Speaker 1: It's amazing how many people will say, Oh, I'm afraid
Speaker 1: to look at myself in the mirror. I can never
Speaker 1: do that, and so what does that really say about
Speaker 1: one's relationship to themselves. Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: Today we welcome Tara Well on the show. Tara is
Speaker 1: an Associate professor of psychology at Barnard College of Columbia University,
Speaker 1: where she has taught personality psychology, health psychology, and psychology
Speaker 1: of leadership for over twenty years. Her research on motivation, perception,
Speaker 1: and cognition have been funded by the National Science Foundation
Speaker 1: and the National Institute of Mental Health. She outlines the
Speaker 1: research and benefits of her meditation program in her latest book,
Speaker 1: Mirror Meditation. In this episode, I talked to Tara about
Speaker 1: mirror meditation. What is the first thing you think of
Speaker 1: when you look in the mirror. For a lot of us,
Speaker 1: our initial instinct is to nitpick at our flaws. Using
Speaker 1: mirror meditation, Tara teaches people how to use one's reflection
Speaker 1: to promote self acceptance and inner Knowing the mirror can
Speaker 1: also help us become kinder, not just to ourselves, but
Speaker 1: to the people around us as well. We also touch
Speaker 1: on the topics of narcissism, compassion, and attachment. It was
Speaker 1: really great catching up with my colleague at Columbia, Tara,
Speaker 1: who I hold in very high esteem. Her work is
Speaker 1: really great and really novel. I hope that it helps
Speaker 1: you view the world in new ways and to view
Speaker 1: yourself in new ways, just like her work has helped
Speaker 1: me with. So, without further ado, I bring you Tara Well.
Speaker 1: Taro Well, I'm so good to finally have you on
Speaker 1: my show. It's great to be here, Scott, thank you
Speaker 1: for the invitation, My pleasure. The great Tara Well. Can
Speaker 1: you tell our audience a little bit about you? Obviously,
Speaker 1: I know you as a colleague from Barnard College at
Speaker 1: Columbia University, as the star professor there Barnard, Tara Well,
Speaker 1: and you're so kind and warm and welcoming when I
Speaker 1: first got there. I remember and I'll never forget that.
Speaker 1: I'm so deeply appreciative of you, and I love your work.
Speaker 1: But tell the broader world more about you. Sure Well.
Speaker 1: It's a thrilled to have you at Barnard and teaching
Speaker 1: for us. It's amazing you know what you're doing in
Speaker 1: the class to really use psychology research to teach our
Speaker 1: students some great skills to help to regulate their emotions
Speaker 1: and to be more present and enjoy the present moment
Speaker 1: in their lives. I've been at Barnard for about twenty
Speaker 1: five years. I've been teaching personality psychology there. I remember
Speaker 1: my job interview thinking like, oh, I'd love to have
Speaker 1: gone to a school like that, and it all worked out,
Speaker 1: so I got to be there. I've been there for
Speaker 1: all these years teaching our amazing undergraduates. I have a
Speaker 1: PhD in personality psychology that I received from Michigan State,
Speaker 1: where I work with Professor Joel Aronoff, who was one
Speaker 1: of Abraham Masel's original students at Brandeis in the seventies.
Speaker 1: So I started out doing a lot of work and motivation,
Speaker 1: which is why I love your work so much, and
Speaker 1: continuing to carry that torch of all those wonderful ideas
Speaker 1: bringing them forward again. That is so cool. I didn't
Speaker 1: actually know about that history. What was your dissertation about, Like,
Speaker 1: what was the title of your doc? Magisation was like
Speaker 1: this ponderous title called the Antcedents of complex of Cognitive Complexity.
Speaker 1: So I was talking about differentiation, integration, as to psychological
Speaker 1: processes that we can use to think about, you know,
Speaker 1: how we perceive other people? Do we see differences, do
Speaker 1: we see connections? How do we see see links between
Speaker 1: other people? And just looking also at how differentiation can
Speaker 1: be more related to individual orientations towards things and seeing
Speaker 1: the connections and the integration is more related to more
Speaker 1: social kinds of variables. What used to be called the
Speaker 1: difference between agency and communion years differences between sort of
Speaker 1: like individualism collectivism. I love that, and I love that
Speaker 1: difference between communalism and agentism. I love that agentic or
Speaker 1: communal way of styles. But some of us favor one
Speaker 1: over the other as as I think we can see
Speaker 1: sometimes yes, yes, but then I have getting it, been
Speaker 1: really getting interested in what happens when both are at
Speaker 1: the extremes and both become toxic, So toxic agency, and
Speaker 1: I'm also interested in toxic altruism, and I've been I've
Speaker 1: published some work on that. So yes, yes, that's so great.
Speaker 1: It used to be called unmitigated the idea if you
Speaker 1: have the one that's right, it's not as good as
Speaker 1: having a little bit of both. Yes, yes, I know
Speaker 1: it's called unmitigated I love reframing things that sound really
Speaker 1: technical to something a little more sexy. So just toxic
Speaker 1: sounds a little sexier for the for the general public,
Speaker 1: sounds scary. It's also you know, I suppose toxic is
Speaker 1: scary too. But anyway, love it, love love it. Okay.
Speaker 1: So wait, so you're are you a social psychologist? Is
Speaker 1: that your identity psychologist? And social psychology and developmental psychology?
Speaker 1: I know a lot of social psychology, and I teach
Speaker 1: you to some degree, there's some of it in my book.
Speaker 1: But yes, social personality. We're going to go with that
Speaker 1: social personality, right, there is the there is no no,
Speaker 1: there's yeah. Is that different than anti social? Though? I
Speaker 1: don't know. Social personality sounds good? Okay, So what is
Speaker 1: the pathway from that dissertation work to the research you
Speaker 1: started doing earlier in career to like where did you
Speaker 1: start to get into mirror meditation? Like because this is
Speaker 1: your baby, I mean this is like I think mirror meditation,
Speaker 1: I think tarawell, Like, what when did you know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying? At what point in your career did you
Speaker 1: like come up with that term? Did you think, oh, well,
Speaker 1: this could be really valuable to helping people like where
Speaker 1: when was that? Well? I've always been really interested in
Speaker 1: how and why people perceive the same thing differently, why
Speaker 1: everybody's perception of reality is just like a little bit
Speaker 1: different or sometimes a lot different. And as a personality psychologists,
Speaker 1: I was looking for personality variables, motivations, ways of perceiving
Speaker 1: that could kind of account for that variability. And so
Speaker 1: I did a lot of work on motivation and looking
Speaker 1: at differences in cognitive processes and perception, and then also
Speaker 1: looking at autobiographical memories early on, and then I became
Speaker 1: more interested in developing my own meditation practice, and one
Speaker 1: of the tools was, you know, sitting there kind of
Speaker 1: with my eyes closed. When you meditate, you're supposed to
Speaker 1: kind of clear your mind and focus on your breathing
Speaker 1: and relax your body. But as a psychologist, I was
Speaker 1: always more interested in sort of the content of what
Speaker 1: I'm thinking. Why did that idea just pop into my
Speaker 1: mind right then, you know, and what does it mean
Speaker 1: and all that. Rather than trying to breathe it away,
Speaker 1: I wanted to think about what it really meant. And
Speaker 1: I started to look in the mirror when I was
Speaker 1: meditating to try and track my you know, feelings and emotions,
Speaker 1: or what was the feeling or sensation I was having
Speaker 1: right before I thought a certain thought as a way
Speaker 1: to sort of externalize what was happening in my own
Speaker 1: mind by seeing it in the mirror, and it was
Speaker 1: really useful to me. So I wanted to do some
Speaker 1: mirror gazing experiments with people to see if it was
Speaker 1: useful for them too, and to see what they would
Speaker 1: discover if they were willing to take the time to
Speaker 1: really look at themselves. And really the three main things
Speaker 1: that I discovered was that people are much more critical
Speaker 1: of themselves than they realize. When they sit in front
Speaker 1: of a mirror with nothing to do, the first thing
Speaker 1: they usually do is find things wrong with them and
Speaker 1: criticize themselves. And then the second thing is, oftentimes there's
Speaker 1: a bit of a disconnect between our emotions, how our
Speaker 1: emotions are showing up on our face, and what we're
Speaker 1: feeling inside. And working with the mirror can oftentimes help
Speaker 1: people develop more awareness of what they're actually feeling and
Speaker 1: how maybe some of the social display rules that we've
Speaker 1: been taught have prevented them from actually feeling deeply what
Speaker 1: they're feeling socially. And then the third was just people
Speaker 1: becoming more aware of how looking at other people affected
Speaker 1: other people, and how being seen by other people was
Speaker 1: affecting them, and the quality of those interactions. Just gazes,
Speaker 1: not talking, but just how people can look at you
Speaker 1: and kind of change how you're feeling about yourself or
Speaker 1: how you're feeling about a situation, and the power in that.
Speaker 1: I have so many questions. First, let me ask you,
Speaker 1: did was there any precedent in the psychological literature to this,
Speaker 1: had anyone actually, don't in anyone in the history of
Speaker 1: the humanity before you to talk about the value of
Speaker 1: staring yourself in the mirror for meditation purposes. I tend
Speaker 1: not to say steering because it sounds like like her wheezing,
Speaker 1: but observing. Yes, yes, yes, Well, there was early work
Speaker 1: by Louise Hay who was a self love girl, and
Speaker 1: she developed mirror work which was actually positive affirmations in
Speaker 1: the mirror. And you might have seen skits on Saturday
Speaker 1: Night Lives Stuarts smally saying how much you loved himself
Speaker 1: in the mirror, that kind of thing. But then there
Speaker 1: was more recently a study done by Nicola petershki I
Speaker 1: believe in which they did a really interesting study to
Speaker 1: try and see if there was any actual results that
Speaker 1: could be found from doing the mirror gazing and saying affirmations,
Speaker 1: and they had three conditions. They had. First, people were
Speaker 1: asked to come up with kind of reassuring phrases that
Speaker 1: they would give to a friend who was in distress.
Speaker 1: So it was more realistic because some of the positive
Speaker 1: affirmations can kind of almost be like gaslighting yourself. You're
Speaker 1: saying things like if you really feel fat and ugly
Speaker 1: and you say I'm thin, I'm beautiful, and it doesn't
Speaker 1: really work very well, and it can almost be like
Speaker 1: gaslighting yourself into you know, not coming into contact with
Speaker 1: yourself as truly. So in the study they had the
Speaker 1: three conditions, one in which they said the affirmations in
Speaker 1: front of the mirror, the other in which they does
Speaker 1: to the affirmations, and then they just gaze at themselves
Speaker 1: in the mirror. And they found that people felt a
Speaker 1: lot better and actually experience different types of physiological effects
Speaker 1: the ability to downwardly regulate their emotions when they said
Speaker 1: positive affirmations in the mirror. So they created a self
Speaker 1: soothing effect by looking at themselves. And so I think
Speaker 1: this is very much related to how we mutually gaze
Speaker 1: with each other and that that creates a dopamine hit,
Speaker 1: and it also helps us to regulate and connect with
Speaker 1: each other. And you can do that with yourself in
Speaker 1: the mirror. Wow. Are you familiar with the Saturday Night
Speaker 1: Live character in the eighties Stuart Smally? Uh huh yeah
Speaker 1: by Alf Franken. I'm good enough. Look at yourself in
Speaker 1: the mirror and say I'm good enough, I'm smart enough,
Speaker 1: and dogged on it people like me. Now, what you're
Speaker 1: doing is not that no, no, be clear. It may
Speaker 1: be clear to people. Yeah, yeah, yes. This is a
Speaker 1: silent meditation in which you basically sit with yourself using
Speaker 1: the principles of mindfulness meditation, trying to keep your attention
Speaker 1: in the present moment, having an open awareness of anything
Speaker 1: that you might be experience seeing during the meditation, and
Speaker 1: then having a kind intention towards yourself. We found many
Speaker 1: people's first impulse is to just criticize themselves, to find
Speaker 1: something wrong, either with their physical appearance or some aspect
Speaker 1: of their personality, or something about themselves that does Seeing
Speaker 1: themselves activates that, and so that's really important information for
Speaker 1: people to work with because oftentimes, you know, those critical
Speaker 1: thoughts are kind of running in the background or they
Speaker 1: get evoked when we talk to other people. But to
Speaker 1: be able to work with those with with ourselves can
Speaker 1: be really useful. Absolutely, I agree. You know, I'm really
Speaker 1: curious about that the interplay between identity and the way
Speaker 1: our physical appearance and well ways that our identity can
Speaker 1: influence our perceptions of our physical appearance or perceptions of
Speaker 1: who we are. What is the intertwined each of there,
Speaker 1: between the identities we have and how we see ourselves
Speaker 1: in front of the mirror and seeing ourselves in reality.
Speaker 1: This is complex stuff, right, It's really complex. People think
Speaker 1: you just, oh, just sit in front of the mirror
Speaker 1: and stare at yourself, but a lot happens when you're
Speaker 1: doing that. If you're really willing to sit and commit
Speaker 1: looking at yourself, a lot can happen. And I think
Speaker 1: one of the main things that people realize is that
Speaker 1: oftentimes they have identities that have been assigned to them
Speaker 1: by other people, and so when they look in the mirror,
Speaker 1: they can oftentimes and I even have some exercises in
Speaker 1: the book where I ask people to come up with
Speaker 1: the names that people use to describe them, like if
Speaker 1: you're you know, the difference between being Professor Kaufman versus
Speaker 1: Scott or maybe a friend to call you Scottie or
Speaker 1: something like that, and how that would make you feel differently,
Speaker 1: and then to say those words that people call you
Speaker 1: and to see how that feels in your body as
Speaker 1: you look at yourself in the mirror. And in that
Speaker 1: way it really helps people, you know, see what lands
Speaker 1: with them and what doesn't, and I think helps them
Speaker 1: get clear on the roles that they're playing and do
Speaker 1: they want to play them, and you know, and the
Speaker 1: toll it might be taking on them emotionally to be
Speaker 1: a certain thing for a certain person, or to act
Speaker 1: in a certain way that's consistent with how they always acted,
Speaker 1: but now they feel that they change beyond it. So
Speaker 1: the mirror can really be a way to kind of
Speaker 1: experiment with alternative identities or shifts an identity. It's a
Speaker 1: great exercise to do when you're going through an identity shift,
Speaker 1: be it a change in your I don't know your
Speaker 1: your sexuality, the change in your relationship status, the change
Speaker 1: in your work environment, loss of a friend, all kinds
Speaker 1: of experiences that impact our identity indirect ways. It's great
Speaker 1: to be able to sit in front of the mirror
Speaker 1: and just say whoa who am I now you know,
Speaker 1: and have that be an open question. Yeah. I think
Speaker 1: this constant balancing line between self acceptance and wanting to
Speaker 1: change things is really interesting. And how can mirror meditation
Speaker 1: help you figure out which is which? I mean, we
Speaker 1: already ascertain it's not Stuart Small's technique. You're not no
Speaker 1: matter who you are. Like, let's say you're morbidly obese
Speaker 1: and you stand in front of the mirror and you're like,
Speaker 1: I am skinny, right, I mean, that's obviously not true, right,
Speaker 1: and so like. But then if you just have self
Speaker 1: acceptance that then you won't ever hit the gym, or
Speaker 1: you won't ever do what you have to do to
Speaker 1: loose some weight. So how can mere meditation help you
Speaker 1: see yourself clearly and motivate you to change. One of
Speaker 1: the things that I emphasize is that first you should
Speaker 1: get comfortable just seeing yourself and not doing anything. Because
Speaker 1: we oftentimes live in a culture world, we have to
Speaker 1: keep constantly doing things, and many people who are interested
Speaker 1: in these kinds of techniques. They're on a very rigorous
Speaker 1: self improvement program, so they want to sit down, they
Speaker 1: want to do mereor meditation. They want to get results,
Speaker 1: and they have to be constantly working on something to change.
Speaker 1: And what I recommend for people have those kinds of
Speaker 1: tendencies to always like how am I improving? You know,
Speaker 1: I have to be improving every second, to just do nothing,
Speaker 1: to just do nothing, to just sit for ten minutes
Speaker 1: a day in front of the mirror, get a cup
Speaker 1: of coffee or whatever, and just do nothing. That's going
Speaker 1: to be hard for some people who they want to
Speaker 1: hack every moment. It's very hard. But think about it.
Speaker 1: You know, we all want to have these relationships with
Speaker 1: people that were in the present moment and they accept
Speaker 1: us for who we truly are, and we just hang
Speaker 1: out and appreciate each other. And we can't do that
Speaker 1: for ourselves. We always have to be, you know, doing something,
Speaker 1: striving to be better. Yeah, there's a lot of pressure
Speaker 1: for that in our society today, all in the cellf
Speaker 1: out world, you know, there's a lot of like get
Speaker 1: up at six am and every day and run five miles, right,
Speaker 1: you can just mere meditation is actually perfect when you
Speaker 1: first get up and just sitting with yourself for ten
Speaker 1: minutes as a way to center and start your day.
Speaker 1: So mere meditation too. It's also about it's more about
Speaker 1: listening than about talking. So it's about listening to your
Speaker 1: kind of like your inner knowing, which might sound a
Speaker 1: little cheesy, but it's like it's like, you know, how
Speaker 1: am I feeling about my day? You know? Instead of
Speaker 1: you know, checking things off my to do list, if
Speaker 1: I just hang out with myself for ten minutes, how
Speaker 1: how is that going to you know, help me to
Speaker 1: be centered? Yeah, I hear it, And don't worry everyone.
Speaker 1: We are going to do a sample meditation today. I
Speaker 1: assume at the end, at the end, right, right? Is
Speaker 1: that okay? Yeah, we can do that. Yeah, so everyone
Speaker 1: can see how how this is applied. The trauma, loss,
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Speaker 1: and become your best self. Okay, now back to the show.
Speaker 1: So let's go through some of some more of this
Speaker 1: sort of theory behind it and philosophy behind it. So
Speaker 1: how can you unfreeze yourself with mirror meditation? Ah? Yes,
Speaker 1: I talk in the book about the stress response, fight, freeze,
Speaker 1: and flee, and so unfreezing. We tend to freeze, you know,
Speaker 1: suddenly when something catches a soft guard, and you can
Speaker 1: unfreeze yourself by simply moving moving your body in some way.
Speaker 1: And then also the example I given the book is
Speaker 1: a cat collar. So you're, you know, women's walking down
Speaker 1: the street and someone says hey, nice body part, and
Speaker 1: woman freezes and then feels bad because she froze because
Speaker 1: some random person is like creating this response. So one
Speaker 1: of the best ways to unfreeze is to take your
Speaker 1: attention from yourself and how you're feeling and put it
Speaker 1: back onto whatever the threat is. So so that you're
Speaker 1: taking attention off yourself and putting it onto another person
Speaker 1: instead of focusing on ooh, maybe I do you know
Speaker 1: someone criticizes you, you know, something to do with your
Speaker 1: appearance or something like that. People tend to focus on themselves,
Speaker 1: but really it's better to take their attention off of
Speaker 1: themselves onto the situation. That's the best ways to manage anxiety,
Speaker 1: particularly social anxiety, because in social life anxiety, we tend
Speaker 1: to focus on ourselves and how we're feeling, and how
Speaker 1: we might be looking to other people and how we're
Speaker 1: coming across. But when we just put our attention on
Speaker 1: the other person, that can really shift things. So the
Speaker 1: mirror is really about practicing shifting your attention in different ways,
Speaker 1: so you can focus on what you're feeling inside, your
Speaker 1: motions and body sensations. You can look outside yourself at
Speaker 1: the other people you're talking to, at your environment, and
Speaker 1: you can also take a third person perspective, which is
Speaker 1: more of a self objectifying perspective, so you're actually sort
Speaker 1: of like watching yourself from a bird's eye view about
Speaker 1: how other people see you, and that can oftentimes lead
Speaker 1: to anxiety if you do it in times when you
Speaker 1: don't want to do it, and there's a good deal
Speaker 1: of research showing that self objectification can you can evoke
Speaker 1: self obtuification using mirrors, because we're all been trained to
Speaker 1: scrutinize our appearance using mirrors and to compare ourselves with
Speaker 1: perfect images that we see in the media. Such a
Speaker 1: good What about like narcissists who everywhere there's a mirror,
Speaker 1: they get a chance, they look at themselves in the mirror.
Speaker 1: Do you ever think like mirror meditation can run amok?
Speaker 1: You know among narcissisms, well, too much focus on the self,
Speaker 1: right right, Well, that was one of the main sort
Speaker 1: of criticisms I was anticipating putting this work out out
Speaker 1: into the world because it did seem like what am
Speaker 1: I just advocating narcissism. So I did think about it,
Speaker 1: and I did do some research on it, and my
Speaker 1: sense of this is that narcissists can only really focus
Speaker 1: on their surface appearance, so they'll look in the mirror,
Speaker 1: but they don't have the patients to go deeper. They
Speaker 1: don't have the patients to look for ten minutes and
Speaker 1: be involved in what they're actually experiencing. And of course
Speaker 1: there's been a long history of a connection between narcissism
Speaker 1: and mirrors. In fact, that's how the disorder was named,
Speaker 1: of the narcissusts looking at himself in the mirror and
Speaker 1: stuck in looking at his own reflection. In the research
Speaker 1: on narcissism, particularly the neuroscience on narcissism, it appears that
Speaker 1: narcissists can't turn off self focus in their anterior insula.
Speaker 1: So it's, oh, that's super interesting, right, and so in
Speaker 1: the research that shows like one of the main things
Speaker 1: about narcissism, the hallmark of narcissism is that narcissists don't
Speaker 1: have a capacity for empathy, and oftentimes we characterize that
Speaker 1: as some kind of willful I want to focus on me,
Speaker 1: I'm self absorbed, I don't care about other people. But
Speaker 1: there's some research to suggest that this could be happening
Speaker 1: at a neurological level, so that the interior insula of narcissists,
Speaker 1: they tend not to be able to shift from self
Speaker 1: focus to other focuses readily, so they're always sort of
Speaker 1: focused on themselves and sort of this automatic way empathy
Speaker 1: can come about by being able to recognize the emotions
Speaker 1: and others, particularly emotions of distress in others and there's
Speaker 1: a few studies that show that narcissists cannot recognize negative emotions,
Speaker 1: particularly fear and anger in others, and there also can't
Speaker 1: really downward regulate their own anxiety, but they oftentimes have
Speaker 1: this facade of being very cool and together. So the
Speaker 1: combination of not being able to shift out of self focus,
Speaker 1: then also not being able to recognize these negative emotions
Speaker 1: of distress in others, and also not having an impaired
Speaker 1: ability to regulate their own level of arousal all sort
Speaker 1: of contributes to sort of the annoying behavior we sometimes
Speaker 1: see in that self focus in narcissists, where they don't
Speaker 1: really reflect the emotions of others and are able to
Speaker 1: be in communication. So one of the things that I
Speaker 1: recommend as a possibility is, you know, when people are
Speaker 1: in that self focused state, instead of getting annoyed, you
Speaker 1: might need to just point out how you're feeling, or
Speaker 1: keep drawing their attention back to how you're feeling in
Speaker 1: more obvious ways than you might think you need to.
Speaker 1: For someone who can has more capacity to shift their
Speaker 1: self focus. Wow wow wow, So what tell our audience
Speaker 1: a little more? Who our audience who aren't neuroscientists what
Speaker 1: the interior insula does. What are some of its functions.
Speaker 1: The antier insula acts like a switch between two main
Speaker 1: types of cognitive function. One is ability to function on
Speaker 1: tasks and do the work at hand, and the other
Speaker 1: is the self focus. And basically it's difficult to do
Speaker 1: both at the same time. So the example I give
Speaker 1: oftentimes is you're a skier and you're going downhill and
Speaker 1: your skis what you don't want to do is shift
Speaker 1: your attention to either oh, how nervous you are about
Speaker 1: out you know, doing this, or worse yet, focusing on
Speaker 1: how you look in your ski suit, to the person,
Speaker 1: to the people in the audience. Because you're going to
Speaker 1: hit a treat. You want to be able to just
Speaker 1: focus on the task at hand. And so if you're
Speaker 1: always thinking about yourself, it's going to impair your ability
Speaker 1: to function and certainly to relate to other people. Thank
Speaker 1: you for that little neuroscience one on one. There's a
Speaker 1: chapter in your book about compassion for the narcissist. Can
Speaker 1: you talk a little about what you meant about that?
Speaker 1: And again, I want to keep digging deeper into why
Speaker 1: your meditation actually can lead us out of narcissism. Paradoxically, well,
Speaker 1: compassion for the narcissist is it's really about reframing it
Speaker 1: instead of as an annoying person who's pulling our attention
Speaker 1: onto them, thinking about what it is that they truly
Speaker 1: need and why they're not getting that. So the idea
Speaker 1: of calling narcissism narcissism and techoanalysts identified a certain kind
Speaker 1: of patient they had that had an insatiable need to
Speaker 1: be seen and reflected and reaffirmed, but it seemed to
Speaker 1: be a one way reflection in that their patient was
Speaker 1: unable to regard other people as any more than reflectors
Speaker 1: of them, so that they didn't really see people as people,
Speaker 1: but people who were going to admire and think that
Speaker 1: they were great, and that ended up being what was
Speaker 1: called a mirror transference. So the question is why would
Speaker 1: someone do that? Well, one of the things that we
Speaker 1: know about narcissism is that people oftentimes identify with an
Speaker 1: idealized self image that they have created, oftentimes again to
Speaker 1: shield them against vulnerability and feeling the negative emotions. This
Speaker 1: can often be due to trauma or some kind of
Speaker 1: emotional abuse and in accurate reflection, so being reflected in
Speaker 1: ways that are just not sustainable. So, for instance, the
Speaker 1: child who's told that they're brilliant and beautiful and wonderful
Speaker 1: and then expects the whole world to always stop and
Speaker 1: see them as brilliant and beautiful and wonderful, when in
Speaker 1: fact they that might not be the most accurate way
Speaker 1: to see oneself because everyone has both good and bad qualities.
Speaker 1: So the narcissist only wants to focus on the good qualities.
Speaker 1: But to really build like a sense of self esteem,
Speaker 1: a sense of efficacy and accomplishment, you have to have
Speaker 1: failure experiences too, and you have accurate reflection. You have
Speaker 1: to have people around who tell you, hey, you're not
Speaker 1: good at this, or you need to get better at that,
Speaker 1: or what you said was very you know, it had
Speaker 1: this impact on people, so maybe, you know, if you
Speaker 1: can think about some other ways to say things. So
Speaker 1: it's kind of developing, sort of like a hard show,
Speaker 1: so that you can't feel anyone's criticisms of you anymore,
Speaker 1: because it was it was just too painful for them
Speaker 1: to experience that when they were younger. So this can
Speaker 1: also be about growing up in a way that you
Speaker 1: weren't able to express any kind of vulnerability, and so
Speaker 1: the mirror can really help people who don't trust others
Speaker 1: to share their negative emotions and share their vulnerabilities so
Speaker 1: that you can develop that relationship with yourself. First, Wow,
Speaker 1: that's amazing. So your mirror meditation can actually improve compassion
Speaker 1: among narcissists, I think, well, I think it can improve
Speaker 1: compassion for narcissists, and I think that if they're willing
Speaker 1: to look. And again, the whole term narcissists, it's so broad,
Speaker 1: it's so general. It's about like, it can be anybody
Speaker 1: who doesn't do what you want them to do or
Speaker 1: pay attention to you. There narcissis because they didn't do
Speaker 1: what you wanted them to do, or they were more
Speaker 1: focused on what they wanted to do. So it's hard
Speaker 1: to create those blanket statements, you know. But I would
Speaker 1: say that in general, it can really help people to
Speaker 1: develop a stronger relationship with themselves so that they feel
Speaker 1: safe to know themselves. Because it's amazing how many people
Speaker 1: will say, oh, I'm afraid to look at myself in
Speaker 1: the mirror. I can never do that, and so what
Speaker 1: does that really say about one's relationship to themselves? You know,
Speaker 1: to be afraid to look at yourself for ten minutes,
Speaker 1: and I have compassion for that. You know, I have
Speaker 1: comparisons for people who don't want to look at themselves
Speaker 1: in the mirror. It's very common. In order to support
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Speaker 1: the Psychology Dash Podcast. Thanks for your help. I was
Speaker 1: wondering if you've ever if you've ever worked with someone
Speaker 1: who would score very high on a narcissistic questionnaire and
Speaker 1: have seen a reduction in narcissism based on meditation. I'm
Speaker 1: sure if you've any anecdotes. I don't have any let
Speaker 1: me see, let me see. I answer that you've seen
Speaker 1: a lot in twenty five years. I've seen in twenty
Speaker 1: five years the majority of people. I think people can
Speaker 1: be very defensive about doing this kind of thing, particularly
Speaker 1: if they're defending against their own vulnerability. So I oftentimes
Speaker 1: plan a seed with people, particularly people who get kind
Speaker 1: of like irritated with me and the idea of doing this,
Speaker 1: and I think that they might go away and the
Speaker 1: next time they pass by a mirror, they might it
Speaker 1: might change their view of who they are. But working
Speaker 1: with narcissists, it takes a long time, and it takes
Speaker 1: a lot of commitment. You know. The clinical work on
Speaker 1: narcissism really shows that you have to get them at
Speaker 1: a window when they feel really vulnerable, build trust, and
Speaker 1: do individual psychotherapy. Narcissists also do better in groups in
Speaker 1: group psychotherapy settings because they can't develop that special relationship
Speaker 1: with their therapist and they get reflection from a whole
Speaker 1: group of people. So in a sense, I think that
Speaker 1: group therapy, when you get reflections from a lot of
Speaker 1: different people, might be better than having a narcissist to
Speaker 1: look in the mirror, because that's old hat for them.
Speaker 1: I don't think that they would benefit from it. And also,
Speaker 1: it's sort of penetrating beyond your image. It's not about
Speaker 1: your image. It's not about what you look like. And
Speaker 1: so if you really have that strong relationship with I
Speaker 1: am what I look like, and I'm looking at myself
Speaker 1: to feel better about myself, then you have to create
Speaker 1: some kind of a shift so that people can see
Speaker 1: themselves more deeply. Yes, so not just clearly, but deeply. Yes. Yes, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love that you have this phrase in your book
Speaker 1: that I just thought was brilliant because I never thought
Speaker 1: of it before. I've seen it in the literature. Talk
Speaker 1: about anxious and avoidant attachment styles to other people. You
Speaker 1: talk about anxious and avoidant self attachment, self attachment. That's genius,
Speaker 1: it's genius. Did you come up with that phrase? I did?
Speaker 1: I did. I've never seen it in the literature. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's just an idea that's that's based
Speaker 1: on the attachment styles. And this actually comes from a
Speaker 1: friend of mine who's a psychotherapist, who one of his
Speaker 1: core ideas that that has really made an influence in
Speaker 1: my life and looking at people is the idea of
Speaker 1: self abandonment. The idea that you're feeling bad about something
Speaker 1: and you don't stay with yourself, You abandon yourself to
Speaker 1: go off and distract yourself and do all kinds of things.
Speaker 1: But yet, many people who tell stories about being abandoned,
Speaker 1: either by their appearents or romantic partners or mentors or
Speaker 1: bosses or whatever, they can sometimes be struggling with not
Speaker 1: abandoning themselves and staying present with themselves. So the mirror
Speaker 1: can help people come back to themselves. And that's sort
Speaker 1: of like avoidant avoidant self attachment, abandoning yourself, disregarding your feelings,
Speaker 1: not wanting to be vulnerable, not able to sit with
Speaker 1: yourself and give yourself your full attention. And then anxious
Speaker 1: self attachment is when you really can't focus on yourself
Speaker 1: because you're always in kind of what they call relationship
Speaker 1: monitoring mode, and that is you're always thinking about your
Speaker 1: relationships with other people and what they would think about
Speaker 1: what you were doing as you're doing whatever you're doing,
Speaker 1: and you know, not able to really drop the focus
Speaker 1: of thinking about other people and being concerned about your
Speaker 1: relationship with them in the moment. Wow, I think it's
Speaker 1: such so brilliant. Have you ever written a full feature
Speaker 1: article about specifically that topic. I wrote a short piece
Speaker 1: for Psychology Today, one on anxious self attachment and the
Speaker 1: other on avoidant self attachment. And I thought the anxious
Speaker 1: self attachment would you know, be a big hit because,
Speaker 1: as we know, the literature and attachment shows that the
Speaker 1: majority of or more readers than any other, tend to
Speaker 1: be anxious. So people who are anxiously attached to read
Speaker 1: a lot of books about relationships because they want to,
Speaker 1: you know, sort of figure it out. And and then
Speaker 1: the avoidance in theory care less about relationships, so they
Speaker 1: don't buy relationship books or read read about relationshipooks. But
Speaker 1: I found that the avoidant attachment the title of the
Speaker 1: article are you avoiding yourself? It ended up being like
Speaker 1: the number one article for like a few days on
Speaker 1: Psychology Today, and I, you know, it was amazing. I
Speaker 1: heard from a number of people that decided to try
Speaker 1: mere meditation to stop avoiding themselves. So, yeah, we should
Speaker 1: collaborate and create create scales psychometrically valid scales for both
Speaker 1: avoidant and anxious self attachment scales and validate it and
Speaker 1: correlate it with other attachment as well as lots of
Speaker 1: things vulnerable narcissism. I have all sorts of hypotheses about
Speaker 1: that already on the spot. Yeah, that sounds amazing. You
Speaker 1: should definitely do that. That would be such a fun
Speaker 1: collaboration and we could just put that up on EDERC,
Speaker 1: you know, like this doesn't have to be rocket science study,
Speaker 1: but we can just a preliminary sort of exploration scientifically
Speaker 1: of that. I just think it's such a brilliant idea.
Speaker 1: So I'm down to do that, Collabo if you're open.
Speaker 1: Sounds great. Yeah, really to this relating this because a
Speaker 1: big part of self, a big part of attachments theory
Speaker 1: in general is trust. You know, do you trust your
Speaker 1: partner to be there for you in times of need?
Speaker 1: So turning that within again brilliant, I really do that.
Speaker 1: It's so brilliant, Like you're under selling yourself a little bit, like,
Speaker 1: you know, like it's it's really revolutionary to think of yourself.
Speaker 1: Well from that attack of framework, what does it mean
Speaker 1: to trust yourself to be seen? What is also what
Speaker 1: would it mean, you know, to trust yourself to be
Speaker 1: there for yourself in times of need? Just like they
Speaker 1: apply to the attachment theory in general, what would that mean?
Speaker 1: For yourself, and it's such an interesting question. I'd love
Speaker 1: to hear thoughts. Yeah, and I think doing the mere
Speaker 1: meditation regularly, and I also have a section on video journaling,
Speaker 1: which is making a ten minute video journal of whatever
Speaker 1: you're feeling, you know, at the end of every day,
Speaker 1: and doing that consistently helps you build self trust because
Speaker 1: what the mirror does is it sort of externalizes what's
Speaker 1: happening inside of you. So when you see yourself in
Speaker 1: the mirror and you see yourself consistently there for yourself
Speaker 1: or not there for yourself, it creates a shift in
Speaker 1: you because oftentimes, and I think everybody does this and
Speaker 1: I certainly do this. When I go into a new situation,
Speaker 1: I look around for affirmation of if I'm okay, is
Speaker 1: everything going all right? Like am I doing okay? In
Speaker 1: your podcast? Kind of a thing, But you're doing great,
Speaker 1: thank you, And it's less so when you're able to
Speaker 1: trust yourself and you're there for yourself, it also helps
Speaker 1: you to choose more carefully your relationships with others and
Speaker 1: whose reflections you take in, because we're being reflected all
Speaker 1: the time by people who are having reactions to us,
Speaker 1: and so if you don't have a solid sense of
Speaker 1: yourself and really know yourself, you're going to be more
Speaker 1: vulnerable to, you know, kind of these crazy reflections that
Speaker 1: people have of you that aren't rooted in reality. Now,
Speaker 1: we all need people, We all need a core group
Speaker 1: of people who love us and understand and can give
Speaker 1: us really good feedback. But we also you know, in
Speaker 1: the world of social media and public image, there's also
Speaker 1: all these other people who have these interesting reflections that
Speaker 1: can be somewhat negative and usually productions of their own stuff.
Speaker 1: They can sort of get to us if we don't
Speaker 1: have that sense of self trust that we can discern
Speaker 1: what really lands as true in us and what is
Speaker 1: just something that is not useful, that feedback that's not useful,
Speaker 1: and by you know, develop strengthening one's relationship with oneself,
Speaker 1: you can be more discerning about your relationships and the
Speaker 1: feedback you're getting from people so good, so good? So
Speaker 1: how can you look at others through the eyes of love? Ah? Well,
Speaker 1: we did do meergazing. One of cool things that I
Speaker 1: did in New York. In York was I did the
Speaker 1: public debut of Mere Meditation at the Rear and Museum
Speaker 1: of Art, which is downtown in Chelsea, and they have
Speaker 1: a wonderful room. It's a sacred shrine in the upper area.
Speaker 1: And we had like sixty people come and in silence,
Speaker 1: come and take their seats in front of a mirror,
Speaker 1: and I guided them through a mirror meditation. And this
Speaker 1: was it was less of a kind of clinical psychological setting.
Speaker 1: It was much more sort of like a spiritual, sublime setting.
Speaker 1: So it was a feeling of beauty and reverence in
Speaker 1: the shrine. And so I thought it would be great
Speaker 1: because it would help people to see, you know, that
Speaker 1: aspect of themselves, that kind of divine aspect of themselves,
Speaker 1: if you will, or the appreciation of just being human.
Speaker 1: It's so hard just to be alive and just to
Speaker 1: experience that. And so at one point what we did
Speaker 1: was I had them lift their gaze and to gaze
Speaker 1: at the person across from them. Something like magical happened.
Speaker 1: Because what oftentimes happens when people look in the mirror
Speaker 1: as they start to start to criticize themselves, and then
Speaker 1: I'll try to guide them to open their perception more broadly,
Speaker 1: to see themselves more broadly than just this little criticism
Speaker 1: that they've come up with. About themselves, and once they've
Speaker 1: expanded that, it was so much easier for them to
Speaker 1: then look at other people and not be critical. So
Speaker 1: even people they didn't know, it was very easy for
Speaker 1: them to look at them like through the eyes of love.
Speaker 1: I talk about that the Melissa Manchester song I Saw
Speaker 1: You through the Eyes of Love, that old song. But
Speaker 1: really being able to see people in that way is
Speaker 1: very helpful, and it's also helpful to again to understand
Speaker 1: the difference between what you're feeling and what other people
Speaker 1: are feeling. So one of the things I talk about
Speaker 1: in the book in terms of why sometimes people don't help,
Speaker 1: or people might seem sort of callous and unconcerned, is
Speaker 1: that other people's distress evokes strong emotions in them that
Speaker 1: they don't know how to regulate, and they don't know
Speaker 1: how to manage, so that they don't have the capacity
Speaker 1: to downward regulate and then help, so they just something
Speaker 1: to either distract themselves or you know, avoid contact with
Speaker 1: people in distress. Wow, well, look homegirl. You know a
Speaker 1: lot of people they have what's called the highly sensitive personality, right,
Speaker 1: And I imagine that this could be particularly a useful
Speaker 1: form of meditation for such individuals who are constantly shape
Speaker 1: shifting based on who they're with, and they have to
Speaker 1: feel that they feel other people's moods instantly and then
Speaker 1: they take it on. You have a whole chapter book
Speaker 1: reclaiming your projections, and I think that might be related
Speaker 1: to what we're talking about. Right. It is, like I
Speaker 1: would put it, how can you reclaim yourself? Maybe in
Speaker 1: a way? I guess that's my question to you, is
Speaker 1: you know, if you're the type of person where you
Speaker 1: just always feel like you groundless or you don't know
Speaker 1: who yourself is because you're so influenced by others, can
Speaker 1: this help you reclaim that self? Definitely spending time with
Speaker 1: yourself and then being aware of when your attention drifts
Speaker 1: off to other people and keep coming back to yourself,
Speaker 1: and you can see some very interesting patterns and when
Speaker 1: your attention goes reaching for other people, because that becomes
Speaker 1: a regulation strategy in and of itself, and oftentimes it
Speaker 1: doesn't work very well. But if you can see the
Speaker 1: pattern of when you start to feel a little bit
Speaker 1: of distressed or when you start feeling overwhelmed by other
Speaker 1: people's emotions and come back to yourself, that can really
Speaker 1: help a lot. We've covered a lot of ground. You know,
Speaker 1: maybe something we haven't really touched on so much is
Speaker 1: how this can increase love for your enemies in a way,
Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of times where others look threatening, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: and how can this meditation maybe help you see the
Speaker 1: best in another person, not just in yourself? Does that
Speaker 1: question make sense? It does? Indeed. I talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about hostility attribution bias, the idea that basically, when
Speaker 1: someone does something that has a big impact on us,
Speaker 1: we're more likely to believe that they did it on
Speaker 1: purpose because of the impact, when in fact the other
Speaker 1: person might not even know what they did. And so
Speaker 1: a lot of that is being able to take yourself
Speaker 1: out of that experience and realizing what you're doing. And
Speaker 1: you know, oftentis people too us say well, I don't
Speaker 1: really you know, have a hustle bias, and I just think,
Speaker 1: but when's the last time your computer didn't work or
Speaker 1: your phone had a glitch in it and you thought
Speaker 1: like the phone or your GPS gave you the wrong
Speaker 1: directions and you actually thought that person that was giving
Speaker 1: directions was you know, somehow trying to mess with you, you
Speaker 1: you know, and you went in on a you know,
Speaker 1: on a detour that you weren't expecting. And so when
Speaker 1: something has a big impact on us, we tend to
Speaker 1: look at why and who who could have done this
Speaker 1: to us? So coming back to yourself realizing that you're that,
Speaker 1: you know, it's sort of like also, you know, separating
Speaker 1: out the impact of an event from them the intention
Speaker 1: of another person, because we oftentimes can't see other people
Speaker 1: clearly when we're in a state of defense, when we're
Speaker 1: in a state of over arousal. So being able to
Speaker 1: again have those skills to down or regulate and be
Speaker 1: open to the idea that people could look differently than
Speaker 1: you think they do. Oh boy, Yeah, that can also
Speaker 1: happen when you idolize others, right, Sometimes you know, we
Speaker 1: can put people on a pedestal and as well as
Speaker 1: demonize others, you know, we can have this kind of
Speaker 1: splitting with people. So this this fermentation, you think, can
Speaker 1: help give a broader sort of view of a human
Speaker 1: and it's and it's grander complex. Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1: And also, you know, I talk in the books some
Speaker 1: about self talk because some of it is a silent meditation,
Speaker 1: but you can also do self talk to try on
Speaker 1: different perspectives. So there's some very good research that shows
Speaker 1: that talking about things from a third person perspective can
Speaker 1: give you more insight into how you're feeling. So you
Speaker 1: can say, you know, Scott is feeling distressed because this
Speaker 1: and this happens. I'm feeling distressed because this happened. Gives
Speaker 1: you a bit of distance, and then the mirror adds
Speaker 1: an extra piece of distance because you're externalizing that internal dialogue,
Speaker 1: and then you're also taking the third person perspective. So
Speaker 1: the mirror is really just a tool that you can
Speaker 1: really use to shift your awareness and shift your perspective
Speaker 1: on how you're perceiving the events in your life. Which
Speaker 1: was my original question, how and why do people perceive
Speaker 1: reality differently? And how can we change that and make
Speaker 1: it more accurate and more humane? What a great question.
Speaker 1: So I'm now queering my mind. Would you like to
Speaker 1: do a two to five minute meditation? Sure meor meditation?
Speaker 1: Do you want to do it for the world? I
Speaker 1: do want to do it for the world, but I
Speaker 1: want to tell people if they're driving, don't do mere
Speaker 1: meditation for sure? Thank you, thank you for yeah. Yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: So when you do the meditation. What what you just
Speaker 1: want to do is find a way to have a
Speaker 1: mirror so you don't have to like pitch forward or
Speaker 1: grip it, and so you can see yourself clearly. So
Speaker 1: these days, I just have people, you know, turn their
Speaker 1: zoom camera on so that the cameras big enough to
Speaker 1: see themselves and use the camera as a mirror, and
Speaker 1: I just start with a little bit of a progressive relaxation,
Speaker 1: some three part breathing, and I asked you just gently
Speaker 1: close their eyes and feeling into your breath, noticing if
Speaker 1: your breath is all in your upper chest and the
Speaker 1: summits happens when we're on zoom camera or talking. See
Speaker 1: if you can take some belly breaths to expand your belly,
Speaker 1: rib cage and collar bones as you breathe in, and
Speaker 1: then gently contracting collarbones, rib cage and belly as you
Speaker 1: breathe out, and feeling your feet on the ground on
Speaker 1: crossing your arms and your legs and starting with the
Speaker 1: steel brief progressive relaxation, starting with the tips of your toes,
Speaker 1: relaxing your toes, imagining mud oozing between your toes, the
Speaker 1: balls of your feet, relaxing the balls and feet, letting
Speaker 1: them sink in your instep, your heels, relaxing your ankles,
Speaker 1: your calves, your knees, and your thighs, relaxing your hips
Speaker 1: and your lower back and your belly, relaxing your rib cage,
Speaker 1: your middle back, relaxing the front of your chest and
Speaker 1: your upper back, relaxing your shoulders, and noticing your hands,
Speaker 1: noticing your hands are gripping anything real or imagined, and
Speaker 1: seeing if you can just let that go, you can
Speaker 1: just drop whatever to the ground. Or sometimes I have
Speaker 1: people imagine that they're putting the important things on a
Speaker 1: shelf that they can pick up after and then relaxing
Speaker 1: your upper arms, your elbows, forearms, your wrists, hands, and fingertips.
Speaker 1: I'm bringing your attention up to the back of your neck,
Speaker 1: the front of your throat. Then focusing on your face,
Speaker 1: letting all the muscles in your face relax imagining your
Speaker 1: face is being like pelted by a waterfall or in
Speaker 1: the shower, and just letting all the muscles go slack.
Speaker 1: Gently parting your teeth, relaxing your jaw, your chin, your cheeks,
Speaker 1: your tongue, and your lips. Relaxing the muscles behind your eyes,
Speaker 1: muscles between your eyebrows, your forehead, and your scalp, relaxing
Speaker 1: your hair and your teeth and your ears, just letting
Speaker 1: everything go, and then when you feel ready, gently open
Speaker 1: your eyes and take a look, keeping your gaze soft,
Speaker 1: Noticing if you're breathing changes, noticing any first thought, Noticing
Speaker 1: the affective tone of looking at yourself. Is it negative? Positive?
Speaker 1: Do you feel happy, sad, angry? What is the general
Speaker 1: tone you have towards yourself as you look? There's no
Speaker 1: right or wrong way to do it. Also noticing if
Speaker 1: your attention tends to get very focused or fixated on
Speaker 1: some aspect of your appearance, and if you start to
Speaker 1: maybe want to tell a story about it or fix it,
Speaker 1: seeing if you can just let that go and just
Speaker 1: be really curious. Can you imagine that you might see
Speaker 1: yourself or see something about yourself that you don't already know,
Speaker 1: and keeping kind intention towards yourself. If you do notice
Speaker 1: yourself criticizing yourself, one of the things I recommend is
Speaker 1: to see if you can shift your attention from being
Speaker 1: the object of your criticism to being the receiver of it.
Speaker 1: Can you shift to see yourself as the person who's
Speaker 1: receiving these criticisms and how that might be affecting you,
Speaker 1: And so we would go on like this for some time.
Speaker 1: People can do this for ten minutes or longer. It's
Speaker 1: important to stay grounded and feeling your physical body as
Speaker 1: well as you're breathing. Some people can do this let's
Speaker 1: start to hallucinate they you know, like steer all into them,
Speaker 1: into the mirror and they almost start to get in
Speaker 1: doing it. So it's important if you're open, if you
Speaker 1: have a high openness to experience score, you can you
Speaker 1: can get into that absorption of looking at yourself. And uh, yes,
Speaker 1: I've I've had some great reports of people who claim
Speaker 1: to have morphed into all these different creatures and and
Speaker 1: and stuff, which is very interesting you know itself. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much Tara for for doing this. I
Speaker 1: think your work is really revolutionary. And I sure hope
Speaker 1: you'll come and and uh do a little guest lecture
Speaker 1: for my students this in the fall, do meditation for them.
Speaker 1: I think college students could really use this. Yes, so
Speaker 1: self critical, aren't they? They're so self critical? And also
Speaker 1: just you know, managing anxiety. This is an excellent technique
Speaker 1: for for managing anxiety, coming back to yourself, working with
Speaker 1: those negative, those critical thoughts. So look forward to having
Speaker 1: you come back to Bernard in the in the fust Yeah,
Speaker 1: thanks so much, Tara. Good luck with the book, and
Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the Psychology Podcast. Thank you for
Speaker 1: having me. It's been great. Thank you so much, Scott Pleasure.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to react in some way to something
Speaker 1: you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion
Speaker 1: at the Psychology podcast dot com. We're on our YouTube
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