WEBVTT - The Importance of Contact Tracing and Testing 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.720 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.320 Jason Kelly. We're right here every day bringing you the 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:11.160 latest news from the world's of business and finance, plus technology, politics, economics, 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.280 all harnessing the power of Business Week reporters and editors, 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.439 and of course Carol that's part of a team of 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.439 twenty seven hundred journalists and analysts more than a hundred 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.280 and twenty countries and Jason. You can download Bloomberg Business 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.239 Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, bl Bloomberg dot com. You can 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.640 also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.560 on Bloomberg Radio every weekday, or watch us on YouTube 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:36.600 by searching Bloomberg Global News. We recently talked with the 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:38.960 head of north Will Health. It's a massive hospital and 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:41.080 healthcare system in New York State. They have seen the 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:44.680 strains and stresses and really the devastating impact on patients 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:47.720 brought on by COVID nineteen. Back with us and with us, 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:50.920 I should say, is Bruce Farber, chief of Infectious Diseases 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:53.920 at Northwell Health, on the phone from Inhasset, New York. 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.319 Dr Farber, it is really great to have you here 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:59.280 with us. UM we've learned a lot by talking to 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:01.920 the head of your hospital system. Tell us a little 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:03.720 a little bit about kind of where we are, because 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.319 it's an interesting week where we're seeing more reopening, but 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:11.120 yet we're hearing of, you know, cases now again in 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:13.479 South Korea in places that have kind of been held 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:15.640 up as a gold standard in terms of dealing with 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.160 the virus. So what's important about what we need to 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:23.280 know on this Monday, May eleven? Yeah, I agree, it's Um, 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.280 it's a very funny time in New York. The number 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:30.440 of new cases is down significantly, deaths or down significantly. 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:35.199 At our hospital system. We're almost under a thousand hospitalized 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:38.200 people with COVID from a peak of four thousand, So 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:41.640 that's a huge decrease from what it was and that's 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:45.240 all very good news. Um. Yeah, I still, and I 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:47.720 think many people still think that this is going to 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:50.600 be a game of whack a mole um and that 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:53.760 we're clearly not out of the woods. We are making 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:57.760 contingency plans for what the fall might look like when 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:02.080 flu comes back. At the same time, I still think 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:06.320 that there's not enough herd immunity in the community or 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:08.600 in the world to think that this is going to 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:12.320 be over any time in the foreseeable future without a vaccine, 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.920 and that's not around the corner. And so Dr Farward 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:19.600 talked to us, if you, if you will for a 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.600 minute more about the New York City area. I mean, 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:28.200 this is where you live and work. UM. I mentioned 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:31.240 UH ear last week when we were talking about North Well, 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:34.400 I'm very fortunate to live next to Phelps Hospital here 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:36.680 in Westchester, which I believe is part of your UH 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:39.600 system and certainly have taken advantage of your good care 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:44.480 over the years. It has been incredibly intense in the 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.320 Tri state area. What do we know about the state 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:49.840 of this UH here in the New York City area 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:54.040 right now? Well, like I said, things are much better 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.919 and the hospital systems are now functioning. But remember, it's 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:00.440 going to take three things for us to really be 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:04.640 able to open up more than UM than we are now. 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:07.600 And that's going to be one a dramatic decrease in 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:10.880 the number of new cases. And based on the state's guidance, 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:14.320 I think we basically still have to have them roughly 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.320 about to roughly about two to three hundred per day 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:21.160 in the entire New York City area. UH that's one thing. 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:24.680 The second thing is we need more testing. Any opening 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:28.400 up this contingent on us massively increasing our testing. And 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:32.440 although testing has increased log rhythmically in the last three weeks, 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.080 it's going to have to go up even more. We're 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:38.880 talking about testing all admissions to the hospitals, doing surveillance, 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:42.400 testing and people in the hospitals, testing people in nursing homes, 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:46.720 testing people in other environments, going for elective surgery, going 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:52.720 for procedures, going for cancer chemotherapy, testing employees, um. So 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:55.400 the testing has to increase. And then the third component, 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.839 which New York is not ready to do, although they're 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:02.440 talking about it, is contact tracing because, after all, to 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.320 really open up we need to have less cases, we 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.200 need to have frequent testing. And thirdly, we need to 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:12.680 have contact tracing so that when a mini outbreak breaks out, 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.560 if you will, we can contain it quickly before it 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:19.240 turns into a massive hotspot. Dr Farvar helped me out 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:21.479 because I feel like we've been talking about testing and 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:23.920 the need for it, and I feel like if there's 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.440 one thing everybody agrees is testing and then ultimately tracing 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:29.800 in order to really reopen up this economy, We've been 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:32.600 doing this for several weeks now, and yet we're still 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.520 talking about there's not enough tests out there. What's holding 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.479 it back? What's the problem right now? There's several things. 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:41.000 Number one is the supply chain is just not there. 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:44.400 I mean, you need certain re agents, you need certain 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:48.560 swabs UM, and they're really not enough of them around 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:54.560 despite the the reassurances from from some politicians, they're not there. 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.359 You just can't get them. Secondly, a lot of people 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.360 are dependent on point of care. Remember there's base sically 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.840 two forms of these tests occurring. One is point of 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.479 care that's a rapid test that can be done in 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:09.640 a relatively in a two to three hour period of time. 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:13.160 That is used when you need very quick results somebody 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:15.880 coming into an e er, somebody about to go for surgery, 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:20.760 somebody who's about to go for a procedure, or in 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:24.760 a community UM, we really want to know right away 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.320 in terms of segregating people UM. And then there's the 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:32.640 much more reliable and tests that can be done on 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:37.560 in much greater volumes UM in laboratories. But the turnaround 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.560 time there is going to be at least nine and 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:44.360 it's often twelve hours in terms of delivery and getting 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:47.560 it and that sort of thing, And there's a very 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:51.240 short supply of the point of care tests. They're just 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:53.640 not out there to be had at the present time. 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.159 As a matter of fact, paradoxically, our numbers of point 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:00.680 of care testing has decreased in the last um we 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.960 strictly due to supply problems. Are laboratory based testing is 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:10.279 increasing significantly, so just briefly, the point of care testing. 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:11.920 So it sounds like we need both. But I mean, 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:14.720 is it something that the federal government should be acting 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:17.080 much more aggressively on And we've only unfortunately got about 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.000 forty seconds before we'll take a break and tuck a 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:22.960 it more. Well, you get into the politics of it, 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:26.200 But yes, I mean, I think we've been reassured so 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:28.520 many times by the federal government that there are more 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:32.520 than adequate tests, um, but anybody working here knows that's 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:35.720 just not the case. I mean, they're just not available. 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:37.560 I think the labs are doing the best they can. 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:40.360 I think we're gearing up as fast as we can. 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.880 We do have enough sterrology capacity. We can test over 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:48.000 ten thousand people a day for sorology, But unfortunately sorology 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:50.960 is helpful from an epidemiologic point of view, but it 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:55.960 is not going to allow us to rapidly distinguish who's 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:59.000 infecting who's not well. Let's continue our conversation with Dr 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.960 Bruce far where he's at Heath of Infectious Diseases at 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:07.200 Northwell Health here in the New York area. Dr Farber, 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:11.480 let's just go there and talk about what does reopening 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:13.760 look like? And, as Carol said just a few minutes ago, 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.600 what's a realistic timeline, especially when we're thinking about our 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:21.000 area here. Well, I think it's going to happen in stages. 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:23.240 I don't think there's any doubt about that. Look, I 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:25.960 do believe that it's much less likely to get this 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:29.920 infection when you're outside, particularly with social distancing. It's not 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.480 only easier to social distance, but the wind, the weather 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.520 allow this virus to become much less contagious when you're 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:40.600 outside than when you're in a confined space with poor 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:44.520 air exchanges. UM. So I could potentially see over the 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:50.640 summer outdoor restaurants opening with a lot of space, UM, 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:54.400 indoor restaurants maybe maybe later, you know, with a lot 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.600 of space. Um. The last thing, I don't think we're 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:01.120 gonna see open for many months. Are going to be 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:08.720 large venues broadway uh, basketball games, sports events, concerts, all 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.680 of the things that unfortunately make New York such a 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:14.960 vibrant city and bring in tourists. It's just hard to 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:19.679 see that happening, uh for at least many, many, many 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:22.800 more months to come. Dr Farber, what about though, Okay, 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:26.120 teams playing professionally, but there's nobody in the stand, so 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:30.440 at least broadcast organizations can be broadcasting games. Can teams 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:34.720 play safely and easily? It's a really good question. And 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.200 I've been working with one of the professional teams on this, 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:39.839 and it can be done, but it has to be 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.360 done with so much detail, and it's not going to 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:46.240 be done the way it used to be done. It 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:50.160 will literally have to be in a very closed environment 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:53.480 where players cannot leave for a period of time. They 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:56.520 will have to be tested on a regular basis. It's 0:08:56.520 --> 0:09:00.240 going to be harder for certain sports like football, much 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:04.240 harder because of the number of people involved. It's not 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.079 clear that anybody's going to be able to pull it off, 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:10.560 and particularly if there's a shortage of tests, because there's 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:12.600 gonna have you're gonna have to test all of these 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:16.560 people very very often, probably every two days, three days 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:20.120 at the most, maybe more often. So it's not a 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:22.439 matter of just taking the fans out of the stadium 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.080 and then putting on these games. There's a lot of 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.920 work and a lot of problems. We talked with Paul 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.320 Raybell and the Premier Lacrosse Lea because he is doing 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:35.400 a self quarantine two week tournament. But basically, once the 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.480 players are tested and quarantined, they're in it for a 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:42.080 couple of weeks. And I do wonder if for professional sports, 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:45.600 maybe baseball to actually take off. You're talking about teams 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:49.160 having to quarantine themselves, probably from their families for uh 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.440 sustained period of time in order for them to play. Yes, 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.720 and it'll change the schedules. Back to back games will 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.520 be more difficult to do based on the testing and 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:02.319 the risk of exposure to the people. Um, yes, it's 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:04.719 going to be a different game if if it if 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:06.679 it comes off, and it's not going to be easy, 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.040 and uh, it will have to be limited to a 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:11.719 few sites. By the way, I don't think that you know, 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:15.199 the travel will allow this to be a regular season. 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.440 It will be entirely different, and so dr Farber. What 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:23.760 are we learning so far from other states that have 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:30.280 had lower infection rates, lower incidences of COVID nineteen cases 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:34.040 that maybe we can take from and learn from as 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:38.800 as this country sort of reopens in different stages. Well, 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.480 I think we actually learn more in some respects from 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:44.360 other countries than we do for different states, because states 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:46.480 have been all over the place, and a lot of 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:50.160 what's happened in states to me so far is it's 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.040 too early to say that they're really going to be 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:55.520 spared or whether they've been literally lucky to date based 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:59.120 on their population density and and other things, because certainly 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.120 um jury is still out on all those issues. But 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.680 in the countries like South Korea and Indonesian Singapore that 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:09.160 have done a pretty good job, what you notice is 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:12.080 that they've done pretty much what we've done, only they've 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:16.120 ramped up testing enormously. They've done a lot of contact tracing, 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:20.280 they've changed the work habits of people, they've did ongoing 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:25.360 social distancing, and most importantly, they're seeing many outbreaks and 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:29.559 many reintroductions that they have to clamp down on immediately 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:33.440 and isolate those people. And unfortunately it's a lot harder 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:37.760 in a big heterogeneous country like ours, particularly in a 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:39.839 density like New York, you're gonna have to be a 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.840 quick twenty seconds. But offices and things like New York 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:46.320 and community, that's going to be really difficult to work out. Yes, 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:49.520 staggered hours. People probably will change the way they work. 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:51.920 They'll come in in the morning, shift in the office 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:55.640 and you know, stay later. Um, Yeah, there's gonna be 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:58.520 a lot of changes. Yeah, absolutely. All right, Well, we 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:00.760 will look forward to keeping touch with you. Thank you 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:03.960 so much. This was really really worthwhile for us and 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:05.960 for our listeners. Bruce Farber, he is the chief of 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.160 infectious Diseases at Northwell Health. Johinius on the phone from 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:14.839 a little bit totally totally. This is Bloomberg Business Week 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:19.120 with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. I've 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:21.400 got to save ourselves from going down a major rabbit 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:23.600 hole here, because Joel Webber and I are instant messaging 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.080 right now talking about the Big Lebowski and I could 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.000 spend the rest of the show talking about that. We're 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:30.000 not going to talk about that. We're gonna talk about 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:33.319 a terrific story that Devin Leonard wrote. He has projects 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.160 and investigations reporter one of our favorites for Bloomberg Business Week, 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:38.640 Johinius on the phone from New York, as is the 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.360 aforementioned editor of the magazine, Joe Weber. He's on the 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:44.600 phone from Brooklyn. So this aggression will not stand, Joel. 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:47.120 But I turned it over to you to help us 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:52.440 understand what's going on in the world of small business. Uh, boy, 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.439 talk about a moment in time that group of businesses 0:12:55.559 --> 0:13:00.440 have just been really sideswiped. Um. And and this is 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:04.120 obviously something that UM Bloomberg has been covering closely from 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:08.559 the moment that pandemic really started to escalate. Because if 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.199 there's a you know, really a backbone of this country's 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.160 economy in the U S, it's it looks like small business. 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.199 Uh roughly one out of every two jobs in the 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:22.600 country probably are small business related. And UM, so they've 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:25.600 really been bearing the brunt of it. And Uh, as 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:27.880 we've sort of seen this story evolved, we put death 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.439 in into the mixt to sort of step back and 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:32.400 really kind of help us make sense of things like 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.560 P P P. And as he kind of dug into it, 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:38.160 it just was like such a rich narrative and also 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:40.079 one that like, look, this is a story that were 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.520 this is the opening opening chapters of it. We're looking 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:47.360 at something here that's gonna last for weeks, months, years. Um, Devin, 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:49.720 what did you talk to so many small business people 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:52.640 for this story? Where did what kind of takeaways and 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:56.320 lessons did you have? Well, just really quickly, just just 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.439 for the record, um, my editor who did a great 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:01.640 job in the story he cut out by big Lebowski joke, 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:05.480 I said that the SBA abides anyway, I just since 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.240 you guys brought it up. But what I found out 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:12.640 was that, I mean, this was a really well intentioned 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.040 thing that Congress did as part of the Cares Act, 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:18.120 the Paycheck Protection Program, but it was rushed out. It 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:20.480 was intended, you know, it was sort of sort of 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:23.360 framed as something that would that would really help small businesses, 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:27.320 but really it's much more designed to well to do 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.800 what it has protect people's paychecks, keep people on the 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.760 payroll these of these small businesses. But a lot of 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.680 the small businesses are struggling. They've been ordered to shut 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:41.560 and for for the for the proprietors, they have to decide, well, 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:43.880 do I just pay all my workers to do nothing, 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:45.840 or do I somehow hope that I can use the 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.480 money later when we're opening up in an uncertain economy. 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.680 So it's a lot of money, you know, more than 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.320 six hundred billion dollars, but it's going to have the 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.440 impact that that Congress. I think that we all hoped. 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:00.760 I I don't. I don't. No, I don't think it's 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.120 really clear at all. Well, Devin, so what you know 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.800 through your reporting and talking to small business and you 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.920 have a you know, really great read and story um 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:13.760 reality of Sarah McNally, who runs you know, well known bookstores, 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:16.120 certainly here in the New York City area, And I 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:18.960 just do wonder is it the program itself, the size 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:23.640 of the program, the access to small business loans? Where 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.120 what have you found out that's you know what's breaking 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:32.120 down here. Well, Congress sort of, as as often happens, 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.680 Congress passes along allocates you know, you know, the amount 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:37.240 of money to be spent on it. But how it's 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.720 actually going to be implemented, that's the left up to 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:43.480 to the agency that's actually going to be running the program, 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:46.920 or in this case, the Small Business Administration and the 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.400 you know, the U. S. Department of Treasury, and they 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:54.560 together they wrote these rules kind of after the fact 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:58.240 that's going to lock in small business owners to this 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.760 sevent uh you know, had spend seventy five percent on 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:03.240 payroll or you don't get a loan forgiven. And the 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.280 whole thing was presented kind of as a grant program 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:09.800 to begin with, so you know, you have that, of course, Carol, 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:13.000 on top of well, people had you know, people had 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:16.200 heard had hard times getting loans because rather than put 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:19.360 the money through the Small Business Business Administration, which has 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.320 had a tough time handing out to the loans directly 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:26.440 before and you know, situations like Katrina and even you know, 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:30.720 more recently in Hurricane Sandy, they basically had the SBA 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:34.160 guarantee loans and then the you know, banks would would 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:35.600 hand them out. And you know, as we all know 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:40.040 now and as Bloomberg has reported extensively on UM and 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.680 done a fantastic job on you know, you know, jpm Oregan, 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.360 big banks like that they favored their existing clients first 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:49.560 because again the rules were unclear and they didn't want 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:51.200 to take a chance or they were you know, they 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:52.720 didn't want to rush to take a chance on a 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:56.360 bunch of you know, first time bars credit histories that 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:59.680 they were completely unfamiliar with. So actually that given that 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.360 leads to sort of like a chapter in the story 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:04.760 that you did, which is ultimately about you know, small 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:08.520 business owners who are you know, almost turned away from 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:10.680 the big institutions and one of the places that they've 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:14.360 turned to our sort of smaller or community banks. Um. 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:16.720 And at first that wasn't really an option. But then 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:19.920 there's been sort of cast of characters that happens to 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.520 show up in your story. Told me about those people, um, 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:27.320 and sort of how how there's been sort of a 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:31.920 sort of middleman aspect to how these loans have gone down, well, 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.480 at least at least in this case. So you start 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.760 with Sarah McNally. She owns four bookstores. You know, she'd 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.439 had two bookstores up until about six months ago, and 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:42.479 then she opened two more, double the size of her 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:45.760 company than the COVID you know, the COVID nineteen crisis hits. 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:48.879 And um, she has to decide what to do. I 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.879 started talking to her before she even went to you know, 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:53.480 try try to get a you know, a p P 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:55.960 P loan. But because like a lot of these small 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:58.800 business owners, they operate in really slow margins. What they 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:01.160 don't want and want is more debt. But she decided 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:03.920 she kind of had to go for it because bookstores 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:05.960 are non essential businesses, so she had to pretty much 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.720 close down. She is operating an online business, but that 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:12.080 that doesn't she can't employ you know, a hundred and 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.960 fifteen employees on that revenue. So she goes to Bank 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.080 of America. It becomes pretty pretty clear that you know, 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:21.920 pretty walked about a week or so that um, it's 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:24.719 that the only thing is possible is maybe getting loans 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:26.600 for two of her stores, and she has actually has 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.399 two stationary stores, so it's six and all. So she 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:31.800 kind of panics, calls all these people, winds up talking 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.199 to her optometries of all people, and he's in a 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:38.159 similar situation. He's gone, he's he's tried to apply online 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:42.760 at JP Morgan Chase, he's been turned down, and but 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:47.240 he has this connection through his um optometric association to 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:49.840 this because a loan brokerage out of Long Island, and 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:53.159 these guys basically deal with all these non banks, and 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:58.720 they wind up connecting Sarah with a non bank. It's 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:03.399 it's called Fountain Head in uh in Florida, and the 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:06.159 bank approves her, but doesn't get a chance to actually 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:10.040 submit the loan to to the SBA for for guarantee. 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.960 That's right when the money runs out. So so I 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.120 I just think people were just running around like crazy 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:18.840 because if you didn't have a relationship with a really 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.960 big bag, where did you go? And and and and 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.800 and so so so that you know you have a 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:26.800 a mess right there with that. Luckily she she was 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:28.520 able to find somebody, but then she gets alan and 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.480 now she's kind of like, you know, she's quite to 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:33.040 do with it. But anyway, well, and there's a great 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:35.280 question that's brought up in your store, and I highly 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:37.320 recommend that everybody go read it because there's so much 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:39.080 information in there, but about whether or not p p 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:42.080 P is really kind of thought about, is really as 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:44.800 pro worker as they are saying it is, And and 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:46.600 that's something I don't think has really gotten a lot 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:49.720 of attention so rightfully, so um, you're giving it, Devin, 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:53.119 So check out the story. It's going to be in 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:56.320 the magazine, on newstands, online and on the Bloomberg. Devin 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.400 Leonard wrote it. He is Bloomberg Business Week Investigations reporter 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:02.240 and also joining us, of course, was Joe Webber, Bloomberg 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:04.800 Business Week editor, on the phone from Brooklyn. This is 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.679 Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:14.800 Bloomberg Radio. Let's continue our economics discussion, but take it 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:17.280 in a slightly different direction with one of our face, 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.760 Andy Brown back with this editorial director for Bloomberg New 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:25.840 Economy and his column a provocative headline, as it often has, 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:29.679 Trump is trying to open Pandora's box. Andy Jones's on 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:35.760 the phone from New Hampshire. Alright, what's going on here? Ab? Yeah, So, look, 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:40.119 the the central idea here is at um. You know, 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:44.320 at the very heart of this global pandemic UM is 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:48.520 a mystery. UM. And that mystery quite simply is where 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:53.080 where did this virus come from? So we know that 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:58.399 the outbreak was in Wuhan in China, and UM scientists 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:02.720 are pretty sure that it jumped from bats to humans 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:09.680 via another kind by animals. UM. You know, but UM, 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:12.439 there are huge gaps in our understanding. We don't know 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:14.359 what kind of animal. We don't know. Is it a 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:17.240 was it a farm animal, a pig for instance, Was 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:21.399 it a wild animal, a pangl in Um how did 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:25.040 it spread so quickly? Um? Could things have been done 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:30.040 to halt it before it it spread widely in Mohan 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:32.439 and then to the rest of the world. Um. And 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:34.680 so you know, in the absence of answers of this, 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:37.360 and all we have is is basically information coming out 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:39.800 of China, and much of the world doesn't believe what's 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:42.119 coming out of China. We know that there were cover ups. 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:46.919 The Chinese media has reported that, you know, uh, the 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:50.720 Chinese authorities may have way lobal the numbers of infections 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:53.840 and deaths in Wuhan. And in the absence of that, 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:58.240 you've had all of these conspiracy theories taking root, particularly 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:02.240 in the in the American political right. And one of 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:04.880