1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Growing up in the 2 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: rural South, you spend quite a bit of time out 3 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: in the woods. I come from a family that like 4 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: to hunt, and I'm not talking necessarily for a big game. 5 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: I'm talking about for survival. My grandfather I swear that 6 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: man never met a squirrel he wouldn't eat. And I 7 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: know that's for some folks that are listening to this, 8 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: they might find that. I don't know, I don't know 9 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:44,919 Speaker 1: if the word were pugnant fits in there, but some 10 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: people would not want to do that. Some people call 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: the squirrel's tree rats, But man would take a squirreling 12 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: rice any day over chicken and rice, I think. But 13 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: you know, when you're when you're out in the woods, 14 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: many times you not only appreciate the beauty, but you 15 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: also appreciate the things that people do out there that 16 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: you would otherwise prefer that they not do. And you know, 17 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: one of the biggest things is dumping garbage and dumping 18 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: old appliances. You come across those sorts of things many times, 19 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: and it really does detract from the beauty of nature. 20 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 1: But when you're out in the woods and you're doing 21 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: a job, as a road crew and you're working for 22 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: local government, you have to go out and identify illegal 23 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: dumping sites, and that happens with great frequency, and you know, 24 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: people want these things removed because they're dangerous. You don't 25 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: know what people are throwing away. But in the case 26 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: we're going to discuss, a road crew found one of 27 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: the most precious things in the world that so one 28 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: had treated like garbage and essentially tossed a little angel 29 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: away and abandoned her out in the middle of a lonely, 30 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: lonely stretch of road in a forest. I'm Joseph Scott 31 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body Back. I hate the story. 32 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: I hate this. I'd absolutely detested I you know, I 33 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: cover so many cases with a lot of other folks, 34 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: and the adults those cases are, they're tough, many of 35 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,119 Speaker 1: them are. But when I find cases in particular where 36 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: somebody takes a precious little child and they treat them 37 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: like garbage and they throw them away, probably many times 38 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: after long periods of abuse and those sorts of things, 39 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: it breaks my heart because I know how many people 40 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: out there would love to have a child and have 41 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: struggled for years and years to have a child. And 42 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: I've often said, and I'd get angry many times, even 43 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: when I was an investigator. I remember having this discussion 44 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: with my wife Kim. I'd come home and I'd be 45 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: in tears. I really would, after working child deaks and 46 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 1: I would say, why, you know, why didn't they just 47 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 1: bring them to me? They no questions asked, just bring 48 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: them to our doorstep. 49 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 2: This investigation began on December twenty first, nineteen eighty eight. 50 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: Aware County, Georgia road crew comes across an illegal dumping 51 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 2: area just off the road. In that dump area, the 52 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: crew finds a console TV. Inside the TV is a suitcase. Now, 53 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: as the road crew picks up the suitcase, it's heavier 54 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 2: than it should be if it just had clothes and 55 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 2: toiletries in it, so they opened it up. They find 56 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 2: the lifelong body of a small girl encased in concrete. 57 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 2: Ware County Sheriff's office is called and they call for 58 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: help from the GBI. The GBI medical examiner determines the 59 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 2: death as a homicide, but the cause of death is undetermined. 60 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: There was one piece of evidence found near the console 61 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 2: TV that suggests a connection to Albany, Georgia. Nearly one 62 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 2: hundred miles away. Now the child in the cement is 63 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 2: not identified and becomes known as Ware Counties Baby Jane Doe. 64 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 2: That investigation that began on December twenty first, nineteen eighty eight, 65 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 2: continues for the next thirty five years. Finally, in twenty 66 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 2: twenty two, a local TV station does a report on 67 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,679 Speaker 2: the anniversary of the day Baby Jane Doe was found. 68 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 2: They update the public on what little details they have, 69 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: and they offer up a five thousand dollars reward for 70 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 2: information leading to the arrest and conviction of the person 71 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: or persons that threw Baby Jane Doe away like garbage. 72 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: A viewer watching the broadcast calls in a tip that 73 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 2: leads investigators to determine Baby Jane Doe is actually Kenyatta Odom, 74 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 2: a five year old little girl they called Kiki because 75 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: a woman was watching the news and saw this report 76 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: on the anniversary and said, I think I know who 77 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 2: that is. She never believed the story that her friend 78 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 2: told her about five year old Kiki. The mother had 79 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 2: said the Kiki had moved and was living with her father. 80 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 2: The neighbor didn't believe the story. Once you have identified 81 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 2: this child, now it's time to find out who is 82 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 2: the person that did this to this child and why 83 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 2: was nobody looking for her? 84 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: The idea that you when you're talking about in casing 85 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: something you know, in concrete, this rises to a level 86 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: of people really thinking about this, putting thought into this, 87 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: because what do you have to do. Well, first off, 88 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: you have to prep the concrete. You know, you just 89 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: don't go out and buy it wet. You have to 90 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: prep the concret in order to utilize it to its 91 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: fullest potential. Then you have to have something to contain 92 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: seid concrete in. And obviously you've got to have placement 93 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: for the body. And why are you going about doing 94 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: it this way? I don't I don't understand, and I 95 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: can only imagine at the time, and this discovery occurred 96 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: in arguably one of the most isolated and rural areas 97 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 1: in the state of Georgia, down in southwest Georgia, in 98 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: a town called Millwood that's actually in Ware County, Georgia, 99 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: and very very rural, isolated. Lots of dirt roads to 100 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: go down, lots of thickly forested areas to go down, 101 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: and there's there's no life in that area. And when 102 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: I say life, I'm talking about you know, you don't 103 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: have a bunch of houses around there. It it smacks 104 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: as somebody that wanted to get as far away with 105 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: these remains and discard them. And I guess their thought 106 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: was was that if if you go to an illegal 107 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: dumping site, no one's gonna pay any attention to it. 108 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: But you know, there's you. You never count on the unknown, 109 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: you know, you because you can't see that, you know. 110 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: I think if you're a perpetrator, you can't think that, 111 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: oh well, there might be a road crew that comes by, 112 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: and I don't know about you. I've got I've got 113 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: a couple of people that will roll by our house 114 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: where we live, and they show up in pickup trucks. 115 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: And if you've dumped, you know, some kind of something 116 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: from your home, like you know, uh, it's furniture or 117 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: maybe a piece of furniture you won't just hauled off 118 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: or whatever, They're gonna stop and they're gonna look at it, 119 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: you know, before the truck ever hauls it away, because 120 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: they might they might be able to source it in 121 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: a different way, or you know, collect it and fix 122 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: it up or something like that. And those people exist, 123 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: and they're out there and they're riding around, and I 124 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: think that most people that perpetrate such a horrible crime 125 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: like we're talking about today, they don't count on that. 126 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: Their idea, I think, is to get as much distance 127 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: between themselves and the corpus delecti, because that is the 128 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: body of evidence there. And interestingly enough, I was just 129 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: having this discussion day with my students and I teach 130 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: a medical legal death investigation class at JSU, and I 131 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: ask them, my class is to envision when we're working 132 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: a case, and you're working a death case, obviously, envision 133 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: the body as being the hub of a wagon wheel, 134 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: and everything else radiates out from it, all other bits 135 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: of evidence and you know, things like that. But the 136 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: body is a central piece of evidence here, and you know, 137 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: you never know how far those kind of radial spokes 138 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: are going to extend out from a body. You know, 139 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: you've got this central little body that's there, encased in 140 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: cement or concrete, and you think, wow, you know, what 141 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: was our point of origin? You know, where did she 142 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: come from? 143 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: We know the body was found on December twenty first, 144 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight, but we don't know when the child 145 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 2: was placed in that location. 146 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: You made a point earlier about this this this witness, 147 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: this friend so called of the family, and she asked 148 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: the mother about you know, where the child is, And 149 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 1: as investigators, you have to go back to that last 150 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: point of contact because that might be Look, we're talking 151 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: about a little child. Many people, you know, don't don't 152 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: think about the whereabouts of a child. If you don't 153 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,839 Speaker 1: have a closely knit family, for instance, or you're really 154 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: tied in with your neighbors, that might that one person 155 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: and now it's playing out right here before us, that 156 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: one person has that recall and they might be the 157 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: only person to ever remembered the child. So you the 158 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: point that I think that needs to be made here 159 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: is that how do we know how long this child 160 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: had been deceased or how long had she been missing 161 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: before someone actually put eyes on this location in nineteen 162 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: eighty eight, which you know, you go back to the 163 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: fog of toime. 164 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 3: Man. 165 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: I don't know about you. I can't remember nineteen eighty eight. 166 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: I have no way of recall relative to that because 167 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: so much stuff my memory is so layered now since 168 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: that period of time in my life. 169 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 3: A lot of the eighties are like that for me. 170 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 2: But I'm thinking when the body was labeled as baby 171 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: Jane Doe found in cement inside a suitcase inside a 172 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 2: television console in illegal dump area. But Joe, could you 173 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 2: determine right then about how long the child had been dead? 174 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: Yeah? I think that to a certain degree you could. 175 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: And this is a painstaking process, Dave, when you have 176 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: an encasement like this, and I've worked I think maybe 177 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: two over the course of my career. First off, just 178 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: from a logistics standpoint, I actually worked one where we 179 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: had a remain that was in a block of concrete. 180 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: And this is not something that you're not just going 181 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: to put it into the back of the Corners van 182 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: and haul it down to the County morgue. It logistically 183 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: it's a nightmare, and how are you going to process it, 184 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: move it? About that sort of thing. So I think 185 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: that just because the body is encased, I think that 186 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 1: it's really important for people to understand there's no guarantee 187 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: that you're going to be able to tell specifically how 188 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: long they've been in there, because when you encase a 189 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: dead body in concrete or maybe even something else like 190 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: a suitcase, you're not just encasing the body, but you're 191 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: encasing everything, even at a microbial level, that inhabits that 192 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: same environment with that body, and there's no telling what 193 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: you're going to find when you finally chip it all 194 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: the way. Just because you have a body that is 195 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: encased in concrete doesn't mean that the body is in 196 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: total in case the concrete. So what I mean by 197 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 1: that is that depending upon the skill level, the resources, 198 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: the tools, the experience that a perpetrator might have relative 199 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: to using some kind of medium like concrete, not everything 200 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: that's going to be covered up. Because I think a 201 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: big question that people would ask is, for instance, in 202 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: Kenyati's case, you got a suitcase, Yes, you've got concrete, 203 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 1: but how do you know that there's a body in concrete. Well, 204 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: there's no guarantee that the encasement itself completely obscures everything 205 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: you might have. And forgive me for saying this, elements 206 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: of the body that are extruding from that block of concrete. 207 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: There might be hair, there might be clothing, There could 208 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: even be an appendage that's hanging out from there, Dave. 209 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: So there's no guarantee that everything's going to be obscure. 210 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 2: We don't know how the child died, or we don't 211 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: have any of that information and thirty five years later 212 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 2: it's a little more blerry. 213 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 3: So where would you go with the body like that? 214 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: That's an excellent question. Let me go back to my 215 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: earlier comment about the body that's in like a huge 216 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: block of concrete. That's something that on site that you're 217 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: going to have to free the body up from that location. 218 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: But you're talking about the body of a small child, 219 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: a five year old. All right, this is portable. So 220 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: what would have happened is that the body in total, 221 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: contained within the suitcase would have been transported to the 222 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: local forensic science center. And there's a couple in Georgia 223 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: that in the GBI Georgia Bureau of Investigation and State 224 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: Medical Examiner would have handled this case. There used to 225 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: be a lab down in a town called Moultrie, which 226 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: is in far south Georgia. That would be my big 227 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: guess at this point in time that the body would 228 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: be taken to a location like that. But here's here's 229 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: the the interesting piece to this is that when you 230 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: show up to a morgue, we have instruments within the 231 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: morgue where we're working with soft tissue and bone. We 232 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: don't have construction tools all right, So how do you 233 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: how do you free a body up? You know, that's 234 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: encased in cement. And here's the other thing, and this 235 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: is a big piece to this. If you know that 236 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: there is a body contained within it, first thing you're 237 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: gonna need to do is take X rays and you 238 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: have to be able to account for the density of 239 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: the concrete. You know, where are you going to be 240 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: able to see, if anything when you X ray this? 241 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: And then secondly, you have to figure out a path 242 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: to get to the body without destroying any kind of evidence. 243 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: And you talk about an uphill battle because you don't 244 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: you're kind of flying blind. Just think about that just 245 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: for a second. So you've got this, this precious little 246 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: angel that's encased in concrete. Uh, first off, what kind 247 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: of tools are you going to use? Do you, as 248 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: as a forensic scientist, have a skill set where you're 249 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: able to dislodge the body or do you need to 250 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: call in somebody else that actually works with concrete and 251 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: stone and all these sorts of things to be able 252 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: to chip away at this mass that has been created 253 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: that contains the body that you know. They have a 254 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: particular way that they can knock the concrete away and 255 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: get down to what's most valuable here. And you also 256 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: don't know. I think this is another salient point too. 257 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: Let's just say, when they're mixing this up, are there 258 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: other bits of evidence contained within the mixture and are 259 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: you going to obliterate that as you're chipping away. So 260 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 1: as the stuff is being chipped away pulverized, you can't 261 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 1: just take it and throw it in trash, can Dave. 262 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,719 Speaker 1: You have to hold on to every little bit that 263 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 1: comes off the body because contained therein might be an answer. 264 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: And I'm talking about any kind of biological item or 265 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: element that might be left behind. Maybe there might be 266 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: a projectile that's in this stuff. There might be a 267 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: chipped blade, there might be a bit of a hammer 268 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: if something was used as a bludgeon. For all I know, 269 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: somebody may have thumped a cigarette in there, and that 270 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: has happened in what cement or concrete and then it 271 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: dried and you have that encasement that's there adjacent. So 272 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: you can't just like arbitrarily go into this environment with 273 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: a big old hammer and a chisel and start knocking 274 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: everything away. This is something that is painstaking, that takes 275 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: hours and hours and hours to process. 276 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 2: All I can think of is a five year old 277 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,360 Speaker 2: child is in the middle of this, and I've got 278 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 2: to get arouse and find out who did this to 279 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 2: her and put them in jail. 280 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: Look, you and I are both daddies. Yeah, And I 281 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: don't mean to speak for you, but I gotta tell you. 282 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: I want to get to I want to get to 283 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: the heart of the matter as quickly as possible. I want, 284 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 1: and you have to fight that urgency, I think, to 285 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: get to the body as quickly as possible, because you 286 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: know speed sometimes or your pace you're pacing as you're 287 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: processing a scene. And this applies to any scene, but 288 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: in a case like this, you want to get to 289 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: that body, to that element that's contained within there and 290 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: collecting anything you can off of it. And sometimes you 291 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: can you can drive, you know, metaphorically drive right over 292 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: some of the most important evidence that's left behind. So 293 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: you have to really take care as you're moving forward. 294 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 2: Now, let me ask you, because you've got a scene 295 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: where you found you know, it's like those Russian nesting dolls. 296 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, wow, Because you know now. 297 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 2: And we've got an illegal dumping area, so there's going 298 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 2: to be all kinds of stuff out there, and the 299 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 2: one thing they found was the newspaper from all beneath 300 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 2: Georgia about one hundred miles away. 301 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 1: Isn't that something? 302 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 2: This is when you're looking for clues. This is a 303 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 2: big one. 304 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: This is dumb luck. I'm not saying that insultingly. I'm 305 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: just saying it's almost like a wink from God back 306 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty eight, you know, and who would have thought, 307 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: because you know, you brought this up. I mentioned where 308 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: county it's isolated or Millwood is the town that they're saying, 309 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that it's like in downtown Millwood. 310 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: It's out in an area adjacent to Millwood in Ware County. 311 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 3: You go to all of this. 312 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 1: Trouble to encase this precious child in cement and then 313 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: you know, contained in a suitcase, and you're going to 314 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: leave a newspaper out there because you can't imagine Albany. 315 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: I did the calculation from downtown Albany, which is in 316 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: Doughtry County, Georgia, is back to the let me get 317 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: this straight, is back to the southeast of Ware County. 318 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 1: It was like ninety eight point three miles from downtown Albany, 319 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: to downtown Millwood. So what are the and you're going 320 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: to go all this, all this distance and you're going 321 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: to leave a newspaper if somebody is out there and 322 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: and I don't know that the that the road crew 323 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: found the newspaper. It may have been the cops when 324 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: they showed up out there. They're thinking, okay, why in 325 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: the world is there a newspaper here from Albany, Georgia. Well, 326 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: that was a significant lead for them, as it turned out, 327 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: because they're looking to try, you know, geographic placement, and 328 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: they're trying to understand, you know, what's the connection between 329 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: this newspaper. And also when you're looking at something as 330 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: fragile as a newspaper out and exposed in the elements, 331 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: that gives you an idea of timing as well, and 332 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: also the date of the newspaper. You know, when was 333 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: this thing published? When did it come out this particular edition? 334 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: Does it approximate the time when when this child was 335 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: last seen alive? Oh my gosh, that's a big, big 336 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:18,959 Speaker 1: tail there. 337 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 3: Day. 338 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 2: Now you've got to identify who did it. Now you've 339 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 2: got a basic location. Look, but obviously it wasn't enough 340 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 2: of a clue Joe because for thirty five years they've 341 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 2: got this child named baby Jane Doe. I'm wondering basic decomposition. 342 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 2: Does it change inside the cement? Is it different? 343 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: It can retard the process a bit. However, you know, 344 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: as I you know I stated earlier, you're still all 345 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: of the elements that become involved in the process of decomposition. 346 00:21:55,240 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: They're contained within that that cavity because you know, when 347 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: you when you pour concrete around something, you create a 348 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: cavity around the body. So it's not like the concrete 349 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 1: passes through the body and it negates anything that's around it. 350 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: So the one you have to think about this, did 351 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: the little bugs if you will, at microscopic level that 352 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: play havoc on our bodies? Is there enough oxygen for 353 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 1: them to continue doing what they do? Have you frozen 354 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: them in that moment in time and the potential is 355 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: there that you probably haven't and not to mention you know, 356 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: you've got this idea of we talk about two things 357 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: relative to decomposition. 358 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 3: You talk about. 359 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 1: Autolisis, which autosis is It means self auto so it's 360 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: like self digestion, So the breakdown internally of the body. 361 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: And then you have puture fact which generally counts upon 362 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: external factors that are breaking down a body. You know, 363 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: those things from the outside, so still contained within the body, 364 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 1: you have this autolytic changes that are going on. The 365 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: body is going to begin to be compromised and it's 366 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 1: going to be able to break down. And the upside 367 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: is is that when you have containment like this, anything 368 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: that's there, this is aside from decomposition, but anything that 369 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: is there is captured for that moment in time with 370 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 1: that precious little angel, and you might have evidence that's 371 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: going to bear out and give you proof of death. 372 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: I've stood I know I can personally testify to it. 373 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: I've stood over the bodies of dead kids over the 374 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: course of my career, and I could feel I don't know, Dave, 375 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 1: do you ever do you have that moment in time 376 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: where when you're truly angry about something, you can feel 377 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: the rage like rising up within you your head. You 378 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: feel like you have a fever almost and it feels 379 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: like the top of your head is going to blow up. 380 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 1: I had that happen more than what. It's not healthy 381 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: because I don't you know, even as an investigator, you 382 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: don't have ownership over this precious life because you're not 383 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: the caretaker of this child, but you know that somebody 384 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: has abandoned a child, and it makes you angry, It 385 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 1: makes you, it motivates you to want to get things done. 386 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: And the frustrating thing about this and I think that 387 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: probably this is the case with those investigators way back then. 388 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: I know that they wanted to do something, Dave. They 389 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: had to. You can't look at the body of a 390 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,239 Speaker 1: child that's treated like this and not want to solve it. 391 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: But sometimes there are just not answers. You're left you're 392 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: left wanting, you know, from just you know, scientific standpoint, 393 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: there's nothing you can hang your hat on and there's 394 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: no way you can trace it back. But you know, 395 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: thirty years later, over thirty years later, I think that 396 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: maybe maybe there were some answers that were provided. 397 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 2: Thankfully, genetic genealogy has come into play, Joe, And now 398 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 2: this is probably the third or fourth one in the 399 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 2: last year that we have had a chance to cover 400 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: and say, look, you thought you got away with dumping 401 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 2: that baby in the trash canon, you know, outside of 402 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 2: car washing Louisiana, or outside of fast food joined North Carolina. 403 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 2: But you know what we got you. How do you 404 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 2: go back from that call Joe of a neighbor saying, 405 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 2: I think it might be so and so too. Here's 406 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 2: the remains, here's what we've got. Do we have the 407 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 2: skeletal remains that the child there was she buried? 408 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a high probability that she was in fact 409 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: buried maybe in you know, Pottersfield somewhere. I hope you know. 410 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: And this is kind of gas leads, but sometimes when 411 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 1: you have when you have remains that are uh skeletonized 412 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: or even partially skeletonized, what can happen is that. 413 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 3: Is that. 414 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: You can render those skeletal remains so that they're essentially 415 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: cleaned all right, and I mean all soft tissue is gone, 416 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: and you can retain those And I know this is 417 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: horrible stuff, but this is body bags. You render down 418 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: the remains to the point where they are in these 419 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: skeletal components, and they're boxed up, Dave, They're they're boxed up, 420 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,959 Speaker 1: and many times they're placed on a shelf and you 421 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: retain them. And that could happen in this manner. The 422 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 1: saving grace I think here is that if you, if 423 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 1: you did your due diligence, all the way back then 424 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: and you took the appropriate samples, then if there is 425 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: something that is left behind. I don't know that they 426 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: were able to collect a blood from her at that 427 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: point in time, because we would do what used to 428 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 1: be referred to as a and that still do. It's 429 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: called a blood card. And if you have blood, you 430 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: essentially collect a bit of blood and you put a 431 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: drop onto the specially treated card and you retain that 432 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: and you can actually lift a DNA sample off of 433 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: that and in the case of skeleton remain well. One 434 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: of the richest sources from a skeleton of DNA is 435 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: of course the teeth. You know, you can go in 436 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: and extract pulp from that area and draw out DNA 437 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: and do a comparison, you know, And that is in 438 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: fact what I think that we're probably looking at with 439 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: this case. There's at least a probability of that. And 440 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: as here's the thing. Technology caught up with the criminals 441 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: in this particular case, and I think that that's important 442 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: to remain because some people just lose hope. And I 443 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: know because we encounter I get contact about people all 444 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: the time that are looking for answers, you know, regarding 445 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: you know, unsolved cases in their family. This sort of 446 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: thing there you never know on my side of the house. 447 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: At least, I'm not talking about from an investigative, circumstantial 448 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 1: evidence standpoint. I'm talking about from a scientific standpoint. We're 449 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: really at a point in history right now where science 450 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: has literally caught up to the bad guys, and that 451 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 1: that's what we're looking at here, because it was genetic 452 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 1: genealogy that finally gave them answers. But I got it. 453 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: I got to make this point because I know people 454 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: are wondering, well, how how did she die? Well, Dave 455 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: there was. Her body was compromised to the point that 456 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: the only thing that the medical examiner could do at 457 00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,719 Speaker 1: that point in time state medical examiner was rule Kenyata's 458 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,719 Speaker 1: death as a homicide one of the five manners. But 459 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: they said that it was indeterminate relative to the cause 460 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: of death. And the way you work that problem out 461 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: logically in your mind, if you're trying to explain that 462 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: to somebody, well, how can you call this a homicide 463 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: if you don't have a cause of death? Okay, Well 464 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: let's go down this road and let's explore this a 465 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: little bit. How do you explain that this child was 466 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: encased in cement placed you know, that's placed inside of 467 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: a suitcase to begin with, that would contain and obscure 468 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: her body. Then drive her body. I don't think you 469 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: put her on your back and took her all that 470 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: way away from Albany, Georgia and discarded her in an 471 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: old TV console in the middle of nowhere and where, County, Georgia. 472 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: You know, you tell me, I mean, if you're doing 473 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: the person here, there's a high likelihood that this is 474 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: a homicide, all right, because I don't know that you 475 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: have anything else to hang your hat on. And at 476 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: this point in time, this case has not gone to trial. 477 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: You know, this is waiting to be adjudicated. But they, 478 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: the state medical examiner, did in fact rule this as 479 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: a homicide. And that's going to be that's going to 480 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: be tough. I think that's going to be one of 481 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: the big questions for any defense attorney to ask in 482 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: this particular case, well, how do you note this was 483 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: a homicide? How do you know that she didn't just die? 484 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: And they were so stricken with grief that they didn't 485 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: have money for a funeral, so they decided to, you know, 486 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: to take her to a junk pile and discard her. Okay, 487 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: And you know, we wanted to so memorialize our little 488 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: angel that we took her all the way out to 489 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: a junk pile one hundred miles away and dumped her 490 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: body in an old, abandoned TV console. 491 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 2: I just for the life of me can't find any 492 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 2: way of even being able to understand that. 493 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: No, I can't either. But here's here's the beautiful part 494 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: of this, because you know, for years and years I 495 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: can't remember, they were referring to her as baby Jane Doe. Correct. 496 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think of a baby as being less than 497 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 2: two years old. But we've got a five year old here. 498 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 2: Did they know, being investigators? 499 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, they knew. And and you know, I 500 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: think that the reason that they would refer to her 501 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: as baby instead of diminutive female is it's a it's 502 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: a term of endearment, and and I think that from 503 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: that perspective, even though she's not literally a baby as 504 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: we think about it, she she is a baby and 505 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: in his. 506 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 2: Break, you know, we call children baby, a baby for 507 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 2: the whole community adopting this five year old absolutely baby, Okay, 508 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 2: that makes that makes perfectly good. 509 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not so much an indicator of it 510 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: is an indicator that she is less, you know, something 511 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: less than an adult, certainly less than a pubescent child. 512 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,959 Speaker 1: That you're dealing with a very young child here, and 513 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: that again that drives on the point of how ghastly 514 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: this whole process is and this these events surrounding this death. 515 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: But one of the things that they began to understand 516 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: and Dave this is how this newspaper plays into this 517 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: because when they took this DNA sample and plugged it 518 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: into genetic genealogy database and I actually believe that probably 519 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: I got the indication reading some of the associated articles 520 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: that Ortham Lab was involved in this that's that's based 521 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: out in Texas, that they were able to connect this 522 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: child to a family tree in Albany, Georgia. Now, just 523 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: let that resonate with you for a moment, because when 524 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: when they're doing the genetic genealogy and they can have 525 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: they have this this uh, this bi logical tie back 526 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: that doesn't just lead them to Georgia, it leads them 527 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: to Albany, Georgia that there is a family there. That 528 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: means that someone has plugged in their DNA in that 529 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: particular location, and there's multiple people that are coming to 530 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: all these cousins, if you will, that are coming off 531 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: of this tree. And then you reflect back to that 532 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: newspaper that was left behind all the way back in 533 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight, and those cops were smart enough to 534 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: collect that, they photographed it, and how do you associate 535 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: that with it? And you had a Eureka moment at that. 536 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: Can you imagine all of a sudden, I mean, it's 537 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: the greatest thrill in the world as an investigator when 538 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: the pieces come together and they were actually able to 539 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: tie this child back to her mother and as a result, 540 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: and the mother's name is Evelyn Odom and she's now 541 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: been arrested. She's facing charges at this point in time, 542 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: and some horrendous charges at that and homicide. 543 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 3: They've also arrested Eulyster Sanders. 544 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, who was the mother's a living boyfriend at the time, 545 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: so he's so. 546 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 3: They've arrested the couple. 547 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and these people are now I think the mother 548 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: is like fifty six at this point. 549 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, fifty six and sixty one. 550 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, and guess what, Dave, They've had a chance to 551 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: live their life. Guess who didn't Kenyata. She didn't have 552 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: a chance to live her life. Instead, she was discarded 553 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: on a trash pile one hundred miles away from her 554 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: home in Albany, Georgia. And that's the tragedy of all this. 555 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: But there's a day of reckoning coming and I'm going 556 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: to be very interested to see how the prosecution ties 557 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: all of this evidence together and presents this case and 558 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: we'll see if there is in fact justice for this 559 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: little girl that was discarded. I'm just Scott Morgan and 560 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: this is bodybags. Mhm.