WEBVTT - Diane Warren: Songwriter Extraordinaire 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:30.836 Pushkin. If you've sung along to a power ballad in 0:00:30.836 --> 0:00:34.396 the last thirty years, chancers are, you're already intimately familiar 0:00:34.436 --> 0:00:38.276 with Diane Warren's songs. Some of her biggest hits include shares, 0:00:38.316 --> 0:00:41.076 if I Could Turn Back Time, Selene Dion's Because You 0:00:41.156 --> 0:00:44.356 Loved Me, and Aerosmith's I Don't want to miss at You, 0:00:45.236 --> 0:00:51.156 like your mayor stool, like the handicuffs, you go the fool, 0:00:51.476 --> 0:00:56.516 and I'm no wage shit, I'm nowhere. Over the span 0:00:56.596 --> 0:00:59.556 of her thirty five year career, Diane Warren has penned 0:00:59.636 --> 0:01:03.556 hits for hip hop, country, R and B an adult 0:01:03.596 --> 0:01:08.316 contemporary artists. In late August, she finally released her own alley, 0:01:08.516 --> 0:01:11.956 The Caves Sessions Volume one, where she wrote songs for 0:01:12.116 --> 0:01:16.676 artists like Tydalla Sign, Darius Rucker, and John Legends. The 0:01:16.796 --> 0:01:21.156 genre spanning project is modeled after DJ compilation Aalogus and 0:01:21.276 --> 0:01:25.756 brilliantly shows off Warren's incredible range as a writer. On 0:01:25.836 --> 0:01:29.356 today's episode, Rick Rubin talks to Diane Warren about how 0:01:29.396 --> 0:01:31.676 she decided to become a songwriter when she was just 0:01:31.796 --> 0:01:35.076 eleven years old, and how her parents built a shed 0:01:35.116 --> 0:01:37.996 in their backyard where she could work out her early arrangements. 0:01:38.756 --> 0:01:41.356 Warren also talks about her one and only music teacher, 0:01:41.756 --> 0:01:44.396 who told her dad she had no future in music, 0:01:44.876 --> 0:01:47.396 and why she feels she has yet to write her 0:01:47.396 --> 0:01:54.916 best work. This is broken record liner notes for the 0:01:54.956 --> 0:02:03.596 digital Age. I'm justin Richmonds. Here's Rick Rubin and Diane 0:02:03.596 --> 0:02:06.956 Warren and to see you same great to see you. 0:02:07.196 --> 0:02:09.636 It's been it has been I don't know how many years, 0:02:09.636 --> 0:02:11.276 but it feels like it's been a long time, really 0:02:11.316 --> 0:02:12.796 a really long time. I'm trying to think when the 0:02:12.876 --> 0:02:15.076 last time I saw you was. I can't remember. I 0:02:15.116 --> 0:02:18.796 can't remember I did last week. So I remember visiting 0:02:18.796 --> 0:02:23.276 you in Malibu, and I feel like that's like ten 0:02:23.396 --> 0:02:26.956 years ago. Probably. I remember coming your studio. I remember 0:02:27.196 --> 0:02:29.316 being in the studio when you played me a Wheezer's 0:02:29.396 --> 0:02:32.276 version of Unbreak My Heart, which was odd fucking awesome, 0:02:32.476 --> 0:02:35.156 which I loved to this day. I love it. I 0:02:35.156 --> 0:02:37.956 love just people flipping my songs. Yeah, I think that's 0:02:37.956 --> 0:02:40.036 one of my favorites of your songs. I just love 0:02:40.116 --> 0:02:42.596 that song. It's a it's a really special song. Thank you. 0:02:42.956 --> 0:02:45.036 Tell me how that one got written. It started with 0:02:45.036 --> 0:02:47.916 the title Don't Break My heart. It was a weird title. 0:02:48.236 --> 0:02:50.556 I'd never heard it before, you know, and I can't 0:02:50.556 --> 0:02:59.556 remember the magic of that song. No no no non 0:02:59.836 --> 0:03:05.396 this signe me break. I went from B minor to 0:03:05.516 --> 0:03:07.276 D minor. It was like, when I came up with that, 0:03:07.356 --> 0:03:10.476 I was like, oh, fuck, that's fucking that's the part. 0:03:10.796 --> 0:03:13.316 That's the part where it gets you. It hits you immediately. 0:03:13.316 --> 0:03:16.836 It's like it's an emotional change. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. 0:03:16.916 --> 0:03:19.156 You know, it doesn't make any sense. But you know 0:03:19.196 --> 0:03:21.276 that's because I you know, I didn't really study music, 0:03:21.396 --> 0:03:23.596 so I didn't know, you know, when something's fucked up 0:03:23.596 --> 0:03:25.676 and wrong. So I probably do a lot of fucked 0:03:25.716 --> 0:03:27.796 up wrong things that are cool. When did you start 0:03:27.796 --> 0:03:30.156 writing songs? How old were you? I was eleven, But 0:03:30.236 --> 0:03:33.716 when I was when I was fourteen, I became like 0:03:33.756 --> 0:03:36.156 obsessed where it was all I lived for. I would 0:03:36.156 --> 0:03:38.276 study Billboard. I mean, I was a shitty student. I 0:03:38.316 --> 0:03:40.156 got kicked out of, you know a couple of schools, 0:03:40.196 --> 0:03:43.876 and I fucking hated school. But when I really got 0:03:43.916 --> 0:03:45.956 into writing, you know, I made my dad get me 0:03:45.996 --> 0:03:48.356 a subscription of Billboard. I studied it like that was 0:03:48.476 --> 0:03:50.716 college to me. I studied to see who wrote every 0:03:50.756 --> 0:03:53.916 song and who produced songs, and I didn't really care 0:03:53.956 --> 0:03:57.356 who sang them, you know, as much. I was interested 0:03:57.396 --> 0:04:00.356 in all the behind the scenes stuff going on, but 0:04:00.436 --> 0:04:02.756 I was just obsessed, obsessed with writing. And that was 0:04:02.836 --> 0:04:05.396 on was fourteen. So I'm the same way now. I 0:04:05.476 --> 0:04:08.356 just go, you know, I you know, I say I'm 0:04:08.396 --> 0:04:10.236 in a nicer play to write, but I'm not. I mean, 0:04:10.276 --> 0:04:13.036 my room is disgusting right where I mainly work. You know, 0:04:13.036 --> 0:04:16.116 it's really messy and dirty and stuff. So at the time, 0:04:16.316 --> 0:04:17.716 you know, as a kid, my dad got me a 0:04:17.796 --> 0:04:20.476 shed in the back of the house because my parents 0:04:20.476 --> 0:04:22.796 couldn't stand listening to me playing the same song over 0:04:22.836 --> 0:04:24.316 and over. That's why I do when i'm writing, I'm 0:04:24.356 --> 0:04:26.316 just kind of playing it over and over and getting 0:04:26.316 --> 0:04:27.956 it right. So I would go in that. I'd be 0:04:27.956 --> 0:04:30.876 in that shed in the backyard, you know, this like 0:04:30.996 --> 0:04:34.196 metal kind of shed thing and just writing and if 0:04:34.236 --> 0:04:36.316 it was cold, eye a little heater there. I've just 0:04:36.396 --> 0:04:37.916 been like this and I'm the same way now. I 0:04:37.996 --> 0:04:40.276 just I just I do the same thing. I'm still 0:04:40.276 --> 0:04:43.316 as obsessed. I think hopefully I'm better and I keep learning. 0:04:43.396 --> 0:04:45.716 I think I'm really writing my best songs right now? 0:04:46.036 --> 0:04:48.716 You know that I've ever written from the time you're fourteen, 0:04:48.756 --> 0:04:50.636 Did you know you wanted to be a songwriter and 0:04:50.676 --> 0:04:52.236 that's what you wanted to do with your life or 0:04:52.236 --> 0:04:53.716 did you think you'd have a real job and you 0:04:53.756 --> 0:04:56.356 would write songs too, a real job? What no I 0:04:56.436 --> 0:04:58.116 knew when I was I knew I was eight years old. 0:04:58.116 --> 0:05:00.036 It's what I wanted to do, you know, And there 0:05:00.076 --> 0:05:02.756 was no plan B. Plan B is you know, being 0:05:02.796 --> 0:05:04.876 a bag lady and you know, living on the street 0:05:04.916 --> 0:05:06.916 or somethings. I literally do not know how to do 0:05:06.996 --> 0:05:09.116 anything else. I don't I don't know to do anything else. 0:05:09.556 --> 0:05:13.396 I'm utterly useless at everything except this. Where do you 0:05:13.436 --> 0:05:16.116 think the idea came from to do it? What did 0:05:16.196 --> 0:05:19.716 you see that at least made you want to do this? Well? 0:05:19.756 --> 0:05:21.996 I always loved music, and i've you know, I've always 0:05:21.996 --> 0:05:24.676 just been immersed in it. You know, I have older sisters, 0:05:25.076 --> 0:05:27.356 so I always heard music. My mom and dad had like, 0:05:27.436 --> 0:05:29.396 you know, all the all the great show tunes, you know, 0:05:29.876 --> 0:05:32.116 Man and La Mansha, all those, you know, My fair Lady, 0:05:32.436 --> 0:05:34.956 and then my sisters had all the pop music of 0:05:34.996 --> 0:05:37.876 the day. And when I grew up radio played everything, 0:05:37.916 --> 0:05:40.916 so I just got fed this diet of just great 0:05:41.036 --> 0:05:43.676 music and I but anyways, I remember looking on a 0:05:44.276 --> 0:05:46.956 single on a forty five Kids when They're there used 0:05:46.956 --> 0:05:51.796 to be forty fives back in the old days, and 0:05:51.916 --> 0:05:54.436 it was a forty five of up on the Roof, 0:05:54.436 --> 0:05:57.196 and I saw a goffin King and I loved that song, 0:05:57.636 --> 0:05:59.996 and I thought to myself, and I remember, I still 0:06:00.036 --> 0:06:02.036 remember looking at it and going, I want to be 0:06:02.116 --> 0:06:04.636 in those parentheses. I want to be that. I don't 0:06:04.636 --> 0:06:06.396 want to be the singer, I don't want to do 0:06:06.436 --> 0:06:08.076 any of that, but I want to be in the 0:06:08.076 --> 0:06:10.436 parentheses a kid when I thought that, so, how the 0:06:10.516 --> 0:06:12.876 fuck did I know that? So cool? That's a great 0:06:12.876 --> 0:06:15.316 album title for your next album. In the parentheses would 0:06:15.356 --> 0:06:18.436 be a great name. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing 0:06:18.476 --> 0:06:22.716 that you knew so early and you dedicated yourself to 0:06:22.796 --> 0:06:25.356 it and it worked and it's one of them billion. 0:06:25.516 --> 0:06:28.116 But it's the passion that you put in that makes 0:06:28.156 --> 0:06:30.876 it what it is. It's like you're meant, you were 0:06:30.996 --> 0:06:34.196 clearly meant to do this. It's interesting. Yeah. And then 0:06:34.236 --> 0:06:36.436 there's all these you know things that these pinched me 0:06:36.556 --> 0:06:38.876 moments like like I was the biggest Beatles fan, Like 0:06:38.876 --> 0:06:41.276 my older one of my sisters took me to see 0:06:41.276 --> 0:06:43.116 the Beatles twice, you know, when I was like a 0:06:43.196 --> 0:06:46.116 little kid, like six or seven or something, and I 0:06:46.196 --> 0:06:49.756 just had Paul McCartney and Ringo Star on my song 0:06:49.836 --> 0:06:51.996 Here's to the Nights. In the video, they're singing my 0:06:52.036 --> 0:06:54.476 song and with a bunch of other great artists as well, 0:06:54.516 --> 0:06:58.596 like Lenny Kravitz and Cheryl Crowe and Chris Stapleton, you 0:06:58.676 --> 0:07:00.956 know a lot of other artists on there, but the 0:07:01.476 --> 0:07:04.356 you know, the main part of that song is Paul 0:07:04.436 --> 0:07:08.756 McCartney and Ringo Star. And I'm like, I still like, 0:07:08.796 --> 0:07:11.156 if I think about it, it kind of blows me away. 0:07:11.556 --> 0:07:13.716 Did you take piano lessons as a kid? No, I 0:07:13.716 --> 0:07:15.436 didn't take any. Okay, So I'm gonna tell you the 0:07:15.596 --> 0:07:18.436 one time I took music lessons, my dad brought me 0:07:18.476 --> 0:07:21.036 a little guitar from Tijuana. He took me to a 0:07:21.036 --> 0:07:24.276 guitar teacher in the valley. So the guart teacher wanted 0:07:24.316 --> 0:07:27.076 me to learn scales and I didn't. So the second time, 0:07:27.156 --> 0:07:28.876 I just wanted to make up my own songs. I mean, 0:07:28.916 --> 0:07:32.316 fox learning scales so I came back the next week 0:07:32.436 --> 0:07:35.436 to take my second lesson, and the guy said, mister Warren, 0:07:35.836 --> 0:07:38.396 you shouldn't bring your daughter back. She has no future 0:07:38.436 --> 0:07:42.236 in music. So that was that was, That was my 0:07:42.356 --> 0:07:46.236 music lessons. You know. I taught myself to chords. I 0:07:46.276 --> 0:07:48.676 taught myself. I taught myself to play the piano. Someone 0:07:48.716 --> 0:07:51.276 once told me that the piano is the songwriter's instrument. 0:07:51.716 --> 0:07:53.796 So when I was eighteen, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna 0:07:54.156 --> 0:07:55.916 learn enough to you know, I'm not a good piano player. 0:07:55.916 --> 0:07:57.476 I'm not even a good guitar player, right right. I 0:07:57.636 --> 0:07:59.876 can get around. I know chords. You know. I took 0:07:59.916 --> 0:08:03.476 one theory class in school that you know, beginning theory, 0:08:03.516 --> 0:08:05.196 but I don't I didn't really pay attention to it, 0:08:05.196 --> 0:08:07.476 but maybe some of it seeped in. But again, I'm not. 0:08:08.116 --> 0:08:11.236 I'm not a schooled musician, which is good because if you're, 0:08:11.276 --> 0:08:13.756 if you if you have too much music education, you'll 0:08:13.796 --> 0:08:15.556 go like, well that you can't do that, that's not 0:08:15.596 --> 0:08:18.156 the right, that doesn't you know? Well fuck that. I 0:08:18.196 --> 0:08:19.916 don't even know what's right or wrong. I just go 0:08:19.996 --> 0:08:23.556 by what I feel. What's your rhythm of writing? Do 0:08:23.596 --> 0:08:25.796 you write every day every day. It's funny with t 0:08:25.876 --> 0:08:31.596 shirt you chose to wear fuck off, I'm writing, Yeah, 0:08:31.956 --> 0:08:34.436 that's kind of my favorite shirt. I thought it was 0:08:34.476 --> 0:08:37.316 appropriate since I'm since we're talking today that I should 0:08:37.356 --> 0:08:40.396 wear that. My rhythm and my first hit being rhythm 0:08:40.396 --> 0:08:42.956 in the night, So rhythm is a good word. You know. 0:08:42.956 --> 0:08:44.676 I just show up, you know, I go to work 0:08:44.716 --> 0:08:47.476 every day. I go get my coffee and go to 0:08:47.516 --> 0:08:50.436 my office and either starting something new or working on 0:08:50.476 --> 0:08:52.836 what I'm working on. How did the first one happen? 0:08:52.916 --> 0:08:55.356 How did the DeBarge song happen? I was signed to 0:08:55.636 --> 0:08:58.076 a guy named Jack White, who not not the White 0:08:58.116 --> 0:09:01.596 stripes Jack White. I'm a German producer and through Jack, 0:09:01.636 --> 0:09:04.636 I was signed to arist To Publishing and ministered him. 0:09:04.716 --> 0:09:08.716 So someone over there named Linda Blum actually told me 0:09:08.756 --> 0:09:13.316 about that this movie on the Last Dragon, and I 0:09:13.356 --> 0:09:14.996 did the song for it. I've done a lot of 0:09:15.036 --> 0:09:16.876 movie songs. I still That's what I do a lot of. 0:09:17.396 --> 0:09:20.116 So my first big hit was from a movie Berry 0:09:20.156 --> 0:09:22.836 Gordy's The Last Dragon and to Bars did the song 0:09:22.876 --> 0:09:24.956 and its the first time that I had to you know, 0:09:25.156 --> 0:09:33.076 hit words and music you know by me. I wouldn't 0:09:33.076 --> 0:09:35.196 have guessed that you wrote that. I didn't. I didn't 0:09:35.236 --> 0:09:38.996 know that you wrote that song until until recently. Again, 0:09:39.036 --> 0:09:41.356 you write all kinds of songs, yeah, I do, but 0:09:41.476 --> 0:09:43.636 that's not one that I would have imagined you wrote. 0:09:43.676 --> 0:09:45.156 And it really made me happy to see that you 0:09:45.196 --> 0:09:47.116 wrote it. I love I love that you wrote it. 0:09:47.156 --> 0:09:48.716 I probably wrote a bunch of songs you didn't know 0:09:48.756 --> 0:09:50.796 I wrote. You probably didn't know I wrote Blame it 0:09:50.836 --> 0:09:54.476 on the Rain, Yeah I didn't. It's so cool. Yeah, 0:09:54.636 --> 0:09:56.676 let's say you were to sit down now to write 0:09:56.676 --> 0:09:59.516 a song, just start the process for me. I mean, 0:09:59.556 --> 0:10:00.836 I don't know. I don't know how to do that 0:10:00.956 --> 0:10:03.436 in front of somebody, Like I mean, I play some chords, 0:10:03.436 --> 0:10:09.556 I don't know. I might have a drum going on 0:10:09.796 --> 0:10:12.236 a programmed to drum pattern or something, or I might 0:10:12.836 --> 0:10:22.596 start playing something. What's going to come from that? Who knows? 0:10:23.476 --> 0:10:26.476 And when you play, are you listening to what you're 0:10:26.996 --> 0:10:30.236 You're playing and listening, and then based on what you hear, 0:10:31.076 --> 0:10:34.556 you make decisions to change things or do something different, 0:10:34.636 --> 0:10:36.916 or to go somewhere else. I'm not even conscious of it. 0:10:36.916 --> 0:10:39.196 It's it's such a weird, like that's why it's hard 0:10:39.276 --> 0:10:41.556 to like, you know, people are going, well, what's your process? 0:10:41.636 --> 0:10:43.996 I mean, I have no fucking clue, you know, I'm 0:10:43.996 --> 0:10:47.156 just I'm just in the moment. I'm just going with it. 0:10:47.236 --> 0:10:50.916 And and concepts kind of pop up, these crazy concepts 0:10:51.516 --> 0:10:53.396 like I just started something. I'm not gonna play you 0:10:53.396 --> 0:10:54.516 because I don't know how much of it. But I 0:10:54.556 --> 0:10:56.676 was like, the fucking coolest concept, Like you know that 0:10:56.716 --> 0:10:58.796 no one's done this, you know, so it's kind of fun, 0:10:59.396 --> 0:11:01.196 you know, whether it's on break my Heart or whether 0:11:01.236 --> 0:11:03.556 it's you know, something else I'm coming up with. You know, 0:11:03.756 --> 0:11:06.076 it's just kind of finding something that maybe hasn't been 0:11:06.076 --> 0:11:08.916 said that way, or some notes that excite me. And 0:11:09.236 --> 0:11:13.356 I don't know, have you always programmed a beat first 0:11:13.476 --> 0:11:16.076 and then played to the beat or not necessarily? No, 0:11:16.196 --> 0:11:18.796 Sometimes I don't any I'm just sitting at the guitar 0:11:18.996 --> 0:11:22.756 or my keyboards. You know. I love big string sounds, 0:11:22.996 --> 0:11:25.196 you know too, I love that that so, you know, 0:11:25.636 --> 0:11:27.956 yesterday I was trying I was kind of trying to 0:11:28.396 --> 0:11:30.156 the song was working on. I was kind of playing 0:11:30.156 --> 0:11:32.356 in my hand on the drum machine, was and trying 0:11:32.356 --> 0:11:34.676 to play the bass on the on my left hand. 0:11:34.716 --> 0:11:37.516 It was kind of funny and horrible sounding, but the 0:11:37.556 --> 0:11:40.436 song I think would be good, So you know just 0:11:40.476 --> 0:11:42.516 how I however, way I do it? Do you typically 0:11:42.716 --> 0:11:46.076 get the melody before the lyrics and then you fill 0:11:46.116 --> 0:11:49.196 in the lyrics. Yeah, I mean the really good ones 0:11:49.276 --> 0:11:51.196 kind of come together in a weird way, but then 0:11:51.276 --> 0:11:52.796 the rest of the song I have to fill in, 0:11:52.876 --> 0:11:55.636 like like what's you know, the first verse might have 0:11:55.756 --> 0:11:57.956 come easy, and then you know where am I going 0:11:57.996 --> 0:12:00.236 to go in the second verse? And I remember going 0:12:00.316 --> 0:12:02.756 near the bridge until I have every part of the 0:12:02.756 --> 0:12:05.436 song written, because I have no idea what the bridge 0:12:05.476 --> 0:12:07.996 wants to take me, even musically. Would you not know 0:12:08.036 --> 0:12:10.716 the bridge until the rest of this written? Yeah, unless 0:12:10.716 --> 0:12:13.156 I might have had something that that I didn't use 0:12:13.196 --> 0:12:15.116 in the in the verse that like something I did 0:12:15.156 --> 0:12:17.516 a few weeks It was like that where it's this 0:12:17.596 --> 0:12:19.556 part didn't work in the verse, but I was like, 0:12:19.636 --> 0:12:23.636 I made a mental note to myself, there's there's your bridge. Yeah. 0:12:23.796 --> 0:12:26.116 Do you ever start the process with an artist in mind, 0:12:26.196 --> 0:12:28.596 I'm going to write a song for share or do 0:12:28.596 --> 0:12:30.796 you just write a song? I try just to write 0:12:30.796 --> 0:12:32.796 a song, you know, like, um, yeah, I just I 0:12:32.796 --> 0:12:34.956 just try to write a great song. I don't want 0:12:34.956 --> 0:12:37.876 to have any preconceived notions, like if I write it 0:12:37.916 --> 0:12:40.996 for with one person in mind, that's going to only 0:12:41.076 --> 0:12:42.956 be for that one person. And if they don't do 0:12:42.996 --> 0:12:45.196 the song, you know, then what you do? You know, So, 0:12:45.276 --> 0:12:47.516 if you write a great song, you know it can 0:12:47.596 --> 0:12:49.556 go a million different ways and to a lot of 0:12:49.596 --> 0:12:52.116 different people. You know, when I'm writing something, I go, oh, 0:12:52.156 --> 0:12:54.476 that's really great for so and so or so and so. 0:12:55.156 --> 0:12:57.356 But I don't sit down to write a song for somebody. 0:12:57.436 --> 0:12:59.476 You know, I'm the only time I stand to write 0:12:59.476 --> 0:13:03.436 a song for something in particular as a movie. Yeah, Typically, 0:13:03.556 --> 0:13:06.156 if it takes a week to write a song, has 0:13:06.156 --> 0:13:08.076 there ever been a case where a song has come 0:13:08.316 --> 0:13:10.556 really quick or where a song that you've had to 0:13:10.556 --> 0:13:12.596 fight with for a really long time, Has it ever 0:13:12.636 --> 0:13:14.956 happened nothing I've had to fight with for a really 0:13:14.996 --> 0:13:17.356 long time. A couple of them have come quick. I 0:13:17.356 --> 0:13:19.556 could think of two songs that came really quick, you know. 0:13:19.676 --> 0:13:22.236 Two of my favorites too. One is Until It Happens 0:13:22.236 --> 0:13:25.076 to You, done by Lady Gaga. That song just wrote itself. 0:13:25.876 --> 0:13:28.636 The other one is a song that called when I'm 0:13:28.636 --> 0:13:31.236 back on my feeding in it. Michael Bolton did that 0:13:31.556 --> 0:13:32.996 to this day is one of my favorite Both those 0:13:32.996 --> 0:13:35.116 songs are two of my favorite songs. When they come 0:13:35.196 --> 0:13:38.516 quickly like that, when do you start thinking about who 0:13:38.556 --> 0:13:41.756 could record it? During the process? You know, while I'm 0:13:41.756 --> 0:13:43.676 writing it, I think I like different artists I could 0:13:43.716 --> 0:13:47.276 do the song. I'm not above calling people you know, 0:13:47.316 --> 0:13:51.996 you know me? Yes. How often does it happen when 0:13:52.036 --> 0:13:55.396 you finish a song and you think, wow, this is 0:13:55.556 --> 0:13:59.596 really great? It's been happening a lot lately, amazing. Like 0:13:59.716 --> 0:14:02.196 I'm like, I'm like wow. Used to be where I 0:14:02.236 --> 0:14:04.276 felt like I'd write one of those songs every now, 0:14:04.436 --> 0:14:05.956 like in a bunch of songs and one of those 0:14:05.996 --> 0:14:07.996 And now I'm feeling like with a lot of what 0:14:08.036 --> 0:14:10.356 I'm doing right now a great feeling. Yeah it is. 0:14:10.556 --> 0:14:13.716 I feel like I'm learning and just getting better. I'm 0:14:13.756 --> 0:14:16.356 just hungry to learn and hungry to write, and you know, 0:14:16.436 --> 0:14:19.996 hungry to succeed. Yeah. How would you describe what makes 0:14:19.996 --> 0:14:23.116 a song great? It's hard to describe it. You feel it, right. 0:14:23.236 --> 0:14:25.036 A great melody, I mean, you have to have a 0:14:25.036 --> 0:14:27.636 great melody, and to me, you have to have a 0:14:27.636 --> 0:14:29.196 great lyric too, and you have to have the marriage 0:14:29.196 --> 0:14:31.156 of the two. What do you think makes a great song. 0:14:31.716 --> 0:14:33.516 I think it's the feeling. I think it's the way 0:14:33.556 --> 0:14:35.716 it makes you feel. I don't think there's any technical 0:14:36.196 --> 0:14:38.476 way to describe it, right, but that is what's making 0:14:38.516 --> 0:14:41.836 you feel something when it's that perfect combination. Yeah, the 0:14:42.156 --> 0:14:44.676 example you gave when you played Unbreak the piece of 0:14:44.756 --> 0:14:49.476 Unbreak my Heart with that change. To me, those moments 0:14:49.956 --> 0:14:53.556 are what makes a song great, like an unexpected change 0:14:54.436 --> 0:14:58.876 that the fact that it's unexpected makes you listen closer, 0:14:59.356 --> 0:15:02.196 you know, like it catches your ear, it makes you 0:15:02.196 --> 0:15:05.956 pay attention. Yeah. But often things that catch your ear 0:15:05.996 --> 0:15:07.996 and make you pay attention or things you don't like 0:15:08.476 --> 0:15:11.916 so for be something. It's like a fine line when 0:15:11.996 --> 0:15:17.756 something can be challenging enough to be interesting and still 0:15:18.316 --> 0:15:20.516 you want to listen to it again instead of never 0:15:20.596 --> 0:15:24.036 hear it again. Yeah, I prefer I prefer the other way. 0:15:24.396 --> 0:15:27.196 I prefer it the good way. We'll be right back 0:15:27.196 --> 0:15:33.876 with more from Diane Warren after a quick break. We're 0:15:33.916 --> 0:15:38.156 back with Rick Rubin and Diane Warren after the DeBarge song. 0:15:38.236 --> 0:15:40.756 What was the next song that somebody recorded of yours? 0:15:41.476 --> 0:15:44.156 I think nothing's going to stop us now, or I 0:15:44.196 --> 0:15:46.636 Get Weak? I can't remember. There's a bunch of them. 0:15:46.676 --> 0:15:49.916 Then nothing's gonna stop us now. It was from Mannequin, 0:15:50.036 --> 0:15:51.916 and that's kind of become a classic. I did that 0:15:51.956 --> 0:15:54.436 with my friend Albert Hammond, and then you know, a 0:15:54.436 --> 0:15:56.236 bunch of other ones. At that time, I'm just trying 0:15:56.236 --> 0:15:58.396 to think a big hit with heart. Who will you 0:15:58.476 --> 0:16:01.396 Run to? Blenda Carlile I Get Weak, which is still 0:16:01.396 --> 0:16:03.996 one of my favorite songs I've ever done. You know, 0:16:04.036 --> 0:16:07.036 the doors started opening, you know, the doors that are 0:16:07.036 --> 0:16:09.676 closed as you know, you know, you know, when it 0:16:09.676 --> 0:16:12.516 became easier, you have a little success, and and all 0:16:12.516 --> 0:16:14.876 of a sudden, you know, it's it's the people that 0:16:15.116 --> 0:16:17.396 didn't like that song. Oh I really like that song now, 0:16:17.756 --> 0:16:20.516 you know that shit goes, you know, but it's just 0:16:20.556 --> 0:16:23.836 like it's natural. Describe what the record business was like 0:16:23.876 --> 0:16:26.756 when you entered it versus the record business of today 0:16:26.836 --> 0:16:29.396 and all the changes it's gone through. Just describe your 0:16:29.396 --> 0:16:33.076 experience of seeing it change. Okay, Well, one thing stays constant, 0:16:33.116 --> 0:16:35.516 and that's a great song. So what I do stays 0:16:35.556 --> 0:16:37.516 the same, Right, I still have to write a great song. 0:16:38.116 --> 0:16:41.636 The negative difference to me is it's so data driven. Now. 0:16:41.916 --> 0:16:44.596 To me, the data that matters is if it makes 0:16:44.636 --> 0:16:46.996 the hair on your arms stand up and it makes 0:16:46.996 --> 0:16:49.716 you your heart feel something and you just go, fuck, 0:16:49.836 --> 0:16:53.476 what is that right? As opposed to your TikTok numbers 0:16:53.636 --> 0:16:56.996 and all the all the algorithms. Algorithm of the night. 0:16:57.036 --> 0:17:01.356 I'll rewrite it, the algorithm of the night. I was 0:17:01.396 --> 0:17:03.636 talking to an artist and he's really good and he 0:17:03.716 --> 0:17:05.196 just put his album out and I gave him a song. 0:17:05.276 --> 0:17:08.156 So it's like last year and one of his managers 0:17:08.196 --> 0:17:10.276 works for a major come any you know, he's on 0:17:10.316 --> 0:17:13.116 an independent label, and I go, why doesn't your manager 0:17:13.156 --> 0:17:16.636 sign you? And he goes, my TikTok numbers aren't high enough. 0:17:17.196 --> 0:17:20.236 I'm like, fuck, like you know, and you think you 0:17:20.316 --> 0:17:23.836 think that like the greatest artists, you know, with the Beatles, 0:17:23.996 --> 0:17:25.956 you know, if their TikTok numbers weren't high Wood Prince 0:17:26.076 --> 0:17:29.156 get signed today? Would to me some of these some 0:17:29.316 --> 0:17:32.236 of that I find I find sad because it's really 0:17:32.276 --> 0:17:34.436 all about, like we were talking about what a song 0:17:34.516 --> 0:17:37.756 makes you feel, not about your numbers, because you know what, 0:17:38.036 --> 0:17:40.716 some records and artists might take longer. But I don't 0:17:40.716 --> 0:17:43.476 know if a label will stay with you for that 0:17:43.756 --> 0:17:46.636 to happen. And to me, that's sad, don't you think, 0:17:46.676 --> 0:17:49.076 don't you think? Absolutely? And some of the biggest artists 0:17:49.116 --> 0:17:50.796 in the world didn't break to their you know, to 0:17:50.876 --> 0:17:53.516 their third album. Yeah. And in today's the world, if 0:17:53.556 --> 0:17:55.636 you know, if now it's a first single, yeah, you 0:17:55.636 --> 0:17:57.916 don't even get to your second forget your second album. 0:17:57.956 --> 0:18:00.396 You don't get to your second single. Yeah. It takes 0:18:00.396 --> 0:18:04.316 time to develop. It's sad. That's sad, and I feel 0:18:04.316 --> 0:18:06.356 bad for artists, and then they kind of have to 0:18:06.396 --> 0:18:10.236 do all the work even before a label is you know, interested. 0:18:10.436 --> 0:18:13.276 But for me, it's it's the same thing. I have 0:18:13.356 --> 0:18:16.196 to write a song somebody wants to sing. So that 0:18:16.236 --> 0:18:20.876 hasn't changed at all. What's the feeling when you hear 0:18:21.436 --> 0:18:24.436 a great singer sing your song for the first time? 0:18:24.516 --> 0:18:27.996 What's how? Does it? Nothing better? I mean nothing better? 0:18:28.716 --> 0:18:30.756 You know. I'm sitting here writing a song and I'm 0:18:30.796 --> 0:18:32.716 singing it and I sound like shit, you know, And 0:18:32.756 --> 0:18:34.516 then look, I have one song. I'm gonna give you 0:18:34.516 --> 0:18:37.676 an example, and I got to hear two great singers 0:18:37.676 --> 0:18:39.716 on it. I wrote a song called I Was Here 0:18:40.076 --> 0:18:42.876 that Beyonce sang really one of my favorite songs, and 0:18:42.916 --> 0:18:47.196 then last year Dame Shirley Bassi recorded it. It was like, fuck, 0:18:48.356 --> 0:18:53.116 it's like so cool, you know, the original James Bond. 0:18:53.436 --> 0:18:57.116 Dame Shirley Bassi just did my song. Both song amazingly, 0:18:57.516 --> 0:19:00.916 you know, but so different, Like Beyonce is singing it 0:19:01.276 --> 0:19:04.396 fucking amazing, but you know she's talking about you know, 0:19:04.516 --> 0:19:06.876 I was here, I lived, I Love. She's almost looking 0:19:07.356 --> 0:19:11.236 ahead and then Shirley Bassis behind in a way like 0:19:11.356 --> 0:19:14.276 everything she's done. And it's so it's such a different 0:19:14.276 --> 0:19:17.996 reading of the song and both are just genius. I 0:19:18.076 --> 0:19:22.436 think it's an incredible thing when the song's context changes 0:19:22.516 --> 0:19:25.476 based on the person singing it. Oh yeah. Well. Another 0:19:25.596 --> 0:19:27.556 another example was when I did how Do I Live? 0:19:27.996 --> 0:19:30.636 And it was out with Leon Rhymes and Trisha Earwood 0:19:30.716 --> 0:19:34.356 and Leon Rhymes was fourteen and then Shushia Earwood was older, 0:19:34.756 --> 0:19:37.236 and so it meant something different like you're fourteen years old, 0:19:37.476 --> 0:19:39.516 how do I Live without you? And both versions were great. 0:19:39.556 --> 0:19:41.636 One was you know, kind of innocent and one was 0:19:41.716 --> 0:19:44.396 lived in you know, and they both were fantastic. I 0:19:44.836 --> 0:19:48.636 love to see my songs get other lives. And get reinterpreted, 0:19:48.756 --> 0:19:50.316 you know, and I really love I love to go 0:19:50.316 --> 0:19:53.196 on on YouTube and listen to all the covers. Yeah, 0:19:53.196 --> 0:19:55.716 and there's some fucking cool ones I heard. I did 0:19:55.716 --> 0:19:59.036