WEBVTT - Graham Promises `Holy Hell’ if Trump Fires Sessions (Audio) 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.159 Attorney General Jeff's Sessions is in El Salvador for planned 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:07.440 meetings on fighting gang violence and illegal immigration from Central America, 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:10.080 But will he still have his job when he comes back. 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:13.320 President Trump has been engaged in a campaign of public 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:16.680 humiliation of the top law enforcement official in the country, 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:20.840 one that is unprecedented. Yet Trump has been unwilling to 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:24.520 use those two words he's so famous for, You're fired, 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:28.760 and his campaign seems to be backfiring. Senate Republicans are 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.680 furious at the treatment of one of their respected colleagues, 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.440 and a number of Republicans have called White House officials 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:38.480 and even Trump personally to warn him against removing Sessions. 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:42.240 According to a Senate geopaid who asked not to be identified, 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:46.280 last night, Senate Judiciary Chairman Chuck Grasslely tweeted there was 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:49.040 no way his panel would consider the nomination of a 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:53.320 replacement for Sessions, and this morning, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:58.240 of South Carolina issued a more far reaching warning, there 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:02.720 will be no confirmation hearing for new Attorney general. Uh 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:06.760 if Jeff Session is fired, there will be holy Hill 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:10.600 to pay. Any effort to go after Mueller could be 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:13.800 the beginning of the ends at the Trump presidency. Unless 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:17.119 Mueller did something wrong right now, I have no reason 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:21.520 to believe that Mueller is compromised, and Sessions has shown 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:25.440 no signs of stepping down. My guests are Aims Growert, 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:29.480 counsel at the Brennan Center for Justice, and Jane Healy, 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:33.840 vice president of the Cato Institute. Aims presidents have been 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:38.280 angry with their ages before. Bill Clinton reportedly furious with 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:42.280 Attorney General Janet Reno over her decision to expand Special 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:46.679 Prosecutor Ken Stars authority in the Monica Lewinsky matter, but 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:49.559 there was no public statement or attempt to fire Reno. 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:54.640 What are the consequences of the president attempting to or 0:01:54.680 --> 0:02:02.360 appearing to interfere in the activities of the Justice Department? Actually, 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:09.200 all right, okay, we're having a problem with his line. 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:12.320 We'll try to reconnect him. Let's go to Jean Healy 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.720 with that question. Gene, what are the consequences of the 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:21.239 president appearing to interfere in the activities of the Justice Department. Well, 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:25.000 it could be very far reaching, up to an including impeachment. 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:31.240 We had the first article of impeachment formally introduced in 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:34.440 the in the House two weeks ago by a representative 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:38.640 Brad Sherman, and it's based on obstruction of justice in 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:43.600 the Comy firing. It's unlikely to go anywhere right about now, 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:48.760 but it's it's become increasingly difficult to tell. The Trump 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:54.280 administration comes at you fast. That's certainly true. I understand 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:57.760 that Aims is back with us Aims. The President has 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:02.480 also publicly criticized Depp, the Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, acting 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:08.000 FBI Director Andrew McCabe. He's criticized the intelligence agencies. Of course, 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:12.840 he fired James Comey. What are the consequences to the 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:18.000 public who sees this of politicizing the people who handle 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:22.880 the nation's security and law enforcement. Sure, thanks for having 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:24.840 me first. I'm so glad we were able to reconnect 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:28.080 um this. Actually, it puts groups like the Brennan Center 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:29.960 in a tough position because I think if you know 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:32.480 our work, you know we're no huge fan of how 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.400 Attorney General Jeff Sessions has been managing his Jeffice Department. 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:38.760 But the flip side of that is we're we're also 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:41.760 we also stand by the rule of law. We don't 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:44.800 want to see a situation where an attorney General like 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.520 Jeff Sessions, is fired for anything other than his performance, 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:50.880 which we view them view there are problems with and 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:53.200 I do think it risks undermining the rule of law 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:59.680 and Americans trusts and their government gene. The Washington Post 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:03.000 reply order that Trump has discussed with advisors the possibility 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:06.960 of avoiding Senate confirmation of another a G by trying 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.240 to install a new a G through a recess appointment 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.240 if Sessions were to resign or be fired at the 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:16.720 White House denied that, calling it fake news. But Senate 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.520 Republicans have been holding proform as sessions every few days, 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.120 haven't they? When the Senate is otherwise in recess? Will 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:29.040 you explain what they're doing? Well, Yeah, this is something 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.800 that came up in the Obama administration, and it's a 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:38.800 it's a good in in hindsight that the President does 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:42.960 not have the power to declare UH the Senate actually 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:47.360 in session UH during these proformer sessions. This should be 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:52.960 an obstacle to UH. To Trump trying to recess a 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:58.320 point a new attorney general. He seems to think that 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:01.240 the role of the Attorney General is to be his 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:06.080 UH sort of Tom Hagen, his counciliary and run interference 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.159 for him, and that's not the proper role of the 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:13.920 attorney general. And uh I there are reports that he 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:19.480 will get serious pushback from Republicans if he even thinks 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.400 about trying this gambit. I've been talking to Ames Growit, 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:25.880 counsel at the Brennan Center for Justice, and Jeane Healy, 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:31.280 vice president of the Cato Institute, about the standing feud 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:36.080 between President Trump and his Attorney General Jeff Sessions. There 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.520 have been no tweets this morning, so that's one thing 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:46.000 um Ames Graham Lindsay Graham. Congressman Lindsay Grant said in 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.240 a separate interview on Fox News that he's preparing new 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.960 legislation that would require a dismissal of the Special Counsel 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.359 to be reviewed by the courts to protect against the 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:02.000 abuse of power by anyone. If he gets that legislation 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:05.520 on the floor, will will he be able to get 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.520 the votes for it? Do you think That's a pretty 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.000 interesting question, And I think it will be a big 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:14.920 test for where exactly a Republicans Democrats see their role 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:17.880 in this process. I think that could be a good 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.560 way to make sure that um things don't go out 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:23.120 of hand very quickly. If Trump gets his way and 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.680 is able to either four Sessions out or directly fire him. Um, 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:28.760 I think that will test a lot of We've seen 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:30.520 tests for a lot of our institutions, and this will 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.600 be just one more. Geane, what's your opinion about whether 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:38.000 he could get that signed, well, not signed, actually not signed. 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:39.880 You would have to have I'm just I'm just thinking 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:44.440 it through now. The signing might be a problem. Well, look, 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:49.960 you know, short of legislation, they're they're consequences for these 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:53.400 sorts of behaviors. I mean, the irony is that he 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:56.760 seems to think that the Trump seems to think that 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:00.839 it was sessions refusal that got him into this as uh, 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:07.479 and it wasn't. It was firing Comey using uh deputy 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:12.960 attorned General Rosenstein's cover, uh and then admitting on national 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.680 TV a couple of days later that there that the 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:18.320 reason he the real reason he did it was over 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:21.680 the quote this Russia thing. I mean that that pretty 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:26.040 much made the appointment of a Special Council almost inevitable. 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:30.800 And uh, you know, you you're seeing reports that you know, 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:36.040 he's asked advisors about his ability to pardon friends and 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:40.360 associates and even himself. Uh, any number of these things 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:44.760 could be attempted, but I think they're there will be 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:49.640 and should be political consequences for them, up to and 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:54.400 possibly including impeachment if he decides to go that route. 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:58.960 Games let's turn to that surprise announcement on Twitter yesterday 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:04.440 that has many people questioning what's going on for the 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:09.440 thousands of transgender people currently serving, where Trump said that 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.880 they would not be serving and the Defense Department came 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:17.400 out with a statement saying that they would that. Um, 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:19.640 the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs made it clear to 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.640 Top Press that there will be no changes now and 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:27.200 that President Trump has to give direction to the Defense Secretary, 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:33.400 and the secretary has issued implementation guidance. What is the 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:39.240 president's power as far as enacting something like that. Yeah, 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.320 I think, like so many stories we've seen in this 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:43.640 in this new Trump era, there there are two levels 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:45.839 for this one. There there's the one, there's the stubsitive 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.440 problem that it's it's it's a flap in the face 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:50.439 to the many transgendered people who served with honor in 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:53.720 the military. And then the second one is, Uh, President 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:55.880 Trump doesn't seem to know that he should consult with 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:59.160 the Defense Department before making broad sweeping proclamations like this. 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:02.800 It's it's it's somewhat of a good and a bad 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.440 thing that we have um that there are officials in 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.120 the government that know what their roles are and know 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:10.280 how the system works. On the flip side, we've seen 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.560 um Jeff Sessions, who has been planning for a role 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:15.760 like his current one as Attorney General for all his life, 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:17.960 and he he knows how to run it well. And 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.559 that's that's that's bad for some of us who think 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.479 that he's using that power in a way that's destructive 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:26.319 to attempts to reform a criminal justice system, for example. 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:30.480 But on the flip side, it's it's he's one of 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:32.840 the he's an adult in the room, and it seems 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:35.160 like the Defense Department is as well. In a check 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:38.600 on the sort of surprising impulses we're seeing. Emanate from 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:45.160 Pennsylvania and gene Marine General Joe Dunford who wrote that message, 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.640 he said, quote, we will continue to treat all of 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:52.400 our personnel with respect. Is there a hint in there? 0:09:54.200 --> 0:10:00.400 Possibly it is, you know, whateveryone thinks of this see 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:05.200 and some of the other policies pursued by the Trump administration. 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:09.040 There is a basic question of competence. Uh. You know, 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:16.720 you don't have uh executive orders on immigration drafted by 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:20.240 the former head of Bright part News. Uh you know, 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:23.240 the does will tend not to be affected. You don't 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:29.080 announce a sweeping change to military policy that has an 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:34.600 impacts on uh many people's lives over Twitter. Uh you 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:40.440 know it's uh, it's it's really it's tough to keep 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:46.760 up with this. It seems that it's not enough to 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:48.760 check in the morning in the evening anymore. You have 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:52.880 to be checking constantly throughout the day. So finally, we 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:55.839 just have about a minute here, Aims, I'm going to 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:59.079 ask you how long do you think Jeff Sessions will 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:02.760 last in his off us. Uh. We we have sort 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:05.160 of a running debt on that around the office. I 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.400 think the really interesting thing about Jeff Sessions he comes 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:10.840 to this position after you know, a long career in 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:12.560 the Senate love it or hate him, or love him 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:14.040 or hate him, where he made a lot of friends. 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:16.960 He's leaned him at Senate courtesy. We saw in the 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.640 in the Russia hearing where you know, called out over 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:22.000 specific misstatements, he'd say you know, my colleagues here know 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:24.840 that I've always been honest with them, and we can 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.000 we we can. I expect that he can use that 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:31.760 same cache to protect himself in this job, unfortunately for 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:34.680 a lot of damage. And we're almost out of time. 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.600 Are you going to give me a number? Well, last 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.679 through this administration? Will he last through the end of administration? 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.400 I think he will, alright, Jean, yes or no on 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.440 that one. Uh, he will last till the end of 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:52.079 the administration. Whenever that is all right, Great answers for 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:54.559 both of you. That's Gene Healy, vice president of the 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:57.520 CATO in Student Aims grow at Counsel at the Brennan 0:11:57.640 --> 0:11:59.280 Center of Justice.