1 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: Good morning, Pieces and welcome to Okay f Daily with 2 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: Meet Your Girl Danielle Moody, recording once again from the Bunker, Folks, 3 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: I want to take a break on this Thursday from 4 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: the regular pace of what just seems like inexhaustive news 5 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: cycle this week. Everywhere that you look, there is something 6 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: that is wrong. Whether it is the action that is 7 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: being taken at the states against abortion now the latest 8 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: being Utah, whether it is you know, the recognition that 9 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: kids in K through twelve schools are having a really 10 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 1: difficult time getting back into what it means to be 11 00:00:52,440 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: in school in a pandemic, and we're hearing reports about anxiety, depression, dress, 12 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: all of the things that we have been experiencing over 13 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: the last two years, our kids, the nation's kids have 14 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: been experiencing, and are we dealing with this. There is 15 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: just so much that I wanted to take a break, 16 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: just one day, to take a break and have a 17 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: really thoughtful conversation with the host of a podcast series, 18 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: a storytelling series called American Prodigies. And I speak today 19 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: with host Amia Rose Davis, who is an assistant professor 20 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: of History and African American Studies at U Penn and 21 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: She's also co host of a popular podcast that you 22 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: all may know because they've had over a million downloads, 23 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: which is called Burn It All Down, and it is 24 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: a feminist sports podcast, but in American prodigies. This series 25 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: really delves into this iteration. It is in now its 26 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: third season and what a mirror does if this season, 27 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: the third season is delve into black women in gymnastics, 28 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: and she goes through the eighties, the nineties, the early aughts, 29 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: and into now and what it has meant to be 30 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: a black gymnast right at all levels of competition. And 31 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: when we think about this, I, you know, we will 32 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: have a conversation where I will talk about the Naser case, 33 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: right Larry Naser, you know, the horrific, disgusting sexual predator 34 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: that acted as the doctor for elite gymnasts twenty thirty 35 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: years and sexually assaulted, raped, many of these well known 36 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: gymnasts that we have watched tumble and get gold medals, 37 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: and we have cheered on, not knowing silently the pain 38 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: that they were all dealing with until recently when the 39 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: case became national spotlight. The conversation that I have with 40 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: Amra is, you know, one of the things that has 41 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: always shook me is the pedestal that we put athletes 42 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: on and our thought around the sacrifices that they make 43 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:28,119 Speaker 1: and what it takes to be and a prodigy one 44 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: of the greats. But what we have learned over some 45 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: very high profile folks like a Simone Biles and deciding 46 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: that she was not going to compete in some of 47 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: the events at the past Olympics because of what her 48 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: mental health. We've heard Naomi Osaka say the same thing 49 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: about her mental health and well being. And I think 50 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: that we for generations have loved to believe that these 51 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: athletes were, you know, superhuman because they can perform things 52 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: that we can only dream and imagine, but we never 53 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: really think about or have conversations about what they are 54 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: suffering through and what they are struggling through in order 55 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: to grab that metal. Many of these young prodigies that 56 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: Amira speaks to, who you know have now since have 57 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: grown right or coaching themselves, will share some of their 58 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: experiences about what it means, what it meant to be 59 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: the only black girl in an entire gym, how they 60 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: were judged differently based on their body structure, points deducted 61 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: because they have a little bit more, but than their 62 00:04:54,360 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: white you know colleagues, how their hair or was treated, 63 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: how their bodies were treated, how they were talked about. 64 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: So not only are they having to work through some 65 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: of the most unbearable pains and strains, right that they 66 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: put their bodies to in order to be the best, 67 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: but the emotional scarring and the trauma. In this episode, 68 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: we will talk about food disorders, we will talk about 69 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: sexual assault and trauma, and you know, really delve into 70 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: this part of athleticism that we don't necessarily spend a 71 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: whole lot of time talking about. When we looked at 72 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: the makeup of the latest you know, women's US women's 73 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: Olympic team, we were marveling and applauding at the diversity 74 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: that was present. These young black girls, right who I 75 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: can remember growing up and knowing but just a few names, 76 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: right of these gymnasts that look like me, and now 77 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: you have an entire team, But you take into consideration 78 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: what they have fought against in order to get to 79 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: this place. And so in this eight part series that 80 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: Amira takes us through, she takes us through the stories 81 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: of what it's like to be inside these gyms, to 82 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: be inside these elite setups to come from, you know, 83 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: potentially low income families that are literally giving their children 84 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: away because here you have opportunity, you have possibility. I 85 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: often think about, you know, during the Olympics is when 86 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: the world's eyes are on sports and on the same 87 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: sports at the same time. And the stories, the little 88 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: vigneyettes that they do in the Olympics where you get 89 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: to know the people that are competing and you get 90 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: to know their families, and they are you know, wonderfully packaged, 91 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: you know, segments and vignettes that we all you know 92 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: that inspire right or bring us to tears because we 93 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: understand that those people that are performing on the mat, 94 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,679 Speaker 1: on the beam on bars are doing so having faced 95 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: a lot of trauma tragedy in their own lives, and 96 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: it gives us this inspiration that we need to persevere 97 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: through our dark times. But there's a lot that is 98 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: left out about the treatment of young girls. I think 99 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: back to carry strug I think back to her performance 100 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety six on the vault, doing so knowing 101 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: that she was badly injured, but everything was relying on her, 102 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: the country, the team, and we all applauded as she 103 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: broke down in tears after she stuck that landing, basically 104 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: breaking her body so that America could have a medal. 105 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: And of course you can say, oh, Danielle, but she 106 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: worked her entire life for this, Yes, but I want 107 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: us to pause and think about what it means to 108 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: applaud at other people's pain and suffering. And then we 109 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: would find out later about the sexual abuse that these 110 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: girls were carrying with them and had carried with them 111 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: for years their entire lives because they didn't know any better. 112 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: So in this series, you know, I think that Amira 113 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: gives folks a behind the scenes pulling back the curtain 114 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: in a way beyond the inspirational vignatson. Yes, there is inspiration, 115 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: and she says, you know at the end of this 116 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: interview that there is also a lot of joy, but 117 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: there is also a lot of pain as well, And 118 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: I think that it is okay to talk about those 119 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: things because we are layered complex human beings and it's amazing. 120 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: It's a marvel at what the human body is capable 121 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: of doing when it is optimized, when it's met the 122 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: optimization along with just the inherent talent, and what can 123 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: happen when those things combine, but also thinking about the 124 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: cost of that, right, because there is a cost. And 125 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: while we can say, you know, nowadays, people you know 126 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: can capitalize and commodify in a way that they can 127 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: make financial gains, you know, if you reach the pinnacle, 128 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: But what about those that don't. Because for every Simone 129 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: Biles and Gabby Douglas and Dominique DAWs, there are thousands 130 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: of names that we will never know, but who have 131 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: put their bodies emotionally, spiritually, and physically through the ranger 132 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: in the hopes of getting on top of that Olympic stand. 133 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: And so, you know, it was really great to be 134 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: in conversation to kind of take a break, folks from 135 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: the news of the day and just hear a different story. 136 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: In the coming weeks on the show as well, I'm 137 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: going to start doing interviews with fiction authors right as 138 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: a way to kind of once again sprinkle in something 139 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: that is a bit different, something that is divergent from 140 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: our steady diet of our democracy crumbling, things that allow 141 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: us to just give our brains and our hearts some 142 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: rest so that we are able to continue fighting and 143 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: continue marching forward to where I'm not quite sure these 144 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: days I'm going to be honest with you. But what 145 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: I do know is that I want Woke AF to 146 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: continue being the voice of reason, continue to be a 147 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: space for us to connect with the truth right because 148 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: I think that that's getting harder and harder to decipher 149 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: from the nonsense, from the deep concern that I know 150 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: that all of you have because I share it. But 151 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: every once in a while, it is really important for 152 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: us to just take some respite, learn something different, stretch 153 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: our brains in a different way, or just sit back 154 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: and listen to a good story, read a good book, 155 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: listen to a good podcast that isn't about the news 156 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: of the day. So I hope that you all enjoy 157 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: my conversation with Amra, host of American Prodigies, which is 158 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: out now wherever you get your podcasts. So if after 159 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: this interview you want to check out American Prodigies or 160 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: the other show that she has che co host, Burn 161 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: It All Down, you should, right, because there should be 162 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: some balance into what we are consuming on a day 163 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: to day basis. So I hope that you enjoy this interview. 164 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: Coming up next, folks, I am very excited to welcome 165 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: to okate app daily for the very first time A mirror. 166 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: Rose Davis, who is Assistant Professor of History and African 167 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 1: American Studies at U Penn, is also the host of 168 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: the American Prodigies a Story, an eight week series look 169 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 1: at black girls in gymnastics, which is in its third season. 170 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: You're also a mirror the co host of the popular 171 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: podcast Burn It All Down, a feminist sports podcast. Let's 172 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: start with you are a person after my own heart, 173 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: which sounds like you have three and four jobs. I 174 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: would ask if you were like me, if you are 175 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: of Jamaican lineage, because that is our go to. Never 176 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: it is never enough to just do one thing, you 177 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 1: must do eight. So let's talk first about American Prodigies 178 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: and how this came, how this podcast came to be. 179 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: For sure, I'm not Jamaican, but we do have Caribbean lineage. 180 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: I feel like black women are always kind of primed 181 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: to have multiple hustles. So yeah, Prodigies has been a 182 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: very special project that I've done over the last year. 183 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: American Prodigies is a series on Blue Wire podcast Network. 184 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: The first season was hosted by Grant Wall about freddie Ado. 185 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: The second season was about hen Griffey Jr. And then 186 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: I had the great pleasure of hosting the third season. 187 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: And at first I was thinking about Gabby Douglas. I 188 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: was thinking about these black girl prodigies in sports. Obviously 189 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: I study the intersection of race, gender, sports and politics. 190 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: But as we started getting into it and I started 191 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: interviewing black women and black girls in gymnastics, I was like, 192 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: this sport is set up in a way that if 193 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: you're excelling at all in this sport, you're a prodigy 194 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: because you have to start so young. And we kind 195 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: of blew up the template for the seasons of American 196 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: Prodigies singular and made it American Prodigies plural to look 197 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: at black girless in gymnastics from the nineteen eighties and 198 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, the early adds up until today. And that's 199 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: what we've done over the last year. Shout out to 200 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: my story editor Jessica Luther and my producers Jessica Bodiford 201 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: and Kelly Hardcastle Jones. The four of us have really 202 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: been in the mud trying to tell these stories that 203 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: oftentimes are muted in our analysis of gymnastics or kind 204 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: of left off of discussions about black girls in sports 205 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: because it's like, oh, that's a white sport. There aren't 206 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: black girls there. And what we've uncovered is that they've 207 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: always been there, they continue to be there. And even 208 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: though right now it feels like black girls are having 209 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: a moment in gymnastics, it's been a long time coming. 210 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: You know, there has often you know, obviously through the 211 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: horrible scandal right UH in the sport of gymnastics that 212 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: really put I think a spotlight onto the treatment of 213 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: these girls, who is silenced, who is not? UM brought 214 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: into also the consideration of economic status right UM and 215 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: how these young girls that ages four, five six years 216 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: old are sent away right to UM to really hone 217 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: their talents and their skills. But then what we've learned 218 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: through the Naser cases then are open to such um 219 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: sexual violence and vulnerabilities, and so UM in in in 220 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: thinking about just how and why gymnastics has been in 221 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: UM in the spotlight for for a while in terms 222 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: of the news. What are some of the things that 223 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: you uncovered um in in the series that has to 224 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: do UM with kind of the the the violence that 225 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: we have learned about, the vulnerabilities and particularly how black 226 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: girls have been situated in particular in the midst of 227 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: all of this. That's a great question. I will issue 228 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: a trigger warning for listeners. I'm about to discuss sexual abuse, 229 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: disordered eating, emotional abuse as well. I think that's one 230 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: of the main questions I had going into this is 231 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: that we had been able culturally to unpack gymnastics as 232 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: a site of harm through the NASCAR case, through even 233 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: in the nineties, little girls in pretty boxes, or these 234 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: ideas that gymnastics is something that grinds you up. And 235 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: I was really stuck with thinking about that inevitable one 236 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: black girl in a gym who was dealing with all 237 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: of those things, and then also layering on racism on 238 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: top of that, And I said, I don't know if 239 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: we've ever asked what gymnastics looks like through the eyes 240 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: of black girls. And so that was really my starting point. 241 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: And a lot of what we uncovered has all of 242 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: these moments where it crashes in to stories that we 243 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: know about gymnastics, but there's just like an added layer 244 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: that they articulate. And so Betty o'kino, who was a 245 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: story gym gymnast, a trailblazer in the early nineties, went 246 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: to the Barcelona Olympics in ninety two. She was also 247 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: one of the first students of the Coroles, which you know, 248 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: they like ran all of American gymnastics. And when I 249 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 1: was talking to her, for instance, like she was talking 250 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: about disordered eating, she was telling me where she hid 251 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 1: her food. She was talking about how she was broken down, right, 252 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: how she would be training something that she knew she 253 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: couldn't do, or that she knew she was too tired 254 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: to do, and she would be told to do it 255 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: to the point of injury. Right, the amount of injuries 256 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: people were recapping. And I asked her, you know, she 257 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: talked about how she felt like she had no voice, 258 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 1: she couldn't speak up. And I said, like, what would 259 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: the consequence be? And she was like, well, it wasn't 260 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: just that I was tall, or that I was brown 261 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: or anything like that. And it's not just that you'd 262 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: be a sassy gymnast, but you'd be a sassy black gymnast. 263 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: You would be, you know, endorsing all the stereotypes that 264 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: they held about you before you walked in the door. 265 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: And the thing about Betty is like Betty was half 266 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: Romanian and so she was in the gym with the 267 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: Coroles while they were talking mess about all of the 268 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: gymnasts in the gym, calling them names, talking about their 269 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: bodies in Romanian. But she could understand, and they just 270 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: didn't think she could because she's black, and they didn't 271 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: expect the black girl just understand Romanian. But she heard 272 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: firsthand right that same level of kind of scrutiny. And 273 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: so we have a point in our conversation that's Betty's 274 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: episode three. Our conversation really talks about the story of 275 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: injury and abuse in that way, and she talks about 276 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: how she when the NASCAR case broke her, even when 277 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: they started scrutinizing what happened at the Coroles ranch where 278 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: everybody had to go train for the national team. She 279 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: there's clips of her on Oprah like defending them, and 280 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: so I had the pleasure of kind of talking to 281 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: her and really unpacking her family, her childhood, and I 282 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: asked her, it feels like the way that the ranch 283 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: was run, it was very similar to how your household 284 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: was run. So I can see as a teenager being 285 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: asked to dismiss all of that was really putting you 286 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: in a position where you had to reflect on childhood trauma. 287 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: And you know, and she talked about her long journey 288 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: to be able to name abuse as abuse, and I 289 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: think that's what we see a lot of times in 290 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: the podcast to other stories that come up mirror that. 291 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:35,120 Speaker 1: Simone Biles's story, for instance, is all about her as 292 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 1: a survivor. I talked to her mom, Nellie Biles, for 293 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: that episode, and she's talking about those childs and tribulations 294 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: and what it means to speak out. Or Tasha Swiker, 295 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: black woman who was a victim of Nasser and then 296 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 1: got her JD and was actually a part of the 297 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: legal team that delivered a settlement to all survivors. So 298 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: black girls are in and of this history, and they 299 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: articulate with pinpoint accuracy how race intersects and and kind 300 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: of expands these traumas that they were unpacking in the sport, 301 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: alongside disordered eating and body scrutiny and you know, exploitation, etc. 302 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: You know, when you bring up UM, the eating disorders, 303 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: UM in particular, I kind of want to delve into 304 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: UM because we know that black women in sports, regardless 305 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: of the sport that you're in, but particularly in gymnastics, 306 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: right your frame um is looked at right in it 307 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: in a certain way. We see this as a culture 308 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: through the experiences, and how Serena Williams and Venus Williams 309 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 1: have talked about, um, you know, being able to move 310 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: through that outward scrutiny, the just bold racism um and 311 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: so our bodies being too muscular to this to that, 312 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: too big to blah blah blah. How did that? Um? How? 313 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: How how was it that they saw themselves their bodies 314 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: in relation to their peers? Yea, And how did I 315 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: if you're in a space where everything is seemed to 316 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: be normal, right, the hiding of food, the restriction of food, 317 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: the over exertion in terms of of of physical prowess, 318 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 1: Like if all of these things are considered normal when 319 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: you're in this kind of um compound, right, the ranch 320 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: and these training facilities, how do you know what abuse 321 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: is exactly right? Yeah? And I think like this is 322 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: one of the things that was really great about layering 323 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 1: experiences because you could see that some families approaches. Right. 324 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: There's an episode episode six follows na Denis and Sophinadjes 325 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: is two of the earliest viral sensations, those videos you 326 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: always see on your timeline. But we also talked to 327 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: both of their mothers, and their mothers had very different 328 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: tactics for attempting to keep their children safe in this sport, 329 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 1: and so Fina de Jesus's mother, Maria always yanked her 330 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: out of the sport. Right. She was constantly like, that 331 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,719 Speaker 1: was her style of doing it is affirming like you 332 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: that you knew how to lay your baby hairs when 333 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: you went to the ranch in Houston, right, that you 334 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: knew how to retain yourself in these spaces. And other 335 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: people were like, no, we need to play by the rules. 336 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: We need to do this because that's how you're going 337 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: to stay safe. And what we see is that neither 338 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: really matter. When we talk to the gymnast, they talk 339 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: about their hair right all through through every gymnast in 340 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: every decade I talked to, right are talking about the 341 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 1: politics of their hair being policed in these spaces. The 342 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: first episode of the season is a conversation I had 343 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: with Jordan Chiles, and I talked to her like two 344 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: weeks when she came back from Tokyo from the Olympics, 345 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 1: and she told me a story she had never told 346 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: anybody before about her early cutting her hair right and 347 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: thinking about all of these ways that they received that 348 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: message that your hair is out of bounds here. Right. 349 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: We talk to people who are trying to reform gymnastics 350 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: judging because gymnastics, like figures getting it's an aesthetic sport, 351 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: which is why figure and frame come into so much 352 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: focus on top of like usual, because it's actually how 353 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: they're judged as well. And so we talked to a 354 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,479 Speaker 1: former gymnast, Jasmine Swinnagan, who's one of three black judges 355 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: in the entire state of Minnesota and is doing work 356 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: to root out bias and judging. And one of the 357 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: things she was telling us is, like, it's so common 358 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: to see your points be deducted because the template they're 359 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: using to judge, say, split legs can't don't you know, 360 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 1: doesn't account for all that, but right, like doesn't account 361 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: for fuller figures. Judges who are used to like what 362 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: appointed foot needs to look like are taught about like 363 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: looking where the color of the foot is. And she 364 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: had to literally bring in a diagram of a black 365 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: foot to say, don't deduct points because you're seeing two colors, 366 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: because our feet just look like that, right, And so 367 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: thinking about not only the athletes and the sport of gymnastics, 368 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: but all of these other things that factor in and 369 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: are constantly giving you messages that your body's wrong, your 370 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 1: hair is wrong, your feet are like all of this stuff, 371 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: and it lives on them. They recount it, they talk 372 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: about it, and they talk about also how we're combating it. 373 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 1: So one of my favorite episodes, the last episode episode, 374 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: it is really about an organization called Brown Girls Do Gymnastics, 375 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: who has been working to provide spaces that are holistic 376 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: for these black girls. They had we went to a 377 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: meet and grambling where the coaches were black, and the 378 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: athletic trainers were black, and the judges were black, and 379 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: they had wacondo leotards, and they had meetings with parents 380 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 1: about how to navigate predominantly white gym spaces. They've been 381 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: working with HBCUs to develop gymnastics in those programs because, 382 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: as you mentioned earlier, the long history of American gymnastics 383 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: has required you to be in certain spaces that are 384 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: very exclusive, and those spaces are predominantly white, and there's 385 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: a practice of not just enrolling in it and paying 386 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: in it, but literally needing to give your child two 387 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: coaches who supposedly have their best interest in mind to 388 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: this best gym in Iowa, right, like all of these places. 389 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: And I think that you can see the long lasting 390 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: trauma of that really being articulated through some of the 391 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:36,199 Speaker 1: stories we tell. You know, I think about, now, what 392 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: are some of the differences where you can see and 393 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: I say differences in the way of progress? Right, So 394 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: you have gone through the decades, like you're saying, you know, 395 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: going from the eighties to the earl you know, to 396 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: the early as to now, what are what are the 397 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: indicators that you've seen of progress? Yeah, other other than 398 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: us having a team the Olympic team which looked I 399 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: mean ten year old me who entered a gymnastics gym 400 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: for the first time because I used to watch Nadia 401 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: story on repeat as a as a child and so 402 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: wanted to get into get into gymnastics at that age. 403 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 1: What are the markers of progress? For sure? I mean 404 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: start with what you just said, the fact that there's 405 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: more visibility, right, And but what we try to really 406 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: push on is just because there's visibility at the elite 407 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: level does not mean everything's good at levels two, three, 408 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: four or five six. I think the work that Brown 409 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: Girls is doing is really UM important. Actually, as we 410 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 1: were finishing up that episode, Fisk announced the first ever 411 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: women's gymnastics program at at hbcu UM. The coach Connie 412 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: Traversey that they high was the first black gymnast to 413 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: everyone the NCAA All Around title back in the late 414 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: eighties early nineties. She's now the head coach at FIST. 415 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: So we talk about that. That's really kind of poetic 416 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: for me to see happening. I talked to all these 417 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: viral sensations, you know, Hallie and Sophia and Nia, and 418 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: the way that they build a space for themselves within 419 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: an institution, away from the elite space, but still called 420 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: out stuff they were seeing at the collegiate level and 421 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 1: also figured out what it looked like for them right 422 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: to take ownership of how they love to interact with 423 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: the sport. So Hallie's a choreographer, and Nia is like 424 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: at the met Gala doing gymnastics, and Sophia's in Gatorade commercials, 425 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: and they are really staking their own claim to what 426 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: gymnastics means through their eyes. Somebody like Jordan childs Is, 427 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: you know, has her own clothing line, has her sister 428 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: really intentionally styling her hair, is, you know, not accepting 429 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: these messages is like your hair has to be one way, 430 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: or your body has to be one way, your leotards 431 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: have to be one way. Simone Biles is a blueprint 432 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: for so much of this because she was so undeniable, 433 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: She had a lot of cultural capital, and she has 434 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: spoken out for survivors. She had the Goat Tour, which 435 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: was a gymnastics tour unlike anything we've ever seen that 436 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 1: wasn't just like the sparkle and frills of the sport. 437 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: There's a whole segment in that show where she's literally 438 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: being chased around by dancers wearing sweatshirts saying your anxiety 439 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: is lying to you. Has a whole discussion of mental 440 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 1: health in the show, and is really like bringing the 441 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: sport into new ground and talking about mental health, talking 442 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: about wellness in a holistic view, and so all of 443 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: those things for me feel like a new frontier and 444 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: I really kind of mark how recent it has been. 445 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: When talking to recent graduates of UCLA, they said, I 446 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: feel like the freshman when I was a senior. They're 447 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: entering a new day, but it's just like a three 448 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: year turn in the last like five years, right and 449 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: so a lot of the work that we did was 450 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: like giving us this foundation to stand on so as 451 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: we go forward, we're not just like, Okay, here's a 452 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: picture of Simone's gym the WCC with like all these 453 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: black girls who are going to be commedied competing at 454 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: upcoming trials or worlds or whatever, and think that that's enough, 455 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: but really understanding how they went about building that, why 456 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: it had to be build, and how it can be 457 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: replicated so that whether you're a Level one or a 458 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: Level ten, or in college or elite, you have a 459 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: safe space in order to practice the sport you love. 460 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: You know, one of the things that I and because 461 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: you were just speaking about Simone Biles, that I have 462 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: appreciated so much is her openness with regard to talking 463 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: about her mental health. And you know, we saw that 464 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: back you know, years prior. This was after other legal 465 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: conflicts with Michael Phelps having a conversation about depression and 466 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: now being you know, a person that that endorses um 467 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: different like online therapies. You know, there's a part of 468 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: us in society that you know, we hold these athletes 469 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: that are that are at the elite, that are at 470 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: the top of their game as like the model for 471 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: how we all would want to be. Right, Um, look 472 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: at their sacrifice, look at their dedication. But there's a 473 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: part of sacrifice that isn't just about missing you know, 474 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: the prom and the sleepovers and you know, and and 475 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: the entertainment side of youth. But there's a sacrifice of 476 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: their health, of their mental health and wellness and what 477 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: it takes to be at this elite level. What do 478 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: you think about you know, Simone and others being these 479 00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: black you know, like athletes with this kind of cultural 480 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: capital to have conversations that are not I don't want 481 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: to say that they're they're still taboo, because I don't 482 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: believe that they are still taboo in the black community, 483 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: but there are not as many notable people that have 484 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: conversations publicly about mental about mental health in the black community. 485 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: So how do you think that that has her openness 486 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: has had an impact not just on the sport as 487 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: a whole, which had was, you know, really grounded in 488 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: a lot of silence, but has had with the black community. Yeah, 489 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: I would say Simone Naomi Osaka Raven Saunders, black women 490 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: have really been at the forefront of talking about mental 491 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: health in sports and without it. I think that there's 492 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: a real impact that it's having not only in their 493 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: respective sports, but really across like generations. I have a 494 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: lot of athletes I work with doing oral histories with 495 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: from who competed in the sixties and the seventies, and 496 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: over the summer they were calling and wanting to talk 497 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: about mental health and saying that this generation has given 498 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: them a language in order to talk about that. I 499 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: also just think, as you gesture too, it sparks a conversation. 500 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: So oftentimes we talk about sports as a reflection, as 501 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: a mirror, and I oftentimes say what we really need 502 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: to understand it as a laboratory because it can both 503 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: reflect society, but it can also be the place where 504 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: ideas or practices come to fruition and then get pushed 505 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: out to society. And I think that mental health conversations 506 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: is one of those spaces where it's meaningful with somebody 507 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: with their culture, capital, their platform, their visibility to say no, 508 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 1: to draw boundaries, right to take control of their own narratives. 509 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: Both Simone and Naomio Soccer, for instance, produce documentaries about 510 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: their own kind of journeys and didn't let the media's 511 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: narrative of their mental health or their struggles or whatever 512 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: eclipse what their own truth was. And I think that's 513 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: really a game djur in terms of disrupting the sports 514 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: media complex, you know as it is, and all of 515 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: these things are having effects. I see student athletes, you know, 516 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: at the high school level, college athletes that I work 517 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: with more willing to have these conversations for wherever they're 518 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: at because they're seeing people like Simone have those conversations. 519 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: It's incredibly important. And I tell you the best time 520 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: talking to her mother, who talked about sports psychology and 521 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: talked about how you know, how important for her it 522 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: was to instill these ideas in her kids that you 523 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: can talk to somebody, right, we can talk about these 524 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: issues that if we keep it bottled up like that's 525 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: really harmful. And I know we're talking about this like 526 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: this heavy, but I have to say, like, there is 527 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: joy throughout this podcast, and in particular when I think 528 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: of joy Nellie Biles is just a ray of light. 529 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: And she tells a story that has had me laughing 530 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: for weeks, right about Simone in the bars and stuff 531 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: like that, and I think that that's part of it 532 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: for me too, like, I as somebody who does this 533 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 1: a lot. Usually when a black woman in sports does something, 534 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: it means that my schedule gets busier. And I found 535 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,879 Speaker 1: myself this summer taking instruction from the athletes I work 536 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: with to say I need my own boundaries, like I 537 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: need to worry about my mental health because I am 538 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: tired right And it's like, I'm not going to sacrifice 539 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: my body, my mental health and wellness anything like that 540 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: for our institution or for this or for the grind 541 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: or whatever. And we joked at the top of the 542 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 1: show about having a million different jobs, but knowing when 543 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: to be able to say no to the hustle and 544 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: able to say yes to rest has been something that 545 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 1: has been almost easier to invoke when you see people 546 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: like Naomial soccer Simone Biles doing it. And I think 547 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: that even when we went into making this podcast, my 548 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: producer Jessica Bodiford saying like we have to find the 549 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: joy and not to discount the harm, but rather because 550 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: it coincides and sometimes moving between. It is how people 551 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 1: have coped and it's also how we wanted to produce it. 552 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,439 Speaker 1: So after every end credits is a moment of joy. 553 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: There's laughter, throughout it. Me and Betty Okino, who are 554 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: birthday twins, have like extreme Gemini energy during our episode 555 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: and we're like laughing and we're talking about really hard things, 556 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: but we're really jovial while doing it, and that's just 557 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: our affect. And I think that that having the ability 558 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 1: to talk about mental health and to talk about these 559 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: journeys but also holds space with all of these kind 560 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: of layered, complicated things together is what I'm seeing and 561 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: what I'm really appreciative of folks like Simone, you know, 562 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: facilitating you know, more space for that to occur. I mean, 563 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 1: it's it's such an important conversation to have, particularly you know, 564 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 1: even on my show, which I do a terrible job 565 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: of doing, which is the you know, the go between 566 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: between continued conversations on political rage and then the need 567 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: for there to the rest right that you can't be 568 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: in a state of rage all the time. UM And 569 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: so I think that, you know, in every way, we 570 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: try and show some type of balance, like we're all 571 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: full complete humans that have very complicated, layered, you know, 572 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:21,720 Speaker 1: beautifully tragic stories. Um to to to share, Uh, please 573 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: tell folks a mirror where they can check out this 574 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: incredible layered eight stories. UM podcasts for sure anywhere you 575 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,359 Speaker 1: get your podcasts, which is like the go to easy 576 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: answer now UM it lives all throughout there. Also, if 577 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 1: you go to the website on bluewire dot com, find 578 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: American Prodigies. We also have transcripts for all our episodes 579 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,359 Speaker 1: there should you want trainscripts or um need to read 580 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,800 Speaker 1: along while you listen. Um. I also created a podcast 581 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: playlist for Spotify that includes episodes of this podcast, but 582 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: also um of other podcas has showcasing black women in sports, 583 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: and that's called hear Us Now. You can search out 584 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: on the Spotify platform, but it's really everywhere that you 585 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: get your podcast. If you follow me on Twitter at 586 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,919 Speaker 1: Mira Rose eighty eight or on Instagram Mira Rose six 587 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: I'm so basic right now. Both places have real snippets 588 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: of interviews, links to the show, the show notes, etc. 589 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: I highly recommend it. All episodes are out now and 590 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: so you get eight episodes plus a bonus episode talking 591 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 1: about what we wish we could have put in the 592 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 1: narrative pod. And if you subscribe to like Apple's subscription whatever, 593 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: there's bonus episodes which are my extended interviews with gymnasts 594 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: for each episode and it is I mean, I the 595 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: best time talking to these women. I just have to 596 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 1: tell everybody you have to get Angie Dankins in your life. 597 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 1: Angie Dankins was being champion in nineteen eighty six. She 598 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: has no filter whatsoever. She is a gem and I 599 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: just want everybody in the world if they don't, if 600 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: you do one thing, please go find this podcast episode 601 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: two and get you some Angie Dakins in your life 602 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: because she is worth everything. I love it so much. 603 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: I'm Nera Rose Davis. Thank you so much for making 604 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: the time to join woke f We appreciate you, thanks 605 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: for having me. That is it for me. Dear friends 606 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: here on woke f as always power to the people 607 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay 608 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: woke as fuck.