1 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature Feature production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host 2 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology, 3 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: and today on the show, it's another Listener Questions episode. 4 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: On these episodes, you write to me. I read what 5 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: you wrote, and usually it's questions, and then I answer 6 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: those questions on the show. And it is a great 7 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: way for me to delve into topics that maybe I 8 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: don't talk about so much, or do some new research, 9 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: or you know, just get to know you the listener 10 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: and what you are interested in hearing. And so I'm 11 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: very excited for this week's listener question episode. There were 12 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: some really interesting questions that made me study. So make 13 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: me be a nerd, make me study. If you have 14 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: a question that you'd like to ask me, you can 15 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: write to me at Creature featurepot at gmail dot com. 16 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Without further ado, let's get right into your questions about 17 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: evolutionary biology. Is there any evidence of genetic memory and animals, 18 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: specifically in fish like bluegills. I have access to this 19 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: little beach on a lake and have swam there every 20 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: summer since I was a baby. I am probably the 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: person who swam there the most frequently in the last 22 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: thirty years or so, and all that time there have 23 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: always been very curious bluegills who swim with me. I've 24 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: noticed that when I get in the water, they kind 25 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: of flocked to me, but are more reserved with guests. 26 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: I must have swam with generations and generations of these fish, 27 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: and I was wondering if they could possibly remember me, 28 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: or is it more like with dogs? And that I'm 29 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: totally comfortable with them, so they're pretty comfortable with me. 30 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: Thanks for reading all this. You're awesome, Phyllis. Thank you, Phillis. 31 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: And then here is a related question. I think it 32 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: would be really cool to talk in Layman's terms about 33 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: epigenetics and evolution, since a lot of folks misunderstand and 34 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: the degree to which epigenetics drives long term evolutionary change. 35 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: And this is from Stellachou. So two excellent questions, and 36 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: they are very related. We are trying to get to 37 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: the bottom of two ideas. Could an organism pass a 38 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: memory or association to its offspring genetically instead of say, 39 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: teaching the offspring. And what is epigenetics and how does 40 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: it influence evolution? So a little background first, a bit 41 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: of history of our understanding of evolutionary biology. In the 42 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: early eighteen hundreds, a man named Jean Baptist Lamarque came 43 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: up with a theory of inherited characteristics. The theory was 44 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 1: that acquired traits by the parent could be passed on 45 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: to the offspring. The famous example is how giraffnecks purportedly 46 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: would work. An early giraffe would stretch its neck in 47 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,399 Speaker 1: an attempt to get some tasty leaves, lengthening and strengthening 48 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: its neck muscles, and then it would pass on a 49 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: longer neck to its offspring, and so on until we 50 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: have giraffes with very long necks. Similarly, Lamarck believed that 51 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: in humans, physically acquired traits could be passed on to children. 52 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: If you built up a lot of muscle, you could 53 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: pass on that strength directly to your child. When Mendelian 54 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: genetics came along, you know the guy with all the 55 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 1: pea plants, and those were more demonstrably proven as well 56 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: as Darwin's theory of evolution, Lamarchism was abandoned as being 57 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: junk science, and it was wrong essentially. But now scientists 58 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: think that there may be certain ways in which environment 59 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: can affect gene expression and how that might also impact 60 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: gamets and the genetic information passed on to offspring. So, 61 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: in terms of Phyllis's question about bluegill fish making a 62 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: positive association and passing that onto its offspring, well, I 63 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: have no idea about these blue gill fish specifically. It 64 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: could be that you are just a fish whisperer, like 65 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: after many years of swimming, you your body language is 66 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: soothing to these fish. Could be that they learn from 67 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: their parents, they're the previous generations seeing that they're comfortable 68 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: with you, and then the younger ones are more comfortable 69 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: with you. Or there is a small but not zero 70 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 1: chance that this could be a case of epigenetics. So 71 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: there was a study that found that mice seemed to 72 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: be able to pass on negative associations of a smell 73 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: to their offspring without potentially teaching them. So the study, 74 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: which was published in Nature in twenty thirteen, looked at 75 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: whether olfactory learning, so that's the learning that has to 76 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: do with smell, could be passed down in mice genetically. 77 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: So in the study, the mice were made to smell 78 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 1: a fruity smell called acetophenone and then were given a 79 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: mild electric shock to their foot because researchers like to 80 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: bully mice, so the mice learned to be fearful of 81 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: the smell and would show startle behavior to that specific 82 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: fruity smell and not to other smells and would startle, 83 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: whereas control mice who were not trained with this shock 84 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: method would not have that reaction. A previous study had 85 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: also found that the learned fear of smell changed the 86 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: neural structure of the mouse's nose. So the change in 87 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: the mouse's behavior in terms of learning to associate this 88 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: shock with this smell is so far not surprising, and 89 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: they also found these same structural changes in these mice 90 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: in terms of their nasal neural networks in their brains. 91 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: Again not too surprising, right, Like, you have some kind 92 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: of environmental impact onto you directly, and that can change you, 93 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: can change your brain structure, can even change the neurons 94 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: around your nose. That is sort of that's not too strange, 95 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: not too unexpected. The surprising result of the twenty thirteen 96 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: study was after they allowed these mice to mate, their offspring, 97 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: who had never been exposed to the scary smell, showed 98 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: a startle reflex to it, just like their parents had. 99 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: They also examined the new generation of mice's nose and 100 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: olfactory bulbs again that part that is the part of 101 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: the brain that processes smell, and they found that just 102 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: like the mice's parents, the new generation had more neural 103 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: structures and their noses and olfactory bulbs dedicated specifically to 104 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: detecting that scary fruity smell as compared to controls. So 105 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: the researchers wanted to make sure that these mice were 106 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: not somehow learning it from the other mice, so they 107 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: trained male mice to be fearful of that fruity smell. 108 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: Then they sent their sperm to an entirely different lab 109 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: to female mice, and they did in vitro fertilization, and 110 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: then those mice then gave birth to offspring who also 111 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: showed the same areas of the brain and nose with 112 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: those increased neural structures for that fruity smell. Unfortunately, it 113 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: seems they didn't also do a behavioral test on these 114 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: mice to see if they have the same startle reflex, 115 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: apparently because of some limitations on how that other lab 116 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: would do behavioral studies. Which I think is really disappointing, 117 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: especially for such a bizarre and groundbreaking study. I think 118 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: that I would like to see Judge Katie would like 119 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: to see this replicated and also see the behavioral reaction 120 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: of the mice replicated in the in vitro fertilization. Regardless, 121 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: though the results are really really interesting, the fact that 122 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: you still saw these changes in the neural structures of 123 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: the brain and nose is really really interesting. So does 124 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: this experiment show that animals can inherit memory. Not really, 125 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: It doesn't prove that exactly. So what it shows is 126 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: that environmental factors that can change the structure of a 127 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: mouse's olfactory bulb and nasal neural structures seem to be 128 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: able to pass something on that also changes the structure 129 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: of their offspring's olfactory bulb and nasal neural structures. So, 130 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: sort of condensed into more Layman's terms, a change to 131 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: the parent mouse in terms of its response to a 132 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: smell seems to be reflected in its offspring structurally, in 133 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: its brain and in its nose. And this study, I 134 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: think is I mean, it is really interesting and I 135 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: would like to see many more studies along the same 136 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: lines because I think that is really necessary to see 137 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: exactly what's going on. You could define this as a 138 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 1: sort of memory, right, Like it could be that they 139 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: inherit some fear of the smell, but it could just 140 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: be that they inherit a sensitivity to the smell. It 141 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: may have not too much to do with fear. So 142 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: it's hard to know exactly what they are cognitively or 143 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: instinctively inheriting. But I think it is still really really 144 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: a surprising and interesting results. So I'm sure a lot 145 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: of you as I also question how can you pass 146 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: on a trait you acquired from your environment to your offspring. 147 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: So this is where we get into epigenetics, which seems 148 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: really weird and a little bit scary, but it's not 149 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: so scary, but it is still pretty weird. So epigenetics 150 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: looks at how cell functions can be changed without a 151 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: mutation or change in the DNA sequence itself. So the 152 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: DNA sequence has not mutated or been altered like in 153 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: the actual sequence of the amino acids, but there has 154 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: been a change that creates a difference in cell functions. 155 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: So how can you have a change in self function 156 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: without an alteration of the DNA One way is gene expression, 157 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: which is the way in which DNA gets copied into RNA, 158 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 1: which can either be used directly. That RNA can be 159 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,839 Speaker 1: used directly or can further be used as instructions to 160 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: build another protein that will then be used for self function. 161 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: So you can, without fundamentally changing the DNA structure, change 162 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: how the DNA is converted to RNA, and how that 163 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 1: RNA is converted into proteins, and that will change the 164 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: function of the cell. So there are three main ways 165 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: in which this is accomplished. There is DNA methylation, histone modification, 166 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: and RNA mediated processes. That sounds really scary and complicated, 167 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: don't worry. That also sounded really scary and complicated to 168 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: me when I was studying up on this, But in 169 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: very simple terms, DNA methylation is when a methyl group 170 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: molecule attaches itself to sites on the DNA strand and 171 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: that affects how the DNA is transcribed into RNA. It's 172 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: like you have a cookbook and you have some instructions 173 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: in the cookbook of how to bake a cake, and 174 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: you don't like tear anything out. You don't change the 175 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: cookbook itself, but you paste on top of it some 176 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: kind of new instructions or something that will affect how 177 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: you read it. Or you put like a little bit 178 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: of wide out over part of the recipe and now 179 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: it changes how you read the recipe, even though underneath 180 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: the white out the recipe remains the same. So the 181 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: other method in which genetics works is histone modification. So 182 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: histones are the spools that DNA winds around, so it's 183 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: kind of like a spool of thread to keep the 184 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: DNA sort of from getting knotted and tangled. It is 185 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: wound around a histone, and if the histone is modified, 186 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: it can also change how the DNA strand is transcribed. 187 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: And apparently this is actually a key factor in the 188 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: brain when it comes to addiction. Like this, the modification 189 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: to the histones can affect how your cells function, especially 190 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: in your neural cells when it comes to addiction. So 191 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: the last one is RNA mediated processes. In extremely overly 192 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: simplified terms, this involves modifications or markers on RNA that 193 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: changes how they create proteins, and when it changes how 194 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: they create proteins or how the RNA functions, that will 195 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: also change how these cell functions. So to pass down 196 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: an epigenetic change, the epigenetic tag or marker either the 197 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: methyl group attached to the DNA the histone modification or 198 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: marker on the RNA, must somehow also be copied and 199 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: passed on in reproductive cells. So transgenerational epigenetic inheritance, which 200 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: is the inheritance of some kind of epigenetic change from 201 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: parent to offspring to another offspring, so like to grand 202 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: offspring and great grand offspring, is largely understood to exist, 203 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: even though it's not well understood exactly how these mechanisms work, 204 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: and it's still a question as to how influential epigenetics 205 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: is on behavior and also how it affects long term 206 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: evolutionary changes, which gets into listener Stella Chow's question about 207 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: explaining epigenetics and long term evolutionary changes. So much of 208 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: evolutionary change is driven by DNA mutations, So these are 209 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: random alterations to the DNA that happens as reproductive cells 210 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: are formed and reassembled into offspring, and then you have 211 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: selective pressures that may mean certain mutation get passed on 212 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: and others don't. So the mutations themselves are random, but 213 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: the process of natural selection is not at all random 214 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: it is, it's very much driven by selective pressures, and 215 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: that's how from random mutations you can get very useful structures. 216 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: So the role that epigenetics has to play in terms 217 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: of long term evolution is a very debated topic among 218 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: evolutionary biologists. So many of lutionary biologists are very skeptical 219 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: as to how long and inherited epigenetic trait could last. 220 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: Maybe it sticks around for a few generations and then 221 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: kind of wears off, But there's still the possibility that 222 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: epigenetics has some influence on long term evolution, But it 223 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: doesn't seem like there's been any definitive research proving such 224 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: an influence. So until there's a larger body of research 225 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: on the topic, you know, I don't think that researchers 226 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: really know whether epigenetics plays much of a role in 227 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: long term evolutionary changes, you know, And I certainly don't 228 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: feel like enough of an expert to state my opinion 229 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: on it. I just think that there hasn't really been 230 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: evidence that is convincing that epigenetics has played a big 231 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: role in long term evolution. But I don't think it's 232 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: impossible that it has. That it has played some role 233 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: in evolution. In fact, there is some there worried that 234 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: epigenetics in general, the ability to have some kind of 235 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: epigenetic change, is a result of evolution, which is to 236 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: allow for a brief change in organisms in a response 237 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: to environment, one that's not necessarily permanent, because like, if 238 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: the environment is rapidly fluctuating, you know, you want to 239 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: kind of be able to rapidly change with the environment 240 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: instead of having, you know, this longer process of getting 241 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: having to rely on random mutations in order to adapt 242 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: to changes. So I know that saying like, we don't 243 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: know exactly is kind of an annoying cop out of 244 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: an answer, but I think it's also really important to 245 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: remember how new a lot of sciences and how many 246 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: questions about evolutionary biology still exist and need answers, And 247 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: sometimes researchers are going to get it wrong. Sometimes they're 248 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: going to get it right. Sometimes they're going to think 249 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: that they got it completely wrong, and then later on 250 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: they're like, actually, part of this may have been sort 251 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: of right. It's just the whole process. It's a living science. 252 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: So onto the next listener question. Dear Katie Golden, thanks 253 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: always for your superb show. Thank you so much. Being 254 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: an old I've lived through decades of human recitations about 255 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: why non human animals aren't as advanced, animate, or worthy 256 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: as we are, and decades of these distinctions being found 257 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: do not actually exist tool use being uniquely human for instance, 258 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: that is not true. My take on that is that 259 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: humans as a species clearly have hierarchical anxieties, and ere 260 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: we are at the elusive possessing a theory of mind. 261 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: My related query is about the distinction between instinctive and 262 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: rationally decided behavior. Is this just something people like saying 263 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: or are there any effect of definitions? And how are 264 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: habitual learned behaviors taken into account if they are. Thanks 265 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: in advance for reading and thinking about this from Mary Anne. Also, 266 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: I got a related question post on Twitter Great minds 267 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: think alike you guys. So here's the similar question. How 268 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: much do we know about the role genetics plays in 269 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: passing on instincts, especially those instincts with complex urges that 270 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: had no way of being taught. For example, animals going 271 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: to a specific place to reproduce. And this is from radia. 272 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 1: So these are also summert related to previous questions on epigenetics, 273 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: but I think that scientists do have a much better 274 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 1: understanding of the genetics of instincts. So I think the 275 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: main way to define instinct versus rational behavior is that 276 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: instinct is something you are preprogrammed with and can start 277 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: using right out of the box, right out of the 278 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: egg or woomb crying, for instance, is an instinctive response. 279 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: You don't have to learn how to cry. It just 280 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: you're ready to go with that preloaded. A startle response 281 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: to something sudden, or to a snake or spider is 282 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 1: potentially an instinct, like you don't have to be trained 283 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: necessarily to have a startle reflex to a spider. In 284 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: baby sea turtles, as soon as they hatch, they can 285 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: start to crawl towards the light of the moon reflected 286 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: in the water, and this is an instinct right out 287 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: of the egg. They haven't been taught anything. They just 288 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 1: know they got to go towards the light reflected in 289 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: the water. Or they get eaten by a bird or something, 290 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: but they try to get to that water as fast 291 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: as possible. They start zooming as soon as they can 292 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 1: right out of the egg. That's instinct. Rational behavior is 293 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: responding to a situation and instead of having a pre 294 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: prepared response having to come up with one through cognitive 295 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: ps sesses your instinct maybe to flinch at a snake, 296 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: and so that may be an instinctive response, but what 297 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: you actually do in that situation either picking up a 298 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: rock and bonking the snake on the head, which I 299 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: do not recommend, be nice to snakes or avoid them 300 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: if they're venomous, or you could look at the color 301 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: of the snake to see if you really should be 302 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: afraid of it, using reasoning and cognitive processes. So either 303 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: of these responses, right, like a violent response to the 304 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: snake or a more thoughtful response, These are actually both 305 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: quote unquote rational behavior. These are you're using some kind 306 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: of reasoning about what you should do about the snakes. 307 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: So you have an initial instinctive reaction of like, oh, 308 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: a snake, and then you start to reason like, well, 309 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: I will I will smash the snake, or I will 310 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: look at the snake and hey, maybe it's just a 311 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: harmless snake and I don't have to worry about it. 312 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: Either of those are behaviors that have arisen from cognitive processes, 313 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: and this is not a uniquely human behavior. I want 314 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: to emphasize many animals use cognitive processes to think their 315 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: way through a response. In fact, I would say most 316 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: animals have that ability, have that ability to use some 317 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 1: form of cognition to come up with a response that 318 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: the most animals do not behave purely on instinct, and 319 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: they can either reason through something or they can learn 320 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: behaviors from their parents or peers. Sometimes I would say 321 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: instinct interacts with learning or rational responses in interesting ways. 322 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 1: So songbirds, for instance, are born with a built in 323 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: song learning structure in their brains and will instinctively pay 324 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: attention to songs, but they're also dynamically learning how to 325 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 1: sing that song. So you have this initial instinct that 326 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: kind of grows into more complex learned cognitive processes. So 327 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: you know, instinct and rationality. While I think that there 328 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: is a distinctive definition for both, that doesn't mean that 329 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: they don't kind of interweave with each other when you 330 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: actually look at how these behaviors happen in real animals. 331 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: So instincts are passed down genetically, so or as we 332 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: discussed earlier, perhaps they could be passed down epigenetically, like 333 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: those mice that have that increased sensitivity to that fruity smell. 334 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: But in general, something like the sea turtle who like 335 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: goes towards the moon, it is passed down genetically. This 336 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: kind of pre programming that comes in the brain. I know, 337 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: it's kind of like spooky, this idea that a brain 338 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: can come preloaded with a set of instructions of how 339 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: this organism should behave, But that's absolutely the case. It 340 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: is like the way that babies know to suckle when 341 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 1: presented with a nipple. You don't really have to teach 342 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: them that. I mean, you can't. I guess that in 343 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: some cases, like you can kind of like help teach 344 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: a baby how to like latch on or something, but 345 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: generally speaking, the baby, once it is given a certain 346 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: set of stimuli, it will start to do this suckling behavior, 347 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: just like a baby calf or something knows to suckle 348 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: on the utters. Because you can't, you need to have 349 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: some behaviors that are preprogrammed and ready to go so 350 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: that newborn baby, that fresh baby can survive and can 351 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: communicate that it's hungry and that it can actually act 352 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: on its hunger. And that's important because otherwise, if you 353 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 1: have to wait too long to learn or acquire some 354 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: kind of behavior, then you're not going to survive because 355 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: you need you need to eat, You need to eat 356 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: fresh out of the box. So we are going to 357 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: take a quick break and then when we get back, 358 00:23:55,320 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: we're going to answer some more listen our questions. So 359 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 1: here's the listener question about my dog Cookie. Dear Katie, 360 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: thanks so much for all your work, love both your shows. 361 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: Thank you. I was wondering if you could address some 362 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: questions on your next mailbag show. One what is Cookie's 363 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: greatest fear? Two? What is Cookie's highest aspiration? Three? What 364 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: is Cookie's greatest achievement? For what is Cookie's cutest habit? 365 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: I know these are deeply personal, but the listeners simply 366 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: need to know. Thanks again, quote unquote Rusty shackle Ford, 367 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 1: thank you for the question. Quote Rusty shackle Ford. Here 368 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: are all the Cookie facts that you need to know. One. 369 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 1: Cookie's greatest fear is being ignored. Two Cookie's highest aspiration 370 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: is to bark at every single pigeon in the entire city. 371 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: Three Cookie's greatest achievement is the time she found an 372 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: entire chicken leg and managed to eat it, bone and 373 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: all before we could get it from her, And she 374 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 1: spent days in smug satisfaction while we worried and sifted 375 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: through her poop to make sure she passed the bones safely. 376 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: Four Cookie's cutest it is that she likes to play 377 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 1: hide and seek with her toys and will stand up 378 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: on her hide legs to get a better visual on 379 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: her surroundings to find her toys. So those are all 380 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: the cookie facts that you need to know. Relate a 381 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: dog question from another listener. I was looking after Hamish. 382 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: He mishes a dog by the way this weekend. When 383 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: he smells other dogs pee, what does he know? Can 384 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: he tell if they're male or female, or how big 385 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: they are, or if they're sick? Could he even have 386 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: some idea what they look like? He definitely knows something, 387 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: and he's not telling gary D. Thanks gary D. So 388 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: dogs have exquisitely sensitive noses and can smell all sorts 389 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: of things that are beyond our human noses. That said, 390 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: they may not know what they're smelling exactly. So a 391 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,239 Speaker 1: dog can be trained to detect cancer cells, but it 392 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: doesn't mean the dog understands that those are cancer cells 393 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 1: or even a sign of illness. They have to be 394 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: trained to kind of use that as a diagnostic material. 395 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: They have to go to dog medical school. What I'm saying, so, 396 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: what do dogs determine by sniffing the peepee of other dogs? Well, 397 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: they can determine the sex, the maturity, and reproductive status 398 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: of the other dog, and all those things have been 399 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: I think pretty much confirmed by research. But they can 400 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: also potentially understand what their own brand of urine is. 401 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: And this has been used in studies to try to 402 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: see if dogs have a sense of self. So often 403 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: we will use the mirror study to see if an 404 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 1: animal has a sense of self. So you show an 405 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: animal it's reflections, then you modify something about the animal, 406 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: like you at a red dot on its face or something. 407 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: And then if the animal looks in the mirror and 408 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 1: scratches at its own face, it seems to be that 409 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: the animal is making the connection between itself and the 410 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 1: image in the mirror, which one could interpret as having 411 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: a sense of self or at least understanding that itself 412 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: exists and it can use the mirror to guide itself 413 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: to change an aspect about itself. But dogs fail at 414 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 1: the mirror test mostly because they have no interest in mirrors, 415 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: and so we could say, like, well, dogs don't have 416 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: a sense of self. They fail the mirror test. But 417 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: I think this is a limited perspective because mirrors make 418 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: sense for people like humans, because we have we're very 419 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: very visual animals. But other animals don't necessarily only rely 420 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,719 Speaker 1: on their site, or don't primarily rely on their site 421 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: to experience the world, and dogs really rely on their 422 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 1: sense of smell. They love smells. They do have a 423 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: sense of sight, and they do have a great sense 424 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: of hearing, but smells to them, it's just like a buffet, like. 425 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: They are really really good at detecting smells. And for them, 426 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: like the variety of smells that they can detect, in 427 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: the extent to which they can detect them is probably 428 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 1: more precise and more colorful than say, just their vision. 429 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: And so because they love smells, especially urine smells, researchers wondered, like, hey, 430 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 1: maybe instead of trying to get a dog to look 431 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: in a mirror like it's a little person, maybe we 432 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: should try to kind of meet the dog halfway and 433 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: see if the dog can do a version of the 434 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: mirror test but with its urine with smells instead of sight. 435 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: So can a dog understand what its own urine smell 436 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: is and react and surprise if its urine is somehow modified. 437 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: So in a study done on dogs smelling urine, the 438 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: researchers found that the dogs spend more time smelling their 439 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: own urine when it was modified compared to just their 440 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: own urine, and they showed more interest in their urine 441 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: mixed with the modifier smell than just the isolated modifier smell. 442 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: So it wasn't just that they were responding to novelty. 443 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: They seemed especially interested in their own urine when it 444 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: was mixed with this modifier. Oh, do dogs pass the 445 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: pe mirror test? Maybe I personally would like to see 446 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: a comparison of whether dogs react differently to their modified 447 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: urine versus the urine of another dog and a urine 448 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: of another dog that's been modified. So what I'm saying 449 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: is we need more smelly pee tests for dogs, And 450 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: I think the dogs would also be thrilled with this, 451 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: because I bet these dogs love these studies. They love 452 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: smelling peepee, and if they get to go to a 453 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: study and smell pepe, I'm sure they would enjoy that. 454 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: By the way, most dog behavioral studies these days are 455 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: using pet dogs, so they just go into the lab 456 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: for a day. It's not generally dogs that are like 457 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: held captive in the lab for their lives. So that's 458 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: that's nice. I like it when studies are ethical with 459 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: respect to animals, especially when we're trying to learn about 460 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: animal behavior. I think it's it's nice to be respectful 461 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: towards the animal. Doesn't always happen, but I think it 462 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: is happening much more frequently now that we are really 463 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: taking into account the animal welfare when it comes to 464 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: behavioral studies. So yeah, more PPE tests for dogs. They 465 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: love smelling p. I know my dog loves smelling P. 466 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: I try to litter do it. It's gross, but you 467 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: know what, that's how she enjoys life. So I'm not 468 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: going to shamer I'm not gonna judge her. Here we 469 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: are another listener question. Hey, Katie, I've always been in 470 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: us versus then person when it came to parasitic organisms, 471 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: be it humans or otherwise. That's not to say I 472 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: don't find them fascinating, and you've covered quite a few. 473 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: What I've long wondered, though, is what's the scientific opinion 474 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: on whether or not they're an important part of the ecosystem. 475 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: Are they part of the balance that keeps some others 476 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: in check, or could we remove them all and be 477 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: better off for it. Of course, I assume it's not 478 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: all that black and white, and my guests would be 479 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: that those that have been here for a while evolutionarily speaking, 480 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: couldn't just be quickly removed without consequences. But then also 481 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: there might be some newer ones that are more detrimental overall. 482 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: But these are just guesses. Any thoughts, PK, great question. 483 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: You know. I love parasites, and partially it's because they're 484 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: really fascinating, but they are also an important part of 485 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: our world, in our ecosystem, even if they are detrimental 486 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: to a specific host, so obviously everything is a balance. 487 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: I would say that it's not so much about the 488 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: newness of a parasite evolutionarily speaking, but it could be 489 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: like if a parasite is introduced to an ecosystem, right, 490 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: like an invasive parasite, that could be quite bad for 491 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: the ecosystem. But in general, parasites can keep things in balance. 492 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: They may keep the population of a certain host species 493 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: in balance, and if that host species were too successful, 494 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: then they might take too many resources or prey upon 495 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: too many other species, so they cannot help maintain a 496 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: balance in an eco system. They may also help drive biodiversity, 497 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: forcing adaptations and animals. Another important thing for parasites is 498 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: that they are a food source for many species, and 499 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: they can also compel animals to adapt pro social behavior 500 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: like cooperation cooperative grooming from any animal from fish to apes. 501 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: So like part of ape cooperation, some of the ways 502 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: that apes bond, primates bond is through grooming parasites. And 503 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: who knows this could have shaped like the pro social 504 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: nature of primates. Maybe we humans have parasites in part 505 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: to think for our evolution as being very pro social. 506 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: So in short, parasites are awesome and important, but maybe 507 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: not so fun if you individually have a parasite. And 508 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: just because they're important for the environment doesn't mean you 509 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: should feel compelled to keep a tape worm inside of you. 510 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: It's okay to go to a doctor and get rid 511 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: of a parasite. I'm not saying you personally have to 512 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: be the host of many parasites, even though I am so. 513 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: Before we go, I would like to go over something 514 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: very important. It's the mystery animal sound game called Guess 515 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: who Squawking every week I play Mystery Animal Sound in you, 516 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: the listener, try to guess who is making a sound. 517 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: It could be any animal in the wild. And if 518 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: you think you know who is squawking, you can write 519 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: to me at Creature featurepot at gmail dot com. Again, 520 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: you also have a question, feel free to write it 521 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: to me. And by the way, there are no dumb questions. 522 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: You may think your questions like, I don't know, this 523 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: might be too basic, this might be too silly. Nope, 524 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: I'm gonna say no. Sometimes the most obvious questions are 525 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: the ones that make me kind of scratch my head 526 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: and go like, oh, I gotta hit the books. I 527 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: have to study up on them. So hit me with 528 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: all those questions. And now, Auntie the mister analysts sound game. 529 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: Last week's hint was this you wouldn't want this around 530 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: your neck? So can you guess who is making that sound? Well, 531 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: congratulations to the three fastest guess theer's Laura W, Bryce V, 532 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: and Auntie B who all guessed albatross, and special congratulations 533 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,280 Speaker 1: to Chris B, who not only guessed albatross, but guessed 534 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: the correct species, the black footed albatross. So the albatross 535 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 1: is a sea bird with an incredible wingspan. The black 536 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: footed albatross is a sea bird found in the North 537 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: Pacific which has an InCred credible wingspan of around six 538 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: to seven feet or one hundred ninety to two hundred 539 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: and twenty centimeters. And they are this lovely gray color 540 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: with sort of white ombre on their face and indeed 541 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,919 Speaker 1: black feet and the sounds you just heard are probably 542 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: either fighting over food or kind of courting or both. Honestly, 543 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,720 Speaker 1: kind of sounded like both to me. That you got 544 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: a little bit of squabbles over food and you got 545 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: a little bit of romance going on. And speaking of romance, 546 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: they will form long term pair bonds that typically last 547 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:49,359 Speaker 1: for their entire life. So these are faithful boyds. And 548 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: then they both take part in the care of their 549 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: chick and they will actually take turns incubating the eggs. 550 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: We love to see it. We love to see see 551 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: successful co parenting in birds. Onto this week's mister Ann 552 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: will sound the hint this foxy little filler loves bananas. 553 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 1: Bonus points if you can guess why it's making the sound. 554 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: The answer it's very cute. Well, thank you guys so 555 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: much for listening. Thank you so much for your fantastic questions. 556 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: I love them every time. They often send me on 557 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:46,919 Speaker 1: rabbit holes of studying and I truly appreciate the thoughtfulness. 558 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: And if you have a question again, write to me 559 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: at Creature feature Pod at gmail dot com and I 560 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: will answer them to the best of my abilities. Thank 561 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 1: you so much for listening, and thanks to the Space 562 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: Classics were their super awesome song Exolumina. Creature features a 563 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like the one you 564 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: just heard, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or Hey 565 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: guess what where have you listened to your favorite shows? 566 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: Seed x Wednesday