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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes, and.

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Speaker 2: I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new

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Speaker 2: insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you doing today?

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Speaker 1: I'm exhausted. Do you know what happened yesterday? You don't.

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Speaker 2: Let me read your mind here?

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Speaker 1: So yesterday my fourth book came out. I can't even

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Speaker 1: believe I have a first number one book that ever

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Speaker 1: came out, let alone a fourth, My fourth one came

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Speaker 1: out yesterday.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how you do that? How do you

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Speaker 2: write so many books?

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Speaker 1: It's a drive I have you and I've talked about it.

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Speaker 1: It's also a fear, a fear because I'm, you know,

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Speaker 1: the main breadwinner. In my family. So I'm driven by

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Speaker 1: fear and love of writing, and then back to fear,

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Speaker 1: I would say, back to fear. But it's been a

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Speaker 1: really great experience. You know, this is we're well, first

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Speaker 1: of all, welcome back because we're back from winter break

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Speaker 1: and it's been such a whirlwind for me because of

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Speaker 1: this book. But you know, did you have some good holidays?

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Speaker 1: I hope I missed you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I visited my parents out in Hawaii.

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Speaker 2: That's a tough time to travel between Christmas and New

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Speaker 2: Year's out to Hawaii. But yeah, definitely was a good time.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Well that's great. I'm going to be doing some

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Speaker 1: traveling I hope in the Northeast for this book. You

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Speaker 1: are featured, my friend prominently in the book because it

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Speaker 1: is very buried Bones esque. Do you remember me talking

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Speaker 1: to you, like a year ago or more about the

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Speaker 1: case of the woman in eighteen thirty two hanging from

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Speaker 1: a haystack pole on a rural farm in New England?

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Speaker 1: You remember that? Does that ring a bell to you?

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Speaker 2: That is ringing a bell?

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Speaker 1: So you were so helpful for me because this book,

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Speaker 1: it's called The Sinner's All Bow. It is a case

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Speaker 1: from eighteen thirty two about a woman who was a

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Speaker 1: member of a Methodist church. She's got some secrets that

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Speaker 1: she has kept, and she is found by a farmer

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Speaker 1: one day, as I said, hanging from a haystack pole.

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Speaker 1: And the question is whether this was murder or suicide.

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Speaker 1: If it is murder, who did it? There are certainly suspects,

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Speaker 1: including a minister from the church, the Methodist church where

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Speaker 1: she was. You know, I think one of the things

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Speaker 1: that I do that I've never done before is I'm

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Speaker 1: reinvestigating this case from eighteen thirty two. Does that seem

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Speaker 1: like I'm really up a creek here already? Have you

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Speaker 1: ever investigated a case from eighteen thirty two?

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Speaker 2: Oh? No, you know, but it's like any cold cases,

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Speaker 2: you have to work with what you got, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And I think with something from eighteen thirty two, obviously

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Speaker 2: no one is ever going to get criminally charged, And

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Speaker 2: so I think you can be a little bit looser

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Speaker 2: in terms of maybe some assumptions that you have to make,

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Speaker 2: or even some speculation you need to do to fill

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Speaker 2: in some of the holes and the investigation, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and this was a very very important case. What

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Speaker 1: I ended up doing which was very interesting and unique

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Speaker 1: for me. Was I ended up working with another journalist,

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Speaker 1: which I've never really done before. But this was a

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Speaker 1: journalist who reported on this case and wrote a book

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Speaker 1: on the case in eighteen thirty three. So I'm using

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Speaker 1: her notes, I'm using the book that she wrote, talked

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Speaker 1: to her descendants, and we are investigating this case. Catherine

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Speaker 1: Williams and I together more than one hundred years after

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Speaker 1: she died. Wow, it's been such a great experience for me.

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Speaker 1: She spoke to all the family members, she you know,

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Speaker 1: interviewed witnesses, she interviewed the corner. She had really great

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Speaker 1: notes and just really great thoughts. The problem was she

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Speaker 1: really hated the Methodists. They were pretty different than they

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Speaker 1: are now. They were really wild, and they had tent

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Speaker 1: revivals that were crazy, and they were seen, as you know,

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Speaker 1: like seducing young women. So she was very clearly biased,

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Speaker 1: which is very important to not be in journalism as

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Speaker 1: much as we can. So taking her notes, reading her assessment,

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Speaker 1: now you have to take all that with a grain

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Speaker 1: of salt. We're all humans. And then I, you know,

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Speaker 1: of course, leaned in on you for my twenty first

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Speaker 1: century perspective along with toxicologists and other experts. I talked

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Speaker 1: to a not expert, you know, people who could really

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Speaker 1: give me some insight. And I hired a handwriting analyst,

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Speaker 1: which I had never done before.

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Speaker 2: Oh interesting, which.

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Speaker 1: Was incredibly helped. It was amazing. She gave me a

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Speaker 1: full chart and she led me to some really good

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Speaker 1: conclusions about this story. The most interesting part is that

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Speaker 1: I think is that this was the inspiration for Nathaniel

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Speaker 1: Hawthorne to write The Scarlet Letter. So this is the

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Speaker 1: story of the real Hester Print. I'm going to take

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Speaker 1: a wild stab and say you've never read The Scarlet Letter, that.

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Speaker 2: You think that's a wild stab?

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Speaker 1: Is that a lock?

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Speaker 2: That is a lock. I am not one to read

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Speaker 2: the so called classics.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about that before. I'm not going to go

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Speaker 1: down that road, that sad road. The Scarlet Letter is

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Speaker 1: an incredible book, and so Sarah Cornell is the real

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Speaker 1: Hester Print. And I think when you see the parallels

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Speaker 1: of the story of the woman who wears the a

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Speaker 1: and is publicly humiliated and everything that goes into that,

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Speaker 1: I think we just learn a lot about our lives now,

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Speaker 1: how we view women, how much has changed, how much

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Speaker 1: has stayed the same. So I'm super excited to have

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Speaker 1: this book come out in the dead of winter, ready

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Speaker 1: to roll starting a new year. And this book gives

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Speaker 1: me so much great joy, and I'm really grateful that

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Speaker 1: you were able to be a part of it. Paul.

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Speaker 2: Hey, no, I appreciate you including me as part of

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Speaker 2: the book. You know, I, of course I think it's

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Speaker 2: the best book ever.

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Speaker 1: You got that from me. I asked you to give

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Speaker 1: a recommendation for a good little like a little thing

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Speaker 1: to say about the book, and you said you would say,

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Speaker 1: the best book ever. Thank you, Paul. I appreciate that,

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Speaker 1: and to reward you, I am going to offer you

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Speaker 1: one of the most complicated, hefty, tragic cases I think

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Speaker 1: we've ever covered on this show in the several that

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Speaker 1: we've had this show on. It is a two parter.

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Speaker 1: It is something that warranted a series, a TV series,

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Speaker 1: and it was a really big case. And I'll see

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Speaker 1: what you think about it. It's really something, all right,

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Speaker 1: Bring it on, Okay, let's set the scene. I am

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Speaker 1: going to listeners, tell you where this story came from,

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Speaker 1: because many of you probably have heard about the case

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Speaker 1: or saw the TV series, and I'm going to see

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Speaker 1: if Paul has seen the series or heard about this case,

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Speaker 1: and then I'm going to give you some caveats. So

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Speaker 1: if that weren't cryptic enough, here I go. This is

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Speaker 1: the story that is based on the TV series The Keepers.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever see that, Paul?

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Speaker 2: I did not, though I do remember seeing it being advertised,

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Speaker 2: I believe.

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Speaker 1: So it's the story of a Catholic nun who was

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Speaker 1: murdered in nineteen sixty nine at a all girls Catholic

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Speaker 1: high school in Baltimore. Does that case? Does that ring

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Speaker 1: a bell? Kathy says, nope, not at all. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to disclose something right from the beginning, especially if people

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Speaker 1: have read about this case or have seen The Keepers.

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Speaker 1: It was a really difficult series for me to watch,

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Speaker 1: and it involves very, very graphic accounts of rampant sex

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Speaker 1: abuse at this all girls Catholic high school by male priests.

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Speaker 1: I am not going to go through all of that.

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Speaker 1: I don't think there is any doubt whatsoever that there

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Speaker 1: are several men who are main characters that we'll be

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Speaker 1: talking about, who sexually abused young women at this high

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Speaker 1: school and frankly at other places where they had been before.

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Speaker 1: So I am not going to go through all of that.

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Speaker 1: I am going to avoid graphic terms that I really

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Speaker 1: we could talk about, because what I want to focus

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Speaker 1: on is the probability that our victim was murdered, and

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Speaker 1: she was murdered because she knew about this abuse, because

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Speaker 1: there are many other suspects in this but that is

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Speaker 1: a viable route to go down. So I considered when

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Speaker 1: I was going to do this story, I was going

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Speaker 1: to say, well, if he doesn't know the story, I

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Speaker 1: was telling myself this, If Paul doesn't know the story,

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Speaker 1: then I'll reveal all the sex abuse that happens. I

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Speaker 1: just don't want people who know this case to be

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Speaker 1: fearful that I'm going to disclose a lot of details.

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Speaker 1: There was stuff in our research packet that I just

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Speaker 1: cut loads out of because I just don't want to

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Speaker 1: go through all of that. So just know this is documented.

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Speaker 1: This abuse happened, and it could have been a motive

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Speaker 1: for why this woman ended up dead. But there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of other motives too. So let's get going here.

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Speaker 1: We're in Baltimore in nineteen sixty nine, and as I

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Speaker 1: said before, this involves a Catholic all girls high school

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Speaker 1: called Archbishop Keio High School. The keepers, you know, along

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Speaker 1: with a lot of the other resources that were used here,

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Speaker 1: does an excellent job digging up a lot of sources,

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Speaker 1: a lot of witnesses. I will warn you, Paul, this

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Speaker 1: is very heavy with witnesses. I mean there is little

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Speaker 1: to know forensics. Of course, I say that, and then

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Speaker 1: sometimes you're like, you don't know what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: There's lots of forensics. You said that a couple of episodes.

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Speaker 1: I'm never going to forget that. But this really, at

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Speaker 1: first blush for me, is really witness heavy, so you know,

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Speaker 1: and contradictory stuff. So know that going in. Does that

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Speaker 1: make you nervous about cases in general where everything seems

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Speaker 1: to rely on eyewitnesses or ear witnesses or you know,

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Speaker 1: memories that are fuzzy from years before and there's not

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Speaker 1: a lot else.

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Speaker 2: No, Yeah, I think the more witnesses that you have

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Speaker 2: that are able to provide details, as long as there's

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Speaker 2: a contamination between the witnesses, you know, they're not getting

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Speaker 2: together and collaborating before being interviewed, it gives greater confidence

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Speaker 2: in terms of Okay, the details that each of these

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Speaker 2: witnesses are able to provide must be correct. Having you know,

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Speaker 2: worked cases particularly like Golden State Killer, where you know

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Speaker 2: you have this huge case and of witnesses, I've seen

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Speaker 2: where information can be misconstrued and can lead the investigation

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Speaker 2: down the wrong path. That's where I'm always wanting to

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Speaker 2: see that objective physical evidence such as the DNA, you know,

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Speaker 2: if you're dealing with trying to place somebody at a

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Speaker 2: certain you know, at a certain location or with a

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Speaker 2: particular victim. But it sounds like in this case it's

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Speaker 2: in a high school, So I'm assuming that you have

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Speaker 2: a lot of witnesses either students, teachers, religious authorities that

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Speaker 2: are all present within this structure.

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Speaker 1: Yes, there are a lot of people at the high school,

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Speaker 1: and the victim in our case, sister Kathy, has a

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Speaker 1: very wide circle of people she's exposed to. But the

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Speaker 1: night that she disappears gets complicated. So let's jump into this.

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Speaker 1: It's a Friday night, November seventh, nineteen sixty nine. There

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Speaker 1: is a woman who is a nun named Sister Helen

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Speaker 1: Russell Phillips. We will call her Sister Russell. That's how

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Speaker 1: she went. She's worried because it's close to midnight and

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Speaker 1: her roommate who is her close friend is another nun

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Speaker 1: named sister Kathy, Saysnick. And that's our victim. Kathy, Saysnick.

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Speaker 1: She's not home, and she's left the house around seven

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Speaker 1: to do some shopping in a nearby shopping center. And

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Speaker 1: there's no way this woman, this nun, is out until midnight,

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Speaker 1: beside the fact that she said, you know, I'll be

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Speaker 1: home shortly. They know each other really well. Sister Russell

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Speaker 1: is even more concerned because she knows of Kathy's you know,

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Speaker 1: character and everything in her habits. They both teach at

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Speaker 1: the all girls Catholic High School. Sister Kathy and Sister

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Speaker 1: Russell are currently taking off this school year because they're

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Speaker 1: on like a church sanctioned leave of absence from none life.

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Speaker 1: And this year they're teaching at a public high school.

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Speaker 1: So sister Kathy at either school is popular and young.

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Speaker 1: She's an English teacher, her student's lover. So you know,

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Speaker 1: all of this is to say that this is not

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Speaker 1: a what you would call a quote unquote high risk victim.

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Speaker 1: All it's midnight and a nun is not back home

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Speaker 1: when she should be already.

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Speaker 2: All right, remind me where does sister Kathy go that evening.

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Speaker 1: She's doing a little bit of shopping at a nearby

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Speaker 1: shopping center, so she's not far off. But it's night,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's November. It's probably gotten dark early. Let's

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Speaker 1: go back a little bit because right now sister Russell

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Speaker 1: is worried and she's sort of reviewing what happens earlier

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Speaker 1: in the day. So let's just talk about what we

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Speaker 1: know about what happened earlier before we figure out where

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Speaker 1: she disappeared and why she disappeared. So earlier in that day,

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Speaker 1: there was a student named Juliana Farrell, and she is

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Speaker 1: lingering for a few minutes after English class to talk

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Speaker 1: to sister Kathy. Sister Kathy says she's about to go

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Speaker 1: buy a present for her sister who just got engaged.

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Speaker 1: So that's part of the shopping trip is to get

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Speaker 1: this engagement present. After school, about three o'clock, we know,

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Speaker 1: sister Kathy goes back to her apartment. This is a

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Speaker 1: complex of garden apartments with several three story buildings, and

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Speaker 1: about seven o'clock, Kathy leaves her apartment and drives to

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Speaker 1: the bank, and she goes to a bakery where she

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Speaker 1: buys some dinner roles and she goes to a shopping

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Speaker 1: center called the Edmundson Village Shopping Center, So we have

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Speaker 1: witnesses all over the place who kind of track her

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Speaker 1: in a way. It's good to know with this timeline.

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Speaker 1: According to one witness, she goes back to her apartment

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Speaker 1: building and parks her car in its normal parking space,

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Speaker 1: but she never enters the building. This witness says that

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Speaker 1: she saw Kathy sitting in the parking lot in her

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Speaker 1: car until eight thirty. So you know, between seven o'clock

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Speaker 1: and eight thirty, she's out shopping and sister Russell is

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Speaker 1: sitting at home, you know, waiting for her to come back,

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Speaker 1: which would have eight to thirty would have been reasonable.

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Speaker 1: But one witness says that she sees Kathy sitting in

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Speaker 1: her car in the normal parking spot outside the apartment,

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Speaker 1: not going back in and saying, hey, how's it going,

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Speaker 1: you know, sister Russell. So we know somebody saw her

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Speaker 1: who knew her sitting in the car. This is a

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Speaker 1: neighbor who was going back and forth unloading bags of

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Speaker 1: grocery and bringing them up to her own apartment. So again,

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Speaker 1: if this witness is correct, then Kathy had driven her

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Speaker 1: own car back to the complex and parked it. We

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Speaker 1: don't know what she was doing in the car, according

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Speaker 1: to this one witness, but there are lots of people

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Speaker 1: so far who were talking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So this this neighbor, does she indicate over what

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Speaker 2: span a time she sees Kathy sitting in her own car.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like to me the amount of time was.

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Speaker 1: However many trips it took for her to go, this

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Speaker 1: woman to go back and forth taking her groceries from

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Speaker 1: the car to her own apartment. I would imagine it's

285
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Speaker 1: just a few minutes. I don't think it was a

286
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Speaker 1: long time, sure, you know, I mean, I don't think

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Speaker 1: that she thought there was anything unusual about it, So

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Speaker 1: it wasn't alarming. So she was unloading.

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Speaker 2: Groceries, okay, And I was just kind of curious if

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00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,200
Speaker 2: this this witness, you know, like later in the evening,

291
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,280
Speaker 2: looked out and saw Kathy still sitting a car. Doesn't

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00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:02,080
Speaker 2: sound like that's the.

293
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Speaker 1: Case, No, I don't think so. So let me tell

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00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,760
Speaker 1: you about their apartment complex. Their apartment is on the

295
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,560
Speaker 1: ground floor, up a few outdoor steps from the parking lot,

296
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,640
Speaker 1: and then through a little gate to an outdoor hallway

297
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,320
Speaker 1: with a couple of other doors. So plenty of single

298
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,240
Speaker 1: women live on ground floor apartments. They scare me to death,

299
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Speaker 1: but obviously that increases vulnerability. I know that in this case,

300
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Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like she even made it into her apartment,

301
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,560
Speaker 1: but there's still that that. I'm sure there wasn't security really,

302
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,320
Speaker 1: and you know they're on the ground floor already. I

303
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,840
Speaker 1: feel a little bit vulnerable for both of those women.

304
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,920
Speaker 2: Of course, with the ground floor, whether it be an

305
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,640
Speaker 2: apartment or a house, you know, you have multiple access

306
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:50,400
Speaker 2: points and an offender could potentially enter the residence or

307
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,880
Speaker 2: observe the victims where they are at within the residence,

308
00:16:55,280 --> 00:17:00,160
Speaker 2: So there is an increased level of vulnerability. You're correct.

309
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,119
Speaker 2: In this case, does Kathy make it back into her

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Speaker 2: apartment or no?

311
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,800
Speaker 1: Nope, she never makes it back in that we know of,

312
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,119
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, sister Russell's sitting there at home

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Speaker 1: waiting on her. So more witnesses, Paul. There is a

314
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,600
Speaker 1: young woman who's a sophomore, and she is near Kathy's

315
00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,840
Speaker 1: apartment complex. She's just a few blocks away. Sometime that evening,

316
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,439
Speaker 1: she couldn't give an exact time. She and her friend,

317
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Speaker 1: who also went to the same high school where Kathy

318
00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,440
Speaker 1: taught are in the area. They hear a very loud

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Speaker 1: sound that this witness describes as a man yelling coming

320
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,639
Speaker 1: from the direction of sister Kathy's complex. We don't know

321
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,480
Speaker 1: when this happened. That's all they heard. That might not

322
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,240
Speaker 1: have anything to do with this story. I'm pretty sure

323
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Speaker 1: you're about to say, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, right now, it's just a random observation

325
00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:54,439
Speaker 2: ear witness. And this is where if there's corroboration with

326
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,159
Speaker 2: other witnesses within the apartment complex, then it becomes a

327
00:17:58,200 --> 00:17:59,360
Speaker 2: little bit more significant.

328
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Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, now we get complicated because now we get

329
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,480
Speaker 1: more characters. So you know, for now we had just

330
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,200
Speaker 1: had Sister Russell and Sister Kathy. Now we're going to

331
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Speaker 1: get into more of the inner workings of this old

332
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:16,480
Speaker 1: girls Catholic High school. At eleven o'clock, Sister Russell is

333
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Speaker 1: really worried because this is way out of her character.

334
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Speaker 1: At midnight, she finally calls someone, but it's not the police.

335
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Speaker 1: She calls a priest named Father Jerry kob and he's

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Speaker 1: good friends with Sister Kathy. So Father Jerry lives in Annapolis, Maryland,

337
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Speaker 1: which is about thirty miles away. He has a friend

338
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Speaker 1: who they refer to as Brother Pete McKeon, who is

339
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,080
Speaker 1: with him that evening. So Brother Pete is a Christian brother,

340
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Speaker 1: a layman who participates in the church. These two men

341
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Speaker 1: are at dinner, they go see Easy Rider. They go

342
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Speaker 1: back to Jerry's house in Annapolis at about ten thirty

343
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,720
Speaker 1: and they sit and talk about this movie for a

344
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Speaker 1: few minutes, and then they get the call from Sister

345
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Speaker 1: Russell that Kathy hasn't come home yet, and you know,

346
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,719
Speaker 1: of course the police eventually we'll talk to Jerry. And

347
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,200
Speaker 1: it sounds like Sister Russell is asking if these two

348
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,240
Speaker 1: men have seen Kathy. Everybody's friends, you know, and Jerry

349
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,360
Speaker 1: and Pete McKeon said they haven't seen her, and now

350
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Speaker 1: they're worried. So they drive the thirty miles to Sister

351
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Speaker 1: Russell and Sister Kathy's place. Jerry says that they talked

352
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Speaker 1: to Sister Russell for about an hour before they call

353
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Speaker 1: the police at one am. This all seems late. I

354
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,119
Speaker 1: hate judging people when they call police late. But she

355
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,240
Speaker 1: was starting to worry around it seems like ten o'clock

356
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,439
Speaker 1: and they waited until one am, and she's deferring to

357
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Speaker 1: this male priest.

358
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think when I think about Sister Russell's actions

359
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,840
Speaker 2: and calling Father Jerry, I'm wondering did she even look

360
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,359
Speaker 2: out in the parking lot to see if sister Kathy's

361
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:51,400
Speaker 2: car was present?

362
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:52,840
Speaker 1: Doesn't sound like it.

363
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 2: And part of Sister Russell's actions may be attributed to

364
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,879
Speaker 2: maybe the culture within the Catholic church. You know, this father,

365
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 2: this priest who's a friend of Sister Kathy, may be

366
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 2: seen as somewhat of an authority figure and she's looking

367
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:11,840
Speaker 2: for guidance from Father Jerry. However, it is odd if

368
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 2: she's that worried reaching out to somebody who's thirty miles

369
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 2: away versus trying to figure out, you know, where is

370
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 2: sister Kathy. You know, if Kathy has gone over to

371
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Speaker 2: Father Jerry's place, then Kathy would have driven her car

372
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 2: there and a you know, a simple glance out into

373
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Speaker 2: the parking lot would answer that question.

374
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. I'm not sure why she decided to

375
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 1: call them first. Maybe we'll have some more information later.

376
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,320
Speaker 1: In the Netflix series that came out in twenty seventeen,

377
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:50,360
Speaker 1: the Keeper's sister, Kathy's younger sister Marilyn, calls brother Pete

378
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 1: so he's eighty five in twenty seventeen, and he says,

379
00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,200
Speaker 1: you know that they drove together to sister Kathy's from Annapolis,

380
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,440
Speaker 1: and you know they come and they talk to sister

381
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,720
Speaker 1: Russell for a while. Now we get into the evidence.

382
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,879
Speaker 1: So the police come. They're there, they don't apparently see

383
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 1: her car, which we've been thinking about. The police officer

384
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 1: takes down sister Kathy's information and leaves. At about four o'clock.

385
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 1: The men are still at the apartment. So this is

386
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 1: Jerry and Pete. They go for a walk and directly

387
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,119
Speaker 1: across the street from her apartment, they see her car

388
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,679
Speaker 1: and it looks out of place, and I have a

389
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 1: photo of it. It's parked by the side of the

390
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 1: road at a corner and the back of the car

391
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,200
Speaker 1: is sticking out past the corner into the perpendicular street.

392
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 1: And there are some weird details about it. So it's

393
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 1: a nineteen sixty nine Ford Maverick and the driver's side

394
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 1: door is unlocked. Now, do you want to see a

395
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 1: photo or do you want me to tell you the

396
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 1: weird stuff they found inside?

397
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 2: No, I want to see the photo. But it sounds

398
00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 2: like Kathy's car has now been moved at some point

399
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 2: after the neighbor who is unloading groceries saw the car

400
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 2: parked in the normal spot.

401
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 1: You got it, good interpretation, Okay, let me show it

402
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,359
Speaker 1: to you. Hang on hopefully this is a good angle.

403
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 1: It's a good photo. There's the car parked illegally, and

404
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:16,120
Speaker 1: then you see her apartment.

405
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: Well, look at that. Okay, So I'm looking at a photograph.

406
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,199
Speaker 2: The car is in the foreground with the front of

407
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 2: the car facing the photographer, and then in the backdrop

408
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 2: is Kathy's apartment complex, and there is a red X

409
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,879
Speaker 2: showing the location of her apartment in that complex. In

410
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 2: between the car and the apartment complex appears to be

411
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 2: a road. And so this vehicle, this Ford Maverick, which

412
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 2: is Kathy's, has pulled onto it looks like a driveway

413
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 2: or an entrance to another building. But it hasn't pulled

414
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 2: all the way off the road. So the trunk side

415
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 2: of Kathy's car is somewhat jutting out into this roadway.

416
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 2: This obviously is not a normal way for the vehicle

417
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 2: to be parked. It looks like somebody in haste abandoned

418
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 2: this vehicle.

419
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,440
Speaker 1: Yep, I think that's a good description. Let me tell

420
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,120
Speaker 1: you what they found on the inside, which is really interesting,

421
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 1: really weird. I would say, the driver's side door is unlocked,

422
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: and these two men open it. They're not police officers,

423
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 1: they're not wearing gloves. They just look at it. They

424
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 1: open it. They see a twig hanging from the left

425
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 1: side of the steering wheel, and father Jerry says, it

426
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: looks like the twig has been tied to the turn signal.

427
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,959
Speaker 1: The whole car is full of leaves and twigs, and

428
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 1: the tires are muddy. It clearly looks like it has

429
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 1: been in a muddy, swampy area, which is not anywhere

430
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 1: around the apartment complex. And there's mud on the gas

431
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: pedal but not on the brake pedal. And eventually investigators

432
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: are going to wonder if the driver of the car

433
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: drove with both fees or what happened. So what do

434
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: you think about this layout in general? I was a

435
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: little confused about the twig tied to the turn signal

436
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: and the steering wheel. Why would somebody do that?

437
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 2: Well, first, I think, you know, addressing the soil the

438
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 2: mud as well as the vegetation. That's significant anytime I

439
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 2: am processing a crime scene. Of course, I'm looking for

440
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 2: evidence that places, let's say, the offender at that crime scene,

441
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 2: but I'm also looking to see what's at that crime

442
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 2: scene that the offender could have taken with them. It's

443
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 2: a two way street in terms of physical evidence transfer.

444
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 2: So this vehicle has mud and vegetation that is not

445
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 2: from the location we're found. So after Cathy was seen

446
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 2: by the neighbor in her parking space, this vehicle has

447
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 2: gone to a separate location, and of course now has

448
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 2: brought this mud and this veget with it back to

449
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: across the street from the apartment complex. So I'm going

450
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 2: to be paying a lot of attention to that evidence.

451
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 2: Is there anything about this vegetation or the soil that

452
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: I can use to figure out where this vehicle went?

453
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 2: Is there something unique about it? You know, And I've

454
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 2: processed vehicles where I'm not just restricting myself to vegetation

455
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 2: and soil. I'm looking at bugs on the windshield or

456
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 2: in the grill. Are there insects that could be from

457
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 2: a very specific area that can help place that vehicle

458
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 2: at that location? Pallen out of the air filter, you know,

459
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 2: if you have things that are being trapped within the

460
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 2: air filter, So there's so much that could potentially be done.

461
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 2: The twig tied around the turn signal, you know, I

462
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 2: would want to see a photo of that. Was this

463
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 2: a purposeful act, you know? Or was this just something

464
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,880
Speaker 2: that randomly occur because whoever's now sitting inside this vehicle

465
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: has maybe this vegetation stuck to sleeves and the twig

466
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 2: just gets wrapped around as the person is driving. Or

467
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 2: is this a mechanism to keep the turn signal on,

468
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 2: to keep the turn signal off? You know? Right now,

469
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 2: it seems pretty vague, But if it's purposefully tied, any

470
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 2: time an offender does something, especially if it's not to

471
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 2: get away with committing a crime, you have to pay

472
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 2: attention to that.

473
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: I think it's unclear. Father Jerry is the one who's

474
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: saying this. He's the source, you know, who looked at it,

475
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: and he says it looked like it had been tied.

476
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: But we're not seeing anything from investigators, and I haven't

477
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: seen a photo. So let's say that the police are

478
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 1: now interested that Jerry and Pete are the ones who

479
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: found this car, and it sounds like, you know, sister

480
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: Russell had never looked to see if the car were

481
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: there or not. It's right across the street. They give

482
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: Pete and Jerry polygraph exam, which we know how we

483
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 1: feel about that, and they pass. I know how they

484
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 1: feel about that. They have ticket steps from easy Rider,

485
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: but there's no eyewitness. I don't know if anybody even

486
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: knew them. So sounds kind of squishy as they're each

487
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: other's alibi. But you know, at the same time, we

488
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 1: don't know of a motive just yet for what would happen.

489
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: We don't even know where she is at this point.

490
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, but aren't Jerry and petd with Sister Russell in

491
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 2: the apartment till four am? They are, yes, okay, so

492
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 2: they can aliby each other out. But they also Sister

493
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: Russell who's saying, well, they were here.

494
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 1: She called them at eleven pm. They arrived probably forty

495
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 1: five minutes later to an hour later. They're only thirty

496
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 1: miles away, and they call the police at one So

497
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 1: she disappears way before them. So in theory, they could

498
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: have driven up, taken her, killed her, gone back to Annapolis,

499
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: and then gotten the call from Sister Russell worried, and

500
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: then gone back.

501
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, the neighbor who's seeing Kathy sitting in her car.

502
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 2: That was around eight thirty, right.

503
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: Correct, yep.

504
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, So now we basically have this this time gap.

505
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 2: Kathy is last seen at eight thirty. Law enforcement arrives

506
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 2: at one thirty. So assuming that Kathy is you know,

507
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 2: she's reported missing and she's not still sitting in her

508
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 2: car in the parking lot, there's that three hour window

509
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: that something happened to Kathy. And then now you've got

510
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 2: Jerry and Pete showing up. What time do they get

511
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 2: to Kathy's apartment?

512
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: Sister Russell calls them an eleven I mean I would

513
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: bet eleven forty five to midnight, and they don't call

514
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: the police until one doesn't sound like they went outside

515
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: until four am, and that's when they make the discovery

516
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: of the car.

517
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 2: And assuming that they are in Annapolis with a thirty

518
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 2: minute drive to sister Russell's place, now we have this

519
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 2: eight thirty to roughly eleven thirty gap in which we

520
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 2: can't necessarily alibi Jerry and Pete out because as you

521
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: mentioned before, they're kind of in cohoots with the each other.

522
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: Right, So we have another witness. So remember we had

523
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: the teenage girl, the sophomore who said she heard a

524
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: man scream kind of in the direction. That could have

525
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: been anything, though, and she couldn't even give an accurate time. Ye.

526
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: So there's a witness who says that they saw a

527
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: man driving Kathy's car that evening and Kathy was in

528
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: the passenger seat. According to this witness, it looked like

529
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: she was trying to get out of the car. This

530
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: sounds like the only person who said this, And we

531
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: don't have a lot of information about this person, even

532
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: if it's a male or a female. I think it's

533
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: just another person that had information for the police.

534
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: No, but it's it's critical information because it's matching up

535
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 2: with the circumstances. You know, Kathy was seen alone in

536
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 2: her car. She never makes it into her apartment. We

537
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 2: know the car has been moved. We know there had

538
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 2: been somebody inside that car and they had gone to

539
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 2: a different location. Based off of the mud and the soil,

540
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: I would say the kind of the physical level evidence

541
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 2: that we have is at least in line with what

542
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 2: this witness seeing a man driving the car and Kathy

543
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 2: trying to get out of it, Which adds up because

544
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 2: we know Kathy is a victim. I'm putting some weight

545
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: on that observation.

546
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: Well, the police assign a detective named Lewis Romer. Everybody

547
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: calls him Bud, so I'll just say Detective Bud, Baltimore.

548
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: So the next few days we've got thirty five people

549
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: and five dogs scaring the area. They cannot find sister Kathy.

550
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: So Detective Bud gets this case. He immediately says, it

551
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: is bizarre that sister Russell calls Jerry and Pete and

552
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: not the police. They all gather together and it's several

553
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: hours before they even bother to call the police. And

554
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: of course these are the two men who discover Kathy's

555
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: car and contaminated in whatever way they might have contaminated it.

556
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: They are suspicious of Jerry. Bud pulls him in, but

557
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: before they can really press him, representatives from the Baltimore

558
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: Archdiocese come in and basically convince the police to release

559
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: Father Jerry and stop looking in that direction of the church.

560
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: How would that even happen? What kind of pressure could

561
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: the archdiocese put on the police to stop them from

562
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: looking at a potential suspect and a woman who's gone missing.

563
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 2: That is odd. There's no way law enforcement would cave

564
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: to something like that under normal circumstances, I would speculate

565
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 2: that there is some sort of political aspect that the

566
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 2: archdiocese leveraged over this detective's bosses. Basically, you know, back

567
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: off or we're going to withdraw our support, We're going

568
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: to withdraw you know, being donors to your campaign or whatever,

569
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: whatever the relationship is. There is something shady about that

570
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: from my perspective.

571
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, we'll get ready. There's a lot more shadiness

572
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: from the police. First, let's talk about the forensics. So

573
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: there's a reporter for the Baltimore Son named Robert Earlinson.

574
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: He says the police had always insisted that there was

575
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: no forensic evidence that could be recovered from sister Kathy's car.

576
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: So what anyway, I mean, I know, give me a break.

577
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: Let me tell you what they do bother to find

578
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: They find the dinner rules that she had bought that afternoon.

579
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: They find evidence that she had cashed a paycheck for

580
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty five dollars, But it doesn't sound

581
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: like they found money, and they don't find whatever this

582
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: gift was that she bought for her sister. So there's that.

583
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,719
Speaker 1: So I guess it could have been robbery, But the

584
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: mud part of it seems really weird. Right, if you're

585
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: gonna rob someone, you're just gonna take the stuff and go.

586
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: You're not gonna drive him to a muddy area and

587
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: then the person's gone missing.

588
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 2: You know, the offender probably had multiple crimes in mind.

589
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 2: You know, first you've got a woman who is isolated,

590
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 2: and then the offender gets in the vehicle and sees

591
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 2: that there's some assets that he can take with him.

592
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 2: Who knows what the initial intent was, but fundamentally Kathy

593
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: and her car are taken away, and then the car

594
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: is returned without Kathy. It seems like Kathy is the target.

595
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: Well, things get even weirder. Kathy's sister, Marilyn, is in college.

596
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: About a week after Kathy disappears, she gets a letter

597
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: in her mailbox at the dorm and it's from her sister.

598
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: A week after she disappears, she calls her dad, who

599
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: is a postal worker, and he says, don't open it

600
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: in case there could be some kind of evidence in

601
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: the letter, and to read the postmark aloud to him

602
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: over the phone, and the parsmark says November eighth, the

603
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: day after Kathy was last seen. It was sent from Baltimore,

604
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: which is where she lived. Marilyn calls the police. Okay,

605
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: the Baltimore police, the ones that we think are sketchy already,

606
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: and a man who is not wearing a uniform comes

607
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: to pick up this letter. She tells her dad that

608
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: he wasn't wearing a uniform and he says, this is

609
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: probably a detective. Could have been Bud, I don't know.

610
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: She never finds out what was in the letter. And

611
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: when this is reinvestigated in the mid twenty tens, Marilyn

612
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 1: goes to the Baltimore police and says, can I see

613
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: this letter? And they said, we've lost it. Probably I

614
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: don't know where it is. So the day after she

615
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 1: disappears and it's postmarked and it says it's from Kathy,

616
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: and the letter's gone. So there's no handwriting analysis or

617
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: DNA or anything.

618
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 2: In terms of the postmark. And this is where I

619
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 2: would be, you know, talking to postal inspectors. Think about

620
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: mailing something from whether it be from your house or

621
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 2: from you know, the standalone mailboxes. You know, the letter

622
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,240
Speaker 2: goes in and then it's in there for a period

623
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 2: of time. Now, if the letter went in, let's say

624
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: November seventh, when Kathy whose whereabouts were known, but the

625
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 2: postman has already picked up the mail from that mailbox,

626
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,959
Speaker 2: then that letter is going to be postmarked the next

627
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,399
Speaker 2: day when the postman picks it up, and it now

628
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 2: gets through the mailing system. So that's where I'm looking

629
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 2: at this postmark. And I'm not necessarily agreeing with the

630
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 2: idea that Kathy mailed this the day after she went missing.

631
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: Okay, well that's good to know. So that is another

632
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 1: thing that was one big mystery. Who is the person

633
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: in the plain clothes that came and picked this up?

634
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: We don't know. Now we have some information about one

635
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: of our two suspects. The only suspects we have of

636
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,839
Speaker 1: is of right now, so that is father Jerry and

637
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 1: brother Pete. Ultimately, it comes out that sister Kathy and

638
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: Father Jerry were more than friends. They were in love.

639
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: At least that's what father Jerry says. He says that

640
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: he wanted sister Kathy to not take her final vows

641
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: and he was not going to become ordained to be

642
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: a priest. They were both at early stages in their

643
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: career when these things would have happened. He wanted to

644
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: marry her. She said no to marriage, but there are

645
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: lots of letters, and it sounds like she really loved him.

646
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: She was conflicted. It sounded like when they search Jerry's apartment,

647
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 1: the police find a letter dated November third, which is

648
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: four days before Kathy disappeared. She says, you know, I

649
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: love you and I want to marry you and have children,

650
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: four days before she disappears. And now we have a

651
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: priest turned boyfriend in the mix of all of this.

652
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and was sister Russell a confidant.

653
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 1: Of Kathy's It sounds like it. So now, Paul, we're

654
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: going to circle back to why did she call him

655
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: instead of the police, And now I think we know

656
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 1: why because she would have likely been with him most likely.

657
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, that's making a little bit more sense to me.

658
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

659
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 2: And if there is this written proof of Kathy's emotional

660
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 2: attachment to Jerry, you know, then okay, here we've got

661
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: some victimology. And it sounds like, you know, initially when

662
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,879
Speaker 2: you said Kathy had spurned you know, then it's like, okay,

663
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 2: now do we have motive? But it seems like the

664
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 2: last correspondence Kathy is expressing that she wants to be Witcherry.

665
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 2: She wants to have kids with Cherry, and that would

666
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: be what he wants. So from that relationship perspective, it

667
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 2: doesn't appear that that would be motive. But that was

668
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 2: November third, and she goes missing November seventh. Was there

669
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: any interactions between these two where things went sideways?

670
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,720
Speaker 1: Not that sister Russell has indicated. Okay, it doesn't seem

671
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: like it. So the last interaction that we know of

672
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 1: between these two was positive. Now we're going to go

673
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: down a little bit of a different road, only briefly,

674
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:48,320
Speaker 1: because we have another disappearance. So four days after sister

675
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: Kathy disappears, so this is November eleventh, there's another young

676
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: woman who disappears under similar circumstances. This woman's name is

677
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 1: Joyce Malecky. She's twenty years old, and her body was

678
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: found on federal land and the case ends up being

679
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 1: handled by the FBI. We don't know much about this

680
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: information yet, but we will know more later on. So

681
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: she went missing and then her body was found. You know,

682
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: just know that the press has really attached itself to

683
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: this because now you have two women kind of the

684
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: same demographic, you know, attractive young women who have disappeared

685
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: within days of each other, and one's found murdered. Now

686
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 1: we're going to find the other one. So sister Kathy

687
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: is found finally. So she went missing November seventh. She

688
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: is found two months later, January third of nineteen seventy.

689
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: She's found in a small dump and landsdown in southwest

690
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: Baltimore County. She's found lying on her back about twenty

691
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 1: yards away from the road. This is not a well

692
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 1: known place, and people say you would have to be

693
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: very familiar with the area to even know where it is.

694
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: She's found with her skirt pulled up and her shirt open.

695
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: She's found in an area that a local would have

696
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: had to have known about. And I believe I have

697
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: kind of a photo of the area. I'm not sure how.

698
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a dump. So you want to

699
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: see the photo or do you want to hear more

700
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 1: autopsy stuff? First?

701
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 2: No, let me see the photo because I kind of

702
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 2: when you say dump, is this like a landfill area?

703
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's literally a dump. Okay, So you see Kathy's body.

704
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 2: So I'm looking at an aerial photograph. It appears that

705
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 2: there is a very large arterial road, if not freeway

706
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 2: that is on the southern part or the lower part

707
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 2: of the image, there's a commercial business establishment and further

708
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 2: back there's an X marking where Kathy's body was allegedly

709
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 2: located at. It's in a clearing. You know, there's a

710
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: large clearing, which I'm assuming is this landfill or dump aspect,

711
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 2: and so maybe this commercial structure that I see down

712
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 2: in the lower part of the photograph is the you know,

713
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 2: the office, et cetera for the dump. I'm not sure

714
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 2: about that. You know. One of the questions that I

715
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,240
Speaker 2: would have is that if this is an active dump

716
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 2: where people are coming flowing through here, you know all

717
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 2: the time, was Kathy's body in plane view? And then

718
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 2: why did it take two months to see it? Or

719
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 2: was Kathy's body obscured enough to where even with an

720
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 2: active business going on with you know, people flowing in

721
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 2: and out of this dump space, she would have been

722
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 2: hidden from view. Do you have any information on that?

723
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,720
Speaker 1: The notes say this is not a well known dump,

724
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: This is not a place where people have gone before, okay,

725
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: and it looks like it's kind of tucked away in

726
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 1: the corner away from the main road unless I'm wrong,

727
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 1: I mean you could actually see like a little car down.

728
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: I think that's a car down kind of traveling on

729
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: the road. So this is not as well known. And

730
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: also I'm sure she must have been covered up with

731
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: snow January in Baltimore area.

732
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 2: So and I guess the other question is is I

733
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: have made I may have made a false assumption when

734
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: you said it was a dump, that it was like

735
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,320
Speaker 2: an active business, you know as a landfill or dump

736
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,240
Speaker 2: or is this just a kind of a dump location

737
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 2: where people are illegally dumping their trash or items. Did

738
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,439
Speaker 2: you have a sense as to what's going on there.

739
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:31,919
Speaker 1: No, I don't have a sense for that. I'm sorry, Paul.

740
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: It is not a well known dump. It's twenty yards

741
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,839
Speaker 1: away from the road, so, I mean, it just says

742
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: it seems like isolated. I mean her her skirt was

743
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: pulled up and her shirt was open.

744
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 2: Well, this goes to now, Okay, I'm going to make

745
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 2: the assumption that since they're saying only somebody who knew

746
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 2: about this location, you know, has local knowledge. It's not

747
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 2: an area that you'd have a lot of people flowing

748
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 2: in and out of, so her body could have been

749
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 2: put there the night that she went missing and just

750
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 2: you know, finally somebody observed it two months later. Of course,

751
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 2: now her car has this vegetation, has this mud on it?

752
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 2: Does this vegetation and mud appear that it could have

753
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 2: originated from the dump location? So that's one of those

754
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 2: things that I would really want to know very quickly

755
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 2: in the investigation. Can I place Kathy's car where her

756
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,919
Speaker 2: body is found or was there a different location where

757
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 2: that car had gone for some reason, either with Kathy

758
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 2: or after Kathy was killed. I think next I'm going

759
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 2: to need to know autopsy results because I'm kind of curious.

760
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 2: You know, how was she killed? Could she have been

761
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 2: killed in the car? Does she have bleeding injuries? You know,

762
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 2: this is where you know this this statement that there's

763
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 2: no forensic evidence in this car, Well, that's right, that's absurd.

764
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 2: There's a huge amount of forensic evidence in the car.

765
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 2: We know somebody who's in that car. You know, we're

766
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 2: going to try to place somebody in that car, and

767
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 2: Kathy could have been killed in that car. So you know,

768
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 2: I need to know more.

769
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's continue on. We are very lucky because

770
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: we have probably in this time period, the most famous

771
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: medical examiner on Earth in this time period. It's Marilynd's

772
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: deputy chief medical examiner. And his name is doctor Werner Spitz. Yeah, okay,

773
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: he had already worked on JFK and Martin Luther King

774
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,479
Speaker 1: junior assassinations, so he is our medical examiner. He says

775
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: the cause of death is beating on the head, neck

776
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: and other parts of the body, but mainly on the head.

777
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 1: There is and I have a photo of this him

778
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: looking at the photo. That's the best I can do.

779
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: There is a perfectly round hole in the side of

780
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 1: sister Kathy's skull. Detective Bud, who's the detective on this case,

781
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: reports to the scene. He says it looks like it

782
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: could have been made by a ballpeen hammer, and he

783
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: said that a priest's ring could have also made such

784
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: a hole if she was hit with enough force. The

785
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 1: hole is about the size of a tennis ball. Doctor

786
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: Spitz just said, I don't know, it just would have

787
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 1: been a dense, heavy object. And like I said, I

788
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 1: have a photo. So as far as the autopsy, all

789
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: we know right now is that she's been hitting the

790
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 1: head and this photo, Paul is I think crazy. So

791
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: this is doctor Spitz looking at sister Kathy's skull.

792
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm of course I see doctor Spitz there

793
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: and he's holding up a black and white photo that

794
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 2: shows a skull that is completely devoid of flesh, at

795
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 2: least anything that I could discern as flesh. There is

796
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 2: some discoloration across the face of the skull as well

797
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: as the back, but the skull is turned to where

798
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 2: I can see the left side of the cranium as

799
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 2: well as the left side of the face. And this hole,

800
00:44:54,080 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 2: which appears that it's a significant depressed skull fracture, is irregular.

801
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 2: It's from top to bottom longer than side to side.

802
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 2: And just guestimating based on the you know, the typical

803
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 2: size of the human skull, this this hole appears to

804
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: be roughly three inches from top to bottom and maybe

805
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 2: one and a half inches side to side or smaller.

806
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 2: But this is a significant injury. Now, when I've had

807
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 2: cases involving let's say hammers, you know, where you have

808
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 2: let's say the face of the hammer that is being

809
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 2: used to inflict wounds two a person's head, you see

810
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 2: very classic, very circular depressed skull fractures, or if the

811
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 2: hammer faces you know, kind of when it hits in

812
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 2: a particular area. Almost get this lunar's semi lunar type

813
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 2: of injury, laceration and or depressed fracture. I wouldn't eliminate

814
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 2: something like a hammer maybe being used and inflicting, you know,

815
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 2: multiple blows at this location enough to where it's causing

816
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 2: this large hole. But this looks more akin to something

817
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 2: like an irregular massive weapon, like a rock, significant rock,

818
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 2: or other type of massive weapon. This is not in

819
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 2: any way, shape or form consistent with a ring somebody's

820
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 2: wearing at all. I understand how anybody would even think that,

821
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 2: you know. So what this informs me is is that, Okay,

822
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 2: Kathy has received a significant blow or multiple blows to

823
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 2: the left side of her head. This most certainly would

824
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 2: be fatal, and this would be this would result in

825
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 2: significant bleeding, you know, wherever she's located, at wherever the

826
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 2: her this occurred, whether it be in her vehicle or

827
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: at some sort of other death scene. You know, there's

828
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 2: a death scene out there, and her blood, impossible brain

829
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 2: matter would be present at that location.

830
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 1: Well that's all good to know. So as we move forward,

831
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: you know, we'll be able to see what other kind

832
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: of evidence we have, because I don't know how much

833
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 1: the autopsy is going to help at this point. So

834
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: Baltimore County surrounds Baltimore City. These are separate jurisdictions, and

835
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: Landown is in Baltimore County and that's where her body

836
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 1: is discovered. So the case is handed over from Baltimore

837
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: City Police to Baltimore County Police. So when that happens,

838
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 1: I'm sure this happens. Now. When that transfer happens, evidence

839
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: that is important never gets passed from one of these

840
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: jurisdictions to the other. And in the documentary series, a

841
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 1: representative from Baltimore County Police say that the city police

842
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: had that letter that Marilyn had received and it was

843
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 1: never given to them when sister Kathy's body was discovered

844
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: in Baltimore County. And so in the middle of an

845
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: interview with the keepers, the Baltimore County police officer realizes

846
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: that possibly no physical evidence from the period when sister

847
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: Cathy was missing was turned over to the county you know,

848
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: he just says, I don't even know if we got

849
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 1: any of it. The series was taped decades after this

850
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: case happened, So is that something that happens commonly, when

851
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: you're you know, having to pass on a case from

852
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: one jurisdiction to another. Does that surprise you that there

853
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 1: might be missing evidence when you're passing over from one

854
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:25,320
Speaker 1: to another.

855
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 2: No, Nor is it unusual for when you have, you know,

856
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 2: one agency is responding to a missing person's case, and

857
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 2: then now you have a body found in a different jurisdiction,

858
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 2: so now you have another agency who is handling the homicide.

859
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 2: Oftentimes you do not see this transfer of evidence. It

860
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 2: is not necessarily a standardized process. Agencies that are well

861
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 2: experienced and organized, of course, would try to consolidate that evidence,

862
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 2: and there would be tracking mechanisms of evidence flowing from

863
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: one agency to another where it's now integrated as part

864
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,280
Speaker 2: of the evidence list or the agency that is handling

865
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 2: the homicide. However, I've seen cases over and over again

866
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 2: where you don't see that type of transaction, So you

867
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 2: have to be aware that there's different repositories of evidence.

868
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:16,240
Speaker 2: Now for Baltimore PDE, who has a missing person's case

869
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 2: over the decades, I absolutely can see and have experienced

870
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 2: this where now somebody in the property room, a technician

871
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 2: in the property room, is now going through their routine

872
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 2: destruction of evidence in order to free up more space

873
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 2: for new evidence that is coming in every day, and

874
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 2: they just see a missing person's chart. It was just

875
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 2: a missing person's case, and they go, well, we don't

876
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 2: need to keep this anymore. You know, evidence from nineteen

877
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: sixty nine boom gone. Technically there needs to be documentation

878
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 2: of property destruction, but oftentimes with some agencies that aren't

879
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 2: very organized, there is no documentation. So this is just

880
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 2: so typical, you know, it's not surprising at all, Like

881
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,720
Speaker 2: this letter from Kathy Postmark November eighth, can't be found

882
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 2: that was collected under a missing person's case at Baltimore PD.

883
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 2: So now you know, in all likelihood, unless that evidence

884
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 2: is just tucked away in the property warehouse somewhere and

885
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 2: nobody's actually put forth great effort to find it, there's

886
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 2: a good chance it just got destroyed during routine processing

887
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 2: out of that property room.

888
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: Okay, So we don't know ultimately why this evidence doesn't

889
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 1: come out, but sounds like it's not something that is

890
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: totally shocking to you. So that's good to know. I mean,

891
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: that's good to have that kind of information moving forward. Essentially,

892
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 1: this case goes cold. You know, they reinterview Father Jerry.

893
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: Father Jerry says they were really putting high pressure on him,

894
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 1: and he says something really weird that at one point

895
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 1: when the police are questioning him, they throw something wrapped

896
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,280
Speaker 1: up in a newspaper on the table and he opens

897
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: it and he says it was one of Kathy's like

898
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 1: secontual parts. Now, of course the police are going to

899
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,840
Speaker 1: deny that. It seems weird. But if it happened, I

900
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 1: guess the consensus is they were trying to get him

901
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,760
Speaker 1: to talk to scare him. It doesn't work. He doesn't

902
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: look at it closely.

903
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 2: So something wrapped in a piece of newspaper is one

904
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 2: of Kathy's sexual parts? Are we talking about something has

905
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 2: been excized from her body?

906
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: That's what they're what he's saying. So the reason I

907
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 1: bring that up is I don't know if that's true

908
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: or not. Does that say anything about Father Jerry. It's weird.

909
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: I mean, that's weird.

910
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 2: Okay, do you have the autopsy? More from the autopsy

911
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 2: in terms of the dissection, what you know, what the

912
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:39,720
Speaker 2: condition of her body was. I mean, after two months,

913
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 2: it's going to be even though it's wintertime, there's going

914
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 2: to be a level of decomposition. But outside of the

915
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 2: disruption of her clothes, when you start saying, you know,

916
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 2: her sexual part is removed from her body, well know,

917
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:53,800
Speaker 2: is that the way her body was found. That's becoming

918
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 2: hugely significant to me.

919
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,439
Speaker 1: That is not something that Spitz has said was really true.

920
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,800
Speaker 1: She was buried after this happened, and he didn't say anything.

921
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 1: I think he said it in the Keepers, which happened

922
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: forty or fifty years after this, so there was no

923
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: way to prove it. I don't have the autopsy results.

924
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: There was never anything like that, noted from what I

925
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: saw that doctor Spitz said. So he's either making it

926
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: up or something.

927
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 2: Jerry's making it up.

928
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, to me, it doesn't make any sense. I mean

929
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: to me, it doesn't make any sense, especially because this

930
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: is something Spitz would have said, Oh yeah, there's a

931
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 1: removal of her vagina. But at the same time, my

932
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 1: point of bringing this up is it's weird if he

933
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 1: lies about this, that's weird. I mean, why would you

934
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,839
Speaker 1: even say something like that, you know, you.

935
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 2: Know, unless the investigators were doing some sort of ruse

936
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,839
Speaker 2: with Jerry in order to press him. Yeah, you know,

937
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 2: to make statements, but that's absurd. You know, if that

938
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 2: really happened, then that tells me a lot about the

939
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 2: law enforcement investigation and the quality of the individuals involved

940
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 2: with it. But I'm not sure I can put he

941
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:05,359
Speaker 2: wait on Jerry. He may have just been completely misinterpreted

942
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: what he was looking at.

943
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 1: Right, And I think that was the point, is that

944
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: if this did happen, I think people think it's the

945
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: police doing exactly what she said. They had a stake

946
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: or something in there instead, you know, and it was

947
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,919
Speaker 1: a ruse to put pressure on him. Yeah, or he's

948
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 1: making it up and it's a weird thing to make up. Regardless, Paul,

949
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 1: this goes cold for twenty five years, as does Joyce

950
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 1: Malecki's case. Both of these go cold. They have no suspects,

951
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 1: they don't have enough to charge, you know, father Jerry.

952
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 1: They can't figure anything else out, They don't have clues.

953
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 1: Any evidence that they had was lost in a transfer apparently,

954
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,919
Speaker 1: So this goes cold until nineteen ninety four. So we're

955
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 1: going from nineteen sixty nine to nineteen ninety four. There's

956
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 1: a former Archbishop Keyot student high school student who comes

957
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 1: forward with another student and this is where the horrific

958
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: abuse at the hands of several priests at this school

959
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: where she worked. Sister Kathy worked between the second in

960
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 1: the sixties and the seventies took place. This is a

961
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: woman who is known as Jane Doe, and she says this,

962
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: and this is what really blows up this whole investigation.

963
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:15,720
Speaker 1: So twenty five years later, she says that before Sister

964
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: Kathy's body was discovered, a priest who was abusing her,

965
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 1: one of the priests at the school had driven her

966
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: to where Sister Kathy's body was and showed it to her.

967
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 1: He said, the same thing is going to happen to

968
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: you if you tell anyone about the things I've done.

969
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 1: When this happens. In nineteen ninety four, the newspaper The

970
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 1: Baltimore Sun confirms this woman knew details about the crime

971
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 1: scene the dump that had not been known to the

972
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:47,319
Speaker 1: public before. So this is where I probably need your interpretation,

973
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:53,280
Speaker 1: because Jane Doe and another student have a lawsuit against

974
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 1: the school that had been dismissed because their testimony depended

975
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: on what is classified by the State of Maryland as

976
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 1: quote unquote recovered memories, which are inadmissible in this case.

977
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: Her memories. Jane Doe's memories did come back to her later,

978
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 1: not with the help of like an outside person or

979
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: hypnotist or anything, but that she said she just pushed

980
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 1: them all back. She disassociated for about twenty years. And

981
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 1: the other student, who was Jane Row that's who they

982
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 1: named her, doesn't really sound like she ever forgot it.

983
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,799
Speaker 1: She just didn't come forward. So they labeled these as

984
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 1: recovered memories, which are inadmissible. But it sounds like these

985
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: are just people who couldn't or wouldn't come forward until

986
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 1: twenty five years later. But the big headline here is

987
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 1: this woman says she was taken to sister Kathy's body

988
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 1: before it was discovered.

989
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, this is significant, and of course I'm

990
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 2: wanting to drill down to really get a feel for

991
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 2: the veracity of what Jane Doe is saying. You know,

992
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 2: could she take the investigators to that dump location or

993
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 2: if they take her into that general area, because she

994
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 2: may not, you know, as a kid, not you know

995
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 2: know how to drive to that location. But okay, take

996
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 2: her to that location and say, okay, where did this

997
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 2: guy show you sister Kathy's body? And then tell us

998
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 2: what you saw and does that really add up with

999
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 2: the actual facts of this dump location of Kathy's body.

1000
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:30,239
Speaker 2: I'm going to assume that Jane Doe is spot on

1001
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 2: with what she's remembering. Okay, of course, this idea of

1002
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 2: recovered memory not being admissible, well that's for trial purposes,

1003
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 2: but that is an investigative lead. You No, you could

1004
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 2: still use it as an investigative lead. So now it's like, well,

1005
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 2: who is this man who drove this Jane Doe to

1006
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:54,879
Speaker 2: where sister Kathy's body was found? Now, I'm you know.

1007
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: You're all in.

1008
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 2: It's a dog after a bone.

1009
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, there are a lot of details here before

1010
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,520
Speaker 1: before we get to what she says and who the

1011
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 1: man was, let me give you a little bit of background.

1012
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, so this is not very long ago,

1013
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:12,240
Speaker 1: Jane Doe reveals her real identity. She speaks on camera

1014
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 1: in the Netflix documentary series The Keepers. It is harrowing

1015
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: to listen to her and I find it very difficult.

1016
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 1: And I've told you a million times. These are the stories,

1017
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 1: particularly like teenage girls, young girls, sexual abuse, These are

1018
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: the stories. I can almost always take any kind of murder,

1019
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: but this is this sexual abuse is really difficult, so

1020
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 1: I made it through it, but it was. It's an

1021
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: absolutely astounding series, and her recounting of this is really difficult.

1022
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: So I'm not getting into the details. I will tell

1023
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 1: you this. Her name is Gene Hargaden Wayner, and she

1024
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 1: had actually first come forward to the church about the

1025
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 1: abuse in nineteen ninety two, but the story came out

1026
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 1: in the press two years later after she gets a

1027
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 1: run around for the church for two years. She was

1028
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:00,160
Speaker 1: a freshman, she went to confession and all of these

1029
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 1: people I'm about to name are important, and boy, I'm

1030
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 1: just going to try to skip through this. She goes

1031
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 1: to confession and she tells a priest who is a

1032
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 1: man named Father Neil Mangus who taught religion, that she

1033
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: had been sexually abused as a child. He starts sexually

1034
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 1: abusing her. She's a freshman in high school and after

1035
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 1: several months of this, another priest who works at the

1036
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: school is a guy named Father Joseph Maskel. He also

1037
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: abuses Gene. He is the school's chaplain. And this is

1038
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: the man we're going to be focusing on. He's young, relatively,

1039
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 1: he's been ordained for just four years before Sister Cathy died.

1040
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 1: He had been transferred to Archbishop Kio in nineteen sixty seven.

1041
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 1: So it's awful. I mean, Father Maskal brings other men

1042
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 1: to abuse her, including police officers. It sounds like at

1043
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 1: least one police officer. His brother, Mascal's brother, is a

1044
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 1: police officer with the Baltimore City Police Department. He is

1045
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 1: also Paul, the chaplain for the Baltimore More County Police,

1046
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: the Maryland National Guard, and the Air National Guard. He's

1047
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 1: friends with a lot of cops, including the first officer

1048
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 1: who responds when Kathy's body is found. They're all over

1049
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: the police here.

1050
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:17,479
Speaker 2: You just let me know how the archdiocese could tell

1051
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 2: the police department to back off if you have officers

1052
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 2: that are committing the same type of abuse on underaged kids. Now, yes,

1053
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 2: that is something that they could exploit in order to

1054
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 2: just bury this in the investigation.

1055
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Gene is feeling constantly threatened by Father Maskal,

1056
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 1: and on one occasion she says that he produces a

1057
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: handgun and threatens to kill her if she ever said anything.

1058
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 1: There's another kid, Well, now he's a man, but he

1059
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 1: was a kid at the time who had been an

1060
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 1: altar boy for father Maskal, who also said he saw

1061
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 1: him carrying a gun. That this priest was carrying a

1062
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: gun of co This is not the only young girl

1063
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 1: that this is happening to. Her story first comes to

1064
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 1: light at the beginning of a larger reckoning about abuse

1065
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 1: at this school, which we now know was part of

1066
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 1: a much, much bigger, systemic pattern of abuse within the

1067
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 1: Catholic Church. And it sounds like the abuse at Keo

1068
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 1: was rampant and unchecked. And according to a twenty twenty

1069
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: three report from the Maryland Attorney General's Office, Maskell already

1070
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 1: had a history of suspected child abuse by the time

1071
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: he was given the job of chaplain at Keo. The

1072
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 1: report says he was moved from two parishes in the

1073
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: sixties because of reports of troubling behavior with children. So

1074
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 1: Gene is not the only one she is talking about

1075
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 1: this now. And as I said, father Maskell is the

1076
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 1: one who takes her to the dump where sister Kathy

1077
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: is and says, if you say anything, this is what's

1078
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 1: going to happen to you. Scares her to death, so

1079
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 1: much so that she doesn't talk for almost twenty five years.

1080
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 1: I'll give you more details about this case because it

1081
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 1: is way not over. I mean, we are under We're

1082
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 1: so not over this case. But you're gonna have to

1083
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 1: wait a week. I told you it's big. I warned

1084
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 1: you You're gonna have to wait a week. We'll do

1085
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 1: part two next week.

1086
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what, there's a lot of moving parts

1087
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 2: in this case. I'm gonna have to I've got my notes.

1088
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 2: I'll have to review my notes before we move forward

1089
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:23,439
Speaker 2: during the next episode.

1090
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll get ready. I'll see you next week.

1091
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 2: All right, sounds good? Kay, thank you.

1092
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:35,120
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our.

1093
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 2: Sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com

1094
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

1095
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1096
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1097
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1098
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1099
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1100
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:59,040
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1101
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1102
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.

1103
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1104
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:08,920
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1105
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

1106
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold

1107
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 1: cases is also available now