Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, this is Gilbert. In the coming weeks, we're
Speaker 1: bringing you something special, something I think Bone Value listeners
Speaker 1: will really want to hear. Over the last few years,
Speaker 1: I've met so many of you at Crime Con live
Speaker 1: events and online, and I've been struck by your curiosity
Speaker 1: about how we made the podcast and what was happening
Speaker 1: behind the scenes of our investigation. One of the most
Speaker 1: flattering things I hear from our most loyal listeners is
Speaker 1: that you want more, you want updates, and you want
Speaker 1: to hear from the people in this story you've come
Speaker 1: to care so much about.
Speaker 2: We got you.
Speaker 1: As many of you know, I decided to write a
Speaker 1: book about the Leo Schofield case. It's called Bone Valley,
Speaker 1: A true story of injustice and redemption in the heart
Speaker 1: of Florida, and it's now out in the world with
Speaker 1: some terrific early reviews. When a lot of you first
Speaker 1: heard that I was writing the book, the response was,
Speaker 1: you have to read the audiobook. So I did, and
Speaker 1: as a special thank you to Bone Valley listeners, we're
Speaker 1: releasing exclusive excerpts from the audiobook, moments that take you
Speaker 1: behind the scenes of our investigation into Michelle Schofield's murder
Speaker 1: scenes that didn't make it into the podcast, and even
Speaker 1: some new voices. In a way, this book takes you
Speaker 1: behind the crime scene tape, but my goal was still
Speaker 1: to give readers the same narrative, tension and intimacy that
Speaker 1: made the podcast what it is. In our first installment
Speaker 1: of Bone Valley, from the Mic to the Page, we're
Speaker 1: starting with a bit of a twist. After the audiobook's epilogue,
Speaker 1: Leo Schofield turns the tables and interviews me. To no
Speaker 1: one's surprise, Leo was very comfortable in this role, as
Speaker 1: I think you'll be able to tell. Here are the
Speaker 1: first sixteen minutes from that hour long conversation, which I
Speaker 1: hope you'll enjoy as much as I did.
Speaker 3: Hi, listeners, it's Gilbert King. Thank you for listening to
Speaker 3: the Bone Valley audiobook Today. I'm honored to be joined
Speaker 3: in the studio by Leo Schofield, the man whose story
Speaker 3: you've just heard.
Speaker 4: Hi. I'm Leo Schofield, and I'm excited to be here
Speaker 4: with Gilbert. While Gilbert has asked me so many questions
Speaker 4: over the years, today I have the opportunity to ask
Speaker 4: him some of my own questions.
Speaker 2: So here we are Gilbert. Oh boy, I don't like
Speaker 2: this already.
Speaker 4: We've been together since I was thinking about this last
Speaker 4: night twenty eighteen, correct.
Speaker 2: Yeah, twenty eighteen, the first time. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Did you ever envision this moment here?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Shit, that's starting early.
Speaker 1: No, you know, I just I remember so many times showing.
Speaker 3: Up at Harty and just sitting across for you and
Speaker 3: just feeling the shame that you would come in your
Speaker 3: blues and be escorted by a guard. And at the
Speaker 3: end of this conversation, we get to walk out to
Speaker 3: the parking lot and go off on our lives and
Speaker 3: you go back in your cell.
Speaker 2: And I think the thing that really.
Speaker 3: Got to me the most was that I knew from
Speaker 3: talking to Chrissy that we're bringing up the most horrific
Speaker 3: moments of your life. And we go and walk out
Speaker 3: into the car and drive home and have a meal,
Speaker 3: and you go back into your cell and have to
Speaker 3: live with the aftermath of this trauma that you've just recounted.
Speaker 3: And I always felt bad about that, and I don't
Speaker 3: how did you deal with that?
Speaker 4: Yeah? You know, And I appreciate you saying that, because
Speaker 4: I remember those moments myself and for me from my end,
Speaker 4: I would get back to the cell, and while it
Speaker 4: was difficult to relive those moments and keep going over it,
Speaker 4: I had a great hope that something would be different
Speaker 4: in the telling of it this time because it was you,
Speaker 4: you know, I mean, you're Gilbert King, I mean really,
Speaker 4: and that hope is what helped me get through another day,
Speaker 4: another week, another year, you know. And when we started
Speaker 4: this in twenty eighteen, when you came on board, we
Speaker 4: were talking about a book.
Speaker 2: You remember that, Yeah, yeah, yeah, you didn't know what
Speaker 2: a podcast was.
Speaker 4: And then you come with the podcast and do you
Speaker 4: remember do you remember telling me we were going to
Speaker 4: do the podcast?
Speaker 2: I kind of do, Well, what did you say the reasons?
Speaker 2: What is a podcast?
Speaker 4: And then when you described it to me, I said
Speaker 4: that sounds like AM radio.
Speaker 2: I had no reference for it.
Speaker 4: You know, it's thirty six years while at that time
Speaker 4: thirty two thirty one years in prison, and had no
Speaker 4: reference for a podcast, never experienced it, and yet Bone
Speaker 4: Valley turned into the most incredible experiences of my life
Speaker 4: in getting to know you. You know some of my favorite books.
Speaker 4: You know, you write in a genre that I really enjoy. Anyway,
Speaker 4: so you're the author of Devil in the Grove. You
Speaker 4: got a Politzer Prize for that. Beneath the Ruthless Sun.
Speaker 4: I've read both of those, and one that wasn't as
Speaker 4: well known that was really an emotional book for me
Speaker 4: was The Execution of Willie Francis. Yeah, and so I
Speaker 4: kind of got a feel for what you write about.
Speaker 4: And so I'm just wondering, because this is all dealing
Speaker 4: with civil rights stuff, wrongful convictions, wrongful deaths in a
Speaker 4: system of justice, and I'm wondering what it is about
Speaker 4: that subject that was so important to you as a person.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think it's just one of these
Speaker 3: things where from a very early age, I remember being
Speaker 3: drawn to books like count A Monte Cristo, you know,
Speaker 3: like justices, wrongfully accused people. I just felt like the
Speaker 3: passion of the narrators. Papion was another book I remember
Speaker 3: reading as a young person, and wrongfully convicted, sentenced to
Speaker 3: Devil's Island, and this it is kind of an adventure
Speaker 3: story in some respect, but at the heart of these
Speaker 3: stories it's about a man losing his freedom, and for
Speaker 3: some reason that just really resonated with me, even at
Speaker 3: an early age, I grew up at a time well
Speaker 3: we're kind of close in age, but watching Roots on
Speaker 3: television and just realizing like, this is part of American history,
Speaker 3: and like I didn't know anything about this, and just
Speaker 3: being drawn by those injustices. This always affected my sense
Speaker 3: of the stories I was drawn to, and so most
Speaker 3: of the work I was doing was mostly set in
Speaker 3: the pre civil rights movements, the forties and the fifties.
Speaker 3: So you know, when Judge Scott Cupp came to me
Speaker 3: and gave me that card, I was not thinking about,
Speaker 3: let me try and do something in the current day.
Speaker 3: I really felt like the past was where I wanted
Speaker 3: to stay. And you know, he told me about it.
Speaker 3: I was intry because he's a judge and he's saying
Speaker 3: there's an innocent man out there who was still in prison,
Speaker 3: and you know, it's hard to just say no, I
Speaker 3: won't look into it. I think I mentioned this in
Speaker 3: the book that you know, I kind of wanted to
Speaker 3: get him off the phone. But the easy way to
Speaker 3: do it was say, all right, I'll look at the transcript,
Speaker 3: and you know that started the whole process for me.
Speaker 3: I started reading, I'm like, how is this stuff happening now?
Speaker 3: I knew it happened in the forties and fifties, but
Speaker 3: how is this stuff i'm reading about happening now? And
Speaker 3: that's when I've sort of said, you know, I'm going
Speaker 3: to look into this more. I said to Judge cub
Speaker 3: what's what's the next step? And I remember he said,
Speaker 3: I think it's time you meet Leo. And he kind
Speaker 3: of said it to me in a way like you're
Speaker 3: in for something, You're in for something. Where do you
Speaker 3: meet this guy? And I didn't believe him to be
Speaker 3: honest with you. I'm always very skeptical, but that was
Speaker 3: the way I experienced it. As soon as we met,
Speaker 3: and as soon as I started hearing your story and
Speaker 3: sitting across from you, it affected me in a way
Speaker 3: that I really was drawn. I remember there was something
Speaker 3: you said, so this is the story you remember.
Speaker 2: For those words?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not going to change. I'm going to talk
Speaker 4: about that in a minute because I want I want
Speaker 4: to talk about our relationship.
Speaker 2: But U and thank you for that.
Speaker 4: Really, So would you say what would you say is
Speaker 4: different about this book in comparison to the others that
Speaker 4: you have written.
Speaker 3: There's a sense of urgency that comes to a story
Speaker 3: when the people you're dealing with are sitting across from
Speaker 3: you and you can see the pain and you can
Speaker 3: feel the injustice. It's one thing going through the documents
Speaker 3: and reading trial transcripts and appellate records and newspaper accounts
Speaker 3: from seventy years ago, and you know, as painful as
Speaker 3: those are, but there's something else entirely sitting across from
Speaker 3: a man who is in his prison blues and is
Speaker 3: going to go right back into his cell when you're done,
Speaker 3: and recognizing that you're reading about an injustice and this
Speaker 3: man's life is still affected by that, it just hits
Speaker 3: you in a very different way. The immediate see of it,
Speaker 3: the urge to sort of say and I know I
Speaker 3: said this to you later on in the process, after
Speaker 3: I fully investigated your story, I said, I don't know
Speaker 3: what this is going to do for you, how it's
Speaker 3: going to change your case or your life, but I
Speaker 3: can promise you this, We.
Speaker 2: Are going to change the narrative.
Speaker 3: And I believe that that is the one thing I
Speaker 3: could promise you that the narrative is going to be different,
Speaker 3: because everything I looked into is wrong and I could
Speaker 3: feel that, and I knew I could only make you
Speaker 3: that promise that I can. I'm going to change the
Speaker 3: official story here. I don't know if it's going to
Speaker 3: help you. Frankly, I didn't think. I didn't think you'd
Speaker 3: ever get out.
Speaker 4: I'll just be honest with Well, obviously it did help,
Speaker 4: the narrative changing and getting across to so many people,
Speaker 4: including people who have the ability to make a difference
Speaker 4: in my life. I don't think I would be here
Speaker 4: without just the way you told the narrative. You know,
Speaker 4: and while you're saying that, I'm thinking about this, this
Speaker 4: is pretty emotional for me too. You had some really
Speaker 4: good help along the way. And a woman you mentioned
Speaker 4: in the book who is a dear friend to both
Speaker 4: of us now. Her name was Kelsey Decker, and she
Speaker 4: did a lot and this thing, and I know the
Speaker 4: book explains a lot of what she does. I want
Speaker 4: to ask you about what her emotional response was to this.
Speaker 4: Going further, I know she had a big response in it.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, she started out as a researcher, and
Speaker 3: so she was ahead of me because I was working
Speaker 3: on other projects. And I remember her going through the transcript,
Speaker 3: going through the appellate records and just the intensity of
Speaker 3: somebody young who's just drawn to this story and just saying,
Speaker 3: you have to see this, Look at what they did,
Speaker 3: Look at what the state did, Look what the police
Speaker 3: did here, Like I could feel her energy and her
Speaker 3: commitment to this, and it kind of drove me a
Speaker 3: little bit, because someone who's seen a lot more and
Speaker 3: been studying these kind of cases for decades, just to
Speaker 3: see how young people are really affected by injustice.
Speaker 2: It's kind of contagious. And it affected me.
Speaker 3: In a way, like I was feeding off that she
Speaker 3: was just overwhelmed by the injustice of this, and it
Speaker 3: reminded me of how I felt when I was younger
Speaker 3: when I would read these stories, and I could just
Speaker 3: see how much time she was putting into the research
Speaker 3: and just pointing these things out to me and wanting
Speaker 3: to talk about them, and it was really contagious, and
Speaker 3: it really helped my enthusiasm because having someone to just
Speaker 3: share this with and just to be able to talk
Speaker 3: to constantly and work through all these different things that
Speaker 3: we were learning about your case that.
Speaker 2: Weren't brought out in trial, that weren't brought up, and
Speaker 2: here we were seeing it.
Speaker 3: It was a tremendous asset to be able to work
Speaker 3: with someone who was as committed as I felt I was.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, and she was definitely that because I remember
Speaker 4: being interviewed by her how special those moments was for
Speaker 4: both of us, and specifically because she wasn't.
Speaker 2: Much older than Michelle.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, and I felt her connection to that,
Speaker 4: and I think it was very well covered in one
Speaker 4: of the Bone Valley episodes in one of the most
Speaker 4: emotional times of me, because it was hard for me
Speaker 4: to listen to Bone Valley and here in Elsie after
Speaker 4: you guys had been in at the pot Commie Sheriff's
Speaker 4: office reviewing evidence and you got in the car and
Speaker 4: she breaks down crying and was relating to Michelle and
Speaker 4: the evidence and everything, and it was just one of
Speaker 4: the most it's choking me up now even thinking about it.
Speaker 4: I mean, and I had such a deep and have
Speaker 4: such a deep connection with Kelsey because of that, and
Speaker 4: she brings so much validation to the innocence claim.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, and everything about that
Speaker 3: was real and raw, and we really didn't know what
Speaker 3: we were doing while we were investigating. We just kept
Speaker 3: the microphone on all the time. And those are just
Speaker 3: things that came out, and we just decided we had
Speaker 3: to just keep recording and just we'll see what we
Speaker 3: get from this, because we don't really didn't know what
Speaker 3: we're doing outside of the interviews. But I do remember
Speaker 3: that moment because at this point, Michelle was always portrayed
Speaker 3: as the victim, and she was a nameless victim. And
Speaker 3: by this point we'd met you, we'd met Michelle's brother,
Speaker 3: and she became a living, breathing person in our story,
Speaker 3: and you sort of want to honor that in a
Speaker 3: way that reflects a human being and not just a
Speaker 3: trope or a character who's no longer alive. You know,
Speaker 3: she lost her life at eighteen. What was that life like?
Speaker 3: And I think we felt a real responsibility to portray
Speaker 3: that in an honest way. And I think one of
Speaker 3: the most honest ways is just looking at the evidence
Speaker 3: and seeing all the evidence of they're Michelle's last moments
Speaker 3: on Earth, and it's starting to fill in a story.
Speaker 3: And then you see these photographs, and you know the
Speaker 3: photographs just I know you've seen them.
Speaker 2: They're just.
Speaker 3: If you don't know the person or you don't know
Speaker 3: anything about their lives.
Speaker 2: There's a numbness to it.
Speaker 3: But when it's somebody you've been talking to family members,
Speaker 3: people who loved her, it hits you in a hard way.
Speaker 3: I felt it too, Kelsey felt it in a much
Speaker 3: more raw way.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, yeah, and I definitely appreciated that, and she is
Speaker 4: forever endeared to my heart because of it. Let's talk
Speaker 4: about the book a little bit, if you don't mind,
Speaker 4: And one of the questions I don't think listeners would
Speaker 4: want to ask. We've had a lot of downloads on
Speaker 4: the Bone Valley podcast. I think nine episodes and then
Speaker 4: the bonus episodes that went with it, right covering you,
Speaker 4: covering release from prison, Yeah, right through, and it covers
Speaker 4: a lot of the journey from Michelle's Marta forward to
Speaker 4: that release.
Speaker 2: Why a book now?
Speaker 3: Originally when we first thought about podcasts, I thought it
Speaker 3: made sense.
Speaker 2: You're here.
Speaker 3: You were such a dynamic storyteller, your voice it was
Speaker 3: just something I wasn't used to, and I just I
Speaker 3: remember thinking people need to hear Leo speaking about his
Speaker 3: case and his conviction and hopes for release and exoneration.
Speaker 3: It was powerful just being inside of prison with you
Speaker 3: for must have been a dozen times, but I felt
Speaker 3: like there was so much that we couldn't really cover
Speaker 3: once I started spending years on this. There's parts, especially
Speaker 3: like in the trial, we don't have audio for that stuff.
Speaker 3: And there's some really dramatic scenes that take place in
Speaker 3: the trial that I felt like in the podcast, I
Speaker 3: just have to be reading transcript and it didn't feel
Speaker 3: as powerful as a recreating the scene in a book.
Speaker 3: I felt like I wasn't done with it, and there
Speaker 3: was so much more that I wanted to add to it,
Speaker 3: so much more of the research that I couldn't really
Speaker 3: use in the podcast, but it was there. It was
Speaker 3: what I'm used to was writing books, and now I
Speaker 3: have this in front of me, I have these voices
Speaker 3: and these stories. I just felt like there was so
Speaker 3: much more to tell, and that's what I really wanted.
Speaker 2: I think with listeners they're going to get a lot
Speaker 2: of new material, but I.
Speaker 3: Wanted people that read books, who don't listen to podcasts,
Speaker 3: I want them to experience this narrative. And already it's
Speaker 3: kind of interesting to see like early copies going out
Speaker 3: there and people who have never heard the podcast and
Speaker 3: reading this and hearing their reaction to your story.
Speaker 2: I knew it was there I.
Speaker 3: Kind of resisted a book for a while, but eventually
Speaker 3: I was like, no, this has to be.
Speaker 2: There's so much more here, so much more we couldn't cover.
Speaker 3: And also like I just have sensibilities as someone who
Speaker 3: writes narrative nonfiction like this feels like my natural story.
Speaker 2: Podcasting never feels natural to me.
Speaker 3: I hate my voice. I really don't like it. Others
Speaker 3: seem to not mind it, but I just really wanted
Speaker 3: to write the book. So the audiobook is a really
Speaker 3: good compromise.
Speaker 2: Because I get to read it. That's great.
Speaker 4: Well, just so you know, I've heard a lot of
Speaker 4: people comment on your voice on the podcast, and that's
Speaker 4: one of the sales for it.
Speaker 2: Puts in the sea.
Speaker 4: They say, no, I didn't hear that. You might have
Speaker 4: heard other things the book does. And I was privileged
Speaker 4: to be able to read an early copy of it
Speaker 4: and the emotional response that I had to it, both
Speaker 4: in giggling in the places where you you know, were
Speaker 4: critiqueing something I wore a setter or something like that.
Speaker 4: It was very funny. I'd laugh and my wife would say,
Speaker 4: what now, what did you I need it too?
Speaker 3: I wondered, if I know there's one part in the
Speaker 3: book where I describe you, and this comes from you, Leo,
Speaker 3: because you talk about having this mismatched suit that you're borrowing,
Speaker 3: like a jacket from your dad, pants from Dave the
Speaker 3: bass player, none of them fit because you don't own
Speaker 3: a suit. And now you've got this haircut that they've
Speaker 3: given you in prison. And I think you remember saying something,
Speaker 3: it's not like something you get it supercuts right, and
Speaker 3: just feeling like a clown, sort of showing up in
Speaker 3: front of a jury poping life savers, not realizing your
Speaker 3: life is on the line and you're being judged and
Speaker 3: not having any sensibility of that. And I remember seeing
Speaker 3: this one photograph of you sitting next to your attorney,
Speaker 3: Jack Edmond, and you kind of look like one of
Speaker 3: those eighties magicians, you know, like your hair is not
Speaker 3: quite right. There's the lapels on your suit are kind
Speaker 3: of big. And I was like, this guy looks like
Speaker 3: a magician. I'm gonna run away from him. And I thought, man,
Speaker 3: Leo's got to read this. I wondered if you'd be offended.
Speaker 4: I did, And that's one of the definitely one of
Speaker 4: the places where I giggled and my wife asked, what
Speaker 4: is it? And I read it to him. Thank you
Speaker 4: for that bringing humor to a story that otherwise is
Speaker 4: extremely emotionally sad. For me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's not a lot of humor at all.
Speaker 4: Right, right, but you covered that really, really well. I
Speaker 4: think even listeners of the podcast need to read this book.
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this interview. I can't tell you
Speaker 1: how nice it was to be speaking to Leo in
Speaker 1: a studio instead of inside a prison. In the coming weeks,
Speaker 1: we'll be releasing more excerpts from the Bone Valley audiobook
Speaker 1: right here. Next week's excerpt will include some behind the
Speaker 1: scenes moments from our investigation into Jeremy Scott's early years,
Speaker 1: as well as background from one of the most talked
Speaker 1: about scenes from the podcast. And if you still can't
Speaker 1: get enough Bone Valley, the book is available in stores everywhere,
Speaker 1: and the audiobook version can be found wherever you download
Speaker 1: your audio books. Please see the show notes for details.
Speaker 1: Thanks very much for listening, and please keep any out
Speaker 1: for our next installment of Bone Valley. From the Mic
Speaker 1: to the Page. The next four excerpts to be released
Speaker 1: after this first one will be available ad free exclusively
Speaker 1: on Lava for Good, plus on Apple Podcasts.