1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Trillions. I'm Joel Webber and I'm Eric bel Tunis. Okay, Eric, 2 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: you made a call in January at Inside E t 3 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: F S and we're gonna actually spend today's episode bringing 4 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: the world up to speed on that call and everything 5 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: that unfolded. What was your call, Well, it wasn't a 6 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: call per per se. It was just a I was 7 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: onto an et F. That's just really having quite the 8 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: break up moment at Inside E t S, which is 9 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: like the comic Con of ETFs. Every year they have 10 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: this best New E t F competition with all the 11 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: pundits from the industry arguing for what the best launch 12 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: was of the year before. So in January I argued 13 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: for u r n M, which is the North Shore 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: Uranium Mining e t F and it just come out 15 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: a month ago in December, and so nobody heard of it. 16 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: And I had looked at your radium a couple of 17 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: times in the ten years prior. There's a ticker called 18 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: you are A which had been around and it's always bad. 19 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: It would have a little head fake here and there, 20 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: but just go down again. But this story stuck with me. 21 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: There was a narrative there that I was like, there's 22 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: something here. And so as I've seen more people talk 23 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: about E. S G, it's really occurred to me that 24 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: there's definitely an inconsistency between people wanting to keep up 25 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: their lifestyles yet also wanting to fight climate change. And 26 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: so I was making the case on stage that you 27 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: R and M is a intriguing because it launched after 28 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,919 Speaker 1: a horrible back test. You never see that, and also 29 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: that it was sort of like green investing for realists. Um, 30 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: you know, you arguably are going to need to have 31 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: nuclear if everybody can keep up what they're doing in 32 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: their economies and yet you can fight climate change, you 33 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: just really can't get it done with solar and wind. 34 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: So that's the case I made. I didn't win. I 35 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: probably came in third. It's based on like how loud 36 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: the audience collapse, but I will say I won the 37 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: perform since competition race by a mile. This thing is 38 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: up two since then. It's up four d and twelve 39 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: since March, which is a bottom for a lot of equity. 40 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: T F. That's double arc and everybody thinks arcs like 41 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: the best thing. That's double arc About four times the 42 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 1: cueues and this year it's up a hundred pcent, which 43 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: is by far the best performing equity e t F. 44 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 1: The next best one is something like So this is 45 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: a white hot area. And so I will take a 46 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: little victory lap and say I was on to it early, 47 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: not that I quote called it. Okay, thanks for that explanation. 48 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 1: So if you haven't, if you haven't been able to 49 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: gather that yet, we're gonna talk about uranium. Joining us 50 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: is gonna be Tim Ratlo north Shore in Disease. He's 51 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: the guy who actually came out with that uranium ETF. 52 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: We're also going to be joined by Michael Alkin, the 53 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: c i O of Sachem Cove Partners, and John Giampaglia, 54 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: the CEO of Sprout Asset Management, this time on Trillions 55 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: New in Sanity. Tim, Michael, John, welcome to Trillions. Thank 56 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: you having us very much. Okay, So Tim, I want 57 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: to start with you because uranium was your big idea. 58 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: Why why did you get this idea? How did how 59 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: did it hit you? Yeah, so I'll stop you there. 60 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: I mean it was Mike's idea. Mike. Mike was the 61 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: one who you know I met in seventeen and he 62 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: had written this just incredibly sync white paper talking about 63 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: I mean really what everybody is now talking about, UM, 64 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: big supply deficit, uh, you know, multi year bearer market shrinking, 65 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: equity market caps. And it just made so much sense. 66 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: And I've always been attracted to deeply contrary and things, 67 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: and that's that's gonna Mike spent. And fast forward to 68 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: we had gotten involved in launching a hedge fund in 69 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: the space and to invest in uranium, and it became 70 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: apparent that there was this big four seller out there, 71 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: which happened to be u are A because they changed 72 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: their mandate. And I looked at it and just said, 73 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: if this thesis is correct, there will need to be 74 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: some pure playing mine e t F like there is 75 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: for every other commodity, gold, silver, you know, and that 76 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 1: even rare earth metals have had an et F that 77 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 1: was more a pure play. And it just looked like 78 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: a really interesting entry point. I knew nothing about E 79 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: t S at that point. UM, so it kind of 80 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 1: got up to speed and right time, right place launched 81 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: it in ten and they were off of the races 82 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: and the whole time Mike's thesis is playing out. And 83 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: literally you can go back to Seen and look at videos, 84 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: um that he did at conferences where he laid out 85 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: the thesis, and I mean every single point, and I 86 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: think you know, some of the E. S G stuff 87 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: was there, but the extent to which the green and 88 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: the nuclear revolution those are always kind of upside cases. 89 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: But for the for the thesis to work, you never 90 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: actually needed any of those things. That's just kind of 91 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: icing on the cake at this point. Um. And it's 92 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: been great to see this nuclear renaissance that were kind 93 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: of in the midst of beginning. Okay, so Mike, Mike 94 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: talked to us more about that that renaissance and also, um, 95 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: what led you to to sort of recognize that this 96 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: was going to be this opportunity And also I'm really curious, 97 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: you know, why has this thing basically tracked with the 98 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: pandemic right, like it's really popped during that time. Yeah, Joe, sure. 99 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: So my whole career has been spent on in contrarian 100 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: and looking for things that people are not interested in 101 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: at the time. You tend to find recency biases, and 102 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: and the longer the bear market, uh, the longer the 103 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: you know, the recency bias, and the more they had 104 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 1: an anchor to it, right, so in the case of 105 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: nuclear power, we had looked at it in the past 106 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: and twenty two thousand seven and had a big run 107 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: two thousand and eleven after fu Kushima, but didn't we 108 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: were working on other things that didn't have time to 109 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: really die. End At two thousand and fifteen, though had 110 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: looked at something where the market cap of the industry 111 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: had gone from about a hundred and fifty billion down 112 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: to about four billion, the number of companies had gone 113 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: from maybe five hundred down to fifty, and so it 114 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: was devastated. And so at that time we decided it 115 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: was time to dig in and just understand what the 116 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: role of nuclear power is because as all of us 117 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: we see, uh you know, you talk about the greening 118 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: of the carbonizing the world. That's not it's it's gaining 119 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: great momentum now, but it's it's relatively new um. But 120 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: even then it was starting to come around. But we 121 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: know wind and solar. So what I wanted to do 122 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: was understand better the role of nuclear power versus the 123 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: alternatives that can help de carbonize the world. And what 124 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: I realized after spending because at that time the cell 125 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: side had disappeared. If you were a cell side Uranian analyists. 126 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: You were likely fired when the commodities down, you're out 127 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: of a job. And so there was really very little research. 128 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: A couple of industry be forecasters that were around, but 129 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: I said, let's take a fresh start at this. Is 130 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: there a case for nuclear power? And when you dive 131 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: in and nobody is paying attention and it's just sitting there, 132 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: hiding in plain sight. When you realize is it's not 133 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: a sexy growth business, but with draconian assumptions, it was 134 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: the one percent growth business. And you realize that it's 135 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: not a competitor to wind and solar, it's it's a 136 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: compliment to wind and solar. It's baseload, it's a beast, 137 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: it's always on. And then as you dive in further, 138 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: you say, wait a second, on a per tero at 139 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: hour of electricity generated, it's the safest form in the 140 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: world of electricity generation, which most people would say, what 141 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: are you talking about? Right, But math is math. Facts 142 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: are facts. And then there's the one thing you have 143 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: to try and understand is the waste. Right, we all 144 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: hear on nuclear waste and again that's that's a bias 145 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: that exists because at the end of the day, it's 146 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: really the only contained waste. You know where it goes. 147 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: It's it's a it's a cooling ponds for five years, 148 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: and then it's in concrete steel reinforced casks sitting on 149 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: the on their utility. So if you know where that 150 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: stream is and and really uh, then looking at that 151 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: saying okay, it's real nuclear power is here to can 152 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: help decarbonize the world. Eventually, the economics have to sort 153 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: themselves out. It's twelve percent of electricity generation in the world. 154 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: And at the time, uh, the cost of your you know, 155 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,119 Speaker 1: the price of uranian was probably in the high teens, 156 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: low twenties, and the marginal cost of production is close 157 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: to fifty. And so I'm not the sharpest tool in 158 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: the shed, but I know that you can't pull something 159 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: out of the ground at fifty and sell it at eighteen. 160 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: That doesn't work. So you need to have supplied discipline. 161 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: And that was really the genesis of it. Now where 162 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 1: people get confused is they look at the if you're 163 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: in the US, you're in you're in Europe. It's not 164 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: a growing industry here. It's it's a flat to slightly 165 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: declining industry. But in in in the developing world. It's 166 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: a it's a very rapidly growing industry. So you just 167 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: have to be able to understand the differences. All right, Well, Mike, 168 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: you just went over a lot um. There's a lot 169 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: to unpack, and there's a couple of things you want 170 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: to We're gonna come back to, which is the the waste, 171 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: you know, and the sentiment of having a reactor near 172 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: your house. I want to get to that later in 173 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 1: the episode. I want to just keep it to the 174 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: here and now with the with the funds though, and 175 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: let's bring in John and talk sprout. So we've got 176 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 1: the r U r N M and you are a 177 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: which track equities in the US, then up in Canada, John, 178 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: you have sprought physical Uranium Trust. Now this actually holds 179 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: yellow powder right in warehouses around the world, like the 180 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: way gold would would hold gold gold bars. And this 181 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: fund has really um sort of come out of its 182 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: shell held in the past couple of weeks. It's now 183 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: I believe a billion holds million pounds of uranium and 184 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: has become a big player in the market. And recently 185 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: you had to go and ask for new shares to 186 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: hit to feed the demand and that actually set up 187 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: another catalyst event for the sector. So I guess could 188 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: you talk about what you're seeing up there and how 189 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: you got involved. Sure, thanks for having me on so UM. 190 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: Sprout Asset Management is based in Toronto and we often 191 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: think of it as being the mind finance capital of 192 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: the world. So Sprout has a very long history with 193 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 1: all things mining, and in the last uranium cycle that 194 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,599 Speaker 1: happened in the kind of the mid two thousand's, we 195 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: were very active on the on the equity side, and 196 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: uh we were also very involved with the the genesis 197 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: of the preducessor vehicle, which was called Uranium Participation corps Um. 198 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: It was launched in two thousand and five. It was 199 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: a holding company structure on the Toronto Stock Exchange, and 200 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: after a very long pursuit, we acquired that vehicle in 201 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: July and we converted it from a holding company structure 202 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: to a more traditional investment fund. So it's a closed 203 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: end fund that trades on the Toronto Stock Exchange. It 204 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 1: also trades on OTC pink sheets all right now, and 205 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: and the reception we received with the fund has just 206 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: been phenomenal. In the last couple of months, the trading 207 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: volume is really picked up um the vehicle, as you said, 208 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 1: almost five million physical pounds of you three O eight 209 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: or known as better known as yellow cake UM. And 210 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: in the last say six weeks, we've acquired over six 211 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: million pounds UM as we've issued new shares in the trust, 212 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: we've we've backed those with physical more physical uranium. Help 213 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: me understand twenty five million pounds, let's add six to it, 214 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: thirty one thirty one million pounds. What percentage of the 215 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,719 Speaker 1: uranium sitting out there is that we're Is there a 216 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: better way to sort of put that into context? Sure? 217 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 1: So we right now the trust owns about twenty five million. 218 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: So when we acquired the company um IT, it had 219 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: about eighteen and change million pounds. So we've been adding 220 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 1: pretty consistently. So give you some perspective, because honestly, when 221 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: I first quired the fun and try to put it 222 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: into context in my head, it's it's pretty mind boggling 223 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: the mount of uranium. So we could power the entire 224 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: nuclear fleet in France, which produces of the country's power 225 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: for one year with all of that material, just to 226 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: give you a sense of how much uranium that is. 227 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: So it's a huge quantity. It's it's stored at three 228 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 1: different conversion facilities in the Western world. There's one in 229 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: the US, one in Canada, and one in France. So 230 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: that's where all these drums are are residing right now. 231 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: And how did you break that news to your wife 232 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: that you had just acquired twenty five million pounds of uranium? 233 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: How did that go over? Well, she thinks I'm a 234 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: total geek anyway, So that's just added to the uh, 235 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: added to the legends. Okay, walk us through what it 236 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: takes to actually like take possession of million pounds of uranium. Yeah, 237 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: so we're customed to dealing with a lot of bulky commodities. 238 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: We have a number of n YC listed tickers p 239 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: h y S and PSLV, and so we're are custom 240 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: to moving around large amounts of gold and large amounts 241 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: of silver. Silver in particularly in particular, is very difficult 242 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: to move around. But your aim is a whole other, 243 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: obviously category. It is probably the most regulated and secure 244 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: supply chain of anything in the world. As you could imagine, 245 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: every single pound from mind to conversion facility to nuclear 246 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: reactor is tracked so for obvious reasons. So, um, the 247 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: you know, that that gives us a lot of comfort 248 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: that the supply chain is very safe and um but 249 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff it moves around on ships, 250 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: it moves around on trucks, and it goes from just 251 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: a few places in the world. The predominant producers are 252 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: in Kazakhstan, Canada, Australia, and there's a number of minds 253 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: in Africa. So it's a commodity that is concentrated in 254 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: only a few parts of the world, which you know 255 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: we make. We think that makes it more scarce and 256 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: more susceptible to supply to disruptions. And do you think 257 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: we will or could see one of these launch in 258 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: the US, like a physically back uranium et F. I 259 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: would I would think it would be that the iron 260 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: is hot to file for one. So part of our 261 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: reorganization plan for Uranium Participation Corps was a pledge that's 262 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: brought would pursue a US listing and we're gonna start 263 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: that work in the in the coming weeks. Uh. Nobody 264 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: has ever successfully launched a physical uranium stockpiling fund in 265 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: the in the US. Somebody tried once but was denied 266 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: because it was more of a trading company. So we 267 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: know we we have a long road ahead of us 268 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: in terms of working with the regulator to get approval 269 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: for the for the new vehicle. Um, it's something we've 270 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: done many times in terms of UH securing sec approval 271 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: for commodity stockpiling funds. We have a lot of experience 272 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: with that and that's something we're gonna be working on. 273 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: It is a novel listing, so we don't really know 274 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: what we're gonna encounter until we we're right in the 275 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: in the in the thick of it. The ticker that 276 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: trades o t C is s r UUF. It looks 277 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: like that's starting to make its way around the Wall 278 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: Street bets crowd, the Reddit crowd. Why are they locking 279 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: into this trade? Um? You know, is it just because 280 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: it's a place to make money or is there some 281 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: other populist motive they have? Well, you know, at the 282 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: end of the day, it really is about the thesis, 283 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: you know, underpinning the story. Um. You know, I'm not 284 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: going to deny that there's probably some some short term 285 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: money chasing this right now, but that's the way the 286 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: market works. But I'm I've been amazed that the growing 287 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: number of investors I've spoken to that have been in 288 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: the trade for the last few years. And and just 289 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: to step back a second, we've been working on this 290 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: since So this isn't some some idea we just whipped 291 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: up to capture some kind of you know, meme following. 292 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: We've been on this for a long time because we 293 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: we fundamentally thought like the market needed to reset. But 294 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: in the last couple of months, I've noticed a much 295 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: broadening of interest. Uh. In the early days, it was 296 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: it was a very small group of specialty investors or 297 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: contrarian investors or value investors. Now I'm seeing it broaden 298 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: out to generalists. They're getting interested in the story. Um, 299 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: and obviously we're seeing a lot more individual investors, which 300 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: I think is great UM to to make the market 301 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: more liquid and active and the sprout physically. Randium Trust 302 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: is the largest vehicle of its kind in the world, 303 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: and and that's drawing those investors to us on both 304 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: the Toronto Stock Exchange and the OTC market. So, Mike, 305 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: I want to bring it back to you because we're 306 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: we've talked about the supply here. UM, there is a 307 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: demand question, which is obviously you know, there there's a 308 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: case for for more nuclear facilities, but you know, what's 309 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: the what's the outlook like for more nuclear I mean 310 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: you mentioned the emerging world. You know there's there's all 311 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: kinds of policy implications, but like what are what are 312 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: you seeing and what kind of timelines are these projects on. 313 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: It's a great question, Joe. So if you think about 314 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,239 Speaker 1: both the supply and the demand side and uranium very 315 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 1: long lived assets, it could take it. Take Cigar Lake 316 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: at one of the biggest uranium minds in the world, 317 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: owned by Chemico. It was a thirty plus year endeavor 318 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: from finding it to bringing it, permitting it. Nobody wants 319 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: one of these things in their backyard, right, so very 320 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: long live and the same thing on the demand side, 321 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: to to to to plan a reactor, to get the 322 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: approvals to build it. You know, you're talking decades plus. 323 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: So when you think of these things here we are, 324 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: you look out to say, okay, what's twenty look like. 325 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: And the World Nuclear Association, which does very holistic, bottoms 326 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: up approach utility by utility to what demand look like. 327 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,959 Speaker 1: And in many years they're there, they've been quite dowering 328 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: their outlook, but recently the last few years they've taken 329 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: that outlook up and if you just look at their 330 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: recently released demand report through you're looking at two points 331 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 1: six percent per annum and growth UH in in demand 332 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: for nuclear power. And that does not factor in what 333 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: you can expect to see, which would be um life 334 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: extensions out to eighty years for many of these reactors, 335 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: which many of them can get. It doesn't includes small 336 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: modular reactors which are easier, easier to build, more scalable. 337 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 1: So you're seeing a nice growth profile UH and it 338 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: doesn't take a big stretch with life extensions to push 339 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: up towards that three percent per annum growth, which is 340 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: a very reasonable growth number. Yeah. One one comment I 341 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: would out about the wind and Star don't give you 342 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: a couple of great ancdotes of recent So you look 343 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: at the uk UM in the last year, wind speeds 344 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: have been lower than average. You know that's just out 345 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: of their control. So what are they what are they've 346 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: had to do? Well, they had to fire up more 347 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: natural gas plants, which then caused creates more carbon offsets 348 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: that plants have to buy. And look look at last 349 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,880 Speaker 1: February when the winter storm hit Texas, when the turbines froze, 350 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: natural gas wells froze. The whole system went down at 351 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: a time when electricity demand spikes. So this whole narrative 352 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: about reliable baseload power I think is very important for 353 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 1: electrication of the grid um and also you know greenhouse 354 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: gas reduction targets. Yeah. No. On on the supply side, 355 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I think when when I first looked at 356 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: Mike's original thesis, what was so attractive is, as he 357 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: pointed out, the thesis actually didn't require any nuclear demand growth. 358 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,959 Speaker 1: You could write to zero. The issue is a supply 359 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: issue and a marginal cost production issue, and that you 360 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: need prices that are higher. And I think that's what 361 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: you've why the price and the and the equities have 362 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: been rallying so much recently, is up until now, the 363 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: demand story is is kind of there, and you've had 364 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: all these right sale kickers. What's been the issue is 365 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: there's been there's a supply denks at this form, you 366 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: don't actually have enough your anemy in the world to 367 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: power all these nuclear reactors. So just the demand growth 368 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: that we're seeing now is just exacerbating that supply deficit. 369 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: And and so you need that you need those higher 370 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: prices in order to incent new mind production to fill 371 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: that deficit. So let me jump in here with that 372 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: because I get this question on Twitter a lot. Does 373 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: this have room to run? And so if there's two 374 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: issues going on here, one is there was a supply problem, Well, 375 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: now you are a is up. I'm going to use 376 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: you are a in this example, sorry Tim, because it's 377 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: been around for like twelve years, you are a since 378 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: inception or since Fukushima is down still even with that 379 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: massive pop. So the chart looks like a big move 380 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: down and then a little a little like little dipper 381 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: up hasn't come up to where it was. How far 382 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 1: does have to run just on this supply issue? Pretend 383 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 1: there's no demand for nuclear is green energy? What's your 384 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: estimate on that room to run on just the supply story? 385 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: So it depends on you know, everyone likes to talk 386 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: about where does the market balance? Right, so what's some 387 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: marginal cost of production? And uh And the reality is 388 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: if you look at the four uranium cycles, it doesn't 389 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: work that way, right. It's it's a it's a commodity 390 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: where when when the price is down To give you 391 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: a little perspective, before the last cycle that really started 392 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: moving in November of two thousand when it bottomed out 393 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: at seven dollars. In those dollars um UH for the 394 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: prior several years it had the utilities which are the 395 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: by the vast majority of uranium UM. They because it's 396 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: long lived assets, its long life minds. Typically the end 397 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: is most uranium has purchased under long term contracts seven, eight, nine, 398 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: ten years and longer um. During the last bottom, when 399 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:50,239 Speaker 1: prices were had bottomed out in the high single digits UM, 400 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: they were contracting it about a third of their consumption 401 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 1: per year for many many years. You fast forward to today, 402 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: since twenty elve through one, they've been purchasing at about 403 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: a third of their annual consumption. When prices start moving 404 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: and and and requirements are uncovered into the future, they 405 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: start to have more and more out into the future. 406 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: In the last cycle, you saw them purchasing at one 407 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: one hundred and six for many years of their annual consumption. 408 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: So it's one of these things where you're looking in 409 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: and it what's the price of balances out? You know, 410 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: you could say sixty five seventy bucks you can bring 411 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: on the minds, but it's not that simple because these 412 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: you need many new minds to be built, and they're 413 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: not built yet. And if you look at the history 414 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: of bringing uranium minds online, it's very bad. So many 415 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: things can go wrong, and they're in tough countries to 416 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 1: get licenses and permits. Uh building them right now, you're 417 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: gonna be facing competition for equipment in people. But but 418 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: many of these minds need to be built. O. Um. 419 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: It depends where and and you know, you think about 420 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: how far can they run? It depends what price you're using. 421 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 1: If the market balances in the sixty five is seventy range, well, 422 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: last time that you were signing contracts at ninety and 423 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: a hundred dollars a hundred and it just to interrupt 424 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: you here right now it is trading in about forty bucks. Yeah, 425 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: it's trading forty four dollars, okay. And at Fukushima it 426 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: was what it was. Fushima was in the low seventies, 427 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: high sixties around around that. It had peaked at one 428 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 1: thirty seven in June seven. But when you're looking at 429 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: the question, you have to ask, is it because it's 430 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: a psychological battle, right, So fuel buyers have stayed out 431 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: of the market for so long, and that recency bias. 432 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: If you speak to them, they tell you there's all 433 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: the uranium in the world that's out there, right, Well, 434 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: johns him Potley is vehicle, which is very transparent, has 435 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: given the world to the fuel buyers four months to 436 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: know where coming we're going to be buying uranium on 437 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: a broker platform. Very trans Apparently you could go out 438 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 1: and buy uranium to secure that uranium. And what has 439 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: happened in those four months leading up to the launch 440 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: of the act the money offering from sprout Crickets, they 441 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: didn't show up. They bought hardly any uranium. So for 442 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: the first time in the history of uranium, John's vehicle 443 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: creates daily price discovery. And what we're learning the price 444 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: has gone from thirty to forty four in a month. 445 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: So what that's telling you is that all of the 446 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: market's perception about all this uranium that's sitting out there 447 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: is wrong. So now the question becomes is what price 448 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: did the producers say to the utilities, Sorry, we've had 449 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: a decade of devastation to our share price. Now we 450 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: need to make up and then you'll see where that balances. 451 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: So that's the current state. As if there isn't this 452 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: bigger picture. I want to pivot to this ten twenty 453 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: years down the road. One of the quotes I brought 454 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: up on stage. I'm not sure if you were there, 455 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: tim it Um. When I was on stage, I brought 456 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: up this Bill Gates quote if from tenth seventeen or eighteen. 457 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: I believe he said nuclear is ideal for dealing with 458 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: climate change because it's the only carbon phrase scalable energy 459 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: source that's available twenty four hours a day. Then Elon 460 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: musk Wade in about two months ago saying I'm pro nuclear. 461 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: I think modern nuclear power plants are safe. Contrary to 462 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: what people might think, it's possible to make extremely safe 463 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: nuclear energy. And then Michael Bury from The Big Short 464 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: tweeted out, if the government's going to spend two trillion, 465 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: there's no better use than converting the US to nuclear. 466 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: And those are three very influential people. They seem to 467 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: have come around mentally, they have access to Maybe maybe 468 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: they're more curious than most people, but let's face it, 469 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: there's a gap between what they say and what you'd 470 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: probably find if you pulled average people. They probably think 471 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: of Homer Simpson, Chernobyl Uh just you know, deformed fish, 472 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: how do how do you bridge that gap? You know, 473 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: you're seeing more and more since in the US nuclear 474 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: power is a bipartisan issue, right, which it never was. 475 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: It was the left versus the right. And now you're 476 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: seeing this realization that if you want to decarbonize the 477 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: world by twenty fifty, as everyone is coming out proclaiming 478 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: they want to do, you just have no choice. And 479 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: then that opens up the conversation and people's minds to say, okay, 480 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: well let's look at some of the data. And when 481 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: you look at the data, you know, we we we we. 482 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: We think of the movie The China Syndrome. You think 483 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 1: of three Mile Island at Chernobyl, Chernobyl. These are one 484 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: offs and yes, scary, dangerous, but on a when you 485 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: look at it, on a per terot hour of electricity produced, 486 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,719 Speaker 1: nothing is safer. So I think that opens up people's 487 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: minds and you take those those people you just mentioned 488 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: right right, people looking at it and saying we get it. 489 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 1: And I think if you look at public opinion polls, 490 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: they're turning to how long does it take one pound 491 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 1: of fuel to power light bulb? Right? So coal is 492 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: two days, now trall gas is three days. Nuclear sixty 493 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: forty years. So I mean, when you're talking about power 494 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: dead to be what it could really do, and then 495 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: you start to realize that it's a safe fuel, people 496 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: start to really think about that. Yeah. Eric. One other 497 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,479 Speaker 1: thing I would mention is the narrative shifting also related 498 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: to E s G, And obviously with COVID, e s 499 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: G has grown enormously in popularity, and from many of 500 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,120 Speaker 1: the investors I've talked to the last few months about uranium, 501 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: it's interesting that they're starting to bucket in with it 502 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: in this broader E s G theme, low carbon theme, 503 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: electrification theme. So it's going in a bunch of different 504 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 1: investors segments, which I think is really interesting. And um, 505 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: I think the other point around government policy really shifting. 506 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: I think you're seeing it in the with the Biden administration. 507 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: You're seeing it in the EU. They're obviously arguing it 508 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 1: for to be in the UH taxonomy. Um, and there 509 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: is you know, there are obviously countries of Germany that 510 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: have opted to move away for nuclear But I sit 511 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: there and I look and I say, now you want 512 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: to be beholden to Russian natural gats, Good luck with that. 513 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: I want to talk about one of the other challenges 514 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: UM and we mentioned this earlier, you know, which is 515 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: the waste challenge, right, And that's a that's a mental 516 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: hurdle that a lot of people have because, as Mike 517 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, it's it is something that is known, right, 518 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 1: it's you see it and you have to deal with it. 519 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: And maybe that's a little different than some of the 520 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: other offsets from energy. So what what kind of UH 521 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: horizon and breakthroughs are are there on the on the 522 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: waist front that people should know about. Sure, well, you know, 523 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: obviously with all things mining, you have to do with 524 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: all points of the life cycle, whether it's reclaiming a 525 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: side or dealing with nuclear um uh spent fuel. So 526 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: our technical advisor w MC Energy was asked that question 527 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: once with me and his response to that was quite interesting. 528 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: He said, no one's ever died from spent fuel odds 529 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: when you think about the depths that happen in coal mining, 530 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: oil and gas, etcetera. UM, it is safely stored. Nobody 531 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: wants it in their backyard and it's not putting, you know, 532 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: close to big populations, so it is safely stored. It 533 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: does rest there for very long periods of time. And 534 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: the radio activity levels of it decay very quickly in 535 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: the first five to ten years. So yes, we need 536 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: to find safe ways to store it. But I think 537 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: we all have to to look at the trade offs 538 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: with other forms of energy production. You know, for example, coal, 539 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: I think most people would be be shocked to know 540 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: that in the United States, which is a very you know, 541 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: one of the wealthiest countries in the world, of its 542 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: electricity still comes from coal. When I think of coal, 543 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: I think of people in horse and buggies a hundred 544 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: years ago. It's still a huge part of the energy mix. 545 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: And China coal has come down from it's still fifty 546 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: seven and we all know they have major pollution issues there. 547 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: So China has really figured out that they need to 548 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: build a much bigger fleet of reactors to deal with 549 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: their coal issue. And that's that's exactly what they're doing. Okay, 550 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: So Michael, China's the world's biggest polluter, right And where 551 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: are they at in this reactor conversation? And what will 552 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: those reactors actually look like? Sure? So, just just a 553 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: one more point on the on the waste. The solar 554 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: panels last years, but we're seeing they last a little 555 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: bit less and you're coming up to really your first 556 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: big period where you've seen the expiry of the useful life. 557 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: And one of the things with solar panels is they 558 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: go into the general electronic waste stream and there you 559 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: have nickel, laed, chromium, academium, all of these really toxic 560 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: chemicals that are just sitting out there. So that's a 561 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: real issue that I don't think gets enough attention to that. 562 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: Regarding China and UM, you know they have put forth 563 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: by they want to decar in eyes and UM. Going 564 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: back though, if you go back to the middle two 565 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: thousand five time frame, they were generating six seven giggle 566 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: watts of electricity and they made a seven or eight 567 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: nuclear reactors. You fast forward to today they have over 568 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: fifty nuclear reactors. So in fifteen years they've gone on 569 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: a major spree. And if you look at most of 570 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: the growth of nuclear power, uh, two thirds of that 571 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: is coming out of China. Uh. They're putting forward a 572 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: big wind and solar effort. Uh. The problem you have 573 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: when you do that is where as it generators generator 574 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: along the coast, and then you have to transport it 575 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: into the main land and you lose a lot of 576 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: the electricity that takes place. So China's nuclear program is 577 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: one where uh it is a little over fifty giggle 578 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: wats of electricity today. Uh, and you could see that 579 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: by twenty thirty and a hundred and thirty giggle wats 580 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: of electricity. And then they continue to keep growing, and 581 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: they plan on keep growing and growing. They could build 582 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: anywhere from ten to twelve reactors pretty year, and it's 583 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: something that's a very significant program for them. And it's 584 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: still a single digit percentage of their electricity generation, but 585 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: you know, it does provide clean baseload power to two 586 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: millions of people every time you build a reactor, So 587 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: they're very, very committed to it. They're a major driver 588 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: of the cycle. Okay, Mike, I gotta ask you because 589 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: this has been a really fascinating conversation, but um, effectively 590 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: you run a uranium hedge fund. Is that right? Correct? Okay? 591 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: So I gotta ask, like, what's it like to basically 592 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: like be a character and like a James Bond movie 593 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: every day? It's it's it's definitely interesting to read some 594 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: interesting characters around the world. I'll say, can I just 595 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: get a sense of like some of the interesting characters 596 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: that you encounter, are they like from the James Bond film. 597 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: I just say that my Russian and Kazak need need improvement. 598 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: I need to speak better Russian and Ka. You've probably 599 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: had some good vodka. Yes, that's that's the perk to 600 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: that job. Okay, Um, two quickies. I want to wrap here, 601 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: um just um. First on Tim. You know, we've seen 602 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: a couple of ETFs go from like nothing like oblivion. 603 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: We call it oblivion and just shoot up. It's almost 604 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: like when an indie movie hits the big time, like 605 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: Blair Witch Project, it happened to Jets, it happened to 606 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: Cathy Wood. I would say, and you know you r 607 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: n M is one of these funds that really, you know, 608 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: all the ads stacked against you, and now it's uh 609 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: what what well over half a billion dollars. It's now 610 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: trading about eighty million a day. I looked this time 611 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: last year between you and you are a you're trading 612 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: two million a day last year. On this day, you 613 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: guys trade about two million a day. I mean it's 614 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: a hundred times increase. I mean, what's that like when 615 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: it finally hits Uh, it's it's surreal my wife was 616 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: joking like I used to a year ago. I was saying, 617 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: I just want to get to fifty million, you know, 618 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: I just wanted to get to break even. But you know, 619 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: I don't know if who said it, but but good 620 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: things happened at cheap assets. And I've been a huge 621 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: believer in this thesis that Mike weighed out. It just 622 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: felt like at some point people would get would get 623 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: the story, and we just kind of had to keep 624 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: telling it and the vehicle felt right and listen that. 625 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: I think that the single best part of this experience 626 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: has been the money that we've made for people who 627 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: invested in the fund right, and a lot of our 628 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: a lot of our growth has been a result of performance. Right. 629 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: It was that the index was constructed correctly, you know, 630 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: thankfully for for us. We we decided to keep the 631 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: Sproat vehicle in UM when our competitors chose to have 632 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: it leave when they when they did the reorganization from 633 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: UPC and DI sprought UM. I think that's been a 634 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: big differentiator. But yeah, it's been fun. I mean, it's 635 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: been fascinating to watch some of these guys and I 636 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 1: always have had jets in the back of my mind. Um, 637 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: you know, maybe that could happen to us, but yeah, 638 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: it's been, it's been fascinating. Okay, last question, Tim, this 639 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: is something we do on every episode. Tim, what is 640 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: your favorite E t F ticker that is not your own? Um? 641 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: I really like the meta e t F like Matt 642 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 1: falls Medica CTF. I was I wanted to launch that 643 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: product so badly and when they and I think the 644 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: guys at Round Hill have just been so good and 645 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: so forward thinking about their tickers and their ideas. Um, 646 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: that that's my favorite right now. Okay, Mike, what's your 647 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: favorite ticker that's not Tim's? God? You know, Joel, I 648 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 1: don't don't repeat this. I don't. I don't pay attention. Okay, 649 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: all right, I'm so embrossed in uranium and energy that 650 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: I just I'm the wrong guy to ask. Okay, Sorry, 651 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: you're excused your you have you have some Kazakh stans 652 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: to have ovodda with you. Okay, you're busy. Yeah, and John, 653 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: how about yours? Well? Um, we like we like having 654 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: physical commodity funds, and we like this, we like to 655 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: pair them with mining funds. So I'm going to say 656 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: you are and m for pairing with you dot you okay, 657 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 1: we'll let you get away with it, all right, Yeah, 658 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: technically it's okay, it's sorry. Sorry, you guys are uranium heads. 659 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: What can you I mean? This is it's what you're 660 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: gonna get? That question normally would be most most applicable 661 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 1: to Tim, and and I think he answered it. We 662 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:33,320 Speaker 1: were satisfied with that, alright, Tim, Michael John, thank you 663 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: so much for joining us and Trillion. Thanks thanks, thanks guys, 664 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: thanks for listening to Trillions. Until next time. You can 665 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,760 Speaker 1: find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 666 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: and wherever else you like to listen. We'd love to 667 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 1: hear from you. We're on Twitter, I'm at Joe Webber Show. 668 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: He's at Eric Faltunas. This episode of Trillions was produced 669 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 1: by Magnus Hendrickson Francesca Leave, the head of Bloomberg Podcast. 670 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: Bye m m m mmm mmm mmmmmm mmm mmmmmmmmm