1 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, and Lower Hello, Welcome to the Naughty but 2 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: Night Show. It's a very special edition of the show today. 3 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: So we do our show Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. But 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: last week we did a special bonus show on Saturday. 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: Went across so well that I asked my friend Ben 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: would it come to join us today. Ben is a 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: gossip columnist, or maybe I should say a former gossip columnist, 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: working at Page six tm Z, even having his own 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: column at the New York Daily News. He's also worked 10 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: for The Fancy Plants New York Times. His new book 11 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: is called gate Crasher, How I Helped the Rich Become 12 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: Famous and Ruined the World. It's a great title. Betty there, Robert, Hello, Hello, Hellosa. 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: Congratulations on the book. It came out this week. I 14 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: can't believe I actually have a friend who has a 15 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: book been It's awfully impressive and if you're a fan 16 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: of nord a bit nice gossip and who isn't, I 17 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: think that gate Crasher will be really right up your alley. 18 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: And in fact, we get it one Robert Shooter. It 19 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: also pictures in the book. By the way, I've heard 20 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: about that. We'll get to that a little bit. Later 21 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: and so been let's jump in straight with the show, 22 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: because I've got so much to talk about. How did 23 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: all this start for you? How did you become one 24 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: of the premier gossip columnists and probably the media capital 25 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: of the world New York City? How did it start? 26 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: Completely by accident? I moved to New York City knowing nobody. 27 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: My first job was literally selling hot dogs on the 28 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: street on the Upper West Side. Uh. And my partner 29 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: of the time was a fashion guy, and he had 30 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: the idea that we should start a fashion gossip column 31 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: because it was the late nineties, the wild West of 32 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: the Internet. There was nothing like that on the Internet 33 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: at all. So we were the first fashion gossip columnists. Uh. 34 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: And we gate gate crash fashion parties at night, which 35 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: is why I named my later column gate Crasher now 36 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: this book, And so we got all the scoop and 37 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: we enjoyed me in find of supermodels and a win 38 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: tour and the excesses of that scene, and so much 39 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: to my surprise, I became known as a gossap columnist, 40 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: and Page six at the New York Post took me 41 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: on as a contributor, and then later I got a 42 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 1: column at their competitor of the Daily News. So turned 43 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 1: turned out I was good at it. You are good. 44 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,119 Speaker 1: What do you think makes you good at this? I 45 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: think that, as you know, Robert, the accent is people 46 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: just you could say pineapple upside downcake, and people think, oh, 47 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: that sounds so smart, you know. I think it's it's 48 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: it's observational. You know yourself as a leading columnist, that 49 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: you just have to keep your eyes and your ears open. 50 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: And really, most people, given half the chance we'll hang 51 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: themselves say that again, that's really good advice. I think 52 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: you gave it to me if you shut up for 53 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: long enough, and you can use this in your regular 54 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: life too. You don't have to be here gossip colories 55 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: if you shut up, which I find quite hard to do. 56 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: But if you do shut up, people tell you everything. 57 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: And of course one of the keys is that in 58 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: New York City, how one becomes practice as gossip is 59 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: that you go to a lot of parties, although not 60 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: currently maybe even remember parties, and anytime the alcohol is flowing, 61 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: the tongues get loose, right, right, It's such a fun 62 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: world to be in. Why did you why did you know? 63 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: Why did you end? Why did you stop? Doing so. 64 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 1: I did have a lot of fun, uh And it 65 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: was really interesting way to, especially as a foreigner, to 66 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,679 Speaker 1: experience American culture, this very glitsy world of film premiers 67 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: in Hollywood, stars and the clueless and wealthy. And I 68 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: had a problem. I had an editor at the Daily 69 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: News who whose ethics I question. And you know, there's 70 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: there's a longstanding tradition in tabloid and other media beating 71 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: up a story. You know, you take a story which 72 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: maybe not so salacious, but you because you have to 73 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: sell it to the readers, so you make it seem 74 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: like a lot bigger than it is. And I think 75 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: that and that that's fair enough. Many journalists do that, 76 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: especially gossip reporters. But I felt someone that there was 77 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: someone in a position of power who I thought was 78 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: crossing the line and what was ethical. And I knew 79 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: that if I did that, it would be my name, 80 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: that would be mud and you know, not this person. 81 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: So I got out of that. I did dip my 82 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: toe back into gossip when TMZ Out of the Blue 83 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: offered me the position of managing editor in Los Angeles, 84 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: So I did. I did jump back into into the 85 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: gossip arena. Uh for for a few months to do that, 86 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: and that was an interesting experience. But again after that, 87 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: I was happy to leave gossip. Do you miss it 88 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: a tool pen? Or you still get invited to the parties? 89 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: We will when the parties come back, But do you 90 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: miss it at all? Well? Sometimes, I for the last 91 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: two years before COVID hit New York City, I was 92 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: the social columnist for the New York Times, so I 93 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: would do two week events a week for that, and 94 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: I did enjoy that. So I certainly enjoy observing and 95 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: commenting on the habits of the rich and famous. Currently, 96 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: I'm the editor in chief of Avenue Magazine, which is 97 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: an election ratulations. It's a long history magazine. It's been 98 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: around for a long timing. You've just taken. But that 99 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: must be fun. It is a lot of fun. Yes, 100 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 1: of course, we live in remarkable times, so the events 101 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: that we all enjoy going to when no longer happening. Uh, 102 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: And people have their wings clips, so there aren't the 103 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: excesses that are fund to observe. But we do hope 104 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: that by the four things will move back to normal. 105 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: What happened to the fashion business? So when you started 106 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: doing this bend and you were blogging before Paris Hilton, 107 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: Perez Hilton, myself and lots of others. You were one 108 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: of the first out there that fashion world was at 109 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: the peak of its sort of extravagance. I worked for 110 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: Naomi Campbell for a while, so I knew the fashion 111 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: world world through her. There was a time when supermodels, 112 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: we forget this, they were the biggest celebrities in the world. 113 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: They were like the dinosaurs, like they devoured everything around them. 114 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: They were the superstars. How did all that change? Sure, 115 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: that's true. I mean the nineties saw a confluence with 116 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: a number of different trends. The sort of glamors on 117 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: very athletic, great looking supermodels became popular. They were often 118 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: in mu Seek videos on MTV, So that was the 119 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: fact that their popularity. Uh, and a lot of the 120 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 1: girls represented this new thing called globalization that was coming in. 121 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: So someone like n Me, who was you know, of 122 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: Caribbean stock and an English girl, um represented this combination 123 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: of cultures that that was becoming more common in the nineties. 124 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: And she just seems so thrillingly modern. No one had 125 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: seen anyone like that know Me before, and in my 126 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: personal opinion, she she's the best model who has ever lived, 127 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: because she does editor. It's a it's a real talent. 128 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: So you didn't just turn up and look pretty like 129 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: she really knows how to had it had talented so 130 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: and of course it was also the peak of fashion advertising, 131 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 1: so the magazines were so flushed with money that everyone 132 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: was a celebrity. That the editors like Anna Winter became 133 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: a celebrity, the designers like the SARChI, there were celebrities. 134 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: The models were celebrities. And the first death knell of 135 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: that I think, you know, the biggest fashion party that 136 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: I have went to because in their heyday in New York, 137 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: Fashion Week got as many celebrities to the shows as 138 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: a Hollywood premier. It was like the Oscars going to 139 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: a big show in New York. There could be two 140 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: dozen famous stars in any fashion show. And the biggest 141 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: party I went to was Mark Jacobs, uh, you know 142 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: when when he launched his Daisy fragrance and there were 143 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: people like Sara, Jessica Parker and Donald and Milannia were 144 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: there and just a lot of big nan actors, and 145 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: it was he spent extra money on that particular show 146 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: because he was launching a fragrance and that date was 147 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: September tenth, two thousand and one, and once, of course, 148 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: the next day the Twin Towers came down, and there 149 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: was never a party like that in the fashion world 150 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: ever again. And other factors like, for example, the Internet 151 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: taking away print advertising meant the magazines has smaller budgets, 152 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: so they weren't the extravagant fashion shoots. And I've never 153 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: actually thought about it in those terms. It's following the money. 154 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,239 Speaker 1: Like in All the President's Men, there was so much 155 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: money in as magazines because it costs sixty seventy maybe 156 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: a hundred thousand dollars to buy a page of advertising, 157 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: so they just had the cash to do this. Barbara 158 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: Walters once said to me, she said that whoever runs 159 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: the gossip pages in the newspaper basically run the paper. 160 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: Did you agree? I do you know, in a media 161 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,679 Speaker 1: ecosystem like New York City where there are many different 162 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: kind of magazines and TV shows and newspapers centered, the 163 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: first thing that everyone in that industry does in the 164 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: mornings read the gossip columns because if you're if you're 165 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: a TV show producer on a morning show, you want 166 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: to know who you need to book the next day. 167 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: They're probably in the gossip columns. Um, even the serious 168 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: magazines need to know who's hot, who's trending. Magazine editors 169 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: would look at the columns to see who they might 170 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: consider for their next cover. Start, and it all starts 171 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: for the gossips. It starts if the gossips gork at 172 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 1: this site that doesn't exist anymore, but it was a 173 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: terrific sign. It's tagline was Today's Yeah, today's gossip is 174 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: tomorrow's news, and I think that's really true. Explain to everybody, though, 175 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: how does it work? How does the celebrity get into 176 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: the gossip pages? Well, miss behavior is a preferred means. 177 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: We hope that we catch them doing something very embarrassing. 178 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: But but of course if they want to be singing 179 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: in a somewhat better light, it's very useful to hire 180 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: a publicist, and a publicist might stage certain events. You know, 181 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 1: you might have to take after lunch. Um, you might 182 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: make sure your client was flattering ly photographed or in 183 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: a cute outfit on the streets of soho oh, a 184 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: good outfit always, it always works. In the summer, Bethany 185 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 1: Frankel does this. They go to the beach and change 186 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: bikinis full times, and the paparazzi then can sell four 187 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: different pictures of them and it looks like they've been 188 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: at the beach or summer where they really do it 189 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: in like an hour. So changing clothes works, nor did. 190 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: It's these dilemma celebrities have there because they do want 191 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: to be in the columns. When I was working for 192 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: different stars, they all read the column on the first 193 00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: thing they do when they wake up. They want to 194 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: be in them, but they sort of want to dictate 195 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: what you write about. Sure, and that's the twist. That's 196 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: the game. You have to play the push in the pool. 197 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: They want to be in them, but they want you 198 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: to say nice things. But really the only reason you 199 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: should be in the gossip page is if you've done 200 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: something naughty. So it's a little bit of back and forth. 201 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: How does that work? Bend? Well? You know, as they say, 202 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: gossip is just what people don't want you to know. 203 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: Every everything else as public relations. Um so, so sometimes 204 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: the publicist will give you something really juicy about someone 205 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: who's not their client, any quick proquet in exchange for 206 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: a flattering item about their clients somewhere else. Um, you 207 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: actually Robert were involved in what I think is one 208 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 1: of the most significant stories of the last twenty years 209 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: in terms of shaping the culture. When you were working 210 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: with Paris Hilton and the New York Times are a 211 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: wonderfully flattering story about her in two thousand and four. 212 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: I think it was called Paris Ink, and it really 213 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: it was about how Paris was making the point that 214 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: she wasn't just some bimbo who was who was lucking 215 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: into everything, but in fact, and she was a friend 216 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: and the like, and she was an effect to see 217 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: you of a multimillion dollar business called Paris Hilton, and 218 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: that she made very mindful decisions. And I think that 219 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: the story was hugely influential and how people perceived her. Yeah, 220 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: I think those type of stories, we call them tone 221 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: setting stories when a celebrity has a story out there 222 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: that changes everything for them. And I think a lot 223 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: of celebrities do this with big, glossy magazine covers. If 224 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: they want to get a big endorsement deal from a 225 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: cosmetic company, you try to get a cover of the 226 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: Who Got w and then the cosmetic company then thinks 227 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: you're gorgeous and fabulous and sophisticated. With Paris we were 228 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: trying to get her away from people thinking she was 229 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: not very smart, which she clearly is. She's not She's 230 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: not a dummy, and so I know, I was actually 231 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,599 Speaker 1: quite surprised that I pulled it off myself, but that 232 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: Ni hook Times story was pretty wild. How much has 233 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: Paris and the Kim changed the world of gossip and 234 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: the world in general? Ben, Well, you know there should 235 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: be cultural and technological change just which have happened since 236 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: the turn of the twentieth century. The first one was 237 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: reality television, which I do think made a measurable dint 238 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: in how people behaved, especially young people. Um. I think 239 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: that they decided to perceive a value in drama and 240 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: playing up for attention. And then ten years after the 241 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: birth of reality TV, you've got social media, which doubled 242 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 1: down on the same I think not particularly useful impulse. 243 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: Uh And of course never never one's their own brand. 244 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: Now you don't need a reality television crew following you 245 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: around because you have that in your own pocket. And 246 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: what younger people may not appreciate is that Paris Hilton 247 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,359 Speaker 1: originated many of these behaviors, and she was a legitimately 248 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: wealthy person who performed being rich in a very you know, 249 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: over the top way. Um. I believe that she was 250 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: heavily influenced by rap culture in her her esthetic choices. 251 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: So she was living with an important artistic movement there. 252 00:12:55,559 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 1: And Um, Kim Kardashian copied every move in her Playboo 253 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: and I've arguably exceeded her mentor yeah, I am. I 254 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: think that a lot of people don't realize Paris invented Kim. 255 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: When I was working with Paris, she worked really hard. 256 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: The myth on Paris that she wants out there is 257 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: that she just floats into a situation and it's just 258 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: outrageously wonderful. She used to work really hard behind the 259 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: scenes to be terrific for ten or fifteen minutes at 260 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: a party or a club, and I know a lot 261 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: of work went into it. And also to the Paris 262 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: that you would meet in the day to have a 263 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: business meeting with. Didn't have the blue contacts and she 264 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: had dark eyes. She didn't talk in that squeaky, squeaky 265 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: your heart voice. She spoke like this, She spoke really. 266 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: I was really impressed with film working with her. She 267 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: has a work ethic, she knew what she was doing, 268 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: and she really sort of invented this format. And I 269 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: don't think she's jealous of Kim. I think she's quite 270 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: happy now she's made enough money. Let Kim sort of 271 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: carry on with that. And particularly now the housewives have 272 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: sort of taken over too. Is it because they're so 273 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: accessible ben Like as when I have to fill my 274 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: column on my website and I have no news. I 275 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: can't call Julia Robert, but I can get Jill Zarin 276 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,719 Speaker 1: on the phone, so like it's sort of into that. 277 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: Do you think they movie star celebrities are jealous that 278 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: these new sort of reality stars have taken a bit 279 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: of their funder well, as you know, I think, as 280 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: someone who's covered the business from both sides, um, it 281 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: attracts a very uh more frankly an unstable personality, someone 282 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: who is very insecure but at the same time often 283 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: a narcissist, and that that volatile combination of neediness but 284 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: also jealousy. I think that probably movie stars may resent 285 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: reality stars because they are considered much lower caliber talents. 286 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: I don't think that should, but but they may. Um 287 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: And of course, if if you're a reality so reality 288 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: stars are now influences really are kind of the bottom 289 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: feeders of the culture, and it attracts a really shameless 290 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: personality who are prepared to feud and pull each other's 291 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: weaves off and flip tables on camera just to compete 292 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: in the attention economy. I couldn't do it. Could you 293 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: offered the reality show? I could? I couldn't. I mean, 294 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: as as much as I enjoyed the spotlight and being ridiculous, 295 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: I'm very aware of how ridiculous I am. I don't 296 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: know about that reality business though, and meeting them off 297 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: the shows too. Generally there's always the exception they're not 298 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: very nice people. No, I don't. I'm not friends with them. 299 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: I'm really not This wanted two. I do like and know, 300 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: I've got their phone numbers, but I'm not really friends 301 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: with them. Then are you with with anyone? Oh? Absolutely not. 302 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: I don't think I had a single selfing with the 303 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: celebrity in twenty years of doing this. But remember, we're 304 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: only tools for them. I mean, they don't really want 305 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: to be friends with us. They want to use us 306 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: for how we can promote them. And are you aware 307 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: of that? So when people were nice to you, and 308 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: I've seen it. I've been to events where people come 309 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: over to you and chatt and hello, big smiles on 310 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: your face. You're aware that after your column inches it 311 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: sounds a little dirty. I didn't mean it to sound 312 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: like that, but you know what I mean, a good grief. 313 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: Well I didn't. I mean, I wasn't seeking friendships with them. 314 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: I mean, to me, they were pray essentially. But you know, 315 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: I think we won't say any names, but there are 316 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: people that we know around the scene who really just 317 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: desperately wanted to be in that in that scene, and 318 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: their definition of success is being pals with these people. 319 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: And that's that's the selfie culture, which I know you 320 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: don't indulge in either, But yeah, I don't. I don't 321 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: get it. I mean I sort of the first time 322 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: you see them. It's awfully exciting to see somebody like 323 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: Teresa Judici. When I first met her, oh I staring 324 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: at about eyes with the biggest saucers. I can't believe it, 325 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: But I don't really want to be friends with her. Now, 326 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: you do tell a story in the book that that 327 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: I think is so sweet. There are certain two celebrities 328 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: I think they're twins who actually stole your heart, even you. 329 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: You mean old devil. They melted your heart. Who are 330 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: the Alston Twins? I have to say, in the whole 331 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: celebrity barnyard, the only people I ever had sympathy for 332 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: the Alston twins because number one they became so famous 333 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: in their teenage is that I think it actually threatened 334 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: their mental health because no one would leave them alone. 335 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: But they never opted into this. They were literally cast 336 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: as babies in the show Full House, which made them famous. 337 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: Um and then there they were managed by older people 338 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: and they did a number of you know, very g 339 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: rated TV movies as they got older. At no point 340 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: where they really ever given a choice. Maybe when they 341 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 1: by the time they got to college age, I think 342 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: they realized they were ready to step away and reinvent, 343 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: but they were hounded by the press, you know, including 344 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: me frankly, who were and then you know, they did 345 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: a few naughty things that we reported on. But those 346 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: two women never opted in. You know, they were brought 347 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: up in the business, and to their credit, when they 348 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: became old enough to make their own decisions, they became 349 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: incredibly talented fashion designers. So I just had nothing with 350 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: respect and honor. Who drives you crazy? Who's your least 351 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: favorite good lord, um, you know awful. Not the biggest stars, 352 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: but people like Janice Dickinson remember her like she was God. 353 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 1: She would just never leave you, like a company's love. 354 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: Used to call up and talk for hours. And don't 355 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: get me wrong, it was kind of fun because she 356 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: was such such an appealing nut job. But it's like, 357 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: oh God, put the phone down, really, girl. I have 358 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: to ask you that we're running out of time a 359 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: little bit, but I have to ask you too about 360 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: Donald Trump. Were not a political show. We don't get 361 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: involved in that. But Donald Trump was a major celebrity 362 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: here in New York City. You've met him many times. 363 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: I think you went to didn't you get to one 364 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: of his wive's wedding? I went to Havannah's last wedding 365 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: at marl Lao, Yes, and Donald was telling did he 366 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: give her away? Or the sudden sons gave her away? Um? 367 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: And the funny I mean Donald and Havana actually stayed close. 368 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: I think when Marila Maples, who broke up that marriage, 369 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 1: was still married to Donald, that was tough. But once 370 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 1: she was out of the picture, you know, because they 371 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: were good parents for those kids. I think now that 372 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 1: the kids are too controversial for anyone to like them. 373 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 1: But before Donald became president, they were quite well liked 374 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: in New York City, especially Avanka, who was just very intelligent, 375 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: funny woman. But at the time she people liked her. 376 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: Uh and Um. The funny thing about that wedding at 377 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: Mara Lago, Milania was Barren had just been born. Milania 378 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: was upstairs like a Disney villainais um. Donald was watching 379 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: everything from the terrace with his arms crossed. Is as 380 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: Ivanna married, the sky called Rossano, who was you know, 381 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: Italian of questionable background, and there had been a domestic 382 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: disturbance at the house just before they got married, and 383 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: the police were called and Rosanna was cuffed. I don't 384 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 1: know what happened, but Rosanno was was in handcuffs and 385 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: then he was unconfident and they smoothed it over and 386 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: the wedding went ahead. But Don Jr. Who gave away 387 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: his mother, threatened to kill him in his in his speech, 388 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: he delivered the father of the Bride speech, and he 389 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: told Rosano, and I presume he was referring to to 390 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: whatever the domestic disturbance was about. That he reminded his 391 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 1: new stepfather that the Trump family was in construction. He 392 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: had a forty five and a shuttle, and he knew 393 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: how to lose. He knew how to lose people. So 394 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: happy wedding mommy. Congratulations, all lift your gas and the 395 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: terms we should lift our glasses. Ben, congratulations, gate Crasher, 396 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: how I helped the rich become famous and ruined the world. 397 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: It's all your fault, Ben Wintickum, It's all your fault. Congratulations. 398 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: Are you thrilled? Does it feel different now you're an author? 399 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: I don't know how different it feels, but I'm very 400 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: glad the book was out. It was two years coming. 401 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: And it's a lot of work, isn't it. It's an 402 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: enormous amount of work to do these books. I know 403 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: so many people, including myself, who think I'd love to 404 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: have a book, and then you have to sit down 405 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: and write the damn thing. That's that's it's it's a 406 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 1: lot of work. Congratulations, Everybody pick up a copy. It's 407 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: full of juicy, juicy gossip. We didn't give too much 408 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: away hopefully on the show. Lots of celebrities that you 409 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: know and love behind the scenes, and lots of scoop 410 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: too on what it's actually like to be a fabulous 411 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: goss economists, which Ben you will always be. Thank you, 412 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: my friend. It's not even nice with