Speaker 1: Attorney General Jeff's Sessions is in El Salvador for planned
Speaker 1: meetings on fighting gang violence and illegal immigration from Central America,
Speaker 1: But will he still have his job when he comes back.
Speaker 1: President Trump has been engaged in a campaign of public
Speaker 1: humiliation of the top law enforcement official in the country,
Speaker 1: one that is unprecedented. Yet Trump has been unwilling to
Speaker 1: use those two words he's so famous for, You're fired,
Speaker 1: and his campaign seems to be backfiring. Senate Republicans are
Speaker 1: furious at the treatment of one of their respected colleagues,
Speaker 1: and a number of Republicans have called White House officials
Speaker 1: and even Trump personally to warn him against removing Sessions.
Speaker 1: According to a Senate geopaid who asked not to be identified,
Speaker 1: last night, Senate Judiciary Chairman Chuck Grasslely tweeted there was
Speaker 1: no way his panel would consider the nomination of a
Speaker 1: replacement for Sessions, and this morning, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham
Speaker 1: of South Carolina issued a more far reaching warning, there
Speaker 1: will be no confirmation hearing for new Attorney general. Uh
Speaker 1: if Jeff Session is fired, there will be holy Hill
Speaker 1: to pay. Any effort to go after Mueller could be
Speaker 1: the beginning of the ends at the Trump presidency. Unless
Speaker 1: Mueller did something wrong right now, I have no reason
Speaker 1: to believe that Mueller is compromised, and Sessions has shown
Speaker 1: no signs of stepping down. My guests are Aims Growert,
Speaker 1: counsel at the Brennan Center for Justice, and Jane Healy,
Speaker 1: vice president of the Cato Institute. Aims presidents have been
Speaker 1: angry with their ages before. Bill Clinton reportedly furious with
Speaker 1: Attorney General Janet Reno over her decision to expand Special
Speaker 1: Prosecutor Ken Stars authority in the Monica Lewinsky matter, but
Speaker 1: there was no public statement or attempt to fire Reno.
Speaker 1: What are the consequences of the president attempting to or
Speaker 1: appearing to interfere in the activities of the Justice Department? Actually,
Speaker 1: all right, okay, we're having a problem with his line.
Speaker 1: We'll try to reconnect him. Let's go to Jean Healy
Speaker 1: with that question. Gene, what are the consequences of the
Speaker 1: president appearing to interfere in the activities of the Justice Department. Well,
Speaker 1: it could be very far reaching, up to an including impeachment.
Speaker 1: We had the first article of impeachment formally introduced in
Speaker 1: the in the House two weeks ago by a representative
Speaker 1: Brad Sherman, and it's based on obstruction of justice in
Speaker 1: the Comy firing. It's unlikely to go anywhere right about now,
Speaker 1: but it's it's become increasingly difficult to tell. The Trump
Speaker 1: administration comes at you fast. That's certainly true. I understand
Speaker 1: that Aims is back with us Aims. The President has
Speaker 1: also publicly criticized Depp, the Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, acting
Speaker 1: FBI Director Andrew McCabe. He's criticized the intelligence agencies. Of course,
Speaker 1: he fired James Comey. What are the consequences to the
Speaker 1: public who sees this of politicizing the people who handle
Speaker 1: the nation's security and law enforcement. Sure, thanks for having
Speaker 1: me first. I'm so glad we were able to reconnect
Speaker 1: um this. Actually, it puts groups like the Brennan Center
Speaker 1: in a tough position because I think if you know
Speaker 1: our work, you know we're no huge fan of how
Speaker 1: Attorney General Jeff Sessions has been managing his Jeffice Department.
Speaker 1: But the flip side of that is we're we're also
Speaker 1: we also stand by the rule of law. We don't
Speaker 1: want to see a situation where an attorney General like
Speaker 1: Jeff Sessions, is fired for anything other than his performance,
Speaker 1: which we view them view there are problems with and
Speaker 1: I do think it risks undermining the rule of law
Speaker 1: and Americans trusts and their government gene. The Washington Post
Speaker 1: reply order that Trump has discussed with advisors the possibility
Speaker 1: of avoiding Senate confirmation of another a G by trying
Speaker 1: to install a new a G through a recess appointment
Speaker 1: if Sessions were to resign or be fired at the
Speaker 1: White House denied that, calling it fake news. But Senate
Speaker 1: Republicans have been holding proform as sessions every few days,
Speaker 1: haven't they? When the Senate is otherwise in recess? Will
Speaker 1: you explain what they're doing? Well, Yeah, this is something
Speaker 1: that came up in the Obama administration, and it's a
Speaker 1: it's a good in in hindsight that the President does
Speaker 1: not have the power to declare UH the Senate actually
Speaker 1: in session UH during these proformer sessions. This should be
Speaker 1: an obstacle to UH. To Trump trying to recess a
Speaker 1: point a new attorney general. He seems to think that
Speaker 1: the role of the Attorney General is to be his
Speaker 1: UH sort of Tom Hagen, his counciliary and run interference
Speaker 1: for him, and that's not the proper role of the
Speaker 1: attorney general. And uh I there are reports that he
Speaker 1: will get serious pushback from Republicans if he even thinks
Speaker 1: about trying this gambit. I've been talking to Ames Growit,
Speaker 1: counsel at the Brennan Center for Justice, and Jeane Healy,
Speaker 1: vice president of the Cato Institute, about the standing feud
Speaker 1: between President Trump and his Attorney General Jeff Sessions. There
Speaker 1: have been no tweets this morning, so that's one thing
Speaker 1: um Ames Graham Lindsay Graham. Congressman Lindsay Grant said in
Speaker 1: a separate interview on Fox News that he's preparing new
Speaker 1: legislation that would require a dismissal of the Special Counsel
Speaker 1: to be reviewed by the courts to protect against the
Speaker 1: abuse of power by anyone. If he gets that legislation
Speaker 1: on the floor, will will he be able to get
Speaker 1: the votes for it? Do you think That's a pretty
Speaker 1: interesting question, And I think it will be a big
Speaker 1: test for where exactly a Republicans Democrats see their role
Speaker 1: in this process. I think that could be a good
Speaker 1: way to make sure that um things don't go out
Speaker 1: of hand very quickly. If Trump gets his way and
Speaker 1: is able to either four Sessions out or directly fire him. Um,
Speaker 1: I think that will test a lot of We've seen
Speaker 1: tests for a lot of our institutions, and this will
Speaker 1: be just one more. Geane, what's your opinion about whether
Speaker 1: he could get that signed, well, not signed, actually not signed.
Speaker 1: You would have to have I'm just I'm just thinking
Speaker 1: it through now. The signing might be a problem. Well, look,
Speaker 1: you know, short of legislation, they're they're consequences for these
Speaker 1: sorts of behaviors. I mean, the irony is that he
Speaker 1: seems to think that the Trump seems to think that
Speaker 1: it was sessions refusal that got him into this as uh,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't. It was firing Comey using uh deputy
Speaker 1: attorned General Rosenstein's cover, uh and then admitting on national
Speaker 1: TV a couple of days later that there that the
Speaker 1: reason he the real reason he did it was over
Speaker 1: the quote this Russia thing. I mean that that pretty
Speaker 1: much made the appointment of a Special Council almost inevitable.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, you you're seeing reports that you know,
Speaker 1: he's asked advisors about his ability to pardon friends and
Speaker 1: associates and even himself. Uh, any number of these things
Speaker 1: could be attempted, but I think they're there will be
Speaker 1: and should be political consequences for them, up to and
Speaker 1: possibly including impeachment if he decides to go that route.
Speaker 1: Games let's turn to that surprise announcement on Twitter yesterday
Speaker 1: that has many people questioning what's going on for the
Speaker 1: thousands of transgender people currently serving, where Trump said that
Speaker 1: they would not be serving and the Defense Department came
Speaker 1: out with a statement saying that they would that. Um,
Speaker 1: the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs made it clear to
Speaker 1: Top Press that there will be no changes now and
Speaker 1: that President Trump has to give direction to the Defense Secretary,
Speaker 1: and the secretary has issued implementation guidance. What is the
Speaker 1: president's power as far as enacting something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, like so many stories we've seen in this
Speaker 1: in this new Trump era, there there are two levels
Speaker 1: for this one. There there's the one, there's the stubsitive
Speaker 1: problem that it's it's it's a flap in the face
Speaker 1: to the many transgendered people who served with honor in
Speaker 1: the military. And then the second one is, Uh, President
Speaker 1: Trump doesn't seem to know that he should consult with
Speaker 1: the Defense Department before making broad sweeping proclamations like this.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's somewhat of a good and a bad
Speaker 1: thing that we have um that there are officials in
Speaker 1: the government that know what their roles are and know
Speaker 1: how the system works. On the flip side, we've seen
Speaker 1: um Jeff Sessions, who has been planning for a role
Speaker 1: like his current one as Attorney General for all his life,
Speaker 1: and he he knows how to run it well. And
Speaker 1: that's that's that's bad for some of us who think
Speaker 1: that he's using that power in a way that's destructive
Speaker 1: to attempts to reform a criminal justice system, for example.
Speaker 1: But on the flip side, it's it's he's one of
Speaker 1: the he's an adult in the room, and it seems
Speaker 1: like the Defense Department is as well. In a check
Speaker 1: on the sort of surprising impulses we're seeing. Emanate from
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania and gene Marine General Joe Dunford who wrote that message,
Speaker 1: he said, quote, we will continue to treat all of
Speaker 1: our personnel with respect. Is there a hint in there?
Speaker 1: Possibly it is, you know, whateveryone thinks of this see
Speaker 1: and some of the other policies pursued by the Trump administration.
Speaker 1: There is a basic question of competence. Uh. You know,
Speaker 1: you don't have uh executive orders on immigration drafted by
Speaker 1: the former head of Bright part News. Uh you know,
Speaker 1: the does will tend not to be affected. You don't
Speaker 1: announce a sweeping change to military policy that has an
Speaker 1: impacts on uh many people's lives over Twitter. Uh you
Speaker 1: know it's uh, it's it's really it's tough to keep
Speaker 1: up with this. It seems that it's not enough to
Speaker 1: check in the morning in the evening anymore. You have
Speaker 1: to be checking constantly throughout the day. So finally, we
Speaker 1: just have about a minute here, Aims, I'm going to
Speaker 1: ask you how long do you think Jeff Sessions will
Speaker 1: last in his off us. Uh. We we have sort
Speaker 1: of a running debt on that around the office. I
Speaker 1: think the really interesting thing about Jeff Sessions he comes
Speaker 1: to this position after you know, a long career in
Speaker 1: the Senate love it or hate him, or love him
Speaker 1: or hate him, where he made a lot of friends.
Speaker 1: He's leaned him at Senate courtesy. We saw in the
Speaker 1: in the Russia hearing where you know, called out over
Speaker 1: specific misstatements, he'd say you know, my colleagues here know
Speaker 1: that I've always been honest with them, and we can
Speaker 1: we we can. I expect that he can use that
Speaker 1: same cache to protect himself in this job, unfortunately for
Speaker 1: a lot of damage. And we're almost out of time.
Speaker 1: Are you going to give me a number? Well, last
Speaker 1: through this administration? Will he last through the end of administration?
Speaker 1: I think he will, alright, Jean, yes or no on
Speaker 1: that one. Uh, he will last till the end of
Speaker 1: the administration. Whenever that is all right, Great answers for
Speaker 1: both of you. That's Gene Healy, vice president of the
Speaker 1: CATO in Student Aims grow at Counsel at the Brennan
Speaker 1: Center of Justice.