1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,159 Speaker 1: Attorney General Jeff's Sessions is in El Salvador for planned 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: meetings on fighting gang violence and illegal immigration from Central America, 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: But will he still have his job when he comes back. 4 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: President Trump has been engaged in a campaign of public 5 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: humiliation of the top law enforcement official in the country, 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: one that is unprecedented. Yet Trump has been unwilling to 7 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: use those two words he's so famous for, You're fired, 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: and his campaign seems to be backfiring. Senate Republicans are 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: furious at the treatment of one of their respected colleagues, 10 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: and a number of Republicans have called White House officials 11 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,480 Speaker 1: and even Trump personally to warn him against removing Sessions. 12 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: According to a Senate geopaid who asked not to be identified, 13 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: last night, Senate Judiciary Chairman Chuck Grasslely tweeted there was 14 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: no way his panel would consider the nomination of a 15 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: replacement for Sessions, and this morning, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham 16 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: of South Carolina issued a more far reaching warning, there 17 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: will be no confirmation hearing for new Attorney general. Uh 18 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: if Jeff Session is fired, there will be holy Hill 19 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: to pay. Any effort to go after Mueller could be 20 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: the beginning of the ends at the Trump presidency. Unless 21 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 1: Mueller did something wrong right now, I have no reason 22 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: to believe that Mueller is compromised, and Sessions has shown 23 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: no signs of stepping down. My guests are Aims Growert, 24 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: counsel at the Brennan Center for Justice, and Jane Healy, 25 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: vice president of the Cato Institute. Aims presidents have been 26 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: angry with their ages before. Bill Clinton reportedly furious with 27 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: Attorney General Janet Reno over her decision to expand Special 28 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: Prosecutor Ken Stars authority in the Monica Lewinsky matter, but 29 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,559 Speaker 1: there was no public statement or attempt to fire Reno. 30 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: What are the consequences of the president attempting to or 31 00:01:54,680 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: appearing to interfere in the activities of the Justice Department? Actually, 32 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: all right, okay, we're having a problem with his line. 33 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: We'll try to reconnect him. Let's go to Jean Healy 34 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: with that question. Gene, what are the consequences of the 35 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 1: president appearing to interfere in the activities of the Justice Department. Well, 36 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: it could be very far reaching, up to an including impeachment. 37 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: We had the first article of impeachment formally introduced in 38 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: the in the House two weeks ago by a representative 39 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: Brad Sherman, and it's based on obstruction of justice in 40 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: the Comy firing. It's unlikely to go anywhere right about now, 41 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: but it's it's become increasingly difficult to tell. The Trump 42 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: administration comes at you fast. That's certainly true. I understand 43 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: that Aims is back with us Aims. The President has 44 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: also publicly criticized Depp, the Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, acting 45 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: FBI Director Andrew McCabe. He's criticized the intelligence agencies. Of course, 46 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: he fired James Comey. What are the consequences to the 47 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: public who sees this of politicizing the people who handle 48 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: the nation's security and law enforcement. Sure, thanks for having 49 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: me first. I'm so glad we were able to reconnect 50 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: um this. Actually, it puts groups like the Brennan Center 51 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: in a tough position because I think if you know 52 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: our work, you know we're no huge fan of how 53 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: Attorney General Jeff Sessions has been managing his Jeffice Department. 54 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: But the flip side of that is we're we're also 55 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: we also stand by the rule of law. We don't 56 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: want to see a situation where an attorney General like 57 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: Jeff Sessions, is fired for anything other than his performance, 58 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: which we view them view there are problems with and 59 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: I do think it risks undermining the rule of law 60 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: and Americans trusts and their government gene. The Washington Post 61 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: reply order that Trump has discussed with advisors the possibility 62 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: of avoiding Senate confirmation of another a G by trying 63 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: to install a new a G through a recess appointment 64 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: if Sessions were to resign or be fired at the 65 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: White House denied that, calling it fake news. But Senate 66 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: Republicans have been holding proform as sessions every few days, 67 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: haven't they? When the Senate is otherwise in recess? Will 68 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: you explain what they're doing? Well, Yeah, this is something 69 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: that came up in the Obama administration, and it's a 70 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: it's a good in in hindsight that the President does 71 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: not have the power to declare UH the Senate actually 72 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: in session UH during these proformer sessions. This should be 73 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: an obstacle to UH. To Trump trying to recess a 74 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: point a new attorney general. He seems to think that 75 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: the role of the Attorney General is to be his 76 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: UH sort of Tom Hagen, his counciliary and run interference 77 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 1: for him, and that's not the proper role of the 78 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: attorney general. And uh I there are reports that he 79 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: will get serious pushback from Republicans if he even thinks 80 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: about trying this gambit. I've been talking to Ames Growit, 81 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: counsel at the Brennan Center for Justice, and Jeane Healy, 82 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 1: vice president of the Cato Institute, about the standing feud 83 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: between President Trump and his Attorney General Jeff Sessions. There 84 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: have been no tweets this morning, so that's one thing 85 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: um Ames Graham Lindsay Graham. Congressman Lindsay Grant said in 86 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: a separate interview on Fox News that he's preparing new 87 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: legislation that would require a dismissal of the Special Counsel 88 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,359 Speaker 1: to be reviewed by the courts to protect against the 89 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: abuse of power by anyone. If he gets that legislation 90 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: on the floor, will will he be able to get 91 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: the votes for it? Do you think That's a pretty 92 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: interesting question, And I think it will be a big 93 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: test for where exactly a Republicans Democrats see their role 94 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: in this process. I think that could be a good 95 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: way to make sure that um things don't go out 96 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: of hand very quickly. If Trump gets his way and 97 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: is able to either four Sessions out or directly fire him. Um, 98 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: I think that will test a lot of We've seen 99 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: tests for a lot of our institutions, and this will 100 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: be just one more. Geane, what's your opinion about whether 101 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: he could get that signed, well, not signed, actually not signed. 102 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: You would have to have I'm just I'm just thinking 103 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: it through now. The signing might be a problem. Well, look, 104 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: you know, short of legislation, they're they're consequences for these 105 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: sorts of behaviors. I mean, the irony is that he 106 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: seems to think that the Trump seems to think that 107 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: it was sessions refusal that got him into this as uh, 108 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: and it wasn't. It was firing Comey using uh deputy 109 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: attorned General Rosenstein's cover, uh and then admitting on national 110 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: TV a couple of days later that there that the 111 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: reason he the real reason he did it was over 112 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: the quote this Russia thing. I mean that that pretty 113 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: much made the appointment of a Special Council almost inevitable. 114 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: And uh, you know, you you're seeing reports that you know, 115 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: he's asked advisors about his ability to pardon friends and 116 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: associates and even himself. Uh, any number of these things 117 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: could be attempted, but I think they're there will be 118 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: and should be political consequences for them, up to and 119 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: possibly including impeachment if he decides to go that route. 120 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: Games let's turn to that surprise announcement on Twitter yesterday 121 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: that has many people questioning what's going on for the 122 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: thousands of transgender people currently serving, where Trump said that 123 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: they would not be serving and the Defense Department came 124 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: out with a statement saying that they would that. Um, 125 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs made it clear to 126 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: Top Press that there will be no changes now and 127 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: that President Trump has to give direction to the Defense Secretary, 128 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: and the secretary has issued implementation guidance. What is the 129 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: president's power as far as enacting something like that. Yeah, 130 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: I think, like so many stories we've seen in this 131 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: in this new Trump era, there there are two levels 132 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 1: for this one. There there's the one, there's the stubsitive 133 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: problem that it's it's it's a flap in the face 134 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,439 Speaker 1: to the many transgendered people who served with honor in 135 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: the military. And then the second one is, Uh, President 136 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: Trump doesn't seem to know that he should consult with 137 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: the Defense Department before making broad sweeping proclamations like this. 138 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: It's it's it's somewhat of a good and a bad 139 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: thing that we have um that there are officials in 140 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: the government that know what their roles are and know 141 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: how the system works. On the flip side, we've seen 142 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: um Jeff Sessions, who has been planning for a role 143 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: like his current one as Attorney General for all his life, 144 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: and he he knows how to run it well. And 145 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: that's that's that's bad for some of us who think 146 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,479 Speaker 1: that he's using that power in a way that's destructive 147 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 1: to attempts to reform a criminal justice system, for example. 148 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: But on the flip side, it's it's he's one of 149 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: the he's an adult in the room, and it seems 150 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: like the Defense Department is as well. In a check 151 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: on the sort of surprising impulses we're seeing. Emanate from 152 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania and gene Marine General Joe Dunford who wrote that message, 153 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: he said, quote, we will continue to treat all of 154 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: our personnel with respect. Is there a hint in there? 155 00:09:54,200 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: Possibly it is, you know, whateveryone thinks of this see 156 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: and some of the other policies pursued by the Trump administration. 157 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: There is a basic question of competence. Uh. You know, 158 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: you don't have uh executive orders on immigration drafted by 159 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: the former head of Bright part News. Uh you know, 160 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: the does will tend not to be affected. You don't 161 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: announce a sweeping change to military policy that has an 162 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: impacts on uh many people's lives over Twitter. Uh you 163 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: know it's uh, it's it's really it's tough to keep 164 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: up with this. It seems that it's not enough to 165 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: check in the morning in the evening anymore. You have 166 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: to be checking constantly throughout the day. So finally, we 167 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 1: just have about a minute here, Aims, I'm going to 168 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 1: ask you how long do you think Jeff Sessions will 169 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: last in his off us. Uh. We we have sort 170 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: of a running debt on that around the office. I 171 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: think the really interesting thing about Jeff Sessions he comes 172 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: to this position after you know, a long career in 173 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: the Senate love it or hate him, or love him 174 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: or hate him, where he made a lot of friends. 175 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: He's leaned him at Senate courtesy. We saw in the 176 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: in the Russia hearing where you know, called out over 177 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: specific misstatements, he'd say you know, my colleagues here know 178 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: that I've always been honest with them, and we can 179 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: we we can. I expect that he can use that 180 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: same cache to protect himself in this job, unfortunately for 181 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: a lot of damage. And we're almost out of time. 182 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: Are you going to give me a number? Well, last 183 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: through this administration? Will he last through the end of administration? 184 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: I think he will, alright, Jean, yes or no on 185 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: that one. Uh, he will last till the end of 186 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 1: the administration. Whenever that is all right, Great answers for 187 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 1: both of you. That's Gene Healy, vice president of the 188 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: CATO in Student Aims grow at Counsel at the Brennan 189 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: Center of Justice.