WEBVTT - 2025 Fried Egg Events, Top 100 Course Reactions, and Listener Questions

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<v Speaker 1>I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When

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<v Speaker 1>I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 1>And when I find my ball.

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<v Speaker 2>In a Friday Egg, Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday,

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<v Speaker 2>Frida Egg brid Egg, Frida Egg.

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<v Speaker 1>Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of

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<v Speaker 1>the hump course.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to the Friday Golf Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison,

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<v Speaker 2>and today we're doing a golf architecture mail bag. You

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<v Speaker 2>asked some questions on social media and we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>answer them. I'm going to bring in Andy Johnson to

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<v Speaker 2>help me do that. Should be a lot of fun.

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<v Speaker 2>But first, let's talk about USGA memberships. For more than

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred and twenty five years, the USGA has been

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<v Speaker 2>working to ensure that golf has a strong future, and

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<v Speaker 2>for almost fifty years, USGA members have given back to

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<v Speaker 2>the game they love by supporting programs and initiatives that

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<v Speaker 2>affect every aspect of the game, including junior golf, environmental sustainability,

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<v Speaker 2>the history of the game, and some of the biggest

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<v Speaker 2>championships in the sport. On top of making a difference

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<v Speaker 2>to the future of golf, USGA members also get back

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<v Speaker 2>great benefits like the US Open or US Women's Open

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<v Speaker 2>member hat, a personalized member bag tag, a subscription to

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<v Speaker 2>the USGA's Golf Journal, which is really excellent, and more.

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<v Speaker 2>You two can give back to golf and get back

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<v Speaker 2>great benefits by visiting USGA dot org slash fried Egg

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<v Speaker 2>and becoming a USGA member Today. All right, let's get

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<v Speaker 2>into our golf architecture mail bag.

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<v Speaker 1>Garrett I saw I saw the USGA's testing facility today.

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<v Speaker 2>From them, did you really you're you're You're out there

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<v Speaker 2>in the real what I like to refer to as

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<v Speaker 2>the real swamp, not not Jupiter, Florida, but rather North Carolina.

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<v Speaker 1>The sand Hills, the one of the least swampy terrains

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<v Speaker 1>in America.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's a metaphorical swamp.

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<v Speaker 1>I was. I saw the testing facility from afar. I asked,

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<v Speaker 1>what is that house and the caddy and the group said,

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<v Speaker 1>that's the USGA's testing facility.

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<v Speaker 2>So did you do some investigations of what's going on there?

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<v Speaker 1>Apparently they just got a machine that's hitting golf balls

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<v Speaker 1>all the time, testing.

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<v Speaker 2>And determining the future of the sport right there.

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<v Speaker 1>That's why you need to be a USGA member. They do.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, they can have testing facilities.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, they can have testing facilities. They can they

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<v Speaker 2>can actually bring some data to back up the upcoming rollback.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, I think they've done a lot of that.

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<v Speaker 1>How are you.

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<v Speaker 2>They have I'm pretty good. I'm pretty good recovering from

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<v Speaker 2>a bit of an illness. Though I know that people

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<v Speaker 2>are aware one that we had an off site meeting

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<v Speaker 2>last week in Austin where we all got together as

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<v Speaker 2>a company, had a great time together, and also that

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<v Speaker 2>Brendan was sick during your recording of the Shotguns Start podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'd just like to say for the record that

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<v Speaker 2>we have different illnesses.

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<v Speaker 1>I've got a cold, like I had a cold there,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, maybe I was. Yeah. I think PJ is

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<v Speaker 1>doing okay, though.

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<v Speaker 2>You're doing all right. Well, Pj's young. It's the youthfulness

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<v Speaker 2>that allows him to get through. Yeah. Well, anyway, so

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<v Speaker 2>I'm doing all right, but but but a little worse

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<v Speaker 2>for the wear, I guess you could say. But uh, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>excited to dig into some golf architecture topics you want

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<v Speaker 2>to you want to dive in.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we released our vet schedule. Yeah, I think a

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<v Speaker 1>good first question. So we do these events all over

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<v Speaker 1>the country, all over the world. This year we've got

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<v Speaker 1>a couple international trips. But I think one of the

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<v Speaker 1>neat things is seeing people, a big group of people

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<v Speaker 1>that have a genuine, genuine love of golf together experience

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<v Speaker 1>cool places, and we do these events all over the world,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's cool. It's always fun to see the reactions.

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<v Speaker 1>I have to ask you, you know you you you're

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<v Speaker 1>not like super involved with events. I think you give

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<v Speaker 1>input about what could be a cool event, what could

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<v Speaker 1>be a course? What you know? What are some event

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<v Speaker 1>course ideas?

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<v Speaker 2>Now that I'm kept away from the planning of them

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<v Speaker 2>pretty pretty far, I think people know that I don't

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<v Speaker 2>have much to contribute on that end.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm starting to be kept away from the planning too,

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<v Speaker 1>So that makes two of.

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<v Speaker 2>Us there are very organized, you know, dot the i's

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<v Speaker 2>across the t's people in our company who can deal

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<v Speaker 2>with this stuff better than you and I.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but I went from being heavily evolved to less involved.

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<v Speaker 1>But what's your favorite of the what's the event course

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<v Speaker 1>that that you most would want to go see in

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<v Speaker 1>the event? In an event on the schedule, on the.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd love to see on the schedule. I'd love to

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<v Speaker 2>see Colorado Golf Club. That one jumps out at me immediately.

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<v Speaker 2>I haven't been out to Colorado Golf Club before.

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<v Speaker 1>I've played some golf in Dnshaw, a core Crunshaw enthusiast.

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<v Speaker 2>This is true, this is true. I'm in the tank

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<v Speaker 2>for Coren Crenshaw. I have to I have to acknowledge that.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's disclose, I'm a Corn Crenshaw fanboy. In addition to that,

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<v Speaker 2>we've never had an event at Moraine before. Really cool

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<v Speaker 2>looking golf course in Ohio and has has been nicely restored,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I've seen a good amount of content about it,

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<v Speaker 2>but we I don't believe we've had an event there before.

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<v Speaker 1>So that one golf course. I played a USAM qualifier

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<v Speaker 1>there in probably about twenty sixteen. That's how I first

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<v Speaker 1>interacted with the golf course. I had seen a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit of a little photos and I saw the USAM

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<v Speaker 1>site come out, and I had I got a bunch

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<v Speaker 1>of my buddies to sign up, and there are two

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<v Speaker 1>of my buddies to sign up, and we road tripped

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<v Speaker 1>it from Chicago and playing It's It's really cool it's

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<v Speaker 1>it's got like a really great back part of the

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<v Speaker 1>lot for golf, but you have to navigate this huge

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<v Speaker 1>hill to get there. So it's interesting how both sides

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<v Speaker 1>of the course because you kind of play back down

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<v Speaker 1>it and playing down it's way easier than playing over it.

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<v Speaker 1>But is is phenomenal. I there are some holes that

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<v Speaker 1>I think about a lot out there. The seventh is

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<v Speaker 1>this great little short part four. The sixteenth is like

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<v Speaker 1>a very very dramatic part four that both those played

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<v Speaker 1>down the hill, and then there's some just really phenomenal

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<v Speaker 1>holes intermixed in it is my impression of it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it looks like a good piece of land and

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<v Speaker 2>yet at the same time maybe a kind of quirky property.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a very weird property. So like ten, ten, eleven, twelve,

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<v Speaker 1>there are like really flat It's interesting because it has

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<v Speaker 1>some like it has a mix of like super dramatic

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<v Speaker 1>elevation changes. It has a mix of really good like

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<v Speaker 1>perfectly scaled golf ground, and then it's got like a

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<v Speaker 1>flat section and the flat section has some like pretty

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<v Speaker 1>interesting greens. Like the tenth holes really neat. It kind

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<v Speaker 1>of like bends right and has this green that like

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<v Speaker 1>just sits up. It's like a little tabletop. Green falls

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<v Speaker 1>off everywhere. So it's a really diverse set of of holes,

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<v Speaker 1>like there's different portions of the property. And Alex Nipper

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<v Speaker 1>Campbell Alex. I think it's Alex. It might be Alex

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<v Speaker 1>or Alex Knipper.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm pretty sure it's Alex, Alex, Alex Nipper Campbell. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>his name Nipper is in quotes. Yeah, that's his nickname.

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<v Speaker 2>That's how he was known as Nipper Campbell Nipper.

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<v Speaker 1>He designed a ton of courses in the Dayton area.

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<v Speaker 1>But that's it. And he was in the country club, Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>he was involved. He was a hoppro yeh believe if

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<v Speaker 1>my memory serves me correct.

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<v Speaker 2>He's one of those early kind of I believe Scottish.

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<v Speaker 2>He's one of those early kind of spreaders of the

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<v Speaker 2>game in the US. And he just showed up kind

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<v Speaker 2>of some places and did pretty cool architectural work.

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<v Speaker 1>It is. It's really cool. It gets totally overshadowed by

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<v Speaker 1>Inverness and Camargo. But I would say that I, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>at least one of those two courses, I would play

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<v Speaker 1>in Marine way more out of ten than I really

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<v Speaker 1>like Marine. I've been dying to go back. Honestly, since

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<v Speaker 1>I played that tournament, I haven't been back. And yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it's always been on my mind of somewhere that I've

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to go back and shoot. But I'm thrilled to

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<v Speaker 1>be there. They hosted the Western m last year. That

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<v Speaker 1>would have been a fun tournament to go watch. But

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<v Speaker 1>it's a it's a really cool place. So Marine is

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<v Speaker 1>your Coloradria would be.

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<v Speaker 2>Golf Club looks sensational. Both of those courses you've been

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<v Speaker 2>to and written about. Are there any courses on here?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean mid Ocean obviously, it's like.

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<v Speaker 1>Mid Ocean. You know, a couple of course beyond displayed

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<v Speaker 1>mid Ocean, a couple of days of breviewed us. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's pretty nice, you know. I would say the the

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<v Speaker 1>other one that I am particularly keen on, And this

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<v Speaker 1>is an easy answer for me, because I love it

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<v Speaker 1>in the in the area, Belvedere, Kingsley Club, a night

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<v Speaker 1>in between. Northern Michigan's about as good as it gets.

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<v Speaker 1>I absolutely loved both of those golf courses. I love

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<v Speaker 1>the area. It's the perfect time of year to be there.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, there's anytime you could say it's the perfect

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<v Speaker 1>time of year to be in Traverse City anytime from

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<v Speaker 1>about July first to the beginning of October. But it's

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<v Speaker 1>a great time to play golf. So Belvedere and Kingsley Club,

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<v Speaker 1>that one, to me for two day is pretty awesome,

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<v Speaker 1>two really different golf courses, two really different properties, And

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<v Speaker 1>like you know, it's it's if you did that. The

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<v Speaker 1>right way for me to do that is you go in,

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<v Speaker 1>you go in Friday, spend the weekend in Traverse City,

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<v Speaker 1>and then it's a Sunday Monday event and then you're

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<v Speaker 1>in and then you fly out. Actually, like sneaky, Traverse

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<v Speaker 1>City is getting pretty easy to get to, is the

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<v Speaker 1>other thing. You can fly direct from a lot more

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<v Speaker 1>places than than before. So that would be that'd be

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<v Speaker 1>the event that I'm I kind of got my eye on.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, there are a lot of good ones. I

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<v Speaker 1>love Skokie. That's of course that I always like love

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<v Speaker 1>going to play from when I was a kid, the

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<v Speaker 1>occasional times that I would get to go in high school,

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<v Speaker 1>I could I could rattle off all of these.

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<v Speaker 2>Sky is another first time host of an event. Pretty

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<v Speaker 2>cool to see that one on there that there's there's

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<v Speaker 2>been some good work there recently to kind of recover

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<v Speaker 2>the courses architectural lineage, and and it's uh yeah, it's

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<v Speaker 2>a great place and high high density population area. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>it's basically I mean just north of Chicago. It's it's

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<v Speaker 2>right in there.

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<v Speaker 1>It's our first Chicago event. We've never had an event

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<v Speaker 1>in Chicago.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh that's right. Yeah, and finspecting Chicago, well I've moved out,

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<v Speaker 2>I could.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, it's like the adage, you know, you don't

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<v Speaker 1>you don't take poops where you live, right, whatever, What's

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<v Speaker 1>what's the adage?

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<v Speaker 2>What's the well, uh, you know, well I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>more profane than that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's it's but but yeah, so now that I

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<v Speaker 1>don't live there, isn't that an.

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<v Speaker 2>Adage about not not having affairs with people? Yeah, work with?

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<v Speaker 2>Isn't that what it's about?

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, I think that's what it is.

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<v Speaker 2>It's also good advice, all right, Anyway, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Messed that up. But anyways, that's the events. You can see.

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<v Speaker 1>It's all over socials, it's in club tf if you remember,

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<v Speaker 1>just all over our social medias.

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<v Speaker 2>Lots of lots of club TFE specific events this year.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you're interested in those, then joining Club TFE

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<v Speaker 2>would be a great step toward participating in them. And

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<v Speaker 2>uh yeah, wonderful lists that our that our team put together.

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<v Speaker 2>There a lot of there have been some questions about

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<v Speaker 2>the geographic coverage of the events. You know, West Coast

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<v Speaker 2>is not super well represented yet. But just keep in

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<v Speaker 2>mind that this list is uh, you know, it's not

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<v Speaker 2>going to change a lot, but there might be some

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<v Speaker 2>things added, some things, you know, So so just stay tuned.

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<v Speaker 2>We're not disrespecting your part of the country. And we'll

0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.760
<v Speaker 2>also you know, year on year we we we get

0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:02.679
<v Speaker 2>to places eventually. So yeah, Andy and I would not

0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:05.240
<v Speaker 2>disrespect the West Coast. We both live here. In fact.

0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well that's probably why we're not hosting anything in

0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:10.920
<v Speaker 1>the Pacific Northwest is because of what I just said.

0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:12.800
<v Speaker 1>You don't want to you know, you know, I want

0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:14.760
<v Speaker 1>to expecis with pleasure, right there.

0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:18.560
<v Speaker 2>You go, exactly. Yeah, I can't come to Portland, all right, Andy,

0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:20.920
<v Speaker 2>next topic I wanted to talk with you about before

0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:25.319
<v Speaker 2>we get to the mail bag questions. The big discussion

0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:30.439
<v Speaker 2>point in the golf architecture realm of golf discourse lately

0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:32.640
<v Speaker 2>has been the release of the golf dot Com Top

0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:37.240
<v Speaker 2>one hundred list. This is America's top one hundred courses

0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:42.360
<v Speaker 2>according to golf dot COM's panel. Some of the headlines here.

0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.160
<v Speaker 2>The Lido enters at number thirty in the US.

0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.920
<v Speaker 1>I bet I guarantee you have some thoughts about that.

0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:54.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Old Barnwell enters at fifty one. Interlock In, recently

0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:57.600
<v Speaker 2>renovated by Andrew Green re enters re enters the list

0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:01.360
<v Speaker 2>at seventy three. It had dropped out before. Medna number three,

0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:06.640
<v Speaker 2>redesigned by Ogil V. Cocking and mead OCM, a great

0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:11.480
<v Speaker 2>architecture firm from Australia, re enters at seventy four. Ladera

0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.439
<v Speaker 2>gil Hans's new course in the California Desert enters the

0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:19.800
<v Speaker 2>list at eighty seven. Pinehurst number ten, which you have

0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:23.040
<v Speaker 2>played quite recently, in fact, maybe a couple of couple

0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:28.760
<v Speaker 2>of hours ago in the eighty eight, so you're I

0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.880
<v Speaker 2>don't know, maybe you have some thoughts. Sancity head old

0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:36.520
<v Speaker 2>course but has recently come back into fashion. I suppose

0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:39.360
<v Speaker 2>enters the list at ninety two for the first time.

0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:41.520
<v Speaker 2>Old Elm comes in at ninety four.

0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:44.360
<v Speaker 1>Oh my, I didn't even realize Old Elm.

0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.920
<v Speaker 2>Old Elm, So hey, you thing Sins are changing, Trinity

0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.640
<v Speaker 2>Forrest comes in at ninety six, Philly Cricket re enters

0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.440
<v Speaker 2>at ninety eight. Those are all the new courses on

0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:53.840
<v Speaker 2>the list.

0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:56.920
<v Speaker 1>Some of this stuff like with Sancity and Old Elm,

0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.840
<v Speaker 1>I think they finally reached a raider a mass and

0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:03.520
<v Speaker 1>and Old ELM's done like some amazing work over the

0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:04.440
<v Speaker 1>years to get there.

0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.680
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I mean Old Elm has been bubbling under

0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.280
<v Speaker 2>the surface for a while where people have been talking

0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:13.720
<v Speaker 2>about how good it is, and then now finally enough

0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:15.760
<v Speaker 2>people perhaps from the panel, have gotten there.

0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:21.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's it's awesome. I mean, it's one of one

0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:22.600
<v Speaker 1>of my favorite courses in the world.

0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.280
<v Speaker 2>So any any thoughts about some of that stuff that

0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:27.920
<v Speaker 2>I've Yeah, it is pretty low on the list, probably

0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.760
<v Speaker 2>should be higher. Any thoughts about what I just went

0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:32.640
<v Speaker 2>over there, some of the new courses on the list,

0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:33.760
<v Speaker 2>any an he takes there.

0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.280
<v Speaker 1>I think I really, I really like the golf dot

0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:40.880
<v Speaker 1>Com list in terms of, like I think the list

0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:45.280
<v Speaker 1>that I most resonate with of the of the major

0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:49.600
<v Speaker 1>lists that you see out there. I think it it

0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:53.520
<v Speaker 1>kind of so just in general, I think like I

0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.280
<v Speaker 1>don't have anything that like I really see the world

0:15:56.640 --> 0:16:00.960
<v Speaker 1>differently then I do think like just over arching, like

0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.480
<v Speaker 1>you start to see who's tumbling down, and for the

0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:09.080
<v Speaker 1>most part, like big tumblers down are our new golf

0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:12.880
<v Speaker 1>courses that the newness of them is where it's square enough.

0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's like golf courses that may be opened or

0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:21.040
<v Speaker 2>got renovated in the mid twenty tens or somewhere around there.

0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:25.160
<v Speaker 2>So we're talking about some of the biggest tumblers. NPCC Dunes,

0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:28.480
<v Speaker 2>Gamble Sands took a bit of a tumble.

0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:32.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So like to be like what kind of happens

0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:37.160
<v Speaker 1>is that courses do renovation work and then they and

0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:40.320
<v Speaker 1>they get that new bump and it's like good work.

0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.360
<v Speaker 1>But it's like, I mean, I think one of the

0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:45.760
<v Speaker 1>things just overarching with the golf architecture world that I

0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.400
<v Speaker 1>don't like that's going on is like the keeping up

0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:53.160
<v Speaker 1>with the Joneses that's happening, and it's totally happening. You know,

0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.640
<v Speaker 1>a lot of it is based around these rankings, and

0:16:57.280 --> 0:16:59.880
<v Speaker 1>it's like, oh, we fell ten spots, we need to

0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.080
<v Speaker 1>we because we fell ten spots, we need to you know,

0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:07.600
<v Speaker 1>this is oversimplifying everything. I want to be clear here.

0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:13.920
<v Speaker 1>This is me just oversimplifying, irresponsible rhetoric, but like the

0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:17.760
<v Speaker 1>general is like we're falling. We fall in twenty five

0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.720
<v Speaker 1>spots over the last five years. We better go spend

0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:26.600
<v Speaker 1>fifteen million dollars to go back up, right, And that's

0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:29.480
<v Speaker 1>what the cycle is. That's like kind of how it works.

0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:33.280
<v Speaker 1>And new courses come in and new courses are the

0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.280
<v Speaker 1>most everybody wants to go see. Everybody wants to know

0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:39.000
<v Speaker 1>how new courses are, you know, the first couple of

0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.040
<v Speaker 1>years they jump onto the list and then they can

0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:46.400
<v Speaker 1>fall out, right, Yeah, And I think, you know, overarching

0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.959
<v Speaker 1>like about those Like that's just kind of my general

0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.720
<v Speaker 1>idea and trends of what this is like when I

0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:58.040
<v Speaker 1>look at it from a big picture, is like it's

0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.280
<v Speaker 1>courses that got renovated and new courses of the early

0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:06.920
<v Speaker 1>twenty tens are falling down and new courses and courses

0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.080
<v Speaker 1>that were freshly renovated or going up.

0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:13.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah that's right, Yeah, I mean, and that's not to

0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.399
<v Speaker 2>say that they didn't do good work at interlock In

0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:18.280
<v Speaker 2>and Medina number three, which are the two kind of

0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:23.840
<v Speaker 2>big ticket re entries onto the list important courses that

0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:26.760
<v Speaker 2>were worked on recently. Again, Andrew Green did the work

0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:30.040
<v Speaker 2>at Interlocking in OCM at Medina. I think that work

0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.600
<v Speaker 2>has been really good. You've seen you've seen both both

0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.560
<v Speaker 2>courses post work, I think, and your impressions have been

0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:40.120
<v Speaker 2>very positive. But guess who the smartest looking courses right

0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:44.480
<v Speaker 2>now on this list are overall, and that's the Fisher's Island,

0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.200
<v Speaker 2>the National Golf Links, the courses that have preserved as

0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:51.000
<v Speaker 2>opposed to getting caught up in these trends.

0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:56.560
<v Speaker 1>That's not that's not fair. That's are working, they're working

0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.240
<v Speaker 1>with a different set of cards. That's like saying that

0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:03.439
<v Speaker 1>you know you drew a full house, you know.

0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:07.160
<v Speaker 2>Had just never changed in the first place.

0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. True, But like I think, like I think one

0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:15.399
<v Speaker 1>of the things that that's not the way. History doesn't

0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:21.240
<v Speaker 1>work that way with everywhere, you know, heads never changed.

0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:23.080
<v Speaker 2>Now all of a sudden it's a top one hunter

0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:23.680
<v Speaker 2>golf course.

0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:28.560
<v Speaker 1>I just think. I mean, Old ELM's gone through a

0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.920
<v Speaker 1>dramatic transformation. I played Old Elm in high school golf

0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:38.720
<v Speaker 1>matches and it is un recognizable. It was it was

0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:42.000
<v Speaker 1>like the like sure what it was like the of

0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:44.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, you just go get lost in all the

0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:47.520
<v Speaker 1>trees out there. It was like a tunnel every hole.

0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:53.680
<v Speaker 1>So I just think, like I think, like Madonna and

0:19:55.040 --> 0:20:01.119
<v Speaker 1>interlock In, Interlockin's Land is like truly extra ordinary. It

0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:07.320
<v Speaker 1>is like mesmerizing golf land, and it's really cool. I

0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:10.639
<v Speaker 1>think Medina is like a completely different story because they

0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:13.760
<v Speaker 1>completely blew up, They put their foot in the ground

0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:16.560
<v Speaker 1>and they just said, we're going to a completely different direction.

0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:20.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but my course has been has been really really

0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:24.560
<v Speaker 2>kind of like the way the way the course looked

0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:28.399
<v Speaker 2>ten years ago was so much different than what it

0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.480
<v Speaker 2>was originally. There's no there's nothing to go back to

0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:33.840
<v Speaker 2>at Medyna number three. Basically, it's just gone.

0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I'd like I think like one of the things

0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:41.359
<v Speaker 1>I appreciate about Medina number three is I think they

0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:46.160
<v Speaker 1>understood that they the golf course. Honestly, the golf course

0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:49.040
<v Speaker 1>no better they were. I think there were top ten

0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:51.600
<v Speaker 1>in the rankings at one point, but that golf course

0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:56.399
<v Speaker 1>probably never was a great golf course ever in its history.

0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.680
<v Speaker 1>And I think like some places need to realize this

0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:06.600
<v Speaker 1>is like we were never an extraordinary, extraordinary golf course.

0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:12.160
<v Speaker 1>And at what point do we give up saying like, okay,

0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:16.840
<v Speaker 1>we're at ninety percent of what we can be. Are

0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:20.000
<v Speaker 1>we really going to spend fifteen million dollars to get

0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:23.720
<v Speaker 1>to ninety six percent of what we can be because

0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:27.720
<v Speaker 1>that's like I was having a conversation with Tom Doak

0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:31.040
<v Speaker 1>honestly today about this, and he brought up how he

0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:36.359
<v Speaker 1>wrote this in his Anatomy of a Golf Course, literally

0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:41.960
<v Speaker 1>like thirty years ago, about how much clubs spend to

0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:45.280
<v Speaker 1>get to eighty percent. I think is what it was.

0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:48.560
<v Speaker 1>I think the numbers eighty percent, and how you basically

0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:52.399
<v Speaker 1>have to spend double to add ten percent after that

0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:57.480
<v Speaker 1>on your maintenance budget or your architecture. And to me,

0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:02.000
<v Speaker 1>like my question, and I didn't mean this to be this,

0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:07.159
<v Speaker 1>but my question is is it worth the money? Is

0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.280
<v Speaker 1>it worth the extra million dollars you spend every year

0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:13.399
<v Speaker 1>and maintenance to go from ninety percent of what your

0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:15.880
<v Speaker 1>course could look like to you know what we get?

0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:21.080
<v Speaker 1>Like our playing conditions are ten percent better thirty days

0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:23.680
<v Speaker 1>a year, and we spent a million dollars to do that.

0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:28.080
<v Speaker 1>Like is anybody gonna notice that? And with golf courses,

0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:32.399
<v Speaker 1>I love, like I am absolutely in the business of

0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:35.720
<v Speaker 1>when golf courses renovate, it's good for me. I have

0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:38.719
<v Speaker 1>new stuff to talk to talk about we have new

0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:42.440
<v Speaker 1>stuff to kick around. But like a lot of golf courses,

0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:47.639
<v Speaker 1>I wonder, Okay, so, like you're gonna renovate your golf course,

0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:52.040
<v Speaker 1>you're gonna spend fifteen million dollars, and maybe you're a

0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:55.800
<v Speaker 1>dope five and you're gonna spend fifteen million dollars and

0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:59.200
<v Speaker 1>you're gonna go to doke six, Like what are we doing?

0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:02.719
<v Speaker 1>Like in a Dinah's case, I think if they had

0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:07.200
<v Speaker 1>done a renovation without significant changes, they would have gone

0:23:07.280 --> 0:23:11.440
<v Speaker 1>from what I believed was like a five to maybe

0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:15.840
<v Speaker 1>a six. And I think, like, from my perspective, the

0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:19.120
<v Speaker 1>thing I appreciate about what they did was they said,

0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:23.040
<v Speaker 1>we are going to try and do something way different,

0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:25.200
<v Speaker 1>and we think we're going to be better because of it.

0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:29.080
<v Speaker 1>And they are way better because they did something wildly

0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:32.000
<v Speaker 1>different out of the box. And I think, like a

0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:36.160
<v Speaker 1>lot of courses restore something that should never have been restored.

0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:40.359
<v Speaker 1>At this point, I've swung the pendulum on how I

0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:44.200
<v Speaker 1>feel about this, but there are so many restorations being

0:23:44.320 --> 0:23:48.040
<v Speaker 1>done of golf courses that frankly shouldn't be restored. You

0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:51.440
<v Speaker 1>could find a better solution if you went with a renovation.

0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:54.040
<v Speaker 1>It just takes a lot, and you're gonna spend the

0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:54.880
<v Speaker 1>same amount of money.

0:23:56.359 --> 0:23:59.359
<v Speaker 2>Well, and it takes really good taste too. You have

0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:02.280
<v Speaker 2>to have a good architect Yeah, because it's way hard,

0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:06.680
<v Speaker 2>it's way riskier because once you commit to big changes,

0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:12.760
<v Speaker 2>then you're in danger of it being fifty years from

0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:15.440
<v Speaker 2>now and you're in the same position that Oakland Hills

0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:19.760
<v Speaker 2>was when it looked at it's Robert Trent jonesified South

0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:23.000
<v Speaker 2>Course and was like, this was the wrong decision. You know,

0:24:23.600 --> 0:24:25.920
<v Speaker 2>we went in the wrong direction and now we've got

0:24:26.000 --> 0:24:29.320
<v Speaker 2>a completely reversed course. It's just it's tough.

0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:32.760
<v Speaker 1>Well, this is the beautiful thing about golf architecture is

0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:36.960
<v Speaker 1>that it's like clothing. I mean, yeah, I literally went

0:24:37.119 --> 0:24:41.359
<v Speaker 1>home this summer to my house. I don't know if

0:24:41.359 --> 0:24:43.159
<v Speaker 1>I've told this story on Era. I went home to

0:24:43.280 --> 0:24:46.440
<v Speaker 1>my house and I was looking in my old closet

0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:50.359
<v Speaker 1>and I found I saw that there's some shoes still

0:24:50.400 --> 0:24:53.320
<v Speaker 1>in it, and there's a pair of burket stocks that

0:24:53.480 --> 0:24:56.879
<v Speaker 1>I wore in high school. And I was like, wow,

0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:01.800
<v Speaker 1>burger Stocks are back. And I put them on and

0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:05.960
<v Speaker 1>they still fit, and I brought them, brought them back

0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:09.720
<v Speaker 1>to my house and I wear them, And I think, like,

0:25:10.000 --> 0:25:14.680
<v Speaker 1>the thing that's amazing about a golf architecture is twenty

0:25:14.760 --> 0:25:18.160
<v Speaker 1>years from now, they're going to think somebody is going

0:25:18.240 --> 0:25:21.480
<v Speaker 1>to think that everything we were doing right now in

0:25:21.640 --> 0:25:24.960
<v Speaker 1>time was stupid, yeah, and that they should be doing

0:25:25.040 --> 0:25:27.359
<v Speaker 1>things this way. And who knows what it's going to be.

0:25:27.640 --> 0:25:31.000
<v Speaker 1>It could be a run back to like long rough.

0:25:31.440 --> 0:25:33.840
<v Speaker 1>I hope not. I hope it's not. It would be

0:25:33.880 --> 0:25:38.320
<v Speaker 1>great for my golf game, you know, yeah, but it would.

0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:41.560
<v Speaker 1>It's you know, it could be that or like I

0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:44.280
<v Speaker 1>think that's like the fascinating thing is like we're absolutely

0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:48.200
<v Speaker 1>in a trend time capsule, and I think people sometimes

0:25:48.280 --> 0:25:49.359
<v Speaker 1>forget to think about that.

0:25:50.520 --> 0:25:53.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, this is why I think that courses that decide

0:25:53.200 --> 0:25:57.000
<v Speaker 2>who they are from their inception and just stick with

0:25:57.200 --> 0:26:02.480
<v Speaker 2>it through thick and thin can end up seeming pretty smart.

0:26:02.840 --> 0:26:02.959
<v Speaker 1>Now.

0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:06.800
<v Speaker 2>This calculus is different for courses that host championships, because

0:26:06.840 --> 0:26:09.880
<v Speaker 2>those courses want to host the championship now, They want

0:26:09.920 --> 0:26:12.560
<v Speaker 2>to be relevant now, and so I understand why they

0:26:12.640 --> 0:26:15.600
<v Speaker 2>make the decisions that they make. But those courses that

0:26:15.840 --> 0:26:20.600
<v Speaker 2>just decide from from the very beginning, for better or worse,

0:26:21.400 --> 0:26:24.920
<v Speaker 2>this is what this golf course is and we're just

0:26:25.040 --> 0:26:29.440
<v Speaker 2>gonna stick with it. Those courses end up, you know,

0:26:29.600 --> 0:26:33.000
<v Speaker 2>the fashions come back around, and we end up valuing

0:26:33.040 --> 0:26:37.960
<v Speaker 2>those courses that express something of a particular time period authentically.

0:26:39.560 --> 0:26:42.399
<v Speaker 1>I think though, like one of the things what you

0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:47.919
<v Speaker 1>said about like National and Fisher's Island and Crystal Downs,

0:26:48.400 --> 0:26:50.240
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there was a time period none of those

0:26:50.280 --> 0:26:51.120
<v Speaker 1>were in the top ten.

0:26:51.960 --> 0:26:54.120
<v Speaker 2>That's that's what I'm referring to. Yeah, if you look

0:26:54.160 --> 0:26:56.600
<v Speaker 2>at a Golf Digest list from the nineteen seventies, those

0:26:56.680 --> 0:26:57.400
<v Speaker 2>courses were shit.

0:26:58.240 --> 0:27:01.560
<v Speaker 1>So I will say this is like all all of

0:27:01.680 --> 0:27:09.040
<v Speaker 1>those had like absolute extraordinary properties. Yeah, And I think,

0:27:09.160 --> 0:27:13.880
<v Speaker 1>like it's hard, it's hard to compare, Like I always think,

0:27:14.000 --> 0:27:18.960
<v Speaker 1>you get like to me, to me, like the top

0:27:19.080 --> 0:27:23.359
<v Speaker 1>ten are all on, Like, there isn't one course in

0:27:23.440 --> 0:27:26.240
<v Speaker 1>the top ten of this list, and the top ten

0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:31.480
<v Speaker 1>is Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Shinnecock, National Golf Links of America, Oakmont,

0:27:31.840 --> 0:27:36.560
<v Speaker 1>I guess, the National, Sandhills, Marion, Pebble Beach in Lacc.

0:27:36.320 --> 0:27:38.720
<v Speaker 2>North, exactly the same ones that everybody else has.

0:27:39.680 --> 0:27:42.960
<v Speaker 1>So if you get to eleven Fishers, like at that point,

0:27:43.560 --> 0:27:47.720
<v Speaker 1>there is not one ordinary piece of golf ground there.

0:27:47.960 --> 0:27:51.720
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, at twelve, we have our first piece of

0:27:51.880 --> 0:27:58.120
<v Speaker 1>truly extraordinary golf architecture that elevates a rather like it's

0:27:58.160 --> 0:28:03.800
<v Speaker 1>a good piece of land, but are rather ordinary Chicago golf.

0:28:04.320 --> 0:28:06.639
<v Speaker 1>And like I think Piner's number two is in a

0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:07.480
<v Speaker 1>similar boat.

0:28:08.000 --> 0:28:09.639
<v Speaker 2>I think both of those should be higher.

0:28:10.240 --> 0:28:13.560
<v Speaker 1>But but you're kicking down. Yeah, I know you're kicking down.

0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:15.800
<v Speaker 2>You know who I'm kicking You know exactly who I'm

0:28:15.840 --> 0:28:22.159
<v Speaker 2>kicking down. I've made my opinions perfectly clear on the

0:28:22.200 --> 0:28:23.200
<v Speaker 2>subject of Pebble Beach.

0:28:27.640 --> 0:28:32.040
<v Speaker 1>It went up to spots, did it? What? What about?

0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:34.680
<v Speaker 1>Their work got better over the last year. They brought

0:28:34.760 --> 0:28:39.080
<v Speaker 1>boat fairway lights in so that there's not fairway running

0:28:39.160 --> 0:28:41.120
<v Speaker 1>up to the cliffs of the Pacific Coast.

0:28:41.160 --> 0:28:42.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's the thing. I mean, it's just like we

0:28:43.080 --> 0:28:45.760
<v Speaker 2>have to remind ourselves from time to time that these

0:28:45.840 --> 0:28:51.920
<v Speaker 2>lists are fundamentally ridiculous. Well they're just there's no justifying them,

0:28:52.400 --> 0:28:55.840
<v Speaker 2>aside from just saying they're kind of fun to talk

0:28:55.880 --> 0:28:57.959
<v Speaker 2>about and debate. And here we are talking about them,

0:28:58.000 --> 0:29:00.360
<v Speaker 2>so we're doing golf dot COM's work for them. But

0:29:00.840 --> 0:29:04.080
<v Speaker 2>this is a ridiculous exercise. And I really wish people

0:29:04.120 --> 0:29:08.360
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't do it. But you know, I recognize why the

0:29:08.600 --> 0:29:12.960
<v Speaker 2>magazines and golf media companies feel it necessary to continue

0:29:12.960 --> 0:29:15.040
<v Speaker 2>to rate courses in this matter, but it's just a

0:29:15.600 --> 0:29:18.040
<v Speaker 2>it's just an absurd thing.

0:29:18.120 --> 0:29:22.640
<v Speaker 1>That we do. I think the other the list has

0:29:22.760 --> 0:29:25.520
<v Speaker 1>to change because it can't not change.

0:29:25.320 --> 0:29:29.440
<v Speaker 2>Right exactly. You're like, they can't change it too much.

0:29:30.040 --> 0:29:31.760
<v Speaker 2>Nothing changed, Yeah.

0:29:32.240 --> 0:29:36.200
<v Speaker 1>Here's the new list, the same because we went through

0:29:36.240 --> 0:29:39.840
<v Speaker 1>a period of time where like nothing really was happening. Yeah,

0:29:39.880 --> 0:29:42.160
<v Speaker 1>you know, not a lot of new courses were being built.

0:29:42.280 --> 0:29:44.960
<v Speaker 1>It would be amazing if it'd be amazing to see

0:29:45.000 --> 0:29:46.840
<v Speaker 1>a list that never changed.

0:29:46.960 --> 0:29:49.080
<v Speaker 2>What if they just canceled it one year and said

0:29:49.360 --> 0:29:50.080
<v Speaker 2>nothing changed.

0:29:50.120 --> 0:29:54.280
<v Speaker 1>Sorry. I mean it's a huge website traffic boom, but

0:29:54.560 --> 0:29:55.520
<v Speaker 1>well and yeah.

0:29:55.440 --> 0:29:58.760
<v Speaker 2>And it's always been that way, not for the website,

0:29:58.880 --> 0:30:03.600
<v Speaker 2>but as a mag zine seller. Nothing is better for

0:30:04.040 --> 0:30:06.920
<v Speaker 2>golf magazines than this top one hundred list. It's a

0:30:07.000 --> 0:30:10.720
<v Speaker 2>sensation and that's the reason it exists and and why

0:30:10.800 --> 0:30:14.400
<v Speaker 2>it keeps coming back around, and you know, and so

0:30:14.480 --> 0:30:16.160
<v Speaker 2>we're just kind of caught in this caught in this

0:30:16.640 --> 0:30:19.320
<v Speaker 2>vicious circle with it, and sometimes I just want to

0:30:19.320 --> 0:30:19.800
<v Speaker 2>get out of it.

0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:23.200
<v Speaker 1>I mean honestly though, Like if you look through this list,

0:30:23.480 --> 0:30:26.680
<v Speaker 1>I know you have your grievances with Pebble Beach. I

0:30:26.800 --> 0:30:30.360
<v Speaker 1>have like no in like I think I've talked about

0:30:30.400 --> 0:30:33.440
<v Speaker 1>this on this podcast before. But like you know, if

0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:38.160
<v Speaker 1>you asked me, do you want to play Pacific Dunes

0:30:38.720 --> 0:30:45.560
<v Speaker 1>or or let's just go with one that's or we'll

0:30:45.600 --> 0:30:51.120
<v Speaker 1>go Pacific Dunes or Augustin Nashvill, I've played both of them.

0:30:51.280 --> 0:30:53.680
<v Speaker 1>Not a humble brag. This is not a humble brag,

0:30:54.280 --> 0:30:59.440
<v Speaker 1>but honestly, some days and people would say this is crazy.

0:30:59.840 --> 0:31:03.200
<v Speaker 1>I think I probably play as many rounds of Pacific

0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:07.120
<v Speaker 1>Dunes is Augustin National. Like to me, they aren't very different.

0:31:08.760 --> 0:31:13.480
<v Speaker 2>M Well, that that's because you're asking the question which

0:31:13.520 --> 0:31:16.760
<v Speaker 2>one would I rather play, which is a question that

0:31:17.000 --> 0:31:21.840
<v Speaker 2>asks for a subjective response and therefore an honest response,

0:31:22.200 --> 0:31:24.400
<v Speaker 2>which I find to be interesting, right because we could

0:31:24.400 --> 0:31:27.000
<v Speaker 2>then have a discussion about that why you why you

0:31:27.040 --> 0:31:30.240
<v Speaker 2>would prefer to play you know, Pacific Dunes over Augusta National.

0:31:30.280 --> 0:31:33.440
<v Speaker 2>If you're given ten rounds, But when you ask the

0:31:33.520 --> 0:31:36.760
<v Speaker 2>question what is the greatest course, then that presumes that

0:31:36.840 --> 0:31:40.520
<v Speaker 2>we're about to have a discussion of objective quality, which

0:31:40.560 --> 0:31:45.080
<v Speaker 2>is where I think the ridiculousness. It's a subjective thing.

0:31:45.680 --> 0:31:48.360
<v Speaker 2>That's that's why. Yes, that's the Yeah. I think that's

0:31:48.400 --> 0:31:50.320
<v Speaker 2>what I'm saying when I say that this is an

0:31:50.360 --> 0:31:54.760
<v Speaker 2>absurd exercise because it's it's presenting itself as something authoritative,

0:31:54.840 --> 0:31:57.960
<v Speaker 2>but it just can't ever be that, because that that

0:31:58.080 --> 0:32:01.480
<v Speaker 2>doesn't exist when it comes to evaluating golf courses. But

0:32:01.600 --> 0:32:03.680
<v Speaker 2>one thing I do find interesting about the golf dot

0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:05.800
<v Speaker 2>Com list, and maybe this should be the last thing

0:32:05.880 --> 0:32:06.800
<v Speaker 2>we say about it before we.

0:32:06.840 --> 0:32:09.080
<v Speaker 1>Move on, But maybe we just won't get a question.

0:32:09.280 --> 0:32:12.600
<v Speaker 2>Maybe we'll just it'll just be the rest of the podcast.

0:32:12.960 --> 0:32:15.440
<v Speaker 2>We'll still call it a golf Architecture mailbag podcast. I'll

0:32:15.480 --> 0:32:18.960
<v Speaker 2>still be the title. But one thing I do find

0:32:19.040 --> 0:32:22.960
<v Speaker 2>interesting about this list is as a kind of survey

0:32:23.800 --> 0:32:27.680
<v Speaker 2>of the opinions of the golf intelligentsia at a particular moment,

0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:31.360
<v Speaker 2>because I think that's what golf dot COM's panel is,

0:32:32.200 --> 0:32:35.040
<v Speaker 2>in contrast to the Golf Digest panel, which is huge

0:32:35.560 --> 0:32:38.840
<v Speaker 2>and kind of a big tent and composed of I

0:32:38.960 --> 0:32:41.560
<v Speaker 2>think a different kind of golfer for the most part,

0:32:41.960 --> 0:32:44.520
<v Speaker 2>and the Golf Week list, which is in some ways similar.

0:32:46.360 --> 0:32:48.480
<v Speaker 2>The golf dot Com list is like a sort of

0:32:48.640 --> 0:32:52.959
<v Speaker 2>hand selected list of insiders, of people who are very

0:32:53.000 --> 0:32:56.240
<v Speaker 2>well informed generally about golf courses and golf course architecture,

0:32:56.480 --> 0:32:58.959
<v Speaker 2>who are well traveled, who have read all the books

0:32:59.000 --> 0:33:02.120
<v Speaker 2>and had all the conversation with all the people, and

0:33:03.160 --> 0:33:06.800
<v Speaker 2>these are This is a view into what they think,

0:33:07.160 --> 0:33:10.360
<v Speaker 2>what they think is hot at a particular moment. And

0:33:11.240 --> 0:33:15.040
<v Speaker 2>what's interesting is right now in that group, in that

0:33:15.280 --> 0:33:20.120
<v Speaker 2>segment of the golf obsessed population, Old Barnwell is hot,

0:33:20.920 --> 0:33:24.840
<v Speaker 2>the Lido is hot, Walter Travis is hot. Courses like

0:33:24.920 --> 0:33:27.400
<v Speaker 2>Sancity Head are hot. You know what I would bet.

0:33:27.440 --> 0:33:28.960
<v Speaker 2>I would place a bet right now that at some

0:33:29.040 --> 0:33:31.920
<v Speaker 2>point we're going to see wild Horse in Nebraska enter

0:33:32.000 --> 0:33:36.480
<v Speaker 2>this list within the next few years. If the composition

0:33:36.560 --> 0:33:37.760
<v Speaker 2>of the panel stays.

0:33:37.560 --> 0:33:41.040
<v Speaker 1>The same, if enough people get out there, that's that's

0:33:41.680 --> 0:33:43.920
<v Speaker 1>that's a big and that's a big if. If the

0:33:44.280 --> 0:33:47.160
<v Speaker 1>composition of the panel remains the same is a bit

0:33:47.280 --> 0:33:47.840
<v Speaker 1>is a big if.

0:33:48.120 --> 0:33:51.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, Yeah, not necessarily something, that's for sure.

0:33:52.240 --> 0:33:55.200
<v Speaker 2>The panel that exists right now in some ways reflects

0:33:55.240 --> 0:33:58.800
<v Speaker 2>the personality of the architecture editor at golf dot com

0:33:58.880 --> 0:34:01.920
<v Speaker 2>who has been for the past few years, Rand Morrisset.

0:34:02.480 --> 0:34:05.360
<v Speaker 2>And that's why this list is maybe the most appealing

0:34:05.520 --> 0:34:08.560
<v Speaker 2>of the lists to you and me, Andy, because Rand Morrisset,

0:34:09.000 --> 0:34:11.719
<v Speaker 2>the founder of golf club at lists, is a big

0:34:11.800 --> 0:34:14.400
<v Speaker 2>influence on the way you and I think about golf courses,

0:34:14.440 --> 0:34:16.239
<v Speaker 2>and that website, golf club at list is a big

0:34:16.320 --> 0:34:20.800
<v Speaker 2>influence on your and my education in this subject. And

0:34:20.960 --> 0:34:22.840
<v Speaker 2>so yeah, that list is going to turn out to

0:34:22.880 --> 0:34:25.720
<v Speaker 2>be a little more congenial to us than some others,

0:34:26.120 --> 0:34:28.200
<v Speaker 2>and so I find it interesting for that reason. It's

0:34:28.320 --> 0:34:32.160
<v Speaker 2>kind of a temperature check on where we are in

0:34:32.800 --> 0:34:36.839
<v Speaker 2>what we consider to be quality golf course architecture, as

0:34:36.880 --> 0:34:39.520
<v Speaker 2>opposed to a representation of what are actually the best

0:34:39.600 --> 0:34:42.200
<v Speaker 2>golf courses, which is always an impossible thing to do.

0:34:42.800 --> 0:34:48.719
<v Speaker 1>Can I ask one final question here? Sure, say, what's

0:34:49.120 --> 0:34:51.440
<v Speaker 1>the one course that when you see it on one

0:34:51.520 --> 0:34:56.480
<v Speaker 1>of these lists you get irrationally upset that it's I'll

0:34:56.520 --> 0:34:57.080
<v Speaker 1>give you by.

0:34:57.160 --> 0:34:59.759
<v Speaker 2>Too, Okay, I mean I'm not looking at the list

0:34:59.840 --> 0:35:02.440
<v Speaker 2>right now. Why don't you give me yours and I'll

0:35:02.800 --> 0:35:06.360
<v Speaker 2>bring the list up. And I have a couple of ideas,

0:35:06.440 --> 0:35:07.239
<v Speaker 2>but I want to make sure.

0:35:08.440 --> 0:35:14.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna say the one that is

0:35:14.120 --> 0:35:17.680
<v Speaker 1>like the first one that I'm just like irrationally upset about,

0:35:19.160 --> 0:35:23.399
<v Speaker 1>is Bandon Dunes being number forty nine.

0:35:26.760 --> 0:35:29.719
<v Speaker 2>I andy just steering into trash.

0:35:29.840 --> 0:35:34.799
<v Speaker 1>I can't, I can't do it. I can't. I think,

0:35:34.840 --> 0:35:37.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, I don't know. I guess I'm just gonna

0:35:37.680 --> 0:35:40.239
<v Speaker 1>say it. Why would I? I just am at the

0:35:40.320 --> 0:35:43.080
<v Speaker 1>point I never want to play the golf course again

0:35:43.160 --> 0:35:45.600
<v Speaker 1>if I'm at the resort, I'd rather spend my time

0:35:45.680 --> 0:35:49.520
<v Speaker 1>other places. And I just don't think that means that

0:35:49.600 --> 0:35:52.920
<v Speaker 1>it's the top fifty golf course in the country, so

0:35:53.080 --> 0:35:56.600
<v Speaker 1>that that's like, I the only reason I'll go play

0:35:56.680 --> 0:36:00.279
<v Speaker 1>Bandon dune'es if I'm at Bandon Dune's golf resort, as

0:36:00.320 --> 0:36:03.719
<v Speaker 1>if somebody in my group really really wants to play it.

0:36:03.920 --> 0:36:07.040
<v Speaker 1>Otherwise I'll spend my time at any of the other

0:36:07.360 --> 0:36:08.120
<v Speaker 1>golf courses.

0:36:09.719 --> 0:36:12.680
<v Speaker 2>I think you might be able to guess mine, But

0:36:13.400 --> 0:36:16.839
<v Speaker 2>I always see it on these lists way way too high,

0:36:17.680 --> 0:36:20.960
<v Speaker 2>just like irrationally high, and I just don't get it.

0:36:21.600 --> 0:36:28.720
<v Speaker 2>And that's the East course at o'kille Country Club. Sorry,

0:36:28.800 --> 0:36:31.040
<v Speaker 2>I don't get it. I don't. It's like fine, it's

0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:34.120
<v Speaker 2>a fine, fine golf course. It's like a second tier

0:36:34.239 --> 0:36:37.400
<v Speaker 2>Donald Ross design on an okay piece of land, Like

0:36:38.480 --> 0:36:40.760
<v Speaker 2>what are we doing here? Why is this a top thirty,

0:36:40.840 --> 0:36:43.800
<v Speaker 2>top forty golf course? What is it about it? I

0:36:43.920 --> 0:36:45.600
<v Speaker 2>just don't. I don't see it. I don't get it.

0:36:46.040 --> 0:36:48.600
<v Speaker 1>I think your Golf Digest it was rated ahead of

0:36:48.960 --> 0:36:52.960
<v Speaker 1>lacc which I thought was like insane, it's so hard.

0:36:53.040 --> 0:36:55.279
<v Speaker 2>It might be above Pinehurst number two on that Golf

0:36:55.360 --> 0:36:58.680
<v Speaker 2>Digest list. I'm sorry. If that's not the case, I apologize,

0:36:58.719 --> 0:37:02.640
<v Speaker 2>but like, I feel like Pinehurst number two is one

0:37:02.680 --> 0:37:06.000
<v Speaker 2>of America's great works of golf architecture. I mean talk

0:37:06.040 --> 0:37:09.080
<v Speaker 2>about like perfect, you know, this place is amazing.

0:37:10.040 --> 0:37:12.439
<v Speaker 1>I think the other thing that needs to be said

0:37:12.440 --> 0:37:17.520
<v Speaker 1>about Pinehurst number two versus the courses that are around it,

0:37:18.880 --> 0:37:24.160
<v Speaker 1>is what goes into presenting a golf course when you

0:37:24.680 --> 0:37:28.279
<v Speaker 1>literally have like I don't know exactly the rounds that

0:37:28.360 --> 0:37:31.800
<v Speaker 1>are played at Pinehurst number two, but it's probably fifty

0:37:31.880 --> 0:37:36.200
<v Speaker 1>thousand rounds a year, or roughly forty. Maybe it's forty.

0:37:36.600 --> 0:37:39.840
<v Speaker 1>I mean right now, while I'm at this resort, I

0:37:39.880 --> 0:37:43.160
<v Speaker 1>think they're doing double t starts starting at like seven

0:37:43.320 --> 0:37:45.840
<v Speaker 1>thirty in the morning on Pineer's number two, So they

0:37:45.920 --> 0:37:49.000
<v Speaker 1>tee off one to ten in the morning and afternoon

0:37:49.080 --> 0:37:51.359
<v Speaker 1>so they can get the maximum number of people out

0:37:51.440 --> 0:37:54.120
<v Speaker 1>on the golf course. So you just think about, like

0:37:54.320 --> 0:37:58.680
<v Speaker 1>what goes into presenting that golf course versus you know,

0:37:58.840 --> 0:38:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Chicago golf that maybe gets eight thousand rounds a year.

0:38:02.080 --> 0:38:04.759
<v Speaker 1>It's not the same. It's like and I always think

0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:07.719
<v Speaker 1>about like, and I'm not saying that I want this

0:38:07.880 --> 0:38:10.319
<v Speaker 1>to happen. I don't want this to happen Pineherst number

0:38:10.360 --> 0:38:12.800
<v Speaker 1>two being available and open to the public. But I

0:38:12.960 --> 0:38:15.960
<v Speaker 1>also think, like, what would Pineher's number two look like

0:38:16.200 --> 0:38:19.720
<v Speaker 1>if it had eight thousand rounds played instead of forty

0:38:19.760 --> 0:38:23.840
<v Speaker 1>eight thousand rounds played a year. It would be dramatically

0:38:23.960 --> 0:38:25.120
<v Speaker 1>differently presented.

0:38:26.440 --> 0:38:30.560
<v Speaker 2>It would be differently received too, by top one hundred panels.

0:38:30.800 --> 0:38:34.320
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I don't think even in our even in

0:38:34.440 --> 0:38:38.080
<v Speaker 2>our era, even after all the work that everybody has

0:38:38.160 --> 0:38:42.040
<v Speaker 2>done to to highlight the virtues of public courses, that

0:38:42.120 --> 0:38:46.440
<v Speaker 2>there is still a public course penalty in these in

0:38:46.560 --> 0:38:47.200
<v Speaker 2>these rankings.

0:38:49.800 --> 0:38:51.239
<v Speaker 1>This big of me to go after one of the

0:38:51.320 --> 0:38:53.160
<v Speaker 1>few public courses on the corn.

0:38:54.880 --> 0:38:57.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we should. We should start insulting Beth Page Black too,

0:38:59.320 --> 0:39:00.759
<v Speaker 2>all right now before.

0:39:00.760 --> 0:39:02.560
<v Speaker 1>That could be one of the biggest sleepers.

0:39:03.080 --> 0:39:05.560
<v Speaker 2>It's probably it's probably a little too high on this list,

0:39:05.600 --> 0:39:07.600
<v Speaker 2>but there are a lot of public courses that just

0:39:07.760 --> 0:39:11.680
<v Speaker 2>don't make this list at all that that probably deserve

0:39:11.800 --> 0:39:17.320
<v Speaker 2>to be on there. In any case, let's talk about

0:39:17.880 --> 0:39:21.160
<v Speaker 2>red rooster golf clubs before we get to our golf

0:39:21.280 --> 0:39:24.440
<v Speaker 2>architecture male bag questions. Listen, I don't have the smooth

0:39:24.560 --> 0:39:28.120
<v Speaker 2>segues like Brendan has I. You know, I'm I'm not

0:39:28.239 --> 0:39:28.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm not professional.

0:39:29.200 --> 0:39:30.960
<v Speaker 1>Here's how you here's how you could have done it.

0:39:31.080 --> 0:39:33.239
<v Speaker 1>You could have said. Okay, now that we've gotten a

0:39:33.360 --> 0:39:38.120
<v Speaker 1>grip on the golf dot Com rankings, let's talk about

0:39:38.600 --> 0:39:40.560
<v Speaker 1>what you're using for your grips.

0:39:40.880 --> 0:39:49.720
<v Speaker 2>And speaking of speaking of aggressive advertising, that's just really

0:39:49.880 --> 0:39:53.759
<v Speaker 2>in your face. Let's let's move from the golf dot

0:39:53.840 --> 0:39:59.000
<v Speaker 2>Com discussion to red rooster golf clubs. PJ is sitting

0:39:59.040 --> 0:40:02.400
<v Speaker 2>in his booth right now, just waving and thumbs downing

0:40:02.560 --> 0:40:04.279
<v Speaker 2>all of these things that we're saying right now. So

0:40:04.360 --> 0:40:06.800
<v Speaker 2>let's just let's just get to the eye copy. So

0:40:07.360 --> 0:40:11.600
<v Speaker 2>it is black Friday all month long at Red Rooster Golf.

0:40:11.800 --> 0:40:14.680
<v Speaker 2>This is a great company that makes awesome golf gloves

0:40:15.000 --> 0:40:17.680
<v Speaker 2>that you and I use, Andy, so we can we

0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:19.080
<v Speaker 2>can personally testify to you.

0:40:19.560 --> 0:40:23.920
<v Speaker 1>I want to say, how long till November is just

0:40:24.040 --> 0:40:28.960
<v Speaker 1>Black Friday? You know how long til Black? Just known? Yeah?

0:40:31.120 --> 0:40:34.800
<v Speaker 1>But anyways, these gloves. So the club TFE member gift

0:40:35.440 --> 0:40:39.120
<v Speaker 1>was a Red Rooster glove with a Friday glogo on it,

0:40:39.800 --> 0:40:44.399
<v Speaker 1>and I got so many texts from people like very

0:40:44.480 --> 0:40:48.360
<v Speaker 1>good players, people that I know from competitive golf that

0:40:48.480 --> 0:40:51.920
<v Speaker 1>were like, can I buy like a whole pack of these?

0:40:52.200 --> 0:40:56.520
<v Speaker 1>These gloves are incredible, They're great gloves. I were my

0:40:56.680 --> 0:41:00.440
<v Speaker 1>Red Rooster today. I only have one. I don't really

0:41:00.480 --> 0:41:03.239
<v Speaker 1>go through club gloves very quick. I need to get more.

0:41:03.480 --> 0:41:04.960
<v Speaker 1>I need to order more.

0:41:05.640 --> 0:41:07.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, nobody, nobody wants to be next to the guy

0:41:07.920 --> 0:41:11.160
<v Speaker 2>with the sweaty, crackly gloves exact. But the thing about

0:41:11.200 --> 0:41:13.240
<v Speaker 2>Red Roaster gloves is that they're really soft.

0:41:13.600 --> 0:41:16.839
<v Speaker 1>I don't wear out gloves. I'm I don't grip. I don't.

0:41:17.040 --> 0:41:19.120
<v Speaker 1>My hand doesn't sweat very much and I don't grip

0:41:19.200 --> 0:41:22.960
<v Speaker 1>the club tightly, so I don't. I don't burn through gloves.

0:41:23.040 --> 0:41:25.719
<v Speaker 1>Like a lot of people, I have good glove. I

0:41:25.800 --> 0:41:28.640
<v Speaker 1>have good glove at aquid. It's not like they're stinky

0:41:28.719 --> 0:41:33.759
<v Speaker 1>and smelly, but they are they Anyways, this Red Rooster

0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:37.800
<v Speaker 1>glove's great. They're really high performance gloves. It's I like,

0:41:37.920 --> 0:41:41.440
<v Speaker 1>one of the things I appreciate is like entrepreneurs that

0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:43.640
<v Speaker 1>go out to solve an issue and they wanted to

0:41:43.719 --> 0:41:45.520
<v Speaker 1>make a better glove. And I think they've made a

0:41:45.719 --> 0:41:47.080
<v Speaker 1>really damn good glove.

0:41:48.320 --> 0:41:51.520
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so let's talk about the deal. November twentieth through

0:41:51.600 --> 0:41:55.759
<v Speaker 2>twenty six is free shipping all week on everything now.

0:41:56.960 --> 0:42:00.319
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0:42:00.360 --> 0:42:04.000
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0:42:04.120 --> 0:42:06.799
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<v Speaker 2>available basically this coming week. Then November twenty seventh through

0:42:12.040 --> 0:42:16.279
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0:42:16.400 --> 0:42:19.719
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0:42:19.760 --> 0:42:24.520
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0:42:24.600 --> 0:42:28.200
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0:42:28.239 --> 0:42:31.080
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0:42:31.080 --> 0:42:33.840
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0:42:33.920 --> 0:42:36.960
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0:42:44.160 --> 0:42:49.160
<v Speaker 2>the most of these holiday sales at Redrooster golf dot com.

0:42:49.760 --> 0:42:52.279
<v Speaker 2>All right, want to get to some golf architecture mail

0:42:52.320 --> 0:42:52.920
<v Speaker 2>bag questions?

0:42:52.960 --> 0:42:55.440
<v Speaker 1>Andy, Oh yeah, can't wait.

0:42:56.320 --> 0:42:57.640
<v Speaker 2>Okay, let me start you.

0:42:57.719 --> 0:42:58.120
<v Speaker 1>With this one.

0:42:58.320 --> 0:43:02.759
<v Speaker 2>This is from Matt mcgloff, Matt Matt McLoughlin on Blue Sky.

0:43:03.920 --> 0:43:06.560
<v Speaker 2>This is this is a question from Blue Sky. Who

0:43:06.840 --> 0:43:11.640
<v Speaker 2>is the Matt Iberflus golf course architecture?

0:43:19.640 --> 0:43:24.040
<v Speaker 1>I think I think like Matt Eberfluss runs a pretty

0:43:24.080 --> 0:43:27.440
<v Speaker 1>good defense, so he's like got half. He's somebody that

0:43:27.520 --> 0:43:30.359
<v Speaker 1>gets like halfway there, but it has like pure incompetence

0:43:30.600 --> 0:43:34.840
<v Speaker 1>in the other half has no game management skills, so

0:43:35.080 --> 0:43:39.520
<v Speaker 1>you know, overall management not good. Maybe has like a

0:43:39.600 --> 0:43:48.960
<v Speaker 1>few good good characteristics. I would maybe go generally aloof

0:43:49.920 --> 0:43:58.640
<v Speaker 1>I would maybe go with maybe Dick Wilson. Now that's

0:43:58.920 --> 0:44:04.240
<v Speaker 1>that's too too being to Dick Wilson. Honestly, I think.

0:44:04.160 --> 0:44:06.839
<v Speaker 2>Dick Wilson built some good golf courses, but he did

0:44:06.960 --> 0:44:08.520
<v Speaker 2>have his limitations, right.

0:44:08.480 --> 0:44:10.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, No, that's the thing. Like it's kind of like

0:44:11.920 --> 0:44:15.040
<v Speaker 1>Maddy Verfluse runs like his cover two. Dick Wilson's like

0:44:15.239 --> 0:44:17.440
<v Speaker 1>very much like a lot of bunkers, Like it was

0:44:17.560 --> 0:44:19.759
<v Speaker 1>just kind of throw bunkers at it. I think Dick

0:44:19.800 --> 0:44:23.000
<v Speaker 1>Wilson is pretty decent. Maybe Joe Lee, Maybe I go

0:44:23.120 --> 0:44:28.160
<v Speaker 1>with Dick Wilson's un rolling Joe Lee, who he destroyed

0:44:28.200 --> 0:44:30.759
<v Speaker 1>a lot of good golf courses in Chicago too, So

0:44:31.040 --> 0:44:37.960
<v Speaker 1>that fits. Matdiflus has destroyed bear fans hearts for now

0:44:38.120 --> 0:44:41.440
<v Speaker 1>three years running. So yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that,

0:44:41.840 --> 0:44:42.160
<v Speaker 1>all right.

0:44:42.560 --> 0:44:45.719
<v Speaker 2>How about Tom tom Weiscoff. Tom Weiscoff is my thought

0:44:46.239 --> 0:44:48.839
<v Speaker 2>r I P. By the way, you know, we're very

0:44:48.920 --> 0:44:53.000
<v Speaker 2>sorry about his his passing. But Tom Weiscoff, I feel

0:44:53.239 --> 0:44:55.760
<v Speaker 2>is a very good architect in a lot of ways.

0:44:56.239 --> 0:44:58.560
<v Speaker 2>But his courses just did have some kind of key

0:44:59.120 --> 0:45:01.920
<v Speaker 2>limitations when it came to some cookie cutter shaping and

0:45:02.200 --> 0:45:04.400
<v Speaker 2>things like that. So that's what comes to mind from

0:45:04.440 --> 0:45:07.680
<v Speaker 2>your description of Matt Eberflus, though I think Tom Weiskoff

0:45:07.719 --> 0:45:09.960
<v Speaker 2>may have been a better golf architect than Matt. Eberflus

0:45:10.080 --> 0:45:12.000
<v Speaker 2>is a football coach.

0:45:12.520 --> 0:45:16.920
<v Speaker 1>All right, putterfly asks you what design issues do PAR

0:45:17.000 --> 0:45:19.400
<v Speaker 1>three courses have over traditional courses?

0:45:20.480 --> 0:45:24.799
<v Speaker 2>So is this question more like, what what design problems

0:45:25.120 --> 0:45:29.200
<v Speaker 2>do PAR three courses have as opposed to traditional courses?

0:45:29.480 --> 0:45:32.480
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. Is I think you should just the

0:45:32.640 --> 0:45:33.840
<v Speaker 1>state of PAR three courses?

0:45:33.920 --> 0:45:39.399
<v Speaker 2>PAR three courses. Sure, par three courses. I guess they're

0:45:39.440 --> 0:45:42.600
<v Speaker 2>kind of having a moment in terms of, not necessarily

0:45:42.640 --> 0:45:44.759
<v Speaker 2>in terms of a lot of them getting built, but

0:45:44.880 --> 0:45:47.520
<v Speaker 2>in terms of how much people say they want them.

0:45:48.880 --> 0:45:52.920
<v Speaker 2>But I would say that the issue with building a

0:45:52.960 --> 0:45:56.160
<v Speaker 2>PAR three course, the thing that's challenging about building a

0:45:56.239 --> 0:46:01.080
<v Speaker 2>short course is finding true variety. You have just one

0:46:01.200 --> 0:46:04.879
<v Speaker 2>part three after another. You need to work really hard

0:46:05.520 --> 0:46:08.440
<v Speaker 2>to find that hole to whole variety and to make

0:46:08.520 --> 0:46:11.439
<v Speaker 2>sure that each hole is memorable after the round. That's

0:46:11.480 --> 0:46:15.279
<v Speaker 2>a really tall task when you're only working with one

0:46:15.400 --> 0:46:18.439
<v Speaker 2>kind of hole well, and I think the courses, well,

0:46:18.640 --> 0:46:20.680
<v Speaker 2>the short courses that do it well are amazing.

0:46:21.320 --> 0:46:23.680
<v Speaker 1>The other aspect of it is that you're dealing with

0:46:23.800 --> 0:46:28.920
<v Speaker 1>small pieces of land that don't have diversity in landscapes. Yeah, right,

0:46:29.680 --> 0:46:32.520
<v Speaker 1>Like one of the things is like a big eighteen

0:46:32.560 --> 0:46:37.440
<v Speaker 1>hole golf course navigates, you know, just to say two

0:46:37.560 --> 0:46:42.840
<v Speaker 1>hundred acres, especially new bills two hundred acres plus of property.

0:46:43.400 --> 0:46:46.520
<v Speaker 1>So you you go into like all these different places

0:46:46.800 --> 0:46:50.640
<v Speaker 1>and there's space to have big landforms like PAR three

0:46:50.719 --> 0:46:55.880
<v Speaker 1>courses situate you know, sub forty acres, and a lot

0:46:55.960 --> 0:46:58.000
<v Speaker 1>of times they're kind of like built off to the

0:46:58.120 --> 0:47:01.719
<v Speaker 1>side on like, hey, this land we can't use for

0:47:01.840 --> 0:47:06.440
<v Speaker 1>anything else, go build. It's kind of like I think

0:47:06.480 --> 0:47:10.640
<v Speaker 1>there's like a great design renaissance with PAR three courses,

0:47:11.080 --> 0:47:13.680
<v Speaker 1>but I do think it still is. I remember Bill

0:47:13.760 --> 0:47:16.839
<v Speaker 1>Corr talking about how like PAR three courses and when

0:47:16.880 --> 0:47:19.960
<v Speaker 1>he was growing up were known as executive courses, and

0:47:20.200 --> 0:47:24.000
<v Speaker 1>they were they're not like you know, they weren't thought

0:47:24.040 --> 0:47:26.839
<v Speaker 1>of a real golf courses. I still think that we're

0:47:26.880 --> 0:47:30.600
<v Speaker 1>at the stage where developers do not consider PAR three

0:47:30.680 --> 0:47:34.080
<v Speaker 1>courses a great use of great land. They're just like, okay,

0:47:34.560 --> 0:47:38.239
<v Speaker 1>prioritize it. Yeah, we can't put a built a full

0:47:38.360 --> 0:47:41.800
<v Speaker 1>course here, So here you go. You could use this

0:47:41.920 --> 0:47:44.759
<v Speaker 1>as your PAR three course. And I think that puts

0:47:44.800 --> 0:47:49.279
<v Speaker 1>a huge emphasis on just green design. If you don't

0:47:49.360 --> 0:47:53.120
<v Speaker 1>have diverse land features, I think like.

0:47:53.680 --> 0:47:56.719
<v Speaker 2>And skill in green design, like sure skill, because like

0:47:57.239 --> 0:48:00.480
<v Speaker 2>any architect can make nine green, say if it's a

0:48:00.560 --> 0:48:02.799
<v Speaker 2>nine hole par three course, can make nine grains really

0:48:02.840 --> 0:48:05.880
<v Speaker 2>different from each other, but some of them are going

0:48:05.920 --> 0:48:09.520
<v Speaker 2>to be ridiculous looking or just kind of stupid. To

0:48:09.640 --> 0:48:12.399
<v Speaker 2>build a bunch of part three grains that really work

0:48:12.600 --> 0:48:16.040
<v Speaker 2>and are also really different from each other takes a

0:48:16.120 --> 0:48:16.640
<v Speaker 2>lot of skill.

0:48:17.440 --> 0:48:19.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I think like one of the things that

0:48:19.520 --> 0:48:22.680
<v Speaker 1>I don't think par three courses in general, I'd rather

0:48:22.800 --> 0:48:27.759
<v Speaker 1>see less holes and more variety in yardage then the

0:48:27.880 --> 0:48:31.399
<v Speaker 1>current I feel like the current thing is just like, hey,

0:48:31.600 --> 0:48:34.759
<v Speaker 1>just build a bunch of one hundred and twenty sub

0:48:34.800 --> 0:48:36.879
<v Speaker 1>one hundred and twenty yard holes, and I think that's

0:48:36.960 --> 0:48:39.359
<v Speaker 1>kind of boring. It's just like, oh, I'm just gonna

0:48:39.360 --> 0:48:41.440
<v Speaker 1>go hit a little wedge over and over and over

0:48:41.480 --> 0:48:44.640
<v Speaker 1>and over again for however many holes you've created. And

0:48:44.800 --> 0:48:47.480
<v Speaker 1>now the new things don't make it nine or eighteen,

0:48:47.800 --> 0:48:52.520
<v Speaker 1>so you know, whatever number between nine and why don't

0:48:52.560 --> 0:48:55.160
<v Speaker 1>we just why don't Like A question I always have

0:48:55.320 --> 0:48:57.560
<v Speaker 1>is like why don't we have like a four hole course,

0:48:57.880 --> 0:49:00.920
<v Speaker 1>a short four whole short course that's like one hundred

0:49:00.920 --> 0:49:03.239
<v Speaker 1>and twenty yard hole one hundred and seventy yard hole

0:49:03.480 --> 0:49:07.320
<v Speaker 1>one two twenty. I'd play that. I'd love to play it.

0:49:07.400 --> 0:49:10.279
<v Speaker 1>And you know, does the business models just not work?

0:49:11.760 --> 0:49:15.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Maybe maybe if the resorts that have a lot

0:49:16.000 --> 0:49:19.080
<v Speaker 2>of these courses are charging what they charge for around it,

0:49:19.320 --> 0:49:22.640
<v Speaker 2>like Bandon Shorties or Bandon preserve that if it's a

0:49:22.719 --> 0:49:26.440
<v Speaker 2>five hole course, then they just can't make that be efficient.

0:49:27.080 --> 0:49:30.759
<v Speaker 2>But I don't know. It just seems like a lot

0:49:30.840 --> 0:49:35.440
<v Speaker 2>of the destination resorts that are building the most exciting

0:49:35.560 --> 0:49:40.439
<v Speaker 2>par three courses are building them as amenities, not as

0:49:40.800 --> 0:49:45.400
<v Speaker 2>cornerstones of profitability, right, And so if you're building it,

0:49:46.400 --> 0:49:48.160
<v Speaker 2>hold on presumably.

0:49:48.400 --> 0:49:52.319
<v Speaker 1>I think it's a cornerstone of their profitability because they've

0:49:52.480 --> 0:49:56.680
<v Speaker 1>realized it's like the perfect afternoon place that people that

0:49:56.800 --> 0:49:59.640
<v Speaker 1>can't they get. They get a charge of greens, fee

0:50:00.120 --> 0:50:03.279
<v Speaker 1>of sixty or whatever, and then they know people are

0:50:03.360 --> 0:50:05.799
<v Speaker 1>going there and it's like half golf, half bar.

0:50:07.400 --> 0:50:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're right, they can I think a drinks.

0:50:10.200 --> 0:50:13.600
<v Speaker 1>I think it's a profit center. And it's on a

0:50:13.800 --> 0:50:17.359
<v Speaker 1>piece of land that is like otherwise unused. I'm more

0:50:17.440 --> 0:50:19.440
<v Speaker 1>talking about like why is it? Why is it anybody

0:50:19.480 --> 0:50:22.720
<v Speaker 1>ever built like a four hole course on a tiny

0:50:22.800 --> 0:50:23.439
<v Speaker 1>piece of land.

0:50:24.480 --> 0:50:28.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that would be like a an independent course.

0:50:29.719 --> 0:50:32.359
<v Speaker 1>Is it like completely It could be that I haven't

0:50:32.360 --> 0:50:34.759
<v Speaker 1>ever thought about like trying to make the business work.

0:50:35.120 --> 0:50:39.120
<v Speaker 1>But is that like completely unfeasible to have a golf

0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:41.720
<v Speaker 1>course that you could play in thirty minutes?

0:50:42.440 --> 0:50:42.839
<v Speaker 2>Like? Why?

0:50:43.120 --> 0:50:45.960
<v Speaker 1>I think, why is there not a storm of golf

0:50:46.200 --> 0:50:48.160
<v Speaker 1>that you could play in thirty minutes?

0:50:48.840 --> 0:50:51.600
<v Speaker 2>Believe me, Andy, I wish there were. I just think

0:50:51.680 --> 0:50:53.960
<v Speaker 2>it's it's yeah, I think it's the business part of it.

0:50:54.120 --> 0:50:56.640
<v Speaker 2>And I think that that's in general an issue with

0:50:56.800 --> 0:51:01.560
<v Speaker 2>short courses that are independent of resorts, you know, where

0:51:02.280 --> 0:51:05.640
<v Speaker 2>you just have a PAR three course that is on

0:51:05.800 --> 0:51:10.360
<v Speaker 2>its own and has to generate its popularity in and

0:51:10.480 --> 0:51:13.680
<v Speaker 2>of itself. Right, That's kind of what I meant when

0:51:13.719 --> 0:51:16.400
<v Speaker 2>I said that these par three courses are amenities at

0:51:16.440 --> 0:51:19.680
<v Speaker 2>these resorts. If these resorts didn't have their eighteen whole

0:51:19.760 --> 0:51:23.640
<v Speaker 2>regulation courses, then the PAR three courses wouldn't be nearly

0:51:23.719 --> 0:51:26.960
<v Speaker 2>as successful or nearly as easy to make work. But

0:51:27.040 --> 0:51:29.839
<v Speaker 2>if you have just a short course on its own,

0:51:30.280 --> 0:51:32.520
<v Speaker 2>it's just a little bit harder to make the business

0:51:32.600 --> 0:51:36.520
<v Speaker 2>work because people have proven over and over that they're

0:51:36.560 --> 0:51:39.879
<v Speaker 2>just more likely to go pay for a full round

0:51:40.120 --> 0:51:42.399
<v Speaker 2>at a par seventy two eighteen whole course.

0:51:43.120 --> 0:51:46.479
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, I do think a neighborhood four whole course course

0:51:46.520 --> 0:51:46.960
<v Speaker 1>could work.

0:51:47.680 --> 0:51:50.319
<v Speaker 2>It would be amazing. I mean I'd love it. I'd

0:51:50.400 --> 0:51:52.719
<v Speaker 2>love it. There are like no golf courses and in

0:51:52.840 --> 0:51:56.879
<v Speaker 2>my town essentially, but there are little pieces of land

0:51:56.960 --> 0:51:59.919
<v Speaker 2>with space for four golf holes. So trust me, would

0:52:00.120 --> 0:52:03.359
<v Speaker 2>love this to be the case. Related question here from Stephen.

0:52:03.040 --> 0:52:05.440
<v Speaker 1>Proctor, because you could just mow the greens out.

0:52:06.120 --> 0:52:09.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, I agree, I agree. Can I give you

0:52:09.040 --> 0:52:11.080
<v Speaker 2>this question from Stephen Proctor because I think it relates

0:52:11.120 --> 0:52:14.640
<v Speaker 2>to what we're talking about? He asks, what prospect do

0:52:14.680 --> 0:52:18.440
<v Speaker 2>you see of more short sporty courses of the par

0:52:18.600 --> 0:52:21.800
<v Speaker 2>sixty eight variety being built in the years ahead? So

0:52:21.880 --> 0:52:24.720
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to throw that into the mix too, because

0:52:24.719 --> 0:52:27.800
<v Speaker 2>I've heard you talk about these like second courses that

0:52:28.000 --> 0:52:32.040
<v Speaker 2>clubs in Ireland and Great Britain have, you know, like

0:52:32.160 --> 0:52:34.840
<v Speaker 2>at Royal County Down and Royal Port Rush kind of

0:52:34.880 --> 0:52:38.640
<v Speaker 2>the second rush at the club. Yeah, and it might

0:52:38.680 --> 0:52:42.040
<v Speaker 2>have been considered in an earlier age, the young people's

0:52:42.080 --> 0:52:44.360
<v Speaker 2>course or the ladies course. In fact, there are a

0:52:44.360 --> 0:52:48.560
<v Speaker 2>couple of you know, like formby Ladies Course in England.

0:52:49.520 --> 0:52:52.720
<v Speaker 2>I feel like these are such fascinating courses and so cool.

0:52:54.040 --> 0:52:57.560
<v Speaker 2>Such Valley is maybe a little bit in that mold

0:52:57.680 --> 0:53:00.480
<v Speaker 2>or kind of pushing toward that end of the spectrum

0:53:00.560 --> 0:53:03.120
<v Speaker 2>that the shorter, sportier course that can have a par

0:53:03.320 --> 0:53:06.759
<v Speaker 2>under seventy. Do you I mean, do you feel like

0:53:06.880 --> 0:53:10.880
<v Speaker 2>there's a possibility that these could become more popular and

0:53:11.000 --> 0:53:13.440
<v Speaker 2>more viable as as golf courses.

0:53:14.320 --> 0:53:16.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think that they should be just in general,

0:53:17.080 --> 0:53:20.680
<v Speaker 1>because the idea of par fives really existing is like

0:53:20.800 --> 0:53:27.680
<v Speaker 1>a farce in general, you know, like due part du

0:53:27.800 --> 0:53:31.759
<v Speaker 1>par fives actually exist at like higher levels of the game.

0:53:31.880 --> 0:53:35.920
<v Speaker 1>Sure they exist for the average player, but they always

0:53:36.120 --> 0:53:38.920
<v Speaker 1>long part that was a long part four back like

0:53:39.560 --> 0:53:42.680
<v Speaker 1>in the early nineteen hundred, it's a long part four.

0:53:42.880 --> 0:53:45.879
<v Speaker 1>Like almost every par five is reachable in two by

0:53:46.880 --> 0:53:50.600
<v Speaker 1>a scratch a better than scratch player. So like at

0:53:50.640 --> 0:53:53.479
<v Speaker 1>that point, I'm asking, like what is a par five?

0:53:54.600 --> 0:53:57.879
<v Speaker 1>Is it actually a part? Like the long part four

0:53:58.120 --> 0:54:00.600
<v Speaker 1>used to be a three shot hole for your fifteen handicap.

0:54:00.920 --> 0:54:03.480
<v Speaker 1>They just raise the par to five to make you

0:54:03.560 --> 0:54:04.920
<v Speaker 1>feel better, you know, and.

0:54:05.000 --> 0:54:07.960
<v Speaker 2>Can we keep working these holes into routings when they

0:54:08.040 --> 0:54:10.800
<v Speaker 2>have to be like seven hundred yards long from the

0:54:10.840 --> 0:54:14.120
<v Speaker 2>back seas in order to be legitimate par fives. You know,

0:54:14.239 --> 0:54:17.120
<v Speaker 2>can we keep finding space for these holes, it just

0:54:17.160 --> 0:54:18.640
<v Speaker 2>becomes harder and harder.

0:54:19.200 --> 0:54:22.799
<v Speaker 1>Exactly exactly. So, like to me, if you just take

0:54:22.880 --> 0:54:25.520
<v Speaker 1>out the fact that, like par fives don't really exist,

0:54:26.600 --> 0:54:30.800
<v Speaker 1>they're just they're just birdie holes for really good players,

0:54:31.320 --> 0:54:36.160
<v Speaker 1>and they're still hard for the average player. If you

0:54:36.239 --> 0:54:39.560
<v Speaker 1>take away that, like par fives for for a percentage

0:54:39.600 --> 0:54:44.239
<v Speaker 1>of golfers do not exist, then like what if, like

0:54:44.400 --> 0:54:48.160
<v Speaker 1>that makes the golf holes harder for good players. A

0:54:48.280 --> 0:54:53.239
<v Speaker 1>par sixty eight like is really hard because you're birdie opportunities.

0:54:53.320 --> 0:54:55.680
<v Speaker 1>You have to hit really good shots to make birdies.

0:54:55.760 --> 0:54:58.680
<v Speaker 1>Like it's really hard to make birdies when you even

0:54:58.719 --> 0:55:02.160
<v Speaker 1>when you have a dyard wedgend, it's not that hard

0:55:02.239 --> 0:55:04.920
<v Speaker 1>to make birdies when you hit driver threewood around the

0:55:05.000 --> 0:55:07.880
<v Speaker 1>green or driver long iron around the green and you

0:55:07.960 --> 0:55:10.600
<v Speaker 1>get up and down. You know. So when you think

0:55:10.640 --> 0:55:16.440
<v Speaker 1>about it, pars more courses should be have a lower

0:55:16.520 --> 0:55:18.640
<v Speaker 1>part at the highest level of the game. I think

0:55:18.719 --> 0:55:21.840
<v Speaker 1>what's interesting about parse sixty eight and sixty nine courses is.

0:55:21.920 --> 0:55:25.040
<v Speaker 1>I think it brings skill together in the way that

0:55:25.160 --> 0:55:28.239
<v Speaker 1>sedg Valley did. Like it's like a golf course that

0:55:28.360 --> 0:55:31.080
<v Speaker 1>makes good players think they have to hit really good shots.

0:55:31.640 --> 0:55:35.440
<v Speaker 1>But like when you make the hole shorter, all of

0:55:35.480 --> 0:55:38.400
<v Speaker 1>a sudden, more people when the golf course is shorter,

0:55:39.040 --> 0:55:42.480
<v Speaker 1>more types of players have the ability to hang around

0:55:42.920 --> 0:55:46.279
<v Speaker 1>like power players. It brings like an element of skill.

0:55:46.400 --> 0:55:48.960
<v Speaker 1>I'll never forget. I played a match once at Prairie

0:55:49.040 --> 0:55:53.320
<v Speaker 1>Dunes and the match was set up where if whichever

0:55:53.440 --> 0:55:57.279
<v Speaker 1>team won the last hole got to pick the t

0:55:58.400 --> 0:56:01.520
<v Speaker 1>and I was playing a younger guy and an older guy,

0:56:01.600 --> 0:56:04.320
<v Speaker 1>and the older guy was like a four handicap that clearly,

0:56:04.680 --> 0:56:09.200
<v Speaker 1>earlier in his life was like a plus two. And

0:56:09.480 --> 0:56:12.319
<v Speaker 1>when we won a hole, we moved all the way back,

0:56:12.520 --> 0:56:14.480
<v Speaker 1>and when they won a hole, they moved all the

0:56:14.520 --> 0:56:18.360
<v Speaker 1>way up. And it was terrifying because like, all of

0:56:18.360 --> 0:56:22.360
<v Speaker 1>a sudden, this guy, who like clearly was a great

0:56:22.440 --> 0:56:25.920
<v Speaker 1>wedge player and still was a great wedge player, was

0:56:25.960 --> 0:56:28.320
<v Speaker 1>playing all the way up and he was getting wedges

0:56:28.360 --> 0:56:31.040
<v Speaker 1>in his hand and like, sure, I could drive it

0:56:31.160 --> 0:56:33.279
<v Speaker 1>up by the green, but this guy was hitting like

0:56:33.400 --> 0:56:36.440
<v Speaker 1>eighty yr wedges and he was like a great wedge player.

0:56:36.719 --> 0:56:39.640
<v Speaker 1>So like to me, when you make the golf course shorter,

0:56:41.160 --> 0:56:44.080
<v Speaker 1>it all of a sudden introduces more varieties of skill

0:56:44.320 --> 0:56:48.960
<v Speaker 1>that can succeed. So, yes, there should be more sporty

0:56:49.000 --> 0:56:51.080
<v Speaker 1>golf courses, but I doubt that it's going to go

0:56:51.160 --> 0:56:51.640
<v Speaker 1>that direction.

0:56:52.560 --> 0:56:57.759
<v Speaker 2>Well, Michael Kaiser is one of the most influential developers

0:56:57.840 --> 0:57:01.839
<v Speaker 2>in golf right now, Michael Kaiser being Mike Kaiser's son, right,

0:57:01.920 --> 0:57:04.160
<v Speaker 2>and Michael and his brother Chris are behind a lot

0:57:04.239 --> 0:57:07.239
<v Speaker 2>of the kind of new dream golf developments. I know

0:57:07.360 --> 0:57:11.160
<v Speaker 2>Michael Kaiser to be obsessed with the idea of the short,

0:57:11.200 --> 0:57:13.960
<v Speaker 2>sporty golf course, and so if anybody can have an

0:57:14.000 --> 0:57:16.760
<v Speaker 2>influence on the general trends of the golf industry, it

0:57:16.760 --> 0:57:19.520
<v Speaker 2>would have to be him, right, And so I hope

0:57:19.560 --> 0:57:22.280
<v Speaker 2>that there is some kind of I don't know, trickle

0:57:22.360 --> 0:57:26.640
<v Speaker 2>down or trickle Sideway's effect from Sedge Valley and some

0:57:26.800 --> 0:57:29.560
<v Speaker 2>of these other par sixty something courses that I think

0:57:29.600 --> 0:57:30.800
<v Speaker 2>Michael Kaiser wants to build.

0:57:31.440 --> 0:57:34.520
<v Speaker 1>I think that their next course, the Commons up there,

0:57:34.840 --> 0:57:38.520
<v Speaker 1>is going to be pushing in that direction. Yeah, A

0:57:38.600 --> 0:57:41.720
<v Speaker 1>lot of people probably who visited saw the grassing of

0:57:41.840 --> 0:57:46.200
<v Speaker 1>it happening and coming to life this summer. But I think,

0:57:46.360 --> 0:57:48.680
<v Speaker 1>like I do. Like one of the things that excites

0:57:48.760 --> 0:57:53.320
<v Speaker 1>me about Michael is he he wants to build different stuff.

0:57:53.440 --> 0:57:56.200
<v Speaker 1>Like they're building a lot of new courses and it's

0:57:56.280 --> 0:57:58.480
<v Speaker 1>not just a we're just gonna roll out the ball

0:57:58.560 --> 0:58:00.600
<v Speaker 1>and do the same thing, Like he wants to have

0:58:01.280 --> 0:58:05.919
<v Speaker 1>ideas around how each course differentiates itself. Yeah.

0:58:06.080 --> 0:58:09.080
<v Speaker 2>Sand Valley's kind of a laboratory right now. It's such

0:58:09.120 --> 0:58:13.600
<v Speaker 2>an interesting site of golf course design at the moment.

0:58:13.880 --> 0:58:16.120
<v Speaker 2>You know, the Leado and such Valley coming out recently,

0:58:16.160 --> 0:58:19.440
<v Speaker 2>and this Commons course is coming soon. So yeah, if

0:58:19.480 --> 0:58:22.080
<v Speaker 2>you want to get some sense of where things could

0:58:22.120 --> 0:58:24.800
<v Speaker 2>go next, it wouldn't be a bad idea to look

0:58:24.840 --> 0:58:26.800
<v Speaker 2>at some of the things that they're doing at Sand

0:58:26.880 --> 0:58:29.680
<v Speaker 2>Valley because it's pretty smart. All right, do you have

0:58:30.080 --> 0:58:31.920
<v Speaker 2>another question for me or do you want me to

0:58:32.000 --> 0:58:33.000
<v Speaker 2>toss one at you?

0:58:33.840 --> 0:58:41.480
<v Speaker 1>I got one for you. Let's ask this is from

0:58:41.560 --> 0:58:44.760
<v Speaker 1>Stroke and Distance. What in progress or up and coming

0:58:45.000 --> 0:58:50.040
<v Speaker 1>projects do you feel will become game changers for the

0:58:50.880 --> 0:58:51.640
<v Speaker 1>for the industry.

0:58:54.080 --> 0:58:58.120
<v Speaker 2>Oh man, I saw this question and I was like,

0:58:58.920 --> 0:59:01.960
<v Speaker 2>this is going to be really hard answer because I

0:59:02.040 --> 0:59:06.360
<v Speaker 2>don't really know. You know some projects that are really

0:59:06.560 --> 0:59:10.440
<v Speaker 2>different that are coming down the pipeline right now that

0:59:10.720 --> 0:59:14.360
<v Speaker 2>maybe could end up being influential. I would look out

0:59:14.480 --> 0:59:16.840
<v Speaker 2>for what Tom Doak and his team are doing at

0:59:16.920 --> 0:59:21.000
<v Speaker 2>Sandglass now. As for the project being influential, that might

0:59:21.080 --> 0:59:24.080
<v Speaker 2>be hard because the course is not going to be

0:59:24.280 --> 0:59:26.440
<v Speaker 2>that available to that many people. It's going to be

0:59:26.520 --> 0:59:29.919
<v Speaker 2>a very private golf course. But the method that Tom

0:59:30.000 --> 0:59:35.760
<v Speaker 2>Doak's team is using there kind of marshaling light our

0:59:35.920 --> 0:59:39.760
<v Speaker 2>data to a different end than it was used in

0:59:39.880 --> 0:59:44.560
<v Speaker 2>the Lido project. Kind of using templates from other courses,

0:59:44.640 --> 0:59:47.560
<v Speaker 2>like scans from other courses is a starting point and

0:59:47.680 --> 0:59:52.760
<v Speaker 2>then massaging them into something slightly different is a really

0:59:52.920 --> 0:59:57.600
<v Speaker 2>interesting method and might end up being influential. Who knows.

0:59:57.760 --> 1:00:02.640
<v Speaker 2>As this kind of technology starts to enter golf design more,

1:00:03.280 --> 1:00:06.440
<v Speaker 2>maybe that will end up being influential. There are some

1:00:06.560 --> 1:00:09.360
<v Speaker 2>projects that I would hope would be influential. We're we're

1:00:09.960 --> 1:00:14.400
<v Speaker 2>seeing some public courses, some municipal courses get get some

1:00:14.640 --> 1:00:18.280
<v Speaker 2>needed work, like at Miami Lake's in Florida. We recently

1:00:18.360 --> 1:00:21.440
<v Speaker 2>had a feature on this and in Design Notebook that's

1:00:21.480 --> 1:00:26.120
<v Speaker 2>getting a renovation. Hooper Golf course, public golf course got

1:00:26.280 --> 1:00:29.680
<v Speaker 2>a got a nice restoration. This is a new Hampshire.

1:00:29.720 --> 1:00:34.200
<v Speaker 2>Wayne Styles course would be a cool one. So maybe

1:00:34.240 --> 1:00:37.280
<v Speaker 2>these will be influential, But I don't know. They're just

1:00:37.400 --> 1:00:38.320
<v Speaker 2>different at this moment.

1:00:38.680 --> 1:00:44.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm also Jay Blossie's redesigning Poppy Rip in liver in Livermore,

1:00:44.200 --> 1:00:46.959
<v Speaker 1>I'm kind of He's invited me out a bunch of times.

1:00:47.000 --> 1:00:49.280
<v Speaker 1>I feel bad. You know, when you when you can't

1:00:49.360 --> 1:00:52.040
<v Speaker 1>do something so many times that they stop inviting you.

1:00:52.280 --> 1:00:53.960
<v Speaker 1>I think I've reached that point with them.

1:00:55.160 --> 1:00:57.280
<v Speaker 2>I've like, yeah, yeah, when they when you when you

1:00:57.320 --> 1:00:59.560
<v Speaker 2>don't respond to enough emails, they start thinking maybe this

1:00:59.600 --> 1:01:00.320
<v Speaker 2>guy doesn't like me.

1:01:01.200 --> 1:01:03.720
<v Speaker 1>Or it's just like when you're when your friends ask

1:01:03.840 --> 1:01:05.920
<v Speaker 1>you to do something and you just get caught in

1:01:06.120 --> 1:01:08.880
<v Speaker 1>too many, too many situations where you just like you're

1:01:08.920 --> 1:01:12.080
<v Speaker 1>doing something else, they just stop inviting you. Is you

1:01:12.160 --> 1:01:14.720
<v Speaker 1>never want to fall in for that. I think Jay

1:01:14.800 --> 1:01:17.680
<v Speaker 1>has put me in that bucket. I'm no longer getting invited.

1:01:18.720 --> 1:01:21.600
<v Speaker 2>Official apology to Jay Blasi. He is doing exciting workout

1:01:21.640 --> 1:01:23.560
<v Speaker 2>there at Poppy Ridge. I'm looking forward to seeing it

1:01:23.720 --> 1:01:24.080
<v Speaker 2>very much.

1:01:24.720 --> 1:01:27.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think I think that's like the exciting thing

1:01:27.320 --> 1:01:31.360
<v Speaker 1>I if and I and and who knows what's going

1:01:31.440 --> 1:01:33.160
<v Speaker 1>to happen with the economy. It seems like people are

1:01:33.200 --> 1:01:38.200
<v Speaker 1>pretty bullish on it. If if, if the economy continues

1:01:38.240 --> 1:01:40.960
<v Speaker 1>to be good, like it's it's amazing, is that golf

1:01:41.040 --> 1:01:44.360
<v Speaker 1>will be in an amazing place if the you know,

1:01:44.440 --> 1:01:48.840
<v Speaker 1>I think people have had this like doomsday feeling about

1:01:49.000 --> 1:01:51.760
<v Speaker 1>the industry and are we going to go into bubble?

1:01:52.280 --> 1:01:55.280
<v Speaker 1>But if it, you know, if the economy is strong,

1:01:55.800 --> 1:01:58.040
<v Speaker 1>I mean, golf is going to continue to flourish. Like

1:01:58.400 --> 1:02:01.160
<v Speaker 1>I think, like I've had this realization over the last

1:02:01.240 --> 1:02:03.320
<v Speaker 1>like year or two, is just like how much great

1:02:03.480 --> 1:02:05.720
<v Speaker 1>work is being done. And I think like a lot

1:02:05.800 --> 1:02:08.920
<v Speaker 1>of this goes with like the Interlock and and Medina stuff.

1:02:09.560 --> 1:02:12.720
<v Speaker 1>It's just like it's amazing, how much good And then

1:02:12.920 --> 1:02:15.280
<v Speaker 1>I mean you the new courses that are being built,

1:02:15.320 --> 1:02:18.440
<v Speaker 1>Like Broomsedge is a super super cool golf course, the

1:02:18.520 --> 1:02:22.120
<v Speaker 1>new Broomsedge old Barnwell Tree Farm, Like I mean, like

1:02:22.280 --> 1:02:25.360
<v Speaker 1>those three golf courses all in like a pretty small

1:02:25.960 --> 1:02:30.480
<v Speaker 1>vicinity are awesome golf courses. Like if you had you know,

1:02:30.560 --> 1:02:33.280
<v Speaker 1>we're leaving a time where if like one of those

1:02:33.360 --> 1:02:36.240
<v Speaker 1>got built in ten years you'd be happy. And it's like, oh,

1:02:36.320 --> 1:02:39.960
<v Speaker 1>here's like three awesome golf courses in in the you know,

1:02:40.560 --> 1:02:43.600
<v Speaker 1>uh in kind of the sandhills of South Carolina that

1:02:43.640 --> 1:02:45.920
<v Speaker 1>get built in a matter of three years.

1:02:46.120 --> 1:02:51.160
<v Speaker 2>You know, Well, let me let me raise a countervailing

1:02:51.240 --> 1:02:54.720
<v Speaker 2>opinion that I've seen out there in response to all

1:02:54.800 --> 1:02:57.560
<v Speaker 2>this work that we've seen recently. It seems like a

1:02:57.640 --> 1:03:00.560
<v Speaker 2>lot of the questions that we got to this call

1:03:00.680 --> 1:03:04.880
<v Speaker 2>for questions and past recent ones have had as a

1:03:04.960 --> 1:03:08.960
<v Speaker 2>premise that a lot of the golf architecture we've seen

1:03:09.080 --> 1:03:16.040
<v Speaker 2>recently has been similar, right, has had similarities to each other.

1:03:16.680 --> 1:03:18.800
<v Speaker 2>That we're seeing too much of the same kind of work,

1:03:19.200 --> 1:03:22.800
<v Speaker 2>too much of the Corn Crunshaw, Tom Doak Gilhant's style,

1:03:23.120 --> 1:03:25.400
<v Speaker 2>and people are just repeating the same things over and

1:03:25.520 --> 1:03:27.920
<v Speaker 2>over again, and when are we going to get something different?

1:03:27.920 --> 1:03:29.840
<v Speaker 2>A lot of the questions are like, what's going to

1:03:29.920 --> 1:03:32.960
<v Speaker 2>be different, what's going to be the new thing that

1:03:33.760 --> 1:03:37.240
<v Speaker 2>just you know, kind of defies all of the current trends,

1:03:37.680 --> 1:03:39.560
<v Speaker 2>And what would be your response to that?

1:03:39.760 --> 1:03:43.080
<v Speaker 1>General feeling people are looking way too much at the

1:03:43.160 --> 1:03:48.800
<v Speaker 1>bunkers and not enough at the property because like what

1:03:49.040 --> 1:03:53.360
<v Speaker 1>this Eraro design is doing is it's valuing the the

1:03:54.600 --> 1:03:58.800
<v Speaker 1>individual nature of a piece of property and the reality

1:03:58.920 --> 1:04:02.840
<v Speaker 1>that if you rout holes along a property, they're going

1:04:02.920 --> 1:04:05.920
<v Speaker 1>to be unique because it's going to be its own property.

1:04:06.400 --> 1:04:09.640
<v Speaker 1>Like a great example is the ninth hole at Broomsedge.

1:04:09.800 --> 1:04:13.280
<v Speaker 1>Is this par five and it's a short par five,

1:04:14.080 --> 1:04:17.080
<v Speaker 1>pretty big fair away, and I played. I played it

1:04:17.200 --> 1:04:19.680
<v Speaker 1>one time and I hit an iron and I thought

1:04:19.760 --> 1:04:22.840
<v Speaker 1>I hit it to like two feet and it just

1:04:23.200 --> 1:04:26.040
<v Speaker 1>rocketed off the back. And I got up there and

1:04:26.200 --> 1:04:29.000
<v Speaker 1>I was like, oh my god, this green runs away

1:04:29.520 --> 1:04:32.160
<v Speaker 1>like crazy, and it's like the whole fall the property

1:04:32.240 --> 1:04:35.960
<v Speaker 1>goes that way. And it's like, sure, maybe the bunker

1:04:36.040 --> 1:04:40.479
<v Speaker 1>style might look similar to another course and the green

1:04:40.640 --> 1:04:44.640
<v Speaker 1>the way the greens are shaped, but literally, you know,

1:04:44.920 --> 1:04:48.760
<v Speaker 1>the the way that the ball just runs away. I like,

1:04:49.080 --> 1:04:51.440
<v Speaker 1>I've been thinking about that shot since I hit it,

1:04:51.880 --> 1:04:53.720
<v Speaker 1>and it's like I can't wait to play it again

1:04:54.160 --> 1:04:56.000
<v Speaker 1>because I'm going to have to I'm going to have

1:04:56.080 --> 1:04:58.200
<v Speaker 1>to land this shot. Like do I land it ten

1:04:58.280 --> 1:05:01.280
<v Speaker 1>yards short? I landed this one five yards short? Do

1:05:01.440 --> 1:05:03.880
<v Speaker 1>I land at ten yard short? Do I land at fifteen?

1:05:03.960 --> 1:05:06.440
<v Speaker 1>Do I land at twenty? Like And it is just

1:05:06.640 --> 1:05:09.160
<v Speaker 1>all with the fall of the property. So I think,

1:05:09.280 --> 1:05:12.560
<v Speaker 1>like people need to look at the property because that's

1:05:12.640 --> 1:05:15.320
<v Speaker 1>what's going to Like a lot of these golf courses,

1:05:15.680 --> 1:05:18.720
<v Speaker 1>if you just had the greens, no bunkers, and the property,

1:05:19.320 --> 1:05:23.000
<v Speaker 1>it'd be fascinating golf to play, and then people would

1:05:23.000 --> 1:05:24.800
<v Speaker 1>be like, Wow, that was a lot different than this,

1:05:25.280 --> 1:05:30.760
<v Speaker 1>Like a broom, sedges and old barnwell and tree farms

1:05:30.840 --> 1:05:34.640
<v Speaker 1>properties are wildly different. If you took away all the bunkers,

1:05:35.440 --> 1:05:37.840
<v Speaker 1>people would think they were way different golf courses. But

1:05:38.000 --> 1:05:40.800
<v Speaker 1>they latch onto like the bunkers kind of look the same,

1:05:41.080 --> 1:05:42.240
<v Speaker 1>so it all looks the same.

1:05:44.280 --> 1:05:47.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I agree, And I think that the rise of

1:05:48.560 --> 1:05:51.840
<v Speaker 2>golf photography and its wide distribution has definitely had an

1:05:51.880 --> 1:05:54.560
<v Speaker 2>influence on this, because what do you key in on

1:05:55.120 --> 1:05:58.360
<v Speaker 2>when you're looking at a golf photograph. What a photographer's key.

1:05:58.320 --> 1:05:59.840
<v Speaker 1>In on for that matter, bunkers.

1:06:00.200 --> 1:06:04.360
<v Speaker 2>It's the bunkers. Yeah, that's the thing that shows up

1:06:04.600 --> 1:06:07.880
<v Speaker 2>the best, that color contrast between the white or tan

1:06:08.080 --> 1:06:12.360
<v Speaker 2>sand and the green turf around it. That's always going

1:06:12.440 --> 1:06:16.040
<v Speaker 2>to be the thing that the photography focuses on, and

1:06:16.120 --> 1:06:20.200
<v Speaker 2>our photography focuses on, Like everybody does this, But yeah,

1:06:20.240 --> 1:06:22.440
<v Speaker 2>it's useful to keep in mind that the experience of

1:06:22.520 --> 1:06:25.240
<v Speaker 2>these courses on the ground is always very different. This

1:06:25.400 --> 1:06:29.360
<v Speaker 2>is always my response to people who ask whether, say

1:06:29.400 --> 1:06:32.160
<v Speaker 2>Corey Crenshaw are doing the same thing over and over again.

1:06:32.400 --> 1:06:34.080
<v Speaker 2>It's like, do they have a style, Yes, they have

1:06:34.160 --> 1:06:37.360
<v Speaker 2>a style, but that style is to honor the particular

1:06:37.400 --> 1:06:39.680
<v Speaker 2>piece of land. And so if you go to these

1:06:39.920 --> 1:06:43.440
<v Speaker 2>particular pieces of land and experience them, then the courses

1:06:43.480 --> 1:06:47.480
<v Speaker 2>become really distinct in your mind. If you look at photographs,

1:06:47.640 --> 1:06:51.520
<v Speaker 2>then they become hard to differentiate from each other. At

1:06:51.560 --> 1:06:56.680
<v Speaker 2>the same time, I will say that that story about

1:06:56.720 --> 1:07:02.080
<v Speaker 2>Pete Die building Harbor Town, going across the island and

1:07:02.200 --> 1:07:05.200
<v Speaker 2>seeing what Robert Trent Jones was doing and just saying

1:07:05.240 --> 1:07:07.600
<v Speaker 2>to himself, I'm going to do the opposite of that.

1:07:08.440 --> 1:07:10.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm just going to do something that is in every

1:07:10.360 --> 1:07:14.280
<v Speaker 2>way different from what Jones is doing on the other

1:07:14.320 --> 1:07:18.400
<v Speaker 2>side of this island. That's an interesting impulse that contrarianism.

1:07:18.760 --> 1:07:20.560
<v Speaker 2>And Tom Doak has some of this about him too.

1:07:20.600 --> 1:07:22.760
<v Speaker 2>He wants to he wants to keep pushing, he wants

1:07:22.840 --> 1:07:25.160
<v Speaker 2>to do things that are different from what other people

1:07:25.160 --> 1:07:30.200
<v Speaker 2>are doing. But maybe some of that would be useful

1:07:30.720 --> 1:07:33.200
<v Speaker 2>to current golf architecture where maybe there's just somebody out

1:07:33.240 --> 1:07:37.320
<v Speaker 2>there who's a really strong, smart architect just says I'm

1:07:37.360 --> 1:07:39.960
<v Speaker 2>just going to try to do everything the opposite to

1:07:40.560 --> 1:07:43.320
<v Speaker 2>what I'm seeing, you know, that would be that would

1:07:43.360 --> 1:07:46.160
<v Speaker 2>be interesting to see, and we we might be missing

1:07:46.240 --> 1:07:48.439
<v Speaker 2>that a little bit right now with this this newer

1:07:48.520 --> 1:07:51.480
<v Speaker 2>generation of architects who are pushing in different directions. I

1:07:51.520 --> 1:07:54.760
<v Speaker 2>think Kyle Franz and Schneider and Conan are all doing

1:07:55.000 --> 1:07:55.320
<v Speaker 2>kind of.

1:07:55.840 --> 1:08:00.880
<v Speaker 1>Interesting Tyler ray or different or what draft different, you know,

1:08:01.160 --> 1:08:02.400
<v Speaker 1>and I think it will be exciting.

1:08:02.600 --> 1:08:05.960
<v Speaker 2>We need to appreciate. Yeah, but but there's but there's

1:08:06.000 --> 1:08:09.560
<v Speaker 2>not really anybody who's really putting themselves down as the

1:08:09.640 --> 1:08:13.080
<v Speaker 2>opposite of everything, and maybe that's just maybe that's the thing,

1:08:15.280 --> 1:08:15.920
<v Speaker 2>right exactly.

1:08:16.200 --> 1:08:16.360
<v Speaker 1>Well.

1:08:16.439 --> 1:08:19.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and also people should keep in mind Nicholas Designs

1:08:19.960 --> 1:08:22.720
<v Speaker 2>still building a lot of golf courses, Greg Norman still

1:08:22.720 --> 1:08:26.479
<v Speaker 2>building a lot of golf courses. Fasio is still Discovery

1:08:26.560 --> 1:08:30.640
<v Speaker 2>Land's guy. I mean, all of these architects haven't disappeared, right,

1:08:30.720 --> 1:08:33.360
<v Speaker 2>They're just not not dominant anymore.

1:08:34.160 --> 1:08:35.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I would agree with that.

1:08:36.600 --> 1:08:39.920
<v Speaker 2>Okay, do we want to do any other questions is there.

1:08:41.560 --> 1:08:45.280
<v Speaker 1>I say we break, we do part two and we

1:08:45.320 --> 1:08:46.479
<v Speaker 1>will do police Part two.

1:08:46.720 --> 1:08:50.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, that sounds like a good plan. Does that

1:08:50.160 --> 1:08:52.080
<v Speaker 2>sound like a good plan, PJ give me a thumbs up.

1:08:53.360 --> 1:08:55.400
<v Speaker 2>All right, thanks for coming on the pod, Andy, I'll

1:08:55.400 --> 1:09:08.719
<v Speaker 2>talk to you later. This episode of the Friday Golf

1:09:08.840 --> 1:09:14.559
<v Speaker 2>Podcast was produced by PJ Clark. Thank you, PJ. All Right,

1:09:14.640 --> 1:09:18.560
<v Speaker 2>So Black Friday is coming up and Friday Golf is

1:09:18.720 --> 1:09:22.160
<v Speaker 2>getting involved in that. So the biggest sale of the

1:09:22.240 --> 1:09:27.800
<v Speaker 2>year begins for Club TFE members very soon. Shop today

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<v Speaker 2>and use your regular code at checkout to receive twenty

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<v Speaker 2>five percent off. Take advantage and just knock out your

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<v Speaker 2>You don't want to leave things to the last minute.

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<v Speaker 2>We're also introducing a bonus perk of our sale this year,

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<v Speaker 2>the Friday Golf Event Sweepstakes. We're calling it. Every purchase

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<v Speaker 2>of two hundred and fifty dollars or more from November

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<v Speaker 2>nineteenth through December third will be entered into a raffle

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<v Speaker 2>for free entry into one of our twenty twenty five events.

1:09:58.640 --> 1:10:02.960
<v Speaker 2>Eligible events include Colorado Golf Club, Marine Country Club, Essex

1:10:03.000 --> 1:10:08.040
<v Speaker 2>County country Club, Lawsonia, Skokie, Broomsedge and Old Barnwell. See

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<v Speaker 2>the Pro Shop for more details on our best giveaway ever.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, so keep in mind we have Black Friday

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<v Speaker 2>coming up. We have lots of great deals check all

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<v Speaker 2>of that out. Thank you for listening, and we'll be

1:10:19.000 --> 1:10:21.599
<v Speaker 2>back again soon with another episode