1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 3 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: is Robert. 4 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And on today's episode 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 3: of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, we're going to be 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 3: doing one of our invention episodes where we look at 7 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 3: an invention from history, look at what came before, what 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 3: this invention changed, how it works, and Rob the subject 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 3: you have picked for today's series is the crossbow. Now 10 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 3: I have to ask, is there a Dungeons and Dragons 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 3: related origin story to you wanting to cover this? 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 2: I mean pretty much, Yeah. 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 3: I think there often is. With you, I feel like 14 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 3: I can I can tell when it's coming. 15 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, because the crossbow, of course, is all over Dungeons 16 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 2: and Dragons. I've definitely role played characters that had crossbows. 17 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 2: But the thing that's always fascinated me about crossbows and 18 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 2: role playing games is that is how that is the 19 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 2: way they're depict it, because a lot of times they 20 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 2: do end up just becoming guns. You know, they're like blasters, 21 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 2: they'd shoot crossbow polts, and in a lot of games, 22 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 2: you don't put a lot of emphasis on the device 23 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 2: itself and how it's working, and any kind of like 24 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 2: realistic idea about how it's loaded and reloaded. In Dungeons 25 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 2: and Dragons, that's the way it tends to go, Like 26 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 2: you can just fire your crossbow every turn, it's no 27 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 2: big deal. But years back, my gaming group did another 28 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 2: role playing game, and this one was one that was 29 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 2: tied in with Dragon Age. I believe, and I may 30 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,119 Speaker 2: have my memory may be crossed on some of these 31 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 2: things here and there, because it was like a good 32 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: ten years ago at this point. But if memory serves, 33 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: the crossbow mechanics in that game were perhaps a little 34 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: more accurate to a lot of crossbow technology and some 35 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 2: of the examples we'll discuss here. But it was also 36 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 2: decidedly un fine because there's one of these situations where 37 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 2: I often go into gaming, role playing gaming sort of 38 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 2: like imagination first, rules second, like I'll make choices that 39 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 2: may come back to bite me in the butt because 40 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 2: I didn't think about how the rules would impact my choices. 41 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: And this was definitely a case like that. Because I 42 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 2: had decided I was going to be a dwarf. I 43 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 2: was gonna have this cool crossbow, but said crossbow, as 44 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 2: it turns out, had to be reloaded for an entire 45 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: turn after use. So we get into a battle and 46 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 2: my dwarf would fire this crossbow, you know, probably miss, 47 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: and then the next turn he's just cranking this sucker 48 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: or you know, he has it on the ground like 49 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 2: redrawing the bow of the crossbow and then gets to 50 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: fire and miss on the following turn. 51 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 3: Now, that might not be more fun, but that is 52 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 3: more accurate because one of the big changes you see 53 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 3: across the history of crossbows is not so much changes 54 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,519 Speaker 3: to the basic design of the crossbow itself, but spanning mechanisms, 55 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 3: mechanism for how you load and draw the string and 56 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 3: lock it into place. So, yeah, I can imagine D 57 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 3: and D would be a lot more cumbersome if you 58 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 3: know your rogue had to get out a cranic quin 59 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 3: every single time to crank the crossbow back and sitting 60 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 3: there like trying to wind it up. 61 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:19,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, it could get It can get tedious, which is 62 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: I think is why in Dumers and Dragons you tend 63 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: to find the crossbow just fires each turn and you 64 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: just just assumed that you are you have enough skill 65 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 2: to make it happen. I don't know, there's probably some 66 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: sort of way you could make make the mechanics of 67 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: it more engaging, but I think probably just firing at 68 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 2: each turn is the best way to go well. 69 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 3: And some of the loading or spanning mechanisms do appear 70 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 3: to have been faster than others in history, so not 71 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 3: all of them had like a like a windlass or 72 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 3: a cranic when one of these big cranking mechanisms. There 73 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 3: were also mechanisms where you just have like a stirrup 74 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 3: that you put your foot in, then you pull it 75 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 3: back and that works pretty quick. 76 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, assuming you have firm ground underfoot. I ran across 77 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: mention of an ancient Chinese text that was warning against 78 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 2: using crossbows if you were on like damp ground, and 79 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 2: which makes sense, like suddenly you have your crossbowman out there. 80 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 2: They need the fire, they need a reload, but uh oh, 81 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 2: you have trouble either getting your foot down into it. 82 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 2: Or it may be a situation where you need to 83 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 2: lie on your back and then stretch it against your feet, 84 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 2: and that could also might or might not work, depending 85 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 2: on how muddy the terrain is. 86 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, you could imagine that, and I guess you would 87 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 3: probably need stable footing even though like so the stirrup 88 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 3: method you're pulling against yourself. You might have like a 89 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 3: hook on your belt or something to pull the mechanism 90 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,119 Speaker 3: back while you push in the stirrup with your foot, 91 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 3: but then you'd probably need to have the other foot 92 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 3: on stable ground. 93 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, I think all this is kind 94 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 2: of the appeal of the crossbow is as like an 95 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 2: idea we were talking before we came in to record here. 96 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,679 Speaker 2: How like for my own part, growing up in Tennessee, 97 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 2: being in boy scouts, you had the opportunity to fire 98 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 2: rifles on shooting ranges, You got the opportunity to fire 99 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 2: to use bow and arrow on archery ranges. But I 100 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 2: never had the chance to try out a crossbow, And 101 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 2: so the crossbow was always this kind of like mysterious 102 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: thing in between. And yet unlike a gun, you could 103 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 2: still look at it and even as a kid, you know, 104 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 2: understand like the basic principles of how it worked. Well. 105 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 3: Yeah, because with a crossbow, I mean, just like with 106 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 3: a bow, there can be a lot of different design 107 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 3: elements that could improve features of how it works, improve usability, 108 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 3: improve the energy delivered or the draw length or whatever 109 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 3: the speed of the projectile. But still at core. A 110 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 3: crossbow operates on the same principle as a bow. 111 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course, yeah, to discuss the crossbow, we're 112 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 2: going to have to talk a little bit about the 113 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: bow at least. And there it's not just a situation 114 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 2: where well, we had the bow and then we created 115 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 2: the crossbow. Who just threw out those bows away? It's 116 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: not nearly as simple as that. And we'll discuss some 117 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: of the famous examples of crossbows going up against bows 118 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 2: and how that played out. But the oldest evidence for 119 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 2: the bow and arrow, as cited by Brian Imfigan and 120 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 2: Peter Rowley Conley in the seventy Great Inventions of the 121 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: Ancient World, goes back ten thousand years to the early 122 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: Mesolithic period in Denmark. This is a thousand years later 123 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 2: than the earliest evidence of arrows twelve thousand years ago 124 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 2: in what is now Germany. In stone erawhead date back 125 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 2: eighteen tho to twenty thousand years ago in Spain, and 126 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 2: possibly have arrow points from sixty to seventy thousand years 127 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: ago in South Africa. The problem with ancient bows, of course, 128 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 2: is that they were almost always made of organic materials 129 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: that just do not survive the test of time, with 130 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 2: the actual arrowheads being the most long lasting part of 131 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 2: the combined weapon technology. 132 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 3: Right, So you'll find evidence of arrowhead heads going back 133 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 3: longer than clear evidence of the bows themselves. And yeah, 134 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 3: I think that example you mentioned from South Africa, like 135 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 3: the Sibudu Cave, is one of the earliest I've read about. 136 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 3: But that's arrowhead evidence, right right. 137 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 2: So no, absolutely, nobody that I've come across is making 138 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: any argument that the crossbows go back nearly that far. 139 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: I think it's it's clear, there's clear indication that the 140 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 2: bow came first, of course, but it is also you know, 141 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 2: worth noting that even with things like the crossbow, the 142 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: crossbow is still made out of mostly organic materials, with 143 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: the main differences being Okay, you have, of course the 144 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: head of the bolt, which may be made out of 145 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: a metal of some sort, and then, as we'll discuss 146 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: later on, you also have the lock of a crossbow. 147 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: This is the implement that holds back the drawn string. 148 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: And so when this is made out of metal, we 149 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 2: may find evidence of it, such as bronze crossbow from China. 150 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 2: Now on the show before we've talked a bit about 151 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 2: the history of projectile weapons, particularly, I think most recently, 152 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: we did a series of episodes on animals throwing things, 153 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 2: and then we did one on humans throwing things, and 154 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 2: that was really interesting because you got into a lot 155 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 2: of situations where you're not just throwing any rock, you're 156 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 2: throwing specially prepared rocks, or you're throwing things like hunting 157 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 2: sticks at animals that sort of thing. 158 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, you can have modifications of the projectiles themselves, but 159 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 3: in terms of launching technology, we actually did a whole 160 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 3: other invention episode back when we had a separate invention 161 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 3: podcast on the odd loadel, which was a piece of 162 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 3: launching technology that was essentially a lever arm to get 163 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 3: increased leverage on a spear. 164 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 2: So these various non bow and pre bow missile weapon technologies, 165 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 2: these had a huge impact on the world of hunter gatherers. 166 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: You know, extended the range of human violence beyond physical 167 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 2: human reas each and by the time the bow comes 168 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 2: along and starts spreading, this just extends the range even farther. 169 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 2: And of course it all served to extend human dominance 170 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 2: over animals and other hominids as well as transforming conflict 171 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 2: between humans. Now, one of the basics about the bow, 172 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: the bow and arrow. And this is something that is 173 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: obvious I think by watching it in action, is that, 174 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 2: as a Fagan and Raleigh Conley point out, the bow 175 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 2: is essentially a spring that stores energy when the bow 176 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 2: string is drawn. Then when the string is released, that 177 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 2: energy is transferred into the propulsion of the arrow. Different 178 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 2: types of wood provided different advantages, and eventually compound bows 179 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,359 Speaker 2: made use of multiple parts to provide maximized performance. 180 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,959 Speaker 3: Yes, it is worth noting that despite the different form 181 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 3: and the different way you hold these weapons, a bow 182 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 3: and a crossbow both typically work on the same mechanical principle, 183 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 3: which is the principle of the spring, by storing energy 184 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 3: in the form of elastic potential and then releasing that 185 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 3: potential suddenly to propel an arrow in the case of 186 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 3: a bow, or a bolt in the case of a 187 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 3: crossbow at high speed. Now, when you shoot a bow, 188 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 3: there's actually a common misconception that the energy comes from 189 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 3: stretching the bow's string. Even though I know better, I 190 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 3: think sometimes my brain still wants to think this way. 191 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 3: But the string of a bow really doesn't stretch you 192 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 3: very much at all, So that's not where the energy 193 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 3: has come from. Coming from the energy comes from bending 194 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 3: the bow itself, bending the limbs of the bow, and 195 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 3: when you pull the string, it bends the bow. When 196 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 3: you release the string, the bow returns to its original shape, 197 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 3: and it propels the arrow as it does so because 198 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 3: it is pulling the string taut, so the string is 199 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 3: sort of a medium. It's how you pull the bow 200 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 3: back and how the snapping back energy of the bow 201 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 3: is delivered to the arrow. 202 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 2: This is why Leglas says, and my bow and my strength. 203 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 3: That's right now. If you've never actually shot a bow 204 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 3: at a target, you might be shocked how much strength 205 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 3: it takes to draw back a bow. You know, I've 206 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 3: done this at various points in my life. Most recently 207 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 3: several years back, I did a goofy little archery range 208 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 3: at a Renaissance festival, and even in that setting, I 209 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 3: remember being shocked at how difficult it was to pull 210 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 3: back the bow, and surprised at how aiming the bow 211 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 3: was made so much more difficult than it looks because 212 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 3: of the tension when you're holding a drawn bow, so 213 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 3: you're flexing, you know, maybe as hard as you can 214 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 3: when you pull a bow string back, and that intense 215 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 3: exertion makes it harder to aim your shot. Your arm 216 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 3: might want to tremble your straining with your whole body, 217 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 3: You're also putting a lot of strain on your hand 218 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 3: and your fingers that are holding the bow string back. 219 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 3: So imagine trying to aim something precisely while you're in 220 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 3: the middle of a bench press or some other weight lift. 221 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 3: And so it's easy to see how a crossbow really 222 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:14,079 Speaker 3: changes the game. There. A crossbow allows the tension of 223 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 3: the bow to be locked in place and then released 224 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 3: by an external mechanism instead of being drawn, held and 225 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 3: released purely by the strength of your muscles and bones. 226 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 2: That's right, and this is where the genius of the 227 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 2: crossbow comes in because the crossbow, I mean you can 228 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 2: almost think of the crossbow as like a robotic or 229 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 2: technological replacement for the arm or the arms in this scenario, 230 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 2: because once the bow is drawn back, this trigger or 231 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 2: lock holds everything in place, holds all of that potential 232 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 2: power in place, and then it can be released by 233 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 2: pulling a trigger. 234 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 3: And this is a point I actually saw emphasized by 235 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,719 Speaker 3: the author of a book I'm gonna mention at some 236 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 3: point in the series that a big difference between say 237 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 3: somebody who was a skilled archer with a long bow 238 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 3: versus somebody who was a skilled crossbow operator. In the 239 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 3: medieval period, say, a big difference would be the level 240 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 3: of fitness required in order to be a long bow operator. 241 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 3: There is just like way more requirement of real upper 242 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 3: body strength and training, of physical training, not just skill training. 243 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of skill involved for the use 244 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 2: of a bow, and I should highlight they are going 245 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 2: to be differences depending on where and how a bow 246 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 2: is utilized for what specific hunting or military uses and 247 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 2: so forth. I mean, for example, there's a difference between 248 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 2: the skill of of of a bowman on foot and 249 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 2: a mounted archer out there in a battle scenario. But 250 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 2: one of the primary examples of archery expertise that I'm 251 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 2: gonna mentioned here and also pops up in a lot 252 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 2: of the literature is, of course the archers who used 253 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 2: the English long bow. This was a powerful bow that 254 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 2: required a considerable amount of upper body strength, and you 255 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 2: had to work for years to build up the strength 256 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: to use these weapons, and generally had to start at 257 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: a very early age. More on the English long bow 258 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 2: in a minute here, but one of the key factors 259 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 2: to consider in all this is drawweight. None of this 260 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 2: will come as a shock to any bow hunters out 261 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: there for sure, And maybe you can write in and 262 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 2: tell us a few things about all of this. But 263 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 2: the idea is that pulling back on I say, sixty 264 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 2: pound drawweight bow would be like lifting a sixty pound 265 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 2: weight off the ground. But then, of course, as we've 266 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 2: been discussing, it's not just lifting that sixty pound weight, 267 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 2: it's holding it, aiming it, perhaps with your life on 268 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 2: the line in a military scenario, and then releasing it. 269 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, trying to finally control both aim and timing while 270 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 3: you are holding back this extremely heavy weight. Now, regarding 271 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 3: the basic physics of a bow draw, I was looking 272 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 3: around on this and one great source I came across 273 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 3: was actually an old school house stuff works article takes 274 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 3: me back. 275 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, who wrote this one? 276 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 3: One buyer, Our friend Tracy Wilson, now host of stuff 277 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 3: you missed in history class. 278 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 2: Oh nice. 279 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 3: But Tracy's article on how the crossbow works goes into 280 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 3: several of the main variables that determine the energy of 281 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 3: a bow shot. So, as you were just saying that, 282 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 3: there is what's called a bow's draw weight, and this 283 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 3: is the force it takes to draw the bow, and 284 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 3: this depends on multiple things like the material properties of 285 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 3: the bow, material on the size of the bow, its 286 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 3: shape and design, and so forth. There is also the 287 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 3: draw length, which is the distance between the bow strings 288 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 3: resting position and the point that you draw it back to. 289 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 3: And of course draw length is not an intrinsic property 290 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 3: of the bow, but changes with each draw, like you 291 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 3: could draw it back to different lengths, and so it 292 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 3: would be a characteristic of a bow shot. Also, generally 293 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 3: the draw weight increases along with the draw length, so 294 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 3: the farther you pull the bow string back, the more 295 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 3: force it takes. So you might say that there a 296 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 3: bow has a certain draw weight at a certain draw length. 297 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 2: Because even with say an English long bow, a child 298 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 2: would be able to pick it up and pull pull 299 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 2: the bow back a little bit, but not enough to 300 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 2: actually get to the full the full draw and the 301 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 2: full potential of the boat. 302 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 3: Yes, and this actually comes back to questions Medieval history 303 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 3: nerds like to ask, like, you know, how exactly how 304 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 3: much strength does it take to shoot an English long 305 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 3: bow of the thirteenth century or something, And you could say, well, 306 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 3: you know, if the bow is made like this, it 307 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 3: would take this much strength to shoot it at its 308 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 3: full potential, you know, with this amount of draw length. 309 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 3: But probably anybody could underdraw the bow. So it's just 310 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 3: a question of like how effective you are at using it. 311 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 312 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 3: But regarding these these variables draw weight and draw length, 313 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 3: they can affect the shot in various ways. For example, 314 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 3: the longer the draw length in terms of distance, the 315 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 3: longer in terms of time the string will be pushing 316 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 3: the arrow before it is released. Does that make sense, 317 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 3: so that imparts more energy if you pull it actually 318 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 3: farther back, the string is pushing the arrow and giving 319 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 3: it force longer, and so the energy stored for a 320 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 3: bow shot can be calculated as roughly draw weight times 321 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 3: draw length divided by two, and then the energy of 322 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 3: the shot would be measured in units like foot pounds, 323 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 3: you know, the energy required to lift one pound by 324 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 3: one foot, or jewels. So the design of a bow 325 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 3: can make a big difference in the energy it can deliver. 326 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 3: A long bow with a longer draw length and a 327 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 3: heavier draw weight tends to impart more energy to the 328 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 3: arrow and thus increase its range, and a long bow 329 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 3: can shoot over longer distances and tend to shoot heavier arrows. 330 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 3: But materials matter. Traditionally, bows were made out of strong 331 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 3: and elastic woods, you know, in the case of the 332 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 3: English long bow, the wood of the yew tree is 333 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 3: often mentioned. But modern bows are often made of different 334 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 3: materials and parts designed to flex and store energy in 335 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 3: different ways. Not just one piece of wood anymore, but 336 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 3: different kinds of materials. And there is also a difference 337 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 3: that's important to remember between compound bows and composite bows. 338 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 3: You can mix them up because they both start with 339 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 3: com but composite bows are regular bows made out of 340 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 3: a combination of different materials, often laminated together so traditionally 341 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 3: by combining wood with different types of animal parts like 342 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 3: horn and sinew, Whereas compound bows are bows that use 343 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 3: different parts such as pulleys or other levering machines to 344 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 3: give the archer mechanical advantage in drawing back, to allow 345 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 3: maybe for more rigid bow material to be used. 346 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 2: So it's composite materials and then compounded force. 347 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 3: Right, Compound bows have machines in them, like pulleys or levers. 348 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think I think everyone's probably seen, 349 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: especially like it's kind of like an almost iconic of 350 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 2: modern say bow hunters, you'll see those various pulleys on 351 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 2: the bow. 352 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 3: And so all of these mechanical principles basically apply to 353 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 3: crossbows as well. Though there are some common design differences 354 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 3: that you would observe with crossbows, even though they're not 355 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 3: necessarily they're not necessary to the principle of crossbow. For example, 356 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 3: crossbows typically have shorter limbs than long bows h and 357 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 3: also shorter bolts, so a shorter draw length. Though that 358 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 3: that's not fundamental to what a crossbow is. It just 359 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 3: happens to be that crossbows are usually like that now. 360 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 2: One source I was looking at for different stats on 361 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 2: draw strength was a website called bowhunting dot com, which 362 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 2: points out that modern compound bows are pretty excellent. They 363 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 2: say you can comfortably hunt with a forty pound draw bow, 364 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 2: and that's perfectly reasonable for most hunting scenarios with big 365 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 2: game I'm assuming they're mostly talking about something like a 366 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 2: deer in this case. They specify sixty to sixty five 367 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 2: for something like a moose or an elk, and they 368 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 2: point out that some shooters today can handle seventy eighty 369 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 2: or ninety pound bows. So this brings us to the question, 370 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 2: all right, well we're talking about the English long bow 371 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 2: is sort of the bow part excellence. Well what kind 372 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 2: of draw are we talking about on those Well, it 373 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 2: turns out it's a matter of some debate, but the 374 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 2: best you English longbows may have required and a mistress 375 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 2: may it depends on whose crunching the figures here, but 376 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 2: it may have required between one hundred and fifty and 377 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty pound draws. That's eighty one point 378 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 2: six kilograms on the upper end. 379 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 3: And even if it's not that high, I mean a 380 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 3: over one hundred pound draw, which I think is widely 381 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 3: agreed upon, is that's still incredibly h That is, it's 382 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 3: hard to imagine. 383 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 2: And like I've been saying, it would not only be 384 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 2: a test of strength to draw that bow to aim 385 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 2: and then release it just a single time. You have 386 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 2: to remember that, especially in a warfare situation, the archer 387 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 2: would be firing over and over again. Repetition is key, 388 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 2: even in a hunting scenario. According to bowhunting dot Com, 389 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 2: the rule of thumb is that whatever weight you're using 390 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: on your bow, you need to be able to do 391 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 2: it thirty times in a row without feeling fatigued. 392 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 3: That's a lot of reps. 393 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't think that means that you're necessarily firing 394 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 2: thirty arrows at a single deer, but I think that's 395 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 2: the general idea is if you can't do that, then 396 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 2: you need to cut back on your draw strength. 397 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 3: I hesitate to speculate because I know nothing about bow hunting, 398 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 3: but I imagine that would be about trying to aim 399 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 3: and time the correct shots. So you might be drawing 400 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 3: in cases where you wouldn't actually be releasing the arrow. 401 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, not every time you 402 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: drawback are you're actually going to fire that in that arrow? 403 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 2: So the English longbow was the ultimate missile weapon during 404 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 2: the one hundred Years of War and saw use into 405 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 2: the sixteenth century. I played an important role in multiple battles. 406 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 2: We'll get to one in a minute, but another one 407 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 2: is the Battle at agin Court from fourteen fifteen, in 408 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 2: which the English force is famously focused I think eighty 409 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 2: percent of their battle force on arranged weapons to secure victory. 410 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 2: In this and other examples, we should point out like 411 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 2: it's not as important as the weaponry choice is. It's 412 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 2: not the only factor. Of course, there are other factors 413 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 2: involved in any given warfare scenario, the bows may not 414 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 2: survive all that well, as we've discussed, but and stew 415 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 2: And while this is apparently also not a one hundred 416 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 2: percent agreed upon issue, you do have this situation where 417 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty two the wreck of the Mary Rose 418 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 2: was raised. This is a ship that sank English ship 419 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 2: that's thank in fifteen fifty four, and the skeletons on 420 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 2: board displayed a disproportionate amount of a shoulder ossification condition 421 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 2: known as os acromali. This is actually associated with elite archery, 422 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 2: so you know, repeatedly drawing back on some sort of 423 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 2: a powerful bow, for example, and there were long bows 424 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 2: on board. It's not one hundred percent again, but it's 425 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 2: an often cited correlation when it comes to just like 426 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 2: talking about like what sort of physical prowess would be 427 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 2: required to use these bows efficiently in a warfare scenario. 428 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 3: So the point being that both the longbow and the 429 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 3: crossbow could be highly effective in various scenarios for hunting 430 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 3: or for warfare or whatever. But the long bow required 431 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 3: incredible physical strength and intense physical training, whereas the crossbow 432 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 3: did require some skill training. You had to know how 433 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 3: to use it, but did not place the same kind 434 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 3: of demands on the human body. 435 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 2: Right, And even in cases where you didn't have any 436 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 2: kind of a pulley system, etc. To aid you in 437 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 2: drawing the crossbow, you at least did not have to 438 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 2: do any kind of precision aiming while doing it. All 439 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 2: you had to worry about was getting it drawn back 440 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 2: all the way and then the lock would come into place, 441 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 2: and then you can aim without having to endure that 442 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 2: physical strain. So yeah, as Fagan and rally Conway point out, Yeah, 443 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 2: the crossbow can be kept drawn for much longer than 444 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 2: an archer can possibly hold a drawn bow, and the 445 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 2: crossbow can be made even more powerful than the strongest bow. 446 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,479 Speaker 2: But I have to stress on this as we'll discuss. 447 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: I mean, this all comes down to scale, right, I mean, 448 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 2: and range. There are number of factors involved there, because 449 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 2: any given crossbow is not necessarily more powerful than a bow, 450 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 2: as we'll discuss. But yeah, one of the key advantages 451 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 2: here is that it kind of democratizes the use of 452 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 2: a bow weapon. While a bow's power is limited by 453 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 2: the strength of the archer, a crossbow can again be 454 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 2: drawn via mechanical devices so you can end up with 455 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 2: a weapon that ensures greater accuracy, at least at short 456 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 2: to medium ranges, with less specialized training required. The downside, 457 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 2: of course, as we already alluded to, is that actually 458 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 2: drawing the crossbow tends to take more time than drawing 459 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 2: a bow. Again, if on one side you have somebody 460 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: who can effectively draw the long bow that they're using, 461 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 2: and on the other side you have someone who has 462 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 2: a nice crossbow. And this is especially true if you're 463 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 2: having to employ some sort of mechanical apparatus to draw 464 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 2: the crossbow, but it also seems true if you're having 465 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 2: to do something like, you know, stick it in the 466 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 2: ground and then draw back using your arms and your legs. 467 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 3: One other difference in the calculation I have come across 468 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 3: is the idea that the crossbow equipment would generally be 469 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 3: more expensive than longbow equipment. 470 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 2: That's a good point too, so either more gears and 471 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 2: so forth that are involved, it may make it easier 472 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 2: for everyone to use it, but it becomes a more 473 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 2: specialized technology as well. Now, another important battle to touch 474 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 2: on is another scenario involving the English longbow, and that's 475 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 2: the Battle of Creasy from thirteen forty six, in which 476 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 2: the technology of the English longbow ensured victory over French crossbowmen. 477 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 2: And I was reading about this in the book Connections 478 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 2: by James Burke, who we've brought him up on the 479 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 2: show before, and I think fairly recently somebody wrote in 480 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 2: about James Burke's work on our listener mail episodes. But 481 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 2: Burke points out that the English longbow had exceptional range. 482 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: He cites four hundred yards and special steel arrowheads that 483 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 2: were designed to punch through armor at close range, and 484 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 2: he points out that experienced archer could loose nine arrows 485 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 2: in a minute, while the French crossbowmen required lengthier reload time. 486 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 2: So the idea is like, the archers have fired, the 487 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 2: crossbowmen fire, and then before the crossbowmen can reload their weapons, 488 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 2: the archers have fired again. However, the experienced archer part 489 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 2: of the scenario is key. Once More, Burke writes that 490 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 2: within decades of this pivotal battle that saw the championing 491 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 2: of the English longbow over crossbows and traditional armored knights, 492 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 2: it was after this ten years later, increasingly impossible to 493 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,959 Speaker 2: find enough skilled archers to power the long bow and 494 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 2: provide the sort of overwhelming fire power that ruled the 495 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 2: day at Creasy. Burke discusses the possible reasons for this 496 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 2: at length in the book, and I believe in them 497 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 2: of course the documentary TV series as well, and he 498 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 2: cites a number of different, different different reasons than tailing 499 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 2: the continued recovery from the plague, improvements in plowing technology, 500 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 2: various other inventions and innovations, improved diets, and also a 501 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: general improvement in the quality of life for the average human. 502 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 2: Burke writes, quote, it took years for a man to 503 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 2: be trained to use the six foot u bo, and 504 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 2: here was the adult male population frittering away valuable training 505 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 2: hours enjoying itself. The reason, therefore, that the long bow 506 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 2: enjoyed such a brief spell of success lay in the 507 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 2: rising standard of living which the agricultural revolution had brought about. 508 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 3: Although interestingly, I was reading historical fact about how the 509 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 3: introduction of widespread crossbow use did not eliminate this tension 510 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 3: between between sort of like free time and enjoyment and 511 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 3: the military leaders emphasis that everybody really should be training. 512 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 3: So there's a book I've been looking at called The 513 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 3: Medieval Crossbow by Stuart Ellis Gorman published in the year 514 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 3: twenty twenty two and Sword Military Press, and this is 515 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 3: a book length investigation of the crossbow. And I was 516 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 3: reading a reddit ama with this this author who points 517 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 3: out that you have multiple ordinances from the government in 518 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 3: various places throughout medieval Europe, in England but also in 519 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 3: late medieval France and at some point in Genoa that 520 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 3: were like banning leisure activities and telling people to be 521 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 3: doing archery or crossbow practice instead. So like Genoa at 522 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 3: some point banned tournaments and banned gambling and said you 523 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 3: should be practicing your crossbow instead of doing these things. 524 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the Conan the Barbarian principle. You know, 525 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 2: you watch Conan the Barbarian, It's like, yeah, he's a 526 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 2: great warrior, but man, he seems miserable. He's not he's 527 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 2: not really making any time or is given any time 528 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 2: to do anything else. So you know, of course he's 529 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 2: this mighty warrior, but is it becomes less as people 530 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 2: begin to have other choices in their life. They're not 531 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 2: there just constantly, constantly practicing those archery skills. And therefore 532 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 2: you can see the shift perhaps being made to something 533 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 2: like the crossbow that is usable by the average person, 534 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,479 Speaker 2: but without all of this extensive training. 535 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 3: Though as the shows, it wouldn't require the same level 536 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 3: of physical training, but you would still have to practice. 537 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you couldn't. You couldn't just hand them out 538 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: and expect everyone to just automatically hit everything you're aiming at. 539 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 2: Though I guess there's room in that statement for various 540 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 2: arguments about what sort of scale are you handing them 541 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 2: out at? And certainly, as we may discuss in this 542 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 2: episode in the next, I mean, there are examples where 543 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 2: a lot of crossbows are deployed in given battles in 544 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 2: different scenarios. Now, this leads us to the question, of course, 545 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 2: when do we see the earliest crossbows. And of course, 546 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 2: one of the issues again and in dating earliest crossbows, 547 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 2: of course, or the organic materials that aren't going to 548 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 2: survive the test of time and you're having to rely 549 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 2: on things like crossbow bolt heads and also the locks. 550 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 2: But another interesting point that's brought up by Fagan and 551 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: Riley Conway is that sometimes it's difficult to say what's 552 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 2: a crossbow and what's a catapult. They point out that 553 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 2: the earliest crossbows in some regions anyway kind of resembled 554 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 2: small catapults, and there was likely they think some sort 555 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 2: of transformative step from stationary to mobile weaponry here, And 556 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 2: I can kind of imagine this is kind of like 557 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 2: you can imagine people thinking, what if we made a 558 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 2: bigger bow, Well, we wouldn't be able to pull that back. 559 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 2: We'd have to do something else. And then they're like, Okay, 560 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 2: I've created it, and what have you created. It's kind 561 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 2: of like a cross It's kind of like a big crossbow. 562 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 2: It's kind of also like a catapult. And then you 563 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 2: might think this is interesting, what have we scaled this 564 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 2: back down? And then you could hold it? 565 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 3: Yes, though I do think scale does tend to place 566 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 3: different requires on like what kinds of mechanisms you can use. 567 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 3: For example, you can look at the ballista, which is 568 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 3: like a siege weapon which has existed since ancient times, 569 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 3: and say, well, that looks a lot like a crossbow, 570 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 3: but it does have a different mechanism for storing energy 571 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 3: than the crossbow does. The crossbow stores it in the 572 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 3: tension of the bow of the limbs, whereas I can't 573 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 3: remember exactly what the mechanism is for the ballista, but 574 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 3: it's different. I think it has to do with like 575 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 3: winding ropes or something. 576 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, so catapults, we might have to come back to 577 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 2: another siege equipment, because there's a lot of interesting innovation 578 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 2: that goes on there. Apparently, Biblical accounts point back to 579 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 2: the reign of Uzaiah around eight hundred BCE as a 580 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 2: possible time during which people were using catapults, and then 581 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 2: there's a definite mention of them in Sicily around four 582 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 2: hundred BCE. But of course all this stems from ancient 583 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 2: world scenarios which you had walled city states encountering siege situations, 584 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 2: and of course the besiegers would have to devise various 585 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 2: ways to have to contend with this, and of course 586 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,959 Speaker 2: the besieged on their end would come up with various 587 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 2: means of defending themselves. So Fagan and Rowley Conway point 588 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 2: to two key dates for earliest crossbow emergence, one in 589 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 2: second century BCE Rome, which will come back to in 590 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 2: a bit, and the other in fifth century BCE China. 591 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 2: Now you can well ask for these independent advances. Perhaps 592 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 2: it's also been theorized by many that the Chinese invention 593 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 2: simply spread to the West, perhaps more than once. And 594 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 2: we can't necessarily connect all the dots here, but you 595 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 2: can point out the key dots and some of the 596 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 2: time periods that are associated with them. 597 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you don't know exactly how it traveled, though 598 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,479 Speaker 3: it does seem to me uncontroversially agreed upon that the 599 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 3: earliest crossbow usage was in ancient China. 600 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 2: Yes, century BC dating believe concerns bronze crossbow components, bronze 601 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 2: bold heads, bronze crossbow locks, and these have been dated 602 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 2: to the mid seventh century BCE. Bolts have also turned 603 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 2: up in Chinese tombs from this time period. John Key, 604 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 2: in his book on Chinese history, rights that the crossbows 605 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 2: long quote the weapon of first choice in the Chinese military, 606 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 2: but advancements in equestrian power did end up limiting its 607 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 2: effectiveness somewhat. So these would not so much be the 608 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 2: fact that people were riding the horses, but people were 609 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 2: armored on the horse. The horse and the strength of 610 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 2: the horse and the speed of the horse were able 611 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 2: to convey an armored individual around more easily. But of 612 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 2: course this comes a good bit later. 613 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 3: But it's not just artifacts, right, because I think ancient 614 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 3: Chinese texts do make explicit mention of the crossbow. 615 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, Sun Zoo in the Art of War from the 616 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 2: fifth century BCE definitely mentions them. It brings up like, 617 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 2: sort of philosophically right that he says, quote in energy 618 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 2: may be likened to the bending of a crossbow, decision 619 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 2: to the releasing of a trigger. 620 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 3: Ah, So the physical device there being so familiar by 621 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,800 Speaker 3: the point of Sunsu's writing that it's a proper source 622 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 3: of metaphor. 623 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like, this is not what 624 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 2: he's talking about, but it's kind of like you can 625 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 2: imagine someone saying, hey, when it comes to slinging insults, 626 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 2: do you want to be an archer or a crossbow wielder? 627 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 2: You know, be a crossbow wielder, Think up that insult 628 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 2: in advance, store it away, store its potential away, and 629 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 2: then when the time comes, you pull the trigger. Now. 630 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 2: One source that we often come back to when we 631 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 2: discuss technology and innovation and invention in ancient China is 632 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,240 Speaker 2: of course the work of Joseph Needham's, particularly his Science 633 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 2: and Civilization in China series, which Gosh, off the top 634 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 2: of my head, I can't remember how many volumes are 635 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 2: in this series. Anytime I read it, I'm always I 636 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 2: always get excited about it, and I'll take a moment 637 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 2: to see if i can just buy them all, and 638 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 2: then I quickly realized that I cannot do that. They're 639 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 2: they're not necessarily in print, and there are a bunch 640 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 2: of them. 641 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 3: If I'm not mistaken. Though Joseph Needham was the original author, 642 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 3: the Science and Civilization in China series has sort of 643 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 3: continued after his death, right. 644 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 2: That's right. And then also some volumes have been somewhat 645 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 2: abbreviated because they are there by other authors. They're they're 646 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 2: pretty extensive, but I've always found them to be very 647 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 2: readable and enjoyable. And his mastery and the mastery of 648 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 2: those he was working with, not only historically but linguistically, 649 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 2: it's just awe inspiring. But one thing that he points out, 650 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 2: I'm going to mention a few things that he mentioned 651 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 2: about the crossbow in these books. He writes, quote, it 652 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 2: has been demonstrated that in ancient times in China, the 653 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 2: progress of invention in offensive weapons, especially the efficient crossbow, 654 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 2: far outstripped progress indefensive armor. This, he points out, is 655 00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 2: reflected in various accounts of feudal lords in ancient China 656 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 2: being overtaken by peasants armed with crossbows. So this is 657 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 2: just like another case of like a very very broad 658 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 2: generality you can make about the crossbow in that it 659 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 2: democratizes the use of the bow weapon. You don't have 660 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 2: to be an expert archer to wield it. And especially 661 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 2: if like Needham was riding here, if you have defensive 662 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,360 Speaker 2: innovation is lagging behind offensive innovation, you may have the 663 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 2: upper hand. Now, there wasn't just one Chinese crossbow, and 664 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 2: I think in the next episode I'll talk about a 665 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 2: specific innovation, but there were multiple innovations of the crossbow, 666 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 2: and and Needham discusses that one of the standard Chinese 667 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 2: crossbows would be loaded by either lying on your back 668 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 2: or standing on the bow using leg thrusts and arms 669 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 2: to cock the bow. Now, another thing he points out 670 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 2: concerns gunpowder. We did an episode or episodes about the 671 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,759 Speaker 2: invention of gunpowder, and we talked a bit in that 672 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 2: about es innovations concerning gunpowder, even an offensive capacity. And 673 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 2: he points out that, yeah, crossbows were also used with 674 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 2: various incendiary implements of flammable or explosive crossbow bolts, et cetera. 675 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 2: On the other hand, sometimes crossbow was used in the 676 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 2: naming of a pyrotechnic ranged weapon, even if it was 677 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 2: not actually a crossbow. He brings up the example of 678 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 2: the fire crossbow meteoric arrow shooter. That's like the literal 679 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 2: translation of the Chinese here, But he points out it's 680 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 2: not as the name implies a crossbow. It's also not 681 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 2: as the name implies a rocket. He describes it as 682 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 2: a quote proto gun firing ten poisoned arrows at a time, 683 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 2: which came out quote like a flock of locusts. So 684 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 2: still kind of hard to imagine what that is, but 685 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 2: apparently not an actual crossbow. But it's like, again, the 686 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 2: technology is along so so long it becomes a metaphor. 687 00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 2: It also becomes a way of thinking about subsequent innovation 688 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 2: and discoveries. But on the crossbow itself, he writes that 689 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 2: quote China of the Warring States period fifth century PCE 690 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 2: was almost certainly the home of the crossbow, and by 691 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 2: the time that this became the standard weapon of the 692 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 2: Han armies, it had acquired a bronze trigger mechanism of 693 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 2: beautiful and intricate construction. The crossbow was introduced to the 694 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 2: Western world probably twice before the fifth century and again 695 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,359 Speaker 2: during the tenth century. He also contends that in this 696 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 2: the trigger as we know it extends from Chinese technological origins, 697 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 2: so the trigger as something that would be used to 698 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 2: fire guns. But then also we can take that even 699 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 2: further and just think about like the use of a 700 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 2: trigger again as a technological metaphor. 701 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 3: Right, well, I mean there are tons of inventions that 702 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 3: are that are not weapons, that have like elastic potential 703 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 3: stored in some way and there's a trigger lock holding 704 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 3: it in place that can be released. 705 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 2: All right, where we're going to go ahead and close 706 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 2: out this episode, but we will be back with more 707 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 2: discussions of the crossbow, the invention of the crossbow. We 708 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 2: want to get more into early examples of the crossbows 709 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:17,839 Speaker 2: in Western traditions and Mediterranean traditions specifically. Also, there are 710 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 2: a couple of key innovations I want to touch on 711 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 2: from either the Middle East or again Chinese crossbow innovation 712 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 2: of later years. And in the meantime, Yes, if you 713 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 2: have any personal experience of crossbows you'd like to chime 714 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,839 Speaker 2: in about or with the bow. We did a good 715 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 2: bit of discussion there about the bow or if you 716 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 2: just have experience in the imagined worlds of Dungeons and 717 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,840 Speaker 2: Dragons and other games. Concerning the use of a crossbow, 718 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 2: well that's fair game as well. Just a reminder. The 719 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science podcast, 720 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 2: with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Mondays we 721 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,800 Speaker 2: do listener mail. On Wednesdays we usually have an artifact 722 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:56,879 Speaker 2: or monster fact episode, and then on Fridays we set 723 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:58,919 Speaker 2: aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird 724 00:40:58,960 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 2: movie on Weird House. 725 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 3: So huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer 726 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 3: JJ Posway. If you would like to get in touch 727 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 3: with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 728 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 3: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to 729 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 3: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff 730 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 3: to Blow your Mind dot com. 731 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 732 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 733 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.