WEBVTT - The Cost of Excellence 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.680 Good morning, Pieces and welcome to Okay f Daily with 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:20.000 Meet Your Girl Danielle Moody, recording once again from the Bunker, Folks, 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:24.200 I want to take a break on this Thursday from 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:29.200 the regular pace of what just seems like inexhaustive news 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:32.479 cycle this week. Everywhere that you look, there is something 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.519 that is wrong. Whether it is the action that is 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:38.600 being taken at the states against abortion now the latest 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:43.040 being Utah, whether it is you know, the recognition that 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:46.640 kids in K through twelve schools are having a really 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:52.239 difficult time getting back into what it means to be 0:00:52.440 --> 0:01:00.400 in school in a pandemic, and we're hearing reports about anxiety, depression, dress, 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:03.520 all of the things that we have been experiencing over 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:07.360 the last two years, our kids, the nation's kids have 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:12.320 been experiencing, and are we dealing with this. There is 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:14.640 just so much that I wanted to take a break, 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:18.600 just one day, to take a break and have a 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:24.319 really thoughtful conversation with the host of a podcast series, 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:30.000 a storytelling series called American Prodigies. And I speak today 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:34.280 with host Amia Rose Davis, who is an assistant professor 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.240 of History and African American Studies at U Penn and 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.480 She's also co host of a popular podcast that you 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.360 all may know because they've had over a million downloads, 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:45.679 which is called Burn It All Down, and it is 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:52.960 a feminist sports podcast, but in American prodigies. This series 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.440 really delves into this iteration. It is in now its 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:01.400 third season and what a mirror does if this season, 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:07.080 the third season is delve into black women in gymnastics, 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:11.320 and she goes through the eighties, the nineties, the early aughts, 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:14.920 and into now and what it has meant to be 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:20.600 a black gymnast right at all levels of competition. And 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:22.840 when we think about this, I, you know, we will 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:27.680 have a conversation where I will talk about the Naser case, 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:34.840 right Larry Naser, you know, the horrific, disgusting sexual predator 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:41.440 that acted as the doctor for elite gymnasts twenty thirty 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:51.240 years and sexually assaulted, raped, many of these well known 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:55.200 gymnasts that we have watched tumble and get gold medals, 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:58.960 and we have cheered on, not knowing silently the pain 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:03.320 that they were all dealing with until recently when the 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:08.480 case became national spotlight. The conversation that I have with 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:11.640 Amra is, you know, one of the things that has 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:16.920 always shook me is the pedestal that we put athletes 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:22.400 on and our thought around the sacrifices that they make 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:28.119 and what it takes to be and a prodigy one 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:32.720 of the greats. But what we have learned over some 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:39.080 very high profile folks like a Simone Biles and deciding 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:43.520 that she was not going to compete in some of 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:48.400 the events at the past Olympics because of what her 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:54.480 mental health. We've heard Naomi Osaka say the same thing 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:59.200 about her mental health and well being. And I think 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:03.760 that we for generations have loved to believe that these 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:08.280 athletes were, you know, superhuman because they can perform things 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:11.400 that we can only dream and imagine, but we never 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:14.440 really think about or have conversations about what they are 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:18.240 suffering through and what they are struggling through in order 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:24.000 to grab that metal. Many of these young prodigies that 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:29.039 Amira speaks to, who you know have now since have 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:35.560 grown right or coaching themselves, will share some of their 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.599 experiences about what it means, what it meant to be 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:44.000 the only black girl in an entire gym, how they 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:49.680 were judged differently based on their body structure, points deducted 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:54.120 because they have a little bit more, but than their 0:04:54.360 --> 0:05:00.880 white you know colleagues, how their hair or was treated, 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:04.640 how their bodies were treated, how they were talked about. 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:08.599 So not only are they having to work through some 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:13.160 of the most unbearable pains and strains, right that they 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:15.719 put their bodies to in order to be the best, 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:21.920 but the emotional scarring and the trauma. In this episode, 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.840 we will talk about food disorders, we will talk about 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:33.839 sexual assault and trauma, and you know, really delve into 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:39.400 this part of athleticism that we don't necessarily spend a 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.000 whole lot of time talking about. When we looked at 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:47.600 the makeup of the latest you know, women's US women's 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:53.200 Olympic team, we were marveling and applauding at the diversity 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:58.120 that was present. These young black girls, right who I 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:02.000 can remember growing up and knowing but just a few names, 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:07.040 right of these gymnasts that look like me, and now 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:12.000 you have an entire team, But you take into consideration 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.240 what they have fought against in order to get to 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.599 this place. And so in this eight part series that 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:24.320 Amira takes us through, she takes us through the stories 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:26.880 of what it's like to be inside these gyms, to 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:32.680 be inside these elite setups to come from, you know, 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:39.600 potentially low income families that are literally giving their children 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:45.279 away because here you have opportunity, you have possibility. I 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:47.880 often think about, you know, during the Olympics is when 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:52.120 the world's eyes are on sports and on the same 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:56.600 sports at the same time. And the stories, the little 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.160 vigneyettes that they do in the Olympics where you get 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:01.600 to know the people that are competing and you get 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:05.840 to know their families, and they are you know, wonderfully packaged, 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.479 you know, segments and vignettes that we all you know 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.680 that inspire right or bring us to tears because we 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:17.360 understand that those people that are performing on the mat, 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:21.679 on the beam on bars are doing so having faced 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:26.280 a lot of trauma tragedy in their own lives, and 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:30.240 it gives us this inspiration that we need to persevere 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:34.760 through our dark times. But there's a lot that is 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:40.960 left out about the treatment of young girls. I think 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:46.960 back to carry strug I think back to her performance 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:52.280 in nineteen ninety six on the vault, doing so knowing 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:58.760 that she was badly injured, but everything was relying on her, 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:03.960 the country, the team, and we all applauded as she 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:09.600 broke down in tears after she stuck that landing, basically 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:13.000 breaking her body so that America could have a medal. 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:16.240 And of course you can say, oh, Danielle, but she 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:19.200 worked her entire life for this, Yes, but I want 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.320 us to pause and think about what it means to 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:26.200 applaud at other people's pain and suffering. And then we 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:30.360 would find out later about the sexual abuse that these 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.720 girls were carrying with them and had carried with them 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:38.280 for years their entire lives because they didn't know any better. 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:44.160 So in this series, you know, I think that Amira 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:49.840 gives folks a behind the scenes pulling back the curtain 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:54.800 in a way beyond the inspirational vignatson. Yes, there is inspiration, 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:56.920 and she says, you know at the end of this 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.520 interview that there is also a lot of joy, but 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:03.200 there is also a lot of pain as well, And 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.160 I think that it is okay to talk about those 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:11.720 things because we are layered complex human beings and it's amazing. 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.720 It's a marvel at what the human body is capable 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.840 of doing when it is optimized, when it's met the 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:23.120 optimization along with just the inherent talent, and what can 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:27.200 happen when those things combine, but also thinking about the 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:31.960 cost of that, right, because there is a cost. And 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:35.720 while we can say, you know, nowadays, people you know 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:39.320 can capitalize and commodify in a way that they can 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:43.480 make financial gains, you know, if you reach the pinnacle, 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:48.679 But what about those that don't. Because for every Simone 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:54.280 Biles and Gabby Douglas and Dominique DAWs, there are thousands 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:57.480 of names that we will never know, but who have 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:02.400 put their bodies emotionally, spiritually, and physically through the ranger 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:07.520 in the hopes of getting on top of that Olympic stand. 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:11.960 And so, you know, it was really great to be 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:16.280 in conversation to kind of take a break, folks from 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:21.440 the news of the day and just hear a different story. 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.360 In the coming weeks on the show as well, I'm 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:31.000 going to start doing interviews with fiction authors right as 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:34.800 a way to kind of once again sprinkle in something 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.520 that is a bit different, something that is divergent from 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:42.800 our steady diet of our democracy crumbling, things that allow 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:46.040 us to just give our brains and our hearts some 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:51.040 rest so that we are able to continue fighting and 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:56.080 continue marching forward to where I'm not quite sure these 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.400 days I'm going to be honest with you. But what 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:02.720 I do know is that I want Woke AF to 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:06.720 continue being the voice of reason, continue to be a 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:10.960 space for us to connect with the truth right because 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:13.839 I think that that's getting harder and harder to decipher 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:18.720 from the nonsense, from the deep concern that I know 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:22.280 that all of you have because I share it. But 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:24.640 every once in a while, it is really important for 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:29.840 us to just take some respite, learn something different, stretch 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.319 our brains in a different way, or just sit back 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:36.360 and listen to a good story, read a good book, 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:41.280 listen to a good podcast that isn't about the news 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.680 of the day. So I hope that you all enjoy 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:51.120 my conversation with Amra, host of American Prodigies, which is 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:54.760 out now wherever you get your podcasts. So if after 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:58.320 this interview you want to check out American Prodigies or 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.720 the other show that she has che co host, Burn 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:04.760 It All Down, you should, right, because there should be 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:08.440 some balance into what we are consuming on a day 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:11.520 to day basis. So I hope that you enjoy this interview. 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:18.160 Coming up next, folks, I am very excited to welcome 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:22.319 to okate app daily for the very first time A mirror. 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.920 Rose Davis, who is Assistant Professor of History and African 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.559 American Studies at U Penn, is also the host of 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:35.560 the American Prodigies a Story, an eight week series look 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:40.319 at black girls in gymnastics, which is in its third season. 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.480 You're also a mirror the co host of the popular 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:48.839 podcast Burn It All Down, a feminist sports podcast. Let's 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:52.640 start with you are a person after my own heart, 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.840 which sounds like you have three and four jobs. I 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:57.680 would ask if you were like me, if you are 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:03.000 of Jamaican lineage, because that is our go to. Never 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:05.600 it is never enough to just do one thing, you 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:11.199 must do eight. So let's talk first about American Prodigies 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.760 and how this came, how this podcast came to be. 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:19.040 For sure, I'm not Jamaican, but we do have Caribbean lineage. 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:21.480 I feel like black women are always kind of primed 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:27.160 to have multiple hustles. So yeah, Prodigies has been a 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:29.480 very special project that I've done over the last year. 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:34.360 American Prodigies is a series on Blue Wire podcast Network. 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:37.120 The first season was hosted by Grant Wall about freddie Ado. 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:39.840 The second season was about hen Griffey Jr. And then 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.000 I had the great pleasure of hosting the third season. 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.000 And at first I was thinking about Gabby Douglas. I 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:48.360 was thinking about these black girl prodigies in sports. Obviously 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:51.679 I study the intersection of race, gender, sports and politics. 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.000 But as we started getting into it and I started 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:58.520 interviewing black women and black girls in gymnastics, I was like, 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:00.160 this sport is set up in a way that if 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:02.440 you're excelling at all in this sport, you're a prodigy 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:05.800 because you have to start so young. And we kind 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:08.679 of blew up the template for the seasons of American 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:12.880 Prodigies singular and made it American Prodigies plural to look 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:15.880 at black girless in gymnastics from the nineteen eighties and 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.600 nineteen nineties, the early adds up until today. And that's 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.760 what we've done over the last year. Shout out to 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:25.560 my story editor Jessica Luther and my producers Jessica Bodiford 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:28.280 and Kelly Hardcastle Jones. The four of us have really 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.760 been in the mud trying to tell these stories that 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:37.000 oftentimes are muted in our analysis of gymnastics or kind 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:40.520 of left off of discussions about black girls in sports 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:42.480 because it's like, oh, that's a white sport. There aren't 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:44.360 black girls there. And what we've uncovered is that they've 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:46.920 always been there, they continue to be there. And even 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:48.880 though right now it feels like black girls are having 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.760 a moment in gymnastics, it's been a long time coming. 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:56.960 You know, there has often you know, obviously through the 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:02.000 horrible scandal right UH in the sport of gymnastics that 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:07.800 really put I think a spotlight onto the treatment of 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:13.040 these girls, who is silenced, who is not? UM brought 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:19.120 into also the consideration of economic status right UM and 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:23.680 how these young girls that ages four, five six years 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:27.920 old are sent away right to UM to really hone 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:31.680 their talents and their skills. But then what we've learned 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:35.680 through the Naser cases then are open to such um 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:40.360 sexual violence and vulnerabilities, and so UM in in in 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:44.560 thinking about just how and why gymnastics has been in 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.720 UM in the spotlight for for a while in terms 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.240 of the news. What are some of the things that 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:55.960 you uncovered um in in the series that has to 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.800 do UM with kind of the the the violence that 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:03.560 we have learned about, the vulnerabilities and particularly how black 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:07.480 girls have been situated in particular in the midst of 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:09.880 all of this. That's a great question. I will issue 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:13.120 a trigger warning for listeners. I'm about to discuss sexual abuse, 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:19.200 disordered eating, emotional abuse as well. I think that's one 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:21.400 of the main questions I had going into this is 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:25.800 that we had been able culturally to unpack gymnastics as 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:29.080 a site of harm through the NASCAR case, through even 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:31.440 in the nineties, little girls in pretty boxes, or these 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:35.120 ideas that gymnastics is something that grinds you up. And 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:39.560 I was really stuck with thinking about that inevitable one 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.040 black girl in a gym who was dealing with all 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.440 of those things, and then also layering on racism on 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:46.800 top of that, And I said, I don't know if 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.640 we've ever asked what gymnastics looks like through the eyes 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:54.280 of black girls. And so that was really my starting point. 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.400 And a lot of what we uncovered has all of 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.720 these moments where it crashes in to stories that we 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:04.240 know about gymnastics, but there's just like an added layer 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:07.760 that they articulate. And so Betty o'kino, who was a 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:12.320 story gym gymnast, a trailblazer in the early nineties, went 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:15.080 to the Barcelona Olympics in ninety two. She was also 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:19.240 one of the first students of the Coroles, which you know, 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:23.080 they like ran all of American gymnastics. And when I 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:25.400 was talking to her, for instance, like she was talking 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:27.680 about disordered eating, she was telling me where she hid 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:32.640 her food. She was talking about how she was broken down, right, 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:37.040 how she would be training something that she knew she 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:39.800 couldn't do, or that she knew she was too tired 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:42.320 to do, and she would be told to do it 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.440 to the point of injury. Right, the amount of injuries 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.320 people were recapping. And I asked her, you know, she 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:50.000 talked about how she felt like she had no voice, 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:52.160 she couldn't speak up. And I said, like, what would 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:53.800 the consequence be? And she was like, well, it wasn't 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.120 just that I was tall, or that I was brown 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:58.359 or anything like that. And it's not just that you'd 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:01.520 be a sassy gymnast, but you'd be a sassy black gymnast. 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:04.760 You would be, you know, endorsing all the stereotypes that 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:07.080 they held about you before you walked in the door. 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:10.200 And the thing about Betty is like Betty was half 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:12.960 Romanian and so she was in the gym with the 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:15.840 Coroles while they were talking mess about all of the 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:18.760 gymnasts in the gym, calling them names, talking about their 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.080 bodies in Romanian. But she could understand, and they just 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:24.399 didn't think she could because she's black, and they didn't 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.000 expect the black girl just understand Romanian. But she heard 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:32.760 firsthand right that same level of kind of scrutiny. And 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.720 so we have a point in our conversation that's Betty's 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.720 episode three. Our conversation really talks about the story of 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:43.760 injury and abuse in that way, and she talks about 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:47.320 how she when the NASCAR case broke her, even when 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:50.720 they started scrutinizing what happened at the Coroles ranch where 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.280 everybody had to go train for the national team. She 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.760 there's clips of her on Oprah like defending them, and 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.399 so I had the pleasure of kind of talking to 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.760 her and really unpacking her family, her childhood, and I 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:06.280 asked her, it feels like the way that the ranch 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:08.920 was run, it was very similar to how your household 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.640 was run. So I can see as a teenager being 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.520 asked to dismiss all of that was really putting you 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:17.600 in a position where you had to reflect on childhood trauma. 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:21.560 And you know, and she talked about her long journey 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:24.280 to be able to name abuse as abuse, and I 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:27.359 think that's what we see a lot of times in 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:30.280 the podcast to other stories that come up mirror that. 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:35.120 Simone Biles's story, for instance, is all about her as 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.439 a survivor. I talked to her mom, Nellie Biles, for 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:41.080 that episode, and she's talking about those childs and tribulations 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.200 and what it means to speak out. Or Tasha Swiker, 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:48.480 black woman who was a victim of Nasser and then 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:51.919 got her JD and was actually a part of the 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.000 legal team that delivered a settlement to all survivors. So 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:57.800 black girls are in and of this history, and they 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:03.480 articulate with pinpoint accuracy how race intersects and and kind 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:08.080 of expands these traumas that they were unpacking in the sport, 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:14.280 alongside disordered eating and body scrutiny and you know, exploitation, etc. 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:20.800 You know, when you bring up UM, the eating disorders, 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:24.000 UM in particular, I kind of want to delve into 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.720 UM because we know that black women in sports, regardless 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:30.440 of the sport that you're in, but particularly in gymnastics, 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:36.800 right your frame um is looked at right in it 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:40.080 in a certain way. We see this as a culture 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:45.000 through the experiences, and how Serena Williams and Venus Williams 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:49.120 have talked about, um, you know, being able to move 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:55.800 through that outward scrutiny, the just bold racism um and 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:59.080 so our bodies being too muscular to this to that, 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:04.280 too big to blah blah blah. How did that? Um? How? 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:10.159 How how was it that they saw themselves their bodies 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:16.800 in relation to their peers? Yea, And how did I 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:21.280 if you're in a space where everything is seemed to 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:26.040 be normal, right, the hiding of food, the restriction of food, 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:30.520 the over exertion in terms of of of physical prowess, 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:33.400 Like if all of these things are considered normal when 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:37.760 you're in this kind of um compound, right, the ranch 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:41.560 and these training facilities, how do you know what abuse 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:44.960 is exactly right? Yeah? And I think like this is 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:47.280 one of the things that was really great about layering 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:50.960 experiences because you could see that some families approaches. Right. 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:56.439 There's an episode episode six follows na Denis and Sophinadjes 0:21:56.600 --> 0:21:59.320 is two of the earliest viral sensations, those videos you 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:01.720 always see on your timeline. But we also talked to 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:04.200 both of their mothers, and their mothers had very different 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:07.359 tactics for attempting to keep their children safe in this sport, 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:11.199 and so Fina de Jesus's mother, Maria always yanked her 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:13.840 out of the sport. Right. She was constantly like, that 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:16.719 was her style of doing it is affirming like you 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:18.840 that you knew how to lay your baby hairs when 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:21.480 you went to the ranch in Houston, right, that you 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:25.880 knew how to retain yourself in these spaces. And other 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:28.920 people were like, no, we need to play by the rules. 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:31.480 We need to do this because that's how you're going 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:34.960 to stay safe. And what we see is that neither 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:38.280 really matter. When we talk to the gymnast, they talk 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:41.840 about their hair right all through through every gymnast in 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:46.080 every decade I talked to, right are talking about the 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:49.159 politics of their hair being policed in these spaces. The 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:51.560 first episode of the season is a conversation I had 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:54.240 with Jordan Chiles, and I talked to her like two 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:56.440 weeks when she came back from Tokyo from the Olympics, 0:22:56.720 --> 0:22:58.400 and she told me a story she had never told 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:01.760 anybody before about her early cutting her hair right and 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:04.840 thinking about all of these ways that they received that 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:07.920 message that your hair is out of bounds here. Right. 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:11.520 We talk to people who are trying to reform gymnastics 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:14.840 judging because gymnastics, like figures getting it's an aesthetic sport, 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:17.960 which is why figure and frame come into so much 0:23:18.000 --> 0:23:21.840 focus on top of like usual, because it's actually how 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:24.040 they're judged as well. And so we talked to a 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:27.479 former gymnast, Jasmine Swinnagan, who's one of three black judges 0:23:27.520 --> 0:23:30.560 in the entire state of Minnesota and is doing work 0:23:30.600 --> 0:23:33.159 to root out bias and judging. And one of the 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:36.159 things she was telling us is, like, it's so common 0:23:36.200 --> 0:23:39.800 to see your points be deducted because the template they're 0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:44.480 using to judge, say, split legs can't don't you know, 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:47.880 doesn't account for all that, but right, like doesn't account 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:51.720 for fuller figures. Judges who are used to like what 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:54.800 appointed foot needs to look like are taught about like 0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:57.520 looking where the color of the foot is. And she 0:23:57.560 --> 0:23:59.680 had to literally bring in a diagram of a black 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:03.560 foot to say, don't deduct points because you're seeing two colors, 0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:07.280 because our feet just look like that, right, And so 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:11.320 thinking about not only the athletes and the sport of gymnastics, 0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:15.119 but all of these other things that factor in and 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:17.960 are constantly giving you messages that your body's wrong, your 0:24:18.000 --> 0:24:21.160 hair is wrong, your feet are like all of this stuff, 0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:24.960 and it lives on them. They recount it, they talk 0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:27.680 about it, and they talk about also how we're combating it. 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:31.360 So one of my favorite episodes, the last episode episode, 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:35.000 it is really about an organization called Brown Girls Do Gymnastics, 0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:39.119 who has been working to provide spaces that are holistic 0:24:39.359 --> 0:24:41.879 for these black girls. They had we went to a 0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:44.760 meet and grambling where the coaches were black, and the 0:24:44.800 --> 0:24:47.400 athletic trainers were black, and the judges were black, and 0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:51.399 they had wacondo leotards, and they had meetings with parents 0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:56.439 about how to navigate predominantly white gym spaces. They've been 0:24:56.480 --> 0:25:00.399 working with HBCUs to develop gymnastics in those programs because, 0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:04.520 as you mentioned earlier, the long history of American gymnastics 0:25:04.520 --> 0:25:07.320 has required you to be in certain spaces that are 0:25:07.440 --> 0:25:11.560 very exclusive, and those spaces are predominantly white, and there's 0:25:11.600 --> 0:25:15.200 a practice of not just enrolling in it and paying 0:25:15.200 --> 0:25:18.040 in it, but literally needing to give your child two 0:25:18.080 --> 0:25:21.280 coaches who supposedly have their best interest in mind to 0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:25.720 this best gym in Iowa, right, like all of these places. 0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:28.760 And I think that you can see the long lasting 0:25:28.800 --> 0:25:31.320 trauma of that really being articulated through some of the 0:25:31.359 --> 0:25:36.199 stories we tell. You know, I think about, now, what 0:25:36.320 --> 0:25:40.560 are some of the differences where you can see and 0:25:40.600 --> 0:25:44.200 I say differences in the way of progress? Right, So 0:25:44.280 --> 0:25:47.119 you have gone through the decades, like you're saying, you know, 0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:50.399 going from the eighties to the earl you know, to 0:25:50.600 --> 0:25:56.600 the early as to now, what are what are the 0:25:56.640 --> 0:26:00.840 indicators that you've seen of progress? Yeah, other other than 0:26:01.000 --> 0:26:05.960 us having a team the Olympic team which looked I 0:26:06.000 --> 0:26:09.879 mean ten year old me who entered a gymnastics gym 0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:12.639 for the first time because I used to watch Nadia 0:26:14.119 --> 0:26:18.399