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Speaker 1: On the Doodcast, the questions asked if movies have women

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Speaker 1: in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and best

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Speaker 1: start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hey, Jamie,

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Speaker 1: Hey Caitlin, you know how our husbands died in a

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Speaker 1: botched podcast episode? Or did they? Well we don't know

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Speaker 1: just yet, but let's assume that they did. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: do you want to maybe start our own podcast together? Wow?

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Speaker 1: But but not because we want our own podcast to

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Speaker 1: sort of like finish their unfinished podcast business. Right, we're

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Speaker 1: finishing their podcast. We're finishing their last podcast episode there,

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Speaker 1: and we have some people after us that if we

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Speaker 1: don't finish their podcast, they're gonna kill us. Sophie. If

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Speaker 1: we don't finish the podcast, she finds us and she

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Speaker 1: hunts us. But if we do successfully finish it, we're

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Speaker 1: going to be so rich. Oh well, obviously all podcasters

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Speaker 1: are extremely rich. Well, I feel pretty good about that intro.

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Speaker 1: I feel I thank you. I hope that I hope

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Speaker 1: everyone had a great time listening to it, because I

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Speaker 1: had a great time participating. Yeah, you're welcome, everybody. Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to very diplomatic Welcome to the Bechdel coust

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Speaker 1: My name is Caitlin Darante. My name is Jamie Loftus,

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Speaker 1: And this is our podcast about ruining movies that you

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Speaker 1: previously really enjoyed using an intersectional feminist lance, or in

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Speaker 1: some cases, celebrating pretty good movies. That's true. I guess

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Speaker 1: that that would have been a more appropriate setup for

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Speaker 1: this particular episode. But yeah, this is uh, this is

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Speaker 1: this is our damn podcast. You know, if you're if

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Speaker 1: you're just getting here, welcome, if you've been here for

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Speaker 1: a while, kick your feet up, baby, get comfortable. Because

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Speaker 1: it's the Widows episode. We've gotten a lot of requests

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Speaker 1: for I feel like we've been getting requests for this

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Speaker 1: episode since the movie came out almost three years ago now,

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Speaker 1: so it's been a long time coming and I'm so

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Speaker 1: excited to cover it. Same but hold on, what is

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Speaker 1: our podcast? Oh gee whiz. It's an examination of film

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Speaker 1: through an intersectional feminist lens, right where we use the

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Speaker 1: Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point to initiate

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Speaker 1: a larger conversation. And the Bechtel test, of course, is

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Speaker 1: a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes

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Speaker 1: called the Bechtel Wallace test that requires our variation on

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Speaker 1: the test is that two people of any marginalized gender

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Speaker 1: have to have names, they must speak to each other,

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Speaker 1: and their conversation has to be about something other than

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Speaker 1: a man. Ideally it is a meaningful, plot relevant conversation,

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Speaker 1: but if it's a two line exchange, we will consider it.

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Speaker 1: We go case by case. I don't think it's a

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Speaker 1: huge issue for this particular movie, but we've we've had

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Speaker 1: to really get in the weeds in the past, Caitlin.

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Speaker 1: I was realizing the other day that we've been on

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Speaker 1: this podcast longer than we were in high school. WHOA

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Speaker 1: how wild? And I feel like I've learned way more same.

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Speaker 1: So we're like I did in high school. We're like

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Speaker 1: super seniors because this is our fifth year of doing

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Speaker 1: the podcast. Yeah, with no end in sight, we're never

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Speaker 1: going to graduate. Uh fine, by me, Let's get our

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Speaker 1: guests in here, shall we. Let's do it. She is

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Speaker 1: a freelance journalist. She's had work published in Harper's Bazaar.

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Speaker 1: She's also a film student and aspiring filmmaker. It's Michael

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Speaker 1: Michelle Pratt. Hello and welcome, holcome, Hi, thank you for

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Speaker 1: having me. Know I'm a huge fan, and I'm really

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Speaker 1: excited h to be here, and I like, I love

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Speaker 1: this movie. So I'm very excited. We're so happy to

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Speaker 1: have you. We're so psyched. Uh So we're covering Widows.

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Speaker 1: It's a movie directed by Steve McQueen, screenplay by Steve

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Speaker 1: McQueen and Jillian's God damn it, I am a misogynist,

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Speaker 1: which is why I didn't double check her name before.

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Speaker 1: But either way, uh so, so Michael Michelle to get

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Speaker 1: stuff started. What is your history with this movie? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I wanted to go see in theaters. Uh. I

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Speaker 1: think it might have been I don't know it was

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Speaker 1: the opening weekend or the weekend after opening weekend. By

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Speaker 1: I thought with my mom, Um, I I like, I like,

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Speaker 1: I really like the late night shoving because I love

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Speaker 1: the trailer. Um, I think why all Davis is just

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Speaker 1: you know her existence, I just all the reformances if

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Speaker 1: for everything, I love her. Um, I'm not a huge

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Speaker 1: told me to Slafe you have, but I love everything

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Speaker 1: else take me. I think he's also really brilliant. Um.

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Speaker 1: And so I was just like I was like really

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Speaker 1: psyched for this and so I love the trailer and

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Speaker 1: when to go see it? Um and then it was

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Speaker 1: really mad. It was like me and my mom and

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Speaker 1: like one one other guy in the corner. I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is oh no one else was there. No, it

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Speaker 1: was like three of us just at this like awkwards

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Speaker 1: like eleven Black Night screening, and I was like, wow, okay.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I was like, what did your mom think?

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Speaker 1: So she she liked it, but she didn't like the

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Speaker 1: ending because she my mom hated like in being its endings.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, that's the fun of it because

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Speaker 1: they're like maybe they've become friends who don't know and

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Speaker 1: they've been like this whole this really tumultuous, traumatic future,

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Speaker 1: but they're kind a friend and it's cool and I

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Speaker 1: love it being the new films. That's like my thing.

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Speaker 1: But she was like, but she was like I wanted

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Speaker 1: like more closure of but that wasn't the point. But fine.

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Speaker 1: I was like you. I was like, you know, fine,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, she wouldn't and she wasn't really a fan

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Speaker 1: of the of the ending. But other than that, I

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Speaker 1: think I think she liked this. Yeah, nice Jamie, what

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Speaker 1: about you what's your relationship with the movie. Not too much.

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Speaker 1: I had seen it. I think I hadn't. I hadn't

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Speaker 1: seen it until Quarantine last year, but I had a

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Speaker 1: copy of it at my house. My my boyfriend's a

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Speaker 1: huge fan of this movie. He seen it like ten times.

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Speaker 1: It's like one of his comfort movies or even though

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Speaker 1: it's like not even that old of a movie, so

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Speaker 1: he was like, you're going to sit down with me

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Speaker 1: and watch it. Not very comforting either, No, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of stressful, but I have I don't know, I feel

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Speaker 1: like everyone has a stressful comfort movie where it's like

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Speaker 1: I can't exactly put my finger on why this would

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Speaker 1: bring me peace, but for some reason it does. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Titanic is definitely one of my comfort movies and also

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Speaker 1: not comforting at all and bodies are hitting the floor

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Speaker 1: the whole time. Um, but yes, I I just saw

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Speaker 1: it last year and now I think I've seen it

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Speaker 1: three times. And it's so it's already so interesting where

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Speaker 1: this movie is three years old, but I feel like

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Speaker 1: already having a little bit of distance from it. It's

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Speaker 1: really interesting to watch back because this was like immediately

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Speaker 1: after the Me Too movement started. Movie and I feel

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Speaker 1: like that is very present and how it was marketed

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Speaker 1: and already just with a couple of years of distance

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Speaker 1: from it. I really enjoyed the movie. It's like such

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Speaker 1: a blast. The cast is like, I can't think of

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Speaker 1: a more fun cast for a movie. And yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I feel like there's so much to talk about.

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Speaker 1: It's uh, it's it's a goddamn romp. Uh. What about you, Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: what's your history with this? I didn't see it in theaters,

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Speaker 1: but I saw it a few months later. You know,

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Speaker 1: I remember there being quite a bit of buzz about it,

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Speaker 1: and it won some awards, I think some BAFTA's, I believe.

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Speaker 1: Um so I this is a very British movie for

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Speaker 1: a movie that takes place in Chicago. I did not

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Speaker 1: know Steve McQueen was English until I really started reading

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Speaker 1: some stuff about him. Yeah. I don't know how I

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Speaker 1: missed that detail, but I did make the kind of

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Speaker 1: stray observation that there are a lot of British and

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Speaker 1: Irish actors in this movie playing Americans, between Colin Farrell,

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Speaker 1: Liam Neeson and Daniel Coloya. Yeah, like, once you know

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Speaker 1: Steve McQueen is from the UK. You're like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's why half of this cast is very much not

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Speaker 1: from Chicago. Yeah. Um so, anyway, I saw the movie.

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Speaker 1: I love a good heist movie, and Cynthia Arriva too

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Speaker 1: is British, I believe. Sorry, oh she Okay, I got it.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I thought it was a really well crafted

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Speaker 1: movie and I was excited to watch it again and

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Speaker 1: to discuss it right here on this EPISODEEP. Should we

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Speaker 1: get into the recamp, let's do it. Okay. So the

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Speaker 1: movie begins with a robbery that is taking place by

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Speaker 1: a team of four men. We also cut to like

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Speaker 1: quick glimpses of their home lives and we see them

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Speaker 1: with their wives, their wives, their wives. The ringleader is

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Speaker 1: Harry Rawlings. That's Liam Neeson. He is married to Veronica

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Speaker 1: Rawlings that is Viola Davis. The other other wives are

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Speaker 1: This is gonna be very hard for me to not

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Speaker 1: constantly do this. I mean that's literally the premise of

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Speaker 1: the movie. Like, I've their wives their dead husband's exactly

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Speaker 1: every first seconds, just they have to remind they're dead, right.

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Speaker 1: Uh So the other wives are Linda that's Michelle Rodriguez,

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Speaker 1: Alice that's Elizabeth DEBICKI, and I think of her as

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Speaker 1: Mrs Tennant. That's the only other thing I know her from.

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Speaker 1: She's really tall. She's really tall, and she was in Tennant.

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Speaker 1: I did not realize that was her, Yes, Tenant. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I blacked it all out, but she

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Speaker 1: was definitely in it. Good to know. I didn't see that.

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Speaker 1: How did that turn out? I know? Assaulted? How did

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Speaker 1: that know? How did that go? I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: feel like I would have had more fun if, like

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Speaker 1: if they had just like held onto it and released

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Speaker 1: it when people could go to theaters. But because it

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Speaker 1: was like I watched it at a drive in and

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Speaker 1: I had no idea what was happening. And I tried

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Speaker 1: to watch it on streaming and I was like, I

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Speaker 1: still have no idea, Like, I don't know. I saw

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Speaker 1: it in the comfort of my own home. Granted it

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Speaker 1: was in the middle of the night and I was

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Speaker 1: tired and falling asleep, but I didn't follow the story

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Speaker 1: at all. I think the world building is really confusing

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Speaker 1: and like not set up very well. But again, it

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Speaker 1: could have been that I was asleep, if hard Christopher Nolan, Okay,

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Speaker 1: here's my here's my hot take if Christopher Nolan is

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Speaker 1: so interested in time, why he has he wasted so

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Speaker 1: much of mine? And then imagine me dunking a basketball

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Speaker 1: and then not not just dropping a microphone, but like

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Speaker 1: throwing it across the room. The microphone explodes. Um, okay,

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Speaker 1: so we've met the other wife, so it's Linda Ellis

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Speaker 1: and then Amanda, also played by Carry Coon. Then we

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Speaker 1: see the robbery go all wrong. The men are shot

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Speaker 1: and killed and also exploded by cops. Yeah. I kind

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Speaker 1: of appreciated that they triple killed the guy. I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: so there's or at least I thought spoiler ahead, but

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Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, these guys are super dead. They

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Speaker 1: couldn't be deader just and they keep saying over and

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Speaker 1: over like they're just ye, just shot everywhere, just they

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Speaker 1: were on the ground. They keep reiterating to let you know,

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Speaker 1: like they're super dead, like they have to keep reiterating

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Speaker 1: it could not be less alive, to the point that

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Speaker 1: like later later when it's like the the big Gillian

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Speaker 1: Flynn style to whist comes up, you're kind of like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I guess that they like almost lay it on too

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Speaker 1: thick that they're super dead. You're like, oh, okay, I

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Speaker 1: fell for I totally fell for it. The first time

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Speaker 1: I saw this movie, I did not see the twist

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Speaker 1: coming at all. There Oh, no, me neither. I was

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Speaker 1: like what I was, I can't excuse me. I was like,

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Speaker 1: I was in the doorway. What right? Yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: a it was a solid twist. I feel like there's

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Speaker 1: so many twists, are so easy to predict. But gone

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Speaker 1: girl got us, Baby, she got us again, Gone girl,

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Speaker 1: Gillian gets us again. Wow, the alliteration is astounding, incredible. Headline. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so the men are shot and killed and exploded, meaning

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Speaker 1: the wives are now widows. That's the name of the movie. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Then we meet Jack Mulligan that's Colin Farrell, and we

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Speaker 1: meet Jamal Manning that's Brian Tyree Henry. They are both

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Speaker 1: politicians running for alderman of Chicago's eighteenth ward. I had

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Speaker 1: to look up what that was, and now I know

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Speaker 1: it's basically like a city council member. Right. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: never I never figured out with the actual office. What's

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Speaker 1: Every time I watched it, I'm like, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: some kind of political thing. I don't know exactly, but

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna I'm just like, something this up. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's some kind of office going on. I had to

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Speaker 1: read that elsewhere. I did not figure this out on

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Speaker 1: my own. I kind of wish they told you in

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Speaker 1: the movie because it's like, yeah, because it's not clear.

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Speaker 1: It is just like a city council and position. I

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Speaker 1: felt so I when I realized that both of their

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Speaker 1: initials were j M, I was like, oh, wow, makes

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Speaker 1: you think I got really excited. What does it mean?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I was just like that has

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Speaker 1: to be on purpose, right, Yeah, not not sure. So

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Speaker 1: they're running for Chicago's eighteenth Ward, which is a predominantly

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Speaker 1: low income black neighborhood. Jack is trying to get Jamal

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Speaker 1: to drop out of the race, but he refuses. We

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Speaker 1: also meet Jamal's brother, Ja Tem that's Daniel Coloya, and

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Speaker 1: we at some point around this time also meet Jack

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Speaker 1: Mulligan's father, Tom Mulligan, who is a career politician, full

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Speaker 1: on evil Robert. So we meet these politicians and then

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Speaker 1: some of their family. Right, So the Mulligan's are this

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Speaker 1: almost like Chicago Kennedy's, like just clinging to power but

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Speaker 1: don't actually care about anybody. Sort of family and then

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Speaker 1: Jamal is kind of like a I heard Steve McQueen

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Speaker 1: in an interview be like he's my Michael Corleone, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that kind of does make sense.

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Speaker 1: Like he's he's like a Godfather style guy, and it's

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Speaker 1: like the I don't know, Daniel Klliya, it seems like

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Speaker 1: is having so much fun in this movie, Like he's

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Speaker 1: having a blast his care he's scary. Yeah, yeah, what's

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Speaker 1: he made to be? He's so scart, He's so scart

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Speaker 1: with such little dialogue and it's all like the Pasha

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Speaker 1: and the shoulders and and you're so frightened. But when

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Speaker 1: he's doing all of his in commanding such space and

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Speaker 1: was staying that's a little I'm just every time I watched,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, but and you can tell he's enjoying all

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Speaker 1: of it, and it's just it's a great performance. And

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Speaker 1: he's such a talented actor. He's so good and it's

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Speaker 1: so fun to watch actors having fun, especially in sequences

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Speaker 1: like I mean, so many of his sequences are and

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Speaker 1: like mob movies are like has never really been my genre.

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Speaker 1: But it's like when someone is like, you know, Daniel

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Speaker 1: Khalia comes in the room. You're like, oh, he's going

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Speaker 1: to kill someone in a way that's really interesting to watch,

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Speaker 1: and it keeps happening. It's oh my god when he

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Speaker 1: kills the guy, and then he watches football when he

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Speaker 1: kills the guy while he's singing You're wild love it

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Speaker 1: um okay. So then we learn that the botched robbery

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Speaker 1: that we saw was Harry Rawlings and his team stealing

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Speaker 1: two million dollars from Jamal Manning, and that that money

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Speaker 1: burnt up in the explosion. Then we cut back to

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Speaker 1: the wives, the widows of the robbers morning their late husbands.

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Speaker 1: We meet Bash, that's Harry's driver. He gives Veronica a

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Speaker 1: key to a safety deposit box. This is something that

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Speaker 1: Harry wanted her to have if anything ever happened to him.

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Speaker 1: Then Jamal approaches Veronica. He knows that her husband stole

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Speaker 1: from him and he wants the two million dollars back.

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Speaker 1: He says that she has a month to liquidate her

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Speaker 1: assets and get that money to him. We've also, by

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Speaker 1: this point seen Jetam murder a couple of people, so

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Speaker 1: we know that these guys mean business and that the

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Speaker 1: stakes are very high for Veronica. She then goes to

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Speaker 1: the safety deposit box and inside is a notebook that

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Speaker 1: details Harry's next job, a five million dollar robbery. Um

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Speaker 1: So then Veronica contact the other widows. She has the

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Speaker 1: idea to work with them to pull off this five

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Speaker 1: million dollar heist so that she can take some of

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Speaker 1: that money and pay Jamal back and then they will

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Speaker 1: split the rest. So Linda and Alice show up, but

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Speaker 1: the other widow, Amanda, does not, so Veronica convinces Linda

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Speaker 1: and Alice to do this. It's established that they are

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Speaker 1: both struggling financially after the death of their husband's right,

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Speaker 1: they're not like as in immediate danger as Veronica. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem like which was one of my story issues

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Speaker 1: where I'm like, hmmm, if I were Michelle Rodriguez, i

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Speaker 1: might say no, thank you, I'm not interested. But I

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Speaker 1: was like the all time, I can't think. I was like,

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Speaker 1: does that seem like as pressing for you? So I

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Speaker 1: was like, I can't, Like if I could like not that,

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Speaker 1: I'd be like, you know, good financial security. I feel

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Speaker 1: like that like that is enough to like get you

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Speaker 1: into the premise and all of that. But but yeah,

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Speaker 1: as the movie was going on, and it was like

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, all these women cut Like. I know

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Speaker 1: that they're not going to die because movie, but like

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Speaker 1: the stakes are extremely high for what kind of is

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Speaker 1: Like Michelle Rodriguez is like, well, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: say I didn't do this because feminism. I was like,

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Speaker 1: but then your kids wouldn't have a parent. She does

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Speaker 1: have children, which you would think maybe she'd be like,

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Speaker 1: I can't get into this very risky, dangerous heist because

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Speaker 1: I might die. But I did buy that that she

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Speaker 1: and Alice were motivated enough to do it because of

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Speaker 1: their very precurious financial situation, So I don't know, know

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. Yeah, So anyway, the three of them

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Speaker 1: get to work on planning the heist. They need guns,

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Speaker 1: they need a van, They have a blueprint, but they

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Speaker 1: don't know where this house is, so there's a lot

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Speaker 1: that they have to acquire and figure out. So they

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Speaker 1: get to work on that. Meanwhile, the Manning's intimidate some

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Speaker 1: people that Veronica knows, basically trying to figure out what

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Speaker 1: she's up to. They kill bash her driver. So now

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Speaker 1: they have to find the football murder scene. That's a

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Speaker 1: football murder scene. I think that was my favorite. Daniel

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Speaker 1: Kolea can't be murder scene. I have a like a

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Speaker 1: whole kind of spiel about that, which we'll get to.

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Speaker 1: But um, yeah, interesting choices were made. Um. But the

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Speaker 1: bottom line is that they now have to find a

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Speaker 1: new getaway driver, which, um, Jamie you pointed out it's

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Speaker 1: Michelle Rodriguez. Yeah, so take it away. I was laughing

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Speaker 1: my head off when Michelle Rodriguez enters the scene and

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Speaker 1: she's like, we need a new driver. I was like,

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Speaker 1: speaking of people who would know a thing or two

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Speaker 1: about driving, Mrs Fast and Furious, I was, And then

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Speaker 1: they have her character. I feel like they like that

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Speaker 1: had to have been intentional that whenever someone is like

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Speaker 1: we need a driver, it's only Michelle Rodriguez being like

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Speaker 1: we needed drivers and cars. I'm like, yeah, exactly. We

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Speaker 1: love an Internet to neverdic universe. She is car Cannon.

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00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,920
Speaker 1: They need a crossover film to bring these two worlds together.

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Speaker 1: The Widows would fit right in in the Fast and

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Speaker 1: Furious Expanded Universe. I feel I think Rodriguez Universe, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that could be a thing. Okay, So then we get

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Speaker 1: a reveal that Harry Rawlings is still alive. He had

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Speaker 1: faked his death and it turns out that he's been

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Speaker 1: having an affair with Amanda, the widow who hasn't been

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Speaker 1: showing up, and he is sticking around for now to

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Speaker 1: I think, take the money that Veronica is planning to

350
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Speaker 1: steal that? What's that? I think? So that was a

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Speaker 1: little camp like where there were that twist was I

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Speaker 1: was very impressed with the twist. I just didn't see

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Speaker 1: it coming. But then I was like, wait a second,

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Speaker 1: huh where like Jack Mulligan is involved there on a boat,

355
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Speaker 1: Carrie Coon's involved, You're like, wait a second, what's the

356
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Speaker 1: end goal here? And then and then it didn't really

357
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Speaker 1: become story relevant. I was like at first when I

358
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Speaker 1: was like okay, I was like I was surprised. But

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Speaker 1: then they after the boat and I was like, how

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Speaker 1: no one so no one's aware of this? How is

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Speaker 1: how was he able to get him just? I was like,

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Speaker 1: that was right. I was like, this is a little

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Speaker 1: distant now. Yeah, I also am unclear about So the

364
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 1: initial job that goes wrong is them stealing from Jamal

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Speaker 1: Manning like on behalf of Jack Mulligan, But then Harry's

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Speaker 1: next job was stealing from Jack Mulligan on behalf of

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Speaker 1: someone I don't know. Yeah, I feel like Harry. Harry

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00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 1: doesn't vote, Like I feel like he doesn't care who

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Speaker 1: wins or who loses. But yeah, like I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Maybe a listener will like point something out and there's

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Speaker 1: something very clear that I wasn't seeing, but involving the politicians.

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Speaker 1: On top of like that, I just felt like a

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Speaker 1: hat on top of a hat, and I got confused.

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Speaker 1: And then again it's like, all I guess technically, all

375
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Speaker 1: you really need to know is that Harry is alive

376
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Speaker 1: and he was cheating on Veronica. But it was, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a little confusing. We also get a flashback

378
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Speaker 1: where we learn about Harry and Veronica's son Marcus, and

379
00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: we learned that he was pulled over and then shot

380
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Speaker 1: to death by cops. We cut back to the President.

381
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 1: The widows figure out where the blueprints are four a

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Speaker 1: K the house that they plan to break into, and

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Speaker 1: it turns out to be Jack Mulligan's house. Then Linda A. K.

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Speaker 1: Michelle Rodriguez, She's like, we need a driver, and then

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Speaker 1: she finds a driver. Well, I mean, who else is

386
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: gonna do it? In Diesel, He's not in the movie.

387
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Speaker 1: She recruits her babysitter Belle played by Cynthia Arrivo to

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Speaker 1: be their getaway driver, and she and Veronica scope out

389
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Speaker 1: Jack's house. Um. They do a little reconnaissance type stuff.

390
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Speaker 1: Then it is time for the heist. Is the same

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Speaker 1: night as the debate between Jack Mulligan and Jamal Manning.

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Speaker 1: The women get to the house, they make their way in,

393
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Speaker 1: they grabbed the five million dollars. Tom Mulligan a k.

394
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Speaker 1: Robert Duval tries to stop them. They shoot him and

395
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Speaker 1: kill him in a death that no one has ever

396
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: cared about less than the entire right. We're like, good ridden,

397
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Speaker 1: You're like I was okay, Yeah, You're like, you raise

398
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Speaker 1: this piece of ship. It's just a fringe benefit to

399
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 1: this highest is that we killed the worst characters. Yeah.

400
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Speaker 1: She's like, oh yeah, by um. So they kill him,

401
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: but then Alice gets shot in the process. They have

402
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,640
Speaker 1: to kind of scramble to get away to tem hijacks

403
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 1: their van as they're getting away, but then they follow

404
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: him in another vehicle they crashed into him. They get

405
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 1: the money back and it seems like they've successfully pulled

406
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Speaker 1: off the heist. They drop Alice off at the er

407
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: and then Veronica goes back to like whatever garage warehouse

408
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: place is their rendezvous point. But who shows up but

409
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 1: Harry Rawlings and he's there to take the money she stole,

410
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Speaker 1: and she's like, you fucking bastard, and he's about to

411
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Speaker 1: shoot her, but she shoots and kills him first. Great moment. Yeah,

412
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Speaker 1: and then we tie up some loose ends with Belle

413
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Speaker 1: and Linda, and then the movie ends with Veronica running

414
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Speaker 1: into Alice, who survived her gunshot. It's implied that it's

415
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: several weeks or months later. They share a little moment

416
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Speaker 1: where Veronica is like, how are you doing? Cinema? And

417
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: also Alice has learned to drive at that point, because

418
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Speaker 1: we learned earlier in the movie that she didn't know

419
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Speaker 1: how to drive, But then we see her getting into

420
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Speaker 1: the driver's seat of a car, so it's like, I

421
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Speaker 1: guess Alice learned to drive. Good for her full arc

422
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: of an amazing arc. That's the story. So let's take

423
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: a quick break and then we will come right back

424
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: to discuss. And we're back. Where shall we start. I

425
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: kind of want to get I'm tempted to get the

426
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: stuff that we didn't like out of the way first,

427
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: or the more critical elements and then we can kind

428
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: of move into the stuff that was fine. Can I start, yes,

429
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: please go ahead, I have a gripe. I think it's

430
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: the second act where Michelarity gets character of Linda. She's

431
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: she's going she's going to go and she's kind of um,

432
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 1: she's going to go visit the man to go to

433
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: go steal the the prince kind of she's so she's

434
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: pretending basically, UMA know this man's wife, and then he

435
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: kind of and then he kind of figured out that

436
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: that she doesn't um, and then she kind of reveals,

437
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: you know, that she has lost her husband. And then

438
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 1: they like odd they like to make out, and I

439
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 1: was like, how did this? This isn't really this is

440
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: an advanced in the plot. I don't I first said.

441
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 1: I was like, I was like, oh, she's doing this

442
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: like fake him out to get the blueprint. But then

443
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: I realized, wait, or is it like phase value? And

444
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: they just like awkwardly made out, and then it kind

445
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 1: of seen out of character because I was like, what

446
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 1: did she do that? And I was like and I

447
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,479
Speaker 1: was like, how I just didn't do anything going forward?

448
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: So we're just sitting here and this is awkward and

449
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: I was like, this is always so time. I almost

450
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: forgot that that even happened. Yeah, that was an interesting

451
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: moment that I felt like that could have been something

452
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: more exploratory of like grief and all this other stuff,

453
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: but then it just kind of ended up being confusing

454
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: and like whatever. It's it's not like people don't trauma

455
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: bond over certain life events and things get weird sometimes

456
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: like that definitely happens. I'm not opposed to seeing that

457
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: in a movie, but you're totally right, Michael Mitchelle where

458
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: it's like it didn't advance the plot at all, and

459
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: then it to me kind of came off as like

460
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: they were just having Michelle Rodriguez's character like use her

461
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: like womanly Wiles so like advance the plot. And I

462
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: don't know, I feel like, yeah, there there were I

463
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: feel like there were better options there on how to

464
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: or it's like if you're going to make that choice,

465
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: then like like you're saying, like, have it have more

466
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: consequence and actually explore it versus like just this very

467
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: bizarre I mean, it's like it didn't even come up

468
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: in the summary because it's so kind of like that

469
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: could have end on point, could have happened in so

470
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: many different ways. Yeah. Yeah. Every time I've seen this movie,

471
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: my reaction is always like huh, because then I expected

472
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: seemed to keep going a little bit and then for

473
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: him to be like, okay, here, I'll we kissed, so

474
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: I'll help you out, which also I guess that would

475
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: have weird implications to probably be kind of lazy too, Yeah,

476
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: kind of just bizarre. Yeah, so I guess I'm more

477
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: find that it cut well narratively. It's weird that it

478
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: doesn't go anywhere. But if it was that she was like, well,

479
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to seduce, like basically exploit the grief I

480
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: feel about my husband to manipulate and seduce this man,

481
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: like that would also have been weird and probably not great.

482
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: It's like who among us hasn't made out with a

483
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: Rando when they were sad about something. But it was

484
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: just like the way it was introduced was like, yeah,

485
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: I felt that say way, Kaitlin, where you're like huh,

486
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: but then it never comes back, so I don't know shrug.

487
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: One thing that stuck out to me. I had a

488
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: few things with this movie that felt just I don't know,

489
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: and it's like it is nippicky because over all the

490
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: movies super enjoyable. I'm so glad, like I will absolutely

491
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: be watching it again. Um. In terms of like the

492
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: the political side of it, there were some parts of

493
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: the Jack Mulligan jamal Man in conflict that I thought

494
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: were like so well executed and so well done, and

495
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: a lot of it was like in the photography where

496
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: there's that amazing shot where you're watching Jack Mulligan leave

497
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: the eighteenth District and drive to his fucking McMansion talking

498
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: about how little he cares, Like that's so that's brilliant,

499
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: Like that might be that might be my favorite team

500
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: in the movie. I think it's that tracking shot and

501
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: you can't see them and you're just hearing the dialogue

502
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: as they're moving forward. I just I was like, it's brilliant. Yeah,

503
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: And it's like once you realize where that's going, it's amazing.

504
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: And it's like, so you know, obviously like such so

505
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: unfortunately something that happens in local like in local and

506
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: national politics constantly, and I thought it was so well executed.

507
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: I guess the thing that I that kind of chafed

508
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: me with that plotline was I appreciate and I totally

509
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: like how the movie and the script really gets into

510
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: this whatever Kennedy asked, Chicago family that are just like

511
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: these rich white guy that are clinging onto power. And

512
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: I mean the Robert Duval character in some ways is

513
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: like a cartoonist example of of the like extreme lengths

514
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: that these kind of legacy white families what they'll do

515
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: to hold onto power. And I wish that we got

516
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: that same amount of attention to detail with the Mannings,

517
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: because I feel like we got a lot of information

518
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: about the Mulligan's. I felt like you really understood what

519
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 1: the movie was trying to say about that, like that

520
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: kind of political dynasty, and I wish that there was

521
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: because we spend a lot of time with Jamal Manning

522
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: and with is to Tim to time, I think I

523
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: just kept being like dlue, yeah, but but but with

524
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: with those brothers, But I feel like you don't find

525
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: out as much about them as you do. Like I

526
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: felt like I knew way more about the Mulligan's than

527
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: I did about the Mannings, and I wish that that

528
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: had been more of and even handed plotline because I

529
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: loved I mean, I'm very interested in your thoughts on

530
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: the the murder scenes that kind of are taken out

531
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: because at first I wasn't sure where to fall in it,

532
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: and I went to watch just some interviews with Steve

533
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: McQueen to see like what his kind of motivation was

534
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: with those, and once it became clear that he's like, oh,

535
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: I'm doing like these are Godfather, this is my Godfather scene,

536
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, Like once I made that connection,

537
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: it made more sense to me. But I still feel like,

538
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: you know, with The Godfather, you know a shipload about

539
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: that family, and so it's like when those murder scenes

540
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: take place, you thoroughly know who those characters are, what

541
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: their motivations are, and then you see something really fucked up,

542
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: and I feel like the Mannings didn't get that. I

543
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: don't know what what what did y'all think? I felt

544
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: like a lot of the impact of that it's a

545
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: lot has a lot to do with with Daniel's performance,

546
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: but but it's not necessarily because of the writing, and

547
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: so I don't feel like I feel I feel like

548
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: it could have been more impactful if, like you said,

549
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: if you knew, if he knew about their motives, and

550
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: I thought about I feel like after the first scene,

551
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: after we first meet him. When he first meeting Um character,

552
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 1: you don't he kind of said a little bit beforehand,

553
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: after him Indiana's character Kum talking about his motivation to

554
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 1: kind out front, But after that, you don't really see

555
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: or hear a lot about about how about how he's

556
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,439
Speaker 1: kind of feeling at the works, prograssing really or really

557
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: like anything about his back story. And so I was

558
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: I was like, visually, that's great, but I don't feel

559
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 1: as connectical as I could if I knew why that's

560
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: what's happening totally. Yeah. There's a scene pretty early on

561
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 1: between the two brothers where jattem which, by the way,

562
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: there's a funny joke, where isn't that like French for

563
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: I love you? Yeah? I guess it would be more

564
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: pronounced like Tim. But that's what that's what Jack Mulligan

565
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: thinks Jatima is saying when he's introducing himself, because then

566
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: he says, I love you too. I didn't even pick

567
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: up on that, And then Daniel Killerya is just like

568
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: what but um, anyway, j Tim is talking to his

569
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: brother and he's like, why do you even want to

570
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 1: get into politics? And then Jamal sites, well, yeah, I mean,

571
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: an alderman makes whatever salary per year and a times like,

572
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: well we make that in a week, implied that like

573
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: they're kind of like criminal activity was way more lucrative.

574
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 1: And then he's saying, well, yeah, but you stand to

575
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: make a lot more money with different contracts and you know,

576
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,839
Speaker 1: like building developments and blah blah blah this stuff. And

577
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: when that happens, people come after you with cameras and

578
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: microphones versus before when when we were doing what we

579
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: were doing, people were coming after us with guns and

580
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 1: I'm thirty seven, Like, I don't want that life anymore.

581
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 1: So it's established that part of Jamala's motivation is he

582
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: kind of like wants to quote unquote straighten out um

583
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: or like you know, live a more virtuous life, I guess,

584
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: which is hilarious to think of as a politician. Um right,

585
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,280
Speaker 1: if you're like, yeah, sure, the city council really doing

586
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 1: the good work, right, but um, I mean, and that's

587
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: like really interesting insight. And I wish we then got

588
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 1: more information like that, But as far as I can remember,

589
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,760
Speaker 1: there wasn't much else in the way of that type

590
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: of characterization for the Mannings. No, And I was kind

591
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 1: of surprised because it's like it is such a rich

592
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: set up and I feel like, especially like Jamal and

593
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 1: Jettam are such compelling characters and both played by fucking

594
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: unbelievable actors, and then there's not enough backstory given to

595
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: really like, I felt like, bring those characters to have

596
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: the impact that they could have and should have. The

597
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 1: other main gripe I had with this movie revolves around

598
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: the character of Bobby Welsh. He is the character who

599
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: owns the Bowling Alley. He is a friend slash associate

600
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: of Harry Rawlings. He seems to know about the like

601
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: various robberies that he pulls off. The character uses a wheelchair,

602
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 1: but the actor Kevin J O'Connor does not, So another

603
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: example of a able bodied actor playing a disabled character.

604
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: Just how disabled at it? Just they exist there there.

605
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,479
Speaker 1: It can't be a little struggle. I just why it's

606
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: not hard, couldn't be easier. They're out there. And then

607
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: the other thing with this character is that we see

608
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: him being brutalized in a way that is very specific

609
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 1: to the character's disability because he is shoved out of

610
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: his wheelchair. He is then stabbed in the legs several

611
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 1: times by j Tem because ja Tem knows that he

612
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: can't feel it because he's paralyzed from his waist down.

613
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: It's a very long, drawn out scene, and I guess

614
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: the function of the scene is to just show how

615
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,919
Speaker 1: relentless and dangerous Jettem is. But we already know that

616
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: because we've seen him a people He made yeah, I

617
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: mean he was making those two guys freestyle and then

618
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 1: killed the mid freestyle, like we know that he is

619
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: d t K. He's down to kill. It felt unnecessarily long,

620
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: and every time I watched it, I have to just

621
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,959
Speaker 1: give it. I'm like, I can't it just it feels

622
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 1: unnecessarily cool, and I'm like, I'm not I'm not gonna

623
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: sit here and I'm not gonna see her here, and

624
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 1: and watched this, I can't. Yeah, I can't do it totally.

625
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: Especially it feels I think it might be a trope

626
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: at this point in media, where a disabled character is

627
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: very unnecessarily brutalized. And then I was foreshadowing this earlier,

628
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,399
Speaker 1: but the scene where Jamal comes in and like his

629
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: guys kill bash. Compare this scene with the way that

630
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 1: the Bobby Welsh character is brutalized to the Bash scene,

631
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: because all the violence in the Bash getting killed scene

632
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: is implied off screen. It happens off screen because then

633
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: you pan over to which attem watching football and you

634
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 1: only like hear the violence but you don't see it.

635
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: So like just that dichotomy of like we see a

636
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 1: long scene of a character with a disability being brutalized

637
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: versus in that very specific way, yes, yeah, versus the

638
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: able bodied character that happens off screen, and that just

639
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 1: felt very unnecessary and gross and didn't like it. I

640
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: think also if it felt like the attack for the

641
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: diity of character felt felt very specific to that disability,

642
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: and then and then to keep showing it over and

643
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: over on camera, it felt like it's kind of taking

644
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: away the dignity from the character as opposed to say,

645
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: a body character and giving him the dignity. I'm not

646
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: having us watch it. I was just like that was

647
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: really unnecessary, right, yeah, And I mean and it's even

648
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 1: from I mean, I feel like the more you get

649
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 1: into it is like, even from a story perspective, those

650
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,760
Speaker 1: two choices feel very pointed because you would think Bash

651
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: is a character that we know much better, So the

652
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: impact of seeing him get killed on screen would theoretically

653
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: be greater than watching Bobby, a character we barely know,

654
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: be brutalized for in a much longer scene, like you

655
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,399
Speaker 1: were both saying, and so it does kind of come

656
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: down to I don't know. I mean, it's I it's

657
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:43,439
Speaker 1: hard because it's like I don't want to come down

658
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: hard on this movie. But like that choice, You're totally right.

659
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's very, very pointed, and it doesn't

660
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: even make it. It makes no story sense. There's no

661
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: there's no real argument for any of it to happen. Yeah,

662
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,720
Speaker 1: my last Okay, so this is kind of, I guess

663
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: gets us into what we will probably be talking about

664
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: a lot more, which is the Widows. So let's let's

665
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: get into Widows. I okay, I was genuinely I I

666
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: read um, I watched the whole movie through, was taken

667
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: my little notes and by the end of the movie.

668
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: Let me know if I'm off here from being like

669
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: overly picky, I felt like the widows did not know

670
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: each other well enough. I was not like they weren't

671
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: friends ever. And that is not really a Bechtel Cast

672
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: style criticism. I feel like it's more of a story

673
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: criticism for me where I read a really good piece

674
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: from a Vice writer named Amor Mercer who did kind

675
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,879
Speaker 1: of a comparative study between Widows and set it Off,

676
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 1: a movie that we've covered on the show and is

677
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: so good and it it's, you know, an all female

678
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: highst It's it's incredible and is dealing with some I mean,

679
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: it's definitely not a one to one comparison, but I

680
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: don't know. As I was just reading her kind of

681
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: comparative essay between the two movies, I was like, oh, yeah,

682
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: part of I mean, there's so many things that makes

683
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 1: Set It Off a compelling movie to watch, but a

684
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 1: lot of it is like the relationships between the women

685
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: performing the highest and how their relationships grow and change

686
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,879
Speaker 1: over the movie. I felt like it's just like so

687
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: well done and so when as things continue to happen,

688
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: you really feel it. And I didn't quite feel that

689
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: kind of like connection between the widows where they're definitely

690
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: like their relationships develop, but then there were some relationships

691
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 1: that felt kind of forced to me or like they

692
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 1: didn't totally make sense or I don't know, I just

693
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 1: I this is maybe just like a personal taste thing

694
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: but I'm like, I wish that I understood how they

695
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: felt about each other a little more. It felt a

696
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: little vague to me. No, I I feel the same

697
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: way in that. Yeah, I agree that one of the

698
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: most compelling things about Set It Off is the relationship.

699
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: And honestly, any kind of like get the team together

700
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: and pull law job kind of movie, you usually get

701
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: a lot of tension and intrigue and theme and comic

702
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: relief and a lot of the things that like make

703
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,439
Speaker 1: a story great from the relationship between the characters, and

704
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: we obviously see them interact quite a bit, although there

705
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: is an awful lot of screen time dedicated to like

706
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: Jack Mulligan and other characters I don't care about and

707
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 1: I hate. But I was like, yeah, I would have

708
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: liked to see more interaction between the widows and just

709
00:43:54,920 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: more screen time dedicated to the way those relationships develop up.

710
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: And yeah, it felt like there was a lot of

711
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 1: like I mean, and again it's like it's a romp,

712
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: it's a movie, Like I get it, But but there

713
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:09,399
Speaker 1: was a lot of like, I feel like, the main

714
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: thing you got out of them talking was kind of

715
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:16,879
Speaker 1: surface level class discussion, which is which is worthwhile and

716
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 1: I'm glad that it happened, but it sort of just

717
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,280
Speaker 1: felt like some of the only interactions between certain pairs

718
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: in the um in the Widows universe was like, oh, okay,

719
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: so Alice and Linda they're both working class, and so

720
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: they're going to have a three line exchange about how

721
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: they're working class and they feel like Veronica doesn't get it,

722
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 1: and then you don't really get much more with those characters.

723
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: They just sort of established, like we have this thing

724
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: in common, but then it doesn't really I don't know,

725
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 1: I just wish that like some of those issues got

726
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: more explored, and it felt like some things were like

727
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: stated but then not really followed through on. I don't know.

728
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like a lot of the classes,

729
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: I feel like we're discussed more. What's the political storyline?

730
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: I feel like Widows and I was like, oh, I

731
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: thought it was interesting. I like to be able to

732
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 1: handle both. But I was like, but the primary story

733
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: is the Widow, so why not or why not have

734
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: them converge more. That's a great point. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

735
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 1: because it's like I mean, it's not like the characters

736
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: that are established wouldn't be able to like very easily

737
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: have those conversation. But You're totally right. It's like we

738
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: see Jack and Jamal have those discussions more in depth

739
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: than we see some of the widows have those. I

740
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,720
Speaker 1: totally agree with that, and I feel like there were

741
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: I feel like we got to know Veronica and Alice well,

742
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: and then the other two women we did not really

743
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 1: find very much out about, to the point where it

744
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: was like their arcs weren't didn't feel like they were

745
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 1: as impactful, because I mean, it's like, what do we

746
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: really know about Michelle Rodriguez's character other than she's now

747
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: a single mom of two who used to own a

748
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: business but now it doesn't like that's kind of it.

749
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: She doesn't really have any depth beyond that, And it

750
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 1: would almost it would almost kind of sees what if

751
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: she maybe maybe if she want to mention but but

752
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: was still kind of more involved and had screen time,

753
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: but she doesn't really have preetime either, and then they

754
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: kind of have her bringing another character, Valdas, also doesn't

755
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,919
Speaker 1: really get dimensions, So I'm like, you had I want

756
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: a character that doesn't get dimention thing they get to mention,

757
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 1: and so they just kind of just kind of floating

758
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: and I thought it was interesting the way that they

759
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 1: had bell and and Ronda kind of face off to

760
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,280
Speaker 1: it when she's introduced and she kind of asserts herself

761
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 1: and is like freaking directly off, like okay, it's interesting

762
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: like contrast. But but then she gets at the car

763
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: and just kind of leaves, and I was like, she's

764
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: so you're just so we're just we're not going to

765
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 1: explore okay, all right, right, It's like Cynthia Rivo is

766
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: like so unbelievably talented, and but like her character comes

767
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 1: in forty five minutes into the movie, I think, and

768
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 1: then it's like, oh, we're gonna have to play catch up.

769
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: We've got to like we've got to get her really

770
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: involved if she's gonna you know. But but then it's

771
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 1: like they don't really follow through on that where I

772
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: really liked how that sequence with her getting to the

773
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 1: second job was composed, and like that was another really

774
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 1: cool cinematography moment where she gets home and she sees

775
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 1: her daughter for a second, but then she gets a

776
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 1: call from it turns out Michelle Rodriguez saying, Hey, I

777
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 1: need a sitter, and she's in such financial straits that

778
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: she has to run to catch the bus to get

779
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: to a second job, and I was like, that was

780
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: such a well executed sequence and sets her character and

781
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 1: her kind of predicament up, But then where does it go?

782
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,839
Speaker 1: Like I feel like, yeah, her character deserved a more

783
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 1: complete arc and like more relations chips with the women

784
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 1: she was around, and it just felt like, I don't know.

785
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that there are kind of two

786
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: movies going on inside of this movie, which I'm not

787
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: opposed to, but it's like the movie is called Widows.

788
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: I would like to know about the widow Widows. Yeah,

789
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,399
Speaker 1: I have to imagine that part of that is a

790
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:25,320
Speaker 1: byproduct of the movie being adapted from a TV series.

791
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 1: It's adapted from a nineteen eight three British TV series

792
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 1: also called Widows from I think like writer creator Linda

793
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: la Plant and that was a several episode narrative. I

794
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: haven't seen it, and I don't know much about the series,

795
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 1: so I don't know exactly what was like lifted from

796
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 1: that and put into this adaptation, or you know, what

797
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 1: was left out. But I I wonder if some of

798
00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:01,280
Speaker 1: what feels kind of condensed and it's just like thoroughly developed,

799
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: is because there's like actually more story than a feature

800
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: length film has time to tell. I don't know, I'm

801
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: not gonna let them quite get away with that. Well, yeah,

802
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 1: I don't think it's an excuse, but I think it's

803
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 1: maybe like a reason. I did a little bit of

804
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 1: research on it. I did not watch the series. I

805
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: was unable to find it, but um I did. I

806
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: watched a bunch of interviews with Steve McQueen, and I

807
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: guess that he had really wanted to adapt this series specifically.

808
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: I guess it's something he saw when he was a

809
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 1: kid and he was like really into it, and he

810
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: gave we can link to this interview, but um, he

811
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: was really compelled by the mini series when he was

812
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: a kid, because I think it's like equally hit upon

813
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: in that eighties mini series that a lot of the

814
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 1: reason that the widows are able to get away with

815
00:49:55,520 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: this heist is because they're underestimated by everyone around them,

816
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: because they're women, because they're women. And Steve McQueen gave

817
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: an interview where he was like, and I really connected

818
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 1: to that because I was a young black kid growing

819
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 1: up in London and I felt like I was also

820
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: constantly underestimated and so it was a story that really

821
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: resonated with me, even though it wasn't like a one

822
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 1: to one thing, And so I thought like his connection

823
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: to the story was really cool, and that Gillian Flynn

824
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 1: was brought in was like also interesting. And but I

825
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 1: don't really like, yeah, I don't, I don't know. I

826
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: it seems like, I mean, the original source material seems

827
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 1: pretty different in that, like the basic premise is the same,

828
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 1: but Steve McQueen and Jillian and Gillian Flynn have changed

829
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: the setting, they have changed the time period, They've changed

830
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,399
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. So I feel like they had

831
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,879
Speaker 1: already taken enough creative updating and liberties to kind of

832
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,879
Speaker 1: course correct some of this stuff that And I mean

833
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 1: it's like we don't who knows the kind of studio

834
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 1: notes movies like highst movies go through and in any

835
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 1: movies go through. So I'm not saying it's like all

836
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: on them, but there were certain things that was like

837
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: they've already changed a lot about the source material, so

838
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 1: why not give half of the widows a story? Like

839
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, I don't know. Um, let's take

840
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: a quick break and then we'll come back for more

841
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 1: discussion and we're back. Um, should we get into what

842
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:39,800
Speaker 1: works more effectively in this movie, such as it's fun

843
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 1: and I like it this I suppose it is a romp,

844
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: but it's more it's a way darker, more serious romp

845
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:52,280
Speaker 1: than I usually associate with romps. It's a serious romp.

846
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: It's a heavy romp. Yeah, yeah, But I mean I

847
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: find it really cool and compelling that there's a lot

848
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: of commentary being made throughout the movie on things like class, race,

849
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: and gender, because a lot of heist movies do not

850
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 1: bother with any kind of social commentary. It's usually just

851
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: a bunch of white guys who decide to steal money

852
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:22,399
Speaker 1: for sometimes no reason, or sometimes it's because, you know,

853
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:26,919
Speaker 1: George Clooney wants to have a dick measuring contest with

854
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,879
Speaker 1: Andy Garcia for example. That is I mean, I am

855
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 1: still waiting for that movie where a diverse group of

856
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 1: women steal a bunch of ships for no reason, Like

857
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: I feel like that is deserved because it's like I

858
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:46,439
Speaker 1: was thinking about, like this movie and Oceans eight, where

859
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: it's like their reasons for stealing are still virtuous enough

860
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 1: that they're not like evil people, or it's like what

861
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 1: let the women be evil, just like no one asks

862
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 1: why George Clooney wants this money. Can't Viola Davis just

863
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 1: steal two million dollars, just let her do it. But this,

864
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 1: I like that this movie does what it does. I

865
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 1: totally agree, and I think also I think what I say,

866
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: I do kind of like that they're not friends in

867
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 1: a way. I kind of what does when I think

868
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 1: I thought was school, I felt I feel like a

869
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 1: lot of I feel like a lot of temo the fact.

870
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: Now it's like, oh, they're all somehow interconnected and they're

871
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 1: all friends. But I do kind of like, I think

872
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 1: I like that this I felt like what was the

873
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 1: most ground in reality? I felt like and I felt

874
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 1: that these women just aren't friends, but they did come

875
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:35,800
Speaker 1: together in the for survival. That what I got? What

876
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: do you like? And then and then I do other things.

877
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: I do think. I do think the crime was kind

878
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 1: of heavy butody, but I do feel he's able to

879
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,240
Speaker 1: hand on the boat without dropping the ball on either

880
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: really so at the run times, I feel those are

881
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 1: definitely my favorite's my favorite aspect. Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.

882
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:01,479
Speaker 1: And then we also like see them fumble and they

883
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: you know, Michelle rock Riguez is like, what the hell

884
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 1: am I supposed to do with this blueprint? And Veronica

885
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,479
Speaker 1: is like, by being smarter than you are being right now.

886
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: So it's it's cool that like we see them come

887
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: together under these high stakes circumstances and have to figure

888
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 1: it out along the way, right, and have like realistic conflict,

889
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: right because like even though this is what like their

890
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 1: husbands did professionally, like they are not trained skilled high stirs, thieves, etcetera.

891
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,319
Speaker 1: That training was also one of my favorite parts of

892
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 1: the movie because she just Veronic could just sounds like

893
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 1: this really I like Jim Teacher and they're just like,

894
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: we hate you, and I'm just like there was some

895
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 1: I don't know if either of you watched. I didn't.

896
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 1: I watched like the first two or three seasons, but

897
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: How to Get Away with Murder, But there were some

898
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,439
Speaker 1: moments in this movie that I was like, oh, this

899
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 1: is like full on Analy's keating moments where it's just

900
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 1: like Viola Davis is like, why are you incompetent? Which

901
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,880
Speaker 1: is basically that entire show. Oh my god. My favorite.

902
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 1: One of my favorite exchanges is when Veronica is like,

903
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 1: here's two thousand dollars, get some guns, and Alice is like, guns,

904
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: where am I going to get guns? And Veronica was like,

905
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 1: this is America, a k you can get guns like

906
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 1: everywhere out literally. That was also also one of my

907
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:33,879
Speaker 1: favorite things I think was the gun things I got. Also,

908
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 1: it was really um interesting kind of like to square

909
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 1: Alf's character. I think also was really when she approaches

910
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 1: that woman and like pretends to be I think a

911
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 1: mail order bride, and the little girl is like, Mommy,

912
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,800
Speaker 1: you always said a gun is a girl's best friend,

913
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 1: and You're like, oh no, this woman is like indoctrinating

914
00:55:55,960 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: her young daughter into like toxic gun culture already. But

915
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 1: then also you think about, like, well, what is their

916
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:07,319
Speaker 1: background in personal history, and like what motivations would that

917
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 1: mother have for her daughter to want to be able

918
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 1: to defend herself. Like It's which I feel like also

919
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 1: connects directly to Alice's character, who is like there's so

920
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:23,439
Speaker 1: much time put into like the various ways in which

921
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: Alice has been traumatized to the point where it's like

922
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 1: I felt I felt a lot of Gillian Flynn coming

923
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,359
Speaker 1: through with that Alice character, where and this isn't even

924
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,800
Speaker 1: really a criticism, but just like this is a subject

925
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 1: matter that Gillian Flynn seems to take on frequently in

926
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 1: her work, which is like mother daughter trauma and like

927
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:48,799
Speaker 1: toxic cycles between mothers and daughters specifically, which I think

928
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: is kind of an under explored topic in media in general,

929
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:54,959
Speaker 1: where it's like we make the joke on this show

930
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 1: that like every movie is about fathers and sons. But

931
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 1: with Alice, it's like the the kind of like core

932
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 1: of her character is that she was abused and manipulated

933
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 1: by her mother and also by her husband, and like

934
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 1: has this gigantic kind of crisis of self esteem and

935
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 1: confidence in sense of self because she has been so

936
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: controlled for her entire life in a way that is

937
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 1: like I mean, it's it's almost like so much that

938
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: I'm like, do we have enough time in this movie

939
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 1: to really address all of this? Like that scene with

940
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: her mother was fucking brutal, but yeah, I mean it's

941
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 1: so this is like kind of where in this movie,

942
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 1: I I get to another point where it's like this

943
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 1: was going somewhere, but it felt like there wasn't enough

944
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: time or whatever it was to like follow through on

945
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: the seriousness of what was set up where I guess

946
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 1: like it's it almost felt like, I don't know, like

947
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 1: almost like a little bit girl power feminism for Alice

948
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 1: by the end to be like I'm my own woman

949
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 1: now and I'm at school and everything is great, and

950
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 1: it just I mean, it's very movie I guess because

951
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 1: if they set her up with severe trauma and then

952
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 1: they're like and then she went to college and made

953
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: one friend and you're like, well that okay, like it

954
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: it feels a little undercooked to me. But I don't know,

955
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 1: I I appreciate again, like you're saying, Caitlin, like the

956
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: fact that this was even tackled in the highest genre

957
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 1: is huge. Yeah, I think a lot of the effective commentary.

958
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 1: I mean I actually kind of appreciated that it it

959
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 1: didn't dwell on the whole, like, well where women but

960
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 1: we can still do this. There's only one There's a

961
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 1: very trailer scene where Viola Davis is like, we have

962
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 1: the balls. They don't think we have the balls to

963
00:58:56,320 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 1: do this. You're like, alright, alright, we get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

964
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 1: She says like we have to move and think like

965
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:04,959
Speaker 1: a team of men. The best thing we have going

966
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: for us is being what we are, implied women, because

967
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:11,479
Speaker 1: no one thinks we have the balls to pull this off,

968
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 1: which I think is like an appropriate amount of discussion

969
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 1: about that. If it had gone much more beyond that,

970
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:20,440
Speaker 1: I would have, um, like, that would be a little

971
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 1: eye rolly to me. It's like, yeah, we know, that

972
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:26,920
Speaker 1: would almost feel it was like a movie directed at

973
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 1: men to like remind men, yes, women are capable, Yes

974
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 1: we can do ship like look at her with a

975
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 1: gun and kicking like, But because the movie doesn't dwell

976
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: on that, it just to me made it more accessible

977
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 1: for me at least, right you know, I was like, okay, this,

978
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 1: you're you're speaking my language. Um. And then I wanted

979
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: to share a quote from Viola Davis from that same interview.

980
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 1: I think that you were referencing Jamie from The New

981
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 1: York Times right by Reggie Gogo, who says Viola Davis

982
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 1: says about the movie quote, this movie is a realistic

983
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 1: journey into women gaining ownership of their of their lives,

984
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 1: and not at the expense of who they are. The

985
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 1: feminine energy and the vulnerability are still there, but I

986
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 1: think it's a fantasy and every woman to do something

987
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 1: bold and brash and not nice, to bust out of

988
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 1: themselves and this and social norms to get at some

989
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 1: level of authenticity. I think that's what attracts people. I know,

990
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: that's what attracts me. End quote. I know, ah, and

991
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 1: that is largely what attracts me to this movie as well,

992
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 1: like what compels me about it. Um. Yeah. And then

993
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 1: in addition to that kind of like that gender commentary, UM,

994
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 1: I think there's also effective class commentary and race commentary

995
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: embodied a lot in the particularly like the race conversation

996
01:00:56,360 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 1: in like the Jack Mulligan versus them All Manning, And

997
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 1: that was another thing also. I also I also kind

998
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 1: of thought about kind of when you're looking at the race,

999
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:08,920
Speaker 1: if you look at kind of conversation between Jack and

1000
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:12,000
Speaker 1: his dad, he's he's he comes off as the more moral,

1001
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 1: better human kind of um, the more moral between the two,

1002
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 1: and then you kind of opposed with him and jam

1003
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 1: All and then he's kind of and and then he's

1004
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 1: the kind of the last moral, the more evil, I guess,

1005
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 1: I guess. But but also um, but also neither of

1006
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: them are also like morally right, and so I love

1007
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: that the phone both both comments. I love that it

1008
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 1: comes on a couple of things. One kind of um

1009
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:38,200
Speaker 1: kind of because then then it also gives Jack kind

1010
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 1: of credit, I guess, for being like a kind of

1011
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:44,920
Speaker 1: basic um we're not going for like basic um basic

1012
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 1: beauty as a white man as opposed to kind of

1013
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 1: his more cotween his father, but within they're both kind

1014
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 1: of more wrally wrong totally I guess if that makes sense. Yeah,

1015
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 1: I thought that that, uh, one of the things that

1016
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 1: that storyline got too. Pretty effectively, it's like some I mean,

1017
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 1: it's not like dwelled on in any significant way, but

1018
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 1: like almost generational commentary where I feel like it's pretty

1019
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,919
Speaker 1: clearly telegraphed that the Mulligan's the father and the son.

1020
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 1: No one gives a ship about the people in the

1021
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:20,000
Speaker 1: eighteenth district there. They don't care. They're more obsessed with

1022
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: keeping power than anything else, Like they don't give a fuck,

1023
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 1: But the ways that they don't give a funk are

1024
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: very indicative of their generation. Where Robert Duval's character is

1025
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 1: just openly racist, like completely mask off, horrifying to watch

1026
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 1: and listen to, and then Colin Ferrell's character is almost

1027
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: like this more gen x iteration of that same racism

1028
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 1: and classism and dismissal of his constituents, but he's like

1029
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 1: more polite about it, and he doesn't say the quiet

1030
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 1: part loud, like it's it's very I don't know, like

1031
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 1: there were moments in that story and that we're really

1032
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 1: difficult to watch, but in a way that it's like

1033
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 1: they were being pretty effective in the way that it's like,

1034
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 1: well and the and the bleakest part of it is

1035
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 1: by the end whatever I mean, Jack Mulligan wins on

1036
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 1: the sympathy vote because Robert daval was murdered, and so

1037
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: if you look at it one way, it's like we

1038
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:24,600
Speaker 1: know that Jack Mulligan doesn't actually want this job, he

1039
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 1: doesn't care, he feels so bad for himself and he

1040
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 1: feels cursed by having to do this job. But ultimately

1041
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:36,600
Speaker 1: it's the eighteenth district who loses because they're subjected to

1042
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 1: yet another term of uh nepotism, white guy who doesn't

1043
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 1: give a ship and is just completely phoning it in,

1044
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 1: And it's like that political cycle is I don't I mean,

1045
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 1: it's it's such a real thing and very I don't know,

1046
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 1: like I feel like there are some ways where like

1047
01:03:56,840 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 1: that area of the story was so effectively done, and

1048
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 1: then it was like, but I wish that I don't know.

1049
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 1: I was trying to think of was like I wish

1050
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 1: that like one of the widows worked in politics more meaningfully,

1051
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 1: or there was more connection between those two storylines that

1052
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,760
Speaker 1: like fused them together, because at different times it felt

1053
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:19,640
Speaker 1: like it was separate. That was what I remember kind

1054
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 1: of in that scene between Jack and Ronica, what would

1055
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 1: you kind of go then? And I kind of pretend

1056
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 1: that it's kind of something to do with school digit

1057
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:29,800
Speaker 1: and actually kind of asking for help. I wish I

1058
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 1: said her job had said some how been ebolding, maybe

1059
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:34,440
Speaker 1: working with him in some way, because if you can

1060
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 1: make her the main character half a direct have that

1061
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 1: been the direct link? I feel like that would have

1062
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 1: been more effective. Yeah, I because Veronica teachers, like a

1063
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 1: former member of the teachers union. Yeah, some something along

1064
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 1: those lines, which we only learn about through dialogue, and

1065
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, that would have been interesting to explore more.

1066
01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm just like, maybe there's movie would have worked

1067
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 1: better if it was also just a readapted TV series

1068
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:07,560
Speaker 1: and that way we would like get more of us,

1069
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:12,800
Speaker 1: more time to explore. Yeah. Yeah, but remember I remember

1070
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 1: the first time I was I remember thinking I was like,

1071
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:18,440
Speaker 1: this would be a really good, like two part pilot

1072
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:23,440
Speaker 1: for this would work really well. Yeah, as as a pilot, Yeah,

1073
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 1: because I guess it's like our main criticisms are like

1074
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 1: things that we wish we had more time to explore,

1075
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 1: but they just made the cuts they made. Yeah. Another

1076
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 1: one of another example of that is the kind of

1077
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:40,480
Speaker 1: I wouldn't even call it a storyline because it's so fleeting,

1078
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 1: but the detail you learn about Veronica and Harry's son, Marcus,

1079
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:51,600
Speaker 1: who was shot and killed by cops because they racially

1080
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 1: profiled him, and that is then kind of followed up

1081
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 1: on because there's this kind of ongoing in flashbacks between

1082
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 1: Veronica and Harry where she says, he you know, He's like,

1083
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 1: don't make me feel like my only regret is having

1084
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:11,760
Speaker 1: a child with you, and she responds with, you know,

1085
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:13,760
Speaker 1: maybe you should have had a child with someone else,

1086
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 1: because then he would still be alive, which when we

1087
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 1: get the flashback of his murder, we realized, oh, he

1088
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 1: was killed because of the color of his skin, and

1089
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:27,440
Speaker 1: had he been a white man, that wouldn't have happened.

1090
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:32,120
Speaker 1: And so like Veronica is harboring, seems to be harboring

1091
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 1: this guilt revolving around that and then later when Harry

1092
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 1: shows up at the very end, she calls him out.

1093
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:41,800
Speaker 1: She's like, you're such a coward, like you've been having

1094
01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 1: this affair and now you have this son, your new

1095
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 1: your new son, your new white happy family. And it's

1096
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 1: this like undercurrent in the movie. But I feel like

1097
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:55,240
Speaker 1: that could have been something that was explored further, and

1098
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 1: I would have liked to have just like kind of

1099
01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:01,480
Speaker 1: learned more about that and how that's affecting Aronica. I agree,

1100
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:05,720
Speaker 1: and I sh'll think about I thought it was because

1101
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:08,600
Speaker 1: I feel like that pop Win comes with a lot

1102
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:10,920
Speaker 1: of his history kind of with with feminity and and

1103
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:12,840
Speaker 1: and the kind of the digitalvantages and the way the

1104
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 1: black women, black women aren't offered that kind of feminity,

1105
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 1: and the way that what women are kind of are

1106
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:19,960
Speaker 1: the ideal of femininity, and the way that the world

1107
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 1: that we're often not not teenage women or um or

1108
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 1: not often not offered as a kind of advantage or

1109
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:29,760
Speaker 1: safety um the other one we get because of feminity

1110
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 1: um and and and and then and and then and

1111
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:34,040
Speaker 1: then and then and then having it in your head

1112
01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:36,919
Speaker 1: and and and and and then seeing your husband then

1113
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:40,520
Speaker 1: move on and then saying yours move on with the women,

1114
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:43,280
Speaker 1: which is if you are being bad enough, but but

1115
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:46,560
Speaker 1: but then to see him, you know, choose choose that

1116
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:48,960
Speaker 1: over you and and and to have and really kind

1117
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:51,400
Speaker 1: of makes the deal even worse. I feel like that

1118
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:53,840
Speaker 1: was a really interesting pot point. It could have been

1119
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 1: expanded a lot more than it was, because there's because

1120
01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:02,440
Speaker 1: there's so much history with that. Absolutely, Yeah, I was

1121
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 1: sort of wondering what the script and the story gained

1122
01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 1: by withholding that information for so long, because it seemed like,

1123
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:13,720
Speaker 1: like you're saying, Michael Michel, like there there is so

1124
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:17,800
Speaker 1: much historically and story wise to explore there, But by

1125
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 1: the time you learn what their history is and who

1126
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 1: their son was and what actually happened, there's almost no

1127
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:30,799
Speaker 1: run time left to do anything but kill Liam Neeson,

1128
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:35,799
Speaker 1: which is like I'm I feel great about like great

1129
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:38,680
Speaker 1: kill Liam Neeson all day long. But but yeah, it

1130
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 1: felt like, yeah, that the movie didn't give enough time

1131
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 1: to effectively explore what you were describing. And it feels

1132
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 1: like that character like Veronica is so well set up

1133
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:54,040
Speaker 1: that too, withhold that information for so long, I feel

1134
01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:57,840
Speaker 1: like it almost does a disservice to her character. And

1135
01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:00,400
Speaker 1: then um, kind of back to your point, mean about

1136
01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:04,719
Speaker 1: like kind of the generational differences between Jack Mulligan and

1137
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:09,000
Speaker 1: his father. I think another example of that is that

1138
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:14,519
Speaker 1: programmed that initiative that Jack Mulligan started, the m WOW,

1139
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:21,000
Speaker 1: the Minority Women Owned Work initiative, where it seems, based

1140
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:24,160
Speaker 1: on what you know about him, it's obviously an extremely

1141
01:09:24,479 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 1: performative thing. That also he is he's basically exploiting the

1142
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:36,400
Speaker 1: people of this district because you find out that they

1143
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 1: loaned money to these black women to like start their

1144
01:09:40,400 --> 01:09:43,920
Speaker 1: own businesses. But then these women are now like beholden

1145
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:47,719
Speaker 1: to these loans that they're clearly struggling to pay back.

1146
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 1: Because that's something that we see in the hair salon

1147
01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 1: that Bell works in, because her her boss, the owner

1148
01:09:55,280 --> 01:10:00,439
Speaker 1: of the salon, is having confrontations in and our humans

1149
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:04,280
Speaker 1: with this man who we understand is coming to collect

1150
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:09,479
Speaker 1: on this debt. And so basically it's like this, you know,

1151
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:11,960
Speaker 1: this Jack Mulligan guy being like, look at me, Look

1152
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:15,000
Speaker 1: what I'm doing. I'm empowering these women of color to

1153
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:18,559
Speaker 1: be business owners, and that's generating revenue, and that revenue

1154
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:20,840
Speaker 1: is going back into the neighborhood. But then when you

1155
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:25,639
Speaker 1: actually learn about the real circumstances of that initiative where

1156
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:29,760
Speaker 1: it's all about you know, this performative gesture, this exploitation

1157
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:34,800
Speaker 1: that he's making money off of two. So yeah, I

1158
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 1: thought that was all an effective examination of that just

1159
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:47,080
Speaker 1: type of very corrupt, performative political whatever dealings that might

1160
01:10:47,160 --> 01:10:53,520
Speaker 1: seem like they're helping marginalized communities but is actually exploitative.

1161
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:58,360
Speaker 1: I thought that was effective. Yeah, and I liked that. Again,

1162
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 1: it's just like, yeah, the more we talk about this,

1163
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:04,400
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, there's so much like really timely and

1164
01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:07,840
Speaker 1: like well set up premises here that we just don't

1165
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:10,400
Speaker 1: have enough time to explore where it's like not even

1166
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:13,240
Speaker 1: as much a criticism of the movie of like, I

1167
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:14,560
Speaker 1: think the more we talk about it, the more I

1168
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:16,320
Speaker 1: think you're right, Michael Michelburg. It's like this should be

1169
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 1: just like a limited series where we have the real

1170
01:11:19,439 --> 01:11:22,920
Speaker 1: estate to like like really examine this. I would have

1171
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 1: loved it, Yeah, it would, And I like, I mean

1172
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:29,400
Speaker 1: it's they I feel like the screenwriters are doing their

1173
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:31,719
Speaker 1: best there where it's like you do see like there's

1174
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 1: that one reporter who I appreciate, see like him just

1175
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:38,479
Speaker 1: I don't know, I've seen stuff like this happen in

1176
01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:41,720
Speaker 1: real time where it's like a city councilor is spewing

1177
01:11:42,439 --> 01:11:45,760
Speaker 1: campaign point bullshit. Everyone knows he's full of ship, but

1178
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:50,240
Speaker 1: there's only like one reporter who's like, wait, what uh

1179
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:54,120
Speaker 1: just watching the city councilor ignore them and be like, oh,

1180
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:58,200
Speaker 1: this is so annoying when people acknowledge that I'm a liar,

1181
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:03,720
Speaker 1: like that whole thing, it's like it's so uh yeah, yeah,

1182
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:06,439
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's good. And then but then

1183
01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 1: it's also like we don't get quite enough of it

1184
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:12,799
Speaker 1: because I like that. I mean that was another great

1185
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:18,320
Speaker 1: scene for Cynthia Arrivo's character where she's talking with um,

1186
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:20,639
Speaker 1: I need to remember the name of the character who

1187
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:24,360
Speaker 1: owns the hair salon, and and she's pushing back and

1188
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:28,160
Speaker 1: being like, well that doesn't sound right, Like this isn't

1189
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:32,839
Speaker 1: you know He's he's basically profiting off of pretending to

1190
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:35,559
Speaker 1: help us when he's not helping us, he's helping himself.

1191
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 1: And the owner of the salon kind of replies with like, yeah,

1192
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:41,960
Speaker 1: I know, but what else am I supposed to do?

1193
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:45,519
Speaker 1: Like what other options are available to me? Which is

1194
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:51,759
Speaker 1: a huge conversation that again, it's like it's so wild

1195
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:54,639
Speaker 1: in a positive way that this conversation is being had

1196
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:57,639
Speaker 1: in a heist movie. And I also wish that there

1197
01:12:57,720 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 1: was more time to explore it, and also, you know,

1198
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:05,879
Speaker 1: just get to know Cynthia Arriva's character better in general totally.

1199
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:11,559
Speaker 1: I mean the catharsis of that salon owner struggling and

1200
01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:14,439
Speaker 1: acknowledging like, well, I couldn't have gone a bank, wouldn't

1201
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:16,559
Speaker 1: have given me the loan to start my own business,

1202
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:20,720
Speaker 1: you know, and then to have money paid back to

1203
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:23,800
Speaker 1: her because Belle takes a part of her split from

1204
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:27,080
Speaker 1: the heist and gives it to the salon owner. So

1205
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:31,000
Speaker 1: like just the catharsis of having that debt paid back

1206
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:34,840
Speaker 1: to her, or like getting that money to start a

1207
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:38,600
Speaker 1: business without you know, having these loan sharks basically like

1208
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:41,559
Speaker 1: breathing down her neck, you know, putting her in a

1209
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:46,160
Speaker 1: position of being more financially secure, and that money coming

1210
01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:50,800
Speaker 1: from the very man who exploited her to begin with,

1211
01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:57,759
Speaker 1: is very cathartic. Yeah, Um, does anyone have any other

1212
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:02,920
Speaker 1: thoughts about the phil Um? What were you always thoughts

1213
01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:07,599
Speaker 1: kind of about his kind of relations relationship kind of

1214
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:11,479
Speaker 1: just that's working and all of that. Oh, that's a

1215
01:14:12,080 --> 01:14:15,160
Speaker 1: that's an excellent question. I would be curious. I almost

1216
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 1: want I wasn't able to find I was because so

1217
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:21,240
Speaker 1: this I don't think came up a lot in the summary,

1218
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:23,880
Speaker 1: but um for listener reference if you have not seen

1219
01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:28,559
Speaker 1: the movie yet, Alice is pressured by her mother to

1220
01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:35,200
Speaker 1: become a sugar baby in order to financially sustain herself

1221
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:39,040
Speaker 1: and also presumably her mother to an extent after her

1222
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:44,040
Speaker 1: husband dies in the heist, and so for much of

1223
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:48,400
Speaker 1: the movie we see Alice is in a transactional sugar

1224
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:55,760
Speaker 1: baby relationship with this business guy. So I was I

1225
01:14:55,800 --> 01:14:58,519
Speaker 1: was hoping to be able. I was looking for a

1226
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 1: sex worker perspective on this storyline, and I wasn't able

1227
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:06,720
Speaker 1: to find one. So if I mean, if we do

1228
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:09,479
Speaker 1: have any listeners who have insights into that, we would

1229
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:13,000
Speaker 1: love we were totally open to hearing it, and I wasn't.

1230
01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:15,519
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, my instinct there was that

1231
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:19,640
Speaker 1: it was well intentioned but possibly a little undercooked. I

1232
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:22,000
Speaker 1: felt like there there was kind of an element in

1233
01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:27,240
Speaker 1: at least with that guy, Dave David vague rich guy,

1234
01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 1: where he was pretty emotionally volatile towards Alice, where there

1235
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:36,800
Speaker 1: were moments where he was very affectionate towards her and

1236
01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:38,719
Speaker 1: she seemed to think that there might be a real

1237
01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:42,040
Speaker 1: relationship developing, and then he would turn on her and

1238
01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:45,360
Speaker 1: be like, this is a transaction for me and grows

1239
01:15:45,439 --> 01:15:48,080
Speaker 1: more and more volatile as the story goes on, and

1240
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:50,920
Speaker 1: it feels like, I don't know, I would be curious

1241
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:54,400
Speaker 1: to know how much when Steve McQueen and Gillian flam

1242
01:15:54,400 --> 01:15:58,719
Speaker 1: were collaborating on this, how much they spoke to sex

1243
01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:03,000
Speaker 1: workers versus used the idea of sugar baby to advance

1244
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:05,800
Speaker 1: the character and get her to where they wanted her

1245
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:07,840
Speaker 1: to be. Because I I sort of felt like, and

1246
01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:11,120
Speaker 1: again it's like I don't have experience in this realm,

1247
01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:13,639
Speaker 1: but it almost it did feel to me a little

1248
01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:17,479
Speaker 1: bit like they were commenting more on the idea of

1249
01:16:17,479 --> 01:16:19,639
Speaker 1: a sugar baby as a means to an end, versus

1250
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:23,679
Speaker 1: any actual insight into sex work. It felt it felt

1251
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:27,360
Speaker 1: kind of dragmental to me. Um kind of both both

1252
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:30,439
Speaker 1: both to the filmmakers and kind of and also and

1253
01:16:30,479 --> 01:16:32,479
Speaker 1: also all the kid goes around her, It just kind

1254
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:35,280
Speaker 1: of felt like everyone was kind of um. It just

1255
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 1: kept being a plot point of basically her for either

1256
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:42,320
Speaker 1: not having a real job or not really being intelligent

1257
01:16:42,439 --> 01:16:45,080
Speaker 1: because as a reflector of being a sugar baby. And

1258
01:16:45,160 --> 01:16:49,120
Speaker 1: I was like, this bear is a little off base here. Yeah,

1259
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:57,640
Speaker 1: I have two thoughts about this. Number one is ready um.

1260
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:02,240
Speaker 1: Number one is I was trying to figure out if

1261
01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:06,800
Speaker 1: there was a distinction between the movie whether or not

1262
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:11,439
Speaker 1: it was passing judgment about this versus other characters in

1263
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:15,240
Speaker 1: the narrative passing judgment, because I mean, Veronica certainly is

1264
01:17:15,280 --> 01:17:19,080
Speaker 1: passing judgment as a character, definitely. Yeah, And I think

1265
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:22,000
Speaker 1: maybe even correct me if I'm wrong, But I I

1266
01:17:22,040 --> 01:17:26,439
Speaker 1: feel like Michelle Rodriguez's character might also make some comment.

1267
01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just like about something she's wearing. I think

1268
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:32,080
Speaker 1: that there's comments. It's not just I mean, but with like, yeah,

1269
01:17:32,080 --> 01:17:34,960
Speaker 1: with Veronica, I mean it's like a physical altercation. But yeah,

1270
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:36,800
Speaker 1: I think that everyone is a little bit judge e

1271
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:44,280
Speaker 1: about Alice's job. Right, So that's happening without question as

1272
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:48,799
Speaker 1: far as the movie and the crafters of this story

1273
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:52,880
Speaker 1: passing judgment, I feel like that was happening to a

1274
01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:57,719
Speaker 1: definitely lesser extent than some of the other characters passing judgment.

1275
01:17:57,720 --> 01:17:59,320
Speaker 1: But I feel like it would have been more effective

1276
01:17:59,360 --> 01:18:02,720
Speaker 1: if the movie is actually coming at it completely objectively.

1277
01:18:03,439 --> 01:18:05,280
Speaker 1: I think it would have been helpful to have a

1278
01:18:05,320 --> 01:18:12,160
Speaker 1: different character, maybe Michelle Rodriguez's character, to say, like, do

1279
01:18:12,360 --> 01:18:18,519
Speaker 1: whatever you want, it's your life, your choice. Yeah, good point. Yeah, Yeah,

1280
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:21,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. And it also sort of sets up

1281
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:25,719
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Debicky as an actor to be the most heavily

1282
01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:31,280
Speaker 1: sexualized character in the movie, where I mean, she is

1283
01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:35,840
Speaker 1: the only white woman of the widows, right, and and

1284
01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:41,120
Speaker 1: she's also the only woman that has a like long

1285
01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:44,320
Speaker 1: lingering sex scene and these scenes of her and all

1286
01:18:44,439 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 1: these gowns, and it just I don't know. I it

1287
01:18:49,120 --> 01:18:51,559
Speaker 1: wasn't my biggest issue with the movie, but it also

1288
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:56,120
Speaker 1: just there were some lingering like why was this? And

1289
01:18:56,200 --> 01:19:00,640
Speaker 1: I am curious of like how much of that storyline

1290
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:02,800
Speaker 1: was carried on from the mini series or if this

1291
01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:05,960
Speaker 1: was completely an invention of these two writers. I don't

1292
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:10,000
Speaker 1: really know. Yeah, and we'll never know because we simply

1293
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:12,960
Speaker 1: won't and maybe even can't. Where do you find British

1294
01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:17,120
Speaker 1: from the eighties? I tried, I really did try, and

1295
01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:21,240
Speaker 1: I couldn't find it. Yeah, but yeah, I'm a little

1296
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:27,000
Speaker 1: wary of that. But my second thought about this is

1297
01:19:27,080 --> 01:19:30,720
Speaker 1: that it is a reminder to me that all of

1298
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:36,000
Speaker 1: the men in the story are framed as being obstacles

1299
01:19:36,040 --> 01:19:42,080
Speaker 1: and or antagonistic forces for the widows, which I think

1300
01:19:42,160 --> 01:19:47,479
Speaker 1: is an interesting flip considering that in your average heist movie,

1301
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:55,240
Speaker 1: which is again a bunch of men doing heists for reasons, um,

1302
01:19:55,360 --> 01:20:00,040
Speaker 1: women are often framed as obstacles. Like just again, to

1303
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:04,840
Speaker 1: refer back to Oceans eleven, Julia Roberts, Brad Pitts all

1304
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:09,000
Speaker 1: like she's a distraction, Danny Ocean stopped being distracted, blah

1305
01:20:09,040 --> 01:20:11,360
Speaker 1: blah blah. I still can't get over the fact that

1306
01:20:11,439 --> 01:20:14,439
Speaker 1: his name is Danny Ocean. Act movie so many times,

1307
01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:18,400
Speaker 1: and I'm like, what the fuck his name is Danny Ocean.

1308
01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:25,400
Speaker 1: I can't think of it's ludicrous, But um, yeah, so

1309
01:20:25,439 --> 01:20:27,720
Speaker 1: I think it was. I mean, I don't hate the

1310
01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:30,680
Speaker 1: choice that I mean. And again I'm not saying like

1311
01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 1: all men hashtag, not all men are bad and obstacles,

1312
01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:41,400
Speaker 1: but um, between, like this David guy who Alice gets

1313
01:20:41,439 --> 01:20:44,640
Speaker 1: involved with, he, like you said, Jamie gets increasingly like

1314
01:20:44,720 --> 01:20:49,680
Speaker 1: more and more volatile. Her deceased husband was physically abusive.

1315
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:55,320
Speaker 1: Linda's husband was gambling away all of her money that

1316
01:20:55,400 --> 01:21:01,360
Speaker 1: she earned from running this gown store boutique, yah, causing

1317
01:21:01,400 --> 01:21:05,160
Speaker 1: her to lose her business. Obviously, we talked about how

1318
01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:09,240
Speaker 1: Veronica's husband, Harry was, you know, cheating on her. He's lying,

1319
01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:13,280
Speaker 1: he's faking his death, he tries to kill her, etcetera.

1320
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:16,360
Speaker 1: Name a thing he didn't do wrong. He really did

1321
01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:20,760
Speaker 1: every single thing. He fucked up real bad um. The

1322
01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:25,400
Speaker 1: men in the Manning family, the men and the Mulligan family,

1323
01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:31,160
Speaker 1: they are all posed as being antagonistic forces to the women.

1324
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:34,759
Speaker 1: I would say the only exception is Bash the driver,

1325
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:39,439
Speaker 1: like he's he seems okay, good friend as far as

1326
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:44,920
Speaker 1: I can tell, and then he isn't okay because you know,

1327
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:48,840
Speaker 1: he's just yeah that that's a really good point that

1328
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:52,639
Speaker 1: I don't know, I have such complicated feelings about it's

1329
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:55,960
Speaker 1: not even specific to this movie, but movies that it's

1330
01:21:56,000 --> 01:21:58,759
Speaker 1: so bizarre because it's just like whatever, the past five

1331
01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:02,920
Speaker 1: to seven years feel like it's been forever. It feels

1332
01:22:02,960 --> 01:22:05,400
Speaker 1: like such a long time. And so this movie is

1333
01:22:05,479 --> 01:22:07,839
Speaker 1: less than three years old, but there are already elements

1334
01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:10,200
Speaker 1: of it that not even in a way that I'm

1335
01:22:10,240 --> 01:22:13,479
Speaker 1: being super critical of but that feel a little bit dated,

1336
01:22:13,640 --> 01:22:19,280
Speaker 1: of like the feeling and the sort of like movie

1337
01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:22,759
Speaker 1: energy that was coming to screens in the year after

1338
01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:26,800
Speaker 1: the Me Too movements started going, versus being three years

1339
01:22:26,840 --> 01:22:29,759
Speaker 1: out and knowing kind of a little more about how

1340
01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:33,440
Speaker 1: that actually bore out, and like the successes and failures

1341
01:22:33,439 --> 01:22:37,040
Speaker 1: that that movement has had. It like, watching this movie

1342
01:22:37,040 --> 01:22:40,160
Speaker 1: now is like and watching the trailer, especially Michael Mitchell.

1343
01:22:40,240 --> 01:22:43,120
Speaker 1: You mentioned the trailer, and I remember being so fucking

1344
01:22:43,240 --> 01:22:47,679
Speaker 1: hyped on the trailer. I love. It's like the most

1345
01:22:47,760 --> 01:22:50,160
Speaker 1: me too trailer ever where it's like, we're going to

1346
01:22:50,320 --> 01:22:53,480
Speaker 1: do it now, and like it's very cathartic and exciting

1347
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:57,320
Speaker 1: and and then but but then there's also like I

1348
01:22:57,400 --> 01:23:00,680
Speaker 1: can't quite describe what the feeling is, but there's it

1349
01:23:00,760 --> 01:23:04,840
Speaker 1: makes me like a little bit sad and discouraged to

1350
01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:07,559
Speaker 1: watch that trailers out because it felt like there was

1351
01:23:07,600 --> 01:23:12,760
Speaker 1: all this positive energy, and like with so many movements,

1352
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:16,400
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, yeah, we didn't solve that in a year.

1353
01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:21,320
Speaker 1: What were we thinking? Like it was? I don't it's

1354
01:23:21,320 --> 01:23:23,320
Speaker 1: hard to just I don't. I don't really know exactly

1355
01:23:23,320 --> 01:23:25,760
Speaker 1: what I'm getting at here, but I guess just the

1356
01:23:25,840 --> 01:23:30,640
Speaker 1: idea of like, there have been so many reversals of

1357
01:23:31,120 --> 01:23:35,400
Speaker 1: mail driven plots, which this movie is in many ways,

1358
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:37,040
Speaker 1: And I think that the ways that it does it

1359
01:23:37,200 --> 01:23:40,920
Speaker 1: and the subject matter it chooses to tackle is really smart.

1360
01:23:41,280 --> 01:23:46,240
Speaker 1: It's well written, it's certainly well acted, like it's really cool.

1361
01:23:46,360 --> 01:23:49,280
Speaker 1: And then there's also I don't know, I mean, there's

1362
01:23:49,280 --> 01:23:52,080
Speaker 1: certainly room for both of these sorts of movies, But

1363
01:23:52,120 --> 01:23:55,519
Speaker 1: then there's sometimes where it's like, is the only option

1364
01:23:55,800 --> 01:23:59,760
Speaker 1: to just flip it? Because I don't know in this

1365
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:02,600
Speaker 1: ice piece that Again, I want to shout out the

1366
01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:06,800
Speaker 1: writer Amior Mercer. She was pointing out, like, with kind

1367
01:24:06,800 --> 01:24:10,799
Speaker 1: of the exception of set it off, most women driven

1368
01:24:10,960 --> 01:24:16,280
Speaker 1: heist movies are reversals of mail plots, and she pointed out,

1369
01:24:16,680 --> 01:24:19,320
Speaker 1: and I've only seen Oceans eight once and I didn't

1370
01:24:19,360 --> 01:24:23,280
Speaker 1: really like it very much, but how the women in

1371
01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:28,400
Speaker 1: Oceans eight are very defined in relation to characters who

1372
01:24:28,479 --> 01:24:34,360
Speaker 1: existed in Danny Ocean's life and like age my little

1373
01:24:34,400 --> 01:24:39,120
Speaker 1: sister and this is bu and it's all they exist

1374
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:43,360
Speaker 1: in relation to men. And that is true of the way.

1375
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:47,520
Speaker 1: I mean, that's like widows, like the title implies proximity

1376
01:24:47,640 --> 01:24:50,360
Speaker 1: to men, which is a very true you know that

1377
01:24:50,479 --> 01:24:54,160
Speaker 1: it's like a reality that exists. And then I also

1378
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:58,120
Speaker 1: I'm just I don't know, I want us to get

1379
01:24:58,120 --> 01:25:00,040
Speaker 1: to a point where it doesn't need to be a

1380
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:02,920
Speaker 1: flip of a movie we've seen before, like like it

1381
01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:05,679
Speaker 1: should just be a story on its own. It also

1382
01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:07,799
Speaker 1: kind of makes you think about that. There was this

1383
01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:10,360
Speaker 1: video I've watched the other day. I don't know, I

1384
01:25:10,360 --> 01:25:11,800
Speaker 1: think it might have been the take, but they're talking

1385
01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:14,840
Speaker 1: about how how often things in the female gage or

1386
01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:17,680
Speaker 1: just kind of flipping I just kind of flipping the

1387
01:25:17,720 --> 01:25:21,280
Speaker 1: mail gage but updractifying men. And so how do we

1388
01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:25,320
Speaker 1: get past just the flipping had what is film beyond that?

1389
01:25:25,640 --> 01:25:28,559
Speaker 1: And how do we get to a space of just

1390
01:25:29,640 --> 01:25:33,320
Speaker 1: a completely new space of just creating content that isn't

1391
01:25:33,439 --> 01:25:35,800
Speaker 1: that's beyond the flap of flipping? And how do we

1392
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:41,040
Speaker 1: create it? And and what is that content? Yeah? Yeah,

1393
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:44,639
Speaker 1: that's so well put. Yeah, where it's just like, at

1394
01:25:44,680 --> 01:25:47,880
Speaker 1: what point with like flipping that gaze is like it was,

1395
01:25:48,080 --> 01:25:49,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, I like almost go back to my

1396
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:52,160
Speaker 1: twenty eight teen SEWT were like all I wanted to

1397
01:25:52,200 --> 01:25:57,600
Speaker 1: see was like in movies women doing two oppressors? What

1398
01:25:57,640 --> 01:26:00,759
Speaker 1: oppressors had done to them, and like that was really

1399
01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:04,879
Speaker 1: cathartic and exciting and like I felt like a release

1400
01:26:05,360 --> 01:26:09,479
Speaker 1: that was like needed. But at some point it's like,

1401
01:26:09,840 --> 01:26:13,800
Speaker 1: but that can't be the end game. You can't just

1402
01:26:13,960 --> 01:26:20,680
Speaker 1: flip patriarchy. That's ridiculous. Like there's like I don't know,

1403
01:26:20,840 --> 01:26:23,840
Speaker 1: I just like I don't know. I've well, I've been

1404
01:26:23,880 --> 01:26:28,040
Speaker 1: doing my feelings this summer. Well that we talked about

1405
01:26:28,040 --> 01:26:33,120
Speaker 1: this a lot, where I mean, progress is a process, right,

1406
01:26:34,280 --> 01:26:38,080
Speaker 1: and that where's the merch where's the T shirt? But

1407
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:41,759
Speaker 1: it means that there are stepping stones, and we've covered

1408
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:43,720
Speaker 1: a lot of movies on the show that we have

1409
01:26:43,880 --> 01:26:47,360
Speaker 1: commented that this feels like a stepping stone movie. This

1410
01:26:47,439 --> 01:26:50,000
Speaker 1: is like a step in the right direction. It's not perfect,

1411
01:26:50,080 --> 01:26:55,160
Speaker 1: it's not nearly as like amazingly intersectionally feminist as we

1412
01:26:55,439 --> 01:27:01,400
Speaker 1: are hoping it is, but it was very progressive for

1413
01:27:01,680 --> 01:27:04,320
Speaker 1: the time that movie came out, or you know, whatever

1414
01:27:04,360 --> 01:27:08,320
Speaker 1: the case. So, yeah, I think it's I don't think

1415
01:27:08,439 --> 01:27:12,080
Speaker 1: it's the end game. Is just like a gender flip,

1416
01:27:12,720 --> 01:27:17,080
Speaker 1: but it is like one of the steps in the

1417
01:27:17,240 --> 01:27:20,960
Speaker 1: process or like just like process. Yeah, where it's like

1418
01:27:21,280 --> 01:27:27,640
Speaker 1: Widows does feel very much like how eighteen felt in

1419
01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:30,479
Speaker 1: a lot of ways words, which is wild to say

1420
01:27:30,479 --> 01:27:33,760
Speaker 1: because it's so recent, but it's like it is capturing

1421
01:27:33,840 --> 01:27:38,959
Speaker 1: so many ideas and catharsis and and just like beginning

1422
01:27:38,960 --> 01:27:42,720
Speaker 1: to discuss serious societal issues in a genre where you

1423
01:27:42,760 --> 01:27:47,240
Speaker 1: wouldn't normally even think about seeing that. Yeah, I don't know.

1424
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:51,559
Speaker 1: I think I think that year specifically. I think I

1425
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:55,599
Speaker 1: think we're like halfway through tough presidency and everyone kind

1426
01:27:55,600 --> 01:27:58,400
Speaker 1: of wanted and it was it was like it was

1427
01:27:58,439 --> 01:28:01,759
Speaker 1: like it was the year of of of representation mattering,

1428
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:04,880
Speaker 1: and everyone was so want to grab Ronnie to grab

1429
01:28:04,960 --> 01:28:08,200
Speaker 1: and feel kind of aspirational and it definitely feels staved

1430
01:28:08,240 --> 01:28:13,679
Speaker 1: in that. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's so like even just yeah,

1431
01:28:13,720 --> 01:28:18,360
Speaker 1: like context historically was like, oh this this movie makes

1432
01:28:18,479 --> 01:28:22,240
Speaker 1: exact sense for the moment that it came out in

1433
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:25,760
Speaker 1: and it's it is it's like so well done. I mean,

1434
01:28:26,120 --> 01:28:29,280
Speaker 1: and Steve McQueen and Gillian Flynn, like that's such a

1435
01:28:29,320 --> 01:28:34,760
Speaker 1: cool collaboration to have even happened, Like it's awesome. I

1436
01:28:34,800 --> 01:28:37,160
Speaker 1: think that Gillian Flynn, if I'm not mistaken, I believe

1437
01:28:37,240 --> 01:28:41,000
Speaker 1: that she is from Chicago, which is I think why

1438
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:46,479
Speaker 1: the setting was shifted there. Um, I'm pretty yes, Okay,

1439
01:28:46,479 --> 01:28:48,840
Speaker 1: so yeah, she is. She has lived in Chicago for

1440
01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:51,559
Speaker 1: many years, so I think that that was why between

1441
01:28:51,560 --> 01:28:54,080
Speaker 1: her and Steve McQueen that it was like a British

1442
01:28:54,160 --> 01:28:56,439
Speaker 1: mini series that Steve McQueen loved, and then they said

1443
01:28:56,479 --> 01:29:00,519
Speaker 1: it where Gillian Flynn lived, and like it just it's cool.

1444
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:04,880
Speaker 1: It's a really cool collaboration, really totally. But what other

1445
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:07,680
Speaker 1: questions was also kind of because I don't think we

1446
01:29:07,720 --> 01:29:10,719
Speaker 1: talked about it. What was um was I guess Day's

1447
01:29:11,960 --> 01:29:14,880
Speaker 1: his too, his too kind of the the other kill

1448
01:29:15,320 --> 01:29:17,920
Speaker 1: the other killing scenes, the one with Bash kind of

1449
01:29:17,960 --> 01:29:20,519
Speaker 1: as wanting football, and then also and and and then

1450
01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:23,720
Speaker 1: also the freestyle raps he and I was wondering, kind of,

1451
01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:29,640
Speaker 1: what y'all what about those? I mean, just from a

1452
01:29:29,640 --> 01:29:33,559
Speaker 1: cinematic point of view, I'm always so shocked that it

1453
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:39,000
Speaker 1: happens because we don't know who those characters are when

1454
01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:42,040
Speaker 1: they're first introduced, because we hadn't seen them before. We

1455
01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:46,120
Speaker 1: don't really understand the context that they like exist in

1456
01:29:46,160 --> 01:29:49,920
Speaker 1: the story or what their role is. And it's not

1457
01:29:50,040 --> 01:29:56,160
Speaker 1: until part way into the conversation that jam is having

1458
01:29:56,840 --> 01:30:00,479
Speaker 1: I think with other characters. Is it that they are

1459
01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:04,240
Speaker 1: the ones who kind of let the robbers get away

1460
01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:06,160
Speaker 1: with the money, or they were supposed to be like

1461
01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:09,320
Speaker 1: keeping an eye on the money and then they sucked

1462
01:30:09,439 --> 01:30:11,559
Speaker 1: up and that's why they were able to steal it.

1463
01:30:11,680 --> 01:30:13,720
Speaker 1: I think it was something along those lines, if I'm

1464
01:30:13,760 --> 01:30:17,639
Speaker 1: not mistaken. Um, yeah, that was my understanding of it.

1465
01:30:17,880 --> 01:30:21,280
Speaker 1: So they had like messed up and then they get

1466
01:30:21,280 --> 01:30:26,240
Speaker 1: punished for it by being shot and really brutal, especially

1467
01:30:26,240 --> 01:30:30,479
Speaker 1: the first shooting, right, Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I

1468
01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:34,680
Speaker 1: was curious when everyone thought about that. I feel like

1469
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:38,040
Speaker 1: those kinds of scenes are like you're saying that, they're

1470
01:30:38,040 --> 01:30:40,160
Speaker 1: always shocking to me because it's just like it's not

1471
01:30:41,080 --> 01:30:45,080
Speaker 1: a genre that I've ever been extremely invested in, and

1472
01:30:45,120 --> 01:30:49,280
Speaker 1: it does like these godfathery scenes where it's just like

1473
01:30:50,240 --> 01:30:55,720
Speaker 1: very dramatic executions has never really been for me, but

1474
01:30:55,880 --> 01:30:58,240
Speaker 1: I do. I yeah, I feel like the fact that

1475
01:30:58,479 --> 01:31:03,719
Speaker 1: these executions are done by a character who the movie

1476
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:07,880
Speaker 1: isn't really letting us get to know makes watching it

1477
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:11,559
Speaker 1: feel worse or like more exploitative, where it does sort

1478
01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:16,160
Speaker 1: of just feel like a torture porn situation because I

1479
01:31:16,160 --> 01:31:19,439
Speaker 1: feel like Daniel Clia, like you were saying earlier, Michael Michelle,

1480
01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:23,240
Speaker 1: like Daniel Clia's performance is doing the heavy lifting there

1481
01:31:23,400 --> 01:31:27,559
Speaker 1: where like you can tell like he's trying my And

1482
01:31:27,560 --> 01:31:29,800
Speaker 1: then I watched an interview with him to sort of

1483
01:31:30,520 --> 01:31:32,400
Speaker 1: make sure that this was what he would he like

1484
01:31:32,920 --> 01:31:35,400
Speaker 1: he was trying to performance always come from a place

1485
01:31:35,439 --> 01:31:39,800
Speaker 1: of like this is how he shows love and loyalty

1486
01:31:39,920 --> 01:31:45,960
Speaker 1: to his brother is by doing this, which is like, wow,

1487
01:31:46,040 --> 01:31:50,400
Speaker 1: Daniel Clia is so smart like that totally like hearing

1488
01:31:50,439 --> 01:31:53,800
Speaker 1: that was like that totally comes through, But that isn't

1489
01:31:53,840 --> 01:31:57,080
Speaker 1: really in the writing like he does that, he brings that,

1490
01:31:57,200 --> 01:31:59,840
Speaker 1: but and it does feel it feels kind of grow

1491
01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:04,400
Speaker 1: especially concerning the conversation we had earlier, where the way

1492
01:32:04,439 --> 01:32:07,400
Speaker 1: that these scenes are shot is very telling of it.

1493
01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:11,639
Speaker 1: Really it seems to really the camera work kind of

1494
01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:16,160
Speaker 1: dwells more on the brutal murder of a disabled man.

1495
01:32:17,040 --> 01:32:21,000
Speaker 1: We see the two black men in this first scene

1496
01:32:21,040 --> 01:32:24,880
Speaker 1: to be executed very much on screen, like there's nothing

1497
01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:29,439
Speaker 1: held back in that. And then with white characters that

1498
01:32:29,520 --> 01:32:33,000
Speaker 1: we know, all of a sudden, the cameras a little shyer,

1499
01:32:34,080 --> 01:32:36,719
Speaker 1: and and and the fact that we don't really get

1500
01:32:37,040 --> 01:32:41,720
Speaker 1: the information we need with gamalogy attempt seems to make

1501
01:32:41,760 --> 01:32:44,719
Speaker 1: it harder. I don't know, what did you think, Michael Mitchelle,

1502
01:32:45,160 --> 01:32:48,120
Speaker 1: even I was telling me, I was even thinking a

1503
01:32:48,160 --> 01:32:51,320
Speaker 1: lot about what I think. I also love. I do think.

1504
01:32:51,800 --> 01:32:54,120
Speaker 1: I think the sound of sound is also really interesting,

1505
01:32:54,160 --> 01:32:58,200
Speaker 1: and a lot of even certain scenes, um, the certain

1506
01:32:58,200 --> 01:33:02,040
Speaker 1: depths seem moore see loud, rent and kind of more

1507
01:33:02,080 --> 01:33:04,880
Speaker 1: goals when it comes to the other stable characters, for

1508
01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:06,960
Speaker 1: the black characters, and and then and and and then

1509
01:33:07,000 --> 01:33:09,439
Speaker 1: and then and then music kind of swelling kind of

1510
01:33:09,520 --> 01:33:11,880
Speaker 1: you know, in a softer way when it came to

1511
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:14,760
Speaker 1: like cares of something. I also noticed, um so and

1512
01:33:14,800 --> 01:33:16,800
Speaker 1: so I would also and so I feel like both

1513
01:33:17,200 --> 01:33:20,000
Speaker 1: the camera work and then the town designed together kind

1514
01:33:20,000 --> 01:33:24,360
Speaker 1: of um there, they're as already there West. But that

1515
01:33:24,439 --> 01:33:27,080
Speaker 1: was probably I do think that was a high point

1516
01:33:27,080 --> 01:33:30,360
Speaker 1: for me. Didn't know I think that that this undersigned

1517
01:33:30,520 --> 01:33:32,880
Speaker 1: what was really was the highpoint by But I do

1518
01:33:33,000 --> 01:33:34,720
Speaker 1: think there were certain spots where I was like, this

1519
01:33:34,720 --> 01:33:37,719
Speaker 1: could have been handled a little better. Yeah, yeah, because

1520
01:33:37,720 --> 01:33:41,080
Speaker 1: it's like, I mean, best case scenario, those scenes could

1521
01:33:41,160 --> 01:33:45,759
Speaker 1: have I mean just been like holy sh it mob scenes,

1522
01:33:46,280 --> 01:33:48,200
Speaker 1: which I think is like what they were trying to be,

1523
01:33:48,320 --> 01:33:51,360
Speaker 1: but they were like, yeah, the details in the cinematography

1524
01:33:51,479 --> 01:33:55,600
Speaker 1: and like the character development or like lack thereof, I

1525
01:33:55,640 --> 01:33:59,080
Speaker 1: guess made it a little tougher. I don't know. I

1526
01:33:59,120 --> 01:34:03,639
Speaker 1: also don't unders and mob movies, so I could be

1527
01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:08,080
Speaker 1: so very wrong either way. It's uh, that scene is

1528
01:34:08,120 --> 01:34:13,280
Speaker 1: always extremely jarring for me. But um, yeah, because that's

1529
01:34:13,320 --> 01:34:15,519
Speaker 1: like the first because you get the you get the

1530
01:34:15,560 --> 01:34:19,200
Speaker 1: big explosion pretty early on with the van explodes, but

1531
01:34:19,280 --> 01:34:24,200
Speaker 1: that's the first moment of like really brutal, like happening

1532
01:34:24,479 --> 01:34:28,960
Speaker 1: right in your face violence, graphic violence kind of things.

1533
01:34:29,040 --> 01:34:34,360
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's always like, oh god, Daniel Khaluja,

1534
01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:39,920
Speaker 1: oh my stars, and so my stars, why are you

1535
01:34:40,000 --> 01:34:46,080
Speaker 1: so mean? But does anyone have any other thoughts about

1536
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:49,599
Speaker 1: the movie? I also, Sally, I really want to knowledge

1537
01:34:49,960 --> 01:34:52,479
Speaker 1: the true star of this film, this Olivia. I just

1538
01:34:52,479 --> 01:34:55,800
Speaker 1: feel like a true star. She you know, you know,

1539
01:34:55,920 --> 01:35:00,880
Speaker 1: she helped find you know, help find Harry. Really Veronica's

1540
01:35:00,960 --> 01:35:07,840
Speaker 1: motivation just a star, love her, adorable an icon. Absolutely.

1541
01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:15,479
Speaker 1: Um does the movie pass the Bechdel test? Yes, yes, yes, yes,

1542
01:35:16,240 --> 01:35:20,800
Speaker 1: here's my favorite pass. Well, well it's not. We'll we'll

1543
01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:23,719
Speaker 1: discuss how it's not quite a pass. But Alice said,

1544
01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:30,320
Speaker 1: why are you being such a bitch. You're being a sword. Veronica,

1545
01:35:30,560 --> 01:35:33,320
Speaker 1: don't say that word to me, Alice, it's appropriate, you're

1546
01:35:33,360 --> 01:35:37,439
Speaker 1: being a sword. And then Veronica is like, you're just

1547
01:35:37,479 --> 01:35:39,680
Speaker 1: a stupid girl with nothing in your head. And then

1548
01:35:39,720 --> 01:35:43,760
Speaker 1: they slap each other and they sure do. Yeah, we

1549
01:35:43,840 --> 01:35:47,920
Speaker 1: love Melo drama. But I would argue that that conversation

1550
01:35:48,000 --> 01:35:54,360
Speaker 1: does not pass because this is Veronica slut shaming Alice

1551
01:35:54,479 --> 01:35:57,360
Speaker 1: for having sex with a guy only one month after

1552
01:35:57,400 --> 01:35:59,799
Speaker 1: her husband died, so the context is still all about

1553
01:36:00,400 --> 01:36:04,479
Speaker 1: her husband. This new guy. Yes, but it is an

1554
01:36:04,479 --> 01:36:11,400
Speaker 1: interaction between women. There's no denying that. But no, it does.

1555
01:36:11,479 --> 01:36:15,120
Speaker 1: It does pass a lot. The widows are planning the

1556
01:36:15,160 --> 01:36:19,559
Speaker 1: heist together, talking a lot of like logistics stuff, things

1557
01:36:19,560 --> 01:36:22,840
Speaker 1: that don't have anything to do with men. Shall we

1558
01:36:22,880 --> 01:36:27,360
Speaker 1: get to our ratings on the nipple scale? Let's do it.

1559
01:36:27,479 --> 01:36:30,639
Speaker 1: Our nipple scale is zero to five nipples, based on

1560
01:36:31,280 --> 01:36:36,800
Speaker 1: how the movie fares from an intersectional feminist lens. I

1561
01:36:36,840 --> 01:36:41,240
Speaker 1: would give this I think four nipples. It's gonna get

1562
01:36:41,600 --> 01:36:45,640
Speaker 1: some points docked simply because of a lot of what

1563
01:36:45,640 --> 01:36:48,639
Speaker 1: we talked about in terms of things that the movie

1564
01:36:48,720 --> 01:36:53,240
Speaker 1: starts to examine or starts to explore that it doesn't

1565
01:36:53,439 --> 01:36:56,040
Speaker 1: there's not quite enough time to fully explore it, and

1566
01:36:56,040 --> 01:37:00,000
Speaker 1: then I feel like we're kind of like robbed of opportunity,

1567
01:37:00,080 --> 01:37:05,400
Speaker 1: used for more interesting commentary or yeah, just a closer

1568
01:37:05,439 --> 01:37:10,640
Speaker 1: examination of what I think this movie is trying to do. Again,

1569
01:37:10,800 --> 01:37:16,160
Speaker 1: it probably should have just been readapted, revitalized as another series.

1570
01:37:16,960 --> 01:37:18,880
Speaker 1: It's not that it doesn't work as a movie, but

1571
01:37:18,920 --> 01:37:21,320
Speaker 1: I think it doesn't work quite as well, just because

1572
01:37:21,439 --> 01:37:25,439
Speaker 1: there's it feels like there's so much crammed into this

1573
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:30,360
Speaker 1: already pretty long movie. It's over two hours long. But um, yeah,

1574
01:37:30,400 --> 01:37:34,240
Speaker 1: there's just there's different bits of like characterization and commentary

1575
01:37:34,360 --> 01:37:39,160
Speaker 1: that I feel could have been handled more effectively had

1576
01:37:39,200 --> 01:37:45,640
Speaker 1: we been given more time with it, especially the relationships

1577
01:37:45,680 --> 01:37:50,960
Speaker 1: between the widows and how those grow and develop over

1578
01:37:50,960 --> 01:37:53,960
Speaker 1: the course of the story, especially with a character like

1579
01:37:54,040 --> 01:37:57,400
Speaker 1: Bell who gets introduced so late into the game and

1580
01:37:57,439 --> 01:38:01,880
Speaker 1: we don't really learn anything about her. So yeah, that's uh,

1581
01:38:02,000 --> 01:38:08,920
Speaker 1: that's my main grape with the movie. So four nipples,

1582
01:38:09,160 --> 01:38:15,840
Speaker 1: and I'll give one to each of the widows. Wow,

1583
01:38:16,800 --> 01:38:18,679
Speaker 1: I'll meet you there. I'll meet you there like three

1584
01:38:18,680 --> 01:38:22,280
Speaker 1: point seven five or four. This movie is really fun

1585
01:38:22,360 --> 01:38:24,920
Speaker 1: to watch, and it also is it's a it's a

1586
01:38:24,920 --> 01:38:27,880
Speaker 1: heavy romp, it's a tone poem, and yet it's a

1587
01:38:28,080 --> 01:38:31,840
Speaker 1: it's interesting. I would call it hetty and heavy. Yes,

1588
01:38:32,640 --> 01:38:39,280
Speaker 1: every h e a blank y uh, substitute any consonant.

1589
01:38:39,400 --> 01:38:46,280
Speaker 1: It's that. But yeah, I I really like this update

1590
01:38:46,479 --> 01:38:51,879
Speaker 1: on the format. I love a Steve McQueen Gillian Flynn

1591
01:38:51,880 --> 01:38:56,519
Speaker 1: collaboration that was really cool. I that the performances in

1592
01:38:56,520 --> 01:38:59,640
Speaker 1: this movie are like incorrect, like the cast, Like just

1593
01:39:00,000 --> 01:39:02,000
Speaker 1: watched a couple of round tables with the cast and

1594
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:06,240
Speaker 1: you're like, hold on, this cast is ridiculous. Like it's

1595
01:39:06,320 --> 01:39:09,320
Speaker 1: so I like, I feel like we didn't get to

1596
01:39:09,320 --> 01:39:11,800
Speaker 1: talk about Brian Tyree Henry very much, and I just

1597
01:39:11,840 --> 01:39:16,400
Speaker 1: like he's incredible. He's so good. I know he's not

1598
01:39:16,400 --> 01:39:18,559
Speaker 1: one of the widows and all the widows are incredible,

1599
01:39:18,600 --> 01:39:21,559
Speaker 1: but I was like, Brian Tyree Henry doesn't need an

1600
01:39:21,560 --> 01:39:24,400
Speaker 1: oscar like yesterday anyway, he had an incredible year right

1601
01:39:24,439 --> 01:39:28,320
Speaker 1: yere He's yeah, yeah, he's like he had like a

1602
01:39:28,320 --> 01:39:31,759
Speaker 1: wild eighteen. He was in like everything that year because

1603
01:39:31,800 --> 01:39:35,320
Speaker 1: he was also he's he's in Um was into this

1604
01:39:35,400 --> 01:39:38,559
Speaker 1: Better Verse that year because he voices Miles, his dad

1605
01:39:38,640 --> 01:39:42,360
Speaker 1: in that movie. Yes, yes, he was Real Street that

1606
01:39:42,400 --> 01:39:46,040
Speaker 1: year as well. Yeah, he's Oh my god, I really

1607
01:39:46,080 --> 01:39:49,160
Speaker 1: like him. What else was he in that year? He

1608
01:39:49,280 --> 01:39:51,519
Speaker 1: was in? Oh, I have no idea what that movie

1609
01:39:51,520 --> 01:39:53,840
Speaker 1: he is. He was in a movie called Hotel Artemis.

1610
01:39:54,160 --> 01:39:57,439
Speaker 1: Oh I remember that coming out? Yeah, well he was

1611
01:39:57,479 --> 01:40:02,240
Speaker 1: in it. Whatever. Anyway, it's good for so. Yes, I like,

1612
01:40:02,800 --> 01:40:06,439
Speaker 1: I totally agree with what you were just saying, Caitlin,

1613
01:40:06,479 --> 01:40:08,320
Speaker 1: and what you were saying earlier, Michael Michelle. Where this

1614
01:40:08,360 --> 01:40:11,120
Speaker 1: movie you could argue, maybe like bites off a little

1615
01:40:11,160 --> 01:40:13,600
Speaker 1: more than it can chew with the sheer number of

1616
01:40:13,680 --> 01:40:17,839
Speaker 1: issues it's trying to address where I don't know. I mean, ultimately,

1617
01:40:17,880 --> 01:40:21,720
Speaker 1: I'm glad that it tries it. We don't quite have

1618
01:40:21,840 --> 01:40:25,840
Speaker 1: the run time to meet every single arc, but I

1619
01:40:25,880 --> 01:40:29,520
Speaker 1: mean the fact that it's a heist movie that addresses

1620
01:40:29,720 --> 01:40:35,160
Speaker 1: racial injustice and class injustice and misogyny. It tackles a

1621
01:40:35,280 --> 01:40:38,240
Speaker 1: hell of a lot in two hours, and it all

1622
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:42,400
Speaker 1: makes sense in the story and it's just it it

1623
01:40:42,760 --> 01:40:46,240
Speaker 1: comes together. It's it's really good. Um, most of the

1624
01:40:46,240 --> 01:40:48,640
Speaker 1: issues I have with this movie is just stories that

1625
01:40:48,680 --> 01:40:51,160
Speaker 1: it doesn't quite have the time to follow through on.

1626
01:40:51,280 --> 01:40:53,439
Speaker 1: It's not really what they do that I have an

1627
01:40:53,439 --> 01:40:55,640
Speaker 1: issue with. That's what they didn't have time to do.

1628
01:40:55,880 --> 01:40:57,559
Speaker 1: I wish. I mean, we should have known more about

1629
01:40:57,560 --> 01:40:59,960
Speaker 1: the Mannings, We should have known more about Michelle read

1630
01:41:00,000 --> 01:41:04,640
Speaker 1: Egas and Cynthia Rivo, et cetera. Yeah, so yeah, I'll

1631
01:41:04,720 --> 01:41:07,600
Speaker 1: let's go for it. And I will also give a

1632
01:41:07,880 --> 01:41:12,800
Speaker 1: nipple a piece to the widows. Nice Michael, Michelle, what

1633
01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:16,760
Speaker 1: about you? I am also going to give it for um,

1634
01:41:16,800 --> 01:41:20,200
Speaker 1: you know, kind of like you all said everything, everything

1635
01:41:20,360 --> 01:41:24,360
Speaker 1: that they attempted. I really I really appreciate and enjoyed it,

1636
01:41:24,360 --> 01:41:27,200
Speaker 1: and pretty I loved it as a work. It's I'm

1637
01:41:27,200 --> 01:41:29,760
Speaker 1: pretty be honest. I think it was my favorite of

1638
01:41:29,800 --> 01:41:34,120
Speaker 1: that year and I think also my personal favorite hist movie. Um.

1639
01:41:34,600 --> 01:41:37,000
Speaker 1: I just I think it's it's just it's it's really grounded.

1640
01:41:37,240 --> 01:41:40,080
Speaker 1: I think I think all the women feel like real

1641
01:41:40,080 --> 01:41:42,920
Speaker 1: women and they don't feel like our types of women

1642
01:41:42,920 --> 01:41:44,840
Speaker 1: for the sake of like woman hasn't been a movie,

1643
01:41:44,880 --> 01:41:49,000
Speaker 1: which is nice. Um totally, and I love I love

1644
01:41:49,040 --> 01:41:52,360
Speaker 1: the all four of them are soul specific in each

1645
01:41:52,400 --> 01:41:54,360
Speaker 1: of their bast wood and and and that they're all

1646
01:41:54,360 --> 01:41:59,400
Speaker 1: dealing with with with with very specific marital problems. Um,

1647
01:41:58,720 --> 01:42:01,840
Speaker 1: you know, my graphs are the same that you all have.

1648
01:42:02,080 --> 01:42:05,400
Speaker 1: You know that I wish that the great thing that

1649
01:42:05,400 --> 01:42:06,920
Speaker 1: they that they had given us kind of head head

1650
01:42:07,040 --> 01:42:09,240
Speaker 1: any more time to be able to kind of kind

1651
01:42:09,240 --> 01:42:12,320
Speaker 1: of blosom kind of um with the run time. But

1652
01:42:12,360 --> 01:42:14,680
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that it's a second tone, you know,

1653
01:42:14,760 --> 01:42:18,000
Speaker 1: and then and then and then it exists, and um,

1654
01:42:18,120 --> 01:42:21,360
Speaker 1: and I'm also really pissed that it didn't get more

1655
01:42:21,400 --> 01:42:25,439
Speaker 1: more than Awards season. Um, yes, absolutely, because I got

1656
01:42:25,439 --> 01:42:29,080
Speaker 1: completely snubbed by the Golden Globes and the Academy, right,

1657
01:42:29,280 --> 01:42:32,360
Speaker 1: is that remembering it? Right? Yeah? Completely. I was just

1658
01:42:32,760 --> 01:42:34,480
Speaker 1: I was like, so, we're just not going to acknowledge

1659
01:42:34,479 --> 01:42:38,360
Speaker 1: that this magic. It's fine. I'm not better at five

1660
01:42:39,200 --> 01:42:45,519
Speaker 1: okay over it kind of But yeah, So I love

1661
01:42:45,560 --> 01:42:48,000
Speaker 1: this movie. I wish it could have given us more,

1662
01:42:48,080 --> 01:42:50,720
Speaker 1: but um, I kind of explored more and kind of

1663
01:42:50,720 --> 01:42:52,880
Speaker 1: given us more death. But I'm glad to existed. So

1664
01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:57,880
Speaker 1: I'll give it four stars. Nice, amazing, Well, thank you

1665
01:42:57,920 --> 01:43:00,280
Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Yeah, thank you. This was

1666
01:43:00,320 --> 01:43:02,320
Speaker 1: such a blast. Thank you so much for having me.

1667
01:43:02,880 --> 01:43:05,720
Speaker 1: I love you. I really appreciate your working. It was

1668
01:43:06,000 --> 01:43:09,720
Speaker 1: really fun to talk to you all. Likewise, thanks for

1669
01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:13,200
Speaker 1: bringing us this movie. This was so fun. Where can

1670
01:43:13,280 --> 01:43:16,040
Speaker 1: we find more of your work? Where can we follow you?

1671
01:43:16,160 --> 01:43:19,160
Speaker 1: Plug away? Yeah, so I am. You can follow me

1672
01:43:19,320 --> 01:43:22,160
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram, on on on Twitter, on films

1673
01:43:22,200 --> 01:43:27,200
Speaker 1: and films, fe m M E s N Films, and

1674
01:43:27,240 --> 01:43:30,240
Speaker 1: then on Twitter, I'm Michael Michelle. So I'm Michael Michelle,

1675
01:43:30,280 --> 01:43:32,600
Speaker 1: and then with three e's at the end, um, and

1676
01:43:32,640 --> 01:43:36,479
Speaker 1: then I've worked in teen, Vogue and Vogue and L

1677
01:43:36,920 --> 01:43:41,040
Speaker 1: and Harvard Bazaar, UM and Nylon, and you can just

1678
01:43:41,160 --> 01:43:43,880
Speaker 1: I'm Michael Michelle at all of those sites. And I'm

1679
01:43:43,880 --> 01:43:46,840
Speaker 1: just feeling up thing around the internet, you know, and

1680
01:43:47,400 --> 01:43:51,960
Speaker 1: um in school, uh, trying to get a film degree

1681
01:43:52,080 --> 01:43:57,040
Speaker 1: and yep, so very relatable stuff. So we're just here

1682
01:43:57,120 --> 01:43:59,880
Speaker 1: trying to make art, review art. I'm just here on

1683
01:44:00,040 --> 01:44:04,479
Speaker 1: in this hell. Yes, And you can find us in

1684
01:44:04,560 --> 01:44:07,160
Speaker 1: all the usual places. You can find us on Instagram

1685
01:44:07,400 --> 01:44:10,080
Speaker 1: and Twitter, at bachtel cast, you can find us on

1686
01:44:10,120 --> 01:44:15,120
Speaker 1: our Patreon ak Matreon at patreon dot com, slash backtel Cast,

1687
01:44:15,120 --> 01:44:19,120
Speaker 1: where you get to bonus episodes a month for simply

1688
01:44:19,640 --> 01:44:23,320
Speaker 1: five dollars a month. Wow, in addition to our almost

1689
01:44:23,320 --> 01:44:30,440
Speaker 1: one hundred episode back catalog. Wow. Incredible, brave of us.

1690
01:44:32,000 --> 01:44:36,200
Speaker 1: And you can also grab some merch at our merch store,

1691
01:44:36,320 --> 01:44:40,320
Speaker 1: t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. There's all

1692
01:44:40,400 --> 01:44:43,880
Speaker 1: kinds of good ease, so go grab them. I haven't

1693
01:44:43,960 --> 01:44:48,280
Speaker 1: heard the word goodies used in casual conversation and many moods.

1694
01:44:48,360 --> 01:44:53,679
Speaker 1: Thank you for that any time. And uh, Jamie, we've

1695
01:44:54,080 --> 01:44:59,280
Speaker 1: successfully pulled off this podcast that we've all done together.

1696
01:44:59,439 --> 01:45:01,920
Speaker 1: So now come we kill Liam Neeson. So we can

1697
01:45:02,000 --> 01:45:06,680
Speaker 1: kill Liam Neeson and now we have five million dollars

1698
01:45:07,080 --> 01:45:10,480
Speaker 1: with Bay