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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: Heads Up dug, Heads Up, Heads Up Douge.

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Speaker 3: A crowd outside the Milwaukee courthouse protested the trial of

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Speaker 3: County Circuit Court Judge Hannadugan on two federal charges for

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Speaker 3: allegedly obstructing an official Department of Homeland Security removal proceeding

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Speaker 3: by helping a migrant evade arrest. It's a first of

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Speaker 3: its kind case testing the limits for a judge interfering

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Speaker 3: in the Trump administration's efforts to deport migrants. Here's Nick Ramos,

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Speaker 3: executive director of Wisconsin Democracy Campaign.

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Speaker 1: We are optimistic because we believed in the Constitution, We

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Speaker 1: believe in the power of solidarity through working people.

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Speaker 2: But we are deeply concerned. We see the chilling effect

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Speaker 2: that occurs when a federal administration attempts to consolidate power

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Speaker 2: and move off impunity.

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Speaker 3: It's unusual, to say the least, for the Department of

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Speaker 3: Justice to prosecute a sitting state judge, But then this

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Speaker 3: same Department of Justice sued the entire bench of federal

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Speaker 3: judges in Maryland. My guest is Leon Fresco, a partner

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Speaker 3: at Honden Knight. He was the former head of the

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Speaker 3: Office of Immigration Litigation during the Obama administration. Leon tell

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Speaker 3: us about the prosecution's case against Judge Dugan Well.

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Speaker 2: The judges on trial for basically impeding and obstructing Ice

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Speaker 2: in ICE's ability to arrest a person that they were

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Speaker 2: looking for at that time who was going through criminal

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Speaker 2: proceedings in the Milwaukee County Court. So this whole trial

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Speaker 2: so far has been trying to determine that what the

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Speaker 2: judge did in terms of letting this individual out through

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Speaker 2: the back door, the jury dort that all of that

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Speaker 2: was irregular, that none of it had ever been done

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Speaker 2: by and that because of that, the judge's intent was

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Speaker 2: clearly to impede Ice from arresting people in the court. Now,

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Speaker 2: the problem is, because there's a trial, it's unclear if

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Speaker 2: the judge will be able to take advantage of a

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Speaker 2: lot of the legal defenses about control over their courtroom

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Speaker 2: and ability to manage their proceedings and Ice interfering with

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Speaker 2: all that. This seems to just now be a trial

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Speaker 2: about whether the judge actually had the intent to block

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Speaker 2: Ice from arresting this individual. And so we'll have to

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Speaker 2: see if basically what the judge is going to try

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Speaker 2: to do is a jur nullification play because the facts

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Speaker 2: and the law are pretty clear here where the facts

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Speaker 2: show that the judge acted in a way the judge

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Speaker 2: had never acted before, and that the judge's intent was

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Speaker 2: to have the individual floor as Ruiz not arrested by ice.

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Speaker 2: So this may just end up being a pure jur

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Speaker 2: nullification claim.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So the prosecution presented evidence that the judge had

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Speaker 3: told a court reporter, I'll do it, I'll get the heat,

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Speaker 3: and also audio tapes of what happened in the courtroom

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Speaker 3: that day, and you could hear the judge talking to

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Speaker 3: the court staff suggesting the defendant could quote go down

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Speaker 3: the stairs away from the agents.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. If the facts of this case are really what's

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Speaker 2: a trial here and you have sort of what I

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Speaker 2: would call robot jurors who are not trying to look

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Speaker 2: at the whole issue from a three hundred and sixty

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Speaker 2: degree perspective, they would probably find that the judge would

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Speaker 2: be guilty here because the evidence appears to be overwhelming

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Speaker 2: that the judge knew what she was doing was illegal

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Speaker 2: and did it anyway, did not have this individual Eduardo

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Speaker 2: Flores Ruiz arrested by ice. He's subsequently been deported already.

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Speaker 2: But the question is, is the judge, like I said,

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Speaker 2: trying to rely on juror nullification. And we've seen this

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Speaker 2: in other contexts, in other prosecutions with the sign went

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Speaker 2: guy here in DC and then with you know, potentially

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Speaker 2: Jim call me or Latsia James. You know you're seeing

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Speaker 2: juries not wanting to make these convictions, and so maybe

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Speaker 2: this is what the judge is hoping for.

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Speaker 3: Here the fact pattern becomes a little better for the

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Speaker 3: judge because the defense attorney, instead of taking his client

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Speaker 3: out by the stairs, went into the hallway, which was

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Speaker 3: less than twelve feet from the main door to the

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Speaker 3: judges courtroom. And so the judges lawyer said in the

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Speaker 3: opening statements, quote eleven feet ten inches, that's what she's

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Speaker 3: on trial for. So is that sort of a way

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Speaker 3: to give the jury and out correct?

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Speaker 2: That's what they're trying to do, is they're trying to

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Speaker 2: give the jury an ability to say, look, this is

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Speaker 2: all so insignificant. Why are you going to throw someone

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Speaker 2: in prison over this? And you know the subtext which

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Speaker 2: obviously they're not going to be allowed to say, and

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Speaker 2: the court is prison is a place where you keep

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Speaker 2: criminals who are going to endanger you, and so you

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Speaker 2: really want to send this person to prison because there's

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Speaker 2: not any danger to the community from having this judge

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Speaker 2: outside of prison, and so that's what they're leaning for.

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Speaker 2: They're definitely leaning for the journalification angle, and we're just

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Speaker 2: gonna have to wait and see if that's what happens.

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Speaker 3: So these ICE agents are stationed outside the courtroom, sometimes

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Speaker 3: in the courtrooms, I mean, what's wrong with the judge

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Speaker 3: saying go out this way? I don't think these ICE

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Speaker 3: agents should be here.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the question is this, If the ICE

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Speaker 2: agents are in a place where a warrant is required

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Speaker 2: and they don't have a warrant, then there's absolutely no

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Speaker 2: problem with the judge directing ICE not to arrest people,

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Speaker 2: or saying that ICE is in the wrong location or

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Speaker 2: ICE needs to leave, or helping someone to maintain their

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Speaker 2: rights in a situation where ICE is acting against their

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Speaker 2: rights because ICE doesn't have a warrant. But the problem

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Speaker 2: is here, ICE was trying to detain this individual in

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Speaker 2: a public area where it they didn't need a warrant,

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Speaker 2: and because of that, the judge knew This is the

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Speaker 2: problem with the recordings here. The judge certainly knew that

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Speaker 2: the judge was impeding, and that the judge didn't actually

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Speaker 2: have a great legal argument for why the judge was

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Speaker 2: going to act in the manner to allow this individual

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Speaker 2: to essentially escape the courthouse without Ice. It would have

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Speaker 2: been one thing for the judge to confront Ice and

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Speaker 2: say you're acting illegally and I'm using my authority as

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Speaker 2: the judge to order you to leave the courthouse, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: But the judge didn't do it that way. Perhaps the judge,

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Speaker 2: had she thought it through, might have done it that

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Speaker 2: way is to issue an order and order Ice to

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Speaker 2: go leave and say they're acting illegally, and then they

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Speaker 2: would have been a fight about who had jurisdiction over

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Speaker 2: that courthouse. But that's not what happened here. The judge

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Speaker 2: basically indicates through her speech that she knows she's acting

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Speaker 2: unlawfully and does it anyway.

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Speaker 3: Of course, the defendant does not have to testify the

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Speaker 3: moment right not to you. But is this a case

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Speaker 3: where the jury might say she's a judge, shouldn't we

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Speaker 3: hear from her?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think absolutely this is the kind of case

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Speaker 2: where she doesn't testify, the jury will say, what the

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Speaker 2: heck I mean, she must have had some explanation for

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Speaker 2: doing what she did. We'd want to hear it. But

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Speaker 2: of course they are not allowed to draw that in

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Speaker 2: for into it's just something that human beings do again

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Speaker 2: because they're not AI robots, but they're not allowed to

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Speaker 2: say it anywhere. They're not allowed to actually base a

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Speaker 2: jury decision on the fact that she didn't testify. But sure,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that I want to say, this is a judge.

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Speaker 2: The judge should be able to explain why she did

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Speaker 2: what she did and why her intent wasn't to evade

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Speaker 2: the ICE agents. So all of that will accrue against

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Speaker 2: her if she doesn't end up testifying. But she just

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Speaker 2: may really be banking on the fact that, look, at

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Speaker 2: the end of the day, I'm in a big city,

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Speaker 2: and there's enough people in a big city who will

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Speaker 2: not want to prosecute a judge and put a judge

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Speaker 2: prison over something like this that I can get one

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Speaker 2: or two holdouts and that'll be the end of the story.

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Speaker 2: And I think, if I was a gambling man, that

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Speaker 2: that's actually pretty likely, even if the facts and the

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Speaker 2: law may not necessarily be on her side. I do

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Speaker 2: think it seems pretty likely to me that you'll get

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Speaker 2: one or two hold out, but just won't want to

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Speaker 2: put this judge in jail.

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Speaker 3: Do you think it makes a difference that the migrant here,

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Speaker 3: Eduardo Flores Ruiz was facing domestic battery charges.

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Speaker 2: I think it doesn't help her, There's no doubt about it.

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Speaker 2: And the other thing that doesn't help is there's nothing

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Speaker 2: that they can sort of put in there that mitigates

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Speaker 2: this individual or says why this individual was sympathetic in

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Speaker 2: any way, shape or form, because none of that evidence

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Speaker 2: would be deemed relevant to the criminal trial issue. So

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Speaker 2: it's definitely not helpful. But to the extent that unfortunately

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Speaker 2: you see this. I mean, the best example I've ever

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Speaker 2: seen of this was the Johnny Depp trial, where the

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Speaker 2: lawyers after lunch would respond to whatever was being made

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Speaker 2: on social media because they would think that the jurors

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Speaker 2: were looking at social media and they wanted to confront

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Speaker 2: whatever was being made. Jurors are these days tending to

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Speaker 2: take matters into their own hands, even if they're not

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Speaker 2: supposed to, and so we'll have to see what they

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Speaker 2: end up finding about this judge and everything else.

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Speaker 3: So let's also talk about immigration judges. Eight immigration judges

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Speaker 3: in New York were recently terminated in one day. A

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Speaker 3: San Francisco judge was fired in the middle of a

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Speaker 3: complicated asylum hearing. Overall, about one hundred judges out of

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Speaker 3: seven hundred have been let go, and many of the

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Speaker 3: cases involved judges with high rates of asylum approvals or

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Speaker 3: even backgrounds representing migrants. Is this legal for them to

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Speaker 3: fire the judges based on that?

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Speaker 2: Well, the court so far have been very deferential to

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Speaker 2: the Department of Justice in terms of their ability to

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Speaker 2: fire these immigration judges. And in fact, there's been this

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Speaker 2: case law about if the president and the Attorney General

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Speaker 2: can't fire someone who's an inferior judge like this, then

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Speaker 2: that judge isn't constitutionally appointed in the first place. So

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Speaker 2: it appears in terms of if you were to take

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Speaker 2: that case law along its logical conclusion, it appears that

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Speaker 2: the firing of these judges is permitted for pretty much

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Speaker 2: any reason, unless it's some discriminatory reason or something else

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Speaker 2: like that. But if it's an ideological thing that that

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Speaker 2: would be permitted. The problem that it's creating is it's

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Speaker 2: taking a lot of experience away from the immigration bench.

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Speaker 2: None of these judges had a one hundred percent approval rate.

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Speaker 2: Many of them had let's say fifty percent approval rating,

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Speaker 2: forty percent, sixty percent, which may have been higher than

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Speaker 2: their other colleagues on the court, but weren't one hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: And the reason why I bring that up is, well,

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Speaker 2: those other forty percent that they were deporting on a

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Speaker 2: particular day now aren't being deported. There's no hearings for

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Speaker 2: these people, and those people will have hearing scheduled one

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Speaker 2: year or two years from now, and sure they may

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Speaker 2: be in front of a new judge that may have

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Speaker 2: a ninety percent refusal rate or a ninety five percent

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Speaker 2: refusal rate, but it may still be a year or

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Speaker 2: two from now. So those are tough sort of choices

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Speaker 2: that the Trump administration is trying to make about short

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Speaker 2: term versus long term. But I mean, you look at

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Speaker 2: their social media advertising and they're saying, please come join

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Speaker 2: the Immigration Court and be a quote unquote deportation judge,

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Speaker 2: which is not their job. Their job is to look

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Speaker 2: for the law and the facts and decide if deportation

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Speaker 2: is the correct remedy or if giving asylum or cancelation

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Speaker 2: of removal or something else is the correct remedy. And

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Speaker 2: so the fact that they're advertising those positions as deportation judges,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if there's going to be a long

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Speaker 2: term negative connotation or inference that come from that, where

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Speaker 2: those decisions that are issued by those judges may not

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Speaker 2: have any force of law, or if an appellate court

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Speaker 2: ends up saying that that judge was predisposed to grant

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Speaker 2: deportation because that's why they were joining the court. So

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Speaker 2: I don't know why that line of social media advertising

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Speaker 2: is there, but nevertheless that's clearly what they're trying to do.

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Speaker 2: There are some members of Congress that are trying to

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Speaker 2: put in some basic standards for these future hires of

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Speaker 2: immigration judges, whether it be a number of years of

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Speaker 2: experience practicing immigration law or a number of years of

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Speaker 2: experience on the bench or anything else. But we'll have

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Speaker 2: to wait and see if any of that can actually

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Speaker 2: get into an appropriations bill. But at the moment, a

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Speaker 2: lot of these hearings, they're basically being done with judges

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Speaker 2: that are not necessarily conversed in immigration law, and that

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Speaker 2: creates its own problems because if they make errors, then

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Speaker 2: you waste years on appeal, and then the bounces back

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Speaker 2: and you've accomplished nothing anyway. So all of those things

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Speaker 2: have to be weighed and considered together.

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Speaker 3: Coming up next, Why the case against Kilmore Abrigo Garcia

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Speaker 3: is starting all over again? This is Bloomberg. The Homeland

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Speaker 3: Security Department has leaned into a recruiting pitch that calls

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Speaker 3: for candidates to bring down the hammer on criminal illegal

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Speaker 3: aliens and quote, defend your communities, your culture, your very

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Speaker 3: way of life. I've been talking to immigration law expertly

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Speaker 3: on Fresco of Holland and Knight. I saw the numbers

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Speaker 3: that only about thirty six percent of asylum cases were

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Speaker 3: successful during Biden's last full year in office. That seems

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Speaker 3: pretty low.

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Speaker 2: Well, the problem is the large majority of people coming

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Speaker 2: into the United States under the Biden administration, we're just

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Speaker 2: trying to articulate on asylum case in order to get

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Speaker 2: in the country. But they never had the expectation that

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Speaker 2: they would actually ever have to show up in court

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Speaker 2: any day and asked for asylum. A lot of these

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Speaker 2: asylum cases were very weak at the end of the

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Speaker 2: day because they were either in countries, for instance, if

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Speaker 2: you were coming from El Salvador, or El Salvador has

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Speaker 2: actually fixed a lot of its gang violence problems, and

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Speaker 2: so it's very hard now to get asylum from a

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Speaker 2: place like El Salvador. Or if you were coming from

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Speaker 2: countries such as Venezuela. You know, you would theoretically easy. Okay,

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Speaker 2: you have this maduro and so you might be a

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Speaker 2: political dissident, but at the end of the day, you

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Speaker 2: had to prove what were you doing in Venezuela that

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Speaker 2: was noteworthy and famous that you would actually be persecuted

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Speaker 2: as opposed to just coming for economic opportunity. So a

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Speaker 2: lot of Venezuelan cases were being denied and all across

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Speaker 2: the world. Basically people were getting into the United States

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Speaker 2: with threshold cases, but when they were actually subject to

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Speaker 2: scrutiny and evidence, nobody had actually done anything in these

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Speaker 2: countries that had led them to be persecuted, and so

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Speaker 2: that's why you saw the numbers so low. It's not

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Speaker 2: that the adjudications were low because there was an emphasis

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Speaker 2: on making these cases denied. It's that a lot of

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Speaker 2: the cases shouldn't have been filed in the first place,

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Speaker 2: but were filed as a means to remain in the

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Speaker 2: United States.

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Speaker 3: So, speaking of immigration, judges, Abrego Garcia, he was willing

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Speaker 3: to go to Costa Rica. Why wasn't the government willing

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Speaker 3: to send him here? Why they wanted to send him

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Speaker 3: to someplace where he didn't want to go.

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Speaker 2: This is a very complicated issue because this is why

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Speaker 2: kill Maar Abrego Garcia is still in the country, which

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Speaker 2: is there's a lot of machinations going on right now

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Speaker 2: about what stage in his case. Kill Maar Abrego Garcia

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Speaker 2: is in, because they just recently found out that they

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Speaker 2: had never actually ordered him deported, so he never actually

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Speaker 2: had a deportation order, and so he was deported without

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Speaker 2: a deportation order, so no one knew what the reason

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Speaker 2: was for his detention, and so they had to issue

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Speaker 2: what was called the new protunk removal order, which means

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Speaker 2: that it was back dated eleven years and now they're

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Speaker 2: basically starting his whole asylum case again from the beginning

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Speaker 2: from scratch. And all of this can be circumvented by

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Speaker 2: the government of the United States sending Abrego Garcia to

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Speaker 2: Costa Rica, and they just won't do it because they

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Speaker 2: want to say that if you try to circumvent the

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Speaker 2: United States laws in some manner contrary to what the

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Speaker 2: US government wants. Then the US government will make the

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Speaker 2: determination of where you go. And so they don't want

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Speaker 2: Kimara Abrego Garcia going to Costa Rica. And this is

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Speaker 2: one of those cases where I don't really understand it

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Speaker 2: from the standpoint of if your view is that he's

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Speaker 2: a threat to the American public, or that he's going

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Speaker 2: to be a drain of taxpayer resources or something, then

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Speaker 2: sending him to Costa Rica solves that problem. But nevertheless,

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Speaker 2: we are where we are now.

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Speaker 3: The Trump administration is in increase the number of countries

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Speaker 3: whose citizens face a full or partial travel ban on

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Speaker 3: entry to the US from nineteen to thirty nine. And

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Speaker 3: of the twenty countries facing new travel restrictions, sixteen are

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Speaker 3: in Africa, and all thirty nine have majority non white populations,

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Speaker 3: nearly half our Muslim majority countries. I mean, is there

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Speaker 3: any logical reason?

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Speaker 2: Well, the reasons that they cite in the proclamation, So

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Speaker 2: let's go step by step. The reasons that they cite

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Speaker 2: in the proclamation are ones related to an insufficient vetting

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Speaker 2: that those countries have where they cannot give us enough

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Speaker 2: information that we can decide if someone is safe or not.

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Speaker 2: Plus they cite that each of those countries has high

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Speaker 2: visa refusal rate. Now there are a couple of Caribbean

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Speaker 2: countries in there, which is Antiguee, Barbuda and Dominica, where

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Speaker 2: what they say about those countries is, look, we've been

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Speaker 2: trying to tell you to knock it off in terms

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Speaker 2: of selling passports from those countries, because what happened is

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Speaker 2: people who were banned from other countries would get a

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Speaker 2: passport from Dominica or from Antigua and they would say, hey, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm a member now of that country. I'm not a

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Speaker 2: passport holder of you know, Syria or Iran or something.

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Speaker 2: And they were circumventing US law through those passports. So

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Speaker 2: now they've had to say is if you're not going

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Speaker 2: to stop selling citizenship by investing in these countries, then

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Speaker 2: we're going to ban you too. So that those are

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Speaker 2: the two Caribbean countries that were banned. So they were

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Speaker 2: not banned for visa overstay or for lack of vetting,

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Speaker 2: but all the other countries were banned for visa overstate

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Speaker 2: rates and lack of vetting. But there are countries and

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Speaker 2: other places in the world that have hired visa overstate

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Speaker 2: rates and have other vetting issues. And in the end,

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Speaker 2: what you realize is there are some countries on these

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Speaker 2: lists that the United States want something from, and they're

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Speaker 2: using this to try to get those changes in whether

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Speaker 2: it be that they accept people that the United States

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Speaker 2: is trying to deport, or that they become third country

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Speaker 2: places that the United States can deport people, or whether

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Speaker 2: there's some other diplomatic agreement that they want to reach

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Speaker 2: with some of these countries. You do see some of

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Speaker 2: that here, but again most of this is related to

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Speaker 2: visa overstate rates, lack of vetting, and then again the

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Speaker 2: idea that the President has that the individuals coming from

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Speaker 2: these places are not, in his view, on balance, helping

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Speaker 2: the United States and its interests, as opposed to what

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Speaker 2: he thinks they're doing, which is harming the United States

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Speaker 2: and their interests. I would not. The most fascinating thing

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Speaker 2: of this is that some of the countries that were

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Speaker 2: banned actually are in the World Cup. Senegal is in

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Speaker 2: the World Cup, Cope var is in the World Cup,

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Speaker 2: and I wonder what's going to happen there because all

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Speaker 2: the visitor visas have been banned. So are those fans

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Speaker 2: not going to be allowed to visit the World Cup

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Speaker 2: even if they're very wealthy and you know, prestigious people

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Speaker 2: in those countries. So they do have an exception for

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Speaker 2: the athletes obviously and the coaches, but they don't have

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Speaker 2: any exception for the fans. So I do wonder what's

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Speaker 2: going to happen with some of those individuals.

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Speaker 3: And what about the requirement that tourists from forty two

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Speaker 3: countries have to submit social media data?

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Speaker 2: Well, this is going to end up being rolled out

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Speaker 2: universally and it's part of Now what the issue is

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Speaker 2: is this, we have something called the Visa Waiver Program.

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Speaker 2: It's known as ESTA, but it's really the Visa Waiver Program.

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Speaker 2: Esta's the name of the database. It's a travel authorization

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Speaker 2: system that checks people to determine whether they actually need

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Speaker 2: to go in and actually ask for a visa, or

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Speaker 2: whether their background is clean enough that they can come in.

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Speaker 2: And so what's happened is the government is trying to

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Speaker 2: basically harmonize the current visa application system, which is if

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Speaker 2: you apply for a visa anywhere around the world, in

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Speaker 2: any country for any reason, you have to put in

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Speaker 2: your social media background in order to get a visa.

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Speaker 2: So now it's trying to say, is even for the

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Speaker 2: people who are coming from Norway or Sweden or Denmark

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Speaker 2: or wherever, they're going to have to put in their

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Speaker 2: social media even though they're not applying for a visa,

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Speaker 2: just for the electronic authorization to enter the United States.

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Speaker 2: And they're obviously investing a lot of money on a

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Speaker 2: lot of these software vetting programs and AI programs to

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Speaker 2: try to determine if they can find something of note

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Speaker 2: to reject people. But the more onerous that they start

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Speaker 2: making these applications, you know, if it ends up being

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Speaker 2: something that you have to fill out for two hours,

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Speaker 2: which is essentially if all of the things that they're

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Speaker 2: proposing to implement, all of the familials schedule and work

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Speaker 2: schedule and education schedule and social media schedule and everything

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Speaker 2: else you're supposed to write in there, if all of

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Speaker 2: that ends up getting implemented, it might take you an

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Speaker 2: hour or two, depending on if the system is functional

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Speaker 2: or not. To have to fill out those applications, you

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Speaker 2: may decide, you know, what, visiting the US isn't worth

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Speaker 2: it for me anymore. I will go somewhere else. Why

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Speaker 2: do I need to deal with all of this. Also,

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Speaker 2: in addition, it's I think useful to note that it's

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Speaker 2: different to say, if somebody's gonna come here and live here, well,

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Speaker 2: maybe you want to be careful of what kind of

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Speaker 2: person you're bringing in. But at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: I certainly am critical of countries when I visit them

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Speaker 2: around the world. I say, look, this thing doesn't make

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Speaker 2: any sense. What you're doing. This thing makes sense. We

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Speaker 2: all are, we're human beings. It would be very strange

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Speaker 2: if someone of wealth or of means or whatever, who

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Speaker 2: just wants to take a trip and vacation for a

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Speaker 2: weekend in the US suddenly can't come in because they've

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Speaker 2: said something that is a normal criticism of the United

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Speaker 2: States that you wouldn't care about because in the end,

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Speaker 2: they're not actually posing a danger to the United States.

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Speaker 2: That's the kind of thing that the very strange. I mean,

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Speaker 2: our government currently has a policy that says we're very

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Speaker 2: angry at Europe for patrolling it social media and saying

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Speaker 2: that people don't have free speech in their social media,

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Speaker 2: and then at the same time we're potentially doing the

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Speaker 2: same thing here where if a European criticizes the US,

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Speaker 2: we won't let them in. And so those are things

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Speaker 2: I think we need to balance, and we need to

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Speaker 2: do it the right way because travel is a very

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Speaker 2: delicate ecosystem, and if people decide they're not going to

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Speaker 2: travel to the United States, you start seeing things like

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Speaker 2: you're seeing in Las Vegas, where nobody's showing up and

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Speaker 2: the unemployment rate is skyrocketing and people don't want to

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Speaker 2: travel there.

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Speaker 3: It's great to have you as always, Leon. That's Leon

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Speaker 3: Fresco of Honda Night. Coming up next. How strip searches

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Speaker 3: in schools traumatize kids over minor offenses. This is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 3: School should be a place where children feel safe. So

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Speaker 3: you may find it surprising, perhaps even shocking, that public

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Speaker 3: schools are strip searching children as young as five for

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Speaker 3: allegations like pocketing a few dollars in change or carrying

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Speaker 3: a vapepen. Studies have found that strip searches can cause

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Speaker 3: long term psychological harm in children. The American Bar Association

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Speaker 3: says that strip searching a minor is almost never appropriate

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Speaker 3: and can result in long term negative consequences such as anxiety, depression,

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Speaker 3: and phobias. Bloomberg Law investigation found that across the country,

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Speaker 3: children and teenagers say their being strip searched at school

437
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 3: by administrators and staff, often for vatepens and minor offenses.

438
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 3: At least forty federal civil rights lawsuits since twenty seventeen

439
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 3: claimed children were strip searched at school. Joining me is

440
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 3: Bloomberg Law Senior reporter Emily Siegel, who was part of

441
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 3: the Bloomberg investigation. Emily tell us about Kristin Yeckley and

442
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 3: hert year old daughter. Sure So, we.

443
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 1: Interviewed Kristin Yekli. She lives in Indiana and her daughter

444
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: was in trouble at school for possessing a vape. She

445
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 1: got a call from the principal telling them that her

446
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: daughter was in trouble. She was pretty surprised by it

447
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 1: because her daughter doesn't really get into trouble that often.

448
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: And when her daughter got home, she said that she

449
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: had been searched, strip searched by a nurse in order

450
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 1: to see if she had the vape honor, which she

451
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: did not have. So Kristin was very upset, obviously by

452
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: what happened, and she filed a lawsuit. So what we

453
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: found after that is that you know, she wasn't really

454
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 1: alone in this circumstances. Is something that's happened all over

455
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: the country.

456
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 3: And most of the time it's not weapons that they're

457
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 3: looking for.

458
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: We reviewed federal lawsuits for this, and in some of

459
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: them they don't say what they were searching for. But

460
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 1: we only found four instances where they were searching for

461
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: a weapon, and they never found one. In those instances.

462
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: Most of the searches were for things like vapes or

463
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: drugs or even stolen money. And we also had many

464
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 1: instances where they were searching for signs of abuse on

465
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: the children as well.

466
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 3: And when we're talking about strip searches, some of the

467
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 3: descriptions of what went on, it's just hard to believe

468
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 3: that people who are entrusted with children's care would subject

469
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,959
Speaker 3: them to these outrageous searches, sometimes in front of members

470
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 3: of the opposite sex.

471
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, we found many instances, I think it was fifteen

472
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: where they were searched by someone or in the presence

473
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: of someone of the opposite gender. We created sort of

474
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: our definition of strip searching, which was removal of clothing

475
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 1: that would expose parts of the body that are not

476
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: normally exposed. But we did have instances where children were

477
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: required to remove all of their clothing, including their underwear,

478
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: or were searched and had to remove most of their clothing.

479
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: There were just a variety of different circumstances.

480
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 3: Hio and Missouri lawsuits claim that school nurses perform vaginal

481
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 3: exams on a five year old and an elementary school

482
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 3: or they were searching for signs of abuse. Are there

483
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 3: different rules when they're searching for signs of abuse?

484
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 1: There is one state that does allow strip searching if

485
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: it's for searching for abuse, but we spoke to experts

486
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: and that's not typically what you're supposed to do. School

487
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: employees are mandatory reporters, so if they see any signs

488
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: of abuse, they are supposed to report it to child

489
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: protective services. They don't need to do an investigation themselves.

490
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: And for a child that might be going through some

491
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: sort of abuse, it could be on top of that

492
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: traumatizing to be strip searched. So it's not always the

493
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: recommended approach for a school employee to be doing that.

494
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: They don't need to be doing that.

495
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 3: And in your article you talk about the long term

496
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 3: effects of a strip search on a thirteen year old

497
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 3: girl named Stephanie, her mother, said that she watched her

498
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 3: daughter from being a happy, singing fairy child to one

499
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 3: who threw up most days before going to school. Tell

500
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 3: us what Stephanie said about the effects even today, years later.

501
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 1: She basically said that for her at that young age,

502
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: being forced to undress in front of her male principle,

503
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: I think was a big part of the trauma. It

504
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: was that made her very self conscious. She felt sort

505
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: of grossed down and disgusted with herself having to do that.

506
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: This is a male teacher that she had to do

507
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: this in front of she was young, and then after that,

508
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: you know, there was a lot of anxiety around being

509
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 1: around him in school as well.

510
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 3: Kids are so traumatized they don't even go back to school.

511
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes not all, but sometimes. I mean, I think it

512
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: depends on the circumstance. But we did find that in

513
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: some of the cases they ended up transferring, and according

514
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: to studies some that have been done, that also is

515
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: a common thing. They'll drop out or they will transfer

516
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: as a result of the search. Yeah.

517
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 3: The American Bar Association stance is that strip searching a

518
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 3: mind is almost never appropriate. So the Supreme Court has

519
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 3: ruled about when schools can conduct searches of students.

520
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: So the Fourth Amendment says, you know, just in general,

521
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: that you can't conduct unreasonable search and seizure. That was

522
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: tested in twice in the Supreme Court. The first time

523
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: was not regarding a strip search. It was in nineteen

524
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: eighty five, I believe. Basically it also ruled that there

525
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: are times when it is reasonable to search a student.

526
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: And then in two thousand and nine a school strip

527
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: searching case came to the Supreme Court, and that was

528
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: when a young girl was strip searched at school because

529
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: she had prescription ibewprofen on her, And they basically ended

530
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: up ruling that the search of her was not reasonable.

531
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: But they also ruled that the teachers involved were entitled

532
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: to qualified immunity. So that is sort of a rule

533
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: that's often applied to you know, police officers that protects

534
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: them from liability in these like civil case situation.

535
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 3: As I mentioned before, some of the circumstances are so egregious.

536
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 3: I mean, you say strip search, but then what follows

537
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 3: is so egregious? Are these cases often settled?

538
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,719
Speaker 1: So in the ones that we could see, because you know,

539
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: settlements are not always revealed in the court docket we

540
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: found I think around eleven cases had settled. Some could

541
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: have settled, but it wasn't clear from the docket, and

542
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: we couldn't confirm that some of the cases they sided

543
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: with the defendants. There were those as well, so it's

544
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: kind of a mixed bag. These are harder cases to

545
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: work up because there's not necessarily a physical injury, so

546
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: I think that does make it more difficult. And there

547
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: is some case law on this, and these were just

548
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: in federal court. We haven't looked at state court or

549
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: anything like that, so it's possible there are more cases

550
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 1: like this.

551
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 3: Some states have laws that limit strip searching or prevent it.

552
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: I think we had about ten states that have laws

553
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: that prohibit strip searching or or limit them. So in

554
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: Wisconstant school employees cannot do strip searches, but law enforcement

555
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: are able to of miners. In another state it was

556
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: allowed that they could strip search for signs of abuse,

557
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: But in a lot of states there's no acknowledgment of this.

558
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: Many states have search and feisure policies looking into when

559
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: a student locker can be searched, when their backpack can

560
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: be searched, but they don't really address strip searches directly.

561
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 3: Are there any groups that are you know, working to

562
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 3: try to stop these strip searches.

563
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: We had about six cases in Indiana, so we talked

564
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: to some state senators and state representatives there who get

565
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: express interest in introducing some sort of law. We have

566
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: reached out to other states as well, but we haven't

567
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: heard anything yet. But there are groups that the American

568
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: Bar Associations put together their own recommended policy on stript

569
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: searches of miners and their hope was that that would

570
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: be adopted in state law as well, and that hasn't

571
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: happened yet, but we did highlight some of the work

572
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: that they did and how they came to that policy.

573
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 3: From your reporting, thirteen of the cases involved students with disabilities.

574
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 3: Were the facts similar in those? Are there reasons why

575
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 3: they're targeting students with disabilities?

576
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: They were all sort of similar circumstances. We just found

577
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: some instances where students had you know, had some sort

578
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: of disability and so it was just another layer to

579
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: what was going on. There might have been more confusion

580
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: for the student as well. A couple of the students

581
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: had autism or they were you know, had some sort

582
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: of unspecified disabilities as well. So it was something that

583
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,239
Speaker 1: we noticed as we were going through it, and it

584
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: was hard to figure out why that was. But there

585
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: were a fair number of cases that have that.

586
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 3: Are they searching their lockers first and you know, basics

587
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 3: before they actually do the strip search.

588
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: Sometimes they are. That's sort of what we spoke about

589
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,719
Speaker 1: with lawyer from the Juvenile Law Center, is that they

590
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: should be taking other steps first to sort of talk

591
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: to the student figure out what's going on. Also depends

592
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: on the severity and seriousness of what they're searching for.

593
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: In many of the instances we looked at, there or

594
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: were not calling to parents ahead of time to let

595
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: them know that they were going to be searching the student.

596
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: In a couple of instances, the student would ask to

597
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: call their parent and they were denied the ability to

598
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: do that. So there are some steps that probably could

599
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: have been in place where they were doing other sort

600
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: of working their way up to strip searches, but it's

601
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: sort of hard to say from a lawsuits. Sometimes they

602
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: searched the locker first and didn't find anything, and then

603
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: they would conduct the scriptures.

604
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 3: The results you found are really shocking, as I said before,

605
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 3: and it's so important to expose what's going on so

606
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 3: perhaps other children won't have to suffer through these strip searches.

607
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Emily. That's Bloomberg Law Senior Reporter Emily Siegel,

608
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 3: and that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show.

609
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 3: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on

610
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 3: our Bloomberg Law podcast. You can find them on Apple

611
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 3: pod podcast, Spotify, and at www dot bloomberg dot com

612
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 3: slash podcast Slash Law, And remember to tune into The

613
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 3: Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time.

614
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 3: I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg