the Clippers, who probably doesn't probably
Speaker 1: don't have enough juice. Unles Kauai is just like a superstar.
Speaker 1: Houston's interesting. Houston certainly has more trade capital than anybody
Speaker 1: in the league if they want to use it. But
Speaker 1: I think the Lakers have the most realistic stick avenues
Speaker 1: toward improving their roster that doesn't involve, like, for instance,
Speaker 1: Houston having to upend everything it does with a star trade. Right,
Speaker 1: the Lakers can solve their issues. They have three first
Speaker 1: round picks available to go out and get like a
Speaker 1: Bruce Brown. They have a bunch of tradable contracts Ruey, Gabe, Vincent,
Speaker 1: Jared Vanderbilt, like whoever you want to bring up across
Speaker 1: the board. They have all these deals that they can
Speaker 1: move for players right within their price range. Like if
Speaker 1: they can go get Bruce Brown. To me, that's the
Speaker 1: name that I've been thinking about. That just makes an
Speaker 1: immense amount of sense. We knew that they liked him.
Speaker 1: They tried to sign him before he signed that big
Speaker 1: balloon contract with the Indiana Pacers and then got traded
Speaker 1: to the Toronto Raptors in the Sea Yakham deal. If
Speaker 1: I remember correctly right, he is the kind of player
Speaker 1: that'd be perfect for them, like a perimeter defender who
Speaker 1: processes the game at a super high level, can guard
Speaker 1: one through four, perfect like crash bang player that would
Speaker 1: take some wearing's hair off of you know, some of
Speaker 1: their perimeter players and some of their wings, Like they
Speaker 1: can go do that. Like Toronto is not contending this year,
Speaker 1: they would be able to go get give up a
Speaker 1: first round pick for Bruce Brown and it would be fine.
Speaker 1: And on top of it, the sneaky thing with Bruce
Speaker 1: Brown is that because his contract is so big right now,
Speaker 1: he's not going to get that much on his next
Speaker 1: contract exactly. You have the early bird rights to be
Speaker 1: able to retain him as well. I think he's actually
Speaker 1: like a really sneaky valuable player on this trade market.
Speaker 1: That because he hasn't played much this season, if at all,
Speaker 1: if I can remember correctly, I haven't seen him play
Speaker 1: this year. At least, he's someone that he will be
Speaker 1: a very valuable trade target as long as he's healthy
Speaker 1: at some point in December January. Dorian Finney Smith is
Speaker 1: the name that makes a lot of like sense for
Speaker 1: the Lakers. I've said, like a Dorian Finney Smith, they
Speaker 1: are on sharp deal for the Lakers solves like almost
Speaker 1: all of their problems to me right now, backup center
Speaker 1: issue solves. You know, going to get a wing who
Speaker 1: can be switchable defensively. Phinney Smith has taken like a
Speaker 1: small step back defensively, but not an enormous one. But
Speaker 1: the guys that are on the market, they have the
Speaker 1: ability to go make moves to solve their issues. Is
Speaker 1: why I like them a lot, and they're already really good.
Speaker 1: Is the thing, like the Lakers are already what eleven
Speaker 1: and seven something like that, six, ten and six. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so they're in a really good position as it is,
Speaker 1: like Denver doesn't have the ability really to go out
Speaker 1: and improve. They've moved all their picks. They would have
Speaker 1: to give up like a Peyton Watson or a Christian
Speaker 1: Brown or a Julian Strather to go make a realistic upgrade,
Speaker 1: and that's not something they should really be in the
Speaker 1: market of doing in my opinion. You can look at
Speaker 1: I don't know Minnesota. Minnesota could go make a realistic upgrade,
Speaker 1: but more than anything, their season is going to come
Speaker 1: down to whether or not Anthony Edwards can make decisions
Speaker 1: and consistently make plays at the end, and I don't
Speaker 1: know if I trust that yet. They could also just
Speaker 1: like move off of the Julius Randall experiment and decide
Speaker 1: to do something totally different with that position, but that
Speaker 1: up ends their season in some way, and that would
Speaker 1: take some time to try and work through and figure out.
Speaker 1: So when I say that I really like the Lakers,
Speaker 1: I like the potential of what the Lakers can be
Speaker 1: after February, once they eventually inevitably make their move. I
Speaker 1: think that might be the team that I it's Denver
Speaker 1: because they have the best player in the world, they
Speaker 1: have Nicola Jokic. But outside of them in the West, like,
Speaker 1: I think the Lakers are the team even honestly, I
Speaker 1: like them more than Golden State in a playoff situation.
Speaker 1: I know that might be like sacrilege to hear right now,
Speaker 1: but I would buy them more in a playoff situation.
Speaker 1: They have the star power and they have the wherewithal
Speaker 1: to be able to go get go, do moves. Golden
Speaker 1: State does as well. Though, by the way, like that's
Speaker 1: the other thing that we, you know, have mentioned a
Speaker 1: little bit. Golden State to me is a you knowd'
Speaker 1: anthony Melton and Gary Payton in two first round pays
Speaker 1: for Cam Johnson move from being ahead of you know,
Speaker 1: all these teams potentially maybe not Denver because Denver is
Speaker 1: still really good. But yeah, like that that middle tier,
Speaker 1: like those three teams beyond Oklahoma City, Golden se Denver Lakers,
Speaker 1: Denver Lakers, those feel like the three teams to me
Speaker 1: that not only have the star power but also have
Speaker 1: the potential to get better and separate themselves from the
Speaker 1: rest of this group.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when I look at I think a lot of
Speaker 2: times when we hear people talk about issues with the Lakers,
Speaker 2: they conveniently gloss over the fact that every team in
Speaker 2: that tier has major issues, you know, like like like
Speaker 2: the Kings can't guard anybody.
Speaker 3: Minnesota.
Speaker 2: I literally hate that roster like it's it is like
Speaker 2: the player that I'm highest on in the next like
Speaker 2: generation of young basketball players.
Speaker 3: But I just hate that.
Speaker 2: Team's construct so much, and I think it plays directly
Speaker 2: into a lot of the issues that ant has had
Speaker 2: over the years. Don't get me started, San Antonio. Ever
Speaker 2: since I saw how good Stefan Castle has become, I'm
Speaker 2: like all in on them for the future. Like Stefan
Speaker 2: Castle has made me go from hating the Spurs core
Speaker 2: to like loving the Spurs core, which is like kind
Speaker 2: of been a funny transformation. I just think he I
Speaker 2: think he's like the two way guard. I'll even say
Speaker 2: I think Stefan Castle's are more interesting prospect than Denvin
Speaker 2: to sell in my opinion at this point.
Speaker 1: Because it's just and so but like not even a
Speaker 1: question to me.
Speaker 2: Denver, their bench is atrocious and Jamal Murray is like
Speaker 2: literally a shell of himself it's a real problem Phoenix.
Speaker 2: The Nurkic problem is real, and like I just think
Speaker 2: they're a little redundant in there in the way that
Speaker 2: they attack on offense.
Speaker 1: But by the way, with them another team that can't
Speaker 1: really solve their problems with the trade market, right they
Speaker 1: have one first round pick and really the only functionality
Speaker 1: that they have is like moving Grayson Allen for a
Speaker 1: center or moving Nurkic, which I don't think anybody's gonna
Speaker 1: take that contract. So I completely agree with you, Like
Speaker 1: there are worlds where you could maybe try and figure
Speaker 1: out how to make something like this function, But I
Speaker 1: think they're going to really struggle to improve their roster,
Speaker 1: even though I love what they have been so far
Speaker 1: with Kevin Durant.
Speaker 2: And and that's where Phoenix to me is kind of
Speaker 2: like I don't view them as a serious threat for
Speaker 2: that exact reason that you're explaining. Like all of these teams,
Speaker 2: whether it's Golden State, Lakers, Denver, I think is a
Speaker 2: little bit trapped, as you said, like they're they have
Speaker 2: the avenues with which to improve themselves. Houston, the offense
Speaker 2: and the half quarter is just too bad. I as
Speaker 2: good as they are as interesting they are. They're the
Speaker 2: regular season wins drug or not this season. We've seen
Speaker 2: that year in year out over the last the last
Speaker 2: few years. Right Clippers obviously like it's it's a James
Speaker 2: Harden and Norman Palall team. It's hard to take them
Speaker 2: really seriously. I want to zero in on the Lake
Speaker 2: for a second because I have a very complicated opinion
Speaker 2: on them. But before I do that, I would say
Speaker 2: that I think Golden State. I have Golden State above
Speaker 2: the First of all, if Golden State played the Lakers
Speaker 2: in a series tomorrow, I think Golden State would kick
Speaker 2: their ass. I as much as I as much as
Speaker 2: I like the firepower stuff with the Lakers, the mismatch
Speaker 2: on the perimeter is so dramatic between those two teams,
Speaker 2: I think it would be a disaster.
Speaker 1: So like and to your point that you've talked about
Speaker 1: a lot, the transition defense would be an enormous issue
Speaker 1: against Golden exactly. Oh, Mike, I agree with I agree
Speaker 1: with you on this that Golden State tomorrow in a
Speaker 1: seven game series would beat the Lakers.
Speaker 2: But like, I also agree with you that if you
Speaker 2: start to talk about who can win four series between
Speaker 2: those two teams, it gets a little more complicated because obviously,
Speaker 2: like the Lakers are a bad matchup with Golden State,
Speaker 2: but they are better matchup for other teams, right, So
Speaker 2: like it gets complicated in that regard. But like I
Speaker 2: think Golden State i'd put above the Lakers, Denver I'd
Speaker 2: certainly put above the Lakers, because I actually do Jamal
Speaker 2: is gonna get Like Jamal's not as bad as he's been,
Speaker 2: He's going to be better, in my opinion. Maybe I'm
Speaker 2: just being glass half full a little too much. You
Speaker 2: have a little smirk on your face, so maybe you
Speaker 2: feel otherwise.
Speaker 1: It's not that I think he's definitely not. It's just
Speaker 1: that I don't know, Like when it goes for like
Speaker 1: when it went for John Wall, it went, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like the injuries piled up and he
Speaker 1: just couldn't separate from anybody anymore. And Jamal has the
Speaker 1: shooting to fall back on. But sometimes for guys, it
Speaker 1: just goes. And I really hope that's not the case
Speaker 1: for Jamal. It's just that I don't I don't know
Speaker 1: if it is, is what I'm worried about.
Speaker 2: To your point, he hit a couple of jumpers against
Speaker 2: the knicks where it was a lot of wrist and
Speaker 2: like snap of the of the top of the shot
Speaker 2: where you can tell he was not getting a tonnel
Speaker 2: energy in his shot from the bottom, And some of
Speaker 2: these possessions where he's running around on the perimeter literally
Speaker 2: looks like me when I'm like playing when I've played
Speaker 2: seven or eight pickup games and I'm in the last
Speaker 2: game of the day and I'm kind of limping around
Speaker 2: the court. Like that's literally what what Jamal Murray looks
Speaker 2: like in some of these health defense possessions, like like
Speaker 2: where I'm just like, dude, this is an NBA game,
Speaker 2: Like you can't be this like like hob hobbling around,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. But like, I think Denver
Speaker 2: is a team that I put above them, and then
Speaker 2: the other team I'd put above the Lakers still at
Speaker 2: this point is Dallas. In Dallas I'm a little bit
Speaker 2: lower on because I do think the trade off for
Speaker 2: Derek Jones Junior did make them less athletic, But even
Speaker 2: within that context, they do have more athletes than a
Speaker 2: team like the Lakers does, so like and I do
Speaker 2: think Luca will play better in the long run. So
Speaker 2: like for me, I have the Lakers kind of sitting
Speaker 2: as like the fifth best team in the West. Now
Speaker 2: you look like you had a thought on Dallas, because
Speaker 2: I'm about to go off on the Lakers, So why
Speaker 2: don't you give me your thoughts on Dallas real quick?
Speaker 1: No, honestly, I don't. I mean you know that you
Speaker 1: know when we did contender rankings, like at the deadline
Speaker 1: last year, I Dallas was your team five or whatever,
Speaker 1: and like, I love that team and I think they're terrific,
Speaker 1: So I guess I would put them ahead of the
Speaker 1: Lake right now. They do have some flexibility, not a ton,
Speaker 1: but like enough. I mean, the other weird team that
Speaker 1: we haven't talked about before we get to the Lakers
Speaker 1: is Memphis. Like Memphis is so weird and bizarre, and
Speaker 1: we haven't seen them with like a full complement of
Speaker 1: players yet exactly. I mean, I don't know if you
Speaker 1: watched the Portland Memphis game last night and two nights
Speaker 1: ago for when this goes live, Jamran had like twenty
Speaker 1: two and eleven in twenty three minutes and was just
Speaker 1: so far and away the best player on the court
Speaker 1: that it was remarkable. And I know it's in Memphis,
Speaker 1: whatever I can't remember for some reason. I think it
Speaker 1: was in Portland, but like I'm bad at remembering if
Speaker 1: it's home or road or not.
Speaker 2: But it was in Memphis. And every Jamaran game in
Speaker 2: Memphis is like an event. He puts on a show
Speaker 2: every single game.
Speaker 1: His speed, his explosiveness, you saw like the he is.
Speaker 1: He and Trey Young to me are the two guards
Speaker 1: in the NBA where I don't understand how they understand
Speaker 1: angles when they make passes, Like both of them can
Speaker 1: throw logrible passes left hand, right hand from crazy angles
Speaker 1: from whatever position they're in on the court. Right. But
Speaker 1: those two guys particularly, I just watch them, and Ja
Speaker 1: throws these left handed whip cross court passes where I'm
Speaker 1: just like, I'm not even sure how you saw that,
Speaker 1: let alone how you executed that. Like Jokich can do
Speaker 1: this stuff, there are wings that can do this stuff
Speaker 1: as well. Like I'm not sitting here saying they're like
Speaker 1: the best two passers in the NBA. Necessarily they're probably
Speaker 1: in the top five, but like when I watch those two,
Speaker 1: I'm just like, holy shit. And Jaw is also like
Speaker 1: the most explosive athlete in the end. He is I say,
Speaker 1: Memphis just to say that, like, if Jaw is this good,
Speaker 1: and they get Desbane and they get Jaron Jackson playing
Speaker 1: a full compliment of games, they have all of these
Speaker 1: potential options that they can mix and match with against
Speaker 1: you in certain situation and matchups. They're interesting to me.
Speaker 1: They've been playing goofy ass like Santy al Dama, Jaren Jackson,
Speaker 1: Zach Edy lineups that are like three seven footers basically,
Speaker 1: and it's just really hard to score on them. And
Speaker 1: they still have like perimeter play because of Sancy and Jaren.
Speaker 1: So they're a weird team. But I also bring them
Speaker 1: up to say that they have their full compliment of
Speaker 1: picks to be able to move if they want to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I need to see more of Memphis now that
Speaker 2: Marcus Smartin Desmond Mayne are back. They're a team that
Speaker 2: I'm gonna be zeroing in on in the next couple
Speaker 2: of weeks because like, there's there's fun, Spunky, We're winning
Speaker 2: games at home with you know, Scottie Pippen Junior and
Speaker 2: Jay Huff and and all these kind of guys, and
Speaker 2: then there's like, okay, let's get a good look at
Speaker 2: like what you know, uh, joh Desmond Marcus Smart, They've
Speaker 2: been starting Jalen Wells. It's interesting to me because I
Speaker 2: actually liked the Smart Bane Jaw trio last year, but
Speaker 2: then like the with Jared Jackson and Edie and then
Speaker 2: also with Santi al Dama and Jared Jackson, is a smaller,
Speaker 2: like kind of more spacing. Look, I need to just
Speaker 2: see more of them. Their team that I their team
Speaker 2: that I just don't have a really strong opinion about
Speaker 2: at this point on.
Speaker 3: The Lakers front.
Speaker 2: They are there's so many things that I really like
Speaker 2: about this team. I do think JJ Reddick has done
Speaker 2: a good job of at least bringing a more serious
Speaker 2: approach on a daily basis. Yeah, I love some of
Speaker 2: the concepts that he's brought in offensively in the sense
Speaker 2: that last year they were very much like a Horns
Speaker 2: team and like a lot of like you're kind of
Speaker 2: like just stack and double drag and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: It was just a lot of like pretty standard horn
Speaker 2: stack double drag across the board. JJ's brought in the
Speaker 2: lebron and ad as a folkrum at the top of
Speaker 2: the key for off ball guard action stuff, which has
Speaker 2: been really really intriguing, and I've liked a lot of
Speaker 2: that stuff you mentioned using.
Speaker 1: Lebron by the way, they're getting there like in similar sets,
Speaker 1: like they still run a lot of horns actions, they
Speaker 1: still run a lot of double drag stuff. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think what has done is particularly weaponized his two best
Speaker 1: players in a different way than what Darvin Ham did
Speaker 1: and that's what makes him a much better coach.
Speaker 2: Frankly, and to your point, that's I think that's that
Speaker 2: and then giving a lot more of the guard reps
Speaker 2: to Austin has definitely played a part in d Low's
Speaker 2: struggles to this point in the season. He's just been really,
Speaker 2: really bad where it gets complicated for me and before
Speaker 2: I even get there, I want I want to focus
Speaker 2: in on the starting lineup for a second. Two like that,
Speaker 2: I think that Dalton connect has to start too, because one,
Speaker 2: he's just such a natural fit offensively, because he's an
Speaker 2: off ball score.
Speaker 3: I think this is such a.
Speaker 2: Valuable talent in the NBA, A guy that you can
Speaker 2: like realistically expect fifteen to twenty five points on any
Speaker 2: given night without really having to, Like, yeah, you'll drop
Speaker 2: stuff for him when he gets hot to kind of
Speaker 2: keep feeding the hot hand. But he can play within
Speaker 2: the low of the game right and the second piece
Speaker 2: of it. He's just a really good athlete, and this
Speaker 2: is the team that does and have athleticism on the perimeter,
Speaker 2: even though he has his defensive limitations. Just like him
Speaker 2: going after a contested rebound, or him running his lane
Speaker 2: in transition, or him high pointing some sort of loose
Speaker 2: ball just looks different than it does for the other
Speaker 2: Laker guards. Which is why I kind of lean more
Speaker 2: towards the trade you presented to me on the phone
Speaker 2: the other day, which is the Dorian Phinney Smith day.
Speaker 2: Were on sharp type of move because, like I originally
Speaker 2: was in the same spot where I was like Delo's
Speaker 2: the weak link here. You gotta go get a Bruce Brown.
Speaker 2: You gotta go get a you know, Derrek Jones junior
Speaker 2: or something like that to anchor the two, and then
Speaker 2: Ruy's your three. I am in the opposite spot now
Speaker 2: where I think this needs to be an Austin Dalton
Speaker 2: Lebron ad team and a traditional three and D guy
Speaker 2: that you can put on the other team's best perimeter
Speaker 2: player makes the most sense. That's where a Dorian Finney
Speaker 2: Smith kind of falls into that spot for me. The
Speaker 2: tricky part is is I don't like a ton of
Speaker 2: the other options around the league. I think he's the
Speaker 2: one guy that makes a lot of sense because like
Speaker 2: I look at it and I'm like, I kind of
Speaker 2: like Zire Williams too, But I just don't think he's
Speaker 2: a starter. I don't think he shoots the ball well enough.
Speaker 2: There's I like Josh Green as a guy that they
Speaker 2: could potentially go after, but then again, he plays the
Speaker 2: same position more or less as Dalton connect which kind
Speaker 2: of presents some issues. So like they're a little bit
Speaker 2: more limited in terms of the types of players that
Speaker 2: can go there. Like does Jeremy Grant want to come
Speaker 2: in and guard the other team's best player every game?
Speaker 2: Probably not, right, So, like there are some limitations there,
Speaker 2: But I do think Dalton at the two is the
Speaker 2: direction they need to go in the long run. My
Speaker 2: pessimism surrounding the Lakers entirely centers around the Perimmeter athleticism piece,
Speaker 2: and I just don't know if it's something they can
Speaker 2: fix within one season. They will defend better than they
Speaker 2: have to be clear, their defense is in shambles right
Speaker 2: now for a variety of different reasons, mostly centering around
Speaker 2: transition and the offensive glass. They're actually like a decent
Speaker 2: load up half court defense, Like they're okay in the
Speaker 2: decent half court load up situations. It's rebounding, and it
Speaker 2: is transition that is entirely perimeterive athletes. That's entirely perimeterive
Speaker 2: athletes like Lebron and ad are two of the best
Speaker 2: defensive rebounders of their generation, and they can't rebound like
Speaker 2: it is a perimeter athlete issue. And so like I'm
Speaker 2: with you in the sense that like if you told
Speaker 2: me like we were gonna be watching Oka see Los
Speaker 2: Angeles Lakers in the Western Conference Finals, I wouldn't be
Speaker 2: stunned because I do think that that stealing is in there.
Speaker 2: Anthony Davis is playing at a top five level this year.
Speaker 2: Lebron isn't even at the level I think he will
Speaker 2: be in the long run. Like there's a lot to
Speaker 2: be excited about there. It's just like I've had I've
Speaker 2: been Sam, I've been bitching about this perimeter athleticism thing
Speaker 2: with the Lakers for two years now, and Rob just
Speaker 2: hasn't done anything. So like we're where like it's hard
Speaker 2: for me to eve. It's like Jared Vanderbilt really interesting player,
Speaker 2: but like I haven't watched him play in a basketball
Speaker 2: game in so long that it's like, is theoretical to
Speaker 2: this point, he just.
Speaker 1: Doesn't get guarded either. That's the other thing, Like nobody
Speaker 1: so and so.
Speaker 2: So I just am concerned. I'm just concerned that Rob
Speaker 2: is thinking more like this team needs a third star,
Speaker 2: and like, I just don't think Rob is actually aware
Speaker 2: of the fact that the main weakness of this roster
Speaker 2: is that they've got a bunch of skill player on
Speaker 2: the perimeter that can't move or fight.
Speaker 1: It's it's funny that you say that you like the
Speaker 1: Dorian Finney Smith move more now because I'm kind of
Speaker 1: going the opposite way a little bit where I like
Speaker 1: that one first originally, probably because it was like my
Speaker 1: first thought and I was like anchored to it a
Speaker 1: little bit. But the more I think about it, the
Speaker 1: more I'm like, oh no, Like it's Bruce Brown's the
Speaker 1: one that makes more sense because he's the better athlete,
Speaker 1: he's the better defender on the perimeter. Like he's the
Speaker 1: guy that you can trust to go deal with like
Speaker 1: one s, twos and threes, like even with Denver right,
Speaker 1: like part of like a big part of his role
Speaker 1: was that he could play the four on offense, but
Speaker 1: could guard perimeter players on defense. And that's kind of
Speaker 1: what I think they need, Like they need somebody that
Speaker 1: will like deal with you know, the fours and can
Speaker 1: take on tough matchups or I can like just make
Speaker 1: high level passing reads and can do different things like that.
Speaker 1: But on offense, they want Dalton and you know, Austin
Speaker 1: to be the one and the two kind of like
Speaker 1: you said, on defense, having Bruce allows you to kind
Speaker 1: of play him at the two, the you know one,
Speaker 1: the three, whoever you have to shut down in terms
Speaker 1: of the matchup. He's just kind of a better defender,
Speaker 1: I think at this point than what Dorian Phinney Smith is.
Speaker 1: But what Phinney Smith adds that he doesn't is he's
Speaker 1: a fine defender at this point. Is he's longer, and
Speaker 1: he is also a real shooter, which Bruce unfortunately is
Speaker 1: not at this point. So I go back and forth
Speaker 1: on it. I think I lean a little bit more
Speaker 1: toward Bruce Brown now, but like it's a tricky it's
Speaker 1: a tricky conversation for sure, and they have to make
Speaker 1: the right decision because while I talk about their flexibility,
Speaker 1: they really have like one move that they can make
Speaker 1: without like totally selling the farm, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: If they don't make if they decide to like go
Speaker 1: all out and you know, go get somebody, they're giving
Speaker 1: up like three first rounders or whatever, and that doesn't
Speaker 1: feel like a great plan to me either. So I
Speaker 1: like what they can do. I like their flexibility. I
Speaker 1: think they are one player away. Realistically, you can slide
Speaker 1: D'Angelo Russell to the bench, You hopefully get Jared Vanderbilt
Speaker 1: back to be able to play defense in stretches for
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes the game. Right they can solve the backup
Speaker 1: center issue, like you can find backup centers for second
Speaker 1: round picks on the trade market. Uh, they're gonna have
Speaker 1: to find They can find answers, though, I think is
Speaker 1: why I like them, Like they can go They're not
Speaker 1: a great team right now, they're not, but they can
Speaker 1: find the answers.
Speaker 2: I think the Yeah, there, I'm with you in the
Speaker 2: sense that, like, I think that that trait is such
Speaker 2: a specifically valuable trait that even if you're great at
Speaker 2: everything else, it can undercut a team.
Speaker 3: And there's it's just.
Speaker 2: I'm of the opinion that this needs to be a
Speaker 2: kind of like a too pronged approach at the deadline,
Speaker 2: which is like, they need to find a starter that
Speaker 2: they can put at the two or the three, starting
Speaker 2: caliber two way player, but they also I also think
Speaker 2: they need to add some athletes for their bench.
Speaker 3: And here's the thing.
Speaker 2: If Jared Vanderbilt gets back and he gets to form
Speaker 2: and that works out, great, great.
Speaker 3: If Gabe Vince gets at least decent.
Speaker 2: At basketball at some point in the next couple of months,
Speaker 2: that would be great. If Max Christie settles down a
Speaker 2: little bit, then maybe that's fine. But it's just I
Speaker 2: think it's more likely than not that they need a
Speaker 2: couple of different moves, and I just am not sure
Speaker 2: that I trust Rob to get it done. So in
Speaker 2: a weird way, like if you asked me to rank
Speaker 2: contenders like I still have, I had them coming into
Speaker 2: the season, I think eight, and like, yeah, they're probably
Speaker 2: still right around there, seven or eight, right, Like I'm
Speaker 2: if I look out east, I'm looking at Boston and
Speaker 2: Cleveland clearly as a level above maybe the Knicks too.
Speaker 2: If I look out West, it's clearly okay. See Golden
Speaker 2: State Denver in Dallas, so like they're somewhere around seven
Speaker 2: or eight, but like here'd be them vaulting up.
Speaker 1: We talked about the Knicks, right, would you have the
Speaker 1: Knicks of the Lakers right now?
Speaker 3: Oh, man?
Speaker 1: Because the Knicks are a team that I think have
Speaker 1: had ahead of them coming into the year.
Speaker 2: I I here's the thing I think the Lake Akers. Oh,
Speaker 2: this is such a good question, Sam.
Speaker 1: And also neither of these teams right now can win
Speaker 1: a title. But the Knicks are going to get back
Speaker 1: Mitchell Robinson at some point, and the Lakers have moves
Speaker 1: to be able to make to go get players like it.
Speaker 2: I still take lebron Ady in a playoff series over
Speaker 2: a brunts and bridges kind of brunts and bridges an
Speaker 2: Andobe group. But like I that my basketball heart loves
Speaker 2: the Knicks perimeter athletes. But then again, it just hasn't
Speaker 2: manifested the way it needs to. So yeah, I think
Speaker 2: I lean very, very slightly Lakers. But there's a part
Speaker 2: of me that goes, that's stupid, Why would you say that?
Speaker 2: So I don't that, man, you might have you might
Speaker 2: have found the two teams that I'm most evenly opinionated
Speaker 2: about that's crazy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you.
Speaker 2: Told me, if you told me Lakers or Bucks right now,
Speaker 2: I'd be like Lakers ten times out of ten. You know,
Speaker 2: like if if you told me Lakers Suns right now,
Speaker 2: I'd say Lakers ten times out of ten. But like
Speaker 2: like the like the teams that are but yeah, the
Speaker 2: Knicks to me are like East.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would go.
Speaker 2: Utah was one of the worst losses of the season
Speaker 2: that any NBA team has had.
Speaker 1: That is accurate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, accurate, Sam, This show is exactly what I hoped
Speaker 2: it would be. I had kind of like a loose format.
Speaker 2: We ended up just completely ditching it and it was
Speaker 2: like you and I just talking hoops on the phone
Speaker 2: for some time. It was everything I hoped it would be.
Speaker 2: I sincerely appreciate you giving us your time. Can you
Speaker 2: tell our audience everything you've been working on as of Blake.
Speaker 1: Go to the Athletic Keep Me Employed over there. Go
Speaker 1: to the Game Theory podcast with Sam Fassini over on YouTube,
Speaker 1: over on Spotify, whatever podcast platform you listen to shows on.
Speaker 1: I've been doing things where I kind of steal Jason's
Speaker 1: thunder a little bit and go live after games and
Speaker 1: talk to some things that happen. We're calling it post
Speaker 1: game theory or game theory after dark. We don't really
Speaker 1: have a name for it. We just kind of talk
Speaker 1: about basketball.
Speaker 3: I like post game theory.
Speaker 1: I do too. I'm still trying to make make some
Speaker 1: different thoughts about it at this point and change minds
Speaker 1: within the fan base, because the fan base, it feels like,
Speaker 1: is sway in another way. Yeah, no, go over there,
Speaker 1: listen to the show, watch me breakdown tape by breakdown tape,
Speaker 1: you know, two or three times a night, or two
Speaker 1: or three times a week on games that happen over
Speaker 1: the course of the previous couple of days. So go
Speaker 1: there and come hang out.
Speaker 2: I talked to a lot of people about basketball on
Speaker 2: a daily basis, and whenever I have a basketball idea
Speaker 2: or something that I need to run by someone, Sam
Speaker 2: is the first person that I reach out to. He's
Speaker 2: a basketball mind that I respect a great deal. You
Speaker 2: guys need to get over to the Athletic and to
Speaker 2: the Game Theory podcast and support him. And I'm sure
Speaker 2: we'll be having you back on somewhere right around the
Speaker 2: All Star break to get into some stuff. And I
Speaker 2: owe you a show. So you got to let me
Speaker 2: know if you have some stuff that you want to
Speaker 2: talk about. But as always, we sincerely appreciate you guys
Speaker 2: for supporting us and for supporting the show. We will
Speaker 2: be back after Thanksgiving break. I was about to say
Speaker 2: tonight after Lakers Suns, but you guys are seeing this
Speaker 2: till Wednesday, so I will see you guys after Thanksgiving
Speaker 2: break for some power rankings on Monday.
Speaker 3: The volume What's up guys.
Speaker 2: As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting
Speaker 2: Hoops tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us
Speaker 2: if you guys would take a second and leave a
Speaker 2: rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys
Speaker 2: supporting us, but if you could take a minute to
Speaker 2: do that, I'd really appreciate it.