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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the whitetail woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile

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Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light

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Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on

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Speaker 2: the show, we are discussing the increasingly urgent need to

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Speaker 2: start harvesting more dos and we'll be talking through strategies

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Speaker 2: to specifically target and hunt analyst deer. All right, welcome

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Speaker 2: to the wire ton podcast, brought to you by First

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Speaker 2: Light and their Camel for Conservation Initiative. If you're not familiar,

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Speaker 2: the Camel for Conservation Initiative means that every sale of

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Speaker 2: First Light spector Camo gear, a portion of every one

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Speaker 2: of those sales goes back to the National Deer Association

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Speaker 2: to help them with their mission to do good things

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Speaker 2: for deer and deer hunters. And speaking of the National

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Speaker 2: Deer Association, today's guest for our conversation today is the

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Speaker 2: President and CEO of the National Deer Association, mister Nick Penzoto,

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Speaker 2: and our topic today is doze. We're talking antler list

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Speaker 2: deer and we're talking about this topic for a couple

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Speaker 2: of reasons. Number one, kind of selfishly, this is the

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Speaker 2: time of year, when we're talking December, when I really

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Speaker 2: start getting extra excited about hunting for dos. I've already

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Speaker 2: taken two this year, but I'm about to get really

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Speaker 2: really serious about it just in the next couple of days.

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Speaker 2: For whatever reason, it seems to be as that season's ending,

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Speaker 2: getting towards that last third or last quarter, some of

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Speaker 2: that stresses off. You've had all your big trips, the

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Speaker 2: ruts in the rearview mirror, and now I like to

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Speaker 2: get out there with my kids, get out there with

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Speaker 2: friends and family, take out more new hunters and top

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Speaker 2: off the freezer, get out there for specific dough hunts.

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Speaker 2: And it's a lot of fun. And it's a very

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Speaker 2: good time to be out there getting it done because

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Speaker 2: does are still out and about. They're hitting the food sources,

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Speaker 2: so it's a great time to do this kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: But that's not the only reason why we're having this

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Speaker 2: conversation here today. It's also because I think it's a

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Speaker 2: conversation that's needed. As we're wrapping up the year. There's

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Speaker 2: still some work to be done. I just got not

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Speaker 2: just about two months ago and got an email from

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Speaker 2: our dear specialist here in the state of Michigan that

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Speaker 2: went out to all the hunters, I believe across the

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Speaker 2: state of Michigan, letting us know that we are in

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Speaker 2: dire straits, that we have a situation with our deer

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Speaker 2: population in the state of Michigan and our ability to

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Speaker 2: manage it because we have not been harvesting enough doughs.

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Speaker 2: I think the number is since the early two thousands,

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Speaker 2: our dough harvest, our antlas harvest has gone down thirty percent.

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Speaker 2: And this kind of trend is not unique to Michigan.

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Speaker 2: The National Deer Association published their Deer Report earlier this

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Speaker 2: year and then again came out this fall with a

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Speaker 2: pretty strongly worded article kind of raising the red flag

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Speaker 2: on this the fact that antlas harvests continue to go

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Speaker 2: down across many different states, across many different regions of

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Speaker 2: the country. We are simply not managing and balancing the

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Speaker 2: population the way that we need to if we want

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Speaker 2: healthy deer populations and if we want to continue to

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Speaker 2: do our job as stewards and managers of this resource.

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Speaker 2: And so that's why we've got Nick joining me here

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Speaker 2: on the show here shortly to better explain what all

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Speaker 2: that means, to better kind of outline the trends we're seeing,

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Speaker 2: to talk through why this stuff's important, Why we as

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Speaker 2: deer hunters need to be thinking about this, Why dough

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Speaker 2: harvest can influence our buck hunting opportunities, How all of

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Speaker 2: this impacts the habitat, how this might impact the future

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Speaker 2: of disease, impacts on deer populations, a bunch of stuff

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Speaker 2: like that. So I want to cover the why and

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Speaker 2: understand why are we getting these emails, why are we

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Speaker 2: seeing these things in the reports, why should we care?

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Speaker 2: And then number two, let's talk about how to do it,

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Speaker 2: because I'm guilty of this. Here on the podcast, we

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Speaker 2: talk a whole lot about how to kill mature bucks,

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Speaker 2: how to target a specific buck, how to kill your

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Speaker 2: first buck, how to do all this stuff bucks, bucks, bucks.

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Speaker 2: We don't do a good enough job talking about dos.

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Speaker 2: And there are some unique things when it comes to

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Speaker 2: targeting does, when it comes to going out there on

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Speaker 2: a hunt, specifically just trying to hunt analysts deer. So

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Speaker 2: that's what the second half of the show is going

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Speaker 2: to be about. If you are listening to this in

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Speaker 2: September October, November, December, whatever it is. We are going

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Speaker 2: to talk about how you can get out there and

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Speaker 2: fill your analyst tags with different ideas, tactics, strategies, how

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Speaker 2: to fill the freezer with an analyst tag. We'll get

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Speaker 2: into all of that here today. So appreciate you listening.

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Speaker 2: Why don't we just get to my guest, mister Nick

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Speaker 2: Penzoto and talk about some does all right here with me?

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Speaker 2: Now we've got a returning guest, my friend Nick Pennzota. Nick,

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Speaker 2: thanks for being here.

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Speaker 3: Always a pleasure. Mark, good to be back. And I

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Speaker 3: listened to the show. I don't think I've ever missed

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Speaker 3: an episode, and the only ones I don't listen to

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Speaker 3: are the ones I'm on. So maybe I'll make it

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Speaker 3: a point to do that this time.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to listen to yourself. I don't like listening

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Speaker 2: to myself either, Nick, So I don't blame you, gotcha.

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Speaker 2: I do appreciate you, though, tuning into the show. Thanks

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Speaker 2: for thanks for keeping me in business. Yeah, I'm also

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Speaker 2: appreciative of the fact that you were willing to jump

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Speaker 2: on here with little notice. But I had the idea

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Speaker 2: for this podcast kind of last minute, and it stemmed

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Speaker 2: from some conversations I've had over the last couple of

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Speaker 2: days with some of my friends at Meeta Her. We

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Speaker 2: were actually on tour here recently doing some live podcasts

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Speaker 2: and been talking a bunch about the dough situation in

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Speaker 2: Michigan and elsewhere. And as those conversations were going on

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Speaker 2: with me and my friends, I'm also getting text messages

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Speaker 2: from some of my buddies from your Field of Fork

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Speaker 2: program that you guys do with the NBA. We've got

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Speaker 2: a Field of Fork angeless hunt coming up this weekend,

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Speaker 2: and a couple guys who I mentored years ago in

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Speaker 2: that two years ago now who are going to come

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Speaker 2: and hunt with me before that too. So I've got

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Speaker 2: all these dough hunts coming up, and my sons are

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Speaker 2: asking me when can we get out there and start

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Speaker 2: hunting doughs. And I'm having this conversation about the dough

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Speaker 2: population in Michigan. All these things have got all these

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Speaker 2: conversations and thoughts going around my head, and it got

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Speaker 2: me thinking about an email that I received earlier this year,

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Speaker 2: and I teased this in the introduction to the podcast,

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Speaker 2: but I got this email that most of the hunters

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Speaker 2: in Michigan or all the hunters in Michigan got that

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Speaker 2: they're on the use letter list from our deer lead

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Speaker 2: in the state of Michigan, basically pleading with hunters in

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Speaker 2: Michigan to start getting serious about does And you guys

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Speaker 2: actually came out with similar language this spring when you

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Speaker 2: guys came out with your twenty twenty three Deer Report.

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Speaker 2: And then again there was an article you published in

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Speaker 2: i think late September kind of raising a red flag

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Speaker 2: on this issue too. So that's what I want to

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Speaker 2: talk with you about, Nick, is is first off, why

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Speaker 2: is this something that you guys are starting to scream

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Speaker 2: from the rooftops about the fact that we need to

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Speaker 2: get a little bit more serious about the antalyst hunting

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Speaker 2: that we're doing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Sure, And so it's interesting while you were seeing

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Speaker 3: all that, we were having internal conversations because as we

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Speaker 3: start to review the Deer Report like we do every year,

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Speaker 3: started to see some really concerning things, and so we

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Speaker 3: had internal discussion about coming out and saying, hey, it's

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Speaker 3: time to start letting people know that dough populations are

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Speaker 3: not where they need to be in a lot of places,

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Speaker 3: and so it's time to remind hunters that taking dose

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Speaker 3: is a good thing for a lot of reasons. And so,

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Speaker 3: you know, just a bit of a disclaimer though, because

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Speaker 3: I don't want people to get the impression that we're

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Speaker 3: after shooting all the deer and that all the doughs

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Speaker 3: need to be shot. It's also a very localized thing,

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Speaker 3: because I know, even where I live in Pennsylvania, you

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Speaker 3: might have one side of the mountain it's overpopulated with dose,

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Speaker 3: and you got the other side that maybe not. So

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Speaker 3: I would just ask listeners to take this, you know,

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Speaker 3: and also make sure that they apply sort of their

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Speaker 3: own situation to it. And I think the way we've

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Speaker 3: when I say we like collectively the work that you

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Speaker 3: all do, the work that we do at NDA, I

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Speaker 3: think we've educated hunters to the point where they can

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Speaker 3: kind of recognize if there are too many deer out there.

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Speaker 3: And so when you recognize that, I also recognize that

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Speaker 3: you are part of the solution to try to get

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Speaker 3: those things back in control. So, just as a little

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Speaker 3: backdrop of where this was coming from when we were looking.

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Speaker 2: At it, yeah, yeah, great point. Can you highlight for

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Speaker 2: me a few of the numbers or any of the

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Speaker 2: trends that you've seen when you guys started looking at

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Speaker 2: those reports last year or coming into this new year,

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Speaker 2: that kind of got you guys to think, Okay, we

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Speaker 2: do need to start addressing this even more than we

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Speaker 2: have because you guys have been forever talking about responsibly

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Speaker 2: managing the deer herd, trying to achieve some level of

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Speaker 2: balance with habitat and ratio of bucks to doze. But

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Speaker 2: what are some of those numbers that gave you pause?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that goes all the way back to nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty eight. Was we were one of the first ones

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Speaker 3: to tell people to try to shoot more does, and

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Speaker 3: we had to explain to them why because it was

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Speaker 3: a foreign concept to many. But we can maybe get

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Speaker 3: into that in a bit. But some of the big

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Speaker 3: numbers mark and this is one of the biggest that

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Speaker 3: stand out to me, and that is twenty four out

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Speaker 3: of the thirty seven what we would call sort of

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Speaker 3: typical white tail states midwestern to eastern states were down

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Speaker 3: on their dough harvests from their five year average, and

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Speaker 3: so we can see a blip from year to year.

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Speaker 3: Maybe there are reasons for that, you know, everything ranging

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Speaker 3: from bumper egg corn crop to not to ehd and

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Speaker 3: other things. But the five year average is pretty important,

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Speaker 3: and the majority of those states were down in that

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Speaker 3: five year average, not just in the number of dose killed,

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Speaker 3: but then the number of the ratio of does to

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Speaker 3: buck shot. In an ideal situation, you'd have sort of

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Speaker 3: that one for one at least, you know, which would

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Speaker 3: be a balance. But we started seeing states that below

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Speaker 3: that one one dough per bucks and more more states

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Speaker 3: shooting more bucks than does, which is in some ways

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Speaker 3: it's kind of almost unfathomable that that happened. And so

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Speaker 3: this trend started back in about twenty fife, so from

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Speaker 3: twenty fifteen, with the exception of the COVID year of

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty, more states or there were more bucks shot

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Speaker 3: than dose on average. Just some other statistics that are

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Speaker 3: important I think here. So hunters are shooting less deer overall,

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Speaker 3: which is also something to consider. So back based on

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty one data, forty one percent of hunters killed

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Speaker 3: a single deer. And so some of your listeners might

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Speaker 3: be sitting here, especially the ones that are successful every year, saying,

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Speaker 3: you mean to tell me that less than half the

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Speaker 3: people were shooting one deer. And that was true in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty one. In twenty eleven it was fifty percent,

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Speaker 3: so that's a nine percent decrease. And then in twenty

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighteen percent people killed more than one deer only

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Speaker 3: eighteen percent, so less than two and ten more than

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Speaker 3: one deer. Yeah, so basically, someone shoots their fills their

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Speaker 3: buck tag. The numbers show that the majority of them

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Speaker 3: are then hanging up their bows and rifles or just

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Speaker 3: not trying real hard to fill an antlers tag. So

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Speaker 3: I think those statistics would be pretty startling to most people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well you mentioned about how you know, nationally, on average,

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Speaker 2: we're starting to see more bucks killed than does in

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Speaker 2: many states. In Michigan, we now can see real time

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Speaker 2: harvest reporting because we've got the mandatory harvest report, and

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Speaker 2: I just checked the other day, and it's not subtle.

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Speaker 2: In Michigan. Now it is dramatic. There have been about

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Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty thousand bucks shot so far this

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Speaker 2: year and less than ninety thousand does so almost twice

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Speaker 2: as many bucks have been shot as does so far

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Speaker 2: this year. I mean that is a stark, stark difference.

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Speaker 2: And in that email I referenced earlier our antlust harvest

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Speaker 2: is down on average, I believe thirty percent over the

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Speaker 2: last twenty years here in Michigan. So, you know, pretty

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Speaker 2: pretty dramatic change of what's happening there. So if this

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Speaker 2: is happening, right, we're seeing analyst harvests go down across

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Speaker 2: many states, I would assume then that is meaning that

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Speaker 2: we're seeing deer populations go up. Is that? Am I right?

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Speaker 2: Have we seen any kind of me? I mean, we're

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Speaker 2: are we having that correlation as harvest goes down, populations

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Speaker 2: go up and then everything that follows. Is that the case?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely, I mean, as we know, deer are pretty prolific.

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Speaker 3: You know, It's why when people have maybe a localized

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Speaker 3: DHD EHD outbreak, we remind them it's not the end

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Speaker 3: of the world. That very quickly, within a year or two,

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Speaker 3: that population will be replenished. And so if you think

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Speaker 3: about those percentages of does you know antler list here

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Speaker 3: not all state classifies them exactly as those, but let's

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Speaker 3: assume most of those ant lists here are does it's

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Speaker 3: inevitable that those populations are going to boom and become

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Speaker 3: out of control, and so none of that's good. I mean,

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Speaker 3: there's we have as an organization have strived from day

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Speaker 3: one to talk about balanced herds, to talk about the

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Speaker 3: importance of harvesting dose when it comes to the overall

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Speaker 3: health of that herd. We're you know, reducing human deer conflict,

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Speaker 3: which is something as hunters were not as focused on that.

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Speaker 3: But if you're a non hunter, unfortunately, you're likely going

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Speaker 3: to think mostly of a deer is something you're going

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Speaker 3: to hit with your car or that you're going to

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Speaker 3: have to chase out of your flower bed, and those

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Speaker 3: things go up disease issues. I mean, unfortunately, my colleague

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Speaker 3: Lindsay Thomas wrote an excellent article on the important deer

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Speaker 3: harvest earlier this year, and he picked out the three

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Speaker 3: states that were of the biggest concern and unfortunately for

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Speaker 3: you mark your home state there in Michigan was number one.

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Speaker 3: A twenty four percent drop in the number of antler

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Speaker 3: lists here. I think that was from twenty twenty one

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Speaker 3: to twenty twenty two or maybe the following year, and

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Speaker 3: so the in the ratio of about zero point seventy

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Speaker 3: five dose per buckshot, So that speaks to the numbers

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Speaker 3: you talked about. And then you have Wisconsin, a fourteen

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Speaker 3: percent drop from twenty twenty twenty twenty one season, and

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Speaker 3: they are six percent below their five year average. And

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Speaker 3: we're talking about states and particularly Wisconsin chronic wasting disease issues.

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Speaker 3: Kentucky was third on the list, eleven percent down, And

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Speaker 3: just this past week they announced that they had found

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Speaker 3: CWD in Kentucky. Now, yes, and yeah, that's a huge

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Speaker 3: that's a huge, huge concern. You know, CWD, habitat loss,

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Speaker 3: habitat destruction, human deer conflict, none of that's good for deer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're both at this summit this summer nick

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Speaker 2: related to a whole bunch of different parties coming together

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Speaker 2: talking about chronic wasting disease and various solutions and ways

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Speaker 2: to approach dealing with it in the future. And one

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Speaker 2: of the most important things that everybody could agree on

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Speaker 2: was the single most important thing we need to do

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Speaker 2: is just better manage the population. Right, kill another dough.

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Speaker 2: I think that was one of the simple takeaways we

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Speaker 2: came out of that whole discussion with, like, let's just

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Speaker 2: all get one more dough this year. And that's a

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Speaker 2: pretty simple way to help make a positive difference on

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Speaker 2: a really serious issue, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it really is. We tried to keep the messaging

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Speaker 3: as simply as simple as possible. People can certainly understand that, hey,

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Speaker 3: if you have tags, go ahead and please put forth

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Speaker 3: the effort to do that. But as you recall, we

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Speaker 3: also talked about some of the reasons why people weren't

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Speaker 3: filling those tags, and there are some real issues there too.

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Speaker 3: So part of it is that some simply are just

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Speaker 3: in their focus is I want to fill that buck tag,

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Speaker 3: and my focus is getting that buck, and I don't

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Speaker 3: want to shoot that dough if I see it because

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Speaker 3: my buck might be right behind her, and so they

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Speaker 3: pass on it. So it's passed opportunities. But more tangible

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Speaker 3: issues would be maybe I don't personally have the freezer

300
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Speaker 3: space for one, or maybe the processor that I used

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Speaker 3: to use no longer processes deer or is out of business,

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Speaker 3: and so now I have struggle a struggle with dealing

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Speaker 3: with it. So we're also trying to look at maybe

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Speaker 3: removing some of those barriers from people that aren't killing

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Speaker 3: the number of deer that maybe they used to making

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Speaker 3: it easier to donate your deer. For example, I mean,

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Speaker 3: I can tell you I only keep too deer per year,

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Speaker 3: but I will shoot more than that, and so I've

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Speaker 3: got luckily, I've got a processor nearby that will take

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Speaker 3: deer for donation. But then I also have a personal

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Speaker 3: list of people who want a deer, and so I

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Speaker 3: try to fill that list as a way to help

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Speaker 3: keep me out in the field. And also I just

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Speaker 3: enjoy being out there. I mean, I love hunting. I

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Speaker 3: hold on to ant list tags for the winter season

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Speaker 3: just to ensure that I'm still going to have a

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Speaker 3: chance to go out and hunt if I want to.

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Speaker 3: And so my situation, though, is not the same as

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Speaker 3: everybody else's. And I think what we're seeing is somebody

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Speaker 3: goes out and even if they don't kill their buck,

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Speaker 3: maybe they're just burned out because you know, going day

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Speaker 3: after days a lot of hard work, there's a burden

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Speaker 3: on people's time, and so they're just not getting out

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Speaker 3: there and doing it.

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Speaker 2: So you mentioned the disease issue. If deer populations get

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Speaker 2: out of control, the density leads to disease transmitting more frequently,

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Speaker 2: more easily. Right, You mentioned the increased vehicle collisions and

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Speaker 2: the risk that poses to lots of folks around the country.

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Speaker 2: Can you expand a little bit on the habitat side

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Speaker 2: of things and kind of the long term implications that

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Speaker 2: has on you know, deer and deer hunting, you know,

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Speaker 2: years down the line too, because that's something that I

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Speaker 2: think is easy to overlook, especially if you live and

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Speaker 2: hunt in an agricultural area where you think there's food everywhere.

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Speaker 2: But that's an issue all over the place, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: It sure is. I mean, so there is the agricultural

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Speaker 3: part of it. We'll tackle that first. We all may

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Speaker 3: look at these big eggfields and say, wow, that's great.

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Speaker 3: The deer have all this food. But when the farmer

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Speaker 3: comes along and makes a harvest corn, soybeans or whatever,

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Speaker 3: they notice it because they measure those things. It's not

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Speaker 3: like they just say, well, it seems like we had

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Speaker 3: a full truck this year. I mean they literally measure

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Speaker 3: by the bushel what their yields are. And if those

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Speaker 3: yields go down, then all of a sudden, they're tolerance

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Speaker 3: for deer is going to be down as well, and

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Speaker 3: so more of those deer end up getting shot because

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Speaker 3: of crop destruction issues, not by hunters, and it just

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Speaker 3: creates a very difficult situation economically and also opportunity wise

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Speaker 3: for hunting. But then there's the other side of it.

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Speaker 3: There's a forest management part of it. So not everybody

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Speaker 3: is blessed to be able to have their own forest

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Speaker 3: that they can manage and know one to cut trees

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Speaker 3: and create early successional habitat. A lot of our giant

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Speaker 3: public lands are like this, and so one of the

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Speaker 3: reasons that public lands may be unfavorable in terms of

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Speaker 3: good hunting spots is because the forest there's no regeneration

358
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Speaker 3: because there are so many deer that they come in

359
00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,399
Speaker 3: and they basically mow everything new that's down, So you

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Speaker 3: don't get any good edge habitat, you don't get any

361
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Speaker 3: early successional habitat, and therefore the hunting suffers. But these

362
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Speaker 3: deer are still out there, or they're spreading out into

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Speaker 3: these suburban areas where they really shouldn't be, and so

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Speaker 3: there's also an economic loss when it comes to that,

365
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Speaker 3: and obviously an opportunity loss as well. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: live in a town. I live in hunting central western Pennsylvania,

367
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Speaker 3: but I can still see if I get up early enough,

368
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Speaker 3: I can see a deer walking down the street. And

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Speaker 3: I live in town, and I also see movements to

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Speaker 3: we have a green space here, a couple hundred acres

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Speaker 3: that a lot of people hike and enjoy right next

372
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Speaker 3: to the town, and it's got way too many deer

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Speaker 3: in the forest is a mess, and they start talking

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Speaker 3: about things like contraception and other things that are not ideal.

375
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Speaker 3: And so those are the types of things that overpopulation

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Speaker 3: cause that aren't necessarily just related to this, but are

377
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Speaker 3: very important.

378
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Speaker 2: Okay, now here's another one. If we if we were

379
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Speaker 2: to be selfish a little bit and just think about

380
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Speaker 2: the things that a lot of deer hunters default too.

381
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Speaker 2: I'm guilty of this sometimes myself. I can get the

382
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Speaker 2: big buck blinders on sometimes and I'm just like so

383
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Speaker 2: focused on like shooting that one target buck or seeing

384
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Speaker 2: a bigger deer, or seeing an older deer. Right, we

385
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,440
Speaker 2: get excited about that kind of stuff, And that's okay

386
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Speaker 2: to get excited about that kind of stuff if that's

387
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Speaker 2: something that we really care about. Having it out of control,

388
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Speaker 2: doll population is going to hurt a lot of those

389
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Speaker 2: types of goals as well. Right, I mean kind of

390
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Speaker 2: to your point there when it comes to even in

391
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Speaker 2: an agricultural area, you know, even though there's lots of

392
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Speaker 2: food prior to the harvest, once they do pick the

393
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Speaker 2: beans and harvest the corn, and that waste grain disappears.

394
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Speaker 2: You know, by the time you get to February or March,

395
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Speaker 2: if you have way too many deer, there's not a

396
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 2: lot of food left out there. And if the force

397
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 2: is picked clean, all of a sudden, you've gotten nutritionally

398
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 2: depleted critters. Once you're getting into the spring, when these

399
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Speaker 2: deer are struggling the most, right, that's not good for

400
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Speaker 2: antler growth. That's not good for lactating dos later into

401
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 2: the spring early summer. There's a lot of downsides when

402
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 2: it comes to that side of things as well.

403
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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I mean you're hitting on really sort of

404
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,199
Speaker 3: the key concepts of herd health, which when you go

405
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Speaker 3: all the way back to when the National Deer Association

406
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 3: previously known as the Quality Deer Management Association was started,

407
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 3: it got the reputation for being an organization it just

408
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 3: cared about big bucks, and I think people miss the point. Okay,

409
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 3: nicer racked deer is a symptom of quality herd and

410
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 3: habitat management. So you can enjoy opportunities better deer if

411
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 3: all population is in control and the herd is more balanced.

412
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Speaker 3: Habitat is balanced, and so we still very much care

413
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Speaker 3: about all those things and are very core to our mission,

414
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Speaker 3: but we try to talk about them a little bit

415
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,919
Speaker 3: differently so that people don't miss construe what we're about.

416
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 3: And so to your point, and it's hard sometimes to

417
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 3: just explain generally how seeing less deer is actually better

418
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,120
Speaker 3: for you as a hunter, and so it's very subtle.

419
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Speaker 3: You mentioned things like different times a year and not

420
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 3: having that food available. So for every pound less that

421
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 3: a young buck is able to eat throughout those winter months,

422
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 3: and the harder it is on him, you will see

423
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 3: that impact on that deer's antler growth later, because the

424
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 3: first thing that a deer's body does is it takes

425
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 3: care of its body, and then from there the antler

426
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 3: growth and so on is going to be largely dependent

427
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 3: on how healthy that deer came through the winter and spring.

428
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 3: Same thing with lactating does. Let's say that you have

429
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Speaker 3: a dough that had dropped two fawns, and she's trying

430
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Speaker 3: to feed two fawns throughout the spring, but her nutrition

431
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 3: isn't good. And now you've got these two Let's say

432
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Speaker 3: one of those is a button buck, okay, and now

433
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 3: he is maybe he's born later to begin with, and

434
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 3: then he's not getting the type of nutrition he needs

435
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 3: as a yearling deer, and now he struggles his entire

436
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 3: life to catch up from that. And so it's not

437
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 3: even just a one year thing. A lean year can

438
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 3: actually lead to multiple years of being lean and not

439
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 3: reaching full potential. So I know that we all want

440
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 3: to see deer when we hunt. It's not fun when

441
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 3: you go out and you sit in the freezing cold

442
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 3: and you maybe don't see anything, But that's part of

443
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 3: the deal. If you really care about the overall herd

444
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 3: health and and really if you want to see bigger,

445
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 3: better bucks, which a lot of us do, dough management

446
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 3: is a critical part of that.

447
00:24:47,400 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And what about I mean, I know we like

448
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 2: to see a lot of deer, and I'm guilty of

449
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 2: it too. I like to see a lot of deer,

450
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 2: but I also like to see certain kinds of deer behavior.

451
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: And this is another one. If you have a more

452
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 2: in balance buck to dough ratio and a more balanced

453
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 2: herd structure, age structure, all those kinds of things, it

454
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,239
Speaker 2: can lead to more exciting hunts in a different kind

455
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 2: of way too, Right, Can you speak a little bit

456
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 2: to how you know your dough population and bucks to

457
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 2: dough ratio can impact like the rut and that kind

458
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 2: of stuff that we always dream about.

459
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's funny because we've listened I'm sure both

460
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 3: of us to one hundred podcasts over the last few

461
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 3: weeks talking about the rut. I mean, you've had several

462
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 3: great guests on talking about this issue and one of

463
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 3: the things that comes up. And it's funny because I'll

464
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,239
Speaker 3: hear you and Tony going back and forth on this

465
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 3: when you guys are together about how man, it's like

466
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 3: the first week in November and I haven't seen a

467
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 3: deer for three days. What's going on? And so the

468
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 3: reality of that is is, if you know, let's put

469
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 3: this into a human perspective, right, if you're a young

470
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 3: man or young woman trying to meet a partner and

471
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 3: you're in a town that's got one hundred thousand people

472
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 3: in it, you ain't gonna have to go far. But

473
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 3: if you're in a small town, you're probably gonna you know,

474
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 3: with fewer people, you're probably going to have to go

475
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 3: further to meet that person. And that's the same thing

476
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 3: with deer. I mean, if there's a good mature buck.

477
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 3: Let's say you've got him, even if your property's a

478
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 3: small one. Let's see, have one hundred acre property and

479
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 3: you've got a mature buck that you're after, and you've

480
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 3: been passing doors all along because you just keep thinking

481
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 3: he's going to show up one of these days. Well,

482
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 3: he doesn't have to go far to find those does.

483
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 3: He's going to find the first one, he's going to

484
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 3: have her in the area that he wants her, and

485
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 3: then he's going to be able to easily find the

486
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 3: next one. And he doesn't have to really go far.

487
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,959
Speaker 3: He's not really challenged a whole lot, as opposed to

488
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 3: if your dough herd is in balance or at least close.

489
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 3: I mean, one to one is pretty difficult to achieve

490
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 3: in most cases. But even two to one, he's going

491
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 3: to have to do a little, you know, put a

492
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,479
Speaker 3: little effort for it to go find that though, as

493
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 3: opposed to just pretty much staying close to his feed

494
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 3: and staying close to his bed and being able to

495
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 3: accomplish that breeding. He doesn't want to, especially mature deer,

496
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 3: does not want to expend all the extra energy if

497
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 3: he doesn't have to. He doesn't want to get into

498
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 3: fights and brawls with other bucks if he doesn't have to.

499
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 3: But you as a hunter, if you're sitting there, man,

500
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,959
Speaker 3: that can make for a long boring road. Sitting there

501
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 3: during the rut and not seeing any deer. That's that's

502
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 3: likely the biggest cause of it. As opposed to multiple

503
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 3: bucks moving across the landscape you get, you're going to

504
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 3: see more chasing, You're going to see more cruising. If

505
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 3: you're seeing that, you're seeing more sign laid down things

506
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 3: are probably in pretty good order in terms of your

507
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 3: buck to dough ratio in those areas.

508
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the few places that I've been able to

509
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 2: hunt and like that, you're also seeing you know, bucks

510
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 2: doing buck things like vocalizing and getting really you know,

511
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 2: aggressive with each other. You're seeing bucks actually fighting, and

512
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: you're seeing you know, snort and just cool stuff like

513
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 2: when I've been to Iowa and some of these locations

514
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 2: like that, it's just so different than where I'm in Michigan.

515
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: And a lot of it has to do with some

516
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 2: herd structure things like that. I mean, you know, here

517
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 2: where I live, this general area is very much like

518
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 2: the first situation you described where there's so many does

519
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 2: that every buck is set, he doesn't have to work

520
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 2: hard at all because he gets gets done, and he's

521
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: he's got another six, seven, ten dos within ten acres

522
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 2: to pick from, and then he's off to the next one,

523
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: and ten minutes later he can likely be finding another.

524
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 2: And it can make for some slow days when they

525
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 2: when the bucks don't need to work hard, the hunter does.

526
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and eight structure is important there too, you know.

527
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 3: It's uh, older bucks understand better how to you know,

528
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 3: do those types of things, so they're going to be

529
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 3: more prolific kind of scrapers and serious scrapes, you know,

530
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 3: and and and rubs and aggression towards other deer, whereas

531
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 3: the younger bucks. Again, to get back to people, your

532
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 3: game is a lot better when you're in your twenties

533
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 3: than it was when you were in your teens, right,

534
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 3: And so it's the same thing with deer now.

535
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 2: I'm not sure about if I had to re enter

536
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: the game in my thirties, I might have lost it.

537
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 3: So well that then you're just that big old mature buck, right,

538
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 3: and you hope that you've you hope that you've established

539
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: your dominance in a way that the doughs just come

540
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 3: to you.

541
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think at this point I'm that really

542
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 2: old lazy, dumb deaf buck that's missing an eye and

543
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: kind of limpse along Lasn's better. That's that might be

544
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 2: where I am.

545
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 3: So I gotcha, I can relate.

546
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, thankfully. My my wife is still is still sticking

547
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 2: by me. So here's this thing, you know, when it

548
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: comes to the whole dough thing, and you mentioned this

549
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 2: early on, there's always exceptions to what we're talking about here, right,

550
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: Like there are some places where we need to be

551
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 2: more aggressive with dough harvest, like we're talking about here,

552
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 2: But then there's other spots where that's not the case, right,

553
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: I mean up in northern Michigan and a lot of

554
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: places that I hunt around my my deer cam up there,

555
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 2: it still seems like it's it's pretty down load deer populations.

556
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 2: I know there's concerns up in northern Minnesota and northern

557
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 2: Wisconsin places like that where someone up there listening to

558
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 2: this might be fuming and saying, what are you guys

559
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 2: talking about? We never see deer, it's horrible, et cetera.

560
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 2: Can you can you give me some semblance and an

561
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: idea of how you guys recommend a hunter figure out,

562
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 2: you know, do I need to be getting more aggressive

563
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: or do I not? Is it simply just an eyeball test,

564
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 2: like what do you feel or should we be getting

565
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: serious about a deer census. Can we get a hold

566
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 2: of our state biologist and just ask like, what's the

567
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 2: actual steps we should take to figure out that?

568
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so there are anecdotal there is anecdotal evidence,

569
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 3: and then there's science that you can use. And everybody's

570
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 3: situation is different. If you're someone that's just your public

571
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 3: land and you're unable to go in and do an

572
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 3: actual deer trail camera survey, which if you go to

573
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 3: the National Deer Association website, type in trail camera survey,

574
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 3: we'll show you the science of how you can do that,

575
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 3: take you step by step into calculations, and you'll know

576
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 3: how many deer per square mile that you have. For

577
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 3: a lot of people, though, that's not going to be realistic.

578
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 3: So I think part of it's a visual test or

579
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 3: knowing at least your local herd. So I know I

580
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 3: actually own some land. It's not a huge piece of land,

581
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 3: but I can tell you that I am on top

582
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 3: of understanding what deer living there. Okay, So through trail cameras,

583
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 3: through looking at my habitat, through my own harvest data,

584
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 3: I'm pretty confident on most of the deer living there,

585
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 3: especially the bucks, but even the dough family groups that

586
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 3: when I see them, I can pretty much recognize who

587
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 3: they are and have some idea of where they come from.

588
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 3: And so I can tell you that during the first

589
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 3: day of our firearm season this year, I saw twenty

590
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 3: two deer that day. Now, when I'm out there hunting

591
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 3: archery season, which is what I do mostly, a pretty

592
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 3: average or decent night for me is I'm going to

593
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 3: see four, maybe six deer. And so there's a difference

594
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 3: between the deer that are living on me for the

595
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 3: most of the year and the deer that I may

596
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 3: have recruited because of pressure and firearm season or whatever.

597
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 3: But the pointing saying that is when I went out

598
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 3: with firearm, didn't I didn't intend to shoot a dough.

599
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 3: My focus was I would do some more of that

600
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 3: in the winter archery season. But when I saw twenty

601
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,719
Speaker 3: two deer on opening day, regardless of whether they were

602
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 3: directly living on me or I recruited them from nearby,

603
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 3: I decided the next day, the first nice, big adult

604
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 3: dough that comes in, I'm shooting that deer, because man,

605
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 3: that's concerning to me. As much as it was exciting

606
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 3: to see that many deer, I knew in my mind,

607
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 3: and I own land in a CWD management zone, you

608
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 3: know what, I need to do my part here, and

609
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 3: I need to shoot a deer, And so I did.

610
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 3: I shot the deer and I donated it to a

611
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 3: friend of mine. So some of it will be anecdotal.

612
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 3: If you just feel like you're seeing what seems like

613
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 3: too many deer, you're getting a lot of them on

614
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 3: your trail camera, that's probably a signal to you to

615
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 3: go ahead and start filling more of those dough tags.

616
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 3: And so you know, there's the science and there's the anecdotal.

617
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 2: So to your point, a lot of folks just probably

618
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: aren't going to go and do a scientific trail cam

619
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: survey of their population. Is there any kind of like

620
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: rough back of the napkin kind of estimate? And I

621
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 2: know there's no good answer to this as I'm posing

622
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: this question to you, because it's all going to be

623
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 2: habitat dependent too, But I can imagine there's gonna be

624
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 2: some people listening thinking how many deer is too many deer? Right?

625
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: I mean, let's just say you hunt a hundred acre

626
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 2: piece of ground. Let's just to make it simple, it's

627
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 2: kind of mixed habitat, some kind of agriculture, some kind

628
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 2: of cover. You know that probably applies to a whole

629
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 2: lot of hunters across the country, some kind of mix

630
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 2: like that, one hundred acres. Is there any kind of

631
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 2: rough number that we can throw out there and say like, hey,

632
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: this is way too many? This is probably right? Or

633
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 2: is it just so situationally dependent it's not even worth

634
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 2: tossing numbers up.

635
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,439
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, as you know, I work with a lot

636
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 3: of wildlife biologists, right, and they're always going to tell

637
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 3: you they're always going to start their answer with well

638
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:20,760
Speaker 3: it depends.

639
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're getting really nervous as I pose this question.

640
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 3: Yeah they are. No, Yeah, they sometimes they rarely let

641
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 3: me out to actually talk to anybody into public because

642
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 3: they're afraid I'll mess up. But no, I mean, so

643
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 3: you know, there are It doesn't have to be a

644
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 3: deer trail camera survey. There are other things you can do.

645
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 3: You can do pellet counts, there are some vegetation surveys

646
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 3: you can do. But in terms of hey, is there

647
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 3: just sort of like a general number that you know is,

648
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 3: for example, is fifteen deer per square mile? Is that

649
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 3: the right number is thirty deer per square mile? It

650
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 3: does depend. But when I think about like the area

651
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 3: that you live in Mark, which I have been to,

652
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 3: and I under understand kind of what you're looking looking

653
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 3: at there, it actually is very similar to the area

654
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 3: that did I live and hunt in. You know, fifteen

655
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 3: deer per square miles probably pretty good because you've got

656
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 3: that's not a huge gigantic number, and there's a lot

657
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: of food around, there's a lot of edge habitat uh

658
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 3: and so there's opportunity. But I would say if I

659
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 3: were to go an hour or so north of where

660
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 3: I live into the Alleghany National Forest, that's too many

661
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 3: deer for there because you lose the agriculture and if

662
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 3: you don't have good eggcorn years or other good mass years,

663
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 3: it can be really challenging for deer. So it does depend.

664
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 3: But if you're talking about sort of that very traditional

665
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 3: mix of hardwoods with with some agriculture, but not not

666
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 3: the not the hard Midwest where you're you know, you're

667
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,359
Speaker 3: thinking Iowa and Kansas and gigantic agfields. You know, I've

668
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 3: always in my mind kind of thought of that as

669
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 3: just a general rule of thumb. You know, fifteen's pretty good.

670
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 3: You might be able to hold a few more. But

671
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 3: I'd rather, I'd rather have a few less, but bigger,

672
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,280
Speaker 3: healthier deer than to try to get to that already

673
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 3: number or even beyond that, because that's when you start

674
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 3: running into issues.

675
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I I don't know how to get the

676
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 2: real number, but I bet around here it's got to

677
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 2: be more like fifty to one hundred deer per square

678
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 2: mile where I'm at. I mean, it's not it's not

679
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 2: out of the question to see twenty to thirty five

680
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 2: to twenty to forty deer in an evening sit, you know,

681
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 2: on those like banger nights where the conditions are right

682
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 2: and the corners came down or something. I mean, I've

683
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 2: had a lot of nights like that over the years,

684
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 2: and it's hard to make a dent in that. You know,

685
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 2: when you've got a little bit bit of ground here

686
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 2: and there, you can hunt and I feel like, you know,

687
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm doing I'm trying to be a

688
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 2: part of the solution. But it almost seems like to

689
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 2: make any kind of real dent, it's like you need

690
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: to take ten, fifteen to twenty dos something like that,

691
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,439
Speaker 2: and that's a lot for any one single person to do.

692
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 2: How do you how do you think about like the numbers?

693
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 2: Nick Like in a situation like I'm in, like I've got,

694
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 2: you know, a couple of permission pieces in a square

695
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 2: mile area, and I'm one guy, and I am inviting

696
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 2: friends and new hunters and stuff to come out and

697
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 2: do that kind of stuff. But how do you feel,

698
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 2: like how many doughs I should be taking? Is it

699
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 2: just like as many as you possibly can, or is

700
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 2: there a way to be a little more scientific about it?

701
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 3: Yep. So obviously the first thing is going to be

702
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 3: how many tags does your state allow you? I mean,

703
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 3: that's that's another challenge I hear from people, Well I'm

704
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 3: only allowed to have one antler list tag. Well, that's

705
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 3: probably a bigger issue to be taken up with your

706
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 3: state management agency. But I think in most cases nowadays

707
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 3: it's pretty generous, especially in you know, the Northeast and

708
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 3: even up in the areas you live Upper Midwest. I know,

709
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 3: when I buy my license in Delaware, I get four

710
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 3: antler list tags right off the bat with that license,

711
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 3: so I think that's good. My general advice would be

712
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 3: get as many tags as you can get, and then

713
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 3: from there you're going to sort of play it by

714
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 3: what you see, right so I can get I think

715
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 3: up to six tags now where I live. This year,

716
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 3: I didn't buy six. I think I bought four, and

717
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 3: so I'm still holding onto a couple of those, and

718
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 3: I'm going to let what I've seen this year help

719
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 3: dictate that. Not scientific, but as I'm familiar enough with

720
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 3: my area that I'm pretty comfortable with that, and I

721
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 3: know now based on what I've seen, I've already filled

722
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 3: that one extra tag. I know. I want to go

723
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 3: out in the winter season and fell at least one

724
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 3: more antlerless tag and try to encourage other people in

725
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 3: the area to do the same thing. I'm one thing too,

726
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: I want to caution people because you'd brought up what

727
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 3: you might see right now. It's also a little trickier

728
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 3: in winter because if you happen to live near one

729
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 3: of these big bag fields that was cut down, you

730
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 3: might be recruiting deer into there from miles away and

731
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 3: that's why when we do our trail camera surveys that

732
00:38:55,000 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 3: are the scientific evaluation, those happen in August when you're

733
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 3: dealing with your local herd that lives on you for

734
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 3: most of the year, and not those unique situations where

735
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 3: you might be drawing deer in from a from a

736
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 3: large distance. So that's another reason, by the way, to

737
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 3: fill your dough tags early if you're focused on local management,

738
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 3: because you're you are taking a deer that is a

739
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 3: resident or nearby resident of the place you're hunting. That

740
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 3: all changes once you have gun seasons, moving deer around

741
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 3: and deer get into sort of their winter habits or

742
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 3: finding where that food is. And so you might be

743
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 3: shooting a deer now that lived three miles away for

744
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 3: most of the year.

745
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, So that that brings up a good and

746
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 2: good kind of segue to actually doing the thing. So

747
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 2: you just answered my next question partially, But are there

748
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 2: any better or worse times to start targeting dough So

749
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,280
Speaker 2: you just you just made a case for targeting doughs early.

750
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 2: Is there any other reason why it's a good idea

751
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 2: to take a dough early versus late, and then vice versa.

752
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: Is there any reason why a late season jial kill

753
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 2: is better or worse.

754
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 3: Generally speaking, anytime you have an opportunity is going to

755
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 3: be a good time. Okay. Now, I'm not saying you've

756
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 3: got your target buck coming in and he's following a dough.

757
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 3: I'm not saying shoot the dough in that situation. Okay,

758
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 3: let's be realistic about it. But earlier in the year

759
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 3: is more likely that you are removing a deer from

760
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 3: the property or nearby property, that you're hunting a deer

761
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 3: that uses your place. Okay, So locally, you are helping

762
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 3: your situation more locally, and also at a time when

763
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,879
Speaker 3: you're probably not that you're not always focused on a buck.

764
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 3: But let's be honest, when we're going out there and

765
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 3: we're still sweating and we're carrying a thermicell, likelihood of

766
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 3: seeing the buck we're after might be a little bit

767
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 3: tougher during that time. And so just it's just a

768
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 3: mental approach, like you know what, I am setting aside

769
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 3: the first couple of weeks of the season to focus

770
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 3: on antler list deer. Don't get me wrong, if I

771
00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 3: see a buck that i'd like to shoot, I'm going

772
00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 3: to shoot it. But my focus is going to be

773
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 3: to try to fill some of those dough tags. If

774
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 3: you do that before the rut, you are able to

775
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 3: help with some of those things that we talked about earlier.

776
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 3: Those are, you know, a dough or two less than

777
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 3: bucks are going to be able to chase nearby during

778
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 3: that time. So it's very helpful that way. But in

779
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 3: the winter too, I don't want people to get me wrong.

780
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 3: Even if you do shoot that dough that maybe lives

781
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 3: three miles away, you're still helping the situation. You're still

782
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 3: helping somebody, and you're also either putting meat in your

783
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 3: own freezer or to a friend or to someone who

784
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 3: really needs it. And you know, we still have an

785
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 3: awful lot of hungry people in this country, and people

786
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 3: don't understand how far those donations go. And I feel

787
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 3: really good about it every time I donate a deer

788
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,839
Speaker 3: through those programs. So I love to hunt. I can't

789
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 3: eat all the deer, but there are other people that

790
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 3: can help with that. So you're always helping the situation

791
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 3: anytime you take a dough out.

792
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, I've heard some people say you shouldn't shoot

793
00:41:57,840 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 2: a dough in the late season because you're killing your

794
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 2: future bucks because those are doughs that have already been bred,

795
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 2: and now you're just wiping out your future deer. What

796
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: do you say to that person, Yeah.

797
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 3: I mean, if you just want to look at the

798
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,280
Speaker 3: math of it, well, certainly, if you take out a dough,

799
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,240
Speaker 3: but if you take her out before she gets pregnant

800
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 3: or after, regardless, you're likely taking out two or three right,

801
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 3: and so inevitably in that population you're going to have

802
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 3: button bucks or bucks that are taken out. That's just

803
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 3: the reality of the situation. You are not deer very resilient, okay,

804
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 3: and so you should be focused less on numbers of

805
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 3: bucks and more on quality and age class of bucks

806
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 3: and having deer throughout those age classes. And so to

807
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,919
Speaker 3: have twenty five yearling bucks running around every year where

808
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 3: you live doesn't really help your situation. It's too many

809
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 3: deer to begin with. You're not getting that type of

810
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 3: hunting opportunity that you may desire for mature deer or

811
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 3: we talked about mature deer behavior, have that that's what

812
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 3: we used to have where it was you know, people

813
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 3: would shoot any buck, which is fine. I would never

814
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 3: tell anybody to put the value of the tag is

815
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 3: what you put on it. You do with what you want.

816
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 3: But back in the day it was in your state,

817
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 3: my state, any buck with an antler was a buck,

818
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 3: and you shot it, and you probably only had one

819
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 3: dough tag. Your state only allowed you maybe one dough tag,

820
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 3: and so easy to see what happens with population issues.

821
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 3: But I would say, if you're trying to do that

822
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 3: math and saying, well, if I kill a dough, I'm

823
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 3: killing that buck that I'm going to kill four years

824
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 3: from now, that's a pretty tough, unrealistic math problem there.

825
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 3: It's a tough way to live your life as a hunter.

826
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that the risk, like the possible downsides,

827
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 2: are far outweighed by the upsides of doing all the

828
00:43:46,680 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 2: other things we mentioned. Now you did, you did lay

829
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 2: out one scenario that I have worried about, especially during

830
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 2: that November timeframe or even early December, when there's that

831
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 2: second rut possibility. I've always been kind of allergic to

832
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 2: shooting a dough during that time period when a dough

833
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 2: might be bringing a buck along with her. But I

834
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 2: actually did it for the first time this year. I

835
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 2: shot a dough during the rut this year. With apprehension,

836
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 2: but I was like, I'm gonna do it because i'd actually,

837
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 2: you know, as as listeners of the podcast know, I

838
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 2: hit a buck I've been after all year in the

839
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 2: shoulder at the end of October, and so when November

840
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 2: rolled around, I was like, I just need to, like

841
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 2: I need to get some confidence back. I need to

842
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 2: have a great shot on a dough and I just

843
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 2: wanted to like just feel good about something again. So

844
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm going I'm gonna take this dough.

845
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,839
Speaker 2: It was November, I don't know, I can't remember. Somewhere

846
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 2: in that first week or ten days of November, somewhere

847
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 2: in that ballpark, yep, and and took a shot, got

848
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 2: her and immediately was like, worry though, oh man, that

849
00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 2: is there gonna be a buck that's gonna come through

850
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 2: here and smell that dough and then go off, you know,

851
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:04,919
Speaker 2: follow her back into the woods that way, or what's

852
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: going to happen? Or did I spook something else? I

853
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 2: was thinking about all those things, but I said, forget,

854
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 2: I just got to get a dough here. But what's

855
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 2: your take on that, Nick? As far as shooting a

856
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 2: dough during the rut, the risk of that in any

857
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 2: kind of way impacting the rest of your hunt that

858
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: day or anything. Is that all overblown and we're just

859
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 2: you know, getting worked up about nothing.

860
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

861
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 3: First, I got to tell you what I was listening

862
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 3: to the show when Tony was using the analogy of

863
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 3: going into a bar and getting stabbed in the shoulder.

864
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 3: I literally laughed out loud when I heard that. That

865
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 3: was that was top top rate. But yes, yeah, it

866
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 3: was so. Now, I think that we often give give

867
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 3: all of these deer in situations way too much thought

868
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 3: and credit that we should. Deer are disturbed constantly out there,

869
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 3: and they are unable to the problem is we process

870
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 3: information as human beings, and so that's the that's the

871
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 3: lens we see the world through. Deer do not process

872
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 3: their world like that. I mean, you shoot, if two

873
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 3: deers stand in there, and you shoot the one right

874
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 3: beside the one that stand and it doesn't go through

875
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 3: that deer's mind, well, that deer just got shot, right,

876
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 3: That's not how a deer's mind works, right, And so

877
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,399
Speaker 3: don't be worried about if you shoot a dough what

878
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:29,359
Speaker 3: that's going to do to your chances of getting a buck. Realistically,

879
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 3: if you do shoot a doe and that buck was

880
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 3: in the area, and he does move off for that

881
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 3: period of time. He doesn't move off forever because in

882
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 3: his mind he's processed that he saw someone get shot

883
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 3: in that area. He processes that, you know what, I've

884
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 3: been disturbed by human Humans are bad, and I'm going

885
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 3: to go somewhere where I'm safe. And then at some

886
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 3: point he's going to return to that area or be

887
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 3: available in some other area. And you know, I see,

888
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 3: I just hear and see so many things about even

889
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,800
Speaker 3: with chore bucks, well, those are just they're just different deer.

890
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 3: And so this is an interesting challenge I'd put out

891
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 3: to people. Everyone's running trail cameras, right, pick out a

892
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:14,280
Speaker 3: couple bucks, just random ones, even yearlings, and then see

893
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 3: how many times you actually see those deer during a

894
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 3: hunting season. You might not see any of them in

895
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 3: the daylight. And so just because some bucks have bigger antlers,

896
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 3: we have said they're the wiser, smarter, and they're deer,

897
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 3: They're still deer. They're still deer, and we give them,

898
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 3: I think, way too much credit for how they process

899
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 3: information and how things we do may impact them. And

900
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 3: so yeah, again, if you get a nice shot opportunity

901
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 3: to doe in November and you see that there's no

902
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 3: buck around her, that's a great time to take her,

903
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 3: take her, get her out of the woods, and you

904
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 3: fill the tag and get back focused on bucks.

905
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So anytime it's a good time should doe.

906
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 2: Another dilemma that I know a lot of folks face,

907
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 2: and I've sometimes thought through too, is which dough to

908
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 2: shoot or should I shoot this dough or not based

909
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 2: on the situation. So I'll lay out a couple of scenarios.

910
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 2: Number One, if there's an adult dough with young what's

911
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 2: your take on shooting that adult dough with young Number two,

912
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 2: if there's a group of does and you can see

913
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 2: summer older, some aer younger, which is the best dough? Take?

914
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 2: Do I shoot the big old one? Do I shoot

915
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 2: the younger one? Doesn't matter? What do you think about those?

916
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 3: Yeah? I'm primarily for focused in a perfect situation of

917
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 3: going for the biggest, oldest one if I can. But

918
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 3: at the same time, if an eighteen month old dough

919
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 3: presents a good shot opportunity, I'm not going to wait

920
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 3: on the other dough. If I want to fill a

921
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 3: dough tag, because we all know how quickly a dough

922
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 3: hunt can go bad if one of them smells you,

923
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 3: and now you don't shoot any deer. And so you know,

924
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 3: I don't think I've ever shot a dough fond that

925
00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 3: I knew was a dough fawn. Maybe one, except in

926
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,839
Speaker 3: a winter season where those dough fonts are darn near

927
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 3: as big as adults. But my focus is if I can,

928
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 3: I want the biggest, oldest dough. But I've got no

929
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 3: qualms at all with shooting an eighteen month old dough.

930
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 3: The first dough I shot this season was an eighteen

931
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 3: month old. They are very good to eat. They're also

932
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 3: of good size, and they're also typically alone, and so

933
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 3: you don't have the battle of trying to beat a

934
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 3: bunch of different eyeballs and that type of thing. So

935
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 3: you know, I wouldn't waste a whole lot of time

936
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 3: being focused on that. If you get a good shot opportunity,

937
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 3: take the good shot opportunity. But I do have a

938
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 3: tendency to focus on the bigger, older wins if I

939
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 3: can do it.

940
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm right there with you. Okay, So we

941
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: don't really get into this whole lot, but it is

942
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 2: worth talking about specific tactics when you are actually going

943
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 2: out on a dough only hunt, like you're out there

944
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 2: either in an ant li list only season or you've

945
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 2: got your buck tags failed and you're just trying to

946
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 2: kill some doughs. Every year, I get to this time

947
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 2: of year and I'm like, all right, now it's dough season.

948
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 2: Like I'm you know, when I've got that buck tag filled,

949
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 2: or when I get late, I usually just like revert to, Okay,

950
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 2: I really got to get working on management if I

951
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 2: haven't got enough down yet. And it always seems like

952
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 2: early in the year I think to myself, Oh, it's

953
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 2: so easy. I'll be able to get does whenever I want.

954
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 2: And it seems like whenever you're trying to kill a buck,

955
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 2: the doze or everywhere, right, But as soon as you're

956
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,959
Speaker 2: specifically trying to kill one, all of a sudden things

957
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:30,800
Speaker 2: don't quite work out that way. So does your approach

958
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 2: two hunting? Does Does it change at all throughout the

959
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 2: season or would you say that the general tactics to

960
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 2: try to kill an analyst deer, you know, apply in

961
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 2: September just as much as they apply in December.

962
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, they certainly change by the season. You know, early

963
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,720
Speaker 3: season is another reason to try to shoot them early

964
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 3: is because you're getting in there before they've been bothered

965
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 3: and disturbed a whole lot, you know, maybe when they

966
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 3: enter your shooting area or your food plot early seas

967
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,959
Speaker 3: and they're not nearly as in tune as they will

968
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 3: be the next time they come out there in the

969
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 3: time after that. So there's that factor. And then in

970
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,240
Speaker 3: that winter season too, one of the things I found

971
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:14,240
Speaker 3: is unless you have one of those dynamic food sources

972
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 3: that's drawing deer in from everywhere, those deer that you

973
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 3: were seeing in August are kind of moved back into

974
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 3: those same areas again, and so you're dealing, you know,

975
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 3: sometimes with those deer that live on your property most

976
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:27,240
Speaker 3: of the time and know it best. So I'm still

977
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 3: certainly focused on food in the winter season. That is

978
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 3: very much the driver during that time of year. But

979
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,760
Speaker 3: I would say what happens is mark guys that are scouting,

980
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 3: they're mostly scouting bucks, and so just think about going

981
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 3: through trail cameras. How many people listening to this flip

982
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 3: through their pictures and they just up and they see

983
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 3: dough and it's like the leat deleite, deleaite, deleaite, and

984
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 3: they put no stock into what they're looking at. I

985
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 3: think you had Steve Bartilla on a while back and

986
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 3: he was talking about this. He's always so entertaining, but

987
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 3: he was talking about this to the point and I

988
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 3: was nodding my head saying, you know, that's right. We

989
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 3: don't really look at those pictures to know, hey, this

990
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 3: dough group's been hitting, this has been on this trail

991
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 3: like every day for the past week, and so when

992
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 3: I'm deciding on my spots to go hunt that deer,

993
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 3: I really should be looking at that data. And so, yeah,

994
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 3: I think that's the biggest part of it, is be

995
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,240
Speaker 3: willing to scout and understand what your does are doing,

996
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 3: and you're going to be a much better dough hunter

997
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 3: because of that. You don't just throw that out the

998
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,359
Speaker 3: window and say, well, yeah, there's always does out there.

999
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 3: I always see dose, But how many do you actually see,

1000
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 3: especially if you're bow hunting, how many do you see

1001
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 3: within range that you could have shot? That's a completely

1002
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 3: different question.

1003
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, very true. So it does really come back

1004
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,919
Speaker 2: down to some of those staples of deer hunting. We're

1005
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 2: just you know, you can discount. I'm not worried about

1006
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,320
Speaker 2: rubs down, I'm not worried about scrapes now, But tracks

1007
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 2: and droppings and trails and sign of feeding, all that

1008
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 2: kind of stuff, all of a sudden becomes really important.

1009
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,399
Speaker 2: I guess. The nice thing. One of the reasons I

1010
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 2: love dough hunting so much is that you typically have

1011
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 2: a much more target rich environment or target like your

1012
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:11,959
Speaker 2: pool of possible targets has all of a sudden gone

1013
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 2: up dramatically, and so you know, any sign is usually

1014
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:17,319
Speaker 2: a good sign in that kind of case, right, So yeah,

1015
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 2: get a little more work with Yeah.

1016
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 3: Good old, good old fashioned woodsmanship. I can tell you

1017
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 3: ry hunting Delaware with my friend Ron Hawes there. We

1018
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 3: don't really do it with cameras at all. It's all

1019
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 3: based on reading the leaf litter, fresh trails, fresh tracks.

1020
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 3: We can see clearly areas that have had a lot

1021
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 3: of activity, and we get down window those trails and

1022
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 3: set up I mean trail, I just say trails, and

1023
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 3: something popped into my mind, that's something else heavy trails

1024
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 3: for dose. They're the ones making those trails. It's not

1025
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 3: your mature box, right, and so trails are very good

1026
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 3: sign to get yourself on dose, you know, get the

1027
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 3: wind in your face, get within range of that trail,

1028
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 3: and you're going to likely have an opportunity.

1029
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 2: Okay, as we're less right now, as we're talking, Let's

1030
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 2: say there's someone listening right now, it's December, and they

1031
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 2: hear all this and they say, all right, I gotta

1032
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 2: do my part. I want to take another dough. Can

1033
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,720
Speaker 2: you just name for me a handful of different ideas.

1034
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 2: I know we's talked about scouting for sign or scouting

1035
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,320
Speaker 2: for locations, but if you just had to start throwing

1036
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 2: some food sources out there, or some types of habitat

1037
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 2: to look for at this time of year to have

1038
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 2: some late season success on some doughs, what kind of

1039
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:29,720
Speaker 2: stuff might you we be thinking about?

1040
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 3: Yep. The obvious ones are, if you happen to live

1041
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 3: in an agricultural area and there's some you know that

1042
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:38,359
Speaker 3: there's still some waste grain available, that type of thing.

1043
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 3: You're seeing a lot of deer there. I'm sure right

1044
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 3: now that's the easy one. But let's say you don't

1045
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 3: have that. So within the within the woods, a more

1046
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 3: wooded setting, where is that edge habitat or where is

1047
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 3: there some early successional. And when I say that, not

1048
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 3: everyone might understand what I'm saying there. So younger age

1049
00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 3: classes of vegetation growing up among some of the older

1050
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 3: rage classes. So your shrubs, young trees, a deer are

1051
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 3: really moving heavily toward brows. And so you may be

1052
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 3: walking by a couple a couple down trees that you

1053
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,399
Speaker 3: never looked at. We'll stop for a second. Look at those,

1054
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 3: look at look at the ends or the deer nipping

1055
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 3: the buds off of you know, young shrubs or you know,

1056
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 3: or they are they working those brows areas. Those are

1057
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 3: just as good as food plots, you know. Frankly, another tactic.

1058
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 3: You want to see a bunch of deer, if you

1059
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 3: happen to own the land, get out with your chainsaw

1060
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 3: and knock down a couple of trees and then set

1061
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 3: up on those, because that's instant food plot. I mean

1062
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 3: I have seen deer, yeah, I mean it's almost like

1063
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:40,800
Speaker 3: they can hear the chainsaw and it's like a dinner

1064
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 3: bell where you know, you cut a tree down. In

1065
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 3: less than a few hours, they're in there and they're

1066
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 3: feeding on those on those fresh ends. So that's a

1067
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,879
Speaker 3: great opportunity. Any leftover eggcorns, if you can find them,

1068
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,319
Speaker 3: can be a gold mine. Typically at this time of year,

1069
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 3: you're you're looking at your red oaks that maybe have

1070
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:00,360
Speaker 3: been not eating up early in the year when the

1071
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 3: whites were preferred. So if you can find some ake corns,

1072
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 3: a late dropping soft mast, some certain some species of

1073
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 3: crab apple trees don't drop their apples until well into

1074
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:12,839
Speaker 3: the winter. I mean those, if you can find those

1075
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 3: are a gold mine. If you've got some snow on

1076
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:16,759
Speaker 3: the ground, that the deer going to lead you to

1077
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 3: where they are, So really it does get back to

1078
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 3: you know, there's trail camera data, but then there's also

1079
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:24,439
Speaker 3: boot leather data where you can get out and find

1080
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 3: these areas. But you're going to find the deer near

1081
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,839
Speaker 3: the food and the cover, certainly this time of year.

1082
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 2: So one of the things that a lot of folks

1083
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 2: talk about when we're targeting a mature buck in the

1084
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:42,240
Speaker 2: late season is not always, but usually folks prefer evening

1085
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 2: hunts in the late season, and usually the same case

1086
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:47,319
Speaker 2: in the early season. Two right, and there's a lot

1087
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,279
Speaker 2: of talk about moorings, you know, being harder to pull off,

1088
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 2: at least without spooking deer without deer figuring it out,

1089
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 2: just because accessing these places while deer on their feet

1090
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,359
Speaker 2: can be harder. So there are scenarios where you can

1091
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:03,479
Speaker 2: do it, for sure, but on average more difficult when

1092
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:07,320
Speaker 2: we're just targeting dos, though, would you say that's still

1093
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 2: the case or do you think, yeah, it's worth doing

1094
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 2: those morning hunts now in the late season or early

1095
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 2: season when you're targeting antly lists because there's again, like

1096
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 2: we said, there's more of them around, less risk. They

1097
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 2: might be a little bit more tolerant of you know,

1098
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 2: your impact anything like that.

1099
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I go back and forth. I think every situation

1100
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 3: is different. So my particular property, I don't have any

1101
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 3: agriculture within a few miles of my place, and so

1102
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 3: it's what I plant these and all of my plots

1103
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 3: are kind of like interior plots. There's not really a

1104
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 3: great way for me to get in on mornings to

1105
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 3: intercept those deer coming from feed to bed. Okay, if

1106
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 3: I was in the Midwest, I used to live in

1107
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 3: hunt in Ohio, I would hunt mornings there more often

1108
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 3: because there were more obvious opportunities to get between food

1109
00:57:58,360 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 3: and bed, and there were ways I could get in

1110
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:02,920
Speaker 3: and do that, but for the most part, my experience

1111
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:05,720
Speaker 3: has been that deer are kind of moving back to

1112
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 3: bed earlier during these winter months and are coming out

1113
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 3: of their beds earlier also, so evenings have always been

1114
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 3: better for me, and so I spend most of my

1115
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 3: time there. But in my particular environment that I have,

1116
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 3: I hunt very few mornings, except for, you know, when

1117
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 3: the rut is really kicking off, just because the situation

1118
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 3: doesn't dictate that that's a good spot Delaware, I'm going

1119
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 3: to hunt a lot of mornings because we can get

1120
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 3: a half mile off the main feeding areas and intercept

1121
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 3: those deer going back to their beds. So it really

1122
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 3: is sort of site specific.

1123
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, So something I've kind of stumbled on in recent

1124
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 2: years when it comes to the end of the year,

1125
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 2: when I'm down to the last week of hunting season

1126
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 2: or something like that, we've got a late antler list

1127
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 2: firearms season, so you can gun hunt for does right

1128
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 2: to the end of the year. One of the things

1129
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 2: I've started doing on these properties I've got permission on

1130
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 2: that have a lot of ads. You know, I can't

1131
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 2: get in there before daylight without spooking all sorts of

1132
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 2: deer off these ag fields in the morning, right, because

1133
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 2: there's deer out there they're feeding just before daylight. But

1134
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 2: what I have found is that there's usually a few

1135
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 2: deer that linger on those fields after daylight. And so

1136
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 2: what I've started doing is actually waiting till daylight and

1137
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 2: then kind of spot and stalking my way through these fields,

1138
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 2: trying to find that dough family group or a few

1139
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 2: doughs that are lingering, and actually sneak into gun range,

1140
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 2: you know, twenty minutes after daylight and get a shot

1141
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 2: at a deer like that. That's been pretty effective for

1142
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 2: me recently, being able to like get an extra hunt

1143
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 2: in those morning hours. And it's kind of nice. I

1144
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:45,080
Speaker 2: wake up late, I slip in there, I sneak in,

1145
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 2: and if there's dos out there, great, I get a shop.

1146
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 2: If not, I can go back to the car, go

1147
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 2: home and go to work, or take the kids to

1148
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:54,959
Speaker 2: school or whatever. It's been a nice little additional way

1149
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 2: to get some hunts, and that have been pretty effective

1150
00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 2: without a you know, without impacting the property to my

1151
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 2: and without taking a lot of time either.

1152
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. I love that strategy with a rifle in particular.

1153
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 3: I mean, you have a firearm, you don't have to

1154
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 3: get within thirty yards of that deer, and so you

1155
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 3: have the advantage of being able to see. You don't

1156
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 3: need a flashlight. And if you spot a deer, let's

1157
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 3: say you spotted deer a couple hundred yards off, you're

1158
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 3: going to be a lot more effective at getting close

1159
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 3: enough when you can see where you're going and you

1160
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 3: can read that deer's behavior, you can see when they're

1161
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 3: looking at you when they're not. And so no, I

1162
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 3: absolutely love that strategy. I think generally we all probably

1163
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 3: don't have to be walking into our hunting spots in

1164
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 3: the middle of the dark. We could probably all walk

1165
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 3: in right about daybreak and be maybe even better off.

1166
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:43,439
Speaker 3: So that certainly applies in this situation in the winter.

1167
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. So all this, though, comes down to a little

1168
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 2: bit back to the impact we make on on deer herd, right,

1169
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 2: the pressure effect. And I mean, you know me, at least,

1170
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 2: I'm pretty like obsessive about that stuff, and I worry

1171
01:00:57,680 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 2: a lot about the pressure I'm putting on the deer

1172
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:02,439
Speaker 2: herd and all those kinds of things. When it comes

1173
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 2: to does though, do you think that they are more

1174
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,240
Speaker 2: tolerant of our impact? Like sometimes I think they are,

1175
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 2: And then other times I see like that old nanny

1176
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 2: Doe who seems to be like on edge more than

1177
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 2: a buck half the time. Do you think we can

1178
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 2: get away with more when we're just targeting those doughs

1179
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 2: or not?

1180
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 3: So I think you can get away with more in

1181
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 3: terms of that dough is still going to want to

1182
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 3: move even though she knows that there's been pressure. But

1183
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 3: you've got a different kind of deer moving at this point. Okay,

1184
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 3: you've got a dough that's willing to move, but she

1185
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 3: has not taken many steps without wind checking, you know,

1186
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:40,919
Speaker 3: looking at all the likely spots where she's probably seen

1187
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 3: you before, checking the ground in case somebody's walked through there.

1188
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 3: That dough that you're trying to shoot right now is

1189
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 3: not the same animal that you were trying to shoot

1190
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 3: back in September October, and so it's hard to get

1191
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 3: close to them. I mean, there's a one particular dough

1192
01:01:58,200 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 3: that I've been after, and the only reason I know

1193
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 3: it's the same deer is because she's got she's she's piebald,

1194
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:06,520
Speaker 3: and it's not mad. It's it's sort of subtle, but

1195
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 3: she's got a lot of additional white on her and

1196
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 3: ever since the day I said that, you know what,

1197
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 3: this year, I would like to shoot that deer because

1198
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 3: she's older, she's she's been there since I bought the place.

1199
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 3: It has been impossible to get anywhere near that deer

1200
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 3: because she's old, she's smart, and she's not the same

1201
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 3: deer that she was at the beginning of the season

1202
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 3: when I didn't want to shoot her.

1203
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 2: So, man, we need to do a podcast all about

1204
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 2: target does. How to get one target dough for the year. Yeah,

1205
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 2: it's hard something.

1206
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've seen that deer again. Going back to the

1207
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 3: buck example, we try to say mature bucks or they're

1208
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 3: just so smart and you can't see them. Well, that

1209
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 3: dough I have only seen on the hoof twice this

1210
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 3: entire season. Yeah, you know deer deer.

1211
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, they are. I think one of the

1212
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 2: reasons why it feels like maybe you can get away

1213
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 2: with a little bit more with does. Maybe not that

1214
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 2: you can get away with any individual dough, but it's

1215
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 2: just that in most cases there just are more of them.

1216
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 2: So there might be like that one mature buck, and

1217
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 2: if you spook that or educate that one mature buck,

1218
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 2: well then that's going to significantly change things. But you

1219
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:11,840
Speaker 2: might have ten DOS you're working with. Where I am,

1220
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 2: you might have forty DOS that you're working with, So

1221
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 2: you can afford to be more aggressive sometimes knowing that, yeah,

1222
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:19,520
Speaker 2: I'm going to educate five of them, but they'll be

1223
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 2: thirty five more or five more or whatever, you know,

1224
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 2: so it can be worth getting a little bit more aggressive,

1225
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 2: especially when you're getting towards the end of the season

1226
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 2: and you're running out of opportunities, you know, get after him,

1227
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:37,160
Speaker 2: because if you don't, it's definitely a zero. So that's

1228
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:40,720
Speaker 2: that's something to think about. What about you know, have

1229
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:44,280
Speaker 2: you have you done any aggressive wonky things with dose?

1230
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 2: Have you ever decoyed for dose? Do you ever call

1231
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 2: for does anything like that?

1232
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 3: I've decoyed Actually the first, uh, the first deer I

1233
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 3: shot this year responded to a decoy. Now the decoy

1234
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 3: wasn't for her, it was it was for a buck

1235
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:01,440
Speaker 3: I was after, but she responded to it. I had

1236
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 3: several dose respond to it, but I would consider favorably.

1237
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 3: But I can't say that I have ever specifically gone

1238
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 3: out and tried to decoy I mean, dough or just

1239
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:19,120
Speaker 3: they're so less tolerant in general, they they and then

1240
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:21,320
Speaker 3: they get into stomping and snorting, and then they can

1241
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:23,800
Speaker 3: they can blow up your whole hunt. But and so

1242
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 3: because of that with Dose, I just try to be

1243
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 3: where I think they're going to be and keep it

1244
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 3: simple that way. I think a lot, especially this time

1245
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 3: of year. I think an awful lot about my cover

1246
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:34,920
Speaker 3: in the tree and being able to get a shot

1247
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 3: off where the vegetation's gone, and so it's more or

1248
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:39,880
Speaker 3: less trying to get as close as I can without

1249
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,160
Speaker 3: them seeing me. At the same time. It sounds simple,

1250
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 3: but I try to keep it pretty simple this time

1251
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 3: of year.

1252
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I am the one thing I've thought about recently

1253
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 2: if I didn't have the firearms season that we do

1254
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 2: have in Michigan for does, if I was just bow hunting,

1255
01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 2: I bet you a dough feeding decoy could be pretty

1256
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 2: aren't effective for just like getting other deer to feel

1257
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 2: comfortable at least to getting close and check it out,

1258
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:07,080
Speaker 2: and then you know you better take a shot at

1259
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 2: them before they do get wonky and spooky about it.

1260
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 2: But something that has worked well for me in BO

1261
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 2: season has been doing a fun and distress call oh

1262
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 2: interesting to get does to close the distance I've had

1263
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 2: a number of deer that I've a number of doughs

1264
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 2: I've called into range that way, and I think you

1265
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 2: could do it. I'm sure you could do it during

1266
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,000
Speaker 2: firearms season. You just wouldn't need them to close as

1267
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 2: much distance. But the one risk in bo season is

1268
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 2: that you bring in a deer that's very on edge.

1269
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 2: It's like I can get does to run in to

1270
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:43,200
Speaker 2: me like they will run to you, But that dough

1271
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 2: is like on pins and needles. And so a few

1272
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 2: years ago I did this and I had a dough

1273
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 2: in range, but she jumped the string big time. But

1274
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:53,960
Speaker 2: I think you know, if you've got a dough out

1275
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 2: there at one hundred and fifty yards or something, and

1276
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:59,160
Speaker 2: you've got a three fifty or shotgun or something, and

1277
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:00,960
Speaker 2: you're thinking, man, sure would like it if she was

1278
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 2: within one hundred. I wish she was closer. Man, that's

1279
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 2: a pretty good tactic. You can get her to close

1280
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:09,120
Speaker 2: the distance to seventy or sixty and she's not going

1281
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:12,680
Speaker 2: to jump a bullet. That might be a thing to

1282
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 2: consider if you want to get a closer shot. And

1283
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 2: you know, it's not hard to make that kind of

1284
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 2: sound and to get a dough curious enough to come

1285
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 2: and check it out.

1286
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:24,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. Calling in the winter has worked well for me

1287
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 3: for bucks anyway, especially grunk calls, which you know, for

1288
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:30,720
Speaker 3: most of the year, I never have much success with

1289
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:32,360
Speaker 3: them at all, But I've had over the years a

1290
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 3: lot of success on bucks in the winter, And so,

1291
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 3: you know, I just think at that time, deer kind

1292
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:40,280
Speaker 3: of like they're hurting up a little bit more. They're

1293
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 3: kind of trying to find each other, and they are

1294
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 3: going to be curious maybe and that dough distress. Maybe

1295
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 3: that doe had lost her fond during the gun season,

1296
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 3: somebody shot it and she hears that wants to respond

1297
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:53,640
Speaker 3: to it. I'm thinking back to an old VHS, like

1298
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 3: back in the eighties. You might not even have been

1299
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:59,439
Speaker 3: born yet, but it's like an old Roger Raglan video

1300
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 3: where they were doing this dough in distress and these

1301
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:06,520
Speaker 3: doughs were like running in and it was blowing my mind.

1302
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 3: You know. Of course, I've never really done it since then,

1303
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 3: but I can certainly understand where it would.

1304
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 2: Work for you. Yeah, I mean I've seen something similar,

1305
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 2: so it's something to think about. So kind of along

1306
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 2: those lines, are there any other ideas tactics, best practices

1307
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:26,800
Speaker 2: that we should be thinking about when we're going out there,

1308
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:28,720
Speaker 2: either for the rest of this season trying to fill

1309
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:30,760
Speaker 2: a few more dough tags, or next year when we

1310
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 2: get started early, anything else to help us be more

1311
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 2: effective managing that dough population.

1312
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:39,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I really think mark, as much as

1313
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:42,760
Speaker 3: people were always looking for sort of that sexy new

1314
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 3: tactic or the silver bullet, there is never any substitute

1315
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 3: for effort, And so it's scouting. It's taking the time

1316
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:52,800
Speaker 3: to look through all of your camera photos and ask

1317
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:55,240
Speaker 3: yourself what they're telling you it's going on, and reading

1318
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:58,160
Speaker 3: what's going on on the ground, being aware of your

1319
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:01,800
Speaker 3: surroundings and hunting deer really kind of the old fashioned way,

1320
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 3: minus the technology that will always get you I think,

1321
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 3: closer to deer than just you know, well I'm just

1322
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 3: trying to kill a dough. Well maybe you should. You

1323
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:16,439
Speaker 3: should track during a year how many you might have

1324
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:19,360
Speaker 3: seen six or eight deer in a night. How many

1325
01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:21,360
Speaker 3: of those could you actually have shot with a bow.

1326
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 3: In particular, that number is not as big as you

1327
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:24,840
Speaker 3: probably think it is.

1328
01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:28,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, very true. It's it is no small feet to

1329
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 2: kill any deer with a bow. And to kill any

1330
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 2: deer with any kind of weapons still an accomplishment. And

1331
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:37,160
Speaker 2: I'm always reminded that this time of the year when

1332
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:38,559
Speaker 2: I'm when I'm trying to get a crack at an

1333
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:40,599
Speaker 2: antly list, and they make me feel like a fool

1334
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:45,360
Speaker 2: time and time again. So would you say, Nick, that

1335
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:49,080
Speaker 2: the motto that we came out of that summer this summer,

1336
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:51,840
Speaker 2: which was one more dough, is that still the model

1337
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 2: we should carry with us this next two three, four

1338
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:56,559
Speaker 2: weeks as we wrap up the season. Is that a

1339
01:08:56,600 --> 01:09:00,600
Speaker 2: good idea for most folks? Now exceptions, There are exceptions,

1340
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:03,840
Speaker 2: So look at your region, look at your area. But

1341
01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 2: for those of us in high deer density areas, is

1342
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 2: that something that would be worth encouraging everyone to try

1343
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 2: to get just one more dough at least this year?

1344
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:13,240
Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely, Because we we try not to look so

1345
01:09:13,320 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 3: much at year to year data as much as trends,

1346
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:19,200
Speaker 3: and so I don't like to look at that trend

1347
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:21,439
Speaker 3: going back to twenty fifteen where now all of a sudden,

1348
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:25,439
Speaker 3: we're shooting more bucks than we are. Does Okay, let's

1349
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:28,280
Speaker 3: go back and look at those trends where we talked

1350
01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:30,800
Speaker 3: more about shooting dos and the importance of it and

1351
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:34,360
Speaker 3: how hunters responded to that, and how we did eventually

1352
01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:36,639
Speaker 3: get to the point where we shot more does than

1353
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:40,680
Speaker 3: bucks in that harvest, you know, get let's get back

1354
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:43,680
Speaker 3: to that, and then let's maintain it. Like even on

1355
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:46,320
Speaker 3: our end, we can't get lazy and say and not

1356
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:48,920
Speaker 3: talk about the importance of shooting does as much as

1357
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:52,320
Speaker 3: we should, we probably shouldn't. If we get to the

1358
01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:53,960
Speaker 3: point where we have a meeting and say, hey, we

1359
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:56,720
Speaker 3: really need to talk about shooting does again, then we've

1360
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 3: probably missed opportunities along the way to talk about it.

1361
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:04,200
Speaker 3: And it's not anything you do intentional, but it's not

1362
01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 3: always the sexy headline, right, like, oh, there's that headline

1363
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:09,639
Speaker 3: about shooting more dos again. Yeah, But if you put

1364
01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:12,040
Speaker 3: it out there and people see it, it does make

1365
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:13,760
Speaker 3: an impact. And I think we all need to be

1366
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 3: committed to talking about that.

1367
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:17,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think along those lines, And I'm guilty

1368
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:21,240
Speaker 2: of this as much as anyone. It's so easy to

1369
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:24,719
Speaker 2: get really excited about and to celebrate, you know, getting

1370
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:28,120
Speaker 2: a crack at a buck. Right, I've posted a photo

1371
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:31,120
Speaker 2: of every buck I've shot this year. I've not posted

1372
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:34,280
Speaker 2: a photo every dough I've shot, I've not maybe celebrated

1373
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:37,280
Speaker 2: it externally as much, and I should do better that.

1374
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:39,840
Speaker 2: So I'm going to try to do a better job

1375
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:43,719
Speaker 2: of fully celebrating every one of these deer I certainly

1376
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:47,360
Speaker 2: appreciate them all, but maybe I'm not talking about as much,

1377
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 2: and that might be a missed opportunity to showcase, you know,

1378
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:54,600
Speaker 2: how much we appreciate these critters and that food and

1379
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 2: the meals and the experience and all that. So I'm

1380
01:10:57,160 --> 01:11:00,000
Speaker 2: going to make a little personal goal to share every

1381
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:02,320
Speaker 2: every one of the doughs that I will hopefully be

1382
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:04,519
Speaker 2: putting a tag on here before the end of the

1383
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:07,880
Speaker 2: season and celebrating those fully. And i'd encourage everybody else

1384
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:09,639
Speaker 2: listening to you know, if you're able to get out

1385
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:11,719
Speaker 2: there and get another dough or a few more, does

1386
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:16,000
Speaker 2: celebrate them, share it. Tag me in your dough photo

1387
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:18,439
Speaker 2: on Instagram. I'd love to see it. I'd love to

1388
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:21,519
Speaker 2: give you a virtual high five, and hopefully we can

1389
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:26,960
Speaker 2: all where appropriate, make make a positive difference with these

1390
01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:31,240
Speaker 2: these deer herds and get some great food along the way. So, Nick,

1391
01:11:31,439 --> 01:11:32,639
Speaker 2: anything else you want to add.

1392
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:34,880
Speaker 3: Before we wrap it up, No, and I appreciate you

1393
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:36,439
Speaker 3: saying that, I mean, you're you're someone that has a

1394
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:38,840
Speaker 3: lot of influence, and so people watch what you're doing,

1395
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:42,000
Speaker 3: and you know, I think that certainly will go a

1396
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:45,559
Speaker 3: long way. And yeah, and I take pictures of every

1397
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 3: every analytust deer I shoot. I post the pictures of

1398
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 3: all of them. I did a little ramt on one

1399
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:51,840
Speaker 3: of them from this year in the gun season, saying

1400
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:54,360
Speaker 3: I try to fill my dough tags and yeah, I

1401
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:56,160
Speaker 3: don't have the influence you do, but I know even

1402
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:58,200
Speaker 3: if ten people see that and a couple more people

1403
01:11:58,240 --> 01:12:01,000
Speaker 3: shoot a dough because of it, then it was worth it.

1404
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:04,280
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think that's wonderful advice and looking forward

1405
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:05,519
Speaker 3: to seeing those dough pics.

1406
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:08,960
Speaker 2: One last question for a nick yep. Where can folks

1407
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 2: go to learn more about the National Deer Association. Where

1408
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:14,719
Speaker 2: can they become members, get involved all that good stuff.

1409
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:18,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you appreciate that. So dear association dot com.

1410
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:21,559
Speaker 3: Just google Deer Association. I don't think people were using

1411
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:24,559
Speaker 3: URL so much anymore. And we have a big orange

1412
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:27,599
Speaker 3: join button right at the top, and we've got multiple levels.

1413
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:33,479
Speaker 3: I always point people to our so we have three levels.

1414
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:38,720
Speaker 3: We have our life membership, which typically are with us

1415
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:40,760
Speaker 3: for a long time to get to that level. But

1416
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:42,760
Speaker 3: we have a premium membership, which is where I want

1417
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:45,960
Speaker 3: to point people to because right now we're still running

1418
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,080
Speaker 3: us like thirty five bucks, and you get discounts at

1419
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:51,400
Speaker 3: a whole bunch of really great partners of ours on gear.

1420
01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 3: You're going to burn that thirty five bucks up really quick.

1421
01:12:54,439 --> 01:12:57,080
Speaker 3: But then we also have a no cost level where

1422
01:12:57,120 --> 01:12:59,759
Speaker 3: all we need from you is your address, your email

1423
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:01,920
Speaker 3: at and you can you can try us out for

1424
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:04,439
Speaker 3: free for a while and learn more about what we're

1425
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:06,760
Speaker 3: doing and maybe you'll you'll jump on that premium level.

1426
01:13:06,840 --> 01:13:09,479
Speaker 3: So thank you for that opportunity. Mark appreciate it.

1427
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, hey, thank you for what you guys do.

1428
01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:16,760
Speaker 2: For a long time now. I've followed the work of

1429
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:19,639
Speaker 2: the QTMA and now the NDA. I follow it closely.

1430
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:22,880
Speaker 2: I've appreciated it, I've benefited from I've learned so much

1431
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:26,040
Speaker 2: from the things you put out there, and I'm thankful

1432
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:28,000
Speaker 2: for the work you're doing. So thank you, Nick, thanks

1433
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:31,599
Speaker 2: to everyone on the crew. And uh yeah, I should

1434
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:33,320
Speaker 2: become a life member. I'm not a life member. I

1435
01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:36,679
Speaker 2: keep on re upping individually every year, and I guess

1436
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:39,160
Speaker 2: I just need to bite the bullet and get on

1437
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:41,479
Speaker 2: there so I don't need to remind myself every year

1438
01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:45,080
Speaker 2: to resubmit, so I'll be worth of Thedear Association dot Com.

1439
01:13:45,200 --> 01:13:47,639
Speaker 3: We'll give it. You get a rifle now. Life members

1440
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:50,439
Speaker 3: are getting a Bold Action rifle and either six point

1441
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:52,880
Speaker 3: five creed More or three oh eight. So there's never

1442
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:55,479
Speaker 3: better than when I became a life member. I got

1443
01:13:55,479 --> 01:13:58,760
Speaker 3: a cheap set of luggage, so I'd much rather had

1444
01:13:58,760 --> 01:13:59,240
Speaker 3: the rifle.

1445
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:03,599
Speaker 2: All right. Timing's good. Yeah, Well, thank you Nick, appreciate it,

1446
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:07,559
Speaker 2: Thank you Mark, all right, and that's gonna do it

1447
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:11,000
Speaker 2: for us today. Thanks for joining me. Appreciate you tuning

1448
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:13,719
Speaker 2: in and being a part of this community. I actually

1449
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:16,760
Speaker 2: just wrapped up two nights on the Meat Eater Live

1450
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:19,720
Speaker 2: podcast tour, got to meet a bunch of you, got

1451
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:22,960
Speaker 2: to hear your stories, and it just reminded me of

1452
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 2: why I do this. It's so much fun to get

1453
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:27,599
Speaker 2: to see the impact we're making, to hear from you,

1454
01:14:28,040 --> 01:14:30,840
Speaker 2: to hear how you know your hunts are going and

1455
01:14:30,880 --> 01:14:33,640
Speaker 2: they're improving, and you're having great experiences out there in

1456
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:37,160
Speaker 2: the field, and it just really brought a big, big

1457
01:14:37,200 --> 01:14:40,800
Speaker 2: smile to my face, and I'm just excited to keep

1458
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:44,599
Speaker 2: it going more and more episodes to come. There's more

1459
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:47,160
Speaker 2: season yet for many of us, so get out there,

1460
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:51,479
Speaker 2: enjoy these final weeks or months of the season, have fun,

1461
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:56,240
Speaker 2: and until next time, stay wired to Hunt.